The Cross-Eyed Optimist: Robert (Buzz) Crockett's 3D Journey with Gina Brown

Gina Brown, wife, editor and publisher for Robert (Buzz) Crockett tells what it was like to experience his journey to 3D with him.  You will love as she shares his excitement and joy in seeing depth at last and in sharing his story through his book.

Robert Crockett's book:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=robert+crockett+cross-eyed+optimist&crid=214N732REW4ZD&sprefix=robert+crockett+cross-eyed+optim%2Caps%2C225&ref=nb_sb_noss
Gina Brown's website: https://www.novaheartmedia.com/gina-brown

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Transcript

Denise: Welcome today to the Healing, our site podcast. I'm your host, Denise Allen, and I'm happy to introduce you today to Gina Brown. She is the wife of Robert Brian Crockett, the Cross-Eyed Optimist. Those of you who've been following the podcast will realize that that was my last episode where I spoke with Dr. Angela Dobson, his developmental optometrist. Today we're getting the at-home perspective. Gina is also the editor and publisher of his memoir, which is entitled Cross-Eyed Optimist: How I Learned to See in 3D and Straightened My Eyes with Vision Therapy. Welcome, Gina.

Gina: Thank you. It's great to be here.

Denise: So happy you're willing to come on and talk with me today. People are going to think that I'm spending a lot of time on this story, but I feel like it's really moving and important and that we can learn a lot from what he had to go through in order to get to 3D like I did and some others that I've talked to. What would you say your first thought was when Buzz told you that he wanted to see in 3D?

Gina: Well, it's really interesting just to back up a little bit. We met late in life, so that was in 2012. We were both divorced, and when we met, we just started dating. So, we didn't get into a lot of specifics because he had two things going on. One was that he had been diagnosed with prostate cancer, and the second one was he didn't see in 3D, which I didn't know. So, when you're dating, you don't kind of spill out all of those things immediately. So, I would say a few months went by before we kind of got into some of that. And frankly, I was surprised about his 3D. It didn't change how I felt about him, but I've learned so much just from being with him. And one of the things I learned is that he had two surgeries before the age of five, and physically they straightened his eyes, but it didn't correct his vision problem. So, to my face, when I was looking at his face, he looked like he had regular vision, normal vision, so I didn't think anything of it. And then I can't remember how long we were together when he kind of introduced the idea that he didn't see in 3D, and even that alone, I was thinking, what does that actually mean? And the best way he could describe it was that he kind of sees things flat and doesn't see the depth and the perspective. So, I was shocked by that, especially given his profession. He was a number of things, but one of them was a master boat builder, which required incredible acuity with curves, mathematics and all kinds of things. So, it was quite a revelation to me.

Denise: I think that it's something that very few people really understand, that we think that everyone sees the way we do so the 90 some odd percentage of the population that does see in 3D assumes that's how everyone sees.

Gina: Yes.

Denise: And it really has more of an effect on your life than people realize. But we also accommodate for it. Right. And so, he clearly had accommodated really well in his profession for that challenge.

Gina: Yeah, what I understood is that he learned to suppress I guess it would be his left eye. So, his right eye was dominant. And even that alone, if you think about the energy it must take to suppress an eye, keep it open so that you look, we'll say, quote, normal. And, I mean, he had been doing it all his life. It's an incredible thought. And one of the funny things he told me, I said, well, give me some examples of what it means to not see in 3D. And he said, well, I went to an IMAX film that was in 3D, and everyone was all excited about things flying around in the audience and all this. And he said, I was sitting there thinking, I don't get it. What's the big deal? But he couldn't see in 3D.

Denise: Exactly. Yeah, that was definitely one of the things that I was frustrated with, too. And so, when I gained 3D and I could go to a movie it was a big deal 

Gina:  Wow. Yeah, it's incredible.

Denise: So, had he thrown out the idea of wanting to see in 3D before he started looking for the optometrist?

Gina: Yes, he did. And I was trying to think about the timeline for that, and I would say it was several months earlier that he had mentioned it. And then he started his search, which took a long time because Buzz was an unusual person in that when he was tackling a topic or a medical issue or whatever, he wanted to become very well versed in it. And he did a lot of research. So, we lived in Nova Scotia, Canada, and so it's not like the states where there's a lot of care professionals. So, what he had to do was go recruit an optometrist to become a behavioral optometrist. And so that journey took a long time. So, he talked to a number of optometrists who kind of said, no, I don't think so. They weren't even open to it. A number of them said, well, that's the way it is with your eyes. You just have to accept it. And he was 70 at the time, so I'm sure some of them even had a bit of a I don't know, chuckle over it. But they didn't know Buzz. And they said, well, I'm sorry, I can't help you. And then that's when he finally found Angela Dobson, who was very open minded. And if it wasn't for her, I don't think he ever would have seen In 3D.

Denise: Yeah, well, and she may not have known that he had talked to so many other optometrists before he found her.

Gina: He probably shared that with her at some point, I don't know when, but.

Denise: She didn't share it last week. So that's good information for us. He was very persistent in finding someone, obviously.

Gina: Yes.

Denise: I think that too often people take the first or second doctor's opinion as the way it is. And that's something that we have brought out more than once on my podcast, that sometimes you just have to talk to enough people to find what you're looking for to find that right. That person who actually can help you.

Gina: Yes, especially in that world. And I'm not a specialist in optometry or ophthalmology, so I don't know all the right terms, but especially, you know, that age group where they say there's an optimum time for getting your vision corrected. I think it's like around ten years old or something. So that's another kind of cut off point for many people where they say it's too late. And he learned a lot about neuroplasticity and Dr. Dobson certainly is very well versed in that. And that's when he learned that your brain can continue to develop, grow, change, shift, and that's what gave him hope that he might be able to do it for himself. So, I think any of your listeners who are going through their own challenges, I hope they will continue to pursue different avenues to see if they can find a solution. I realize people will have various situations, so I would really encourage people to not necessarily say there is a cutoff point, not necessarily say it has to be this or it has to be that, but just kind of keep pursuing until you find what works for you.

Denise: Right, exactly. I agree. So, there was some time in between when he talked her into learning this whole thing and when they started working on it. Right. What was he doing in that intervening time as she was learning to be a behavioral optometrist?

Gina: Well, Dr. Dobson was smart enough to give him a few things to work on while she was away. She did some traveling and she did some learning to become a specialist. And he had the classic brock string, which was in his office the whole time, and she gave him a couple more things for him to work on. And as he admits fully in the book, he wasn't very good at doing his homework. So, if I'm going to be kind, during that time, he probably did mostly research as opposed to kind of working on exercises. He did do his Brock String, but that's about it. He didn't really do the other things and it's kind of a shame, but he was on his own path, and he had to figure it out the way he did. And sometimes when he did things, it reminded him know, as he said all his life, he felt broken because of his vision issues. So, without Dr. Dobson being there initially, while she was away and upgrading. He was just on his own, so to speak. So that's one reason why he didn't really do an awful lot and he still didn't do enough when she came along, but he did a lot more.

Denise: Well, I think that sometimes we discount what's going on internally. There can be a lot of changes going on internally as we're preparing, or it may look like we're not doing anything because I feel like to a certain extent, I may not have spent as much time on exercises as I probably should have. Even I have friends who spend way more time on it. I guess I compare myself. Right. And maybe each person's journey is totally fine, and it takes the amount of time it takes maybe for a reason, right. Because he had some emotional things that he needed to work through that were connected with that. So, it's nice to give ourselves a little grace with that.

Gina: Yes. And I think Dr. Dobson, that was one reason they worked so well together. She was not judgmental. Never once did she say, you didn't do your homework, or that kind of thing. She kind of met him where he was on his journey, which was incredible, and I think he responded better that way than if someone had given him a hard time about it.

Denise: Yeah, well, some of the exercises were so difficult for me, particularly the Brock string, which I found out about very early on also. I really couldn't do it at all. It was not budging. It was I'm stuck right there. I have three D twelve inches out. That's where I could actually see the cross was about twelve inches. And I started my journey there and it didn't budge at all. Well, maybe, I don't know, six or eight inches until after I had surgery. And so, I set it aside. I didn't even do it for a really long time because it was so discouraging. So, there's a lot of pieces to consider as you're looking at that. Did you go to any of the in-office training with him, or was that just his thing? And he went did I did do.

Gina: A tour of the place after his first visit. He was very enthusiastic. He certainly didn't want me there, which is fine, I completely understand that. But I went in and had a look, and she actually had an open house because she had just opened anyway, and it was wonderful. But the one place where I did have an interesting experience was in 2019, I think it was, or 18. We went to Arizona and New Mexico and he met with Dr. Rob Lewis, who was an expert in that field. We went to his office and because we were traveling, I was there and Dr. Lewis said, well, you can just sit in and watch. And I mean, watching the two of them,  entirely different from Dr. Dobson, but really interesting because Buzz was used to learning something and almost becoming an expert in it. And the minute he went into Dr. Lewis's office, he kind of, you know, realized like, this guy knows a lot, you know, Dr. Lewis was correcting him and saying, no, do this. But it was great. And I just loved watching it. And I could see Buzz was at first feeling a little, I don't know, sheepish, like I don't know as much. But then once he got going, he just was learning so much from Dr. Lewis as well as Dr. Dobson. So, it was a great experience. So, I took notes and some photos in his office. So, it was really an interesting moment.

Denise: That is cool. We kind of talked a little bit about how he wasn't very good about doing his at-home exercises. But tell us a little bit about how you supported and encouraged him in that as he was going through.

Gina: Well, what I learned quickly was he didn't want any, I called it encouragement, he called it nagging. So, the first few times, like when Dr. Dobson was away and upgrading, and I would say, hey, how'd it go today? Did you do your Brock String or whatever? And after about second time, you no, no, this isn't going to work. You can't keep asking me that every day. I can't cope with that. But what we did end up doing was having conversations about it, more the philosophy. I had no idea how complex vision is. I'm one of these people who, I wear glasses but really didn't have any problems in life. And I had no idea. It's not just two eyes. It's balance, it's the space around you. It's your eyes working together. It's your muscles, it's your brain, it's the neurotransmitters. So, I was learning all of that. We ended up having quite a few conversations about that, which I found fascinating. And I think that actually served him better than me just kind of going and saying, did you do your exercises? I mean, he showed me how the Brock String worked, but it was in his office. And then when he was doing it, I just kind of left him to his own activities. And it worked out well. 

Denise: Yes. At one point you said that you went on walks with him as he was doing his discovery. Can you tell us a bit about that part of things?

Gina: Yeah, one of the things I learned quickly was, and he told me, was to learn to see in 3D. He really appreciated going and seeing big things. He loved being in nature. Nova Scotia is on the ocean and there's a lot of forests, so there's a lot of really great places to walk. Our neighborhood had trees that were 60 to 100ft high and they're big and glorious. And so, we would go walking in the neighborhood a lot. And he would often wear that prism item in his eyeglasses. I don't know much about that.

Denise: Was it a stick-on prism that he would just put on one of the lenses?

Gina: Exactly. And it was set to his eye or something like that. So, we did a lot of those activities. He loved being in nature, so we did lots of walks by the ocean in the forest. And then the other really interesting experience was when we went to western US. And went to Arizona and New Mexico and he talked about the Big Sky, which was exciting for me as well. But for him, when we got there, we went to Monument Valley and all the mesas and all the various geological things to look at. They were just massive and they just took up so much space. The colors were vivid. So those kinds of things, they were great experiences for both of us.

Denise: That is cool. There was also some outside therapy that he did that Dr. Dobson referred him to, right. And one of them was Feldenkrais.

Gina: Yeah.

Denise: Tell us a little bit about how that went.

Gina: Well, that was a really interesting experience. So, Dr. Dobson has a number of healthcare professionals that she's affiliated with. So, she talked to Buzz about Feldenkrais, which is the use of the body as part of the whole thing because one of the terms I learned was proprioception, which I didn't know before I met Buzz. But it's like negotiating the space around you. And so, one of the things I noticed, and I maybe should have mentioned earlier when we first met and started dating, one of the kind of triggers that something was different. He and I both were excited about doing tango dancing, so we took tango lessons. And as a kid I studied dance, so I was pretty comfortable learning new dance steps. But one of the things that kept happening with him is I felt like we just kept going sideways and I thought, this is really odd. I felt like we weren't in sync and I was blaming myself and he was blaming himself. And it wasn't until he started all of that work that we said, well, maybe it's part of, you know, the proprioception and his balance. So, Feldenkrais uses methodologies that bring into play all the things like your balance, your muscles, your sight. And he was so enthusiastic about it that he paid the woman for me to have a session so I could see what it was like. And it was really amazing because one of the things I'm very enthusiastic about I believe that there's an incredible relationship between mind, body and healing. And I think that there's so many things we can do to help heal our bodies in a number of ways. So, I'm not sure how long he worked with Tatiana. It was a long time, maybe six or eight months. And I can't remember how often he went. It might have been once a month, but I'm not sure. But that is one of the places where some of the traumatic pain came through his body and in his cells. And he talked about one day just crying. And it was just this incredible release of some of the trauma he felt. Because one of the things we talked about was, he had surgery to straighten his eyes as a child, so his vision looked straight. But for him, it wasn't he wasn't seeing the way everybody else was, so he always felt broken. That's how he described himself most of his life. So, I don't know what it was about Feldenkrais, but it seemed to release some of the pain and trauma that he was feeling. And he ended up talking to me about his childhood and some of the pain he felt then. So, it was a very interesting therapy. I mean, I think there are probably a number of modalities that could help somebody who's getting vision therapy, but that was one that he pursued, and it really was an interesting process for him.

Denise: Amazing. Yeah. I may have to delve into that more deeply on another episode because it really does sound like it made a big difference for him.

Gina: Yes. And I was very fascinated to try it myself. I have my own little athletic injury, so I think it's always interesting to try these things to see. You never know what's going to help. Some things help certain people. Some people are helped a lot by acupuncture or massage or osteopathy or whatever. So this one happened to I think it was very complementary to what Dr. Dobson was doing. It just kind of expanded her therapy to another level.

Denise: Yeah. So, it's movement based. And you want to tell us a little bit about how the movement was so that we can understand it a little more?

Gina: Yes. When I did the session with her, some of it's standing, some of it's sitting and she uses it's a bit like manipulation in the way not a chiropractor, because they do their adjustments and you kind of hear the pop. It's not that. It's more like somewhere in between a massage therapist and an osteopath. But she sets you in certain positions and then works for the body to release. I would be stiff in certain angles, probably from an injury or whatever, and she would use her hands to kind of hold it in a place that would almost encourage or nudge your body to release that. So, for me, it got rid of quite a bit of stiffness. And I think our muscles, not only do we hold trauma, but we sometimes hold ourselves. We're almost compensating for something else. So, if I go back to the tango dancing, his body was trying desperately to keep his balance, to keep straight. He was supposed to be the leader as the man in tango, although that doesn't matter. But in that context, that was his job, to be the lead on it. So, if you think about how hard his muscles were working to deliver that experience. It must have been very stressful. So, Feldenkrais seems to help release some of that tension stiffness. And it could be joints, it could be muscles, it could be tendons, it could be ligaments. So, it's kind of an interactive. There's quite a bit of engagement with the patient, some sitting up, some lying down, and they fully understand when people start crying. I mean; I guess that's not unheard of. So, it was a very physical experience.

Denise: Yeah. And that helped align his body better.

Gina: Yes.

Denise: And in turn, helped his eyes to be able to work together.

Gina: Work together. I think that's one of the key phrases, getting his eyes to work together.

Denise: Right, exactly. Um, was he pretty vocal about sharing his, AHA moments when he did start to see in 3D?

Gina: Oh, yes, if you ask his friend. And the funny thing about that was you're sort of thinking of something big and spectacular, like fireworks. And fortunately, unfortunately, whatever, his first 3D moment was with a nail clipper, he was clipping his nails and his eyes, what they say, popped. That's sometimes the terminology when you go from not seeing in 3D to seeing 3D. And he was in his office, and he jumped up and he ran out and told me, and he was crying. I mean, he said to me, when he started this whole journey to correct his vision at the age of 70, he said he probably cried more than his entire life because things just kept triggering emotions. Some were joyful, some were sad, but this day it was joyful. And so, then he just wanted to see everything in 3D, so he didn't automatically switch over to seeing everything in 3D. From the day his eyes first popped, it kind of came and went. Another thing was, we live in City Halifax, and there's a large bridge with huge steel twisted cables. And I can remember us driving across a bridge and him just pointing madly. I mean, we crossed that bridge thousands of times and he said, oh my God, look at the metal, it's all twisted. So, he's very excited. And another one was snow, because we definitely have snow here, and snow is so beautiful as it is, but if you stand in snow where you haven't seen it in 3D, and I know anyone who's read Susan Barry's book Fixing My Gaze, that was her first experience of seeing in 3D, was a snowstorm. And it was very emotional for her and just such a beautiful thing. So, snow is big leaves falling because he would see things coming and going. It was great. And then he would text his kids or phone somebody, whoever would listen, he'd tell them about it. He was very excited.

Denise: That is awesome. It's so fun to hear those emotional AHA moments.

Gina: I just wish his mother could have seen.

Denise: Oh, yeah. Well, I loved that he dedicated the book to her as well as to you. And it was nice because he dedicates it to her and then to Dr. Dobson and then to you and to Susan Barry. And then he says to all, especially children who live with strabismus and to those who love them. I don't want any strabismics or parents to deprive themselves or their loved ones of stereopsis. It is a true gift of sight. So, I thought that was a beautiful dedication and it's so fun to talk to you about all of that and how much it meant to him. Now, you were his editor and his publisher as well, right?

Gina: Yes, and editor only in the sense of pulling it all together. He was actually a very good writer, and we had to accommodate because by then he was, you know, quite ill with prostate cancer which led to a lot of other medical issues. But he did come from a family of writers, so it seemed to come pretty easy to him. His father, James Crockett, was a very well-known gardener. He wrote the Time Life Encyclopedia of Gardening, and his son wrote a book, Fair Wind and Plenty of It, about his sailing around the world on a tall ship. And his mom had typed in his dad's manuscript. So, when I worked with Buzz, he was becoming more and more ill. So, he had one of those medical beds that go up so you can go to almost sitting. So, I don't know how we figured it out. But what we do is when he was ready to write is we put that up. I would sit with the laptop, and he would basically dictate it to me. I'm a writer. I have no idea how he did this. But he would lie there or rest his head and think about it and then he would just state a sentence fully formed, grammatically correct and it was really good. I pointed out a few things and more ways to just enhance the experience, but he didn't need any help with the grammar or editing or proofreading. We did hire a proofreader at the end, but that's how we wrote it. And it was over about four months because he had started it and had abandoned it, which he kind of laughed about. He said, I didn't do my homework there either. But to his credit it was because he wasn't able to. He had so many intervening moments. But then we got this idea, well, let's get this finished. And so, I said, well, how about you dictate to me and I can type really fast. And that's what we did. And he didn't write a long memoir, and I think that was good. He said, I'm only going to write what I feel is necessary and if it's not that long, well, too bad. I said,” just write whatever works for you.” And so, he did. And I actually think it turned out really well, especially for people who have their own vision challenges. Some people don't want to read a 300-page book. Now, we had planned for him to do an audio recording, but sadly that wasn't meant to be. Maybe someday his son will record it for him. But anyway, so he wrote a brief, but he felt it covered all the basis of what he had in his head. So yeah, I think that was over about four months. And then I hired a designer to design the cover. I formatted it and then I got it all together and then I put it on Amazon and bookstores and all of that so, when we had to accelerate it. But the really exciting thing was that came out in April or May, and then he passed away in September of 2021. And he had time to, he signed about 40 books. We sent them out to people. He had a chance to do a few things like that, and then we just had to stop. But it was such a treat to see it come in the mail, the box of books, once they were all published and ready to go. I took a picture of him and it's actually on Amazon, the website, on his author profile, and it was the day the books arrived. And he's holding it up, and it's so funny because he was wearing a t-shirt and suspenders and of course, me being a marketing person, I said, do you want to go change your shirt or whatever. And he said, no, if we don't do this now, I'm not doing it. So, I took the picture and it was actually beautiful. I loved it. And I thought if he had put on an Oxford shirt, it would have looked, you know, more professional, but it wouldn't have been him. So, it turned out really well. So, we were a good team that way.

Denise: That is so fun. I was so sad when I heard that he wasn't around to do this with me, but I'm so glad that you were able to help him do that before he passed. That's beautiful.

Gina: And I've had a number of people that have gotten in touch and they're very excited to talk to him, and I have to let them know he passed away. And he would have loved talking to people. He would have enjoyed talking to you, anybody, especially someone who was either trying or had conquered it. He would have been very excited about it. But one of the things he did say to me in putting out the book, it wasn't about the money. What He would be really thrilled, he said, if just one person was helped by this book. Well, I've already had ten or twelve people get in touch with me. And then in addition to that, there are, I'm sure, other people. And he wasn't trying to say, you should do this or you should do that, but it was you should pursue something to help you, give you the chance to see the way you deserve to see. And that was his goal. So, he's achieved that. It kind of rolls on. Yeah. So, it's been great.

Denise: Do you want to share any specifics on any of those people who've contacted you?

Gina: Yeah, so a couple of friends, and I didn't know but one friend, her husband. I had met him, but I didn't know it. He was an engineer, and he had strabismus. I believe he had a cross eye. I had no idea. And he hadn't read a book in 40 years except technical books, nonfiction or whatever. And my friend was so moved by the book because she read it to support me, and then she said, Wait a minute, my husband has this. So he actually sat down and read it. And then he did have a chance to talk to Buz about it. They had a great conversation, and he was thinking about doing something about it. I don't know if he did. I have another friend who has a granddaughter who has, I guess what's called lazy eye, and she is trying to get her daughter to do something other than just put a patch on it or just wear glasses. I had a guy in Texas write to me, and he told me something really interesting. He said he was in his 40s, he had perfectly good sight, but during COVID he got COVID and developed strabismus, which shocked him. So, he was reading every book he could get his hands on about it because he knew nothing. And he read Buzz's book. So, he was one of the ones that wrote to me and was all excited to talk to Buzz and couldn't. I had another woman who was a teacher who was so amazed to learn about this, and she said, many teachers see this in the classroom, where a child is struggling. Sometimes it's vision, sometimes it's other things. And she thought back, and she was so sad about all the children back 30, 40 years where they were described as problems or behavioral problems, when in fact it was an eye problem and kids not wanting to read. I mean, Buzz talks about that in his book where when he was forced to read things, it was very hard for him. And I'm still amazed when I think about someone with a turned-in eye or turned-out eye trying to focus on text on a page. It must be I'm sure you probably have experienced that. And this teacher was so enthusiastic, she sent a copy to one of the royals in England, Duchess, I can't think of, Duchess Sophie of Sussex or whatever, whose charity is eye issues. So, she helps people with eye issues. So, she sent her a book. She got a nice note back from Buckingham Palace saying, thanks, but I have no idea if she actually read it. But it was such a sweet thing for her to do. She was very enthusiastic. So, yeah, there's been all kinds of things like that. And I just noticed yesterday on Amazon Canada under Ophthalmology Medical Surgery Books, his book is number three in the bestseller list.

Denise:  Nice.

Gina: Which is really mean that's in Canada, the US is totally different. But yeah. So, I feel like even if people just think about other ways of approaching their issue, it's a great legacy of his.

Denise: It is. I love it. That's wonderful. Do you have any final words of wisdom that you want to share as far as what would Buzz tell people right now if he were here to do that.

Gina: Well, I think probably we touched on a little bit earlier is never give up. And he did that entirely throughout his life. I met him when he was, I guess, 66. I was 54. So, he was 13 years older, 12, 13 years older than me. But he had done that his entire life. One of the things he was quietly proud of, he got an MBA in 2002, and he was the first MBA in University of South Florida to be accepted without an undergraduate degree. So, of course, the first time he applies, they're kind of going, well, you don't have an undergraduate degree. Because he had dropped out. He certainly had the smarts, but he stuck with it and then, of course, graduated near the top of his class, from what I recall, did very well. He became a pilot and when you had eye issues back then, you couldn't become a pilot. So, he did all of that. That was his dream, to be a pilot. The boat builder, era, that was probably about 20 years and he built many boats. And again, it's like he just tackled all of the things that you were led to believe weren't possible. So I think the one piece of advice for everybody is just keep pursuing it and see if you can conquer your own dream, whatever it is, and whatever gives you that satisfaction, that you've actually taken action and solved an issue. And he was very moved by Susan Barry's story because they had a very similar trajectory, especially that the teacher told her mother she was a dim bulb and she became a neuroscientist. So, she and Buzz had the same kind of feistiness about, you have to make yourself heard. You can't just accept the first thing you're told, according to doctors back in the early, late 40s, early 50s. That's the way it is. You just have to accept it, move on.

Denise: It's not just back then.

Gina: Oh, really?

Denise: Yeah. I feel like there's still doctors that tell you you're fine, you don't need anything. When I took my daughter, who I shared in another episode, is like Mini-Me. I took her to a regular optometrist who told me that she was fine. By the time she saw this particular doctor, she had been in glasses for a while, but she got glasses at age three like I did, because of the eye turn. And so, it's a different scenario than Dr. Barry and Buzz had as far that they had the infantile variety. We had the early childhood accommodation kind of a thing. And he told me she was fine. I knew she wasn't fine, you know, she was just like me. And I didn't know there was vision therapy and the doctors that sort of know about it. He told me he knew about vision therapy, that he had done something early on in his career with vision therapy and that we didn't need it. That shouldn't happen. Right. This was probably 2011, 2012. Yeah. It's overdue that people know that it works and that they can find a doctor to pursue it with. Right? It’s past time.

Gina: Yes. And have it part of the whole system as opposed to it being seen as a fringe alternative. Yes, exactly. And good for you, because if you didn't have that experience, you might have just stuck with it and said, yes, okay, glasses for her. And that's it. That's pretty shocking and I should know better, but I guess it's still true now. Yeah. Maybe you could forgive it a little more back then. But now, from what I understand, about 4% of the population has some kind of eye issue.

Denise:  I think that it's actually much higher than that because we're talking 4% is probably strabismics like me. Okay.

Gina: Right.

Denise: It could be a little higher than that. But there's also convergence insufficiency that's a larger percentage of the population than people recognize.

Gina: And that's what breaks my heart. Like some parts of his book where he talks about being at school in Massachusetts and baseball team or whatever and someone throws a ball and it just sort of drops and the embarrassment and shame because that's the all-American kind of game. And he just felt so much shame from it and not being coordinated to do all those other things. And that makes me so sad because it's enough work as it is for a child to feel safe and secure in situations growing up, but to have that reminder all the time or being teased. I mean, I remember kids when I was little that had some eye issues and of course, sadly they were made fun of. I mean, I didn't do that because my mom was a nurse, but it was very common. Well, kids can be pretty cruel. They tease you about just about everything. But it makes me so sad when I think about how some of them must suffer. Because I think he sounds like he thought about it his entire life and there was never the right time. And I think the wake up call for him was with prostate cancer. He was thinking about what do I want to do before I'm gone? And that was it.

Denise: Well, it was also finding out that you can do something late in life, right? From reading Sue's book and getting that, what a push, I think.

Gina: What a revelation. Well, thank you for what you do, because going to be helping a lot of people and giving them hope and hopefully pursuing until they find what's right for them. That's all we could hope for, right?

Denise:  Yeah. Thank you. 

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