Perspectives from the Field, an Interview with Paul Toriello

In this episode we interview Dr. Paul Toriello, Assistant Dean for Clinical Graduate Programs here at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine. Prior to joining the University of South Carolina in July of 2023, Dr. Toriello served as the Chair of the Department of Addictions and Rehabilitation Studies at East Carolina University beginning in 2012, where he also held an academic appointment at the rank of professor. Prior leadership roles at East Carolina University include five years as Director of the PhD in Rehabilitation Counseling and Administration program and three years as Interim Assistant Dean for Research and Grant Administration in the College of Allied Health Sciences. 

In the field of research and patient care, he has started two student-operated, faculty-directed counseling clinics, and has a long history of successful funding for research grants focused on innovative interventions for persons with co-occurring addictions and mental health issues. Dr. Toriello has taught broadly at the undergraduate, master's, and doctoral levels over the past two decades. He is the past president of the American Rehabilitation Counseling Association.

Check us out at https://linktr.ee/UofSCRehabCounseling

Transcript

Perspectives From the Field, an Interview wit Paul Toriello

Mike Walsh: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to Rehabilitation Counseling today. We are joined today by Dr. Paul Toriello, uh, Dr. Toriello Joined the university. Uh, what's it been a couple of years now? 

Paul Toriello: No, well, a year and 41 days. 

Mike Walsh: Wow. Who's counting, right? Gotcha. Well, let me, let me introduce you to Paul. Uh, Dr. Paul Toriello serves as the assistant dean for clinical graduate programs and is also a clinical professor in the department of neuropsychiatry and behavioral sciences.

At the school of medicine, Columbia, before joining the school of medicine, Columbia, Dr. Toriello served as the chair of the department of addictions and rehabilitation studies at East Carolina university for 11 years. Other leadership roles at East Carolina University included five years as director of the PhD in rehabilitation counseling and administration program.

And three years as the interim assistant dean for research and grant administration in the college of allied health sciences, Dr. Toriello has led his team through accreditation by the council on it for [00:01:00] accreditation of counseling and related educational programs. He also served as the founding member.

Of his college's task force for interdisciplinary education. Dr. Toriello started two student operated faculty, directed counseling clinics, and has a long history of successful funding for grant projects focused on innovative interventions for persons with co occurring addictions and mental health issues.

Dr. Toriello taught broadly at the undergraduate masters and doctoral levels since 2001, and he's past president of the American Rehabilitation and Counseling Association. Dr. Toriello has been married to his wife, Kathy, since 1995, and they have two sons, Atticus and Gabe. Dr. Toriello has a love hate relationship with disc golf.

We'll get to that later. Enjoy his mountain biking and spending time with his two dogs, Hazel and Luna. So Dr. Toriello, welcome. Glad you're with us. 

Paul Toriello: Thank you very much, Dr. Walsh. I appreciate you having me. 

Mike Walsh: Of course, of course. So and you and I have talked a little bit. Well tell me a little bit about this love hate relationship with disc golf you have.

Paul Toriello: Oh boy. So [00:02:00] Oh, five years ago, I was just way out of shape. Not that I'm in great shape today, but I was particularly out of shape and wanted something new to do for exercise. I hate going to the gym. I hate quote unquote, working out or exercising, but the jury's back, you know, we need to move and my family and I are getting ready to sell a house just to downsize.

Some empty nest stuff was going on with our kids and we're like, okay, it's time to downsize. Anyway, we had a gentleman come over to help us stretch our carpeting to make it look better for a showing. I know this is 2018 or 19 somewhere around then. 

Mike Walsh: That's a good trick. Yeah. 

Paul Toriello: Yes, and he was good. And next thing I know we're both just commiserating about how we both hate exercising and going to the gym.

And he says, 

Mike Walsh: sure, 

Paul Toriello: have you tried disc golf? I said, no, but I grew up throwing a Frisbee. So I was interested, and we spent two or three hours just talking about it. And he actually set me up with a starter pack of discs. He did a great job as a [00:03:00] carpet, by the way. And he set me up with a starter pack. And I didn't realize that where we were living at the time, we were close to like four or five different disc golf courses.

And I went through a round and immediately just fell in love and became addicted. And a positive addiction by and large. 

Mike Walsh: Sure. 

Paul Toriello: And try to play as much as I can in my free time and over the years and then with COVID, when COVID happened a couple years after I got into it, the sport exploded because people needed something to do outdoors.

It's been a lot of fun. It's also frustrating, thus the hate, because it's, it's not an easy sport. But it's very relaxing at times. Um, so like I said, I, I play when I can, you know, weekends and some occasional tournaments and coming down here to South Carolina, courses here are fantastic. Some of the best in the country, if not the world.

So I love it and hate it. 

Mike Walsh: Outstanding. Outstanding. Yeah. I just discovered that there's a, uh, a disc golf course on a previously used golf course here in Hilton Head, South Carolina. 

Paul Toriello: Yeah. That's a recent [00:04:00] trend nationally as well of golf. Traditional golf, it's, it's market is, is fluctuating towards a negative and there are a lot of courses that go unused or have been quote unquote abandoned or repurposed or they become hybrid where the regular golfers are still golfing and then they built in disc golf.

So you can play in the woods on courses where it's very, very wooded and, What we call tight lines. You have to throw it straight or you're in big trouble or golf courses that are just beautiful, rolling hills of landscapes. That's, that's what I love about it. I get to walk around in gorgeous landscape and throw a plastic circle for fun.

And I get my steps in and 

Mike Walsh: new Vista is opening up to me. I see myself giving that a try. When I was a kid, my, uh, I had a good friend that was really into disc golf and he introduced me to it. This is about 1977 or 78. And, uh, it was a lot of fun. We had a great time. 

Paul Toriello: It is. It's you'll get out of it what you put into it.

And if it's just casual, something to get you moving by all means. And compared [00:05:00] to traditional golf, it's a lot less expensive. You can go to a play it again, sports and get some used discs for a few dollars and stuff you don't mind losing in a pond or, you know, leaving in your garage, if you don't really get into it, as opposed to regular golf, which is not.

to say the least. Um, so it's worth a couple of throws and he gets some frustration out every now and then. 

Mike Walsh: Hey, that's always helpful. Always help. Well, speaking of frustrations and the world and growing and healing and all of those kinds of things, uh, let's talk a little bit about counseling. I know that's your background, that's your passion.

Um, you've been involved with it for many, many years. What are the big issues in counseling that, that you think we should be paying attention to right now? 

Paul Toriello: There are several. Um, I think that the most critical one is, is just that we're in a crisis of the demand or the need for mental health counseling, rehabilitation counseling, addictions counseling, any form of helpful relationship.

The demand is outpacing the supply. I think by the, by the largest margin, certainly in my [00:06:00] 30 years. In the career and from what I understand of history, for whatever reason, and we can certainly speculate and I'm sure we both can come up with some, some theories as to why that is in this society, in this digital age and divided society and all kinds of reasons.

Nevertheless, the demand, the need for mental health, addictions, rehabilitation, counseling is again, outstripping the supply. So there are many implications of that. Well, we need to train more counselors, but that's not just. That's no simple task, and it takes a lot of money to do that, and you can't just wave a magic wand and poof, here are 20, 30, 40 more counselors in a given area of a given state.

So, it also increases, well, how can we provide counseling that's more efficient? How can we use technology to our advantage? So I think that's a critical issue. It encapsulates something I'm also very interested in is, is the use of technology in counseling. So to me, that's at the forefront of my mind, Mike, in terms of what's going on in counseling.

I mean, there's all kinds of things going on. And I've been saying [00:07:00] this the past few years, cause I really believe it. I just see it when I look around and talk to people or pay attention to what's going on in legislation or with professional organizations. Uh, and I'll say it to students, I'll say it to students in our program here at the school of medicine, um, or anywhere that now is probably one of the.

best times to get into the counseling field. 

Mike Walsh: That's right. 

Paul Toriello: For a number of reasons. 

Mike Walsh: Yeah, between the Fed recognizing counseling as a profession and Medicare recognizing counseling as a profession, there's that kind of growing snowball of, hey, this is a growing field. 

Paul Toriello: Yes, and, and standing on the shoulders of people like you have been advocating for, for legitimacy for a long time.

Our current students and future generations are going to have that additional legitimacy that job paths with federal governments or any other entity at a state level, local level. It's exciting. Also, Back to the concern of the crisis. Our folks, our students are going to have jobs because of the demand. You know, with any good thing, there's always, what's the [00:08:00] downside?

The chances of burnout as a counselor have never been greater because caseloads are higher and the intensity, severity of issues are, dare I say, unprecedented. Our suicide rate is at levels it's never been. I think some data's coming out now that for the past year, we're finally showing some Dips in some numbers, but still though, we could dip for a few more years ago down and we'd still be at unprecedented levels of, of depression, anxiety, suicide attempts and whatnot.

So it's always a mixed bag in our field. It's, we help those who are suffering and that's a lot of energy. It's a lot of emotional investment on our part, so there's a balance to it. 

Mike Walsh: Yeah, we've got to train counselors who can take care of themselves, right? And stay well in this process, and we also have to do that in a time in which perhaps we're more connected from a social media perspective than we've ever been.

But are we connected with true relationships? Are we connected with superficial relationships, watching other people's [00:09:00] highlight reels and comparing ourselves in, in many ways, um, to, to what extent can counselors provide those sort of intimate connections? that allow people to grow and heal? Do you think 

Paul Toriello: that's a great question and I love talking about it. So I hope we'll have an intelligent response because it's something I'm passionate about and excited about because I think that is going to be not going to be, I think that is the question of this current generation that we're training that are out there starting their career.

Quite frankly, they're going to be taking over for us as soon to be former leaders of the field and whatnot. And to me, it's, it's kind of a Paul Bunyan, John Henry kind of question. For those of you who don't know, Paul Bunyan was a famous for is it forester? Or he chopped down trees for a living. 

Mike Walsh: That's right.

Paul Toriello: It's a fable of Paul Bunyan. He had his big blue ox babe that helped him collect the trees he chopped down. Then the chainsaw came along and there was a big challenge to Paul Bunyan and [00:10:00] his history and his work ethic and America for that matter and progress and whatnot. And then the chainsaw won because it was just a far superior product.

But what happened to Paul Bunyan? John Henry, this one's a bit more of a sad fable. John Henry went up against the steam engine and John Henry lost his life going up against the steam engine. So there's some social justice issues there with that one. So All that to say, and people are listening to this, like, what the heck is he talking about?

All that to say, I think us as counselors, us as human being counselors are going up against the computer, the AI. Can an AI, virtual reality or some kind of format, can it outperform us? Is AI, is our steam engine, AI is our chainsaw. Can AI build as healthy, as a effective relationship with clients as we can?

Or, I don't want to assume that it's not going to be as proficient as us. I think that's a [00:11:00] mistake for us to say that a computer or any form of technology is not going to be as good as, as a regular human being. I would like to hope we are far superior than, than any algorithm, but to me it's an empirical question.

It's also a financial question in many other aspects. I imagine a battle down the road in our field. Again, remember, so, we started with the demand for counseling is outpacing the supply. So, people who fund counseling, insurance carriers, or communities who have community based funds to support treatment, well, They might be able to serve more citizens with an AI or technology based counseling that's as effective or potentially even more effective, certainly more cost effective than any groups of humans.

So it is a challenge. Uh, I think it's going to be very much defined, you know, in these next several years as, as AI starts to filter in more of our practice. Mike, I hope that made some sense in terms of. 

Mike Walsh: [00:12:00] Absolutely. No, I. It's an intriguing question, isn't it? Like is in what ways can counselors embrace the technology and the opportunities that are, that are involved with technology and, and leverage some of the technology strengths, but while also providing those sort of intimate human connection moments that we know, if we, if you look at the history of counseling, the history of health services.

Uh, it's relationships are the thing, as Carl Rogers would say, right? And, and human to human relationships in many ways. 

Paul Toriello: Absolutely, and, and that's stood the test of time for, for decades in our field, in all helping professions, that relationship is the strongest predictor of behavior change, in, in just about regardless of, of context.

So you don't go to any training program that's accredited by CACREP, our accreditor, or any other counseling related field, social work, psychology, And you're not going to be, you're going to be trained in how to build a relationship, it is fundamental, it is, it is quintessential, it is indispensable from what we do as counselors.

I sign on and I support [00:13:00] that and I believe that wholeheartedly. However, we're getting better at measuring what's going on inside of us with mapping of neuropsychophysiology, biofeedback, biomarkers, and so on and so forth. So. Just to oversimplify it, I'm wearing an Apple Watch, which I just showed you on the camera.

Mike Walsh: As am I. 

Paul Toriello: Yes, you're wearing an Apple Watch, and the measurements it's providing are getting more and more sophisticated. I think soon, probably in this generation or maybe the next generation of phones, These watches will be able to tell the person wearing it, or the person who has access to the data, when the relationship chemicals, algorithms, are being activated during a conversation between two human beings.

And that will be established as semi Fairly accurate and pretty reliable that a therapeutic relationship is being established now visa vi biometrics as well as traditional endorsements by the [00:14:00] client. Yes, I feel close to my counselor. Yes, I like my counselor. I think they can help me in things like that.

So the question is going to become, well, can a computer generate those same algorithms? Can a virtual reality space with an AI interface generate those same algorithms, get the same kind of biometric data? From the watch. To me, that's, that's the chainsaw steam engine kind of battle that we're going to hopefully, I don't know, maybe not hopefully, but I'm, I'm excited to see who wins, so to speak, or is there better use of the technology in a counseling context?

And that goes back to what you said a few moments ago. I believe counselors need to embrace it and utilize it to their advantage or get replaced. What exactly that looks like? I don't know. I'm, I'm too old to understand how all this stuff works. I'm just starting to use chat GPT a bit myself. It is unbelievable.

It's wild and just small scale. So imagine clients out there who need to get. An appointment for [00:15:00] mental health counseling and there are private practices or community based organizations or university systems or any setting and right now they go to an organization's web space. Do you need a counseling appointment?

Would you like an initial consultation? Click here and then you set up an appointment and so on and so forth. Soon, that's going to be an AI interface where the intake is completed, where the prospective client has a conversation with the computer, does an initial assessment, initial intake, and so on and so forth, that's deemed ethical and legal and all that, and maybe even have, Research backing it, that relationship response is activated just in that initial encounter online, which will save time of counselors doing the intake, which will increase the probability of patients or clients showing up to subsequent appointments, save tons of money, actually probably make more money because they could charge for this I would imagine.

So I go all over the place with this, uh, and again, I [00:16:00] hope it's making sense, not that you agree with it or whatnot, but just in terms of understanding. 

Mike Walsh: Well, and I think it speaks to how to counselor serve the role of a counselor in the, in the, in the most effective way. And I wonder a little bit, I've recently read an article and I've done some work with it in the past, but in 2014, Carol Riff wrote an article on compiling what we conceive of as wellbeing, right?

And conceive of as happiness and, and really looking scientifically at the literature on Is it better represented as a hedonic? presentation of happiness, right? How we feel, or might it be better represented by a eudaimonic perspective, which Aristotle came up with way, way, way back when. 

Paul Toriello: Lost me there. 

Mike Walsh: So a much more, uh, complex sense of wellness that includes things like sense of environmental mastery.

Meaning a sense of meaning in our lives, a sense of autonomy. So in other words, going a little bit deeper [00:17:00] than that sort of hedonic yet. I feel fine. I feel happy. I feel sad more towards developing meaning out of life. And so I wonder it without all that as a background and given your perspective, I wonder what you think of utilizing technology as a bridge to meaning and helping people to build meaning and whether that might be the way that To embrace technology and use it as a counseling tool moving forward.

Paul Toriello: That's, that's fascinating. And as I was listening to you and I appreciate the explanation, I was with the on hedonic and then the other one, I can't even pronounce eumonic, 

Mike Walsh: eudaemonic. Yes. It's Aristotle. He liked big words. You know, what are you going to do? 

Paul Toriello: Appreciate that, that education. As I was listening to you lay out that context or that canvas, if you will, you know, several thoughts went off in my brain.

And one of them is a bit cynical, but also I think based in, in reality, particularly in America, well, the client of the future in a world [00:18:00] where happiness is multifaceted, you demonic. Right? Yeah. 

Mike Walsh: There you go. 

Paul Toriello: The client will be able to access a level of happiness or get counseled toward a level of happiness that they can pay for.

That has always been the case in this country, and I don't see it changing anytime soon, is, it's 

Mike Walsh: Has social justice implications, for sure. Oh 

Paul Toriello: my lord, and, and, and all kinds of social justice implications. That the happiest people are the ones who can pay for the counseling to, to be the happiest, um, and, and access, um, The technology that fires those higher orders of happiness, whereas the commoners, the people without or with less, we're just going to keep you to your basic needs.

And we don't even do that well in this, in this society, food, safety, and shelter. So we're going to have to continue to wrestle with those, those social justice questions. Having said that. Technology, maybe it can be more accessible to folks with less means to where I have a [00:19:00] social worker who's helping me with housing and in food, and so on and so forth.

I have a primary care physician who helps me with XYZ conditions that I may have. I have a therapist, a counselor who helps me with higher needs or different needs, social needs, spiritual needs, meaning needs, and the meaning need is an app on my phone to where I talk with, I don't know, let's, let's name that, that meaning counselor who wrote the man's search for meaning.

Mike Walsh: Victor Frankl. We can name him Victor. 

Paul Toriello: Yes. Let me, let me talk to Victor about how I'm doing with just this whole question of life and existential. Sure. Absolutely. Well, we're going to have to wrestle with the, the regulators and the insurance companies and money is going to be involved in those kinds of battles. will still be there . But in the same breath, I say people should be able to access it at [00:20:00] unprecedented levels. I would think, um, if the internet is still free by and large, then let's, let's keep it free. And then my brain takes me to, well, what are the ethics of that? You know, what are the safety measures? If I am a client and I'm talking to my Victor on an app and for whatever reason, I'm having a bad conversation with Victor about my meaning of the meaning of my life. I start going downhill into the realm of hopelessness and then towards maybe even self harm. You know, is my watch going to alert the authorities? Is Victor going to alert the authorities? So there's all kinds of tributaries of things that need to be, to be addressed as, as we unfold all this.

Mike Walsh: Mm hmm. And maybe an argument to keep the human voice in the process. 

Paul Toriello: For sure. 

Mike Walsh: Right? 

Paul Toriello: For sure. I can see a counselor role being somebody at home, with multiple monitors going, who [00:21:00] are monitoring conversations. They're like supervising conversations with Victor. And, and pulse rates or, you know, biometric rates and a crude example would be the, the watches or devices that elderly wear that notify the authorities when they've fallen down or have been injured.

All that to say, I think, Counselors of this day and age, if they're entrepreneurial and in any sense, and if they can get through the fear of technology and embrace it, and if they're thinking private practice or whatnot, they can, they can figure out creative and innovative ways to tap into this technology to be more, um, accessible to, to multiple populations and make more money.

Cause I don't think there's anything wrong with that in this country. So 

Mike Walsh: yeah, absolutely. In many ways, it reminds me of. I was just joking with some colleagues recently, 15, 20 years ago, we were doing a hybrid form of counselor education. [00:22:00] And we've been doing it since the technology allowed us to do it in about the mid nineties.

And it was pretty crude back then. I got into it at about 2003 and, you know, we were, we were just short of a can and two strings. Um, but it worked, you know, and it, but when I would go to conferences and this, this was true all the way up till right before COVID people in our field. Continued to sort of perceive that sort of hybrid assisted technology delivery model as somehow less than or somehow mystical or that can't possibly work.

And I think what covid did in addition to a lot of other things. Is it, it showed people what was possible technologically. And now we're having lots of meetings using zoom and, and those sorts of things that it's made, I think it exposed more folks to what was possible using those technologies. But what strikes me is, weren't we having these same conversations about will technology and the world when the phone was developed?

And the TV was developed and the VCR was developed and I seem to [00:23:00] recall a conversation in the 80s when my algebra teacher was ranting and raving about people having calculators in the classroom and this was going to be the end of the universe as we knew it. As far as I know, that didn't happen. So I wondered, I wonder what your perspective on that is.

Paul Toriello: Uh, yeah, I remember Mr. Mantia in fourth grade. He was my fourth grade teacher at St. Teresa's Catholic grade school in, in. 

Mike Walsh: There you go. Yep. 

Paul Toriello: And in Ohio, um, he had a part time job in the evenings cause teachers even back then were poorly paid and, and, and as they are now, that's Toriello, that's not The school of medicine right there.

Um, but he worked at Radio Shack and a big technology store at the malls back in the day. So he enjoyed technology and he had all these kinds of fancy new calculators and all that. And then there were other teachers at St. Teresa's catholic grade school who [00:24:00] wore a uniform because they're a part of the sisterhood.

The, the nunnery. Mm-Hmm. . Or they, they wore a habit. No, you had to learn this and, you know. 

Mike Walsh: Right. 

Paul Toriello: Maybe a slide rule at the most. I hear you and, and I agree with it. I remember back in the nineties, the, the big tube TVs. I don't think kids these days know what a tube TV looked like. 

Mike Walsh: That's right. 

Paul Toriello: How heavy it was to move those things around and get the cameras set and uhhuh for the, for the hybrid courses that were revolutionary.

Two thoughts there to me, I embrace it and I'm all for it because of access. If it increases access for people who have nowhere else to go to get trained or receive services, let's be creative and innovative because there are people suffering all over this world from mental health issues, addictions, issues, disability issues, that can't access someone in their community.

To me, yes, 

Mike Walsh: it was a big part of our program. We got a rural. Scholars grant for many years from RSA designed to do just that. 

Paul Toriello: [00:25:00] Yeah. So 

Mike Walsh: yeah, 

Paul Toriello: I'm sure in 30 years, whatever, when you and I are retired and hopefully playing around the disc golf together with some snacks and whatnot, there'll be a couple of faculty or having a similar, but.

A new version of this conversation with probably implants and, and, and stuff like that, who knows, but to me, access, if we'd increase access, fantastic. I think the policy and the regulations and the market, the economics of it will always muddy it and delay it and cause problems and that whole mess. And then I think a final thought is, You know, we talked about Frankel and, and man search for meaning and, and, you know, that meaning that high level of, of actualization and, and whatnot.

I think that's kind of a lost art in, in day to day counseling these days, because we're so focused on basic needs, which are just that they're, they're important, but we don't have time or reimbursement or whatever for the more advanced needs. Anyway, all that to say. I believe the human can beat the [00:26:00] computer in terms of being a counselor.

I do believe that. I still believe there's something, what's the word I'm looking for, ineffable maybe is the word I'm looking for, or there's something between you and me, you and someone else, and me and someone else that I don't think can be digitally replicated. Um, I think it can come close. I think it can come pretty close.

I think if we have a good, accurate, reliable measurement of relationship, that's, that holds up over time. You know, it's captured by a smart watch or, you know, maybe some other electrodes or whatever. A computer can come close, and in some instances, meet the human equation, uh, the human proficiency, and sometimes surpass it.

But I think over time, the relationship. of human to human will win out. I can't prove that to you right now. I just believe it, and I have faith in that. I have faith in what we do as counselors. Fundamentally, if the whole grid shut down and we couldn't connect with each other like [00:27:00] this, that two people sitting in the room is sufficient for change to occur.

Mike Walsh: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Paul Toriello: I hope that kind of put it, trying to put a bow on it there, or, or at least give you who my money's on. I think that's going to be this generation's question to answer as we get more and more technologically integrated. Funding sources demand more funding. Objective measurements for reimbursement.

Yes, the client said they feel anxious, but what does their biofeedback? The biofeedback says they are not. Um, so we're not going to reimburse you. Again, a whole bunch of trouble issues there, but. 

Mike Walsh: And alluding to that fundamental humanity, that inalienable, Humanity that in the process and you kind of, you think back to Frankl and maybe even to Aristotle because there's some evidence that Frankl was an Aristotle student as well.

But you think back to that and he talked about man's ultimate freedom that's [00:28:00] inalienable, can't be taken away, is that, is that ability to build meaning and is that where we live as counselors? 

Paul Toriello: Yes, I, I like to think so. I don't think a computer can replicate that. I think it can, it can fake that. It can have an algorithm to express that, but there's a computer will not be able to attach, uh, that thought to an emotion and exude that computer won't be able to exude what we have to offer.

Mike Walsh: Or take the place of the individual making sense of that. 

Paul Toriello: Yes, the dyad, um, that existential quandary, um, that freedom is when we're the most, um, I'm most afraid when I'm most free because I'm responsible for that, all that stuff. I think it'll be interesting conversations with the victors of the computer and whatnot.

But ultimately, I believe our instincts will drive us towards. Actual connection. 

Mike Walsh: No, I agree. And I, I, I, I'm excited about the possibilities of [00:29:00] technology being able to facilitate experiences that would be completely unavailable perhaps to someone. And then we can have that human conversation of what's, what'd you make of that?

Paul Toriello: Yeah. 

Mike Walsh: Um, and, and how does that influence how you see you? 

Paul Toriello: For sure, and I've said this. You know, several times in my career, you know, we, we talk about negative feelings, sadness, anxiety, and whatnot. And my personal experience that I've incorporated into my practice as a counselor and an educator is I go with, you know, to me, loneliness is the worst feeling ever created or experienced by a human.

That's just my opinion. Um, there was a time in my twenties where I was just pathologically lonely, I mean, and I was sad and anxious, but just, just. I'm so alone, and it was, it was tortuous, and it just hit me then, this, this has got to be the worst feeling that a person can experience. And I think, A lot of the clients we serve, that's part of the equation of what they present with in counseling is [00:30:00] they feel alone.

They feel disconnected. They feel isolated and just lonely. And that is such a powerful, quote unquote, negative feeling. I think we have a society who, who feels less lonely as they're tweeting and Instagramming or whatever, but I think ultimately that's unsatisfactory. That's going to be on, 

Mike Walsh: which leads to more anxiety, perhaps, right?

Paul Toriello: More anxiety than it just kind of spirals and escalates. And so, I think the, the chainsaw and the, the steam engine of today can help quite a bit. Ultimately, in my mind, if it leads to people being more connected to other people in the same space, that's what I'm interested in, and that's what I, I ultimately believe in.

Mike Walsh: Yeah, I think in many ways, counseling is the antithesis of that loneliness, right? It provides the, the, the opportunity to make that [00:31:00] connection that's going to be more deeply satisfying in that way. 

Paul Toriello: Absolutely. And, and again, it can't escape it in my mind is I have a vision of a counselor, you know, doing an online session, kind of like, you know, you and I are now talking on a computer or maybe they're in person, but the counselor has a screen that's, you know, in, in the side of their peripheral vision and the client willingly.

will wear the counseling bracelet and that feeds information to my monitor that I can see as a counselor. And the algorithm for decreasing loneliness is, is plugged in and then I'm talking to my client and a green light goes on. That what I'm doing, how I'm interacting, what I'm exuding is generating something inside that client that is predictive of feeling less lonely.

Or the light might turn yellow. That I'm Dr.Ifting from that. I'm, I'm being overly prescriptive or overly questioning [00:32:00] or overly problem solving ish or whatever you want to call it, or red need to make some changes now, cause this client's probably not going to come back kinds of stuff. Again, I drifted right back into technology based on my belief.

Mike Walsh: That's okay. That's why we're here. 

Paul Toriello: Right on my, my hope for that the human wins. Uh, it's, it's inescapable. We need to be symbiotic with, with technology, much like in the matrix. I'm not an Aristotelian or whatever it is. I'm going to go to popular culture in the matrix and matrix two, where the, one of the, the wise elders of, um, Dion took Neo down to where the machines operate and keep the water clean and so on and so forth, and his basic point was we, we need technology to survive.

We can't just destroy all of it. Needs to be symbiotic. 

Mike Walsh: Yeah, and, and we can embrace it, you know, if, if we embrace those aspects of the matrix or in whatever way we, you know, we, that provides us opportunities [00:33:00] then to, to take advantage of what humans do well. 

Paul Toriello: As you just said that, I had a vision of And I'm no graphic artist or anything like that, but I, I think in terms of, well, is there a way to bridge the two?

Can, like, you know, we talked about Viktor, Viktor Frankl being the avatar for a meaning app. Can Aristotle be an, you know, we can, we can bridge history and tradition and humanities and, and culture. Into the images, into the facilitators of these conversations, whether it's technology or us, I think there's a market for something like that.

I, I know it sounds a bit nebulous what I'm saying, but it feels like we're kind of, 

Mike Walsh: sounds like a startup is what it sounds like to me. 

Paul Toriello: There you go. I think the kids we work with and to me, other kids, cause they seem they're getting, they're not getting older. They're getting young. I'm getting older. They just look younger and younger.

They're so. Not analog, they were raised digitally and whatnot. 

Mike Walsh: Digital natives for sure. 

Paul Toriello: [00:34:00] Digital natives, 

thank you that maybe there's a way to, to, these cultural historians, Aristotle, Frankl, these images, these wisdoms, or the wisdom that was generated thousands of years ago, hundreds of years ago, can have a comeback.

An interface with technology. I don't know if that's just through branding or through avatars. Um, and maybe even curriculum. I don't know, but it feels like we're at a point in history where we're so advanced that there can be a movement to, to bring back some of that old school thinking, but in a new form.

And I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't know what the official term for that would be like, I'm trying to think of, of other times in society where that may have occurred, but I don't know, again, very nebulous and a bit word salad there, but it's just a feeling, more of a feeling, I guess, than anything I have. 

Mike Walsh: It makes sense.

I mean, it's, if we have the world at our fingertips and each of us carries, many of us carry a, a phone that has more information on it than any [00:35:00] supercomputer of 20 years ago, Is there a way to harness That the availability of that information and, and take some of those older ideas that really have stood the test of centuries now and mold them into something that would be useful for people.

Paul Toriello: Yeah, thank you for encapsulating that quite nicely. Um, you know, back to meaning. I think we crave meaning. Um, more so than ever, we crave relationships more so than ever because we have so much more than we've ever had. Does that make sense? 

Mike Walsh: Absolutely. 

Paul Toriello: Like you said, you know, with the phone, this is the most powerful computer, you know, really ever.

It, it only makes me happy for moments when I, when I get the meme that, that makes me laugh or whatever. And that meme goes away and I'm looking for the next one and, and all that. So I think we're at it on the cusp of a, a back to basics, even though we have so much access. 

Mike Walsh: Like we say in when we train counselors, right?

Praise lasts about 10 seconds and encouragement lasts about 10 years, right? It's, it's one, [00:36:00] one provides you some instant gratification. Another provides you a resource that you can go back to and look to and make meaning of. Over time. And, and, and maybe that's the opportunity. Maybe that's the opportunity with technology, 

Paul Toriello: at least one of them, one of a thousand, it feels like.

Um, and that, I think that's also intimidating is geez, what do I do? Cause there's so many opportunities. Well, just jump in the water and see what, see how it feels. 

Mike Walsh: Yeah. 

Paul Toriello: Yeah. 

Mike Walsh: Come on in. Pool's open. 

Paul Toriello: For sure. Either that or we're throwing you in, but I mean, we wouldn't want to. 

Mike Walsh: Either way. 

Paul Toriello: Yeah. 

Mike Walsh: Either way.

That's how I learned to swim. 

Paul Toriello: In the shallow end. Yeah. 

Did you have to do like a, uh, tread water for a minute to get your, to pass the test so you can swim in the deep end at your pool growing up? 

Mike Walsh: Well, no. Actually, when I first took, took lessons, they literally took you and said, have a, a good one and threw you into the, to the deep end.

You, and you figured it out and I did, I figured it out. Now I had to pass that test later when I was a lifeguard instructor and all that stuff, you had to tread water for an hour. [00:37:00] And that was, that was 

Paul Toriello: an hour? 

Mike Walsh: That was the threshold. 

Paul Toriello: Wow. 

Times, times have changed 

Mike Walsh: Now why they thought anybody would tread water for an hour in a water park.

Is beyond me, but that was the, that was the thing at the time. 

Paul Toriello: If 

you're a World War II fighter pilot and you crashed. 

Mike Walsh: Sure, right? And 

you're, right. You're in the middle of the Pacific somewhere, maybe. But, um, probably not in the middle of the thunder, thunder pool at the water park. 

Paul Toriello: Thunderpool, 

Mike Walsh: you know, whatever.

Paul Toriello: I, uh, just to kind of, I'm so excited for these newer generations of counselors. They're going to have such opportunities for jobs and innovation. It's going to be unprecedented. So excited for them. 

Mike Walsh: Well, we've been excited to have you, Paul. Thanks so much for joining us today. 

Paul Toriello: My pleasure. I'm glad to do it and love, love being here at USC and being a Gamecock.

Mike Walsh: Well, we're glad to have you. Thanks again for joining us and, uh, welcome to, uh, the university. We're looking to work with you for many years to come. Well, thanks everybody for [00:38:00] joining us on today's edition of Rehabilitation Counseling today. We'd like to thank Dr. Paul Toriello for joining us. Have a great week, everybody.

Thanks for tuning in. We'll talk with you soon. Bye Bye.