Italian Roots and Genealogy
Italian Lineage and Legacy: The Nicolai Family Story
Discover how a family's quest to learn about their Italian heritage turned into a riveting multi-generational journey of exploration and discovery. Our special guest, Kimberley McLaughlin, spins a captivating tale about her husband's family lineage, which dates back to the early 20th century. As she peels back the layers of their history, we learn about Mr Salvatore Vincenzo Nicolai, a tenacious 17-year-old Italian immigrant who left his hometown in Montefiascone, Italy, in 1912. Join us as we follow his path, from his early days as a rigger to his later years as a boiler operator, and how his work ethic and dedication shaped the lives of his family generations later.
Kimberley also takes us through the crucial role of the Italian Heritage Center in Portland, Maine, in their pursuit of knowledge. It was here that the journey truly began, with Kimberley's husband's aunt Sylvia taking the bold step to delve into their ancestry. As we traverse through their family story, we're moved by tales of resilience and determination, the loss of young parents, and the strength of orphans growing up in Maine. This is not just a story about tracing one's roots, but also about community, perseverance, and the unyielding human spirit in face of adversities. Buckle up for an emotional roller-coaster ride through a family's past, and how it has shaped their present.
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Discover how a family's quest to learn about their Italian heritage turned into a riveting multi-generational journey of exploration and discovery. Our special guest, Kimberley McLaughlin, spins a captivating tale about her husband's family lineage, which dates back to the early 20th century. As she peels back the layers of their history, we learn about Mr Salvatore Vincenzo Nicolai, a tenacious 17-year-old Italian immigrant who left his hometown in Montefiascone, Italy, in 1912. Join us as we follow his path, from his early days as a rigger to his later years as a boiler operator, and how his work ethic and dedication shaped the lives of his family generations later.
Kimberley also takes us through the crucial role of the Italian Heritage Center in Portland, Maine, in their pursuit of knowledge. It was here that the journey truly began, with Kimberley's husband's aunt Sylvia taking the bold step to delve into their ancestry. As we traverse through their family story, we're moved by tales of resilience and determination, the loss of young parents, and the strength of orphans growing up in Maine. This is not just a story about tracing one's roots, but also about community, perseverance, and the unyielding human spirit in face of adversities. Buckle up for an emotional roller-coaster ride through a family's past, and how it has shaped their present.
https://chasinghazelstales.buzzsprout.com/
Turnkey. The only thing you’ll lift are your spirits.
Farmers and NoblesRead about my research story and how to begin your family research.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Hi, this is Bob Sorrentino, from Italian Roots and Genealogy, and you can find us on Facebook and YouTube, and we just released our first edition of our newsletter in September, so more to come on that. Today we have a great guest, kimberley McLaughlin, and Kimberley is going to tell us about her many years of research. So welcome, kimberley. Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I'm pleased to be here.
Speaker 1:No, I'm happy to have you, and so now you know in the notes that you sent me, your family has been doing this research since the 70s, is that right?
Speaker 2:That's correct and it's my husband's family and they started in 1970 and it's been a family affair ever since. It's been carried on through the generations and just updated in 2023, so it's been very exciting.
Speaker 1:I bet, I bet, I dare say your family, or your husband's family, is probably the oldest researchers that I've come across so far.
Speaker 2:And to follow their research. It was all done, of course, in the 70s old school and I'm very impressed and very happy to have learned from it and to be able to tell the story.
Speaker 1:So who started and why?
Speaker 2:Okay, so it started out. So my husband, his mother and three siblings grew up without their parents. Their parents had died young, very young, and the children were raised by an aunt. So my husband, my mother-in-law and her siblings did not know their parents, and so it started with my husband's aunt Siby. Her name was Sylvia and she started by trying to track down her father, who was born in Italy, and try and figure out more about him, because he had been an immigrant and had very little details about his family life. So she went right to work and made use of an Italian heritage center that's here in Portland Maine and she got some help and dug in and did some really great research.
Speaker 1:So I had no idea that there was an Italian heritage center in Portland Maine.
Speaker 2:There is.
Speaker 1:You know, us New Yorkers don't associate anything north of us with Italian Boston, maybe.
Speaker 2:Right right, there is, as a matter of fact, just two weekends ago there was Italian heritage weekend here, where they had shut down streets in Portland for the Italian heritage week, you know, and they had a great bazaar and great foods and celebrated all things Italian. So there is a good population here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I didn't know that. So now, my connection to Maine, my Italian connection to Maine, is my cousin Joey, who is the youngest son of my uncle, giovanni, who, and they, came to Italy in the 50s. The rest of my grandparents came in 1915, but my uncle stayed behind when he was baby, with his great parents.
Speaker 1:And I don't remember what college Joe went to, but he went to college in Maine and stayed there and he's I know he's done art and things like that but he had the foresight to record my uncle's story about A's before he passed away and I finally got him to translate that into English, so that was a great find.
Speaker 2:Right. So the Italian Heritage Center here plays into the story pretty acutely, because so, andy's, his grandparents, both died young of things that are preventable these days. Right, it was pneumonia for both of them, but one died in 1928. So Andy's, andy's, the siblings there, were born in 1924, 25, 26, 27, only to have their father, the Italian immigrant, die in 1928. So you can see how they were all really young children.
Speaker 2:And of course, so the Italian we're talking about is Mr Salvatore Vincenzo Nicolai, and he was born in 1895 in Montefiiscone, Italy. So he comes to the United States, he raises this family, you know, he gets married and when he comes he comes with some cash in his pocket and the goal, I think, was to provide money for his family back in Italy. This was 1912. And you know, and I know probably through your research and the people you've talked to, 1912 was, you know, a major time for Italian immigration. He came and he stayed and he worked hard and he came in 1912 but didn't marry until later, like 1923, as a matter of fact, because this year is the 100th anniversary of their wedding. So you know, he came, he worked really hard, passed away, but he had married a Canadian woman and so she took the children back to Canada and they only to lose their mother a couple of years later. She died in 1936.
Speaker 2:So then they all became orphans and they were raised in Maine because they were American citizens. That's the crux of the story. So they grow up not knowing much about their parents, you know, and they grew up to adulthood they had successful successfully, you know started their families. And that's when Sylvia, who moved to Portland because all the kids were raised in northern Maine, so Sylvia moved to southern Maine, in Portland, where they had the Italian community.
Speaker 2:Some of her friends were Italian and they offered to help her. She said, you know, I don't know much about my father and she knew very little, and or her mother or her father really. But so, engaging in the Italian heritage community people, they were able to help her, decide how to write a letter on and to get information, and so that's how it all started. Was not? And that was probably the early 70s, 1970, that she started doing that? So some years had passed and none of these siblings they all grew up to adulthood had families but really didn't know their parents, or at least their Italian father. They were all so young.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's some. That's some story. So now did they what brought him here in the first place? Did they know what, find out what industry he worked in and what kind of jobs that he had when so?
Speaker 2:when he got here he was 17 years old, so he had just begun, I believe you know, to find his profession and when he got here he originally had. He came into, you know, new York City. He came through Ellis Island and then he went to Philadelphia where he became a rigger and we only have that because there was some document, you know, that that was left behind. I don't know what a rigor is, but that was in Philadelphia. And then he went to Connecticut and Massachusetts and he ended up staying in Massachusetts but he became a boiler operator. So he operated in the trades which offered him, I think, a really good income. So he was able to get some money and he didn't marry for quite some time, until 1920.
Speaker 2:So he landed in 1912, didn't marry until 23. So in the meantime, you know, there were documents for the World War One draft and some other things that indicated that he was responsible for two adults and three children in Italy, meaning his parents and his brothers and sisters. So he was sending money back to Italy, I think, to help the family. But all the rest of the little details, like why he came for sure, we really will never know, but we can just guess that, as all immigrants at that time you know, there was poverty, there was war and things like that that I think the parents thought, you know he's unattached and they just sent him to the United States with the idea that he would help provide for them in some way.
Speaker 1:Do you imagine coming at 17 and just doing that? No, I can't, it's beyond belief.
Speaker 2:I know, and you know he must have. You know, when we were just delving into this and learning about him, he must have had a really great work ethic Like he got here. He tried, you know, to be a rigger, I mean. Well, he was, and then he turned into a boiler operator, I mean. So those were things where number one, he probably didn't know English, so he had to really work hard to get into those professions and earn a living. And when he did marry, he married, he was in Boston and he bought a home in Norwood aula and passed. So he bought a home. He was doing well and caring for his family. So you know he was successful in all attempts. You know, from what we can see, he was very successful.
Speaker 1:Wow, you know, you know, you don't know, maybe somebody took him under their wing and got him into the trades, or something like that. Right, I mean the community stuck together in that it's just beyond believe it's 17 years old to accomplish all of that in such a short period of time by a house and everything.
Speaker 2:Right, and so he also had two brothers or two or three, and his youngest brother he was born shortly after 1900, he left and went to Argentina, probably for the same reasons but, and we always thought that there were quotas and things and so we surmised that he couldn't get into the United States because of the quotas and we thought, well, they probably just, you know, said that's enough Italian people you go to, I mean Argentina. We thought that all along and then when I asked someone they said no, what had happened was Salvatore had died so young that there was no more correspondence or no, no information going to Italy. No one knew what happened to him. So they didn't want to send their other son to the United States, not knowing what happened to Salvatore. So he went to Argentina.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So you know, you guess all, you guess all these things and come to find out they're not true. You just try to figure out. But we did ask. I asked that question.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and there was, you know, a large Italian community in Argentina, especially back then, and then, after they closed, everything here more and more went to South America. That was in the 70s. What happened between the 70s and now? What have you found out of you? Have you found out new things? Has your husband gone back to the town? Have they found relatives?
Speaker 2:in Italy. So you can imagine that the relatives in Italy didn't know anything. They didn't know what had happened to Salvatore. That's Andy's grandfather, and I did send you a picture of him. He's really quite striking, he's very handsome. And so they didn't know and they worried until Siby started looking. We didn't know that they were missing him right, because we didn't know who their family was. Siby didn't know, so with the help of the Italian Heritage Center, they crafted a letter and she had received her father's death certificate, salvatore's death certificate from Massachusetts and it said that he was born in Montefiaskoni. So she had that clue, that that's the only thing she knew. So she they crafted a letter to the mayor of Montefiaskoni and it basically just said look, you know, this is my name, my father was born there. Are there any relatives? You know I could read you the whole letter, but they made it very concise.
Speaker 2:They said is there anybody there that you could connect me with? You know he is deceased, that kind of thing. It was really quite quick and within a week she received a letter back from the mayor saying yes, I know your family. He listed, you know, the living brothers and sisters of Salvatore, gave that and sent it right back to Siby. So she received immediate response and he said I, the mayor, had told her, I will forward this to you. They will be in contact with you. So that's how quick that happened in one week. So once that happened they started sending letters to Siby. And if you and if you don't mind, I would like to read just one letter for you.
Speaker 2:Because, it's the response that she got back from Uncle Chesere. Chesere was Salvatore's brother, so just imagine you know that they had never known what had happened to Salvatore. So it said my dearest cousin Sylvia, my dear, as soon as we received this important and great letter, I quickly answered, hoping that you are still in good health, of which I can assure you of me and my family, dearest cousin, to tell you how very, very happy to hear from you. For certain it was joyous occasion that only you and all of us can know. All of these years, not knowing anything of your existence brought a lot of hurt, having always many thoughts that torment like a sore that never healed, and that today you have helped to heal Dearest. Now we know very little, but for the moment that will do by being happy and satisfied. Soon we will find out more about one another. Now I will tell you a little bit about us, even though many years have passed without knowing anything Since the war. Since the war we haven't heard anything from you and yours. The way I remember it and the way your mother related it to you hasn't changed a bit.
Speaker 2:My brothers are three, my sisters two. My brothers are Joseph Chesere Consalvo is now in Argentina. My sisters are Maria and Filomena. We would be so happy if our grandfather was alive to hear that we are corresponding. He died in 1947 at the age of 86. Today it would be impossible to have him living. There are so many things to relate, but there's no paper large enough but little. At a time. When we write, we will be able to tell each other all that there is to know, for this is important moment. Your correspondence assures me that you exist. We have always prayed that this would find, that we would find each other someday, and now it has happened.
Speaker 2:This is the family of Chesere who is writing, and it is composed as follows Chesere, his wife Seria, three children, two boys, salvatore and Alvaro. The girl Severina, married with two children. And this is our family. Dearest Sylvia, I am Salvatore, the oldest son of Chesere, who's writing this, and I assure you I have a desire to see you one day. It gives. I'd give anything to get to know you and spend time with you all, but maybe that's impossible Now. I close with live, sentiment and kisses and affectionate salutations for all the joy that we have received in hearing from you after all these years. You have given us great happiness. Again I say affectionately so long and I'm waiting for a prompt reply, affectionately, cousin and uncle and family, uncle Chesere.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's great that is the most meaningful letter. So in 1970, they were able to reach each other and she wrote back and they started communicating and they and Siby ended up going to Italy, I think in 70 or 71, I forget which year, but she took Siby, my mother-in-law, Ruth, and Siby's daughter Didi. They went to Italy and they met the family for the first time since forever, because Salvatore had left. So you can tell by the letter. No one knew what had happened to Salvatore. They were hurt. They were, you know, maybe falorn, maybe it might be a good word heartbroken.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, of course, and you know it's really back then was tough to. You know it's not like today. Facebook or your phone call or that stuff wasn't, didn't exist, and you know what's really. I think what's really amazing about how quick they answered the mayor answered and everything like that. I don't think we get those responses today.
Speaker 2:No, it was, and that's what we all said was look how quick they responded to each other. You know, she wrote one letter, and it was a week, and then another week and it was fast, it was fast and furious, so to speak. They were very happy to meet each other, to connect again. So that trip was in 1970. And they stayed a week or two and it they, you know, and Ruth had written a, she had written a journal and in my podcast I do, we go over the journal, we read it. It's quite long but it's it's filled with the very same sentiment that we just you know that I just read for you there, the I can't believe, you know, we feel like family. We've never met each other, but we feel like family, you know, and they had such a good time. So that was 1970.
Speaker 2:And then my husband and I, you know, we continued on, you know we I'm the, I'm the genealogist of 35 years and, of course, fascinated by the story. So we picked up again and we started communicating with the family again and you know, we've always known that they were there, but Facebook is so amazing that allows us to have groups and things, that we communicate that way. And so Andy and I decided you know there was one of Andy's cousins from Argentina had come to the United States and met with everybody because she was at the time of student we decided we were going to go to Argentina. So we went to Argentina to meet Consolvo Consolvo's family Consolvo was past, but that he was Salvatore's brother and he had a full family down there that we went down and met.
Speaker 2:That was 2017. And that kind of started some thoughts and then we thought well, now you know we have to go to Italy. So 2019, my husband and I and three of his sisters went to Italy and just and to say that it just recreated the whole event all over again, if that makes sense to you we just did exactly what his mother had done years, you know, in 1970, we did it in 2019. And it was the most amazing trip. We spent two weeks over there and had the best time and the family's reunited. Like you wouldn't like. It was never, never separation. It was instant, instant family.
Speaker 1:I know, isn't that amazing? I mean, I had the experience last year with my dad's cousins my dad's first cousins that I never knew existed. Isn't it something?
Speaker 1:I'm a true believer in things don't happen by accident, I mean okay just before we took the trip, I was contacted on Facebook by my dad's half first cousin, who was actually younger than my father. That's a long story, but in the event he said I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna come to lunch when you have the lunch, and then that that he said, I know you want to go to the cemetery, I'm gonna meet you there and then you're gonna come with me. And I said, well, it's okay if it's okay with the people running the show here we're game. And he took us up to his apartment. There were two women in their 90s, my dad's first cousins, from my grandmother's youngest brother, and they had they had my parents' wedding. I've told this several times for people getting bored here, but but they have my parents' wedding photo from 1944. Right, and they knew gossip from the 1960s. So you know my other people you want to talk to.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, my grandmother and my dad, my dad's older sister. They were in touch for these years and nobody ever said anything. I know I was like you know, my father's passed away in 1997. So you know, I couldn't talk to him about it and the only thing I remember is probably 35 years ago or something like that, he told me that he had family and Tori Del Greco. And when we were in Italy the first time, 25 years, 28 years ago, we saw the sign. You know this way to Tori Del Greco and I said to my wife is it my father mentioned you know? And she said yeah, but I didn't know who, I don't know where and right, and, like you said, they was like we knew each other forever.
Speaker 2:Right. So the co-host of my podcast, my sister Laura, she has a saying that says the DNA in me recognizes the DNA in you, and to her, that's how that's what it means. It means we know each other by DNA. We just know each other. You know we're connected without even knowing it, so it's a. You know, we kind of nerd out over the DNA aspect, but we think you know there's something there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, and I've never heard that before, but that's a great way of saying it Because you know, it's not just me, it's not just you. I hear that from so many other people. Right, they're walking down the street in the hometown and somebody walks up to them and say you look like somebody, you know who you know how the.
Speaker 1:Italians will ask you know, and I'll tell you just something just happened today. We're going to, we're going to pull you in next week and I'm going to meet some more cousins from my dad's family but also go to my mom's hometown in Torito, Bari, and I'm going to be there. And just today somebody posted on my in my group, a genealogist from Bari. His office or his home is like less than a mile from where we're staying in Bari, and it can't be an accident. It just can't be an accident.
Speaker 2:What are the odds? Right, I know it's amazing, it's that's it, and that's exactly what we say all the time. What are the chances that this happens? And so then you say you know everything happens for a reason. So I don't disagree with you there.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm a true believer in you know they, the ancestors. They want to be found Right, and some of us are just chosen to do that.
Speaker 2:And and who knows why it's like, why I and I don't sleep at night. You know, sometimes I'm thinking, well, how does this one connect to that one, and where should I look next, and should I call this person that kind of thing, you know it's, it's constant in my mind. So I don't know if that makes me chosen or crazy.
Speaker 1:Probably a little bit of both, I think Like my wife always says are you looking for dead people? Again I said yeah, I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have things to say, but so, if you want. So what we did was in 2019, we met, you know, all the cousins, andy and I and his three sisters, lisa, cindy and Evelyn. We went to Italy and had a grand time, so we invited them back, of course. But you know, we made note that in 2023, it was the 100th anniversary of Salvatore and Ruth's wedding. So Lisa kind of put into motion a little bit of planning and, you know, a year ahead of time, told everybody hey, let's, let's all get together, let's all of Salvatore's and Ruth's descendants get together and have a party, you know, family reunion, and so that's what they did, and that just happened a few weeks ago and there were over 84 people, I think there 84 or more, and so I think I don't know if I sent you a link for that or not- yes, yeah, you sent me that photo, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean from those two people who you know had such a successful beginning. You know they had four children and then it is blossomed into this huge group of people and so we got together this summer and went over all the Italian reminiscing and exchange pictures Everybody's looking at the pictures that I had the family tree out. And so we span four continents from Salvatore's parents. We span, you know, argentina, europe, and there's also Australia. One of the siblings went to Australia and the United States, so they're spread out everywhere. The only place we haven't been yet, I guess, is Australia. So I have to do more, yeah, I have to do some more research for that. But you know it's been such a joy and the family you know to connect like that is. There's just nothing else like it.
Speaker 1:And there's so many Italians in Australia, another place that you don't, you don't think you know, but I get, you know, I get a lot of correspondence from people in Australia, A lot of people you know, join the group and things like that.
Speaker 2:So I don't, I don't know the backstory as to why so many Italians went to Australia. I don't know that story. I don't you know. Was there a common theme or?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, actually I'm interviewing somebody from Australia, I think next month or November. So, I'll have to ask. I would imagine it was just for opportunity, but you know the states was closed.
Speaker 2:Right. At some point, all of a sudden it stopped yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, they closed it in 23, 24, whatever it was for many, many years and in fact you know my uncle, even though his four brothers all served in you know all were born in America all served in World War II, four of his other five brothers. He had to wait in line, he had to go. He went to Canada for like four years Right and brought his family there and then I think he went in 49 and 50 and the family came in five years later or something like that.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, even to that point it was still closed, right, you still had the quotas and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, that is some incredible Italian roots and genealogy is proudly sponsored by your Dolce Vita and Dawn Matera, connecting people to their purpose in life and continuing their legacy. For more information, contact Dawn at wwwyourdolcevitacom. That's only one small part of your husband's family and your family. What research have you done with your family? What have you found in your family?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, and that's, I found a lot, a lot. So what happened was in the beginning, like 35 years ago, when I was, you know, just a young person, my aunt gave me a genealogy that is that another aunt had done, and it said that my father, my maiden name, is Burgoyne Burgoyne, and said that we were related to General Johnny Burgoyne, who was in the Revolutionary War. They said, sure, we're related, and she had it written out. It was just typed up thing and I said, oh well, isn't that interesting. That was it. I was hooked and I had nothing else other than that family tree. I wanted to prove it right. I wanted to say okay, and I still, to this day, 35 years later, have not finished proving it. I've gotten one link away and I'm stuck, I can't find it, I can't prove it, but nonetheless, that's so. That is what started me. I'm still working on that.
Speaker 2:But I'm also working on many other things and you know, in my podcast we talk about some NPEs. You know, some non parental event is what they used to call it, but they don't call it that anymore non paternity event, that kind of thing. So we found out some of those things in our family and you know, my grandmother died when she was, when my father was 11. So I never knew her and that is why the name of my podcast is Chasing Hazel's Tales. Hazel was my grandmother. I never knew her and we had to go looking for her story to try and figure out who she was, because no one ever talked about her. So that was a big part of our genealogy. You know, journey is doing that and that's what you know we went on to talk about in the podcast.
Speaker 2:Plus, I've done. You know, my mother, my mother's family, goes to Sleepy Hollow, new York, and I'm going there in October to look at the Old Dutch Church and do some. I have, you know, relatives or ancestors in those cemeteries, those old cemeteries, and I can't wait to go. So we have people there and the Canadian connection you know, a lot of our family comes down through New Brunswick, canada and the Irish, the Irish element. And to this day here's my Achilles heel To this day I have many family lines. I'm, like you know, 40% Irish. I have many family lines. I cannot find where they land in, where they come from in Ireland. I cannot do it Because every document I read, everything I find, just says they were born in Ireland. That's all it says.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean not unusual for that, but usually you come across you know some plans, right One person. Please just write it down.
Speaker 2:But, and you know, try and find Bridget Kennedy in Ireland. Okay, there's only 800,000 of those. You know. Those are the most common names.
Speaker 1:So going back to Sleepy Hollow, because I used to pass there all the time we used to when we went upstate many, many, many years ago. So is there Dutch in that part of the family, in my part right?
Speaker 2:So the right, the Dutch Reformed Church has been there since like 1620. And it's the. The connection I have is through an ancestor called Dirk Storm, who was from Holland, who sailed in 1620 here and he kept a book called Old Dirk's Book. So it's Dirk Storm and he I'm really glad you did.
Speaker 1:I know I love it.
Speaker 2:So and he landed there and he had a family there and there were that's where the Dutch came and created their colony or their settlement and they and it's still there, the church is still there, the Dutch Reformed Church, and that you know they have their community. So, and then a lot of those, the people in the Dutch community there during the Revolutionary War they were loyalists, so when they lost they left and got granted land in New Brunswick and then they that's where they met up with my Irish ancestors, and then they came into Maine and you know, kind of around a white way, but that's what happened there. So, yes, there was a large Dutch settlement there and they kept fabulous records and they were there at the beginning of Manhattan. The beginning of Manhattan. They were there and I think there's still a pub or something in Manhattan that has connections to those people. So I have to figure that out too.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I wouldn't be. I wouldn't be surprised, and the reason I asked is my ex-wife. She's got Dutch going back and in fact her. I don't know if it was third or fourth great grandfather, something like that, maybe fifth. They were Van Ricken. They owned Rikers Island, oh, no way. But her family was throughout like Hempstead, long Island, the farm. They were Dutch, they were Germans and Irish, but they were Quakers and Flushing Queens. I don't know if you're familiar with New York City, but a little bit. They were Quakers and Flushing. I guess you know Same thing 1600s, something like that.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean that's, that's the beginning, almost, of New York City.
Speaker 1:Now so we're going. You haven't been able to find the gateway ancestor through that, oh.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I go. I've tried both ways. I've studied general Johnny Burgoyn. I think I've the most. I've studied him the most of anybody on the planet. I have all his books, all the writings and and it's just an interesting thing that he had four children in his will and I can trace three of them, but not the other one that supposedly my ancestor. He's gone. He was the youngest, he was a boy, and when general Johnny died they all went to Lancashire to live with Lord, lord Stanley, lord Derby I'm sorry Edward Stanley, and Then the third that sons never heard from again.
Speaker 2:I can't find him and legitimately I can't. I see Names pop up but I can't prove who's who and I don't have. You know, I would love to like take up residency in England for about maybe as well. As long as it takes for me to find that answer, just if it's true, or if it's not true, what happened to that child? I don't, I can't find it and I just need help, that's all I guess. And To do it, and I don't have the time at this point. But yeah, so, and I've done all the research over here that I can do, I just need that link, I just need to know what happened to that. That second son I can't find him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's crazy. Yeah, and you know my children are adopted and my daughter I've been able to trace her back because our family's been. They both have parents, birth parents were here in the you know Virginia in the 1600s and things like that, and I was able to trace her back to the dispenser family.
Speaker 2:That's that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's, she's direct from Daniel Boone.
Speaker 2:And there you go. That's I mean because he's such a mythical figure almost you almost forget that he was a real person.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like he was just big, bigger than life thing. So I did some research for family for a friend that I know and they were in the. They had the Spencer line and it went right to the same area where you know the lady Diana Spencer's family was from and I, you know, I haven't gone any further with that, but I mean it seems to me there's got to be a connection there somewhere. But you know also. So the van. We have connections to the van Tassel family, some and I and that I got to do that before October. So I'm gonna figure out the exact connection. But the van Tassels were featured in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow by Washington Irving, because one of that sounded familiar, right.
Speaker 2:It's a love, I think it's the love interest. There is a van Tassel and she was a real person that he took. He used her name for the, for the story so and we are connected to that family somehow, and I have to figure out how, but they're all kind of connected In that Dutch community, probably sooner or later. And I also found that there is a spring steam in my, in my tree, and you know that Bruce Springsteen's paternal line went right through Sleepy Hollow to, I believe, and through the Dutch.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that you know what I? His grandmother was Sarantina what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, not related to me.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I, there's a Robert, another Robert Sarantino, that I interviewed and he's actually related to Bruce. Oh, there you go. Yes, second cousins or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some, you know, someday that'll come up too again. But I mean, you know, there's all, we're all connected, right?
Speaker 1:So Well, yeah, that's that. Is that is true in some way, shape or form, my, my son my son is my wife's fifth cousin, really, because he's his birth father was from Puerto Rico. My wife's father was from Puerto Rico. There you go, and you know, I was going through the ancestry one day and I said Matthews related to you, and you know strange happenings with DNA.
Speaker 2:Certainly things pop Did you have anything strange pop up in your DNA that you oh, yeah, I, we, yeah, we have a, we have a, an NPE, and so what we found was that my grandfather and this was this is all its public knowledge. It's related in my podcast, but my grandfather was not my biological grandfather and through you know the writings and things that my uncle had saved. We were able to parse together, Though the what happened, kind of thing. Where did where did this information come from? How come we didn't know it, type of thing.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we have a, we found a lot of things, and my co-host, my sister Laura, is the. She's the Santa Morgan Queen, you know, and people in DNA know what that is. She can, she can look at a number and say, nope, that's not right Instantly, she'll just know. So she's been able to say, oh, I don't, that's not a right, that's that these aren't connected, right or something. So we found several things and it's it's to us, my sister and I both registered nurses, so we had that little bit of biology, you know, knowledge that it's interesting to us to have to figure those little puzzles out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, my great-grandfather on my, my paternal grandmother's father, he was filial, natural, and so that's the way they said without it wedlock right in Italy. And he's got. He's got two birth records that I found I call them birth cards Sometimes. Sometimes when you look on the antonadi day of a little card or something like that, or I think maybe Alessandro found it, but anyway, he's got Two different mothers listed. How can that be.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't figure it out. He's on his, on his actual birth record, right from the commune. It shows I Think it shows Maria Savino Um, but this other card shows him a really owning. Oh and it says that he was not. You know, he was born out of wedlock.
Speaker 1:Right, he's the oldest son from my great great grandfather and they were a noble family. So the only thing I could figure out is that, and I even said to somebody. I said, well, maybe you know, maybe my great great grandfather's wife, the person who married because I don't think he was married to another person maybe they allowed her to adopt. And I said no, they wouldn't be able to do that, but somehow, I guess he made him, he, they made him legitimate, somehow, and that's the only thing I could think of why he had these two cards. Now, maybe because they had money, right they?
Speaker 1:were able to pay somebody off. They were able to change your records. But it's quite clear in his record that he was. You know, he was not born from somebody who was. You know, he was married. My second great grandfather was a married. So that was and that was a big mystery. That really, that really hit me. When I saw that I was like, wow, you know nobody of it. Well, I don't even know if anybody even knew. I'm sure my grandmother didn't know.
Speaker 2:And that was in Italy.
Speaker 1:That was in Italy, yeah Right.
Speaker 2:So their norms are a little bit different than than here, you know. But the things that we found out were you know, about my grandfather not being my biological grandfather was that everyone in that age, everybody knew, except we didn't know. You know, it was like this big secret, it was all like it was. It was open secret then. Right, that everybody knew, but nobody said type of thing. But when it came to us we didn't know, and it's like how come we didn't know but they knew, you know, or nobody talked about it, and so that was kind of just, that was the revelation. Like you know, how does that happen or why? You know, it's just the way things. Nobody talked about that kind of thing. My father never talked about it, and and so that's all you know, it's all gone to the grave. So we had to kind of try and figure it out. But it's, you know, it's nothing malicious, as we said, but just the way things were.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, my good friend, he found his older brother Dundee, you know no idea yeah, I know you know it was. It was the first son born to his father. He obviously wasn't married, yeah, but in that case I don't think anybody knew, I don't think that you know. Back then you know we're talking 1949 or something like that you know they would hand the baby to the next door neighbor If somebody wanted.
Speaker 1:I have a good friend. She was born in I don't know, late 60s, early 70s, and she didn't have birth certificate. And there's New York, New York City.
Speaker 2:And no birth certificate. No birth certificate, oh boy, how do you fix that?
Speaker 1:Oh, she said it was torture. She had to go to court and you know her, her, you know her. Adopted parents were Italian and her father told her you're my daughter, that's all you need to know. She said. I need to get a license. I need to do stuff.
Speaker 2:When. So, when we're in Italy and I'm asking questions about you know, this relative or that relative, and they just have no concept, which is it's not a bad thing, it's they have no concept of how interested we are, like, well, who is your father, who is your other father? You know that and they just you know they will, they're here, you know, they're just all here. And so, you know, we just asked where the relatives were and what they were. Well, they just you know, we were just always been here, so they didn't, it was no concern to them. And you know, we, we just asked a lot of questions and it's obvious that they're, you know that their concept is different than ours as far as family history. Their family history is written very well as far as it's, it's in the it's thousands of years old.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, they put in the same towns for 300, 400 years, isn't that?
Speaker 2:and that's, and that's exactly what it was. So in Montefiisconi they said yeah. Well, when we said family tree, they said yes, painted on a wall down in the restaurant. And we said I want to go to that restaurant and so you know no big deal. So we talk about it for a few days or whatever. And then they had gone and asked about it, you know, so that they could bring us there and come to find out they had painted it.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness Over.
Speaker 2:So the family tree that we were looking for was there, and now it's gone, and so I don't know why would they do that?
Speaker 2:Why would they do that? Well, did anybody take a picture? But and when I go to the family history library and I look up Montefiisconi, there's tons of records. They're all in Italian, of course, and there's a lot. The last name is Nikolai, of course, so it's Salvatore Nikolai and his ancestors. There's just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of things, and so they're all there. But that would just take like that's like a one place study. You would just go to Montefiisconi and just do just that. And I don't have time for that, but if someone does that would be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I have, I have a. My second great-grandmother was from Lucerne, Switzerland, oh yeah, and I was like where'd this come from? Right, she lived in Naples, obviously, and you know, I found her on one of the you know anthonautic records and I was like I'm never going to get any place with this Right. Yeah, MOHR Last name was more, and I was just, you know, poking around the Internet one day and I tell everybody this, just poke around, you never know what's going to show up. And I found two books that listed the.
Speaker 1:Offices in the Neapolitan army, and I think 1853 and 1857 or something like that. And I found my second great-grandfather, felipe Carraccio. He was a lieutenant in the horse guard or something like that, or Calvary. And just above him I see this Bernardo Moore oh wow, captain in the Swiss guard.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Captain in the Swiss guard and I was like Swiss God, I thought they got it the Pope. Anyway, you know doing some research.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what was coming to my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, doing some research I found out that you know, in the 16, 17, 1800s the Swiss cantons, especially the Catholic cantons, would send mercenaries to various countries or kingdoms, send their soldiers there and get paid. So anyway, he was assigned there and I'm like, ok, well, I found the father, but you know, that's it. Well, again, poking around, one day I put in something about you know Swiss ancestry and I saw a link to a place and they said if you have Swiss ancestors, email us in Italian, german or English and we'll answer you. All right, and I said here's the last name, more M-H-R, it's Elisa Moore. Her father was Bernardo Moore. They sent me back a link to all the prominent families in Switzerland or Lucerne right.
Speaker 1:And they had handwritten trees going back to the 1500s. Wow, so I was able to trace this whole, this whole tree back, and it's just my poking around poking around.
Speaker 1:So I tell people, you have to poke around, don't you know? Walk away for a week or two and come back, you'll find what you're looking for and it's out there. You know, if you're just persistent, right, and yeah, that really, that really blew me away. So then I found another family, amrine, and I forget how I found it. Anyway, this person sent me back a picture of of, I guess for lack of a better word like a shield or something like that, or like a crest or no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it had the two families on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, OK.
Speaker 1:It had. It had my grandfather's crest, his family Karachelot, and then next to it it had the Moore family and you know, switzerland. There's no nobility or anything like that, but when you look at all of these records, there were probably 20 or 25 families in Lucerne that ran the show for like 300 years.
Speaker 2:Well, and the Moors were one of them.
Speaker 1:And the Moors were one of those families.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so by being on the same shield, were they married? Were they two?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it had joined right, yeah, yeah, yeah, there were two families that had joined they. I'm assuming they went there at some point in time and yeah, it was like. I'll send you the picture. They were side by side and that's awesome. So yeah, you never know what. You never know what you're going to find.
Speaker 2:Right, just that, my gateway ancestor was Italian. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know who knew, I don't know. There's a fellow by the name of Kai White who does these fantastic charts and he does it. It's not like a normal ancestry chart. He puts all the crests and things like that out there. And when I asked him about Coaccio, he said, well, who's you know, who your family? And I said, well, you know, prince Luigi, from the state and the state. And he said, well, I've never done Italians before, but let me look. Ok, I'll see. And I had sent them what I had and he came back and he said, yeah, you know, and I was able to confirm all of this with you. Know, cousins in Italy, right, and just an amazing journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but so we had. We have to find you. Now I'm going to go crazy looking for this Burgoyne guy Because we have to find our gateway answers, because it's probably there.
Speaker 2:So you know the thing is. So I mean, you would think General Johnny Burgoyne has more things written about him except, and you know. And then he retired and had four children, by his mistress evidently, and but the youngest son, you know, you can find him, he's in the will and that's it. You know once, general, and then I cannot find him again. I mean, I just don't know how that happens. The other three children married well and had successful lives. What happened? I assume he died, but then then Aunt Sadie's tree would be wrong if he died, you know, but nobody mentions him. I've even read, you know, the wills of the other children and they don't mention him.
Speaker 1:And I, it's just he was the black sheep or something like that.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm thinking either that you know he might yeah right, I mean something just you know he just or he just had Did his own thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I told you know somebody you know at a wedlock or whatever, and it just there's just that, not that connection, right? But yeah, tomorrow I'm going to be looking for Burgoynes.
Speaker 2:His last known whereabouts was Lancashire, Ireland. I mean, I'm sorry, England that's too funny, that's too funny. I've been, I've been looking for a long time.
Speaker 1:So before we go, if anybody wants to check out your podcast, where do they go?
Speaker 2:Well, they're on all the platforms. I'm you know, I I'm native to Apple, but it's Apple and Spotify and Google and I heart all those and it's called Chasing Hazel's Tales, Hazel being my grandmother, and you know, start at the beginning, because that's where we start talking about Hazel and it gets really interesting. But it's really, it's been a fun ride.
Speaker 1:It always, is it always?
Speaker 2:is.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thanks again, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I've had a wonderful time. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:It's fun to talk about.
