Cliff Chiang is planning his next big thing: An interview about process, Paper Girls, and DC Comics

Award-winning comic artist, Cliff Chiang (Wonder Woman, Paper Girls) joins the show to talk about what it's like being in-between projects and gearing up for the next big thing. We also talk extensively about his creative process, influences and mentors, working in DC editorial, Paper Girls live-action show, how Catwoman: Lonely City came together, manga he's reading, and discuss the upcoming Vertigo relaunch.

Watch the unedited video version of this episode: HERE

Photo Credit: Luigi Novi. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:8.1.19CliffChiangByLuigiNovi1.jpg”

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Transcript

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Cliff Chiang is planning his next big thing: An interview about process, Paper Girls, and DC Comics - The Short Box Podcast Ep. 485

00:00
In this episode of The Short Box.  I would say the biggest impact for sure  has been  work with Brian K. Vaughn  on Paper Girls.  Working with him  has taught me a lot about writing  and how scripts work,  how stories work.  It's taught me a lot about  working with your collaborators.  know, so for Paper Girls to feel that freedom  was just so energizing and it reminded me to just like this is

00:29
what comics can be, you know, and for not for just the readers, but for myself as, you know, as part of my creative process, you know, that I can do something that feels natural and just go with my gut all the time.

00:46
intro music plays

01:09
Yo, Short Box Nation! Hello again, welcome back and thanks for pressing play today. If you're brand new,  welcome to the show. Nice to have you. I'm your host, Badr, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations.

01:25
About your favorite comics with the people that put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them, this is episode 485 and today we have Cliff Chiang on the podcast. He's a comic book artist known for his work on the Eisner award winning series Paper Girls, as well as the smash hit DC New 52 Wonder Woman series alongside Brian Azzarello. And in 2022, he wrote and drew the critically acclaimed Catwoman Lonely City for DC Comics. Prior to making a name as an illustrator, he worked in editorial at Disney Adventures Magazine and Vertigo and DC Comics.

01:55
So the goal is to talk to Cliff about all of that or as much as we can in this hour hour plus interview,  but we'll definitely be learning about what an award winning comic creator like himself does in between projects. So when he's not working on some big thing for DC or something, what does he do on his downtime in between the next project? We'll learn more about that this episode. But first I want to thank our two amazing sponsors starting with Gotham City Limit Comic Shop. It's my local comic shop, but it's also Jack Seville's best shop for comics, toys, collectibles and more.

02:24
And a big shout out to Collective Con, Northeast Florida's premier anime, comic book, and pop culture event. It's taking place here in Jackson, Florida on March 27th through the 29th. Get your tickets now. There's a link in the show notes.  Now, without further ado, let's welcome our guest of honor today, Short Box Nation. Let's welcome Cliff Chang to the show. What up, Cliff?  Hey, hey.  I'm good.  Well, I forgot how long that applause button is. But you deserve every single second of it. I'll fix that in post.

02:52
Cliff, I've been looking forward to chatting since big shout out to David Harper who introduced us at New York Comic Con. The timing was great because prior to New York Comic Con, I had bought this little book here, the DC Compact Comic. Oh, very nice. Wonder Woman, Blood and Guts, it collects, I think the first 10 issues of your New 52 Wonder Woman run alongside our Brian Azzarello. I'm about halfway through it and I've never felt more stupid for taking this long to read it. But.

03:20
I love this form factor, man. DC is killing it with the compact comics. It's my favorite thing. Yeah, it's really cool to see how people are responding to that format. think,  like manga, there's a really deep backlist.  And people love getting a lot of story in one book.  And  you can't beat it. Yeah.  I guess when you see initiatives like this and these things,  like a compact comic,

03:48
Do you ever miss  editing or being on that side or the fence of comics? Not really. think, you know, there's stuff that I learned from editing  about story, about, you know, putting a book together, just kind of the nuts and bolts of it. But I don't miss really, you know, the higher level stuff. Not that I was involved with that, but just even being, you know, connecting with it on any level. Like, I don't want to have to make decisions about marketing and  stuff like that. I really just want to focus on  drawing and making a book.

04:18
In preparation for this interview, came across a uh relatively recent news article. I think this is making its rounds. And that's the news of Vertigo,  the new relaunch for Vertigo happening  later this year. I think the plan is that they're going to uh showcase a couple of previews of the new Vertigo titles within the DC Absolute Universe titles.  I wanted to ask,  as a  former editor for DC  Vertigo as well, I saw that  you are an assistant editor on titles like 100 Bullets, Transpo.

04:47
Transmopolitan and Books of Magic by Peter Gross. How,  how has the news  hit you? Like what are your thoughts on Vertigo coming back after, you know, what 20 plus years? Yeah, it's,  uh, you know, I was really sad when they kind of shuttered the line  and, uh, you know, because it meant a lot to me.  Um, Vertigo  started when I was,  uh, in college  and those were the books that brought me back into comics and made me kind of take the art form a little bit more seriously. And,

05:17
and kind of opened up the possibilities for what uh kind of comics you could, you know, were out there.  So uh Vertigo has always been really close to my heart and, you know, and then being able to work there uh later was such a, you know, was such an honor as well. So between the editorial time and then working there, you know, doing books like Human Target, uh you know,  you know, but Where the Creeper, it was...

05:46
Vertigo means a lot to me.  I was really sad when they  stopped publishing books under the Vertigo banner. uh And the news that they're bringing it back is great.  And Chris Conroy, who was my editor when I was at DC, him leading  this department  is great news.  seeing some of the books that are coming out,  hearing some of their plans, uh it really feels like they're

06:16
they're coming out strong and they know what vertigo,  like what kind of position vertigo takes in the market. The  kinds of books  and what vertigo means as an imprint, they really kind of focused on that.  Whereas perhaps in the later years, people were starting to not really feel  a cohesive uh

06:46
feel to the line.  you know,  I'm really excited. gonna, you know, and I hope people really embrace it. It's time for,  you know, it's definitely, you know, overdue. uh You know, it's definitely time for more vertigo style storytelling. Yeah, for sure. I've looked at the  lineup of books. I mean, you know, one of my favorite writers out right now, Dennis Camp, he's got a title on here called Bleeding Hearts. I'm looking forward to Chris Condon and Jacob Phillips are doing another  title together. So very excited about this. You brought up Chris Conroy.

07:14
I think his role is executive editor at DC right now. He's overseeing the Absolute Line, Black Label, as well as the upcoming Vertigo. uh There's a quote here from a Pop Verse article he did that  makes me think about what you're saying about what Vertigo encompasses and what it means.  says, and Vertigo really is just for all the genres under the sun that we don't explore through the superheroes. It's for our crime, it's for our fantasy, and it's for horror.

07:38
And I think that's such a great summation of what Vertigo means. I think bringing it back now, I definitely feel like there's just a different energy around comic readers and fans, especially the ones that are already  flocking to DC, whether they be the absolute stuff or Black Label having this imprint, especially something that means  with the history that it has like Vertigo.  I think it's definitely a good time for it to come back. Yeah,  I'm very excited. And  I hope it does really well.

08:05
Cliff, for you,  how do you go from a promising assistant editor to one of the most in-demand freelance artists? What were the circumstances or motivation to make the switch from editorial to art? Yeah, when I started at DC as an assistant, I really wanted to draw comics, but didn't really have  the skills. They were just starting out, and it was just out of college. So I had a lot to learn. And my feeling was I didn't know if I was ever going to be able to draw comics.

08:35
But  I loved the form enough that  even if I wasn't drawing comics, I wanted to be involved with it somehow.  working uh in editorial was  where I figured I would be if I manage to break in as an artist.  After doing that for a few years, I realized  I  had learned a lot but needed to move on, needed to really  take a leap of faith  if I was going to become a full-time artist.

09:05
So, um you know, that's when, you know, I just went freelance completely, you know, because it's really hard to  start a new career when you're still working the old one. You know, there's none of ours in the day.  you know, drawing comics is kind of neporously  takes a long time.  So, you know, yeah, it just required me to kind of really commit, you know, to becoming  an artist and accepting, you know, in a lot of ways that that's what

09:33
I to be. I think when I was growing up, I didn't know what I wanted to do. It was not clear to me what my future job would be. I was never like, I know I wanted to be, I don't know, a major league baseball player or something. And so over the years, I thought I going to apply to law school, and I thought I was going to go there. I thought I was going to be a lawyer. so over the years, it's been the slow process of

10:02
kind of coming to terms with the fact that everything I loved was pushing me towards art  and that I was an artist.  And so finally, going freelance was kind of the it was the last  like branch I was holding on to, to  my old life.  And then after that, I  was free. So  I think psychologically, yeah, it let me  try new things  and accept like, go in this new direction.

10:32
Yeah. And I think, that's what makes your story intriguing to me is that we,  think there's plenty of examples of editor turned writer, but very few editors turned comic artists. I don't know if you can name one off the top of your head. I think, you you're definitely in like a small class. Yeah, there's a few, but yeah, there's not. And sometimes  then going back, you know, it's hard to find. Yeah. I want to talk more about your comic,  your comic origin story, but you brought up college.

11:01
And I don't know how many other people know this, but you graduated from Harvard. You had a joint degree in English, Lit, and Visual Arts. How did your education frame or support your work in comics? Is there any specific class you took that really felt like  helped  support, whether it be editorial or, say, uh being an illustrator?  Yeah. thought oh early when I was starting in

11:30
in school, I thought I was going to be a filmmaker. It was like early or mid-90s, early 90s. And so there's a lot of indie filmmakers. You had like Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino really just starting out to do their important stuff. it just felt like the interesting space to be in, to try. And so I was studying English lit and probably about

11:59
a year into it, realized I wasn't going to just do that. Like it felt too dry to me. And so I wanted to add, um you know, visual arts to it and started doing some filmmaking and documentary stuff.  That process uh was really cool, but it required so much collaboration um with other people.  And I found that, you know, because I could draw, that the idea of comics became more and more

12:29
appealing  because  you could control your vision a little bit better.  I think the last draw was when I was filming something and I had the light meter  calibrated wrong and everything came back too dark.  I was like, screw this. I'm just going to draw what I need to draw. I can't wait to develop film and have it come back like crap.  Probably about like

12:55
my second or third year, I started pivoting more towards illustration and printmaking. And  there was a class I took that was not really an art class in any way, but it was sort of like how to think about visuals, like what art means. uh And that class really opened my eyes to  how narrative can function even in  a single image. ah

13:24
The instructor was,  he wasn't a professor there. He's like somebody that they brought in to speak.  He's a visual artist named Douglas Blau. His medium is kind of curation and collecting images and putting them up on  gallery walls. So it'll have like  a wall just filled with 20 or 30 frames. And as you go through it, all frames of paintings that you've seen before, reproductions of stuff and just the...

13:52
the combination of them starts to inform your appreciation of each piece.  And so it doesn't quite tell a story, but  it has an effect  almost like a comic, where it's the accumulation of it  that really is the important uh thing.  that's really, he taught us  how to kind of look at an image and parse it almost like a sentence, just like what.

14:19
What's the context for this image? Where does it come from? And what does it mean? that really, and he gave us like cool stories to read. And it was a class that really helped me think about art as an artist, how I could control what I was saying and doing. Considering that, well, real quick, you said something I've heard.

14:46
echoed quite a few times,  interviewing other creators  about uh the medium of comics. uh And it being, I cannot recall who said this exactly. And I'm butchering the quote anyways. But  someone had said that comic books is like the most  laser focused version of a story or a project that you can deliver when it comes to versus like, say, a movie where so many hands are in the pot. There's so much.

15:13
just oversight and red tape and things like that versus a comic where, I mean, you're still working in a team, but it's nowhere near the same number of oversight and et cetera that goes into it. So you get a little more of a pure um version of that story. And if it comes from someone that's both doing the art and the writing, then it's like, you know, even more pure than that. So it's cool to hear you also echo that too.  What was the overall from your professors or the institution of Harvard or just like the student body? What was the attitude towards?

15:42
like comic books as a medium or art form? Like, was there any like, you know, turning your nose at it or was it like accepted as a legit thing, quote unquote? Yeah, I mean, I think there was some  skepticism, but not writing it off out of hand. um you know, which was good when you do uh dual concentration, they require that you do a thesis. And so, you know, I did mine on the role of illustration and can illustration function as literary criticism.

16:12
They had eyes on me, I guess, to make sure I didn't just run off and do something, I don't know, that didn't have any academic worth.  But it was never a point where like, no, you can't do this or that. they just wanted, they kept an eye on it.  I think, yeah, ultimately,  as artists, as instructors, they were um open to seeing where it would take me.

16:41
I guess I'd love to also know, uh going back a little bit, do you remember what your first conscious memory of comic books is? Do you remember the first comic you ever got or the one that made you a fan? Are there any  creators or artists uh early on that really inspired you? Yeah, mean, my first memory of comics is really tricky. I kind of feel like they were always around to some degree, but we didn't have a lot  in the house. uh

17:07
I think my brother had a few,  like an issue of Nova and like Machine Man. ah And I remember visiting  like a family friend's house and they had like an issue of Iron Man, just kind of sitting around, know, and it wasn't like a, it wasn't a very hoppin' party. like, remember  asking the kid, I was probably like eight or nine, you know, and like, and I was like, hey, can I have this, you know?

17:36
I wanted to just look at it and like draw while I was sitting there trying to kill time. And he thought I wanted to like own it. And so I had to clear that up with him. that's like one of my  earliest  memories. One, that comics are like valuable  in some way. You  weren't just going to kind of, even if it was kind of like a cheap pamphlet kind of thing, you weren't just going to let some kid run off with it.  And two, just

18:05
you know, the visuals were always so fascinating to me, just the energy of it. um I actually didn't get into comics regularly until my older brother started buying them on his own.  And this is probably near, this was like 84-ish, I think. um So it was about 10, you know, and then just started reading  things like John Burns, Fantastic Four, uh X-Men uh with  Paul Smith. uh

18:33
I remember specifically we took a road trip to Florida  from Jersey.  It's like a 20-something hour trip  broken up over a couple of days.  We were just starting to read comics, but the great thing was you could get them at 7-elevens and gas stations. Every time we pulled over,  we'd run in there to see if we could fill in X-Men 172 or whatever, whichever one we were missing.

19:03
And  that became like the scavenger hunt for this endless drive to Florida. um So yeah, that's when I started. I found that  there were characters that I liked, but even then it was following certain creators. So  I really loved Jon Bern's storytelling and found that whether it was Fantastic Four or Alpha Flight or the thing. um

19:31
that I wanted to read his books and there were others that I was less interested in. So after  certain people leave a book, then  I wasn't as into it, that kind of thing. So  I read comics for a few years and then  forgot about them for a while, really, not really uh following up with it. I think that's partly because things shifted to the direct market  after that.

19:57
I wasn't able to buy comics in town. I had to go to the mall, which was 20 minutes away, and that became a harder trip  to do on a regular basis.  So I wasn't reading regularly, but the stuff that I did, I was really drilling down hard on. um And then  it just became such a pain to get new comics too that I think I just forgot about them once I hit high school,  even though...

20:22
I mean,  every now and then I'd read a comic, but like it just wasn't a regular thing for me anymore, which is kind of surprising to me now.  so it took getting into college, having a little extra cash and having a bunch of comic stores in town in Cambridge.  were like at least three great shops  right there. So,  you know, that's when, you my eyes were open to like indie books.  And ah this is right  after.

20:51
I guess the image founders had started their stuff. So there was a lot more excitement in the comics world, too, that brought me back. And friends of mine were way into it and showed me Sin City and Spawn. And I was like, oh, OK, well, there's something else that's happening here. And then going to shops and seeing other crazy stuff that I'd missed and started just picking up.

21:18
things that were more to my taste.  I started reading Madman, Bone,  and then Love and Rockets.  so, yeah, those years in college, I really grew as a person, but my appreciation for comics really changed.  I'm glad you brought up uh Love and Rockets, because I meant to say thank you for inspiring me to read. uh This might come as a shock to a lot of folks. But the first Love and Rockets comic I've ever read  was just a couple of weeks ago.  Awesome.

21:47
You had, um there was a really good  article up on sketch. I think I'll be saying David Harper's name a lot this episode. So this one's dedicated to you, David. um But I think it was an article about like the five comics that made you.  I think, yeah,  Jeff Smith's Bone was on there  and uh Love and Rockets. And you had recommended a specific story arc,  the Death of Speedy. I don't even remember the full Death of Speedy. Yeah, the Death of Speedy. So um it was on Hoopla. I checked it out. I've been reading it these last couple of days along with this Wonder Woman.

22:17
And  I mean, I feel like my brain is rewired reading, you know, Love and Rockets. It's like, how can something  so deceptively simple, um like be so brilliant? Yeah, it's funny because yeah, I think David hadn't read any Love and Rockets either. And I think like with anything,  when there's, you know, a ton of issues or something, you don't know where to step into it. And there's a way in which it can feel like homework too, um you know, but.

22:47
Death of Speedy is great because I think it even though we're all used to kind of coming in in the middle of  an arc, right? And you kind of have to piece together what happened before and what happens afterwards and there are references to characters that you don't know but you know it just makes the world bigger than what you're reading on the page.  And Death of Speedy I think is a great uh intro for Jaime Hernandez's uh stories in Love and Rockets because it's very focused.

23:15
and it just takes place over  this one period of time. The narrative reminds me more of indie film than  anything else.  It's one of these  books that you just look at and you're like, wow, this feels cool. This is different from the other stuff I'm reading. It's so well done and it's very human. Yes, and it feels really lived in. feels like...

23:39
this world,  know, world, Love and Rockets world has been around so long, you know, there's creases to, you know, if it was a jacket, it's got creases and it fits just right.  And that's the vibe I get from it. And Love and Rockets much like Bone, and I'll admit to, I haven't read a lot of Bone, but these are stories, these are comics that I know. You just know they're good. If you've been around comics for as, you know, as long as I have, or as long as you have,  there's certain uh creators, uh titles that you just know via the... um

24:08
that are just like considered classics or through the zeitgeist, you know, like they are, you know, these things that everyone should read,  but  just making time sometimes for all these things. So um yeah, definitely. I definitely recommend if you're like me and you took a long time to check out Love and Rockets, you can start today and you'll thank yourself. um Cliff, I wanted to shift gears because when I reached out to you about setting up this interview,  you had mentioned that you didn't, you don't got much in the pipeline that you can announce just yet.

24:35
but you'd be interested in talking about gearing up for a new project and how that relates to past work. And I thought that was an interesting pitch for an interview because I'm so used to having creators come on to promote a new project, get folks driven to FOC orders and things like that.  So  I'm very curious to understand  what does gearing up for  a new project  mean for you? And especially considering you're in between projects. If I'm not mistaken,

25:04
Your last major project was Catwoman Lonely City. was 2021 is when it came out. And I mean, you did the entire thing, writing, drawing, lettering, I think even coloring as well. Have you been hibernating since then? Is it because that was such a massive undertaking? You needed, you know, four years to like recoup? Yeah, no, it definitely feels that way. After that was done, I was pretty burnt out. You know, it was just such a long story. I was.

25:33
I was feeling pretty good, um you know, heading into the last issue, but then  I had a family member who had a stroke and had to take care of them. And it just really, you know, of course it delayed everything, but it just made everything like that much harder.  And it's, you know, it's always hard to finish  a story too. um Everything, you know, that you hope, you know, all your expectations  for a book, you know, like  you're finally having to really make them happen and execute them. And so there's that.

26:03
pressure of finishing and sticking the landing. And so that was just like a really intense period. By the time I finished that, was like, I definitely needed to take a little bit of a break. I didn't want to jump into like a big project right afterwards. So in the years since that, since then, I've just kind of done issues here and there. And a ton of covers, like a ton of amazing covers. So, you know, so I worked on like a, the Ninja Turtles relaunch,

26:31
with Jason Aaron, so did an issue with that. I've done some Batman stuff uh here and there and covers, which are great to have uh and great to just kind of keep yourself busy too. But there's a point where I'm really bad at multitasking these days. I feel like maybe there's too much going on with  everything  in my life. uh I can really, I only feel good when I'm  focusing on one thing at a time.

27:00
because then it has all my attention and that feels like I'm doing my best on it.  And so I've had to kind of slowly back away from other commitments like doing more covers um or short things here and there just in order to kind of clear my head a little bit and get ready for  a new book. On the other hand, it's like  reading things,  taking in  other films and  other media just in order to kind of

27:30
I don't know, broaden and be inspired by other things that might not directly be, you know, what I'm working on, you know, is important. Cause you're a fan at the end of the day as well. imagine like you want to have time to enjoy art as much as, we appreciate, you you creating art. Yeah. Yeah. And you never know what's going to, you know, that spark too. you know, you do kind of, you know, there's, there's a lot of false starts where like, mate, this is

27:59
cool and then it turns out to not be what you're, you know, what you need  at that moment.  Are these like in between times also an opportunity for you to maybe experiment with your art or try something new or do you reserve that for a different, you know,  time or place? They should be.  I'm too lazy  where, know, I'm not,  you know,  what I did find was, you know, this past,  at the end of this last  year,

28:28
I did some pieces uh for fun to sell at New York Comic-Con and Baltimore.  Those were really liberating because I just found that like.

28:39
I know, I found the confidence in doing them that I didn't have. I've spent the last couple of years taking too much time  to draw things ah because I'm so used to paper girls being on a schedule and then you're kind of doing what you can do within a certain amount of time. Specifically for Catwoman, I was like, oh, what if I take a little bit more time and really kind of, you know, fine tune the drawing?  And  that became  my default for everything I was working on.

29:09
after that as well and I'm realizing like that's not really, it doesn't really look that different. It doesn't look that much better for the time that it takes. So now it's kind of relearning how to, don't know, fly by the seat of my pants a little bit more. A lot of not do super tight pencils and just go into, jump into my inks and have them be a little bit more organic and a little bit more.

29:39
I don't know, expressive uh and  immediate, you know, whereas, you know,  I think I was kind of just tightening up and  trying to make everything perfect when it was never going to be. And that's not even really what I want out of my work either. So I'm glad that you were talking about your process because I got to see it in action uh on YouTube. There's a there is a video on the I believe the Felix YouTube channel from 10 years ago where it is like three and a half minutes.

30:07
I don't know if it's  the studio you're in now, but it's you at the studio at your drawing board,  and you're drawing uh the Paper Girls crew. And you've got a binder  full of  clips of photos of bicycles. It looked like pages of pages of just bicycle clippings. And you're drawing  with pencil, which was kind of,  I guess maybe I was a little dumb about it, but I thought you were a little more, you leaned more towards digital.

30:35
So to see you having this pencil and you were drawing these really tight lines. And I'm like, wow, this is incredible. I'm like, oh, I'm really into this. And then you grab an eraser. And I'm like, oh, I don't see what he needs to erase. And you erase like 90 % of this drawing.  And I freaked out. I was like, what is he doing? And then you went in afterwards with  some really fancy ink pen.  And it just brought it to life. I'm like, oh my god, light bulb moment. That's how we get.

31:04
That's how he gets that signature, bulky, clean, expressive, bold line of his art. It was like  mind blowing to me. Is that the perfect, I guess, representation of where your style is at now or has that changed? I think, yeah, it's kind of,  yeah, that's where I've lived for a long time, I think. um I mean,  even when that video was taken, I had been mostly  drawing digitally.

31:32
But for the video, it wasn't going to be great to do it on the thing. But my process has been a lot of messy drawing. But then there's too much, when it's an actual page, there's too much graphite on the page. So I end up taking a kneaded eraser and lighten the whole thing up, just erasing most of it so that I just see the basic shapes of some of the details that I need. And for me,

32:02
uh You know, the inking is the drawing. know, all the pencil stuff is just preparation. Make sure, you know, right number of fingers,  proportions are right, you know,  composition. uh But, you know, the  actual, like so much of the art comes through  when with those inks and you can't really, or for me at least, it's not great if I nail all that stuff down. It ends up.

32:31
kind of killing the spontaneity of it.  I  think that's what I like to do.  And sometimes I'll work against that.  ultimately,  I'll come back to it. So  right now, I'm working on something and  rediscovering that process of like, don't  be too  focused.  You want to make sure that the

33:00
At every stage when you're drawing comic, you want to be aware of the things that are important. So when you're doing thumbnails, you want to work on composition. You don't want to work  on specific details.  then when you're tightening up, make sure your perspective is right. got the horizon line and everything.  But don't worry about  the eyeball.  are things that you want to keep.  Artists are always complaining that like,  oh, the sketch was great. But then when I did the finished thing, it sucked.

33:30
You know, like it just lost the energy. And so how do you keep that sketch energy is and the way to do it is to not  not redraw it, you know,  you got to work with it somehow and keep it.  So, ah yeah. And, you know, but that's something that. Is easy for me to  forget, you know, I think there's always a in me, there's kind of like two.  There's  two impulses biting it out, you know, which are, you know, like, yeah, make it expressive, make it.

33:59
feel lively, it,  give it some authenticity. And then the other part is like, is this well drawn?  Is this correct? uh That sort of thing.  it's always,  I think, a struggle between those two and trying to find  where you want to be on that uh continuum. What are some names that come to mind  of folks that may be served as

34:28
a as a mentor or like a bouncing board for ideas like is there anyone in the industry that you have like you go to for advice or like hey can you take a look at this and you know give me your perspective on you know this perspective yeah you know i mean there's um you know a bunch of us on the the felix comic art uh crew uh you know we have like a group chat going on people share what they're working on and it's really inspiring to see you know how other people work and the stuff that they're doing

34:57
Um, you know, and then, you know, people, a lot of it was, you know, the, the, studio mates, when we had a studio in Brooklyn, um, you know, it was really just on a daily basis, you're working next to somebody and you can always ask, Hey, what do you think of this? You know, uh, um, and just get another pair of eyes on something, you know, and that's really important, you know, now that I'm not in the studio and I'm working by myself, it, it does feel it's, it's isolating, you know, um, you know, so.

35:28
But just the other day,  I called up Trad Moore,  and he was in our studio for a few years,  just to catch up  and talk through a tricky monster  that I needed to design. And  it was great. It just reminded me how important it is to have feedback  and to be able to bounce ideas off of somebody.  And wasn't even like just having the conversation with him opened up

35:57
my thinking and I think I landed on the effect and stuff that I needed  and  just being able to run it past somebody too in the conversation was so helpful.  I love hearing how intentful you are  with your art because I think it really does show through and shine through in something like  Wonder Woman that I'm reading. But I can't help but think about how much I loved Catwoman Lonely City because it felt very intentional.

36:26
And  you mentioned being in Brooklyn. um We talked a little bit before we record. You're in Jersey now. But one thing I feel like  you almost don't get enough credit for is you draw some amazing  cityscapes. ah They feel, on the topic of feeling lived in, they feel lived in. They feel geometrically correct.  They really teleport you to the setting.  And I guess  seeing that you had all that reference material for just

36:55
Bicycles, mean dude, I'm that video like blew me away. I'm like you had I'm like that's why the bikes look so damn good in paper girls I guess what do you do with those type of like those binders? Do you have one specifically for like cityscapes or is it just that you just go outside and you're like, yeah No, that was this paper girls was a was a funny Taste where each girl had to have her own bike and the bike needed to kind of was a piece of story You know, so Erin's bike is kind of old and like she's a little too big for it

37:24
Um, now, you know, uh, whereas KJ's bike was like a fast, you know, more of a, like a 10 speed  and, uh you know, maybe it was like an older brother's,  uh, uh, that was  handed down to her, you know, so it's a much larger bike, uh, that sort of thing, you know, and, and BMX bike. Um, so I needed, you know, different angles of all those bikes and, and, you know, so

37:49
handy to go on eBay and  find someone selling a bike and then you just download all those pictures. That is a great cheat code. um But yeah, reference is important because  there are things that you don't think about um to add.  And that's what looking at all that reference  gives you.  It's a line to getting  more authentic stuff and things that you...  Not everything

38:19
come straight out of your head. And so you want to be inspired, and you want to take certain details.  I appreciate um what you're saying about intention, because it's like, if what I've learned is like, my drawing doesn't need to be precise, but my thought process needs to be precise. What I want out of an image needs to be clear.  And so everything needs to support that. So that's really what it's about. And for Catwoman, the city

38:48
is a huge  part of that book. For me,  in that book, Gotham City and New York are the same thing. And I wanted to see a Gotham City  that felt like New York to me in terms of the people and the buildings and everything. So it's not a Tim Burton gothic nightmare,  which is cool when you get that in a book. But  I wanted to go the other way and have a city that felt lived in that has people  color in it.

39:18
because that's a big part of the story as well. So I didn't want this kind of fake comic book city that  feels like it could be anywhere and doesn't really have a, where the city itself doesn't really have a personality.  One word I kept seeing uh online, you used to describe your work as confident and I think it's an absolutely accurate word. I want to continue to talk a little bit more about your process since we're here,  but I won't be asking the questions, which brings us

39:47
It's one of my favorite segments of the interview show. You're like, thank God. One of my favorite parts of doing interviews, it's my short box friends and family segment. It is where I reach out to a couple friends that you may or may not know and ask and have them submit some questions for you. And Cliff, I gotta say, you're pretty damn popular because I've got three voicemails to play you today. Some of you may know, some of you don't.

40:09
I'll start off with one that uh this will be introduction. This first voicemail is from the owner of my local comic shop. This is from Ben Kingsbury, the owner of Gotham City Limit. He had a question for you. Let's hear it. Hey, Cliff, Ben K. from Gotham City Limit, a comic shop down here in Sunny Jacksonville, Florida.  Thanks so much for taking some time to answer a question. I'll get right into it. My question has to do with a fan consumer side  of the comic industry.

40:39
So I know you've probably been influenced by many different things over your career,  but what's the most memorable fan interaction or letter or email you've ever gotten about any of your work?  And how has that interaction  changed the way you approach work moving forward? I'm gonna leave you here to answer. Thank you so much for what you do. We literally couldn't do it without you.  And remember, Short Box Nation,

41:07
We'll always take it to the limit. Peace.  Big shout outs to Ben. Love that guy.  Awesome.  Uh, yeah, you know, at first  I think,  um, when it comes to fan interactions, like when you, when you're starting out, really there's it's crickets, you know? Um, and what you're hungry for the most  is  not validation, but like feedback.  And, uh, I remember, you know, some early jobs where

41:37
you know, an issue comes out and you just don't hear anything about it. People don't have an opinion on it. And you're like, that's terrible. That's worse than having a bad opinion of it. At least, you you inspired someone to, you know, to post or say something negative at least, you know, but silence is the worst. And, but, you know, there was an issue of something that I did and someone on an old DC message board, you know, said, hey, this is, you know, this backup.

42:05
you know, was really great, you know, that this, you know, I wasn't sure  about this art at first, but then, like, as I read the story, I really came around to it and now I really love it. And that meant a lot to me. meant, you know, I was on the right track. Even if, like, there was something on the surface that didn't appeal to the reader, that there was something deeper in the storytelling, in the acting, in the, you know, that did resonate with them. So, you know, that was really important to me. And then I think

42:34
because it was such early days, like 2000 or whatever, I reached out to this fan and ended up conversing with them.  Every time a new thing of mine would come out, I would either let them know or I'd see them post about it.  Man, got to meet them finally at maybe it was HeroesCon or maybe it was an early New York show.  They gave me a comic that they had done.

43:02
uh, they had made, you know, and it wasn't like, you know, it just like a hand drawn thing, one of a kind stapled together, you know, and just kind of like a fun, uh um, fun little book, you know, that was made just for me. That's cool. What ended up happening is like, learned more about this person's life and like what comics means to them and that my comics then became a part of that. So,  you know, every decision means something and so make it meaningful and, and, and your readers will feel that. And that's

43:32
um And that becomes part of your  relationship with them. you're reaching through the page and communicating with somebody and that's really beautiful. That's like one of  the best things about comics. And that's why if I don't go  to a lot of shows after a while, I start to feel that distance. this year was great just kind of just going,  being with at Felix's booth and seeing all the excitement with like

44:02
I'd be sitting there signing and then Nick Dragan would have a line, and Daniel Warren Johnson would have a line. And just seeing the excitement around those books and then reminding myself, it's like, can make things that make people feel a certain way, that feel excited and that they engage with and that anyone gives something that I do any time out of their day is...

44:29
meaningful. It's important. And I need to  always be aware of that.  that creates a relationship with the fans. And  it's sort of like when you listen to a podcast and you feel like you get to know that person. Because you've heard their voice so much. And I'm sure this happens to you. You're at a convention and people come up to you and they've lived with you for hours.  It's an interesting, sometimes weird, parasocial

44:58
a uh relationship that you build. There's a few podcasts that I've literally been listening to since I started, so like 20 plus years.  And  I recently had a chance to like go to a live show for one of these podcasts. And it was weird. It was interesting for me to experience this thing that I have had other folks and listeners tell me about where it's like, this is really weird for me to be standing in front of you and you don't know me, but I feel like I know so much about you. And I think that is such a big honor when you can elicit.

45:27
an emotion out of someone based on something that you put your heart and soul into. um think, and then also like to especially for podcasting to me, the biggest honor, you know, downloads, listeners, all that shit aside. It's the biggest honor to me is being a part of someone's habit and routine. Like when they've built like, Hey, every Wednesday I tune in when you drop a new episode. It's like, that's awesome to hear. I want to go into our next  voicemail speaking about

45:57
Colleagues, think you'll appreciate this one a lot. So here we go.  Hey, Cliff, it's Heidi. I hope you're well.  I don't know if you know, but I've been going through my storage  and boy, I'm going through my Disney adventures boxes. Do you remember my Buzz Lightyear and my  toy bus? Because I still have all those and it's really stupid. ah Anyway, my question for you is, do you work on your ideas? Do you develop your ideas enough?

46:25
formal way or is it really just when your mind is  thinking about other things  and then suddenly a great idea comes to you?  What's your process? It's so hard.  Where do we get our ideas? Anyway, I hope you're well. Take care.  Enjoy the podcast. That was Heidi McDonald, world famous editor-in-chief of Comics Beat and host of the Publishers Weekly Podcast as well. Maybe for those that don't know the connection between Heidi and Cliff.

46:52
You both worked uh editorial during your time at Disney Adventure Magazine, right? Yeah, she hired me uh to assist uh and  she got me into the industry. uh it was funny because I think when I interviewed with her,  things were really in the toilet for the business.  And she was like, why do you want to be in comics? Because everything is horrible right now. People are losing their jobs, companies shutting down.

47:20
And I gave my honest, earnest answer. I  was like, because I love  the art form,  and whether or not it's doing well, I want to give it a shot. And she was like, all right, you're hired. But I did warn you.  That's fucking great. agree. But where ideas come from,  there are artists who keep sketchbooks, and they really always work on them.

47:50
drawing. like for me, that's not me. I think I've always held on too much, you know, like talking about before, just like having nice drawings and things like that. I tend to not explore in a place like that. I'll do a lot of digital sketches when I'm working on a page, but a lot of it is like I'm drawing when there's a script, when there's like a page in front of me that I need to do. And there's not a lot of like outside stuff.

48:20
But a lot of  ideas,  I kind of have an idea, it just takes time.  And  the ideas might not come right away, but you know when they're kind of half baked, you know, and that's not enough. And it takes  any number of things to just kind of push you and nudge you in the right direction. uh And sometimes it's something that comes out of left field and you're like, that's really great. I need  to do something like that. You  know, for Catwoman Lonely City, I  knew I wanted to do

48:50
Batman related book  and I knew that you know, I liked when superheroes kind of mash up with other genres So I was like, oh, well, maybe I should do a catwoman heist book. That makes a lot of sense, you know, and but it's not really enough there I was like, oh wait, this is catwoman. Just gotta break into the Batcave and I was like, okay, that's some that's a story but it  there's no  There's no hook there that pulls it together, you know uh That makes it different from any other story that would just exist

49:19
in  a monthly book.  And it doesn't represent a take  or a road to explore, and  a  road to explore other things. It didn't have a theme.  I just had a plot.  And I think it was thinking about, uh know, Darwin Cook had done Selena's  Big Score, right?

49:47
At the time, was thinking about it, was like, wow, that book was like 20 years ago. And I was like, what if, I was already thinking about characters being older, it's like, what if it's been 20 years since then? And now it's like, she's older. And then suddenly it all clicked into place where this is not, it's not just a high story, it's about what happens when superheroes get older. What happens specifically when this female superhero gets older?

50:14
and who's so active, but now her body's starting to fail her and people see her differently as kind of washed up. then everything at that point started to come,  click into place.  And you can't always force  those things. Sometimes it really just does take time  because  your first instinct is something that you've seen before and feels kind of basic. it does take, think, recognizing when it needs a little extra spice to it.

50:43
and then looking for it and trying to find  ways  to make it better. Oh, yeah. A great insight right there. All right. And then I've got one last voicemail that I think we'll both appreciate. We've said his name quite a few times already.  He's kind like the boogeyman. um If you say it three times fast, he'll appear. So let's hope that happens here. Here's our last voicemail. Yo, Cliff. It's David Harper from Sketch and Off panel. And I swear, I am not trying to make you feel old with this question.

51:11
but you've been doing this for a long time and in a number of different roles. You've been great at all of them, but if you had to highlight one, which project and which collaborator would you say influenced you the most going forward? As a note, your collaborator can be someone you edited to and sure, you can say more than one probably because Botter is a lot nicer than me. That's it. And what's up Botter? Have a good interview. Yo, big shout out to David, man. Yeah, wow. That's a great question. I mean, these questions have all been great. That one's really...

51:41
kind of tough because there's ways in which, yeah, I feel like I've learned so much from everybody that I've worked with, both in a editorial and  as a creator.  I  would say the biggest impact for sure has been  working with Brian Vaughn uh on Paper Girls. We had wanted to work together for the longest time.  We had done one issue of Swamp Thing Secret Files, which Heidi edited. um

52:11
way back when we both pretty much starting out in the industry. we got along really well, like on the page. I didn't actually really talk with him.  I just got the script and had to draw it. um But the pairing felt so natural. And he really enjoyed it as well. And we tried over the years to  do something together.  And just the timing never worked out. And so finally, when coming off of Wonder Woman, he

52:41
He emailed me because we check in yearly to see like where each where the other was was that and you know, said, hey, you know, to do some more books that image, you know, are you, you know, what do you think? And I was like, absolutely, you know. And and so it took us 15 years to actually get to paper girls. But doing working with him. You know, has taught me a lot about writing and how scripts work, how stories work. It's taught me a lot about.

53:09
working with your collaborators. um We both give each other a lot of space. um I think there's trust that we are each doing our best work.  I try to honor that in the script.  is intentional, right? Nothing is accidental. His word choice  will letter it and be like, oh, you know what? I want to change this one word.  And  all these decisions um seem minor.

53:38
But in total, as a sum total of it, is your creative voice. And so if you compromise on too many of them or have too many of them change, then it starts to not feel like you. And that's something that I've learned by working with Brian and seeing how he works. So for Paper Girls, to feel that freedom was just so energizing. And it reminded me, too, just like this is

54:06
what comics can be, you know, and for not for just the readers, but for myself as, you know, as part of my creative process, you know, that I can do something that feels natural and just go with my gut all the time.  What did the, the Amazon prime show do to that feeling? Did it enhance it or did it  with everything all said and done after the live action show? Like,  um, how did that impact, you know, your outlook on, that, you know, experience in that project? We're so lucky.

54:36
And I'm so grateful that the show happened. ah It allowed the story or the heart of the story that we told  to  go out to this wider audience that might not read comics and might inspire them to pick up the book and see what we did. The show,  of course, they had to adapt what we did. And we didn't want to.

55:05
you know, box them in, you know, so the idea was always, know, this is,  you know, this is a story, this is the comic that we made, take it, change what you need to change because, you know,  we need to give them the same freedom, you know, that we felt, uh you know, making the book, you know, and  so you just, you make sure that the best people are working on it and you let them do what they want to do because that's why you hired them.

55:32
And for us,  so we just stepped back and  unless they wanted to do something,  we just didn't want to step in unless they were like, oh, can we make them  like in their early  20s?  That kind of thing. We just wanted to squash anything that would be like completely against, but  it never happened.  And they were just such lovely people and  they ended up writing some really fantastic stuff and things that  I wish we'd

56:01
put in the book, um know, characters, new characters and  scenes that were just, you know, really, really fantastic. So it was really a blessing. to  be a part of that and then see it, you know,  it's such a, when you have a show, it's like, you have to raise like a small army  to make it.  And, you know, to be the genesis of that  was really humbling.  you know, and then, you know, the...

56:30
when the show came out, and I think the way it was embraced, I still think it's important. I think you need shows like that. I think you need shows that center young women as well, more importantly. And so I think it's a shame that they weren't able to do more. But I'm really proud of the work that they did on the show and really honored to be a part of it.

56:53
Oh yeah, as you should be. It sounds like you had a great experience. I know that isn't always the case when it comes to,  you know, Hollywood taking a comic book property and  giving the live action treatment. But I'm very happy to hear that you and Brian K. Vaughan had a very good relationship for that team. I want to piggyback off of uh David's uh question. ah And I want to  play a name game with you. I'm going to mention, I've got two names. These are colleagues and collaborators you've worked with. And I just want to just hear what comes to mind, whether it be a story, maybe something you learned from them.

57:22
Whatever comes to mind, how about Brian Azzarello? Yeah, Brian, I worked with,  as an assistant editor on 100 Bullets, right when, you know, pretty much when he was starting out, uh you know, so when he was working, when Axel Alonso was editing him and paired him up with Eduardo Riso for Johnny Double,  I was there when those pages came in, you know, and just marveled at, you know, Riso's work, still do. um

57:51
But I got to know both of them uh in the process. being able to work with him later as a peer  was just such a big, uh a lot to me.  And  as friends,  the easy kind of rapport that you can have when you're making a book  is really important. You just need to be able to just kind of come up with ideas and  push each other. um

58:20
Funnily enough, yeah, we didn't get to work together until we did Doctor 13, uh which was just a really wild uh book, ah kind of taking the piss out of event comics destroying the universe. ah But it was so much fun and it just became, was such a great working relationship that we had to keep doing stuff together. And now I'm so  glad that we were able to do Wonder Woman. We were supposed to do a Batman book.

58:49
So that's what I think of,  you know, if I have to think of one word  with  as it's Batman, because we're supposed to do a pulpy uh noir Batman. um And that kind of ended up,  those plans were part of like another  publishing initiative that DC was doing. And then when that fell apart, um we were going to continue with it. But then they had the idea for New 52.  And so that ended up getting shelved. So our noir Batman story never, ah probably will never be. um

59:19
made but  you know so that's kind of like you know my white whale with with brian  um with as but  uh but we we have worked on a batman one shot that hasn't been announced  um  and  uh it's it's not  uh it's not a pulpy batman with guns but  uh but it does feel like you know finally uh getting to scratch that itch hell yeah you know speaking about this project that haven't come to fruition uh

59:46
I think one of the most recent covers you did was for a Fantastic Four issue that came out like last month or a couple of months ago. it really stood out to me because I'm like,  don't know if I've seen a lot of like Cliff Chang artwork of Marvel characters, which led me down a rabbit hole that you've done a couple of other like, you know, uh mainly covers. Is there any, I guess, do you have any uh intention or want to do like a full fledged like Marvel project? Like, is there  one character that you would absolutely jump at the opportunity to do? Yeah, that's always a

01:00:16
uh A tricky question to answer. There's not a character that I would drop everything  to do, to work on. It's always kind of like, what's the story?  I found that  at this point, I've drawn enough of the big characters um either for myself or  commissions or whatnot, or  like at DC.  I don't think about, oh, I'd love to do a Superman story, although I haven't really done much Superman.

01:00:43
I  just tend not to think that way. It's just really,  what's the story? Who's the writer? And is it good?  Is that story good? Because that makes  all the art worth it. Yeah,  so with Marvel, I've just never had an opportunity to do anything interiors, but I've done some covers. Are there Marvel characters that I love reading? It's like, yeah, like X-Men and Spider-Man and all the big ones  and Machine Man. I could be a fan of anything if it's well done.

01:01:12
Yeah, you know and and  so but it's just never stars having a line uh Fair enough. All right, and then the the last name I want you to comment on  which I think this ties perfectly the  conversation about paper girl also Wonder Woman But what comes to mind when I say Matt Wilson who has been the colorist on paper girls and Wonder Woman I think you two are

01:01:36
I think he's like a per in my head, a perfect match for your artwork. mean, something about his color choices, how vibrant they are,  I think really lends itself really well to like your bold uh inking  and pencil. What comes to mind when you think of Matt Wilson?  Storytelling. ah I think Matt is so not only does he have like a great palette, ah but his coloring is always sensitive to the storytelling. It's always  really

01:02:04
solid on like what emotion does this panel need to do, what storytelling wise, what's important to pull out. um there's,  there are, you know, sometimes you just get comics that are colored in a very primary color way and, you know, Superman's blue and red and yellow, you know, and that's it, you know, like it's, it just, it's just functional, you know, in terms of getting

01:02:30
color on the page and everything is,  know,  steel is gray and, you know, and the sky is blue and, you know, it's just,  um, it might as well be like a, you know, like a kid's coloring book. And then, you know, and then just kind of eye dropper, you know, the most basic colors for things, grass is green, whatever. uh but. know, Matt has an understanding of color and depth, but you know, on top of that always keeps the storytelling and the script,  uh, in mind.

01:02:59
as well and that's what makes him so good. ah So you know I've learned so much working with Matt you know we started working together on Wonder Woman ah and then you know went on to Pip Girls and then you know just he's got such a huge range  and you know and can do so many different things but then you know he's also really easy to work with which is very rare  you know for someone who does this as you know such great work you know he's

01:03:30
You know, you know, he'll take notes. He'll understand, you know, he understands, you know, the things might need to change for whatever storytelling reason. And he's fast and he's kind of a unicorn, you know, where he's like, he's really good and he's fast and he's a really nice guy. Right. So those are the three things you're supposed to need in comics. Two out of three is all you need. And he's got all three. So, yeah, he's a unicorn.

01:04:00
is a rainbow unicorn.  And to that point, uh it's been years since I've read Paper Girl. So I mean, I don't remember all the details of the story. But one thing for damn sure that sticks out is the color choices of that book.  I mean,  I think I have a short box with Paper Girls among other, I think, like image books.  And, you know, full respect, they all pale comparison to how attention grabbing those covers for Paper Girl are. And I think, you know, a lot of that credit is

01:04:29
due to Matt Wilson's color choices, man. That dude, I'm convinced that if all of those paper girl cover, comics and single issues probably would work with this black light I have in this room. I haven't quite tested it yet, but I've got a hunch. All right, I want to get back to what you were saying about like this kind of in between time, in between projects and how this is like a perfect opportunity for you to like, you know, actually enjoy art and read and get caught up. What are you reading? And is there any new artists that

01:04:57
that have caught your attention. I was scrolling your Instagram, and I think the last post you made was showing some love to Jeffrey Allen Love, the artist of news from the fallout. So I was curious, like, what are you reading and what artists or creators have your attention right now? Yeah, lately I've been reading a lot of manga because I just wanted to see more of what's out there. I've always kind of read some

01:05:26
here and there, you know, and like the big names, ah you know, but, ah you know, wanted to get a better sense of like what, you know, what's out there, what's done well,  and  stylistically, you know, it's sort of like if you only read, you know, superhero comics, and you've only read, you know,  Jack Kirby stuff from, you know, the 60s, you know, then like,

01:05:50
or  you've just read Watchmen, like that's it.  Trying to figure out what's popular now and what are,  I think, manga being the juggernaut that it is,  I want to see what kind of lessons I could take from creatively and on the production side. um And so I've been reading a lot of stuff on Shonen Jump and the Viz  app. So.

01:06:19
you know, the things that are currently done to Don,  you know, or,  but really, like  the ones that have really knocked me on my ass lately have been the Taiyo Matsumoto comics, uh Sunny uh and  Tokyo these days.  Oh, Tokyo these days is great. Yeah, just unbelievable. mean, just  so  insider baseball with the manga uh industry.  But you know, I just love that it was just about

01:06:46
making comics, you know, and that you don't even really ever see  the manga that they make. It's just,  it could be about another industry in many ways, you know. um But Sunny and ah Tokyo these days both have just an incredible amount of humanity and restraint, uh as well as just really kind of knowing how to, you know, tug on your heartstrings and make moments that feel uh

01:07:15
that just really hit like a sledgehammer. Oh, yeah. Cliff, guess maybe in closing, when can folks expect an announcement from you? I know you can't share too many details, but I mean, is it leaning towards another publisher-based project or maybe something more indie-related? I guess what can folks hope to see from Cliff Chang this year, 2026? Well, hopefully that Batman story will come out this year.

01:07:44
I know they're trying to bank some more issues on it. uh As far as my own  stuff, I'm working on a creator-owned book now and hopefully get some news about it later this year.  Okay. Actually, I got one more question. What advice would you give to an aspiring creator that might be in between projects themselves? Like how can they maximize this time, whether it be, you know, artistically or business wise, like what would you say to the aspiring creators who are in between projects now?

01:08:14
looking for inspiration or the next thing? Yeah, that's really  tough. think when you're not working, uh can be hard to...  The stress of  needing to find another job and everything is pretty real and that can really hamper your creativity. um I always think it's good to work on things for yourself. ah And if you can find a...

01:08:43
It's important to finish things too. So if you can find a smaller project for yourself that you can do,  so don't start a 300 page epic, but  an eight page  thing as an exploration  if you've got the time um is a really good idea.  That's something hopefully that is more manageable uh and that is substantial enough that you can maybe show somebody later and they could turn into something or not.

01:09:11
Or a series of images to illustrations that you can do just to post and  experiment  with color.  finding different ways to approach your own work, I think, is good.  And especially if you're not needing to produce right at that moment.  That's good. To hold feedback.

01:09:38
All right, ladies and gents, this is the Short Box Podcast, and we just finished talking to Cliff Chang about just about everything. All What more could you want? We talked about Paper Girls. We talked about Wonder Woman. We talked about what it's like to be in between projects and what you can expect next. Here's what I'll do for you. All right. I'll have links to Cliff's Instagram. I'll have links to his website in the episode show notes in the description. Do yourself a favor. Go ahead and give him a follow to stay up to date with future announcements and what he's got going on as well. All right.

01:10:06
Cliff, this has been fantastic and when it is time to promote,  whether it be the Batman or the new creator-owned title, you are more than welcome to come back and pitch your wares, my friend.  Awesome, thank you.  There you have it. That's the show for this week. Thank you so much for listening. If you're feeling good about this episode, do me a favor. Leave a five-star rating and review on your favorite podcast app of choice. It's a small thing for you. It probably takes a minute to write some nice words, but would mean a lot to me.

01:10:33
If you enjoyed this episode, guarantee there's a hundreds more where this came from. You can find the short box on all podcast apps and YouTube where you watch the unedited video versions of these episodes and interviews. And I guess I should remind everyone that the short box podcast is part of the short box entertainment company. The podcast is hosted, produced and edited by yours truly, water Milligan.

01:10:53
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01:11:23
And I hope to count you among the Short Box Elite. Speaking of which, big shout out to everyone in the Short Box Patreon, including...  R.C. Gamet, B.J. Kicks, Blake Simone, Life Brumleaf, Bo Evers, Brian Brumleaf, Chad Lannenberger, Chris Hacker, Dave Wilson, David Morales, Generation Jaguar, Goncalo Fortes, Greg Lichthie, Henry Hernandez, Hershel, Hydrus96, issue number three Brad, Jay Sinner, Jeff Fremant, Jerome Cabanatan, John.

01:11:52
Jose Sepulveda, Justin McCoy, Corey Torgeson, Kyle Conway, Kyle Willis, Amanda Maron, Marissa Burton, Nick Wagner, Nick Underwood, Brian Isaacson, Steven Gamet, T-Mix, The Wait For It Podcast, Tony A. Uppie, Walter Gant, and last but not least, Warren Evans.  Hey, much love to all of you, but that's all I've got for this outro. If you're still listening, big shout outs to you. I appreciate it. I'll catch you next week with a brand new episode. In the meantime, take care of yourselves and continue to make mine and yours short box.

01:12:22
Peace!