Practicing Smart Conflict When Navigating a Family Law Case

Join us for our live stream as we sit down with ACC, CCP, Author of "Smart Conflict" and Founder of Oculus Inc, Kat Newport, to discuss how you can use smart conflict principles when navigating challenging dynamics during a family law case.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about how Kat can help you, you can visit her website at: https://www.smartconflictbook.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  0:31  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships are Pacific Cascade Legal. And today, I'm here with conflict togrowth navigator, change architect, and author, Kat Newport, to talk about practicing smart conflict when navigating a family law case. Hey, good morning, Kat. How you doing?

Kat Newport  0:54  
I'm doing really good. Steve, how are you? 

Steve Altishin  0:56  
I'm doing well. Before we get started on this topic, which is fascinating. I want you to just maybe talk about yourself a little bit, and how you kind of got to, to working on this kind of stuff? Because it's fascinating stuff.

Kat Newport  1:13  
Why do I voluntarily put myself in conflict? Yeah. Good. Work for a long time in corporate like a long, long time. I mean, I entered the corporate world when I was still in my teens. And unfortunately, my my conflict management skills were less than stellar, I think terrible would be a good term to use. And over the course of my career, they developed and I learned a lot of things the hard way. And I did some good things, though. But I did, I learned a lot of things the hard way. And closer to the end of my corporate career, I ended up doing org Dev and creating courses and information that would be helpful to my managers. And the most popular of those sessions was how to manage conflict in the workplace. So when I stepped out of corporate, knowing that conflicts remains a mystery, and how to manage healthy conflict remains a mystery to most folks. I figured to take all the hard won lessons and and apply that to conflict coaching, mediation, conflict, education, and writing my first book.

Steve Altishin  2:19  
I love it. This is this is great, because, you know, the conference room to the divorce courthouse are just a few steps. It feels like in terms of conflict. I agree with you. And really, I mean, folks going through, you know, divorces, I mean, they often find themselves in an overwhelming conflict. And whether they're married, separated, divorced or divorcing, the kids always react negatively to poorly managed conflict. That's, that's one of the things we hear all of the time and how to keep this bad. Conflict at a minimum. And they're you've been working with folks, like you said, and wrote a book, and you call it, I love this word, smart conflict. So let's start kind of start with talking a little bit about how you came to develop it, and how the smart conflict helps folks potentially in this situations of being in a divorce or co parenting conflict?

Kat Newport  3:29  
Smart conflict actually started out as sort of the the framework for the courses I've built and for the education I provide. So it was a way to formalize the concept into a really intellectual and easily digestible way to talk about a really emotional topic. Yeah. So really trying to put that in to the framework. And in divorce and work. I mean, where there are two people, you are going to have conflict period, and Dentons conflict is always relational. So when we talk about conflict in this context, we really have to pay attention to the relationships involved. And I love that you mentioned the children, that when you're in divorce, it's the relationship between you and your soon to be or ex partner. And that's the relationship we contend to focus on. But it's also the relationships around us, the extended families, the children that are also going to have to evolve as this partnership dissolves. So yeah, in a nutshell.

Steve Altishin  4:31  
I like that. I like that. So let's talk about before we get into and SMART stands for SMA RT, which I always love those. But before we get into like the individual letters, what kinds of things it can help solve. I think at one point you you said something like transforming disputes into growth opportunities. I mean, you know, there's things that that come out of it that were One of the goals coming out of going into this system of conflict management.

Kat Newport  5:08  
Very much, or I always equate conflict with creativity, as we sit here and evolve as two individuals together in this moment via conflict moment, but we are two individuals evolving either for good or for ill. However, that's going, we are creating something. So there's that that creativity, and if we can keep our eye on that growth potential, you know, what does this relationship look like after? How do I want to live my life? After what can I learn from this situation? What can we build out of this situation? How can we put our two ideas together to create something bigger and better and more profitable or fruitful for both of us?

Steve Altishin  5:48  
I like that, and you use the word situation, which happens to be the s in smart contracts. So let's start with that, you know, I think you put something next to that yhsy was like, what is upsetting you? So the situation, and how does that kind of fit into the smart conflict stuff?

Kat Newport  6:08  
What I found through all the years of dealing with conflict and human resource and union grievances and, and relationships and family relationships, is a lot of folks walk into conflict, not knowing what they're upset about. They're coming and going, I'm just really angry. So I'm gonna yell at Steve. That's it, not knowing why I want to yell at Steve not knowing why I'm angry. So really understanding the root of the situation comes into play. And I like to use the five why's? Well, I'm angry at Steve. Well, why is that? Well, Steve, talk to me in a way that I'm not comfortable with. Well, why does that upset you? Because I feel X and just go down those five why's to try and dig down to the root. A good example that comes up here is the story of the divorcing couple who's arguing over a slow cooker, the slow cooker they got on their wedding day. And it's a really knockdown, drag him out kind of fight, I want it you want it, I want it you want it, who actually uses a slow cooker these days, I don't know. This, this is the objects that they chose. And when you dug down through these five why's it was because the the crock pot actually represented family dinners. And the family that they were dissolving, that they would never be using it in the future was about that grief and loss associated with the dissolving of the units. And not necessarily that I must have this crock pot that that came in. So really understanding that situation, before you enter the room before you enter that conflict is super important. 

Steve Altishin  7:41  
Once you kind of figure that out, is it something that you say, okay, that's bad, or that's good, or work it as more of a neutral and just try to figure out where to go from there?

Kat Newport  7:58  
So once you know what the situation is, it's a little bit easier to try and figure out where you want to go with it. If you're going in just to to get the emotions off your chest and to feel better. Where's that actually going? Are you going to feel better forever? And is this really healthy for the relationship? If you have to co parent with this other individual? Is that going to be helpful? Is that how you want to live moving forward. So once you know the situation, it's a little bit easier to then kind of unpack the emotions that surround it, not labeling them as necessarily good or bad, but using those emotions as a signpost along the way, saying we need to pay attention to something.

Steve Altishin  8:39  
Yeah. The emotions that start to arise, how do you deal with those, that's one of the hardest things we have with our folks. You're thinking of things and you're getting emotional, and it sort of takes you over then makes you not be able to do anything.

Kat Newport  8:52  
Similarly, and that's leads us very nicely into the M of smart conflict, which is measure your emotions. So when we look at the emotions, and we think about emotions, emotions are like the pain receptors on our body. It tells us to pay attention to something and just like we don't want to live in pain. So if we put our hand on a hot stove, you move your hand, right, the pain is telling you to do something. Emotions are the same way. You know, I'm angry, I'm sad. Okay, so I'm sad. What do I need to do about this? This situation is making me sad. So how can I make that better? So that emotion is a signpost on the way? Understandably, emotions can be big, they can be really tough to manage sometimes. So this is where that self care and resiliency building comes into play. It's not your spouse soon to be ex spouse or spouse's job to make you feel better. How do you negotiate that? So is this talking it out with a neutral party, you know, not going to his mom or not going to her best friend to say all the things that you have to say We're talking about to a neutral party, you know, a therapist or a friend who doesn't know your spouse or someone outside of the situation. So you can really get into why you're feeling the way you're feeling. And how you want to move forward with that. For those of us who prefer to write things out and sort of get it all out, journaling, or voice recordings, or voice notes can sometimes be happy. I'm really angry today, because of all of these things. And this is how I feel. Sometimes getting a nod out, can be helpful. And I'm gonna sound like your mother here. But mind, body and heart care comes into play. So make sure you're engaging in exercise, you're getting as much sleep as you can, in a tough situation. Make sure you're eating right, you're spending time on joyful things, things you enjoyed you like riding your bike, do you like doing art, make sure you're taking care of that heart, body soul, while you're moving through it as well, understanding that it is a process, it's not necessarily going to be Oh, my emotions are good, because I journaled it out. It's that process, so you don't bring it into the conflict, and you can react or respond to the emotions in an effective way versus reacting to the anger and the heat in the moment.

Steve Altishin  11:12  
Well, I like that, because that is, it's almost, and I like the fact that you have different things because sometimes I will, this doesn't work. Yeah, and but different things for different people. And it also, it's like, if you don't do that, it feels like your motion is like your two o'clock in the morning, every night, and waking up. And that's where you're stuck. But these things can kind of help that candidate to, you know, like you said, sort of almost rationalize and be able to deal with them.

Kat Newport  11:47  
And it's a it's a way of processing. If you think of emotions as a wave on the ocean, and you're the surfer, you know, it's riding that wave knowing it's scary, and it can fall out from under you and you can fall off your board sometimes. But it's about riding that wave back into shore, that wave will not be there forever. And some of us can get really lost and I'm going to be angry, or I'm going to be sad forever. It's a wave, it will eventually end. And it's just how you stay on the boogie board, I guess.

Steve Altishin  12:18  
Everybody, everybody me, just has this first reaction. And rarely is that the best one but you say okay, I'm not going to do this. And then you do it. It's hard to get out of that vitual reaction to something, isn't it? 

Kat Newport  12:35  
Very much so and we've been sort of conditioned to I have this emotion, I have to deal with it now right now. Now now now. Pause button is not a bad thing. You know, hitting the pause button saying I'm really heated right now I'm just gonna go pour myself a cup of coffee and I'm gonna be back in like five minutes. Just taking that moment to step out of the situation for a cup of coffee, a glass of water, a walk around the block can give you enough time to let that wave subside a little bit to ride the curl and come a little bit closer to shore. So immediate relief of emotions is not always necessary. Take that time to process it.

Steve Altishin  13:18  
I like that. It can you think clearer if you do that. Just just like it's not one thing is the only thing you could think of I really liked that. I don't know if you Randy, Randy for this, but agenda. I've loved the term you used. You call it out mending agenda. Not amending, like changing but a mending agenda. And then you think about it that way. I just I really liked that term. And what do you mean by that, amending agenda?

Kat Newport  13:55  
When I say agenda, most people look at me and sort of tilt their head to side going, mm, agendas are bad. They're hidden things that are always you know, I never know about them. And I don't know if I'm being played. And you know, all of these things really come out when I say the word agenda. But you add the word mending before it. And it changes the context. My agenda here is not to get what I want from you at all costs. My agenda here is to mend our relationship moving forward, whatever that looks like. And if that means we never talk to each other again, so be it. But if we're raising children, we need to mend this relationship so we can move forward together to do that. So making sure you know what you want on the other end. And I'm not talking material things. It's not about the car. It's not about the house. It's not about the bank accounts. It's about what does this look like on the other side? What does the relationship look like with this other individual? What does this relationship look like with your children? What do you want that to be? So making sure you know how you Want to see this in the future gives you context in the moment. So if you're looking forward saying, I really want it to look like this, and in the moment, you're like, well, they just said something that really upset me, it's a little bit easier to say. But if I open my mouth now and say what I want to say, just to get the emotional relief, am I going to meet my agenda goals? Another unique feature of the agenda is that you share it with the other person. Yeah, it's not hidden, it's not hiding it, it's, I really want our relationship to look like this at the end, this is what I'm working towards, what's your agenda? It gives me an opportunity. 

Steve Altishin  15:37  
Yeah. And that's what I like it, you know, it gives the opportunity to listen. And, and to make the, you know, the agenda. A lot of times, it's just something that, you know, it's 12345, that you just slog through, and you just, you know, the goal is just to get to the agenda, and it doesn't focus like you do on what you want to solve. It's all about making it, you know, right, or making it better, which isn't just about you. And so I like how you bring the other person in, this is kind of where the other person sort of joins the smart, at least that the way I kind of felt. And now it's, there's two people and they're working together.

Kat Newport  16:28  
Exactly. And conflict is relational, you wouldn't be in conflict, if you didn't have another person there with you, you know?

Steve Altishin  16:40  
How do you agree to something without feeling you've lost something? It's like, sometimes, you know, it's your resolving conflict, but you don't give away the farm. I mean, that's not what you're trying to say in terms of this. But there's a real kind of a fine line there. 

Kat Newport  17:09  
Pretty much. So I was talking to someone the other day, and I gave them my definition of conflict is conflict is relational, and we're looking for forward momentum. And the first thing they said was, well, you're missing the aggressiveness of conflict. And I'm like, if you're aggressive, you're doing it wrong. You're in an unhealthy conflict. I'm talking healthy conflict here. So with healthy conflict, you have to know what your boundaries are. And when I say boundaries, I don't mean concrete walls topped with razor wire, I'm talking like living hedges between you and other people that are going to grow and evolve with you. So these are the things that I'm willing to negotiate on. But you know, I really can't do this, for example, you want to move to New York, I really can't move to New York, my entire family is in Kansas, I can't do that. This is a no go for me. But you know, we can arrange flights for the kids to go back and forth every six months, you get six months, and I give them six months, because I can't leave. But it gives us a spot to where we can start with that boundary to move forward. So I'm not giving up my family relations, to move to New York, and you're not giving up your dreams in New York to stay here with me in Kansas, we're finding a way forward, but you need to know what those boundaries are beforehand. And you need to know which ones are dropped dead boundaries, which ones are the reason why are top levels and which ones can grow and evolve?

Steve Altishin  18:37  
Yeah, and in sitting down do that intentionally. It really helps. Like you said, when you kind of get control of your emotion it all sorts of the locks the puzzle together.

Kat Newport  18:50  
Very much so and you are connecting your emotions to that agenda as well. I need my family. This is an emotional connection I require. So it takes the emotion puts it with my boundaries so that I now know where I stand, so that I can effectively negotiate. And a lot of folks when they're coming into conflict don't have this, which is why there's well, you're asking me to move to New York, oh my gosh, I can't move to New York. And then the brain kind of clicks over and goes, oh my gosh, if I move to New York, all these terrible things are gonna happen. So it creates that anxiousness and that anxiety along with it that you weren't really prepared for. So if you can get it out in advance and draw those lines, it definitely helps.

Steve Altishin  19:28  
And you mentioned several times conflict is relation. And so that's why I liked the R in your smart. And it's about relationships. And when you call future focused relationship, it's because you can get caught in a relationship thinking that can't ever change.

Kat Newport  19:49  
The definition of unhealthy conflict is a conflict with no momentum. You get stuck in the moment. She did this. He did that she He did this. He did that. We're stuck in this moment and unable to move forward. Yes, they did that and they did that. It is it is your product. It is your fact. But where do we want to be now that all of this has happened next week? So we're taking that relationship and projecting it into the future gives you something to move towards. So you don't get stuck in unhealthy conflict.

Steve Altishin  20:26  
Yeah, well, I love that. What can we do to keep our attention on the future? It's so easy to get, you know, you're doing it to get a pullback. But it's really important to try to keep that attention on the future in the midst of all of this.

Kat Newport  20:48  
Very much so. So the first thing I would suggest is use your emotions as a trigger for reflection. Why is this upsetting me so much in the moment? What is this trying to tell me, as opposed to getting lost in it and saying something you may regret. But let the emotion take over. So using that emotion as a point for reflection, we talked about pausing already, that can give you that space and time you need to reflect a little bit. And when you're in the height of the emotion in the moment, think about yourself in the future, and how you want to feel in the future, is venting whatever emotion you're feeling now, going to bring peace to your future self. Forget about the partner for a minute, is this going to bring peace to your future self as you move forward? Is being right right now worth giving up peace of mind next year?

Steve Altishin  21:48  
Yeah, that's so important. You know, for clients, so much on that, I want this, I want this. Now I want this little thing I just and forgetting. Okay, three years from now, five years from now, 20 years from now you got to sit with that other adult, on the bench watching your kids in a play or the game. So you've got to, like said, look forward. You also talk about prioritizing relationships. And I think that was fascinating. What do you mean by prioritize? It's not like I like my mom more than my dad.

Kat Newport  22:27  
It's prioritizing the relationships more than the event. It's prioritizing the relationships more than the house more than the bank account more than the boats more than whatever. Because when it comes right down to it, it's the relationships that carry you through life. So prioritize the relationships over other things. If we're looking at this in an employment environment, you need to prioritize working with Jimmy over, you know, making sure Jimmy doesn't get the promotion over me. Because you got to work with this guy next week. And it's very much the same. But you said that you're going to sit on the bench watching the game with his parents for X number of years in the future, perhaps forever, at least or forever. You've really got to prioritize that. How do you want that to feel? And how do you want your children to see you? Do you want them to see you snipping back and forth at one another or unable to sit on the same bleacher you've got to sit on opposite ends? Because you just can't stand the sight of each other? You know, how is that that? How do you prioritize that now, so it's good later?

Steve Altishin  23:30  
And later, at least in my mind, is it kind of flows to that time and place. It's about now, and it's about not now. And what do you kind of mean because you say time and place to optimize your outcome. So is it like, there's a right time and a wrong time to act?

Kat Newport  23:51  
Very much so and it's very situational dependent. What I like to kind of throw in here is I think never go to bed angry, you know that advice you get never go to bed angry, I think has ended more marriages than it has actually saved. If you if you don't have the emotional capacity to talk about something really heated right now, forcing me to stay awake when I am tired to have an emotional conversation with you is not going to end well for either of us. It's okay to hit pause as long as you come back to that conversation when you're both ready. It's like asking the boss for a raise right before you have to tell the board of directors you have a deficit this year. You don't ask for a race then because the outlook is probably not so great on the outcome. You know, it's about optimizing that, or making your points or trying to get people on your side and having that argument you really wish you had with your partner last year at the family reunion. You now have an audience you both have your egos on the line. Your reputations are at play here. Everybody's watching who's on whose side. This is not the best place for conflict. You're not going to get a good outcome and the relationship, the future of the relationship will be negatively impacted in that instance. So really considering when and how you bring things up is important. 

Steve Altishin  25:08  
Yep. I know of clients who, as they're dropping their kid off and they're closing the door they say, Oh! I want this. It's like really, now? We have to talk about this? But it also doesn't mean just keeping the status quo and kind of delaying your action.

Kat Newport  25:31  
This is not about conflict avoidance, this is not about put it on the shelf and forget it and just shove your emotions deep, deep down inside. This is about acknowledging that it's there, and you do need to have this difficult conversation. But you don't necessarily have to have it right now. And you don't necessarily have to have it in front of an audience. It's the intentionality of it.

Steve Altishin  25:53  
Yeah, like that. We are just busting through to 30 minutes. But one of the things that, you know, we do a lot of this talk in law is, you know, the factors involved that a judge considers for this. So we're used to hearing,  what factors should I consider when determining the right time and the right place?

Kat Newport  25:54  
There's two sides to this. There's your side, and then there's their side? Yeah. Are you emotionally ready and able to have this conversation? Do you have enough time to have this conversation right now? You're not dropping off the kid and running out the door? Do you have enough time? Does the other person have the emotional capacity to deal with it right now? So here's this empathy piece. It's not just about whether or not you're ready, I'm ready to have this conversation right now, Gosh, darn it, and you're going to have it. If I'm not ready for it, again, the outcomes not going to be great, I'm not going to be able to respond to you the way in, you probably need me to and the way I best represent myself. So again, watch, if you need an audience, do you really need to do it at the family reunion? Do you need a lawyer present? Is this a safety thing? Do you feel more comfortable with having a third party there, just to help keep things a little calmer, so that you know, you can push that that pause button, all of these things come into play, and is having you know, my lawyer, they're going to trigger my partner is that going to need their lawyer, there's this going to be you know, you really have to consider what you need and what they need and find that perfect time and place when you both have the reserves and you're able to move forward.

Steve Altishin  27:42  
I like that, I like that. You do all of this smart conflict, you've included the other side. Because, you know, a lot of conflict training seems to be all about what you're gonna do, and you do that, and this is for you. Just regardless of what's going on with the other person.

Kat Newport  28:07  
As a conflict educator myself, I find a lot of programs do focus on resolution, say this to get this response, say that to get that response, it's very narrow and very concentrated on the flash points. I like to think of conflict in three phases. The first one is mitigation. What can we do right now to stop conflicts from jumping up in the future? How can I manage my relationship now, to stop those flash points? Then you come to the resolution part? How do I resolve this conflict in the moment? And then the part that most people forget is the third part, which is restitution or restoration? How do I restore balance in this relationship? How do I restore health in this relationship after the conflict is over? So there's two other parts on either, you know, one on either side of conflict resolution that you do have to consider and it's all relationship based. 

Steve Altishin  29:03  
Yeah, that is a nugget right there. The idea that you're not just resolving your conflict and resolving their conflict, I mean, and then you change your relationship that way. I love that. I love that. But before we go, I do want to give you time to say something about and help someone with if they want to get a hold of you. How would they do that?

Kat Newport  29:26  
The easiest and best way to get a hold of me is through my website, which is www.smartconflictbook.com. You can see all my articles there, you can email me from there, you can book a consultation with me there. So best place is that and you can also hook up with me on LinkedIn.

Steve Altishin  29:42  
I love it. I love it. And thank you, having said that, for joining us today. I mean, the insight that you gave was clear, navigable and understandable. And those  are really valuable so thank you for for being here.

Kat Newport  30:01  
Thank you so much for having me, really appreciate it.

Steve Altishin  30:03  
I loved it. I also want to thank everyone else who tuned in today for joining us. If anyone has any questions on today's topic, you can actually post it here and we can also get you connected with Kat. And until next time everyone stay safe, stay happy, and have a great day.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.