Anne Heidemann & Melissa Isaac from the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan join us to share about Maawn Doobiigeng, a new classification system for the Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Library.
In 2019, The Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Libraries were awarded the IMLS National Leadership Grant to facilitate the creation of a new classification system by members of the community. As of April 2024, this new system, titled Maawn Doobiigeng (Gather Together), has been created and is being implemented into the libraries.
Heidemann and Isaac share about the process, from idea to implementation, and explain why this new system was imperative for accurately describing and providing access to Native Topics.
Date of interview: June 12, 2024
Hosts: LaRee Dominguez & Gene Iparraguirre
Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Libraries--Maawn Doobiigeng
Maawn Doobiigeng Press Release
Anne Heidemann & Melissa Isaac from the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan join us to share about Maawn Doobiigeng, a new classification system for the Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Library.
In 2019, The Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Libraries were awarded the IMLS National Leadership Grant to facilitate the creation of a new classification system by members of the community. As of April 2024, this new system, titled Maawn Doobiigeng (Gather Together), has been created and is being implemented into the libraries.
Heidemann and Isaac share about the process, from idea to implementation, and explain why this new system was imperative for accurately describing and providing access to Native Topics.
Date of interview: June 12, 2024
Hosts: LaRee Dominguez & Gene Iparraguirre
Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Libraries--Maawn Doobiigeng
Maawn Doobiigeng Press Release
[Intro Music Playing]
LaRee Dominguez:
Welcome to OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries, a podcast produced by the Oregon Library Association's Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Antiracism Committee. My name is LaRee Dominguez. My pronouns are she/her.
Gene Iparraguirre:
Hi, my name is Gene Iparraguirre. With us today is Anne Heidemann, serving as a Tribal librarian for the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, and Melissa Isaac, Maawn Doobiigeng development team member. Melissa, I will turn it over to you to further introduce yourself.
Melissa Isaac:
[Anishinaabemowin language being spoken]. My Anishinaabe name is Swan Woman, and I am Sturgeon Clan. I am a citizen of the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan. My professional title and the work that I do is [Anishinaabemowin language being spoken], which is also in my language, but that means protector of the young. And I serve that role in every capacity, not just my professional role.
Gene Iparraguirre:
So the icebreaker question is what books or books are you currently reading?
Melissa Isaac:
This is embarrassing. It's like letting somebody into your messy house to see what you're all about. I'll go first, because I actually just got really back into reading, because I've been an academic, academia my whole life. I'm a doctoral candidate at Central Michigan University, and I've read a ton of journals and research, and things like that. And so, this summer, I made a vow to myself that I was going to read more for just pleasure, but I didn't actually know what I liked.
And I had this conversation with Anne when we were meeting, during our meetings and I said, "I'm just going to go out on a limb and try some things." And so, I picked up, I think it's romantasy. So it's, right now, I just finished the ACOTAR series, which is A Court of Thorns and Rose, and I think there's five or six books in that series, by Sarah J. Moss, and I just finished it. And so, I'm going onto her next series, Throne of Glass, I think is what it's called. I just started that today.
LaRee Dominguez:
Oh, that's exciting. It's always fun to get to read what you want.
Melissa Isaac:
Oh, definitely. I didn't even know I was interested in that. And Anne was cracking up, she's like, "Wow, you really dug into that?" And I said, "I did. I didn't know I was going to enjoy it." I just went out on a limb and decided to try it.
Anne Heidemann:
I'm reading a book of short stories called, Even Greater Mistakes, by Charlie Jane Anders, who is an author that I really enjoy. She writes a lot of science fiction. And I don't know, I love to read before I go to sleep at night, and a short story is just a perfect little chunk before I fall asleep.
LaRee Dominguez:
Awesome. I like short stories too, especially for that. So our first question for you is can you provide an overview of your new classification system? What it is, how did the idea come up, and how does it work?
Anne Heidemann:
Sure. So that's a lot of questions. It is called Maawn Doobiigeng, and it is meaning gather together, which is what we do in the library. So the process was initiated by basically me working in this position as a settler and noticing, over the last 10-plus years that, really, the systems that we were using just weren't working very well for this community, Dewey Decimal System and Library of Congress Classification, in particular, just having a lot of built-in bias coming from the people who made them, like anything that's made by a human.
I said, "Well, how could we do it differently?" And recognizing that I, myself, I would just be recolonizing in a different way if I made something up. I was able to write, and we were granted, an IMLS National Leadership grant to engage the community in figuring out what should it look like? It's been a five-year process. Definitely, the pandemic slowed things down a bit, but it has turned out amazingly and even better than I could have ever imagined.
In the system, the group of community members that we had come together, they decided that the system itself should be based on the seven clans that are outlined in the Mishomis book, which is a widely used book in this community. And then the seven clans, as they are in the community, and Melissa can probably speak to this little bit more, each of those clans would have different responsibilities.
And so the subcategories that we have within the Maawn Doobiigeng system is they are correlated to those areas of responsibility. It is certainly a very specific system to this community, because it was created by this actual community, and other libraries may wish to do a similar process, and I would certainly encourage them to do so.
LaRee Dominguez:
Great, thank you. And I hope the rest of this podcast is very encouraging.
Melissa Isaac:
Yeah, I can add onto that as well. My role actually shifted throughout this project. I am the former education director, and the library system was one of the programs that I oversaw for the Tribal education system. Anne, just, she gets it. She has a way of systems thinking, which I am realizing not a lot of people have. I mean, also understanding her place of privilege in the systems that exist.
And one of the things that I wanted to do when I got into my position, my big vision was to indigenize everything that we could. Because, historically, for a lot of reasons, our systems within the tribe itself, the government, were framed with a lot of colonial ways of thinking. And so, I love the shift that is happening throughout the term that is used is Indian country. That's all of the land.
People are starting to realize, wait a minute, we have these values, we have these systems, and they are meaningful and they are powerful, and a lot of the things that are in place are an offshoot of our ways of being and knowing anyway. And so, just really reclaiming that, revitalizing that. And so that was it, that was the vision. And I thought, "I'm not going to micromanage people and say, 'Heres how you do it.'"
And so, when Anne said, "This is what I want to do. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't know who's going to be involved yet." I just, I really trusted her as a professional and a colleague, and somebody who's very knowledgeable about library systems. She taught me a lot about all of that. And so, I did. I trusted her and said, "Okay, let's do it then." So she did, and we got it, and we're like, "Now what?"
And so, then, as she said, the pandemic slowed a lot of that down. But, at the end of the day, the pandemic was supposed to happen throughout this process, because it required us to have to shift. We do have cultural thoughts about what the pandemic means and the things, the gifts that it did bring us. This is one of them. It contributed to what we developed here.
But then I moved on to a different organization in the middle of all of this transition and then was invited back. I was very honored by that, to be invited back to help contribute to this thing that we weren't exactly sure what it was going to look like. And so, then I was a participant in helping to a thought partner in putting this together. I just have a lot of accolades for Anne, for being able to think in a systems way, and then just all of the people from the community that came together to contribute their cultural knowledge. It was really a beautiful process.
Gene Iparraguirre:
That's great. How can Tribal libraries use traditional ways of knowing and being to break free of colonialist epistemology of existing library organizational systems that reinforce a damaging worldview? Can you discuss how this question guided your project?
Anne Heidemann:
Sure. So that was really the question that we were addressing with the IMLS National Leadership Grant application. And it was a question that I was asking myself and not being able to really answer while we were applying. Because, as Melissa said, I didn't know, no one knew what the outcome was going to be until we did the process. So generally, when you're writing a grant, you need to have very specific objectives and outputs and outcomes that you can identify for the granting agency. And I really just had to say, "We're going to do something."
So I really focused on, "What is the process?" And while I didn't know what the exact process would look like, and that was up to the group to figure out what that should look like, I was able to say, "We are going to approach this in the ways that are traditional for this community, and they will be able to tell us this is the process that it should take. These are how the decisions should be made."
And, really, it was just amazing to see that process and get to be a witness to that process happening. I do think that there are many ways that libraries could answer that question, but this is the way that this specific community answered it and, I think, in a beautiful way.
Melissa Isaac:
Yeah, just to add to that as well, when I think about this question, there's a couple of things that jump out to me. And the first is that how can we use traditional ways of knowing and being? We're not actually using them, we're reclaiming them and revitalizing systems that already existed.
When we first were entering this project, I think that we all were like, well, we're just normal people. We're not these scholared people. And we had to stop ourselves multiple times and say, "Wait, is that my colonized mindset talking? Because it's ingrained in all of us. How do I shift my thinking here?"
And really, if you would've asked us in the beginning, "What does this look like," we couldn't have fathomed what it would look like, because we didn't see the total value of the knowledge that we already carry. And so, then, it all just started coming together. And to me, I'm like, "Wow. Yeah, I did know all of this stuff. I guess I am an expert in what we're talking about here."
But I think that, the other thing is having and be able to share with us why they were damaging. Because I've never thought about how libraries could be damaging. You walk in and it's overwhelming, and that's just the way it is. And, so then once we had that conversation about why it's damaging, we're like, "Whoa. Wait, this can't go on anymore. We do have better ways of thinking and different places where we've gathered these teachings, these cultural teachings from our own people."
Just really sorting through that within ourselves, I think that a lot of us did a lot of healing, because this project was also healing work for all of the Indigenous people that were involved with it too. So it was the systems change part and understanding why that was damaging, but also really reclaiming and healing and understanding that our ways of being, knowing are powerful and leaving that for the people coming after us. Because, as Indigenous people, we don't just think about the here and the now, we look seven generations ahead for the ones coming after us.
But there was also a lot of traditional knowledge that our ancestors left. So we also have to look seven generations behind us. And so looking back, taking those teachings. And then thinking forward, what are we leaving for the ones coming after us? Everybody had that mindset. And it was a natural mindset when we came together that we just carry, and it's just the way it is and incorporated that into this project.
LaRee Dominguez:
That's awesome. And I love how you said reclaim and revitalize. That says a lot, and hopefully it gets people thinking in a different way. I think a lot of times people just get stuck on saying decolonization or something needs to be decolonized, but they don't stop and see that what the shift actually needs to be. Thank you. Thank you both for that. Do you envision a way that libraries can incorporate some parts of Maawn Doobiigeng without undermining the system?
Anne Heidemann:
Yes. I believe there are probably ways that we don't even think of yet that people could look at Maawn Doobiigeng and then do something with it. It's hard to even imagine, because those communities would need to have their own conversations and figure out what it means to them, and what is meaningful to them.
I do feel like we want to make sure that the system, as it has been created, is honored as a whole thing, as its own system. I wouldn't want someone to just pick and choose, "Oh, I like this, I like that," and take from it in that way. But I do think that there's a lot of opportunity out there. And again, I just wouldn't, I couldn't presume personally to say what that would look like for any particular community.
Melissa Isaac:
I would agree that the content of, I guess it'd be a system, the content of the system itself, that's sacred and traditional knowledge, and we took that to heart. Things were at a standstill during the process, and we all just looked at each other and said, "We know why this is happening. We need to do this the right way. We need to start in ceremony." And so we did.
We planned one of the meeting days, we went to our lodge and we did what we had to do. And it was very, a personal, very sacred knowledge moment, and came out of there, "Okay, hopefully the ideas will start flowing," which we knew they would, and they did. And we're like, "Whoa, why didn't we do this a long time ago?" Because sometimes, we just forget to do that or don't make time for it, because we get so caught up in the day to day and the deadlines, and all of the things that are pushing us along, but that part was necessary.
Those ceremonies, those sacred teachings, are going to differ from... I mean, even the individuals within the group, we all had our own ways of learning all of this information as we were growing up, but coming together and being able to have those conversations where we did challenge each other and come to a shared understanding, I think parts of the process, as far as communities are concerned, like, do you have ceremony? Do you have language speakers that you can talk to? Are there traditional knowledge-holders who are in your community, who can come together to have these conversations?
I think that part can be incorporated in other communities, as far as taking parts of the actual content of the system we created are revitalized, I don't know that it can actually be done. Every thought, every word, there's meaning behind it. And so, just fragmenting it is just unnatural to how we do things. And so, I wouldn't recommend just taking it and using it. If you have questions, how are you going to answer them? You're not going to be able to.
So other communities who are thinking about embarking on this, those are just some of the things that they should consider, because I would love to see different communities and their, have their own versions of something that's grounded, their ways, their ceremony, their languages. It can be done. They're just all going to look a little bit different.
Gene Iparraguirre:
Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. Because there's a lot of weight to the actions that youse are doing. Since the announcement of the new classification system, have you heard from other Tribal libraries about creating something similar in their organizations? If so, what advice have you given them?
Anne Heidemann:
Well, yes, we have. There is another tribe in the state who has reached out, and already set up an appointment to come and visit later this summer to look and see what we've gotten done so far. And so, the advice that I would think of is what Melissa was just saying, is that you need to gather your community, your people there, and see what it is that they think.
And I would say also, it is a huge project. We are reclassifying every single one of the 25,000-plus items in our collections, and that is a lot. The library staff consists of myself and two library assistants. So it's going to be a process that gets done as it gets done. I would encourage people not to be daunted by how overwhelming that could feel. I am a eternal optimist and I see it as a huge opportunity. I feel like it's just, so many positive things can come from doing a project like this. I would say look for those.
Melissa Isaac:
Yeah, I would echo what Anne said about bringing people together, and then also understanding that you can invite others into your community, but that would be up to them to do, to help guide the process. A lot of folks, for a lot of reasons, don't carry traditional knowledge, by no fault of their own. And so some communities, there's less of it than others.
But to seek other Tribal communities out in the process to help provide some guidance, that's one of the goals of this project is that it be a teaching tool so that people, there are a lot of folks who don't know their clans or what their responsibilities are. And so when they come in, they're going to know, these are seven clans, these are some of their responsibilities.
This is just scratching the surface on much deeper teachings, but you have to start somewhere. And so, just leaving them the knowledge that they can use to build their own identity is very powerful. And so, yeah, I think we can all help each other out. But to take this system and put it in your community, I don't know that would be quite fitting, depending on where the community is at, what they're learning, and what they're at in the process of reclaiming their identities.
LaRee Dominguez:
Yeah, that's important for everyone. And I think that you, by doing this, are giving all the rest of us a roadmap of how to go about this. Thank you. A next question, I'm sure that there have been many concerns with Dewey Decimal System and Library of Congress Classification systems. In the process of researching and implementing Maawn Doobiigeng, what did you find most alarming about the two older classification systems?
Anne Heidemann:
I mean, I know these systems inside and out. Melissa, do you want to speak to what you found through this process?
Melissa Isaac:
I sure can. I was going to say, I was the learner in all of this, because Anne is so knowledgeable about these systems. And hearing about the background of the creators of the Dewey Decimal System, or the creator of the Dewey Decimal System as far as all of the bad things. And even how, within libraries, we were, our stories and our teachings were classified as mythology, myths, and fairy tales. Just again, it's a thing that you don't often think about. You just know it is, because you are happy you actually found the book that you were looking for. And it doesn't really, for me anyway, didn't really have a giant impact, because I didn't stop to think about, "Wait a minute, why is ours here, but some aren't? And are classified as these other things?"
And so I think that the impact of this project, from that alone, that the shift alone, will really help people to see us as living, breathing people who are alive. Because, often, we've been historically treated as subhuman, and this is one of those things that contributed to that damaging narrative. And so, we understood, just even from that piece alone, what an impact this could have and why we were also passionate about changing it.
As I mentioned before, you have to learn about those other systems to understand, "Wait a minute, that's not right. That's harmful." And so changing that and shifting it for not just ourselves, but the ones coming after us is, it's historic. It's a big deal and very happy to be a part of it.
LaRee Dominguez:
It is, and I'm just going to jump in there. And since it was created, it's been a difficult and hurtful thing for a lot of peoples that, you go to find something about yourself or your community, and it's just ridiculous how they've been categorized and that it hasn't, that there's such a fight to update those things within the Library of Congress. So that makes this project and programs so much more important. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead, Anne.
Anne Heidemann:
Oh, not at all. You were just hitting on what I was going to say. Which is that, I have followed with interest and been involved in some small, little grassroots efforts to work on changing different library of Congress subject headings and that type of thing, and working with people who were employed by the folks who make changes to Dewey Decimal System's official records. And it is so, so slow and frustrating.
And I think that's part of what inspired me also to write this grant was that I was like, "You know what? We can just do things locally." And then we are part of a shared library catalog system with other local libraries, and then we also share on the statewide level with our statewide interlibrary loan system.
And so, even whatever local things that we could change, in terms of subject headings and things like that, they will ripple out and other people will be able to see them when they look for an item in the catalog or whatever, even if they aren't right here with us. And I feel like that is how change can happen more timely.
Gene Iparraguirre:
Yeah, I think there's a whole thing about change always takes a while and people always have it be patient with it. It's coming, but also, if you can just run with it and do something else, and get that going already, that's really great. That's fantastic. It's phenomenal. How did you inform the community of this idea of applying for the grant and include community members in the actual work of creating a new system?
Anne Heidemann:
So that is something that I gave a lot of thought to. Because, again, I was like maybe the conduit for the grant getting written and applied for, but I don't want to be running the show in any way. When I was doing the grant writing, Melissa, as she had mentioned, she was my supervisor. And so, I invited her and several other people from the community to be part of a core group that would guide this process.
So then that group, once we were awarded the grant, we said, okay, the grant also included money to hire a facilitator, someone from the community to run the process, again so that it wouldn't be me. But then also, that core group, we sat down and we said, "Okay, who in the community is invested in the libraries and invested in revitalizing the language and has cultural knowledge? Who are those people who represents different departments and organizations and roles in the community?
And we made a list of people and then sent personal invitations to them to say, "We're going to do this big project. We don't know exactly what it's going to be, but we would love for you to be involved." We had a wonderful response. And the group that ended up working on this, Melissa had pointed this out in one particular meeting, but walking in the room and seeing the elders who were sitting at the table and just the wealth of knowledge was overwhelming. It was just amazing.
After we got the group going, then we did do more informing of the general community that, "This is a project we're working on. If you have input, please share it with us." Once the system was complete, we issued a press release through the tribes PR office. And we have a bunch of different posters and other brochures, and things like that, that people can pick up in the libraries or access on the library website. We've been trying to communicate as much as is appropriate throughout the process. It seems to have worked pretty well I think.
Melissa Isaac:
I would say that the communication had to be very strategic and planned out as well. As I mentioned before, I think a lot of Indigenous folks, or people of color, in general, feel somewhat disenfranchised from library systems. And just, we sent out the stuff like, "Oh, well, what's wrong with it?" Nobody really stopped to think or had ever stopped to think why it was problematic or why it needed to be updated or changed in the first place.
And so bringing those people together to do the shared learning, I think, was very valuable, because then it created some of that buy-in for the community, like, "No, this isn't right. This is wrong. We're perpetuating harm. We're continuing this legacy of really terrible thinking and ways of, that's just not what we're about." And so the learning happened there.
And then instead of it just happening overnight, a series of experts came in from all over the place, "Here's the work we've done. Here's what..." I forget what the name of them are, traditional knowledge labels, and I believe in Australia or New Zealand or something. "This is..."
And the more we started putting those pieces together, the more people started to understand, "Yeah, we do have our own ways of organizing information, and yes, this is ground in our ways of understanding things and feels more natural than that disenfranchised feeling that we would often feel going into library systems. And so, I think in addition to Anne and the person who is carrying out the facilitator, picking certain people that would be invested in it and knew it would be important, I think, was that little ripple effect she talked about.
Instead of going for this big slam dunk on a national level or whatever, let's do this locally. And that's where the heart of impact really is at the end of the day. And I would say that, what do we call it, the moccasin telegraph word? We talked to our families, we talked to our cousins, we talked to the neighbors. We are a small community at gatherings. And just that alone is more powerful than any blasted email, like a email blast could do. The impact of it was very grassroots and very effective.
LaRee Dominguez:
I'm glad you brought that up, Melissa. You hear so many important updates, not only for the tribe, but within the community when you see somebody at dinner, at the rec center. I love that. What has been the overall response from the community and, in particular, the youth? And also, has the switch from using the old classification system to the new one been easy or challenging?
Melissa Isaac: I would say that if there was any learned issues from going through this process, it would have been our response. And I think it's because we, I didn't, and maybe others did, I knew it was going to be big. I'm like, "When this gets told..." I couldn't wait for people to know, I can't wait for there to be a press release. I'm like everyone to know about this beautiful work, but I didn't actually think about the next step.
And okay, so what are we going to do when folks start wanting to know more and to learn more? And who's responsible for that? And I would say that had we anticipated the impact that this would have on people and their interest in it, that we may have been more prepared with a response at that point. So it's a good problem. It's not at all a bad problem to have, but I would say that the response has been great, it's been overwhelming, it's been positive.
As far as youth are concerned, and we're pretty big social media following of young people that are in our community. And I would say the excitement from them is they get it. And compared to people my age and older who are like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, that's cool," but they actually understand, "Whoa, we are reclaiming stuff here and in a real way." And they're curious about it.
They're asking about a ribbon cutting even. "When are you going to have a ribbon cutting so we can come and see stuff?" And they just, they want to, they heard about it, now they want to see it. And they're understanding and patient as well. Because Anne mentioned there's thousands of things to reclassify, and so it'll take some time, but they're patient and willing to wait. But they're very excited about seeing it and being able to use it.
LaRee Dominguez:
I love how excited the kids get-
Gene Iparraguirre:
Yeah, the youth. The youth-
LaRee Dominguez:
... over these things. Yeah.
Anne Heidemann:
Indeed.
Gene Iparraguirre:
... They're get very excited and passionate about these things more than anything else. And that's really great that the new, upcoming future essentially gets really excited about reformatting stuff and changing what everyone is used to and not being so complacent with it. And it's just, I don't know, just sparks a lot of joy in me, and it's really uplifting to see the trajectory of it going.
Anne Heidemann:
Absolutely. And in the libraries, when people see the books that have been reclassified, the spine labels are beautiful. How often can you say that? One thing that we haven't really talked about is that we did engage a local artist to do artwork for the spine labels for the seven clans.
So not only is the system all in the language, which means that it's not a weird code that you have to figure out, of a series of letters and numbers that are meaningless on their own unless you know what the system is, it's in the language. Which not everybody knows the language, but as Melissa said, the system itself is a teaching tool, so you learn the language as you use it.
But there are also these beautiful graphics, or artwork pieces, that correspond to each clan. So when you're looking at the books, you're seeing that culture right there on the book. That has really sparked a lot of excitement as well, I think.
LaRee Dominguez:
I saw a poster with the different clans, and is that the artwork?
Anne Heidemann:
Yes, that's correct. We have it on our website, and I probably shared it on the press release as well.
LaRee Dominguez:
Yeah, we will make sure that the website is added to the podcast information so that our listeners can check it out themselves.
Anne Heidemann:
Yeah, it's just beautiful.
Gene Iparraguirre:
Will you please talk about how the Maawn Doobiigeng materials by the seven original clans, both by the clans and the types of knowledge traditionally shared in books and libraries?
Melissa Isaac:
Yeah. I can start there and then, Anne, if I miss anything, please feel free to add. So there's a lot of different ways this could've went. And I really like the contributions of one of the team members, her name is Wanae Wassi, and she, in her mind, was thinking, "We're sitting with our ancestors in our lodges and just out of nowhere this truck of books came in and they just dumped it off at the door, and we had to bring it in, because we knew that it was important information. What would we do with it? How would we go about organizing that?"
To me, that really prompted us to really think in a more Indigenous way about yeah, if we were sitting in our lodges, what would that look like? How would we start doing that? And so, we started talking about responsibility and how we have responsibility as knowledge-keepers in different Anishinaabe tribes, very specific roles.
And then that further led to the conversation about responsibilities and roles. How do we know what our responsibilities and roles are to community? And while we know that because of what our clans are, well, there's a lot of, I'll call them major clans that have a lot of sub-clans. And so we thought, "Well, which ones are we going to use? There's a whole bunch of them."
And so we really had to have these really deep conversations about how far are we going to go into the clan system to be able to do this the way that it needs to be done? And so, those conversations led to us using the seven original clans. And underneath those are actual sub-clans as well. So this is just scratching the surface. And so what is our understanding of roles and responsibilities of those seven original clans?
And as Ann mentioned, we pulled in the Mishomis book and other teachings from other elders that we learned from and know, as well as the elders that were present, and really had a discussion about making sure, what will serve the purpose of what we're trying to do here and how much do we, how far do we go before we're giving away too much? Those sacred teachings and those sacred knowledges need to stay sacred.
And so I was very pleased with the group that was present, because we did everything the way we're supposed to. We consulted our elders, we talked to our language speakers, we talked to our spiritual knowledge-keepers, and really had a thoughtful discussion where we landed on those seven clans.
And then broke down, "Okay, here's what they're known for, here's what they're responsible for," and then went from there. And so, that's how we landed on the clan system to begin with, was trying to figure out which way are we going to go? Because we have a lot of ways that we carry traditional knowledge, but we felt that was the most appropriate way.
Anne Heidemann:
And that's a great point that I don't think we have really talked about is, that when I came to this group or when we all came to this group, and said, "Here's what we want to accomplish. We want to organize the libraries in a way that is good for this community." We didn't say, "And you have to come up with a new system." We said, "Here are a bunch of existing systems. There's a system called Brian Deer that is used at a bunch of libraries in Canada. We could use or adapt that. It's been adapted many times before."
But the group really came through those discussions to we need to do something that is meaningful here, specifically, and this is what that looks like. I think if you went into the process and said, "Yeah, we're going to make a whole new system. Get started." Where does anyone know how to start with that? So the process was really important.
LaRee Dominguez:
Yeah, very important. And I can imagine it being overwhelming. But, as you say, if you thought that at the beginning, everyone would still be staring at one another, I think. So how does your system stress the importance of recognizing Indigenous authors? I know librarians are, especially Indigenous librarians and BIPOC are stressing this a lot. They're always trying to find ways to help people find books in their research, but point out this person is Indigenous, this person is not. So can you tell us how you've managed that? It's wonderful.
Melissa Isaac:
We had a long conversation about this part, because we were trying to figure out, not being librarians, and luckily, Anne was there to assist, but we were talking about what do we mean, how do we privilege this community in this system? In this community, we are Anishinaabeg, and that's a very specific, it's not Plains tribe, it's not a Southwest tribe. It's tribes that...
And traditionally, they're, our ancestral homelands are in the Great Lakes area, but specifically for Saginaw, Chippewa Indian tribe, how do we privilege this classification system and Anishinaabe authors? And so, through those conversations, another point that I want to make too is, we had people show up a lot and then fall off a little bit, and then come back a little bit.
And then everybody has lives, right, everybody is going through something different, but we didn't kick them off the group or anything like that. It was be here when you can and contribute what you can, and we'll meet you where you're at. Which was another beautiful part of that process. And so, some of the folks that were early on in the discussions, that had other life events come up, their input always came around somehow, some way, and we didn't plan it that way.
And so, when we're coming up with this, how do we privilege Anishinaabe authors, non-Anishinaabe authors? Are they different? Is it all just lumped together? How do we do this if they're Indigenous, but they're not from here? And early on in that conversation, we had a elder who, Dr. Gordon Henry, he came up with these terms that he said, "Here's a way we could do this." And very early on, it didn't make a lot of sense to us, because we weren't there yet, but he was very wise in his input and just put it out there. And so we were mulling it over.
I'm like, "Wait a minute, what did Dr. Henry say when he had those three things?" And we pulled out that information and it just, it was the puzzle piece. It fit perfectly. And so, the way that we have our authors categorized, or framed, or whatever that term is... Oh, Anne, you're going to have to help me out with what those three are. I don't have them in front of me.
Anne Heidemann:
Sure, absolutely. No problem. So there would be Anishinaabe authors?
Melissa Isaac:
Yeah, the Anishinaabe authors are the ones who identify as being Dawa, Ojibwe, or Bodewatami. And so, if the authors identify as any of those tribes, then they're going to be classified as Anishinaabe.
Anne Heidemann:
And then we have Mayagi-Anishinaabe.
Melissa Isaac:
Which are people who are related to us, which would be Indigenous authors, broadly, who are not of those three tribes that I just named. So they may identify as Indigenous. That's the category that they are going to be in.
Anne Heidemann:
And then we have Kwey Anishinaabe Aosiwak.
Melissa Isaac:
Which means you don't identify as Indigenous at all. And so, we also knew that it was important for people to know that, for them to see themselves in the library. So we came up with these really cool labels on the books that will identify them with illustration. So we went and said, "Okay, if they're Anishinaabe author, what is something that is very specific to Anishinaabe culture? And of course, we start talking about food. I don't know how that happened. We love food.
We're like, oh, well, the whole reason for our migration story was we were looking for the food that grows on water, manoomin. And manoomin is wild rice. And so, we were like, "Yeah, let's use wild rice now. Now what other kind of food can we think of for the others?" And so, then we started thinking about, "Well, what's universal to Indigenous people? Is there something that is universal to all Indigenous people?" And so we're trying to figure that out. And it's corn.
Corn isn't specific to all Indigenous people. We're like, let's use that for this other classification. And then we're trying to figure, "Okay, what if you're not Indigenous?" We were thinking specifically colonization and where most settlers and colonizers came from, what part of the world? When we had a big conversation about that. But then we found out that the turnip was what is Indigenous to that, to where that part of the world is at. And so we're like, "Well, then let's use a turnip." And so that's on the label.
You'll see manoomin, or wild rice, if it's Anishinaabe author. You're going to see corn if it's an Indigenous-identifying person. Doesn't matter what part of the world they're from. If they identify as Indigenous, that's what you're going to see there. And then if you're not, then you're going to see a turnip. And so that was his, taking his philosophy and thought, and putting a picture with it, so that people could see it and identify it.
LaRee Dominguez:
Is there anything else either of you would like to share?
Anne Heidemann:
I just feel very grateful that I got to be part of this process, and I'm continuing to get to be part of it, as I am reclassifying items and helping people find them in the libraries. It's really exciting work. And again, I'm just, I'm always honored to be serving this community and getting to do this cool stuff.
LaRee Dominguez:
Yeah, that sounds like an amazing chore to do. That's just, would be awesome to be able to do that, and actually have it... To me, actually seeing the labels on the books and seeing everything reorganized, I would probably cry when I walked into the library.
Anne Heidemann:
Well, it is very beautiful, I will tell you. It is awesome.
LaRee Dominguez:
That's amazing. I'm hoping you will share some photos with us.
Anne Heidemann:
Oh, I'd be happy to.
LaRee Dominguez:
That would be great.
Melissa Isaac:
Yeah, I think one thing that we didn't really touch on was the significance of the words that we used in our language that don't necessarily translate exactly, but can be inclusive of. And one of those, we were talking about things that are sacred. We were put in mythology before, things that are fairy tales. What does that mean in our language and how do we talk about those stories that are true, that we know to be true?
And I know that in English, you call it fiction and nonfiction, but in our language it goes beyond that. And so we came up with these silver stickers that will also go on the book, and the silver ones are [foreign language 00:40:43], and those are sacred stories that we know to be true. And so, it's going to be beautiful to see that our creation stories and the things that we know to be true are going to be categorized as such and will have that silver sticker on there.
Without saying too much, silver is is very important part of our connection with the creator. And so, we decided to use silver for that. And then we decided to use copper for the [foreign language 00:41:10], which are stories that are embellished. And so we decided to use copper for that because of where we're from. We're from Michigan, and there's history.
We're from the land that is now known as Michigan. And so copper was really important to us, for a lot of reasons, coming from the earth, and then how we used it in a ceremonial way. And so, we landed on copper to be able to distinguish between those stories that are embellished and the ones that we know to be true.
Gene Iparraguirre:
I like how impactfully visual everything you've said-
LaRee Dominguez:
Yes.
Gene Iparraguirre:
... is. How descriptive and how everything is... It has its thorough purpose and reasoning, and it's tied to more than just what you're seeing. It's deeply rooted versus some other classification systems that, again, are just numbers and letters, which don't hold a whole lot of personal value. So seeing you talk about this, I'm just, I've never thought about this, and now I can't ever unsee it after seeing this. It's great.
Anne Heidemann:
That's just how I feel.
Gene Iparraguirre:
Yeah.
Anne Heidemann:
I've said a few times, but as I'm reclassifying things, I can really just feel my brain thinking in a different way and understanding the world in a different way. Which is so cool. How many people get to do that? I don't know, hopefully a lot once they use the system,
LaRee Dominguez:
I can only imagine how seeing this as it's progressing, the elders in the community and those that were involved, the members that were involved with this, it must just go to their souls that this is coming out. And for the young children, I'm thinking of preschoolers and babies that have been hearing their language, hopefully, here and there at least. But to be able to use a library from the beginning of the days that they will remember in a way that is them, it's just remarkable, and for what that will do for their children and grandchildren. It's very inspiring.
Thank you both so much for sharing all of this with us, and I'm sure we and the listeners will have all kinds of questions that come up later, but this has just been amazing. And all of the work that you have done, Anne and Melissa and the community coming together to do this is remarkable. And I hope that a lot of other tribes will be able to use this as a starting place so that they can assess what might be helpful for their communities.
Gene Iparraguirre:
Yeah. I also just want to say thank you. It's been very eye-opening and a lot of great information that I'm now going to just take with me and digest it slowly, and just start looking at my surroundings through a different scope, which is, it's great. Thank you so much.
Melissa Isaac:
Thank you for inviting us and helping us to get the word out so that people can also start to look at things in a different way. I would say that I'm involved in a lot of things, but I would say that this is probably the most powerful piece of work that I've been involved in. I realize that my children, my grandchildren, and the ones coming after us, are going to have a much different experience when it comes to library systems than we did when we were struggling to get through them. And I just really am grateful for the opportunity.
[Voiceover]
OVERDUE: Weeding Out Oppression in Libraries would not be possible without the generous support from the Oregon Library Association and the State Library of Oregon, whose mission is to provide leadership and resources to continue growing vibrant library services for Oregonians.
[Voiceover]
We would like to take time to acknowledge historical injustices. We recognize Oregon was established as a white sanctuary state, with the intent to exclude African American and Black people on ancestral lands stolen from dispossessed indigenous peoples. We recognize and honor the members of federally recognized tribes and unrecognized tribes of Oregon.
We honor Native American ancestors, past, present, and future, whose land we still occupy. This acknowledgement aims to deconstruct false histories, correct the historical record, and disrupt genocidal practices by refocusing attention to the original people of the land we inhabit, the slave trade enforced labor that built this country and to the oppressive social systems interwoven into the fabric of our national and regional heritage. We ask that you take a moment to acknowledge and reflect as well.
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