Unveiling the Past: Italian and Chinese Ancestry

Ever wondered what it takes to trace your family roots across continents and eras? Join us on an enthralling journey with our special guest, Stephanie Larimore, as she uncovers the layers of her multicultural heritage. From starting her genealogical quest with 23andMe to delving deep into Ancestry, Stephanie's adventure reveals riveting tales of her Italian war bride grandmother, an American soldier grandfather, and their unique blend of Italian and Chinese ancestry. Her storytelling will captivate you with tales of bravery, migration, and the serendipitous moments that connect past and present.

Stephanie shares the poignant journey of her grandmother, who courageously left Trieste, Italy, for a new life in the United States post-World War II. We explore the emotional weight of official documents, the cultural significance of Italian family traditions, and letters that weave a narrative of love, loss, and resilience. Stephanie’s recounting of her family's immigration journey and the rich tapestry of personal history offers a profound look into the complexities of identity and heritage.

Discover the fascinating tales of a ship captain, and the entrepreneurial spirit that runs in Stephanie's family. From decoding old letters to reconnecting with long-lost relatives, Stephanie’s anecdotes are filled with warmth, humor, and deep emotional connections. We also delve into the process of obtaining dual citizenship and the importance of preserving family history. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of cultural connections and the enduring power of family stories, promising to inspire you to uncover your own heritage.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

This is Bob Sorrentino from Italian Roots and Genealogy. Be sure to check out our blog and our YouTube channel and our newsletter and our great sponsors, yo Dolce Vita, italy rooting, and Abiativo Casa. And I have a very, very interesting guest today with a very interesting background, something that I haven't come across yet interviewing Italians. So Stephanie Larimore. Thanks Stephanie for being here and welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited that you found it interesting enough to want to talk to me about it and hopefully I've learned a lot from your podcast of how to research things and how to understand some of the information I'm coming across, because I'm pretty new at this research genealogy stuff. I did it earlier this year, starting with 23andMe, which is what kind of got me in the door of looking who are these people who it says I'm related to, because I don't recognize them, and then I ended up doing Ancestry. That was better, I think, because it was more, there was more historical things to go through that 23andMe didn't really have that kind of stuff. They were more into the like what your traits are for your health, like if you're likely to be a heavy sleeper, and stuff like that, which I thought was like you have your traits.

Speaker 2: 1:38

According to your traits, you can, you might be a heavy sleeper or you have a hard time focusing, or something like that, which I thought that that is interesting, but it wasn't as much what I was wanting to know about. So I think Ancestry is what got me down that rabbit hole of looking at census statistics, looking at you know, some birth records or crew, even like crew lists, manifests of ships. I found all that really interesting and then so I was able to um talk to my dad, and because my dad he is, uh, he's 70, 77 now. He was born in 47, so, um, he was actually made in italy and born in the United States. My, I guess should I start with you first.

Speaker 1: 2:27

Well, so yeah. So just to set the stage here a little bit for everybody your grandmother was an Italian war bride. Your grandfather was an American soldier, but he wasn't the typical American soldier now, was he?

Speaker 2: 2:42

No, no, no, no, he was yeah. And it's interesting too because I've been able to read through some stories on my, on my Chinese side of the family and they talk about they were really good about, like towards the end of their lives, I think, just like telling a lot of the stories about growing up during the Depression, during the war, about growing up during the depression during the war, and they they're some of my aunts, which were my grandfather's um sisters were wrote about how, you know, james shum joined when he was 18 um the army. I, I think I don't know if, back then, if you joined a specific branch of the military, you just signed up for the military and they put you where they needed you, I think.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Well, you could enlist in the Army or the Navy, the Air Force. Well, there was no Air Force, it was the Army Air Corps, but it was basically no. You could enlist in whatever you wanted to enlist in, unless maybe, I know, during Vietnam, if they needed you someplace, it didn't matter. You got drafted and they said you're a Marine, you're a sailor, you're a whatever, whatever they want to make.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Well, I guess, when he was 18, he, because he was born in 25.

Speaker 1: 3:55

And now he was, he born. Was he born in the States or was he born in China? He was, he was born in Chicago. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:01

Actually, his whole story is a whole different. If there's a chinese podcast about his story, it'd be a great one for that. Because his, his parents, were born in china, um, but they were my um great-grandfather, well, who I thought was my great-grandfather. So during this whole thing I found out my great-grandfather was not actually my biological, uh, great-grandfather and that my grandmother had. He traveled a lot, so the one I thought was my great-grandfather was a reverend and so he would go and travel and, I guess, preach or you know, at different churches and so, because he traveled a lot, she was in Chicago with two kids by herself and the two kids were not even their kid together. They were both widows in China and had daughters of their own, and then, when they got married, they combined their family. Obviously, he came out in 1920 to get things ready. They'd already married in China and she came out in 1921 with the kids to San Francisco and then basically they just went straight to Chicago because everybody, all the Chinese people back then, were going to Chicago. I don't know why. There was a good, I guess there was a decent Chinatown area over there and they just fit right in over there and then so her first child was actually, um, the father was uh, oh, I guess I don't know.

Speaker 2: 5:31

I've heard different stories so it's kind of hard to know who who this guy was. As far as I heard, he was the one of the babysitters, but he was an orphan from China that came when he was like 17 and somehow ended up in Chicago and somehow ended up meeting my great-grandmother. They may have been, it might've been like a they fell in love kind of thing, but she was married and she couldn't leave her husband and he was too young he was like eight years younger than her. I'm looking for, like you know, who is. I think I can't really pronounce his Chinese name, but they called him Tim Shum, reverend Tim Shum. In all the documents I can see about him, you know from newspaper clippings and everything, because it was a big deal that he was a Chinese minister, I guess. Because he was not, he was a Presbyterian and I think that when he was in China, somebody must have been over there preaching Christianity and converted him, basically, and then somehow got him to come to the United States to go to seminary school and learn everything he needed to learn. He then went back to China and then, I mean he came back and forth quite a bit. I didn't realize it was that um, I don't know, maybe the church paid for it or something like that. So they um, um, so he, he. Then they got to Chicago. They ended up moving, like right after my grandpa was born, to Oakland and then that's pretty much. The Bay area was where they mostly grew up, like my aunts, and and and James and everything like James being my my grandfather, he um was 18.

Speaker 2: 7:15

Apparently, according to the story, the lore is that he had gotten into a fight or cause. He was very mischievous, he had a um. He was described, as you know, fun, loving and just always kind of getting into things and um and he was. He was, I don't want to say mama's boy, but he was mom's favorite, you know. And she um.

Speaker 2: 7:39

I guess at some point he'd gotten to a little fight with a Chinese gang um and and he the guy threatened to kill him. So he was like well, I guess I'm joining the the military because the war needs me and I it's better than being here and getting killed. I'd rather get killed somewhere else. So he ended up getting shipped to um. I found his um actually like a draft here, like from I don't know if you can see it or not it just says to the american consulate general of italy and it just says private, first class, james h shum. And then a number has a theater permit for marriage filed in his 201 file and it says subject enlisted man was inducted on august 2nd 1943 at san francisco, california. Oh, I, so yeah. So basically it's just saying hey, he's okay, he's got a, he's got a bride. And this was written in, uh, april 21st 1947, um, and that's basically just before they got on the ship to come to America.

Speaker 1: 9:04

So he was. So he was still there after the war. So he was there. He was there quite a while then.

Speaker 2: 9:08

I guess he was he was there for. Let's see if this was if he got 43, and this was for four years. He was there for four years but he was like 149th replacement battalion, I don't know. I've tried to Google that to see if I could find pictures of that. You know group of people.

Speaker 2: 9:27

I haven't had a whole lot of luck, but he was basically in Trieste during that really crazy time after the war and I'm still learning a lot about it, about the free territory of Trieste and how they had to. After World War II there was still a lot of problems in that area because it was a major seaport for trade and Yugoslavia wanted it or was claiming it and some I don't know maybe Germany, austria, germany empire had it before or whatever they were fighting over it and so they had to come up with like a treaty sort of thing, I guess, and so everybody seemed to have their own people there. Every country had their own people there to help keep the peace or make sure that the treaty was honored. And I think he might've been there in that kind of capacity. Maybe I haven't learned yet how he met my grandmother specifically, but this but the story is is that he actually was there to date, or to go out with her sister, her older sister, and um, because she was 17 and um, I don't. I don't know how old her older sister was. I've still haven't found anything about the older sister. I've only found stuff about the younger sister, but her name was Roberta. This is all according to my grandmother, because I haven't found anything about her yet, but my grandmother said she had an older sister, roberta, that James came to date her but her mother didn't think that that was a good fit or something and said no, you can't date her, but you can date this daughter, and that was my grandma, elena. So apparently my grandpa was OK with that because he thought she was prettier or she thought she was more voluptuous. I'm not sure exactly what the deal was, but that's just rumors that I've heard what the deal was, but but that's just rumors that I've heard. I obviously I have no way to know that, but they ended up, I guess you know, seeing each other, um, and she must've gotten pregnant pretty quickly because just looking at the dates, like when marriage certificates were filed. So I've the things that I I have are things that I have because my grandmother kept them and then my dad, after she passed away, my dad kept them so I was able to scan all of these documents.

Speaker 2: 11:51

I think I showed you or I sent you, like the certificado, basically the marriage certificate. I can't speak this stuff, I just learned from listening to you. It was Kumune, kumune. Yeah, the marriage certificate. I can't speak this stuff, I just learned from listening to you. It was I've always said commune, it's totally a different thing. Um, and then, so that is in written in that fancy script and then you can see where, um, at some point it was typed. You know, maybe in on different, different um, just, or different stuff, did you? I'm sure you'll you'll have that too, so I don't know where, I'm not seeing it right now. But yeah, the marriage certificate and then the birth certificate. So the, the birth certificate, it it definitely looks like, according to the date, it was february 28th 1947, so and the marriage certificate was like around the same time.

Speaker 2: 12:47

Um, so she, they must have had to go and get all of these documents officially done, because they didn't do it officially.

Speaker 2: 12:56

Like, right, when you're born, I guess, like a certificate, like if you're needing because I asked my grandmother one time because I was trying to find out if I go there, because I always wanted to go to Trieste to see where she was, where she lived, where she was born, where she went to church, everything much about it, and you could kind of tell that she didn't ever elaborate too much.

Speaker 2: 13:23

So I feel like when she came here she really tried to just put all that behind her and become an American um, because she took his last name, for example, um she, whereas now I learned that that's not typical, that um, that the wife takes the man's last name, and she did that. When she signed up, signed whatever stuff she had to sign to come into the United States, but basically what it says. Here there's a I have a registry certificate number, municipality of Trieste civil registry office birth certificate. The civil status officer of the municipality of Trieste. Certifies appear in register of birth certificate of the year 1929, part dot, dot, dot. The series act number 1484. So I'm hoping, like knowing these numbers will help me if I end up finding something and there's like numbers like from this serial act number to this serial act number, like knowing it's 1484 might help me not have to go through thousands, you know yeah, well, well, it should.

Speaker 2: 14:35

What I find fascinating about the whole story was that, um, so your great grandparents or your great grandmother, whatever, uh, that they accepted, that they accepted your grandfather sounds like pretty readily, yeah well, I, honestly I, I think they when I've I've so I've been decoding or translating a lot of letters from her, her younger sister and her brother Brother moved to Australia and he in one of his letters he talks about how he hasn't seen her since 1947. And he has such warm memories of Jimmy. They call them Jimmy, I guess, which I've never heard anybody call him Jimmy, but in all, and they spell it with a G Well, yeah, well, there's no J.

Speaker 1: 15:21

I didn't know that I found that out too.

Speaker 2: 15:22

There's no J in each time, only 21 letters in this alphabet. Okay, that makes sense. And then that he had warm memories of him and, um, that, uh, that, and I guess the only thing I could think of it was such a tumultuous time of there that they just, I think that her mother just was like go to america and start a new life for yourself here. We don't know what's going to happen with this country, you know, uh, world war ii over, but it still wasn't as much over for them as it was maybe for everybody else. It dragged on a little bit longer and I mean, I want to say, just looking at it from that, that point of view, that she was wanting to do what was best for her children, you know, by saying you know you can go and and start a new life and whatever.

Speaker 2: 16:16

But my grandma's story was always that she didn't get along with her mother and that her mother wanted to get rid of her. So, so because she told me that her last few years, um, she lived with her grandmother like she didn't even live and wasn't raised by her, her mother, because they didn't get along, they were very like opposite or something, and, and so her and she was named after her, her grandmother, which is her grandmother's name's, elena, and I found a picture of her headstone, uh, with the dates of her birth and date and death and her last name. That's how that. I think that's what got really confused me and why I was like, oh well, that makes sense, cause they don't take the husband's name, because I thought if her last name was Zuka, which I guess means pumpkin in Italian, so I don't know if he was a pumpkin seller, a grower, a farmer, so her, his, so his name was Mario Zuka. I haven't found any evidence of a middle name anywhere on any paperwork, which is that common that they don't have middle names.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Yeah, I, you know, yes and no. What's interesting about I mean some, you know a lot of the women. There's always a Maria thrown in there, you know, or something like that.

Speaker 2: 17:30

But yeah, typically I.

Speaker 1: 17:32

Yeah, typically I think it could go either way. Now, my dad's mother's family, because they came from a noble family, my great grandmother has like 10 names strung together. Well, I think nobility they did. They wanted to add every relative in there, and saints and people from the bible. I mean this. Everybody and his brother is in this. But I, I don't understand, I don't know why. I I don't really don't know why, but my middle name was italia oh well, that was my.

Speaker 1: 18:09

My aunt's name was italia. Oh really, didn't dare you would you did not dare say Italia, she would kill you If you. She went. She went by, dolly.

Speaker 2: 18:20

Okay, but her first name was Italia.

Speaker 1: 18:22

Her first name was Italia. Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 18:24

This was her middle name.

Speaker 1: 18:25

She didn't mind.

Speaker 2: 18:26

So so his name was Mario Zuka, his, her mom's name was Aurora, and I guess it's pronounced Gurin G-E-R-I-N, and so that's why I have their information, because it's on the birth certificate.

Speaker 1: 18:48

See, now that sounds like a German name, which doesn't surprise me, because the Austrian Empire.

Speaker 2: 18:53

Well, even looking at her picture, did I send you her picture too?

Speaker 1: 18:55

Yeah, yeah, you did yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:57

Yeah, I mean I don't know, she looks like she could be either way. But you're right, gurren sounds definitely not Italian.

Speaker 1: 19:02

It's either German or Austrian or something like that which again it's not a surprise.

Speaker 2: 19:07

Yeah, considering that, the Austrian, what is it?

Speaker 1: 19:11

The Austrians ran Trieste in the north of Piedmont For like a couple hundred years, something like that, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:19

So maybe that's why I can't find any record of her, because I'm not looking in the right area, because she wasn't born in Trieste, but I think Mario was. Because I want to say that my grandmother made it sound like her family had lived there for a long time. She said her dad was a ship captain or a merchant marine captain, so he was gone a lot too, I guess being a captain of a ship. She didn't have any details about the names of any of the ships. She said the last time she saw him he came to San Francisco on on a ship on me I don't know if it was his ship or a different ship to meet, to see her and to meet his grandson, meet my dad.

Speaker 2: 20:04

And my dad was only like four or five years old and he doesn't have a really like strong memory of it.

Speaker 2: 20:11

I guess he spent maybe a week there and um, and I guess my, my dad had really pretty long curly locks or something like that and he took, he took him to a barbershop and and got it like a military haircut style. My grandma was so mad at her dad for doing that because she loved his hair and you can actually see in pictures of him like okay, obviously this is after he met his grandfather, because his hair is so different than what it usually looks in other pictures. There's a story my dad tells me his grandfather brought him a monkey, but it never made it out of quarantine. So, like as a pet, like oh, oh, I'm gonna bring my grandson a monkey. Maybe he picked one up somewhere on his on his adventures, um, but we don't know what happened to the monkey. Didn't make it out of quarantine, if it's true, I don't know. I just think that's a really odd thing to bring your grandson a monkey well, you know that was a long time ago, people.

Speaker 1: 21:13

I think it was a ship's cabin. Who knows what else he was picking up along the way, right, exactly. So I have to ask you because you know, did your father, did he talk about what it was like growing up? You know, late 40s, early 50s, being half Chinese, half Italian, I mean, you know Italians weren't, you know Italians weren't, looked upon as as real Americans at that point in time, as it was, you know.

Speaker 2: 21:42

Yeah, so basically I remember him telling me because my dad also joined the Air Force, after college I think and he said that they his his nickname used to be and it's offensive but Chingwop. So basically Chinese Italian, you know, like, and I didn't. And I remember thinking why is that a, why is that a insult? Like that doesn't sound like a, like a derogatory term. But then it was explained to me later on well, this is what they call Chinese people and this is what they call Italian people, and I'm like, why did they call it time? I don't understand that.

Speaker 1: 22:22

It doesn't make sense and I'm sure they had a lot of names for Italian people back then.

Speaker 2: 22:26

Yeah, yeah, so so that was his nickname, but you know, my dad is pretty. He comes from a really like like I want to say it's in the blood that he's like the strength or the resiliency of the lineage. You know everything from my, my great grandmother in China. I mean, she was like one of the first women to graduate China in um I can't remember the name of the university, but I have it written down somewhere and where back then women didn't get educated and she, um, I guess her mother was a doctor, so maybe it was her mother, that was the first. But they all went to college, like, like they were educated and um, and then my, they went through a lot like on that side of the family, the Chinese side, when I researched that cause I really have to research it all separately, cause the only thing that brings them together is James and Elena in Italy during the war.

Speaker 2: 23:36

You know, and I know that my grandmother said that when she came here to the United States they basically landed in New York. They made their way all the way to the Bay area where his family was. She didn't speak very, very much English and they spoke English and Chinese. Actually, I think all of them, all of him and his siblings, were sent at some age to China to live with his, their aunt, and learn how to speak and write Chinese. And then they like, a couple years later they would come back. I think James came back. I think maybe because one of the wars was was something was going on and he, they were like, bring him back, so um maybe, maybe it may have been, oh, maybe, in the end of the korean war, or something like that well, like I said, he was born in 25.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Well, you know it was a big I mean, obviously there's big revolutions in china and stuff like that. Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:36

Well, there are a lot of orphans over there. My grandpa, well, tim Shum, the one that I thought was my great-grandfather I think he might have been an orphan because nobody seems to know anything about that side of the family. They know more about the great-grandmother's side May Her name is May they know more about her side of the family than they know about his. So I would think that if you were a pastor going to uh, you know, spread christianity to china, you would go to orphanages, right, and and convert them and get them over here and and and. Basically what they loved about it is that he could preach to other Chinese Americans, you know, um, that were in the country and they Chinese people, kind of trust each other. You know they don't trust other people, but if you're, you're a Chinese person and you're telling me something I'm more apt to believe you, you know, sort of thing. So, and I've, I found that to be a part, a big part of, like, the success I think that my family had was they stuck with their people in Chinatowns, wherever they lived, you know, and they built relationships and people trusted him because he was a pastor and my grandmother taught Chinese school, or my great-grandmother Sorry, my great-grandmother Mei. She had several Chinese schools in Berkeley, in Oakland, in Berkeley area, back in the I guess 40s and 50s, maybe even 60s. She did like I don't know. She had boarding houses. She was very. She was always about doing something to make money. I think during the war, when James was in Italy, she actually had to close her school and she went to go work at a parachute factory to, yeah, and then she did a lot of stuff. I mean, she did whatever she had to do. She had a bunch of kids she needed to support and basically the older children would help raise the younger children because mom had to work and dad was well. Tim Shum actually passed away in 1940. So she ended up remarrying again, but she didn't have any more kids with anybody else. She had all her kids with um, with the Reverend. So they um, my, I, I, my dad does have a lot of really good stories. Ironically, my dad's here right now. He flew in last night. Um, he, he plays, he plays. He's been playing tennis since I don't even know.

Speaker 2: 27:12

I guess my, I guess James played tennis, was really big into tennis, and so when he was 16, because they divorced, elena and James divorced when he was like maybe four, four or five, and she left him and basically she didn't have anything, she couldn't even really take him, my dad with her, but she needed to get away and so she just got in her car and she just drove this is what she's told me before she just drove until she couldn't drive anymore and she ended up in Riverside, california, from the Bay Area. So quite a drive and and she the first place she stopped to get food. She asked them if they were hiring and they were, and so she worked at a car hop, like like in Riverside during the 50s and that I think I sent you one of those pictures too. She worked at a place called Ruby's, yeah, and then and she ended up, you know, I guess she explained her situation and they ended up letting her live above the restaurant or above the car hop, and maybe that was part of her pay. You know, pay was a place to stay, she had a car and then she got food because she was working at a car hop and so she was saving up money so that she could get her, go back and get her son At some point, you know, and I'm sure they weren't technically divorced yet or, you know, when she left, because I don't know how all that worked back then.

Speaker 2: 28:47

But eventually she went back up and got him and brought him back and then he didn't really see my grandfather until he was 16. And then when he was 16, he started spending the summers up there with his Chinese family, the summers up there with his Chinese family. So he didn't have a lot of. They all remember him and just had adored him as a child and were thrilled to have him come back and visit and you know. So he had all these aunties that would just dote on him, and even Grandma May, or his Grandma May, my great grandmother would. Would you know they? They just adored him because he was the only boy that, um, that because he, because james remarried eventually and then had several daughters and um, the oh I. I kind of forgot to go back to this part of it, but yeah, so we were talking about what it was like. But so my, my great grandmother did not like my grandmother. She was. She wanted james, her son, to marry a chinese woman and not another chinese woman from america.

Speaker 2: 29:57

Chinese woman like, but like chinese, chinese like go and get one from china and bring her back, you know, like with a matchmaker or something like that. Like, um, that was part of the plan. Uh, according to the lore, was to okay, go there, learn how to speak and read chinese, hopefully find a bride, and then come back, right, well, he never found anybody he liked there, so he didn't bring a bride back and there's a lot of women over there.

Speaker 2: 30:23

He couldn't find anybody you know, I honestly I think he might. He was a. I've heard him described as a lover of women. He, I don't think he wanted to settle on just one woman, you know. So, um, he, he basically came back and then he joins the uh, the army and then goes to Italy and comes back with this Italian bride who doesn't speak any Chinese, doesn't speak any English, and she was like what the heck did you do, you know? But clearly she was eight months pregnant when she got to the United States and so so she had, she had the only son.

Speaker 2: 31:01

So she wasn't popular with my great-grandmother. According to my grandmother, she said that she would go around the house sometimes saying Chinese should marry Chinese and Italians should marry Italians, and that's all she'd say. She'd just walk by and make a comment like that Wow. And so she wasn't well-received. But her new sister-in-laws all loved her because she was about their same age and they thought she was great, and but you know, she wasn't what my great grandmother had envisioned for her son, so she wasn't happy. Now, later on, when he remarried and then had just daughters and he did remarry a Chinese woman, then all of a sudden my grandmother became the cat's pajamas because she had a boy. So she was like I couldn't win with them. I mean it was like I was the worst and then I was the best and then I was like I don't care so.

Speaker 2: 32:00

But the he, my dad, just got a lot. He's very personable, like just growing up. All the stories I've ever heard about him from his Chinese side of the family was that he, that he was just such a nice and good kid Like he didn't get into trouble, generally he was polite and he didn't like. I think a lot of it had to do with being raised by a single mom. Uh, for most of his life he, he was the man of the house, you know so he didn't want to add any more stress and burden to his mother, you know so he, he did well in school. He played sports. He ended up, you know, being very doing very well in tennis, I think he. He went to college, probably got, I think it's, a scholarship with tennis. He played tennis in the art, in the air force, and that's how he met my mother was on the tennis court in Thailand, you know. So tennis is like brought my family, like my family together and in very, like you know, auspicious ways.

Speaker 1: 33:06

Um my mom, so was was he in time? Was he in thailand or in vietnam?

Speaker 2: 33:11

yes, yes, so he was. When he was in thailand he met his war pride, you know. So it was very, you know, I don't know. Just the way history repeats itself. Um, and my mom was a former champion of Southeast Asia in tennis. So I've got pictures of her getting trophies from the king of Thailand and she's even when she goes back.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Now, like my parents go back to Thailand fairly regularly. I think they have a condo there in Hoi Hin and they she's like a mini celebrity over there, like everybody knows who she is Like in, in, if, especially if they know anything about tennis, which tennis back then, I think, was it's still popular there, but it's it's, I don't know she's, she's like, like I said, she's. They treat her very well whenever she's there and I'm always like who are you? So strange that everybody knows who you are? And they just, you know, don't on you like that. I don't imagine it'll be quite the same experience when I get to go to Trieste and I'm trying to convince my father to go with me and maybe my sister too.

Speaker 1: 34:25

Your father. He's never been. He's never been no.

Speaker 2: 34:27

So this is the other thing that was really interesting, why I was saying that I think my grandmother was wanted to just put it behind her. Eventually, my dad once he, you know, you know, he came back from the war obviously had my, my mom, and my mom was pregnant with my sister, and they lived in the Bay area too and they got a house there. I was born in Mountain View, california, my sister was too, and the I guess the the the story is. Eventually he asked my, my grandmother, you know, do you want to go back to Italy, do you want to go back and see your, your family and your in your hometown and everything, and she's, she'd always say nope, no, I want to remember how it used to be, which was during the war, so I imagine I mean she talked about, she would talk about air raids, and you know things like that.

Speaker 1: 35:19

Um, but you have you, you have to have, you have to have cousins there, because she's the only one who came right.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Yeah, yeah, oh, absolutely Well, and I've got all these letters from her sister and I found that her sister I guess it's LIA. So is it Leah or Leah? Leah, probably right, Leah sounds Italian.

Speaker 1: 35:39

Yeah, they would say Leah. I think yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:41

So Leah Zuka is the only one that my sister started corresponding with her back in like the late 1980s I guess, because the letter that I have that is the most the furthest back is from November 29th 1989. And there was a big translation issue, I guess, and I still don't know how well this is translated. It basically says I hope you excuse us if we haven't replied earlier to your greetings, as we were waiting for it says Lisa, but it might have been Leah to translate, which I don't think she could have translated, so maybe it's somebody named Lisa and only now have we managed to respond. I send you our heartfelt greetings. I am the sister of your late grandfather. Like I said, I don't and my name is Livia, so I don't know if that's all translated correctly because of the handwriting stuff. The language barrier prevented us from understanding you earlier. But now that we have managed, I am writing you. Your dear grandmother often mentioned you and Stephanie, Even though we don't know you personally. If you ever come to Italy, be sure that you will be warmly welcomed with much love. I am certain you will feel at home here in your grandmother's homeland, where everyone loved her deeply and has never forgotten her. I prefer to end here with a big kiss to you, your husband and Stephanie. We think of you often and even though we are far apart, you are always in our hearts. Hugs and kisses to everyone from your loving relatives, and for me a big hug and kiss. And then it signed Tia Livia, this one, but everything else is signed. I have signed as LIA, so I don't know. And then the next one was in 1990. But there's all of these.

Speaker 2: 37:28

I'm gathering a lot of information from these translations to help me in my fact finding. So I have found out the name of her two kids. Lydia had a son named Mauro, M-A-U-R-O. Am I saying that right, Mauro? Yeah, Morrow. And then a daughter named Patrizia. And then Morrow married a woman named Barbara and they had one child, I think, named Andrea. That one's translation is hard too. And then, I guess Patrizia's husband died of a tumor or of cancer, but she had two sons named Daniel and Dennis, and I think that's all I've really gotten from these letters. But I don't know any last names of them because, like, obviously, well, no, Mauro would have had his father's last name, so it wouldn't have been Zuka. And then Patrizia well, she would have had no, wait a minute. She would have had her father's last name too, right?

Speaker 1: 38:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:44

Yeah, that's what's very confusing. It's trying to figure out and she doesn't ever write their last names here. Like she just writes Maro and Barbara and Andrea, which says Figlio, so it says son. And then Patricia has Dennis and Daniel, and it says Figli, which equals children, which is so helpful, by the way, the people in the group that have helped me translate this stuff. I'm trying to figure out how to get chat GPT so that I can translate on my own. The handwriting is what is throwing.

Speaker 1: 39:18

Handwriting is hard especially when you start looking at some of those older records and stuff. But you have to go. I mean you have to go You'll. I mean you'll love it. You'll love it when you get there.

Speaker 2: 39:30

Yeah, and well, I'm so curious, though, to find out, like cause my grandmother told me she was born at home, cause I remember asking her what hospital she was born in and she goes hospital. I wasn't born in a hospital, I was born at home, and I was like why were you born at home, everybody was.

Speaker 2: 39:44

She goes only poor people went to the hospital. I'm like poor people got with death in the hospital. You think it would be the opposite. She's like, no, you had a midwife or you had. You know, like it wasn't, it wasn't. And I think she even said somebody would go and tell somebody that, hey, my mom just had a daughter, this is her name and uh, and, and you know where they live, or whatever, and somebody would just write it down somewhere. And then, you know, like I said, they didn't have official birth certificates to to mail out to you or to give you, unless you needed it because you stayed there and never left there. Why would you ever need a birth certificate, right?

Speaker 1: 40:18

no, I mean, my cousins were born there. They don't and they they told me actually that you know they. They might send, you know, an eight or 10 year old to the community to say my mother had a child and this was the date. So you know, the birth dates and stuff like that are sometimes suspect, you know, because it could have been a few days after. The kid could have gave the wrong date, the wrong time, whatever.

Speaker 2: 40:41

Yeah, yeah, just forgot something on the way there A little detail.

Speaker 2: 40:48

That is funny. So so, yeah, so I don't, I don't know what part, because there's all these zones of trieste back then. Of what? Because of the war and because of the treaty, um, I, I do have an address that I use google map on um and it looks like they were only like eight minutes from the. What is that big area over there that's really popular, the unity of something. I don't remember what it was, I was, I guess there's a famous area Like. If you see a picture of it, you'll recognize it because it's a lot of movies and things like that will have been filmed there and there's it's supposed to be. I've learned that it's the coffee capital of Europe and there's like over 50 coffee shops there and some of them have been there since the 1800s. I'm just learning so much about that area and I guess what I'd like to do, I'd love to see if I can figure out a way to do a cruise that ends up there. I guess it's a pretty major cruise um, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 41:51

Yeah, I don't know um I I know there are cruises around italy, but I don't know um well, my one of my aunts, one of my chinese side of the family aunts, said that she was there like last year this is before she knew that that's where my grandmother was from, uh, and because she was, she went on a cruise out of there. And then I think I heard somebody else saying that they went on a cruise and they ended up there at the end of the cruise. So, like I think it'd be cool to be able to end up there, uh, start a cruise somewhere and then end it end it in trieste and then be able to explore and, um, check out. But the google map is really interesting, so I typed in the address where a lot of these letters came from and, um, it's not like it's like a building and I guess it's got a number, but it's, I don know it's. Their address system is very, or the way that they put addresses together aren't like we do.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Well, they put the street and then the number. They do it the opposite of this. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:58

So it's like via the oh gosh I can't even pronounce it, but whatever, it is Sonosi. And then it says on some of the letters it says 42 slash 1. And then some of them it's the same address but it says 44. So, like I don't know if they moved around within that building, how many, how many residents are in the building. It's an old looking building, just according to the Google map. You know how you can do a 360 view of the street and everything.

Speaker 2: 43:31

So it's weird to me to think, oh wow, that's where my family I don't know if they still live there, because the last correspondence we have, like I said, the earliest one came from 1989. And the last one that I have is from 2004. And so I think that it's possible that between Mario and um and Leah they passed away after, after 2004,. Because even some of the last letters she writes about how she's not doing well, she's lost all her teeth, um, you know she's got diabetes and, um, you know, maybe some heart problems. I'm not sure, but I just I want to connect with I don't even know if Mario or Mario Morrow and Patricia are still alive, um, but their kids got to still be alive.

Speaker 2: 44:21

I just don't know and I just haven't been able to find anything. I'm trying to do as much research as I can here and then know what I need to do when I get there so that when I get there I'm efficient with my time and going to the right places and they're all open. They're not closed on that day or whatever. I'm trying to learn from what other other things I've heard from your guests that they've experienced trying to get there and some of the you know difficulties that they've had. But I'm I really want to get my dual citizenship but I'm running into that whole 48 rule, 1948 rule, cause my dad was born in 1947.

Speaker 2: 44:59

Right yeah, so and and it's the maternal side too, so I don't know if, how, how that would work, like how we could, or how I can get around that Cause. I think there is a way around it, but you have to go through it judicially.

Speaker 1: 45:15

Well, yeah, you would have to go through. You probably have to go through an attorney. I'm working through an attorney now Cause I can't wait for the consulate. And plus and plus, if you do it through an attorney, you could do everybody in the line at the same time.

Speaker 2: 45:29

Oh yeah, like my sister, well, and so my, but I think it would be easier, though, if my dad started the process and then just added us kids and like him because I have a sister.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Probably yeah, if, if. Um, because the the the more that you're doing, the closer you are to the line, the probably the easier it's going to be.

Speaker 2: 45:47

Yeah, less paperwork, I would imagine.

Speaker 1: 45:49

Yeah, but I mean I could have you talk to Arturo, who's doing mine, and they do a free consultation, so they would.

Speaker 2: 45:59

Oh, you know what? Actually? That'd be awesome, because there's a lot of people out there.

Speaker 1: 46:03

And he's up in that area too. He's up in that area, oh too.

Speaker 2: 46:06

He's up in that area. Oh good, yeah, definitely share that information with me, because I haven't found anybody that I'm like. I don't know if it's a scam, you know, because I'm sure there's lots of scams out there where they'll take your money and you'll never hear from them again.

Speaker 1: 46:16

Yeah, no, no, they're really really good. I got him through somebody I know in Sicily who uses him. Okay good and, like I said, they'll talk to you, they'll send you a thing to fill out and put all who's married to who and all of that kind of stuff. But, like I said, the good thing is you could do it. You could do it all. You have kids. You have kids. Yeah, I have two sons.

Speaker 1: 46:46

Yeah, so you could do yours and they could. They could if you go through the council that you can't do it that way, but if you go to an attorney. They could do the whole line. And I'm doing it mainly for the kids because, uh, you know they're in their 20s and uh, you know, yeah, if you ever want to go to school there or live there or anything else, it's just great to have citizenship.

Speaker 2: 47:07

Yeah, and I didn't even realize some of those benefits, honestly, for me. My husband and I are talking about get it, you know well, and will he? I guess if I can get mine and he's married to me, then it would be by marriage. He could be a dual citizen too, you can you can, but but you have to.

Speaker 1: 47:23

You have to know a certain amount of the um the italian language.

Speaker 2: 47:27

If you're already starting to learn. If you're blood.

Speaker 1: 47:29

You don't need to know. You don't need to know anything, you don't even know. Okay, you don't know nothing, but if you're the spouse, you have to know some italian okay, well, that's good.

Speaker 2: 47:38

I mean because I, because we're talking about, I mean he's, you know he's gonna probably retire in about five years and I said I would love to not necessarily I don't know if I want to like buy a place and like live and retire there, like that I might, but I want to at least go and, like you know, rent something and spend a couple of years there to really immerse myself and then make that decision at that point. Or we might want to say, hey, let's go to Switzerland, or let's go to he's my husband's part Swedish. So you might want to say, hey, let's go to switzerland, or let's go to see my husband's part swedish, so he might want to go to switzerland or sweden. You know there's so much to do.

Speaker 1: 48:12

You have the whole, you well and as long as uh is sweden in the eu, I'm not sure. Oh, I don't know I would think, so, but but once you have that, once you have, if you have the italian passport, you have the eu passport, you could go anywhere yeah, yeah, that's like I just want to in my retirement.

Speaker 2: 48:30

I want to travel and I want to see things that are older than 200 years you have things that old.

Speaker 1: 48:37

In california they have things 200 years well, yeah, most of it's.

Speaker 2: 48:41

You know like I live in um. I actually live in minnesota now, oh you're in.

Speaker 2: 48:45

Minnesota. Yeah, my dad lives in Arizona and most of my Chinese side of the family still lives in California, la Bay Area, but it's not. I really want my dad to go back to Italy. I want him to get to experience this. And he's still vibrant. He still plays in tennis tournaments across. He's actually that's what he's doing here. He's flying to uh new jersey to play in a seniors tournament because he's ranked as a in his age group for tennis oh wow, that's great he's very.

Speaker 2: 49:22

He's very active. There's not a lot that you know. Sometimes he's more active than me and I'm like god you need to.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Yeah, if there's no other reason that you know sometimes he's more active than me and I'm like God. You need to sit down If there's no other reason to go. You have to go because of the food.

Speaker 2: 49:33

Oh yeah, oh, my grandmother. She would cook finocchi. I don't know if they call it, if you know what that is, but my favorite thing that she introduced me to was finocchi. It basically is is anise, fennel, fennel I guess, I don't know and she would make the fennel salad and we still, like my dad, will go and buy like a case of it in a grocery store or something like that, and we'll chop it up and put a little, uh, olive oil, salt and pepper in there and it's delicious well, you have to say, as a kid we used to.

Speaker 1: 50:03

we just used to eat it raw finocignol, my mother's dialect would say fignol.

Speaker 2: 50:09

Oh yeah, that's funny. Yeah, my grandma called it finocchi, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 50:12

Yeah, dialect Well that's because that's closer to the real Italian. My mother's from the South, so they chop everything off. So we would always say fignol, and there's a place here where you could actually get the sausage with the fennel seed in it? There's.

Speaker 2: 50:31

Oh, I've seen that, I've seen that, oh, you've never had it with the fennel seed. Um, I, if I did I don't remember, but I know I would love it because I love italian sausage, any kind of like. I mean, my grandmother would, we would. I would spend a couple of weeks, uh, every other summer. My sister and I would take turns growing up when we were kids, uh, and we would spend it with my grandmother and I remember going this is her. She still lived in riverside. She had an italian, um, uh, what do you call it like deli. I guess that she would go to.

Speaker 2: 51:02

That was just in this really weird part of town. It was like dark in there. It smelled terrible. I just remember thinking when I would go in there when I was little bit, the smell in this place is icky and she would buy, like you know, coca-cola, mortadella, prosciutto, salami, and you know blue cheese and all and French bread, and we would just make you know cheese and all and french bread, and we would just make you know, oh, we, it was so good. And I don't know if that place is still around, but I can't find that kind of uh, deli anywhere anymore at least not in the south.

Speaker 1: 51:40

Yeah, they've had, they've actually opened up a really good chain here. They've started with one and now there's like five of them.

Speaker 2: 51:46

That's and you're in new york right, I'm in new jersey well stephanie, this is.

Speaker 1: 51:51

I mean, this has been fascinating. I mean I love the stories, I love the you know, the connection, the chinese italian connection, that's like uh, that's like just a super, super uh thing to be and uh I feel like I should write a book because, yes, you should, though. You definitely should, you definitely should. Why not? I wrote one. I didn't know what I was doing, so yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:13

Well, thank you for taking the time and hopefully I can get some more information. I'm sure if I can get there I'll find more information. I'm just brushing up on trying to learn as much Italian as I can right now before I go there. And hopefully, just according to these letters, they are just like please, we'd love to see you. We missed you. We missed your grandmother, which you know. I mean, obviously she's passed away now, but they begged her to write to them in almost every letter. Please ask your grandma, ask Elena to write, just drop us a line, let us know she's okay. And she apparently has maybe did it like once or twice, but not very much. And they it's like they don't understand, like why doesn't she want to keep? Like why are we hearing from you, her grandchildren, but not from her? And I just imagine she just doesn't like to go? She didn't like going back there in her mind because it was it's hard, you know yeah, yeah, no, I'm sure I think that's.

Speaker 1: 53:11

That's probably part of it yeah.