Long Term Benefits of Vision Therapy with Hazel Dawkins

Denise discusses vision therapy with Hazel Dawkins who did therapy in the 1980s and wrote several non-fiction books for the layperson on the subject. She has also used vision therapy as subject matter in her mystery novels. She is one of the authors who inspired my previous guest, Michael Lievens to pursue vision therapy.

Hazel's ebooks available on Amazon (some also available in print)
 
Suddenly Successful Student and Friends: https://www.amazon.com/Suddenly-Successful-Student-Friends-Dawkins-ebook/dp/B008LMT7YE/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1V1XYKWEWSIZI&keywords=hazel+dawkins&qid=1689743215&sprefix=hazel+dawkins%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-5
Eye Sleuth: https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Sleuth-Yoko-Mystery-Book-ebook/dp/B005M5PJ1S/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1V1XYKWEWSIZI&keywords=hazel+dawkins&qid=1689743350&sprefix=hazel+dawkins%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-4
Eye Witness: https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Witness-Yoko-Mysteries-Book-ebook/dp/B07N1Z4GNG/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1V1XYKWEWSIZI&keywords=hazel+dawkins&qid=1689743350&sprefix=hazel+dawkins%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-6
Eye Sleuth's Ghostly Vacations: A Dr. Yoko Mystery: https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Sleuths-Ghostly-Vacations-Mystery-ebook/dp/B00TYU2QQ8/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1V1XYKWEWSIZI&keywords=hazel+dawkins&qid=1689743350&sprefix=hazel+dawkins%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-3
Eyes on the Past: https://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Past-Yoko-Kamimura-Mystery-ebook/dp/B07FRL6YMJ/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1689743350&sr=8-2
Hazy Memory (her memoir): https://www.amazon.com/Hazy-Memory-Hazel-Dawkins-ebook/dp/B094G42ST7/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1689743350&sr=8-1

Suddenly Successful  is available from OEPF: https://www.oepf.org/shop/?s=suddenly+successful&post_type=product

Click the link above to message me directly. It comes to me as FAN MAIL! How great is that? Just click on the place that says, "If you liked this episode CLICK HERE:"

Transcript

Denise: Welcome today to the Healing Our Sight podcast. I'm so excited today to introduce you to my guest, Hazel Dawkins. Those of you who've been listening to the podcast may remember that Michael Lievens mentioned her book when we spoke. And I have since purchased that book online and read it and it's amazing. Also, she has written some fun novels that have a doctor, Dr. Yoko, who's a vision therapy doctor, as the detective in the mysteries, which is really fun. So, we're going to talk about all of that today and hear about Hazel's vision therapy journey also. So welcome today, Hazel.

Hazel: Thank you so much.

Denise: Yes, tell us a little bit about how your vision therapy journey started, how your vision was when you, when you were young and all of that.

Hazel: Well, I was very active when I was young, fairly active now, but so I just careened into doorways, I fell off my bike, I fell out of trees, I bumped into people. And so, the verdict was, oh, she's really clumsy. 

Denise: Right

Hazel: I wish she would slow down a little. And the interesting thing is that I taught myself to read when I was three and my daughter Alexandra did the same thing. But when I read, I used to sit on the floor. And now I look back and I realize that I was stabilizing myself because my vision system was not in balance. But it was not until I was in my 40s that I discovered vision therapy. And amazingly enough, the practitioner, Dr. Edelman, lived five minutes away from me. And it was the second time we had moved back to Pennsylvania and the second time I connected with him, purely because we had bought a house and we'd looked at other houses and in one of the houses, the wife made quilts and the husband was a carpenter. And I thought, oh, that's a good couple to know. And so, we hired the carpenter to do some work and then I hired the wife to make a quilt. And when she came to the house, I had put up a sheet of paper with some vision exercises from Aldous Huxley's book, which a friend had recommended. And she said, oh, do you go to Dr. Edelman? I said, who's that? And she said, well, my mother-in-law works for him and he treats people with vision problems. I thought, oh my goodness. So, when I went along to see Dr. Edelman, he said, well, you're not blind in that eye. And I said, oh, I am blind in that eye. It's all black. It's all been black ever since I was about, I don't know, 10 or 11 when I had surgery to correct an interning eye. And my father would say. He would hold up one hand and cover my good eye and say, what do you see? And I'd say, I don't see anything. It's all black. And he said, how can that be? And of course, we didn't know, and it didn't bother me in the least. And I now understand that's partly because my vision imbalance precluded me from considering the question. As far as I could understand, I could see perfectly well with one eye. Who cared if I had two? 

Denise: Right.

Hazel: So, it's interesting how you look back and realize what decisions and understandings you had. So, when I got to Dr. Edelman and he said, no, no, no, you're not blind in that eye. And I said, really? All my life, I've been to ophthalmologists, you know, just for. Way back when, when you worked in Europe, you usually had a medical appointment before you were accepted for the job. And the ophthalmologist would say, well, you have good sight. And I said, well, how come I don't see with one eye? And they'd say, what do you mean? And I'd say, what do you mean? So, it's one of those puzzling questions. Yes. So clearly, the eye that was not seeing was healthy. So, Dr. Edelman explained to me that because the input from both eyes fuses halfway back to the visual cortex, the mine was not. My two eyes were not fusing accurately together to form one image. And so that's why I didn't really understand where I was in space. That's why I bumped into doorways, et cetera. And actually, just a few years ago, one of my daughters was with me at Dr. Lazart's office. Excuse me. And she said, well, that's very clear. Why can't she see that? And Dr. Lazart said, Cover one eye with your hand. So, she did that. And he said, what do you see now? And she said, oh, yes, that's difficult. I don't. So that was a very quick introduction to using both eyes or using one eye. And I am so glad that people are becoming more aware, because it's a hidden health issue, because it. Your hormones and your vision are intimately connected. So, if you have an imbalance in your vision, then it's playing havoc with your hormones. And that.

Denise: That's interesting. I hadn't had anyone tell me that before.

Hazel: But think about it. If you turn around and see a tiger, your first impression is, wow. It's fear or flight, yes? because, your adrenaline has kicked in. Right, right. So, yeah, so what you see, what comes in through the vision system has an enormous impact on your life. Not alone physically, when you bump into the door like did when I was a kid, but literally the rest of your body. So. And that can be very, very difficult. The other aspect is that living with a vision imbalance is like having 20-pound weight around your waist. You're carrying an extra burden. And after I, after I had some vision therapy, things really changed. My husband said to me, well, I want the Hazel I married. I don't want a different Hazel. So, I dutifully repeated this to Dr. Edelman. He said, oh, you'll be the same Hazel, but you'll be much nicer, you'll be much calmer. And it was so true.

Denise: Right. Yeah, well, it's not like vision therapy is going to change your personality or anything like that.

Hazel: Right.

Denise: Makes you a better version of yourself.

Hazel: Yes, very nicely put. Yes

Denise: Awesome. So you were in your 40s when you finally found vision therapy, right?

Hazel: Yes, yes.

Denise: How long did that whole process take you?

Hazel: Well, I have to admit, I was not a very good candidate doctor. Dr. Edelman prescribed glasses, and I would put them away, not wear them. So, I'd be going back for an appointment, and I'd be walking up the path and I'd fish them out of my pocket and put them on. And he said to me, once I saw you do that, you're not wearing the glasses. So, I said, well, I never had to wear glasses. I don't see what difference it makes. And he said, look, here's an experiment. You wear the glasses one day and see how you feel at the end of the day. The next day don't wear the glasses and see how you feel. And I was astonished because at the end of the day wearing the glasses, I was comfortable. At the next day, not wearing the glasses, I was exhausted because I was having to work really hard to figure out where I was in space. And so that  persuaded me. So, I wore the glasses and then I went to. I guess I went fairly regularly. And in fact, Dr. Edelman said to me, you're a strabismic amblyo, or as I like to say, an amblyopic strabismic. And he said, some practitioners won't even work with them because it's a very deep-seated problem and it takes a long time to eradicate. And again, he was quite right. So, I think, I'm just trying to remember, I think at one point we were visiting friends in Phoenix, Arizona. And I'd contacted a practitioner in the area. I said, I want to write a book about this therapy. And I said, I've sat in on some of the clinics in New York at the College of Optometry there, visited various practitioners. And so, this fellow was really good. And there was one woman, an orchestra player, violinist from Israel, she was visiting. I guess the orchestra had been playing in the area. And she'd gone to him because she'd had headaches, and it was amazing. He was explaining to her what the problem was. And she was just resolutely saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. And he said, here's the address of somebody you can see in Israel. Well, I don't see why I need to do that. Well, if you were having headaches where I recommend some glasses and I think it'll be helpful. So, I remember sitting there and thinking, this is why it's a challenge for the practitioners. Not to mention that frequently ophthalmologists are very, very backward in coming forward. It's partly territorial, which is ironic because optometrists frequently recommend people go to an ophthalmologist, but it's very rare the other way around. And partly there have been comments that they're by the ophthalmologist. There is no research to this, and I'm sorry, there's well over a thousand documented, whatever the. I forget what the correct word is, but these are validated research studies which do show that it. And in fact, you know, going back a few years in the US the government would pay when students in class were shown to be poor students and have a vision imbalance, they would pay for vision therapy that soon got kicked out, which is a great shame. So, as I say, I did the research, I wrote the book. Actually, I had said to Dr. Edelman, well, there should be a book on this. And he said, oh, there's lots of books. So, when I looked at his bookshelf, I said, no, these are professional books for the practitioners. I'm talking about a book for the general reader. And he said, well, you have to go talk to other practitioners. And I have to say that I was very dubious about what he had told me until I started doing the research and found that everything he said was absolutely accurate. And talking to other practitioners, I put together what I call a brief overview of the suddenly successful student. And then I wrote a larger book, which I called Suddenly Successful. Not thinking of another title, but some people complain, but you can't please everybody.

Denise: Please. So, there's actually two different books, and one of them was called Suddenly Successful Student, and the other is Suddenly Successful Student and Friends. Is that how it went.

Hazel: No, the big book is called Suddenly Successful.

Denise: Oh, oh, okay.

Hazel: But there's a third book, which is my most favorite one, which is Focus your Mind's Eye, which is case that I collected from across. Actually, more or less across the world. I wrote to a lot of practitioners. And once when I was visiting in Australia, visiting friends and family, I visited a couple of practitioners and so was able to include some stories from them. And in France, I visited someone in Paris, I think. Yeah. So, it's. It's going back a long way now. So.

Denise: Well, the. Did the book I, the book that I have said that it came out in 1990. Is that about the time frame?

Hazel: Actually, that's probably a revision. Bob Williams, who was the director of the OEP foundation, said that, -- we became very good friends-- And I had said to him, you know, there's a lot more information about this now. And he said, I would love to if you could have a new copyright, because that's always. So, by adding some more information, you can take a new copyright. I think it came out in the. I think 1984 or 5 was the first. And I remember I was visiting friends in Southern California, and I went to visit Bob Williams and I said, so will the foundation be interested in this? And he said, at the moment, the board that we have won't be interested. But he said, the board is changing, so come back or contact me next year. So, it's interesting how I think partly it was protective. Practitioners didn't want to have a lot of mud slung by the ophthalmologists who were very, very ready to do that. Oh, there's no research. Oh, it's all hoo-ha, you know.

Denise: Right. Well. And you've updated it since then too, haven't you? Because I, when I was reading it, I was noticing there's things that were in the 2000s that you were referencing.

Hazel: Yes, exactly. Yes, yes.

Denise: What's been the response to the book over the years?

Hazel: Well, when it first came out, practitioners were very happy and they bought. Bought it by the caseload. And Bob Williams at OEP said to me, once you've made more money for us than any other book or any other activity, which was great.

Denise: What about making money for you? Did you get to make any money off of it?

Hazel: Yes. Yeah. And actually, it was me because I thought, oh, you write a book and you make money. It is not the case. But, you know, really, to me, it was so important to try to share the news. And I got some wonderful phone calls and letters from people, often teachers saying, I'm so glad. When I was in college, I had a vision imbalance and I so struggled, but I was so determined to get my degree. And thank you so much for writing this book because so many people have no idea that, especially parents. And in fact, one teacher said that she was called in by her principal who said, what you're recommending is voodoo. You should not be talking about this. It's just rubbish. And again, the comment was, you're a teacher, if you want to stay at this school, you stop talking about this. And you think, what on earth is wrong with people, threatening somebody like that? So, this woman was wonderful. She said, So, I rewrote how I spoke to people. I would say, oh, did you hear about so and so? You might want to talk to that family because they took their child to doctor so and so and so. And she managed to. . .Very smart. Yes.

Denise: Yeah. Well, I, I think that the schools really just don't want to have to pay for it because that's kind of the instruction that I had when I was a substitute teacher.

Hazel: Oh, interesting.

Denise: Yeah, they told me, yeah. It was about the time that I started vision therapy in 2011 and they told me not to mention it to anyone. And there were kids struggling in my class that (I was a long-term sub in a classroom) and there was a particular child that really struggled and I wanted to tell his parents that there were some things they should look at. And they said I couldn't say anything.

Hazel: Oh, that's, you know, something that is a type of abuse because the civil rights of the individual are being impacted deliberately. So sorry to hear that.

Denise: Yeah. No, that's partly why I decided not to go back and get a teaching certificate and teach. I just couldn’t live in that environment. So.

Hazel: Very frustrating.

Denise: Yes, very, very much so. Yeah. So, they've come out with a lot of books since then. Is your book still doing well?

Hazel: I actually, Bob Williams retired. He always was in touch and would send checks. And then they did move from California. They still have an office in California. OEP does, but they moved to Maryland, I think. And I had to write to them a couple of times and say, you still have my books on your website. And then finally I would get a check. So. But it's rather naughty to have to chase them. But I suspect that my book opened the way for practitioners to write. They had, you know, they've been so busy. And it's also the whole, the growth in social media and technical reality, virtual reality. I should say, that I think that they realized that they could share more about what they were doing other than having a practice, which when you think about it, it's an incredible business because the fellow that I met in Arizona, he said that the ophthalmologist was so hostile they kept stealing his sign and taking it away. Really sad, you know. Yeah.

Denise: Well, I think a lot of the books have been published by the optometric extension rather than in the, you know, general purchasing industry. But your books are now on Amazon, right?

Hazel: Yes. And probably. I don't know, I've never checked, but probably some of the other books are on Amazon too. But you know. And I'm afraid I'm a classic writer. I don't do too much with the marketing. And if, if anybody does follow through there, there are ways to reach out more to people to say that you've got a book. But I. At least the book is on Kindle.

Denise: Right. Right.

Hazel: That is a paperback.

Denise: Yeah. I found your book on Amazon. I haven't looked for all of them on there, but I did get Suddenly Successful Student on Amazon and the first Dr. Yoko book “Eye Sleuth” I got on Amazon. I don't know if all of them are on there though on Kindle.

Hazel: Should be. And in fact, I have a cousin in. A cousin in law in Australia who insist my website disappeared and quite a few years and Deb insisted on retrieving it. Which was great. And I'll ask her. She's very good at technical matters. I will ask her to follow through. I think she did retrieve that recently. I think we had. Yeah, I'm pretty sure she did find out that they weren't all on Amazon and she did something about that. But I'll double check. I will make a note to myself to double check.

Denise: I may want to read the rest of them after I finish this first one. I thought it was really fun that you put real people into your novels. Did you have to get permission from all of them to use their names in there?

Hazel: Actually, I do know a little bit about copyright law and etc. If you keep any mention a. If the person is a public figure, which people with a business, they're public. If you keep the mention to a small amount then you are legally covered. But Bob Williams used to go around saying, do you know you're in a book like Dr. Beth Lezine, et cetera. And Dr. Ballinger. But I. I just thought that it was important to show that there were real people doing this. You know, I had enjoyed reading mysteries, and so at one point I thought, oh, it would be such fun to write about a practitioner. And, of course, I like to make life difficult for myself, so I made her a Japanese American. When I lived outside Detroit, I knew a lot of Japanese Americans and a lot of Japanese who were in the US for five years, usually with the automotive industry. And so that was a lot of fun having Dr. Yoko. Now, from the vantage point of several years, I am not pleased with them. I would have handled. . . I would have added more substance to the. . . I would have had more people other than Dr. Yoko and a few practitioners. But I think every writer complains bitterly about the work that they've done. Time. My favorite book of the Dr. Yoko series is the second one that I did with Dennis Berry.

Denise: Okay, I'll be looking for that one, too. Yeah, that is really fun. So, In your memoir, you talk about your vision therapy a little bit, and then at the end you have a little addendum where you're talking about how your vision is now. Right. And you. You mentioned that it's still a struggle to keep your eyes straight, but yet you still have balanced vision.

Hazel: Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's interesting. When I finally did retrieve vision in my left eye, so it's no longer black if I close my right eye, however, so I have very low central vision, which is what you need to use when you're reading. And I have very strong peripheral vision, which is really important when you're driving. Often when there are accidents, automotive accidents, people will say, oh, the other car came out of nowhere. And that's because peripheral vision is not very good. So, I found that I was indeed much more balanced. I could handle the daily routine more easily. And I was indeed calmer. My middle name is. Is impatient. Unfortunately, I always want everything done right away and better do it well, you know. But unfortunately, we don't know why the left eye was compromised, and it probably was from birth. And I think it was Dr. Forrest at New York College of Optometry. Brilliant practitioner, written a lot of books, and just wonderful. He told me that it can be very difficult because if an infant has a high fever, it can damage part of the vision system. Then there can be a blow to the eye when you're young or even older. In fact, Sir Salman Rushdie, I guess a few years ago, was attacked when he was giving a talk and he was blinded in one eye by the attack, which is. I think it's extremely hard as an adult because I grew up with one eye. I didn't think anything of it. And so suddenly coming to having two eyes was a really profound experience and really something that I not only appreciated, but I valued highly. And recently I was visiting friends in the US and one who is an artist has macular degeneration, and so she's going blind. And I remember thinking, yikes, what's going to happen if I ever lose my good eye? But interestingly enough, Dr. Edelman said that if I covered my strong eye for periods at a time, it should help improve the quality of the left eye vision. I did do that for a while, and it didn't seem to help. Perhaps it wasn't long enough. So, yes, and I am lazy about holding my eye straight, the left eye straight. With most people, this is an involuntary thing. Like you breathe and your blood rate is. Everything continues. For me, it is a voluntary action, and I can do it, but I have to think about it and have to do it. And so, I think, oh, well, you know, when I finally. When I've had some balance in my vision, and I realized that when I was hanging out, I said to my husband, my goodness, what did you think of that? He said, nothing, it's just you. There's a lot of people like that. So, I thought, oh, okay. So that was.

Denise: I think people do get used to it. After my surgery, one of my piano students told his dad, who is my doctor, that he liked me before. He had to get used to my eyes being straight.

Hazel: Isn't that interesting?

Denise: It's funny. So. And children tend to notice it more than adults even do, too.

Hazel: Oh, that's interesting.

Denise: Yeah, it was funny. In there you also say, if you see someone whose eyes aren't straight, that doesn't mean their vision is out of balance. And when you see someone whose eyes are straight, it does not mean their vision system is in balance. So, I guess I always thought that if someone's eyes were crooked, that they actually didn't have that balance, that they weren't, you know, they weren't seeing in 3D. Is that not the case? Do you see in 3D?

Hazel: That's an interesting question that you pose, because Dr. Edelman made that statement to me, and I didn't question him about it at the time. But all I can think is that very possibly when you look at somebody and their eyes don't seem to be straight, that doesn't mean that they're not seeing in 3D, that there isn't balance. I think it could be a little bit like something is on the edge, but it's not falling over, you know. Have you ever seen, you know, when you see a cat sitting next to something and it nudges something off the edge? As I say, I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think Dr. Edelman would have said that to me without it being reasonable. And it is true that plenty of people that I know whose eyes are straight, they do have vision imbalances. And if they can be persuaded, I have now learned to stop telling people unless I can do it very discreetly and diplomatically. In fact, one day I was out shopping, and I passed a mother with a little boy, and literally, his eyes were going around in circles. And I remember stopping and thinking, what the heck? And then I thought about it, and I thought, oh, no, that I cannot not say something. And I went back and I said very diplomatically, excuse me, but I just wanted to mention that I knew a doctor who can be very helpful to youngsters with vision problems. And the mother was understandably, so, a little defensive, and she said, oh, oh, well, it's his kidneys. We're seeing a specialist for his kidneys. I'm thinking, oh. So, I did ask her where she lived, and it was in Pennsylvania. And I said, there are two practitioners I can recommend. Dr. So and so and Dr. So and so, and I don't know what happened. So, and undoubtedly, again, going back to the reference that your hormones are affected by your vision system, so are your kidneys, you know. Which, it's an amazing thing. My kidneys have always been diagnosed as weak. Now, for the average Western doctor, they're fine, they're okay. But I go for acupuncture, I go to herbalists, et cetera. And in fact, a friend of mine was studying acupuncture and herbalism with an MD who was a cardiologist and an acupuncturist, and Dr. Gu in Philadelphia. And when you walked into, he had a shop front, and when you walked in, every wall was covered in little drawers. And if he made up an herbal prescription, he would open little drawers and take things out. But Jenny, my friend who was studying with him, had felt my pulses, and she said, oh, your pulses are very weak. Ask Dr. Gu about this. So, I had gone in to see Dr. Gu, and he said, oh, really? Is that what Jenny says? And then I don't know if you've had acupuncture because they feel the pulses in both wrists and there are two pulses in each wrist. And so, he felt my pulses and he said, oh, yes, your kidneys are very weak. And I said, well, why is that? And he said, because you're old. 

Denise: Oh…

Hazel: Well, that's the Chinese answer for a lot of things. I think I was in my 50s at the time, so. But now looking back, I am sure that my kidneys were depleted by the constant vision imbalance. And it's lucky that I have good energy. I still do yoga and I switch from playing tennis to doing yoga, which is easier to find time for. So. Yeah. And actually, it's lovely being in England because I'm close to my siblings and we're all very strong and healthy. They all have vision imbalances, and they don't listen to me, but that's okay.

Denise: You know, it seems like the people closest to us are the least likely to listen. Yeah, that's. That's been my experience also.

Hazel: Yeah. 

Denise: Yeah. But we don't treat our body as a whole entity like we should, you know.

Hazel: Exactly. Yes, good point.

Denise: Wow, it's been awesome talking to you today. Do you have some final advice for the listeners today regarding vision?

Hazel: Well, I would say run, don't walk, to a practitioner of neuro optometry, because even if you have reasonable vision, you can find that the correct prescription, if you wear glasses, is so valuable. It really supports your entire activity day by day by day. And if your vision is not in good balance, you're going to the right person to help you. And these practitioners are very gifted people, and they've gone a long way. They, once they had their degree in optometry, they then decided to go for post optometric studies. And that's expensive and time consuming and most practitioners, if they're not affiliated with the college, are in business for themselves. So, they really value people supporting them and we value having them to support as well. So, yes, I can only suggest that this is a very critical situation for health, for your overall health. And so. And now it's called neuro optometry because the brain is very involved in the vision system. And as you know, without a brain, what happens.

Denise: That's for sure. Yeah. And I. I think people don't realize that it can help. Everyone can help. Like you mentioned in your book that they did a program for policemen even. I thought that was interesting.

Hazel: Yes. Yeah. That was Dr. Folkiotes in Connecticut and Dr. Bertoli. Dr. Folkiotes was a very. They both were Very distinguished practitioners, very involved in their community. Dr. Folkiotes was also a certified court witness when they call in a special specialist on certain things. So frequently he was in court. So, he got to know a lot of the police force in Connecticut and offered them a lot of strategic help. And Dr. Bertoli very much did the same thing, followed through with what Dr. Forkiotis was doing. I was very fortunate because I lived. I was living in Connecticut, so I was able to visit Dr. Forkiotes and Dr. Bertoli quite a bit. We would end up having long lunches and talking about the state of vision, which is great.

Denise: Must have been an experience. Yeah.

Hazel: And I always found that the practitioners usually were very welcoming and grateful that I knew something about the therapy as opposed to having to convince people about it. 

Denise: Right. Yeah. Well, I think that what we're doing now is hopefully going to raise some more awareness. Right? And  I'll recommend all of your books and I'll put a link in the show notes so that people can check those out as well. And I will maybe find another time that we can chat later.

Hazel: Okay. That's wonderful. I. I think what you're doing is absolutely brilliant, and I think you deserve a full gold medal or three gold stars.

Denise: Oh, that's very sweet of you. I think that it's really fun that there's finally some fiction that includes vision therapy. I don't know if there's anything else like that out there.

Hazel: I don't think so. And again, because my experience with my factual books were so positive, I thought, oh, great, these will fly off the shelves, actually 

Denise: Well, we're raising. We're going to raise awareness that they're there. That's going to be helpful.

Hazel: Wonderful.

Denise: Oh, fun. Well, thank you so much, and thanks for spending this time with me. And we had a big difference in time that we had to accommodate today, so I appreciate you accommodating that with me, too, so..

Hazel: Lovely to have time with you, Denise. Thank you so much.

B Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Healing Our Sight podcast. I'd love to hear from you. If you like this episode, please share it and please join our Facebook community at Healing our site to leave suggestions or comments. Have a great day.