Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 6 (Braving Rhythm)

Braving Rhythm

In the first of a series exploring different parameters of music, Jon and Haz delve into fascinating rhythms, mining the works of Gershwin, Stravinsky, Bartók, Reich and more. Along the way they discover mind-boggling Bulgarian folk patterns, why rhythm is so hard to teach, and why a road trip with Haz would always be educational.

Transcript

Braving rhythm

Transcript

JJ

Well hello everybody and welcome to braving rhythm, is how I'm gonna put it today.

Haz

Ooh, we're branching out.

JJ

We're branching out because we're going to be looking at different aspects of music and we're going to start with rhythm. How do you feel about that?

Haz

So excited.

JJ

My name's JJ.

 Haz

My name's Haz.

 JJ

And this is part of the Braving the Stave series, I should say right from the get-go that we have a Spotify playlist that people… 

Haz

Well done, well done. 
 
 JJ
 Straight in there! Straight in there with loads of, well, frankly brilliant excerpts of music. Huge variety.

 Haz
 Weird, wonderful, comforting. Everything.

 JJ

So check out Braving the Stave on Spotify, and you can follow along with these excerpts that we'll be featuring today, and more. Haz, what is your relationship to rhythm generally?

 Haz

I don't wanna comment on it at this time. No, I think I've got better over the last couple of years, just more sightreading that you do or the more quick preparing for gigs where you're like, ‘Whoops, definitely should have spent more time on this!’ makes me better at playing, you know, complex rhythms or just identifying little patterns. That you’re like ‘Yeah, I know how this goes’, but I I ain't no percussionist when it comes to rhythm.

JJ

It's interesting, isn't it, because I think out of all the aspects of music, all the parameters, rhythm is the hardest to read and write. 
 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 
 JJ
 We feel rhythm so naturally in the body, and if I were to say, you know, just repeat that ‘da da de dit dit, da da de dit dit’ no problem for anybody listening, I would wager. Hmm, but try writing that down and that'll stump quite a few people.
 
 

Haz

Yeah. And, you know, even just doing arrangements for string quartet or anything like that, you try and write what you think it is and you play it back and you're like oh, no, that is not what I thought it was gonna be on the page!

JJ

And some people get very particular about almost caging rhythm in that way when it comes to folk rhythms and folk sources generally.

Haz

Yeah, it's a feel. 
 
 JJ
 It's a feel.
 
 Haz
 It's a feel, it's a vibe. I remember once trying to play a triplet in a master class with… I think he's a jazz clarinettist and he just literally rolled his eyes and he's like ‘ergh, string players can't play triplets.’ It's true! We go ‘duh, duh, duh.’
 
 

JJ

So quite robotic and not relaxed enough.

Haz

It's like 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2 and that's not a triplet, they should be equals pequals every time.

JJ

The equal division of the beat. We're going to be talking quite technically, ladies and gentlemen, about various different aspects of rhythm, and I've got a list here: syncopation, displacement, uneven metres, mixed metre, polyrhythm versus polymeter We've got a lot to get through.

Haz

I mean, I only know two of those words and I teach grade eight theory. So this is going to be illuminating for me.

JJ

Tush tush.

Haz
 I know, I know.
 
 JJ
 I don’t believe you.

Haz

Well, I know I literally know syncopation I think, but can we start there just in case I don't?

JJ

We can. Can we start a step back from that though, just to say that I don't know, because we both teach, whether you've noticed, I'm going to call it dysrhythmia, in your pupils. I'm sure that's not a thing but, you know, in the same way that some people struggle to read or to count, I do think there's a sort of increasing incidence of people who find even just keeping a pulse tricky.

Haz

Yes. And the difference between pulse and rhythm. And when I'm trying to teach something, I find that I put it usually into words like ‘get-your-hands-off-my-butter, get-your-hands-off-my-butter’. That's a classic one at the moment, or I taught my friend how to play this rhythm in an Irish party in 3rd class: ‘I'm-Angharad, ‘I'm-Angharad, ‘I'm-Angharad’ because that's easier than looking at the page and being like ‘Okay, those blobs mean this sound.’

JJ

Yes, I think it's interesting, isn't it, that with the increasing disconnect from the written word of music, if I can put it that way, that when you come to then to try and capture basic rhythms on the stave, there's an increased challenge there. But I think there's the other thing that I'm noticing within students is the propensity to rush, which is something we all share as musicians. And I wonder whether it's something very human to have a natural sense of momentum that comes in once you repeat an idea and you get it. So it's natural to the body, then you know what you typically do is just speed up because it becomes part of your flow.

Haz

Don't rush. I mean, that's classic I say don't rush. I've only said to a couple of pupils, one pupil in particular that I was like ‘Come on, let's keep it going’ because usually it's like ‘Steady, steady. Oh my God, steady!’ You're just trying to hold people back because they're like, ‘I can do it.’ You know, they want to prove that they can play it. Like ‘I can do it. I can do it fast.’ And it's like, ‘Ah, well, you must be able to play it slow.’ And yeah, in time.

JJ

It comes from a natural enthusiasm. I like that. I like that thought. And do you know something that I prize as a conductor as being able to know and instinctively feel what a metronome marking should feel like and click? So should we just put that to the test?

Haz

Yeah. OK, without a watch.

JJ

Well, I have here a metronome that I can play. I'm gonna ask you to click me 100 beats per minute. What you think that will be?

Haz

Lord. OK [clicks]

JJ

I would say that it's closer to 70 and that 100 beats is [clicks] something more like that. Shall we see? Shall we see? 
 
 Haz
 Yeah, go on!
 
 JJ
 Ok. This is quite exciting. Ah, I've got 100 PM. What does Google say?
 
 

JJ

Ooh! I think it's pretty close. This is slightly slower than what I did.

Haz

OK. Do you know what it is? It's because I'm preparing my pupils for exams and they're like, is that the exam tempo? And I'm like, yeah, near enough. I'll be fine. OK. You hit that dead on the mark. Well done.

JJ

Well, I'm proud of that. Thank you very much. But I think that I think you could do that too. It's just out of context. I just chucked you in the deep end.

Haz

I was thinking of minims. I was thinking of minims.

JJ

Yes, there we go. Shall we talk about syncopation? Let's start there. 

Haz

Please, I wish you would.

JJ
 Here is a piece that uses syncopation a lot.
 
 [MUSIC: Gershwin: I Got Rhythm. Artists: Ella Fitzgerald]

JJ

That's Ella Fitzgerald with her version of Gershwin’s I Got Rhythm.

Haz

That's swinging.

JJ

Isn’t it amazing?!

Haz

Love that. But we were both, like, nodding and clicking. You were like ‘mm ta, mm ta ta’. But then I think for me as a seasoned viola player, off beats are kind of my thing. Like you never see a viola player on an on-beat. And if you do they've lost their place entirely.

JJ

It's such a common accompanimental figure, isn't it? Within a quartet or wherever, and just to be clear, syncopation is that off-beatness so it'll be ‘[click] cha, ‘[click] cha, ‘[click] cha, ‘[click] cha’. And pretty much every single note in that song by Gershwin is off the beat. ‘da da dee dee, dee dee dee dee’ and what was brilliant is you hear the click at the beginning and then it goes. But Ella Fitzgerald has got such a strong pulse that when the big band comes back in it is bang on. It reminds me of that. You know? What's that thing? There's a radio 4 programme comedy thing ‘Have I got…’ no, no, that's right.

Haz

No, no, ‘Sorry, I Haven't a Clue’ or something like that
 
 JJ
 That’s right.
 
 Haz
 And they have to keep on singing with the song. And then when the song comes back in, they should be in the same place.

JJ

Ella would absolutely nail that.

Haz

Yes. But I love that when that started, I… well you assume that the click’s gonna be on the beat and then when she comes in your world kind of shifts, you're like ‘Oohh what am I doing here?’

JJ

That's the beauty of syncopation - it often pulls the rug from under your ears. Let's put it that way. This is another example of syncopation, but from the world of classical orchestral music. It is Stravinsky's Firebird suite and it's the Infernal Dance that happens towards the end, and this is what happens when you combine syncopation with an accelerando. So it goes from 1,2,3 into 1,2,3, 1,2,3. And it's really exciting.
 
 [MUSIC: Stavinsky: Infernal Dance from the Firebird Suite.

Speaker

OK.

Haz

I just feel like it's fizzing with energy.

JJ

Yes, and that's partly how he's orchestrated it and how the percussion is used and lots of other factors. But at the heart of it is how he treats rhythm.

Haz

Yeah, I remember practising this really, really, really hard in in college and just practising it so slowly with the metronomes like ‘duh, de de de de de de duh duh’ like that and then, but you can't really train your metronome to accel. with you, so you can only do it really quickly or really steadily sort of, you know, getting there and then, you know, when you're in the orchestral setting. That's why it’s so amazingly exciting, because you can only do it in situ with everyone else at the same time. And yeah, it's amazing.

JJ

Is the metronome your friend?

Haz

Yeah, definitely. Massively. And I find that I… it's almost like meditation when you're practising just from the moment you start open strings or really slow scales, and then you can start the tricky passages and your music slowly. Build it up, build it up until you feel like you can play it amazingly. Put yourself there in an orchestra and it all goes to pot. Playing Harry Potter recently. Thought I could play it. Could I? No. Nope!

JJ

Something I say to students is you can't start your practice until, say they're at the piano, say, until you've got your pencil out and you've got your metronome out. And now you're ready to start because you need to have your allies there to help you through the next hour. Or whatever.

Haz

Yeah, yeah. Because you can't… because otherwise the temptation is to be like, ‘Yeah, I've done that now.’ And it's like ‘Nope, you've done it once and you've barely scraped by’. All my pupils (all two of them now) have a metronome app on their phone. Which I made them download.
 
 JJ
 Yes.
 
 Haz
 It's important. It's important to have and then you can only blame yourself if you're out of time then.

JJ

Yes. And the metronome brings focus to so many other areas. That's the good thing is that when you have your pulse absolutely secure, that frees the brain, doesn't it? To look at other aspects of what you're expressing. So syncopation is, I suppose, one expression of displacing the beat. I thought we could listen to other forms of displacement where you take an entire phrase and you just sneak it in before the bar line, so you displace it in the sense of you put it in a place where the ear would not naturally sense it should be. Again, let's look at Gershwin. You can guess what I'm about to play.

Haz

Yeah, some Gershwin.

JJ

This is Fascinating Rhythm.
 
 [MUSIC: Gershwin: Fascinating Rhythm. Artists: Sarah Vaughan]

JJ

That was Sarah Vaughan. 
 
 Haz
 Beautiful
 
 JJ
 I love her voice.

Haz

Yeah, it's so gorgeous.

JJ

You know, are you an Ella fan or a Sarah Vaughan fan? Can you be both? I think you can be both.

Haz

Yeah, both. I love Sarah Vaughan's Lullaby of Birdland. But this is one of my favourites as well.

JJ

So what you've got there is quite a slow pulse, but you can hear the cross rhythms and how she's taken that phrase and put it against a very clear swing beat.

Haz

Yeah, it's on the beat, but it's still jolting in a way, isn't it? Like, yeah, not what you expect to hear.

JJ

And that's part of the joy of listening to it. I just wanted, by contrast, to play you the same song, but up tempo now. this time sung by The Crooners’ Tony Bennett and Diana Crowell. And the big difference is that the push beats are actually accompanied by a drum push as well. So rather than going against the beat and being a sort of an obvious cross rhythm against the steady pulse, everybody's starting the phrase together in the same way. It's a subtle thing but it changes the nature of this displacement.
 
 [MUSIC: Gershwin: Fascinating Rhythm. Artists: Tony Bennett and Diana Crowell]

Haz

Yeah, that's almost more dancy.

JJ

Yeah, it's a lot of fun, isn't it? Just to hear everybody in on the joke? Almost. 
 
 Haz
 Dee de dee dee de de, dee de de de de
 
 JJ
 I like that tempo as well. I think that suits… I mean both tempi work for different reasons, but it's just how much are you gonna emphasise the display speed is the question, yes.

Haz

So the displacement is the coming in altogether and the different place than it.

JJ

Yes. Then you would naturally. So we're not coming in on a downbeat of a ‘a one two thee four’ but it's against that and how the lines work, I mean, he's such a genius Gershwin isn’t he, you know. 
 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 
 JJ
 So I believe you have something rather Bulgarian to share with me.

Haz

Ohh yeah. So this is Kaval Sviri. Bulgarians comment if I'm not saying that correctly, but this is something I had to find online after hearing it on a documentary somewhere. And I had to find the score because I it drove me mad trying to work out the time signature and I could not. And do you know the time signature for this?

JJ

Well, there are different signatures involved. We've now moved on from syncopation and displacement to the whole…
 
 Haz
 Carnage. 

 JJ
 Well, carnage it might be for us western ears, but this whole question of uneven time signatures and it's interesting actually, that Bulgarian folk music is the most complex of all the Balkan folk musics because they use fives, nines, sevens, elevens in a additive way. They combine these time signatures so they don't even stay in one time signature for that long, necessarily.
 
 Haz
 No. Yeah.

JJ
  I've. I've written down here there that you can have 18/16. So that's 18 semiquavers in a bar divided into seven plus 11 or 22/16 divided into nine plus 13 and this piece, Kaval Sviri, I think is in nine for quite a long time.

Haz

9/16 yeah. 

JJ
 9/16 right, but divided into 4 + 2 + 3. Is that right?

Haz & JJ
 Duh de de, de de duh de de… [clapping]. I don't even know what that is.

 JJ
 Flips around a lot.

Haz

Yeah, I don't even…. I did so many car journeys and whoever sat next to me, I think was an ex at the time or whatever, I was like ‘No, no, you’re singing it wrong. Like turn it back, we gotta go…’ and missing our exit on the motorway. Just be like ‘No, no, no.’

JJ

So, apparently the way Bulgarian singers and players feel it is in terms of quick, quick, slow. They're not counting it in any way. They won't say ‘Oh yeah, this is in nine.’ They're just thinking slow, quick. So you know, so it might be a four plus two plus three. ‘one two three four five da da de deh de dee’ or whatever.

Haz

And it's dancing. And it's a feel. And that's why when I was watching this young choir perform it on TV they were all together perfectly, much more than if they were all reading it from the score, it sounds together, amazingly.

JJ

And there's a name for this field within the Bulgarian folk music tradition, circles. In fact, they borrow it from Turkey and it's the Turkish word aksak A K S A K aksak. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, aksak

Haz

Aksak. A K….

JJ

And it means it means limping, so it builds into the whole mood of the piece the fact that you've got this uneven rhythm and that's at the heart of it.

Haz

That's so cool. 

JJ

Let's have a listen. 
 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 
 [Music: Kaval Sviri. Artists: Le Mystère des Voix Bulgares]

JJ
 Oh my giddy aunt.
 
 Haz

I know. Quick levels test because I did just get so excited that my microphone just fell off the table, sorry.

JJ

I think it's looking good. We could just listen to that in so many different ways. I mean, just thinking about the harmonies they use, the tone, the brightness of the sound. And there's just so much to enjoy about that.

Haz

But the rhythm, I think is the most impressive. It's so tight and it's so… they're singing as one unit sounds like a synth and it's amazing.

JJ

So what we heard there was everything chucked into the kitchen sink. Basically, we've got syncopation, definitely that off-beat quality, we've got uneven metres. So it's in nine, but then we've got mixed metres because we're going from one time signature to another I defy… I mean, whoever transcribed that deserves a medal.

Haz

Yes, amazing. And there's a version on YouTube that you can see there's this script of the music going past as well. And if you do wanna follow on, you know, along with that, then yeah, all power to you.

JJ

Which set of instruments, if you were to transcribe that for a small ensemble of instruments, what would you choose?

Haz

I'd love to try it as a string quartet.
 
 JJ
 Really?
 
 Haz
 Because I feel like it's one of those ones where you can have the same power of each voice, because I think it's really important to have… it's like a choir sound or maybe, I mean, I'd hate this, I'd literally hate it, but saxophones.

JJ
 I was just going to say saxophones! I was because of the quality of the tone. 
 
 Haz
 Yeah
 
 JJ
 And how bright it gets right at the end. Stunning singing as well, just in terms of the intonation, that was ‘The Mystery of the Bulgarian Voices’. They call themselves Le Mystère des Voix Bulgares and you can find that on YouTube and we shall post it on our Spotify playlist.
 
 Haz
 Woohoo!
 
 JJ
 So I mean, where can we go from there? I thought we could look at the whole issue of displacement from a more modernist perspective in music. We left off with Stravinsky. If we go, I don't know, 20 or 30 years later we're in the world of Steve Reich and minimalism. I thought we could listen to a beautiful rhythmic texture that uses phasing, so displacing the entries of each instrument in a really imaginative and deeply funky way, this is overlapping electric guitar sounds played on this recording by Pat Massini and it's called Electric Counterpoint and this is Part 3. 
 
 [Music: Steve Reich: Electric Counterpoint. Artists:
 
 JJ
 So many different treasures we're swapping. I feel this is a multiple treasure swap episode.

 Haz

Yeah. And that was really hypnotic. I was just listening to that. We both went into our own, you know, little world there. But yeah. But you can feel the different layers coming and going around in a cycle. Yeah, I don't know if anyone's ever been stuck in traffic and tried to, you know, watch their indicator, go and the car in front if that's a little bit quicker, you can watch it do a full cycle. It'll be like 1,2 1,2 1,2 1,2 1 and then suddenly 2,1 2,1 2,1 2,1.

JJ

You know all this is doing for me is making me want to go on a road trip with you, Haz.

Haz

Yeah. Yeah, no, you don't.

JJ

Endless fun from Bulgarian, sort of, backtracks to, yeah, watching indicators.

Haz

Yeah, like ‘Shh, everyone be quiet, we need to watch these indicators phase.’

JJ

That is actually quite cool, I am actually going to do that.

Haz

Yeah, it's really good fun. I mean, a lonely life I lead, but.

JJ

We've just been listening, I suppose, not just to an interesting rhythmic texture, and it is about how he builds that texture with various different sounds. You've got a couple or three electric guitars. I can't remember the score, but then you get the acoustic sound, you've got the, sort of the, bass sound coming in as well. So it's partly the tonal variety that makes it so interesting, but it's mainly about the displacement of each idea. They're saying the same thing, but at slightly different times, essentially, and that's part of the beauty of minimalism, or that particular minimalist technique.
 
 [Music: Steve Reich: Electric Counterpoint. Artists:
 
 JJ
 So we're about to listen to America from West Side Story, which goes between, I suppose the ‘da da da dee de dee’ 6/8 and that ‘dah dah dah’ 3/4. So in a in a way, it's an example of mixed metre and what I love though is right at the beginning you have a glorious example, and this is often overlooked, of polyrhythm.
 
 Haz
 Oh yeah, ‘ch ch ch ch’.
 
 JJ
 Yeah, yeah. You've got a Latin clave rhythm, which is ‘mm da da, da da da da da da da da’. And then against that you've got crotchet triplets I think ‘duh duh duh.’
 
 Haz
 ‘dee dee dee dee dee dee’
 
 JJ
 And then faster triplets and it's just this beautiful haze of sound.

 Haz
 Yeah
 
 [Music: America from West Side Story. Artists:]

Haz

Yeah, cool. Cool as anything isn't it.

JJ

Yeah. ‘Smoke on your pipe and put that in’ That phrase I just want to work that into dinner time conversation at some point.

Haz

Yeah. Or just like, as you go like, ‘thanks for having me, smoke on your pipe and put that in.’

JJ
 ‘Smoke on your pipe and put that in!’ Yeah, it's the marriage of the energy and the rhythm actually of the libretto with the energy of the music that works so well. But yeah, just coming back to that introduction where you've got the Latin American cave rhythm against all these swirling mists of sounds. It's just brilliant. It conjures the heat of the city, doesn't it?

Haz

Yeah, massively. And then when you get into the tune, you've got the same number of quavers in each bar, but they just felt differently. Just like ‘dn dn de dn dn de um da um da um da.’ Ah!

JJ

And it's that syncopation in the second bar, the fact you're going ‘mm ta mm ta mm ta’ and that's in in the score as well, you've got an added layer of interest and funkiness.

Haz

Interest and funkiness. That's great.

JJ

I tend to be drawn to composers who love experimenting with rhythm, and I just wanted to bring in Bartók here because he's a superb example.

Haz

Welcome Bartók, thank you for joining us.

JJ

Welcome to our conversation, fella. And actually, I was gonna feature him earlier after we were talking about the Bulgarian voices. Because he too was fascinated by Bulgarian rhythms and for his miniature pieces for piano they’re called microcosmos, he comes up with six Bulgarian dances, each examining a different aspect of Bulgarian rhythm. And this one, it's number 1, looks at how you divide nine beats, again, and I mentioned this earlier actually, but with 4 + 2 + 3 so it's 1234, 12, 123, 1234, 12, 123. Quite a simple device, but it takes a little while for our western symmetrical ears, if I can put it that way, to be to just acclimatise.
 
 [Music. Bartók.]
 
 JJ
 There's always an edge to the Bartók sound, even just in two lines on a piano, right?

Haz

Yeah. And it's weird because you could, sort of, count it in nine, but it's way too hokey in nine, it's like 123456789 but it’s ‘da gh da da da da duh’ and I'm banging myself on the head while I'm doing that, but it's it affects the way that you play it and perform it. Therefore, it affects the stresses on the beat and what the listener hears. And so it’s a bit more jarring.

JJ

And if you combine that jarring quality with quite acid harmonies as he does, you've got a very interesting listen. I love that. It says so much with so little, in a way. And the collection of six Bulgarian dances are little gems.

Haz

I have to as well put my two cents in - there's two violins. There's some beautiful duets by Bartók as well. I say beautiful, sometimes weird, sometimes dark and scary. But that's also beautiful.

JJ

Should we end in a brighter place do you think?

Haz

We may as well.

JJ

And, I mean, it doesn't get brighter than Welsh folk music, I think.

Haz

It's the top, the tippity top of the pyramid is the Welsh folk.

 JJ

This is Callan and I thought we could use this sound to see us out in a very different space. Now you know, members of the Welsh folk band, Callan.

Haz

I know everyone. I'm so popular and entertaining and joyous and…

JJ

What are they like, Haz, what are they like?!

Haz

Very cool. Way cooler than me, individually and collectively, they're just cool people with amazing musicality and really good levels of groove, I'm gonna say. They just feel it. And it's a joy to watch.

JJ

And they're an award-winning Welsh folk band.

Haz

It’s disgusting, isn't it? And they're nice and good people.

JJ

And that comes across in this song that we're going to see you out with. It's Hazen Quins and it's from one of their earlier albums, and actually it's not doing anything particularly interesting rhythmically apart from folk music, I think always has a natural rhythmicity to it, but I just love the general feel of it and the sounds that they get out of their instruments. It's just so beautiful. Really, the prompt for me for this was to do a very belated, by the time listeners hear this, a very belated tribute to Dydd Santes Dwynwen, the Welsh equivalent of Valentine's Day, which is normally celebrated when, Haz?
 
 

Haz

End of January.

JJ

Ah, we're way over.

Haz

But I love how you've just skipped past Valentine's Day and instead of doing belated Valentine's, it's going to be Santes Dwynwen, so yeah, perfect.

JJ

There's something more romantic about Dydd Santes Dwynwen, for me, anyway, than Valentine's, which feels very sort of Hallmark cardy and commercial.
 
 Haz
 I know.
 
 JJ
 I think there's something about the folk traditions about Santes Dwynwen, who we've said in previous podcasts, was quite a forlorn figure, ending up marooned on an island off Anglesey I think.

Haz

Once again, shall we end this on an upbeat kind of attitude, please?

 JJ

Back to the music! Back to the wonderful sounds of Callan. Thank you, listeners, for joining us on this one. Next time we'll be looking at the properties of melody. 
 
 Haz
 Oooh!
 
 JJ
 So lots to explore there. So until next month.

Haz

Hwyl am y tro!

[Music. Artists: Callan.]