A Deep Dive into Italian Genealogical Records

Embark on an ancestral odyssey with Katherine Pennavaria, whose blend of scholarly rigor and personal passion for genealogy unveils the remarkable layers of Italian history hidden within civil records. Our exploration takes you through the twists and tales of Katherine's Italian lineage, revealing how the meticulous documentation of Napoleon's era and the detailed narratives of church chronicles can offer more than just names and dates. They sketch out occupations, social relationships, and the societal pulse of bygone times.

This episode is a tapestry of historical intrigue, from the allegati's unexpected details to the sociological insights gleaned from passenger manifests. As we navigate the challenges of language and time, Katherine's academic precision shines through, guiding us through the nuances of old terminology and the complexities of deciphering records marred by time's wear. It's a testament to the power of patience and attention to detail, akin to the precision of a well-played round of golf.

Katherine's expertise does more than just enlighten; it inspires us to look beyond the surface of our family stories, to question the lore, and to cherish the living memories as much as the archival ink. Whether you're embarking on your own genealogical quest or simply drawn to the emotional resonance of family heritage, this episode promises a journey through time, identity, and the enduring legacy of those who came before us.

k.pennavaria@wku.edu

Turnkey. The only thing you’ll lift are your spirits.

Italian Marketplace LLC
Online tee shirts, hoodies and more for Italians

Genealogy for Beginners
A step-by-step guide to researching your family tree.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Hi everyone, this is Bob Sorrentino from Italian Roots and Genealogy. Be sure to check out our blog and our YouTube channel and our newsletter and our great sponsors, your Dolce Vita, italy Rooting and Abiativo Casa. And today I have a very interesting guest who's done a lot of research on the Antonati. I also wrote a book about beginning your research, catherine Pennavaria. So welcome Catherine, thanks for being here.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Thanks, Bob. Thanks for having me Excited to talk to you today, Welcome.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Catherine, thanks for being here. Thanks, bob, thanks for having me Excited to talk to you today. Yeah, yeah, and I can't wait to get into some of the unusual things you found on the Italian records.

Speaker 2: 0:56

But before, we do that. What's your background? Where is your family from in Italy? Well, my personal background is I'm a professional academic researcher. I've been a librarian and faculty member of universities for going on 25 years. My family background my father's grandparents were from Southern Italy, sicily and then also just the Southern part of the boot.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Yeah, so what got you started really looking into the family and doing the research?

Speaker 2: 1:28

um well, I was visiting my dad over christmas in 2009 and he decided to show me some pictures from his family that he had just found in an old closet, and I just got the feeling like, yeah, I'd really like to do this as my Christmas break project put my dad's family tree together. So here I am 14 years later, 15 years later, still doing that Christmas break project.

Speaker 2: 2:03

And you had never seen these photos before and so, and you had never seen these photos before. No, in fact I didn't know that much about his family. My dad's not a big talker and we spent most of the time with my mom's family, um, but there were pictures of his grandparents and some cousins and I. It was all kind of new to me and I just thought it would be an interesting project to start researching it. But once I got started, well, I don't have to tell you guys what that's like. I was utterly fascinated by it, especially when I got past the US records and started dealing with the Italian records. Then, I mean, I was hooked big time. I never stopped being fascinated by them since then.

Speaker 1: 2:50

Yeah, and you know, most people know, I think we have Napoleon to thank for the Italian records, because before then there weren't any.

Speaker 2: 2:58

Oh no, there are. They're just church ones. In Latin they have for where my dad's one of his grandfathers is, from Potenza, in Potenza province, in Basilicata province region. Sorry, it goes back into the 1600s. I have records for his grandfather's line, rocco La Sera of the La Seras, going back into the early 1600s. So yeah, they're there. You just have to teach yourself to learn to read the Latin.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Yeah, and you're right. I should have clarified that that the civil records go back to.

Speaker 2: 3:34

Napoleon.

Speaker 1: 3:35

And before then it's the church records. And the church records you know some people luck out and you know able to find it A lot of people. Now you know they've consolidated some of the churches and things like that and it's very, very difficult. So you have to be lucky. But but I think a lot of the old towns they still do have those records.

Speaker 2: 3:55

Yeah, and they're not in the place where they started. I mean, they've been centralized and the Italian government has a state archive that a lot of them are available at. So, yeah, I feel very grateful to the Family History Library in Salt Lake City and the Italian government for making those available, because I mean, I have never stopped to think much about it, like most people. You know what's my sort of distant ancestry, what's my sort of distant ancestry, but I have, I really really find something every time I start, you know, trying to figure one branch out.

Speaker 2: 4:31

Yeah, but I just I didn't really get that interested in the genealogy stuff until I mean, I was already a researcher, I was already a librarian and a college professor, so just that kind of work was familiar to me, just the subject was new to me, my Christmas break project and I actually discovered things about my dad's family that he did not know and a few things he still does not know. So I hope he's not listening to this Because I'm not telling him he's 89 now listening to this because I'm not telling him he's 89 now.

Speaker 1: 5:10

Uh, yeah, you know I started doing this. My dad passed away when he was 74 and, uh, I started doing this after, but he would have been amazed by the stuff, but a lot of things. I found really important stuff that that nobody ever mentioned. Now, how about your mother?

Speaker 2: 5:29

What's her background? Croatian.

Speaker 1: 5:34

Slovak and German. And that's a whole. Have you researched her side too?

Speaker 2: 5:39

Oh yeah, I've done all of the research on both sides, both my parents' ancestry and worked with the original records. I taught myself to read Slovak and Croatian, just like I taught myself to read Italian. Yeah, I mean hobby doesn't even begin to describe it. This is basically my other life. Besides, you know, I work, I play golf and I do this.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Yeah, I play golf very, very badly. Uh, yeah, I play golf very, very badly and and my and my father was a, he was my father was like you know, uh, I guess he had like a six or seven handicap and I just you know what it is. I think with golf you have to have patience.

Speaker 2: 6:21

It's a lot of it's mental and I, I don't have that well, it's just like with genealogy you have to have a lot of patience, and the thing is about that other research. I was glad to get access to some of the records that I did, but it's nothing compared to the Italian civil records I mean, the ones in Croatia and Slovakia are all church records very minimal, and you wish there was more more.

Speaker 1: 6:43

But the italian ones, by contrast, are just unbelievably detailed and standardized and I I love them yeah, and I found that with with some of the the german records you know, it's it's like an entry in a book but it doesn't really give you a whole lot of stuff you know with like the italian records. They even mention the grandparents sometimes and then things like that the older, the older, older ones you know. Um, now, just out of curiosity, have you done a dna test at all? Have I what have you done?

Speaker 2: 7:18

dna test yeah, I did, but I I didn't. I didn't really find it all that helpful or interesting. My interest really is in the paperwork, the records, the paper records created by civil and church officials. You know, to me that's where the real interest lies, you know, in just seeing what information was important to those people, how they recorded it, what they did with special circumstances, which is what I was hoping to talk with you about today.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Yeah, and that's a perfect segue. So let's, you should be able to share your screen. If not, we'll figure it out.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Okay, all right, let me do that. I got my presentation called up here. Now this is just some slides I put together. This isn't some formal thing and there are so many aspects of the Italian records research, but what always fascinated me was sort of what, what? What do you do when you confront something like this?

Speaker 2: 8:34

Okay, my very first Italian record that I saw was not this one, but it looked a lot like this one. I'm like what on earth is this? This looks like somebody's a. This isn't a record like I was used to, where you would maybe think in terms of like a US record, birth, death or marriage record but that is in fact what it is. It's just they just did it in a different way. So I had a lot to learn about the conventions of record keeping. So I had to learn that the usual info was divided, as we discussed earlier, into the civil records that start in 1809, the Napoleonic style, those wonderful standardized records those tell you the date and time and place the record was created Of course, that's not the same as the day of the event, which I had to learn the hard way and then the identity of the person who reported the event and the way that they phrased that.

Speaker 2: 9:35

They say that this guy appeared on this day at this time. This guy appeared before me and he said that and the whole actual record, the core of it, is basically what that person said. So, oops, and so then the date and time and place of the event, so you get this whole. It's like someone's speaking to you in full sentences. On this day, at this time, this guy came and said that on this day and this time, this, this baby was born and this, and it's really just so dense with detail that it's. It's incredible, especially when you compare it to the earlier church records that are available. So really, really great stuff. So I had to learn then that the bottom part was the witness testimony, which basically I learned to ignore unless it had been signed by somebody concerned in the record. So that's kind of like that's a normal Italian civil record. So that's pretty straightforward. This person was born, these were the parents, this is who reported it, this was the name.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Yeah, so just just to, just to stop you there for a second, just to stop you there for a second. One of the things that I found with the witnesses is often it could be another family member or a cousin, or in some cases it might be a dignitary or something like that.

Speaker 2: 11:06

And in some of the records it actually says the occupation of the witness, which I always find very interesting. Oh yeah, they're definitely interesting. I tend to ignore them after I've looked to see if there are things like you just mentioned when I just sort of move on, and then, after I got to know those I did.

Speaker 2: 11:19

I did spend a lot of years two or three years teaching myself how to read the Italian in these records. I can't read Italian, but I can read the Italian in records because what they always say pretty much the same thing. You just have to. You just have to learn the parts that are standard, and then the details are different. And then I had to. I started working with the church records, which always looks something like that, and you know, after a while I got so I could. They have very, very. They're very cryptic, they're highly abbreviated and they're in not always, but usually in Latin. So, yeah, so I had to teach myself all of this, bob, and that's one of the reasons why I really really, once I retire from my actual day job, really want to work on a project, I don't know, in the form of a book, or maybe I'll even do my own website where I share how to sort of shortcut this. It took me two.

Speaker 2: 12:24

I spent too much time reinventing the wheel, as it were, so I had to learn what all these words meant. I was at the time I was doing this. I was ordering the microfilms from the family history library sent to where I lived and you know the Mormon church where I lived. So I had to go through and teach myself what all these different things were in the different conventions, that there's primary sets and there's these secondary ones, that these attachments, these allegati to the marriage records sometimes contained the most absolutely fascinating and valuable things, because they would have extracts and copies of things from much, much earlier records. Well, I didn't know what I was looking at when I first. It's embarrassing to remember how dumb I was. I'm like what is all this? So, as I was talking to you earlier about, I immediately became very fascinated by the unusual information instances. Now, this society had a variety of people and human beings have a complex life, so there's going to be unusual situations. But what's fascinating to me is how important it was for the civil record keepers to document that Any unusual situation. They had to actually describe that in the forums.

Speaker 2: 13:49

One of the first unusual situations I ran into is the birth record for my grandmother's grandmother, who was a foundling, if you can see. It says she was found on the 25th of December in what is it? 1857. She had been left in front of the door, all right. So she was a foundling Mother, was an unmarried woman who had to leave the baby at the church, basically and this is her name down here Tercilla Yamale. That's an invented name, as foundling names all were at this time. Tercilla is a sort of a fancy version of Teresa, but Yamale is an archaic Italian word that means wintry, like a wintry blast, so she was found. It was very cold when she was found. That's what I take out of that, and the clothing is described so that if later a mother wanted to claim this baby, they all they'd have to do is describe these peculiar clothing here. Yeah, and in this record it's.

Speaker 1: 15:00

I mean, the clothing is very, very descriptive yes, it's it.

Speaker 2: 15:03

It takes up five lines just about the clothes, so anyway. So the baby was brought to the midwife and that is my dad's great-grandmother and there's no way to research her history or what her parents' names were, it's just, the connection is broken right there. The connection is broken right there. I also encountered in a marriage extra sorry, one of those additional, the allegati, the additional documents to a marriage record. I encountered this and it says that this was a marriage record for an ancestor named Giuseppe Antonio Mattucci and it said that his father was the late natural father, eustachio Mattucci. So in other words, it's got that word naturale in there, which I came to understand meant that he was not married to this child's mother.

Speaker 2: 16:01

Further research revealed to me that this ancestor of mine, eustachio Matucci, had two children with a woman he was not married to, while he was married to someone else. That was like in the late 1700s, so anytime anybody wants to think that the modern era invented complicated family situations, well, you just go ahead and look at these. So I was really fascinated with how they I guess they insisted on putting this. There was no way. They were just going to say he was the child of the late. You know this person. They had to make it clear. So if you were born out of wedlock, that fact was going to follow you the rest of your life and every record created about you. They were going to say your parents weren't married. And if there's something kind of really bizarre and cruel about that, but at the same time fascinating, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1: 16:58

Yeah, and you know, when I told you the pre-interview, my great-grandfather, he was a filial, natural. So same thing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:28

And see, and that fact meant something to these people. It really mattered to them and I suppose it matters a tiny little bit to people today, but not really matters a tiny little bit to people today, but not really. The way that they expressed these unusual family situations is. There's a variety of them. This one I absolutely love because natum ex illegitimo concubitu that's Latin, meaning that the parents live together but weren't married, so born out of an illegitimate cohabitation, which I thought was was very interesting. But yeah, they were not not gonna just let it go that this child was born to these people. There was gonna be. There was an insistence on the precise circumstances.

Speaker 2: 18:20

Here's an unusual one that kind of made me cry. This was actually from a death record. So it's basically a baby was discovered abandoned and deceased in the public street. Nobody claimed it. Well, they have to create a record for it. So they didn't just create a death record for like unknown infant, the way I you know, maybe in in the US I've seen some records you know for like no name, but no, they had to be so clear that it was found in a public street. What happened there? Now, this issue of the foundlings is so fascinating to me they always were given invented names. Well, well, some of them were pretty hurtful. I mean, how hard is it to translate Bastardo? Many of the foundling names meant unwanted, rejected, thrown out, abandoned, exposed. When I was young, I was living in Chicago. I was a Chicago Blackhawks fan and one of the players was Phil Esposito, and I later come to find out that his name means exposed, left out, so he must have had a foundling ancestor yeah, my wife's uh grandfather was Proieto from Sicily.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Same thing it's a foundling name.

Speaker 2: 19:42

One of the words they would often put on the foundling records is Trovatello found, so like it was left at the church door or left, sometimes left at the midwife. And I know we've talked about this before, bob. But there's a really fascinating cultural invention called they called it the wheel, and it was various names, sometimes the golden wheel. Here they're calling it the ruota dei proietti, the wheel of the cast out ones. So this was like a lazy Susan inside the wall or the door of the church and you put the baby in door of the church and you know, you put the baby in turn. The wheel baby goes inside to be looked after by well, by priests, not so, not so perfect, but they would eventually then find a midwife or someone to take care of the child and that the child would have to be, you know, become a public charge. But I do like seeing and the on the wheel of the cast out ones.

Speaker 2: 20:46

There were so many different ways they had in these records of basically saying this person has no name. You know, incognito, that's an italian word we have in english ex ignotus or just ignotus, from from no unknown, from unknown, and then some of them are like the word you just said, proieta thrown out. Genitori ignoti, parents unknown. This is my favorite one. Filius populi, child of the people. That's a euphemism if I ever heard one.

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah, I've seen that before. Child of the People. Yeah, these literally are children, babies that have no name. I mean, we don't really children born out of wedlock today usually take their mother's name. These children had no name until it was assigned. So, like Oliver Twist, somebody had to give them their names, and the names they gave them tended to be very fanciful, have to do with the month that they were found or something like that they were. They were clearly labeled, however, as that, but sometimes their name is this word Trovatello or Proietto or Esposito. It's just wow, it's just wow. So, anyway, one of the things I found, bob, was that gypsies didn't didn't get last names either. Their names were all first name and then the italian word for gypsy, as if that's all you need. And if you go on ancestry, today there are thousands of people whose surname is Zingaro, but originally that just started because you know they couldn't be bothered to give them last names. Oh, that's Silvio the Gypsy, okay.

Speaker 2: 22:33

So, and we talked earlier about this idea that if a child was born out of wedlock, there was a civil procedure. Well, first of all, if the child was born out of wedlock and then the father married the mother, there was a civil record procedure whereby the child could be declared legitimate legitimate. So this is. This is an example of a transcription of a record basically declaring the legitimacy of this child. Now, so it was really, really important to these people to make that clear, because once the parents were married, it didn't matter that they were born out of wedlock. Now they were legitimate. I don't really use the words legitimate and illegitimate. I think that is outdated phrasing. I think saying the phrase illegitimate child is awful. There's no such thing to me as a human being that's not legitimate. So born out of wedlock is more descriptive and even that phrase is kind of ancient sounding. Wedlock, I don't know. Born outside of marriage doesn't even matter, but it married to these people a lot.

Speaker 2: 23:51

I absolutely love this one. So we have the death of. This is a death record. So the death of Mariana La Roca di padre ignoto, of unknown father, and Maria La Roca, prostituto, prostituta. Not hard to understand that Italian word, but the thing about it, bob, is they give it this word as if it's her occupation, like the way you would say, like farmer or, you know, artisan sheep, herder, prostituto. Now that brings up to me the issue of oh wait, did they just accept it as the fact that if someone was a prostitute, that was just their job? Was this somehow built into the culture? These are all questions that the records raised for me, which I would like to understand but do not at present.

Speaker 2: 24:45

This one was so interesting to me because it's a death record. Okay, it's a death record for a stillborn child. We have this, biagio Bellezza, which is clearly from Southern Italy. That's not a Southern Italian name, that's a made up name and he was born Senza Vita, without life. But the heading of this record makes clear that he wasn't just stillborn, he was born as a result of an attempt to abort him. So the Italian civil record creators had to document them. Now, this would have been probably a crime, so they're describing something that was illegal. So I just I think that's the only time I ever saw that one.

Speaker 2: 25:33

And, moving on from like births, deaths and marriages, if an Italian guy thought he could just abandon his home, his wife and kids and get away with it, oh no, those civil record keepers were going to make a declaration in the civil records for the place that this person has now abandoned his home. This is why they felt they had to do this, but this it may be. By having this the city official declare this maybe protected the wife and children from being blamed for the fact that the husband was no longer around. This was one from my family. I was very I missed this at first, but then I saw that this is from Potenza, but then I saw that the words di matera were in there, so from a different place from where this was created. They just sort of stuck that in there.

Speaker 2: 26:30

I think the civil records make make it more clear when someone doesn't come from the place. If they do, they say from this place, or they say from somewhere else, but this, this one, those words. It's like you can't ignore any words in these church records. They're they're so dense and cryptic that each little bit means something. And then some manuscript marks I found really fascinating, which I'd love to research what, what are you drawing all of these?

Speaker 2: 27:01

Oh, and this was the thing I talked to you about earlier, the different ways of correcting mistakes. We would just put a line through it or scribble it out. They had several different ways of doing it that don't immediately leap out at you. The one way was to put lines above and below and then write the right name or the right word afterwards. So this person's name is Rocco Donato Cioscio, not Rocco Pasquale. That's not the whole name. And this person's name is Michele Passarella, not Giacomani Passarella. So they're saying not this word, but this one. I did not realize at first that's what that meant, and then they also would sometimes just put this Italian word, dico, which, like I say, or basically I meant to say, and then they put the correct name and then they put the correct name. So this person's name is not this one, but this one. That's a weirdo Weird way to do it. This is probably the most familiar thing, where you put a little caret and you put the name over here, but the underline indicates that it's replacing it. You're not just inserting Lucia here. This person's name is Lucia Vigiano, not the Francesca was a mistake.

Speaker 2: 28:26

So the record creators wanted to get these things right and they had ways of fixing their mistakes. Yeah, when you work with the Italian records a lot, you see a lot of things like this. Doesn't that just break your heart? Where the ink bleed through has just made it pretty much incomprehensible, and then sometimes it's like working with the dead sea scrolls. Look at that. That's just all from moisture and insects, basically, just over time, they just did a number on these. Yeah, you can't get anywhere with that one. Did a number on these. Yeah, you can't get anywhere with that one.

Speaker 2: 29:01

Sometimes the operators, the people who did the filming, will tell you that there are problems. I always think of. That's their way of like CYA. They're like, hey, it was like this. When I found it, I didn't do this, I didn't spill my coffee on this. So they're telling you the pages are stained with water and the writing is illegible because of that. Okay, I believe you, nobody would think the operators did this. The worm, that's the little results of bookworms. So when, when we say the word phrase bookworm, that's what we're talking about little insects that burrow into pages and leave trails like that. And this is a good example of somebody saying hey, I did not tear this. This page was torn when I got here. I just want you to know. So, pages torn. So nobody blamed this guy for it, somebody did it before.

Speaker 2: 29:59

Now, just to kind of finish up, bob, some useful phrases in Italian. You can find these at the FamilySearch Wiki, the Italian genealogical word list. These are some of the ones that I had to learn. I taught myself these like with index cards, just like when I was, you know, younger and in college trying to learn things. They do appear over and over and over. But then there are some phrases that really threw me. This phrase De Viventi.

Speaker 2: 30:25

It's so interesting to me because it was important to these record keepers to make it clear whether the people's parents were living or deceased. They didn't just say parents' names, they always say like this is Anna Mazzze of the living, domenico Matze and Conchetta Vitacca. Women didn't change their names, so that's her parents' name, but we know they're both still alive. If they aren't, they say De Furano or they abbreviate that to Da Fu of the late. So we always know whether the person's parents were alive. That helps you look for records relating to those parents. It has helped me in the past to know that once I figured out what those words mean, and then sometimes they abbreviate it like what? Looking at that you don't immediately understand what that is, that, that it's an abbreviation of debt to. And then they also use the latin ibadem or or id or ib. Like that it's abbreviation just means the same as above.

Speaker 2: 31:35

And I think we were, we were talking about this words for, like grandparents, they didn't just say grandparents or grandfather, they told you whether it was related to the mother or father, so it's the paternal grandfather is the avo paterno. They also had a need to. This is. I love the Italian civil records because they had to pin down the times precisely and it really bothered them not to be able to. They're always like yesterday, today, the last month, but this some time ago. I'm sure it killed them not to be able to say it more precisely. And then sometimes they'll say that this information is being reported and they'll say that these people claimed this and there's kind of a hint that we're not quite sure we believe them. But that's what they said, so we're writing it down.

Speaker 2: 32:30

Some abbreviations quantum, the late questo, this look at that it looks like a two with a zero, but it's a Q with a little o and the abbreviation for sudeto. As above, all of these took me a long time, bob, to understand what I was looking at and what they meant and said they would refer within the record to things that had been stated earlier and not repeat the information. But we now come to the one thing which I misunderstood for years and that I had all my dates wrong, bob, because it did not occur to me that Italians call September the seventh month. It's right there in the name, but I still missed it. So the eighth month is not what it would be to me August. It's October. It's right there in the name that I still missed it. And so the 10th month to them, right there in the name, is December. So I had all my dates wrong for a long time and I had to go back and redo everything, redo everything. So you know, just like I said, reinventing the wheel.

Speaker 2: 33:49

The final thing I want to talk about is things to be on the lookout for. A transcription is not the same as the original record. It's a recopying of the original. So you might be able to go find the original. And an extract is not a transcription or the original. It's sort of like a summary made from the original. Sometimes, like we have in the US, delayed records TARTIVA, that's the word. So, if you see that word, this is talking about an event that happened long before, maybe a year or two before. There's brief versions of records that's not the full one, so you might be able to try to find the full one. And oh, how long did it take me to figure out that that was a five? Does that look like a five to you, bob?

Speaker 1: 34:33

Just like a five yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:35

Yeah, no, it does not. So that's 56 right there. So I had to learn that they make the ones with the little tail so yeah. And then these numbers in the in the indexes, this one with the zero up top is not 10 like I originally thought it was. I'm confessing how dumb I was at some point, but it's the means. The first they're giving like kind of the ordinal number. And then in Southern Italy they pronounce hard Cs, like Gs, like they say the province or the region name Basilicot, and that's why we say like Gabacol, like that. It's just this habit. But sometimes in the records they actually write the G instead of the C, which does not mean this guy's name was G-A-M-I-L-L-O, it was really a C.

Speaker 2: 35:29

And the final thing, bob, it's very, I promise, the final thing, this is Italian record keeping creeping into American records. This is from a passenger manifest. Passenger manifests were US records, are US records. They were. The blank forms were given to the shipping companies to be filled out there.

Speaker 2: 35:49

So when people came here they bought their tickets and gave their identification and other info in their traveling group to a shipping clerk in the place where they were, and that person spoke their language usually. So in other words, the names weren't being written down at Ellis Island, as sometimes people think that that is not what they were doing there. They were written down before people left, just like we do now. The airline has your name on a list before you get on the plane. But what happened was the Italian shipping clerks were trying to identify how these people went together, because it was actually, by this time, federal law that passengers had to be into by family. So this top line, biagio Giordano, the next line, is trying to indicate that that guy is the brother of the guy above. So, bob, here's the quiz what is Giovanni's last name?

Speaker 2: 36:57

So I guess it'll be giordano, yeah exactly, but many, many times the indexing at ancestry has put this word as the surname. That didn't mean it was the surname. It just means that if you are a descendant of giovanni giordano and you go intoestry looking for his passenger record under this that name, you're not going to find it because he's been indexed as Giovanni Fratello. And then the same thing would happen with these words this is Stefano Gerasi and his wife Mollie. Wife Giuseppa Granata, an Italian woman, kept their maiden name, so these two are husband and wife. The record keeper is just trying to show that she goes with him as the wife. And then these are their children, maria and Conchetta. So, ok, what is the surname of Maria and Conchetta?

Speaker 1: 37:55

Yeah, granata, yeah, that's really interesting yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:59

Oh, Jurassic.

Speaker 1: 38:00

Yeah, Jurassic.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Granada. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, oh, jurassic, yes, right, so every once in a while you'll see this as someone's surname. It's not really their surname, it's just how it was indexed by American English speakers who did not, first of all, understand Italian or the convention that the shipping clerks would put these family relationships into it using their own language. And, honestly, it's very frustrating to me to encounter this, because I think, well, it made sense to them, but then what we have is a disconnect when the indexing came to be done. So, anyway, well, that's, that's all I am going to share with you. I have a zillion more examples, but I'm sure you don't want to do a three hour podcast.

Speaker 1: 38:48

No, but that's. That's all fascinating stuff and I, you know, we all struggle with those things, but these are things that I've encountered, one or two of them, Like I said, feel your natural, which which took me a long time to get somebody to explain to me and understand what that actually meant. But I think some of the things around the foundlings is really, you know, great. And again, I knewuster's last stand. John Martin, Giovanni Martini or Giovanni Martino, was a foundling and he was a bugler and he survived because Custer, or, you know, the sergeant, whoever was in charge, sent him to go tell one of the other officers what was going on and he survived and he eventually wound up in New York City and I think he worked on either the trains or the subways or something like that. And the reason we know he's a foundling is because the documentation shows that his father wanted to claim him again at some point or meet him or whatever, and he didn't want to have anything to do with him.

Speaker 2: 40:04

It was the father who left him in the wheel.

Speaker 1: 40:07

Yeah, uh, so a little bit of uh, I don't know, useless information or good information?

Speaker 2: 40:12

I don't know well, I think the thing that always strikes me is how careful the Italian record keepers were to get the precise information down, because it mattered to them socially and it may not matter as much to us, but it mattered a lot what someone's social status was. So with it, my family members all come from the Italian peasant class, which made up the greatest number of individuals in any place, and within that class there were social divisions. So a foundling was lower on the scale than someone here. A married woman with children was here, a man was here you know what I'm saying and that was just important to them, and I do appreciate the fact that they recorded so much. Um, I would like to know more about the sociological realities of these places. That's just something I've never really had time to to dig into.

Speaker 2: 41:16

I have to say I admire the foundlings who managed not just to survive the circumstances of their birth I mean my grandmother's grandmother being left outside the church door on Christmas day. You know, she was probably. It was a few days old, maybe maybe a couple of hours old. That's a survivor right there. And then they married her off at 16 to a man who had already like three or four children and his wife died. So she became an instant stepmother when she was still a teenager and then had several more children and then died when she was in her forties. So I mean not a great life, but in physical terms she was robust and managed to survive all of that robust and managed to survive all of that.

Speaker 1: 42:02

And you know, one of the interesting things that I found was you had mentioned the marriage records and the bands and that stuff. My great-great-grandfather, their marriage documentation or bands or whatever you want to call it contract, is like I don't know 20 pages or something like that, but he eventually became a lawyer, or was a lawyer at the time, I'm not sure, which Eventually became a Supreme Court justice in Naples, but her father or her family, they were lawyers, so they had everything but the kitchen sink in this thing. So what's going to happen after they get married, before they get married, when they get married, after they die? Everything you could think of is in this thing.

Speaker 2: 42:57

That's really interesting. Did I told you that my dad's ancestors were all peasants? There is actually a panavaria who was not related to my dad's panavaria branch um, who was in mussolini's government. So he, I've, he, I think he even has his own wikipedia page. His name was filipo pennavaria, but he came from the um the right around ragusa and syracuse in sicily, in the southern part. He came from that branch, but the part the pennavaria is my dad is descended from came from the ones around palermo. So yeah, I mean, eventually back in time there was somebody called Joe Spotted Feathers and everybody comes from him. But yeah, you know, go figure, I never really stopped to think about it. But I had a Latin class when I was an undergraduate and my first day my teacher said penna varia various feathers. Okay, is this going to be on the quiz?

Speaker 1: 44:03

I mean some of my paternal grandmothers, some of her ancestors, on their occupation. It just says rich person.

Speaker 2: 44:15

You know, I wonder sometimes, like about the development of the need to say what people were like. Why was that important that you identified what they did for a living? Like you know, we don't really do that now. If I fill out a form, you know I don't have to put that I'm a librarian, or out of form, you know, I don't have to put that I'm a librarian or well.

Speaker 1: 44:40

I mean, I, I think in their case, you know, and you know, for the noble side it was, it was extremely important, I suppose but, you know, even even you know, my uncle um that stayed behind when my grandparents came and and he raised his family there and everything.

Speaker 1: 44:54

He tells the story. Now he was a. They were farmers, they were all farmers right from torito um, and even in in in that class there were rankings. So he wasn't allowed to marry my aunt um. At the beginning they didn't, they said no and then he went to, he went in the army and he came back and you know, maybe they had to marry her off and he was the only suitor. I don't know the story, but when he came back from the army they allowed him to marry my aunt and you know, uh, but you know it was very structural back then and then now we're talking 1920s and 1930s so, and I wonder how you know much of that they brought with them.

Speaker 2: 45:42

You know whether they tried to impose that kind of social rigidity on their children, which probably had less success as the generations passed?

Speaker 1: 45:51

yeah, I think I think you know not so much in in. You know my, my parents would have been 100, right, not so much in their generation, but I think the generation before that, the ones that came in the late 1800s, early 1900s, I think they still had that because they weren't really, I think, assimilating as quickly as you know, the children that were born in the 20s and 30s and 40s. Certainly you know my parents. Your parents didn't have that, although in my mother's family all my aunts and uncles were Italian, except for one aunt, and my dad's family the same thing. So you know they were still marrying Italians through the 20s and 30s and 40s.

Speaker 2: 46:42

And Bob, before we wrap it up, I wanted to tell you a funny story that has to do with my researching my dad's family history. When I was growing up, my family had a set of bachis. Bachis, both wooden ones. They looked hand-turned. I mean, it was the family's prized possession and my father always told me that his grandfather, nunzio Panavaria, from Montemaggiore, belsito in northern Sicily, had brought them to the US when he came. I accepted that story without question. Well, into you know, my 40s and I. Finally, when I started doing this research, one of the little side issues, little rabbit holes I decided to go down, was trying to verify that story. So I started looking into, you know, the history of Bachi. Where did it start? And eventually I was able to prove, much to my dad's disappointment, that that whole story was a total lie. I mean, his grandfather's family did own them.

Speaker 2: 47:49

But I found out that there was an absolute bocce craze in the United States in the 30s and 40s and every city, including Chicago, had many, many bocce courts and every bar and tavern had a bocce court next to it, and so that sporting goods stores were selling tons of these in the 30s and 40s. So they were importing them but then selling them. So basically, my dad's grandparents bought them at a store. Not as much fun as thinking that Nunzio came over with them. But then, you know, as I started to look into like what were the realities for people traveling, I'm thinking, oh, they had a limit on the baggage weight and size. I'm like these things weigh like 30 pounds. Why would anybody bring such a stupid, useless thing, no matter how much they love the game? And then I discovered it even was even harder for my dad to take in that Sicilians don't even play Bocce because it's too hilly, but especially where Nunzio was from, it's on the side of a mountain. I'm like, dad, there are zero places in Montemaggiore Belsito where your grandfather could have played Bocce. Montemaggiore Belsito, where your grandfather could have played bocce this is a northern Italian game that was hugely popular in the States. And your grandparents bought this at a store and he was like, oh, that's disappointing, like it wasn't as fun, the story wasn't as fun.

Speaker 2: 49:11

So I feel like part of what I do as a genealogist and a family history researcher is I'm constantly deflating people's fancy ideas about the past. Now my mom's side of the family. I had to tell all of her cousins that their uncle was not in the movies with Rudolph Valentino, that he was at the time those movies were made, and he just told them he was and he was still in Chicago working as an undertaker's apprentice and he later did live in California. So I think what happened is he came back home and they were like oh, uncle Cornell, tell us about living in California. Do you know any movie stars? And he's like, yeah, uh, me and Rudolph Valentino were like that and I was even in the chic with him.

Speaker 2: 49:55

I mean, he was really having a good time making these kids believe him. But they believed him in a way that when I told them the reality, they were like well, I am choosing not to believe what you said because I like the story better. I'm like, yeah, a lot of people like their stories better than the truth. So my dad likes his story about Nunzio bringing those botches, but that I I I just feel like, oh, okay, I'm sorry to disappoint you, dad, that's the historical reality and I I don't mean to disappoint people, but the historical reality is interesting in and of itself.

Speaker 2: 50:31

I think it's fascinating that yeah there was this bocce craze in the country that Chicago once had more bocce courts than one could count. You know, I mean that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Well, and you know it's funny, you mentioned that because when we were in Calabria they have a game there that's kind of like half bocce and half bowling. You play it outside and they set up these pins in a certain configuration and it's got. You know, a small little like you know handheld. You know handheld fits in the palm of your hand thing.

Speaker 1: 51:00

The other thing is they are the masters of spinning tops. There was this whole competition and they told me it's global. But there's this whole competition where you spin a top, you hold your hand out straight like this, and they put the top on top of your hand. Huh and they'll never time it actually was the top of your hand. That may have been the inside, but they time this and there's this whole competition around this. That's such a big deal and you know, of course we had to try it and everything.

Speaker 2: 51:36

See, I think the reality, the historical reality, is always interesting in and of itself. Of course, we had to try it and everything see. I think the reality, the historical reality, is always interesting in and of itself, and I have had to deflate many people's fanciful stories about their ancestors stowing away on a ship when they were eight years old, and I'm like you know no. But the fact that of what they actually did, that they came when they were what you know 16, 17, 18 that that's enough, that's good enough. It's always important, I think, to recognize the reality of the people in the past as it is represented in the records and not make them more than they were, because what they already were is pretty fantastic. I have a very positive attitude towards these immigrants.

Speaker 2: 52:18

A few years ago, bob, I had an experience, though, that showed me the flip side of it. I had some friends visiting who were from Finland, and we met in New York and we were doing some stuff, and one of the things I convinced them to do with us is to go to Ellis Island Island, where I'd always wanted to go. So we went there. I'm utterly fascinated. From the minute I stepped off the boat, I'm like, oh, wow, and this is where everybody walked through and I mean I couldn't get enough of it.

Speaker 2: 52:49

The fins lasted about 20 minutes and they were so obviously unhappy and I said you know what's going on? They were like we're going to leave, we don't like this place. And I mean I was shocked. I was like this is sacred ground here. This is the you know where several of my direct ancestors walked right through here. That's meaningful. And they were like, yes, and so did a lot of people from our country, and it pains us to think about that, that our country lost so many people. So they perceived immigration as a loss and I perceived it as a gain and they were not wanting to celebrate the loss of their countrymen to immigration. To them it was a national tragedy that their country could not support its inhabitants and that those people were forced to leave. And I'm like, well, I never thought about that before. That's so interesting.

Speaker 1: 53:48

Yeah, I never, you know, it never dawned on me to think that way. Yeah, I mean, I guess I could understand a little bit, but that's really, really interesting, that's super interesting. So before we go, I know you have a book out there on Amazon that kind of, you know, gives some tips into people who want to begin their research. So what's the name of the book? Their research, so what's the name of the book?

Speaker 2: 54:17

It's called Genealogy for Beginners, published by Roman and Littlefield. In February 2020, right before the COVID pandemic. I was scheduled to do several promotional things and all that got shut down, but anyway, it was just timing, I would say that it turned my. My publisher asked me for a genealogy for beginners and I basically turned it into for beginners and beyond, because I just never know when to shut up and I just it was so fascinating to me, I just felt like, oh no, I want to keep talking about this and this. So it's maybe a bit more than for beginners, but it certainly has a couple of chapters that I wish that I had read in 2009 when I started my Christmas break project.

Speaker 2: 55:07

Just what to do first, what's the most important and just in general terms, living people are the most important, what they remember, what they have to say. So, before you bother with an Ancestry subscription sorry, I hope no one out there works for Ancestry, love Ancestry but before you bother with that, record the people who are still here, because they will be gone and the Ancestry records will still be there in exactly the same form. So I really recommend that people first of all access the memories of living people, record those interviews and then access family papers and pictures before somebody throws them out and preserve them and scan them, and then you know, you can start chewing through the paper records that are have been digitized and they're they're. It's all interesting, but you have to look at what's the most fragile and the people's memories. Even my memory isn't as good as it used to be. I can't even ask my dad. He's 89 now. I did interviews with him like 10 years ago and now when I bring things up he goes said that.

Speaker 1: 56:17

So yeah yeah, and I agree, I tell everybody the same thing and that's, you know, that's my biggest regret, although you know, my grandparents and stuff like that, they, they, um, they passed away when I was very young. But yeah, I, I, you know, I have a little thing too. I have like a seven part thing about doing it, and that's chapter one. The very first thing ask grandma, right, that's the very first thing.

Speaker 2: 56:42

Yeah, Well, it's normal, I think, for young people not to care and for older people to care when it's too late, you know. So I did not ask any of my. I had three grandparents alive when I, after I, was born, and I didn't ask any of them ever once. Tell me about when you were young, tell me about this, tell me about your parents. I wish I want to go back and do that so badly. I mean people say like what would you do if you had a time machine? And you know, sometimes people would be like, oh, I'd go back and kill Hitler. I'm like Hitler can just do what is his thing.

Speaker 1: 57:13

Back to talk to my grandparents, that's exactly what I say exactly the same thing. My parents are actually like who would you want to meet my grandmother?

Speaker 2: 57:26

Exactly, and you know it was right there in their heads and I'm interacting with them every day trying to get candy, you know. So I try to tell young people you know things like this, but usually it usually does not make an impact. But anyway, the book was. It ended up being more than for beginners and I jokingly suggested that we call it genealogy for beginners and beyond, like Buzz Lightyear kind of reference. But that was vetoed too full disclosure it?

Speaker 2: 57:53

yeah, I definitely, but it's not dumbed down. I tell the full story. If you want to do genealogy right, I think this is that's what I was aiming at. You know, this is not a thing to take on lightly. It's a project that takes a great deal of thoughtfulness and patience and time and money if you're going to do it right and I think it's important to do it right and not worry about who's coming along to care about it. I mean, I do this work without really thinking well, no, does anyone care now? Well, who knows, there might be a me somewhere down the line who's going to say, wow, you know. I'm so glad this KP person in my family tree did all this, because now I know what my grandparents and great grandparents lives were like.

Speaker 1: 58:43

Yeah, no, I agree 100%. Well, listen, thank you very much. This has been fascinating, I think it's. You know. The book will be great for everybody, but especially people well into doing their Italian research. You know your, your hints and tips on the, the, the records is priceless, so I really appreciate the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 59:03

Well, thank you for the opportunity to share, Bob. I love talking about those Italian records and, once again, I am a librarian. I'm a university librarian. I am helpful by instinct. So if any of your audience has any questions about the Italian records or needs help with a translation or something, I mean, you just shoot me an email. I'll see what I can do.

Speaker 1: 59:24

All right, perfect. Thanks a lot.