Gaining 3D vision at age 70 with Dr. Angela Dobson

Denise speaks with Dr. Angela Dobson who assisted Robert Crockett in gaining 3D vision at age 70.  His goal was to see in 3D before he died, and he was able to achieve that! Her story is amazing as well.  Tune in for all the details!

Robert Crockett's memoir, Cross-Eyed Optimist is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Cross-eyed-Optimist-Learned-Straightened-Therapy/dp/1999574125#:~:text=This%20is%20Robert's%20story%20of,a%20proven%20alternative%20to%20surgery. 

Dr. Dobson's website: http://vision-sense.ca/

Click the link above to message me directly. It comes to me as FAN MAIL! How great is that? Just click on the place that says, "If you liked this episode CLICK HERE:"

Transcript

Denise: Welcome today to the Healing Our Sight podcast. I'm your host, Denise Allen, and I have here with me today, Dr. Angela Dobson. She is a behavioral optometrist who specializes in assessing and treating the visual process. In her clinic, Vision Sense, she offers new visual treatments for people with concussions, whiplash, traumatic and acquired brain injuries, people with learning difficulties, and binocular vision difficulties, including strabismus and amblyopia. Her treatments include the use of ophthalmic lenses, yoked prism lenses, visual vestibular and neuropostural therapy, and Syntonics. She works closely with other healthcare practitioners to develop a custom and effective treatment plan for each individual. Angela has been practicing optometry in Nova Scotia for well over 25 years. Several years ago, she was introduced to neuro, visual rehabilitation and visual development, and she found her passion. She feels fortunate to have realized her dream of opening a specialty vision clinic in Halifax, Nova Scotia. So welcome today, Dr. Dobson.

Dr. Dobson: Thank you very much. This is very exciting for me.

Denise: Yeah, I'm very happy to be able to speak with you. I just recently read Robert Crockett's memoir, Cross-Eyed Optimist, and I thought, oh, I'd be so happy to have him on my podcast. And then realized he had already died. And I was devastated because I thought, oh, I missed my window of opportunity. And then I figured out that you were still available. I’m so happy. You were his doctor.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah.

Denise: So, at the time that he did vision therapy, he was already 70 years old, right, Right?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah.

Denise: And he was an accomplished pilot, a boat builder, businessman, and a life coach. And I wanted to read this little piece that was in to his book that was written by Dr. Susan Berry. She said that he, even though he had done all these things, he regards his acquisition of stereopsis, his ability to change lifelong visual habits in his eighth decade to be his greatest achievement. His story reminds us all that our brain remains plastic throughout life. The potential for transformation is always there, if only we can find the tools and motivation to unleash it.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah. What a statement.

Denise: Yeah, I just love that. So how did you go about meeting Buzz Crockett? Can you tell us a little bit about that.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah, I got a message, I guess. He had called my office and asked for me. And it was an interesting, interesting enough message that I thought, okay, I don't know who you are, you're not a patient of mine, but you have something intriguing. And I don't remember what that message was, but it resulted in me calling him back. And he basically kind of. He is a very unique character. And he explained what his situation was. And he said, you know, I worked hard to get in touch with you. And I said, okay. And he said, okay. Well, what I did, actually, was I looked at all the local optometrists and what their backgrounds were, what they had to say about themselves. And I chose you. And I said, oh, okay. You know that’s a lot of work, so why. And he said, well, you know, you used to be a geologist. And I said, yeah, that's right. And he said, and then you went into optometry. So, I figured that you were fairly flexible and you would be the best choice for what I'm about to ask you. So, I thought, okay, you are like, an intriguing guy, and this is really interesting. And then he said, have you read Fixing My Gaze by Sue Barry? And I said, no, but at that time, we were just starting to. Our partner and I were starting to work with people with brain injuries. And so, then I. He said, basically, you know, he's in control of the situation. He says, okay, go read the book and give me a call. So, I thought, okay, I'm going to do this. So, I read the book. It blew me away. And, you know, basically, it changed the way that I think about things and think about optometry. My understanding of the visual system changed with that book because there were so many things that we were taught were a thing like a critical period ends at a certain age, which I doubted anyway, just because of some of the experiences that I'd had. So, I was prime and ready for, you know, this new journey, although I didn't realize it at the time. And I had done some vision therapy. We learned a little bit in school, and I had done some throughout my practice, but I had no way of knowing where to start with somebody in Sue's condition. And I didn't actually even know what Buzz's situation was because I hadn't seen him as a patient either. But I was intrigued enough to find out more, basically. So that's how we met, but it took a while before we actually met in person.

Denise: Okay?

Dr. Dobson: And I had to do my homework. I had to read the book.

Denise: Right.

Dr. Dobson: And then. And I'm. I'm not sure if I had taken a course in behavioral optometry by the time I saw him. I. I think I'm. I did because I wanted to be prepared. You know, I didn't want to let this really interesting fellow down, so I needed to know more, yeah.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Dobson: And. And he, of course, gave me the line, I want to see with both eyes before I die. And I thought, okay, well, there's no pressure there. And by the way, I have cancer. And so anyway, I did my best.

Denise: So, he you gave a little bit of a deadline then, didn't he?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah.

Denise: And you weren't actually prepared to help him, right, when you first saw him, is that right?

Dr. Dobson: No, no. Behavioral optometry has different types of conditions that, that you can help with. And strabismus and amblyopia are a more advanced learning; I would say that. And so, my learning was pretty rudimentary, so I needed to get the basics in place first before I could take on something like that. And there are courses, and the courses are quite involved, and they're probably about five days or three days. And so, you know, take time out of your practice to do that and to, you know, change your model of vision takes a little time. So, it took me, well, it took me time to kind of fit all that in. And I wanted to be comfortable with this new challenge that, you know, up until 10 minutes ago, I didn't know that that problem could be solved. Right. So, yes, I. I took some time to feel comfortable, to understand things in a different way. And, you know, he was patient and waited. Right.

Denise: He describes that time frame being rather long in the book, like a year or so. Is that right?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah. So, what I did is I. After that, and then we were getting these people with brain injuries that had visual dysfunctions. So, I took a three-day course just to know a little bit more about it. And at that course, they were also talking about amblyopia and strabismus. And I just remember being completely shocked and overwhelmed that all these things that I knew as truths were no longer truths. And I didn't know what to do with that information initially. So, I thought, okay, well, I just need to start taking courses. So it was, it was 2014 when he called me first and I started to take courses. So, my first, like, initial course that really, really started the journey was in August 2014. And it was day two of this course when I had this realization that I needed to sell my practice. So that was the thought that came to me. “You need to sell your practice.” And I thought, okay, what does that mean? I've never thought of that before. I'd been in this practice 20 years and I was owner. I had a number of optometrists who were partners, but I realized that this kind of understanding could help a lot of people in a lot of situations, and nobody in Nova Scotia was doing it. So, I realized that in my current practice, it was a busy primary care practice, that there wasn't the room and space to do what I realized that I needed to do. So, it just, you know, kind of hit me like, okay, you have to sell your practice. And really, I didn't stop and think too much about it because it was. I don't know if you've ever had. It was a directive, and I didn't have the choice to say yes. Well, I could have said yes or no, but I didn't feel like it. I felt like, okay, this is what I need to do going forward. And so, in another month, I told my partners I'm going to be selling my practice. And within less than a year, I sold it to one of our associates. So, all the things kind of fell into place, you know, without me really figuring it all out yet. So, then I. I started taking the courses, and I. I took another couple that year that were five days, so takes a little while. And then when I sold the practice, I took some time, about three months, and it happened to be in the summertime, and  I took my family on a trip around the world to, you know, see things from a different perspective and help me put my mind in a different place so that I was ready for this new challenge. And so, we came back and I found a place that could work really well and had it. Had to have it renovated. So, it was May of 2016 when I saw my first patients.

Denise: Yeah, okay.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, May of 2016.

Denise: And he was one of those first patients then.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I. I called them when probably it was before the office was open and said, okay, you know, you've been really patient and let's start, because, you know, as my first and being challenging. And one of the teachers of these courses said, well, you're not supposed to start with the most difficult patient. And I said, well, he's what came. So, we're just going to wing it. You know, we're just going to see what we do. And I, you know. Buzz was so willing to, you know, do what I thought was the right course of action, and we kind of muddled our way through it, and it was amazing. Like, quite an experience, really. Yeah.

Denise: Yeah, that's. It sounds amazing.

Dr. Dobson: He.

Denise: He mentioned in his memoir that he had never even told anyone outside of his immediate family that he had strabismus. And he didn't look particularly strabismic because of the surgeries he'd had as a child. Kind of like Sue Barry, you know, they, their eyes were already aligned and so they were kind of in a good position physically. Right, to do the work.

Dr. Dobson: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Denise: So, tell, tell us a little bit about how that process went as you started that therapy with him.

Dr. Dobson: He was a life coach, and you know, I, when I do vision therapy and I probably, I guess started there, I wanted to kind of check in with how they're feeling any particular day and, and just what's going on. So, we would spend a little bit of time initially to, you know, review exercises, to talk about any things that he thought were really important. And I would explain, you know, what, what we're going to do and what the purpose of the activities were. And you know, he was, he was great at receiving all of that. He was kind of, I think, interested in a lot of the activities because they don't seem to be necessarily all eye related. And you know, there are a lot of things that we did with, you know, laterality maybe or body movement, judging space, which, you know, is certainly very visually related, but proprioceptive and all these other things. And, you know, maybe we're using both sides of the body, and one responds a little differently than the other and isn't that interesting? So, we had like, it was, he was lovely to be my first patient because we really discussed a lot of different things and he was so positive that this could actually happen. And I had never had the experience that I have made it happen or I have been instrumental in helping it happen. So, you know, I'm probably a little bit reserved or a little skeptical and you know, I understand that it can, but can I do it? Can we do it together? And yeah, so we, we kind of supported each other all the way through really. But he was great. Like all the things that we talked about and did, he's certainly game to try. Was he good at doing his homework? I think he tells us that, that, you know, as in his history, wasn't great at, you know, doing his homework at school. Well, it was, it was the same. Yeah, he would do things that he was intrigued in, things that were like. Most of the activities are pretty unusual, which is how neuroplasticity happens. You need to provide something novel, but there's a whole repetition piece and engagement piece. And he was always engaged, but he didn't really like that repetition piece because the new thing was good, but then if you're repeating it, it's not new anymore. And so it's, you know, I think he found it kind of tedious because it was challenging and I think it was frustrating for him and it probably put him back in that place in school where, you know, I have to do this and this is really boring and it's really challenging for me and, you know, I could do this instead. So, there was that part. But I knew that he was so motivated that he would find his own ways to use what I had given him, some of the tools and do something with it. So, you know, did he move along as quickly as I had anticipated? No, because, you know, he was challenging, but, he thought about things deeply and constantly, really. But there is some physical repetition that needs to happen too, which, you know, if you kind of read between the lines in his book and he'll talk about the eye-wearness and whatnot. So, he's thinking and processing things differently. And so that's an important piece for sure, right? Yeah.

Denise: So, it would have perhaps happened more quickly had he been more diligent in his homework, I guess is the point. Right.

Dr. Dobson: Presumably. But then he is 70 as well. Yeah. So how, like, does it take longer, certainly, if you're not in that “critical period.“ That's when things happen faster. So, it is somewhat critical in the speed of things, but you know, I. The speed of things still, it's still fast in the 20s and whatnot. But you know, by the time you're 70, you're used to things in a certain way and it just doesn't change as quickly. So that's a piece of it for sure, right? Yeah.

Denise: Yeah. He talks about starting to acquire some stereopsis about the time that he hit the 10-month mark. And he seemed to indicate that looking softly, just the relaxation piece was an important part for him. Was that something that he. Well, he did mention that you were the one that encouraged him to, to relax and look softly as part of therapy.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, you know, there's, there's activities in therapy and there's different tools, but there's a lot of personal approach things that make a big difference. So, breathing, like when you're concentrating on something, you tend not to breathe very much. And so being constantly reminded that let's breathe, okay, let's relax and breathe, that's so important. The other thing, when you're really concentrating on things is that you kind of lose that big perspective, or like he talks about the big sky, or peripheral awareness kind of decreases too. And when we work on things, we work hard, we make our muscles work, but it's really hard for us to relax. And just like a muscle, a muscle has to work harder, but it has to relax. And that's the way of the world, the balance of things. But if all you're doing is working harder on things, like in our normal everyday lives, there's no room for relaxation. So, what's big? We need to breathe, we need to meditate, we need to help, like, just give your brain a minute to settle. Instead of the, you know, all those things that hit you, let's just settle and let's breathe and let's see what happens. Because you need that flexibility of both those making it harder, making it softer, or making you relax a little bit more. Because the visual system sees differently when that happens. And that, you know. it kind of goes against our normal everyday approach. You know, you breathe, you work hard. Okay. And you stop breathing. And no, no relaxing. Relax. Like, who sits down and relaxes during the day? You don't think about that. You think, oh, I got to get all these things done. Right. But it just takes a minute to breathe and to move. And you know that we constantly went over that. But, yeah, that's the kind of looking soft as well.

Denise: Right. And he talks about some side effects that he experienced as a result of the therapy. Right. And he uses that big word, asthenopia. I hadn't even heard it before. Do you want to address that a little bit?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah. Asthenopia is. It's termed or defined as difficult vision. And, you know, I really feel that it's because what we're doing is thinking about things differently, seeing things differently. And maybe it's just that the brain is processing things differently, but meeting some resistance, because that's not the way I usually do it. So, you're trying harder, not letting go, not looking softer, but you're fighting that. So, when you're fighting that, you get. But this is my interpretation, you get uncomfortable vision in whatever way that happens. Sometimes it's tired eyes. Sometimes it's a little bit of a headache. Sometimes, like in Buzz's case, it's tearing and constant tearing. And the interesting thing about that is that when he was at Dr. Rob's practice and. they did jump ductions, he said after that, he didn't have as much of the uncomfortable vision or asthenopia, so he was thinking about things a little differently. Maybe he was, you know, more relaxed or he was down in the country with a big sky. Maybe he was thinking about that more and it just felt better, it was okay to not have to work as hard. That's kind of my interpretation of that. Yeah.

Denise: Okay. Yeah, well. And it sounds like there's a lot of different things that happen with that difficult vision, but he was kind of concentrating on the tearing all the time being what his was. And you mentioned he went to another doctor's practice. You want to elaborate a little bit for our listeners on who that was he went to see?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, one time in my practice, I had some of these courses, a five day course, and this particular one was on strabismus and amblyopia. And so, we had two instructors that came and Buzz was really interested, and so he asked if, you know, maybe he could meet these giants. And so, they agreed and we went out to dinner and he kind of corresponded with both of them. And in the book, he describes that he went to Phoenix and met with one of the instructors. His name is Dr. Rob Lewis. And actually interesting. It was at his office that I took that first course and had that realization that, oh, okay, I need to do this full time and sell my practice and all that, because it's, you know, things just happen for a reason. Right? Yeah, Rob is. Is amazing. And he saw Buzz. I. I'm not made like, maybe at one appointment, maybe two, but he taught him how to do jump ductions, which, like, Buzz liked particular exercises, and he just loved this one, so it really made sense to him. And that's the one that he was able to solve his asthenopia with. Like, how exactly that happened, who really knows? But I do remember Buzz saying, yeah, you know, Rob said to me, like, just do it. And he was kind of taken aback by that, you know, but that's sometimes the thing that happens that you're trying so hard. Let it go. Just see what happens. See if your brain can figure it out or figure out an alternative. And so that was really great. So, he did see Dr. Lewis for a fairly short amount of time, but then he was also doing the big sky and looking far and all that kind of thing. He also did see the other instructor in the course, and that was Dr. John Abadanza. And that was a little bit later, and he's in Massachusetts. And I think he saw him at his office. I'm not really sure where that happened. But he also saw the optometrist that Dr. Sue went to as well. And, you know, he was just so interested in meeting all these people that made something happen. And he met with Sue Barry as well. He corresponded with her a lot, but he met her in person, too. And, you know, he is just a very engaging and interesting and curious and inquisitive person. Like, especially talking about something like this that is basically unknown or unacknowledged. It's just very inspiring. You know, his journey. And he wanted to touch, you know, touch base with all of these folks. So, it was really great that he had that opportunity to see all these people and that he took it,  and he did his own thing with all the information or all the places, you know. For him, over 70 years. Like, I think this is why this is such a journey, because it completely changed his whole view of things, if I can use that term. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely amazing. Yeah.

Denise: He does mention in there also that you used the Feldenkrais

Dr. Dobson: Feldenkrais, yeah.

Denise:  method to integrate body movement and get everything working together. Do you want to elaborate on that?

Dr. Dobson: Right, yeah. Because I feel it's a whole-body approach. You know, the eyes influence the body. The body influences the eyes.  You know, sometimes you can have an injury to your body that will affect the eye or the eyes that affect the body. And certainly in Buzz's situation, that was the case. But I, you know, I realized, or I. I guess I. I had an intuition that it would make a big, big difference if he was able to have some bodywork done. And the Feldenkrais, the woman who does that, she does a form of Feldenkrais. It's called the Annat Beniel method. And she really taught Buzz a lot of things with his body. She helped him realize that, you know, not all of it was moving. Like, it wasn't symmetrical. And he had this little bit of a limp on the left side. And, you know, the left side was a whole lot tighter than the right one. So, once she was able to help him with that and he. And release some of those blocks, he was able to advance more in the vision therapy as well, because it. You know, you're  kind of working with all these different systems to come to the same conclusion. So, it was really great. It was very helpful. And he really appreciated that whole approach. Yeah, it was great.

Denise: You refer out to another person for that.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah, that's Right. And also, I work with osteopaths as well. I find that gentle movement is, can be really, really helpful too. You know, it's amazing the things that we get used to that can change. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Denise: I did some body work early on before I really got into vision therapy too. And I think all of the integration stuff just worked towards the same goal.

Dr. Dobson: Right.

Denise: And sometimes we come across it almost accidentally, but it's not really an accident.

Dr. Dobson: Right.

Denise: That all of those pieces have to happen in order for us to get where we need to go.

Dr. Dobson: Yes, yes, absolutely.

Denise: And I, I've talked to other optometrists that have done maybe some Alexander Technique or they use Somatic Yoga or, or there's other movement related options that people have used. And I think maybe each doctor comes to their own solution, perhaps, you know, what they feel drawn to, to help their patients.

Dr. Dobson: Right, right, you're right. Because there isn't just one that works. There's, there's a whole myriad and it really depends on, I think you're right about. People just kind of pop up in your life where you have opportunities and sometimes, they pop up a couple of times. And it's not until one time because I, I remember this particular practitioner, she, she had a red eye and she happened to see me and she didn't tell me that that's what she was doing because I somehow I learned about Feldenkrais method and was kind of looking for a practitioner. But she told my office manager that she, like, she gave her the card and said, you know, I do this. And then the office manager gave it to me and I said, oh my gosh. You know, like this happens at that opportune time, I think. But you know , it's whole body related, you know, it's not just one little eyeball. It's amazing. And you know, when he started to get better control and function in that left eye, his body on that side changed. And he talks about the eye opening a little bit more and his face changing. And you know, that was, you know, remember that I'm just starting this, and I don't know that much about it, but to see those changes was incredible to me. 

Denise: Yeah, 

Dr. Dobson: You know, why don't we know more? You know, that's a question that kept coming up like, oh my gosh, this guy is 70 and things are changing and we're doing it together and his body is changing and his eye, the appearance of his eye is changing. It's amazing, right? Yeah.

Denise: And he became more mindful of how everything was integrating and aware of how his vision was working in relationship to his body and, and all of it being one, one big hole as he went along.

Dr. Dobson: Right, exactly. Yeah.

Denise: And so, he says it was about the 18-month mark when he kind of graduated from vision therapy. So that's, that's a pretty good chunk of time. I mean, it's not, it didn't take that long, really, for someone who's not maybe doing their homework very well. And at the age that he was at, I mean, it took me way longer to get everything integrated and put all the pieces together. So, that really actually impresses me that it only took 18 months.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah. And I, I remember times when, like, he must have had an indication that the vision in the left eye was changing because there were, there was probably a three week period when we would, you know, we would have our conversation at the beginning of the session and it really stretched for the whole session. And you know, I'd say, okay, well, let's go. Well, you know, I just wanted to ask you about this and let's talk about that. And I thought, okay, okay, but, you know, let's, let's move on to this. And then I realized that he  was stalling, or I thought there was something kind of funny. And it was about three or four weeks later that he said, okay. I have to tell you that it's been really challenging for me this last month because I've been getting visual memories of when I was small, like before he could, he could walk. So probably one to two, sitting on the kitchen floor looking up at his mom like he had that, like, visceral kind of reaction, he said, and it brought tears to my eyes. And I'm not sure what I was feeling because his mom was a great supporter as, as you know, from the book. But he said like all of a sudden, I'd never had these memories before that I remembered and I, I had to work through them. And I think what was happening was that he was getting some, you know, they sometimes talk about memories being stuck in the muscles or something. And because things were changing, there was something new that he had to come to terms with. And so, he wasn't ready to have the two eyes work together a little bit more until he got through this period. So, you know, that was fascinating. So that was, you know, it was just a kind of a stall period. So, you know, there were some times like that or there were periods where he was just unavailable and he, he did have medical appointments and just times that he was not able to come. So sometimes there were like a couple of months or three or four months that he would be also, you know, working on his own but not seeing me regularly too. But you know, it's such a journey. It's not like going to the gym, you know. Right. Like you're not building muscles. You are like reliving your life, you are changing your processing. It's challenging. You probably found that, right? Absolutely. Your journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you gotta kind of be ready for like, wow, what was that?

Denise: Well, there was a point in time when I took a break completely because we had tried everything short of surgery and I was very resistant to surgery and, and I talk about that in, you know, one of my previous episodes, but it, it just felt like it was going to be impossible, honestly, you know, and so that's when I finally had to say, well, I need my eyes aligned. And I did the surgery, you know, and then everything worked after the surgery, very quickly.

Dr. Dobson: Okay.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Dobson: Okay.

Denise: It's, that whole putting all the pieces together and it has to go in a certain sequence and you know, you have to be ready and all of those, those things, right?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah.

Denise: So, he did say, and I want to kind of circle back to the eyewareness part, that he was being mindful all the time. Was that him doing that because of who he was or was that a piece of training that you had received that you taught him to do?

Dr. Dobson: The term is his. But we like, during the activities we would use one eye to do something, and we would use one eye like the other eye to do something else. So, he became more aware of what it's like to be looking through the right eye as opposed to looking through the left eye and leading with the left eye. So sometimes we have different colored glasses to do that where like the right eye, which was a more preferred eye, would be able to see parts of the picture as you know, and the non-preferred eye would be able to see a whole lot more details. And you know, sometimes it was mazes or sometimes it was letters and they have to, you'd have to identify what all those were like. So, the more important eye in that exercise is the non-preferred eye. So, to do the activity, you need to be using that one. So, he started to understand, oh, I can actually use that eye. Oh, I can use it with the other eye still working. Oh, that's kind of weird because, you know, you're not gonna, you don't think about it, but that's exactly what's happening. But you kind of have to realize it or go through an activity like that when you. Well, this is different. What's different about this? I can't use that eye. Oh, I can use that eye. Oh, interesting. You know, because just automatically unconsciously you think, I can't. It doesn't work. Right. But yes, it does.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah. And that's, I think, where he started to understand about looking differently and you know, the facial movement that he's no longer pointing that preferred eye at the everything. He might even do the other one. So, you know, let's, let's do those habits on the other side and see what happens there. 

Denise: Yeah. 

Dr. Dobson: Because it is, you know, as, you know, it's a much different perspective when you're looking through the preferred or the non-preferred eye. You know, those who have pretty equalized. Don't always. No, but you know, usually there's just like. I don't know how to explain it exactly. Your vision is different if it's equal in both eyes, but your processing is different. You know, even if you think about. You go up the stairs with your right foot first all the time because that's your preferred. What if you do the left foot? Oh, that's really awkward. Or you know, it's the, the whole cross your hands one way or you cross it the other way. Well, that's really awkward. Okay. No, it's just processing. It's just habits. So that's where that comes from. And it's, you know, it's great to have them both work pretty evenly.

Denise: I'm curious because talk about his right eye being his dominant eye. And my right eye was, is my dominant eye. Is it more common for people to have their right eye be their dominant eye?

Dr. Dobson: It is practice.

Denise: So, is it a brain thing that's going on?

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, and like the right hand being dominant as well. But you know, I have a number of people with strabismus that the left eye is a dominant one, but their right hand is a dominant one. So how does that work? And there's also a dominancy in your ears as well. One will be more dominant than the other and that has an effect on how things are processed. Your brain is not absolutely symmetrical. There are larger auditory centers in your left brain, which is your right ear, than the other side. So how does that affect processing? Yeah, so we're finding out with neuroscience how things actually work in there. But it's fascinating.

Denise: Is the auditory affecting the visual? And you're working with that too in your practice, as you're noticing.

Dr. Dobson: How could it not? Right.

Denise: Right, but people don’t talk about it or think about it that way.

Dr. Dobson: No, no, I know. And, and you know, that is. That is such a great comment because I have some training in multi-sensory therapy, and, you know, I knew very little about the auditory system, but learning in that program, you. You have two ears, so you have two cochlea and two vestibular systems. So, you know, you have two eyes. And I know that they don't always work together. So, what about the ears? Do they always work together perfectly? Not likely. And how do the ears work with the eyes and the vestibular system? Because those are the three big sensory systems that give you information about your world. So, they put together all these things. Well, what if those pairs don't work well together, you know, and then we have things like autism. Okay, so now we have a few more questions about these things, because what if things are received differently on one side than the other? Is that going to affect anything? Yeah, I think so. Right?

Denise: Right.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah, I know, like, for me, it was, you know, an eye opener that. Oh, the auditory system. Yeah. Two of them. Yeah. They probably don't work the same way.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Dobson: You know, and then there's a lot of, like, with the brain injuries, there's a lot of people who have dizziness and nausea, and the vestibular system and the ocular system work very closely together. And so, if the eyes are off a little bit, or the visual and the vestibular system are off, then your sense of space and balance is like, way off or. Okay, that makes sense. So, what do we do about that? And we can do things about that, you know, which is, you know, probably you found when you were recovering that sometimes you felt a little bit off balance and maybe a little bit nauseous or, you know, just not right. You know, I'm just not right. Like, what do I say? What are the words that I use? Well, we may not have them. I'm just not right. Okay. And now I'm right. Okay, good. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? But, yeah, the whole auditory system.

Denise: Yeah. It's just amazing. I think there's going to be so many light bulb moments as people delve into this more, you know, and really understand. And one of my frustrations as I'm doing this podcast is how do I explain what all is going into this in a way that people understand when they haven't listened to all of it, right?

Dr. Dobson: um

Denise: Because we talk about so many of these things, how we're integrating, how we need to integrate everything. And no one actually experiences that when they go to the eye doctor or when they go to their general practitioner, or when they go to the ear doctor.

Dr. Dobson:Right.

Denise: Because there's no one talking about our body as a whole.

Dr. Dobson: Right, right. I know, it's. That's a fascinating piece that, you know, When I first realized, oh, yeah, two years, you know, I'm thinking, of course, two years, but why don't we know? Like, why didn't somebody teach us this? But, you know, when, when you're specialized in an area you know more and more about less and less, and you don't really think about the whole integration, like that is so important. It's so important. And you know, there are so many labels and terms that have, have been assigned to people because something's not working properly. But like, let's go back to the basics, like how. What's coming in and what do they understand? You know, do the two eyes work together, do the two ears work together, do the vestibular systems work together, plus blood pressure and all those different things. But those sensory things, we just take for granted that they work like a regular eye exam. Well, you can see fine with or without glasses, but we're talking about how the eyes function together. Do they function together? Turns out they don't. Is that going to influence things? No, not really, or absolutely. Right? Yeah. 

Denise: Yeah. Well, like, I think everyone has experienced going to an eye doctor and having that exam and having them say, well, you're seeing fine, or I'll give you this prescription so you see fine. And I was told I was fine for all of my life, you know, and not for a second was it true, you know, until after I figured out how to use my eyes together with vision therapy.

Dr. Dobson: Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is amazing. Yeah.

Denise: So, do you have some thoughts or recommendations for people who are wondering if this is something that they need or some they maybe need it for someone that they love?

Dr. Dobson: Well, yeah, I just, I have maybe kind of a summary thought and I just want people to think about things a little bit differently, maybe just to be curious and inquisitive about, you know, anything that maybe sparks some interest, like, oh, I never thought about that before because it turns out that visual processing can influence many areas of your life, and life can influence visual processing, but auditory and vestibular as well. I'll throw that one in there. Many people have regular primary eye care exams and understand that their visual systems are highly functioning, but this is not often the case. The eyes are healthy and their eyesight and acuity is good. That's what that means. You passed your eye exam, so you can see well. Your eyes are healthy. That's excellent. But are they functioning as well together as they could? Often not. To determine this, you must see a behavioral optometrist or a developmental optometrist who looks more closely at how the two eyes team and function together. Does it take time to change that process? Absolutely, yes. Does it take effort? You can tell us that? Definitely. Is engagement a factor? Undoubtedly. Is it worth it? Read Buzz's book. Read your blog.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Dobson: You know, right. Is it life changing?

Denise: Absolutely.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah. Right. But it is. It's just a little bit challenging because you think, you know, you go to the dentist and your teeth are okay. You go to the optometrist, everything is fine there. But there's another whole step, there's another whole world. And turns out that if you do go to an ophthalmologist or another specialist, they might also see things as being fine. But what about that functionality?  That is in the world of the optometrist.  And you won't know unless you know. Right. And looking for a functional optometrist or like, there's all these words, behavioral or developmental is absolutely worthwhile. And, you know, thank goodness for the Internet. Sounds like I'm old, but I could be. But like, googling that there's all kinds of sources of, you know, directories in the States and in Canada of people who can help. 

Denise: Absolutely. 

Dr. Dobson: Denise, I really appreciate being. Having the opportunity to talk with you and meet with you today. I just wanted to thank you so much for being able to be part of this podcast because I feel that the word needs to get out. And, you know, if we reach one person today, it's all worth it because there are so many things that can be done, and it is so life changing. And there are lots of people who are really happy to help. And, you know, I am. I'm lucky to count myself one of those people. You know, just. Buzz was my first and biggest success. Yeah.

Denise: Well, 

Dr. Dobson: so far. 

Denise: So far, I was gonna say. And you're doing a lot with rehabilitation on injuries and that as well as the strabismus and amblyopia piece.

Dr. Dobson: Yes.

Denise: Right.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah.

Denise: Yeah. That's got to be life changing for a lot of people. And when that, you may not always know.

Dr. Dobson: Yeah.

Denise: They're not all writing a book about it, you know, but you're changing a lot of lives, and it's wonderful.

Dr. Dobson: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I've. I've really appreciated the time today, and I appreciate this opportunity because you're right. There are things we have to do. Right?

Denise: Yeah. And when you said that you knew you had to change, you had to sell your practice and do this instead, I felt the same way about starting this podcast, just to get the word out, you know? So, I appreciated that a lot.

Dr. Dobson: Right. That's cool. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Denise: Thank you.

 Thank you for listening to the Healing Our Sight podcast. I'd love to hear from you. If you like this episode, please share it. And please join our Facebook community at Healing Our Sight to leave suggestions or comments. Have a great day.