The Legacy of Italian Roots and Family History

What if unraveling your family's past could lead you on an unexpected adventure across oceans and through centuries? Join us as Chris Francese, a passionate member of the Italian American Association of the Township of Ocean, recounts his incredible journey into his Italian lineage, all sparked by a simple school project. Through heartfelt conversations with his grandparents, Chris traces his roots back to towns like Tremonti, Pietro da Fusi, Salerno, and Sessa Aurunca, highlighting how starting genealogical research with family elders can open up a treasure trove of history and stories. 

Imagine the serendipity of stumbling upon a family heirloom in the least expected places! Chris shares the poignant and surprising moments of his genealogical quest, from discovering his great-grandfather’s historical cantina at Pizzeria Vaccaro to meeting distant relatives and finding a book of family histories dating back to the 1600s. These emotional connections and serendipitous discoveries emphasize the joy and profound impact of reconnecting with one's heritage, showcasing the importance of family stories and traditions. 

Embark on a journey through the meticulous process of genealogical research and the cultural richness of Italian heritage. Chris delves into the challenges of navigating Italian records and the rewarding moments of visiting ancestral towns. He also shares his culinary adventures in Italy, painting a vivid picture of the deep connections between food, culture, and heritage. From uncovering the psychological traits passed down through generations to the evolution of family naming traditions, this episode is a testament to the enduring legacy of our ancestors and the power of preserving family history.

Turnkey. The only thing you’ll lift are your spirits.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:14

Hi everyone, this is Bob Sorrentino, from Italian Roots and Genealogy. Be sure to check out our blog and our YouTube channel, our great sponsors, your Dolce Vita, italy Rooting and Abiativo Casa. And very excited today because my guest is one of my brothers from the Italian American Association, from Ocean Township, and so welcome, chris. Thanks for being here. Thank you, bob, for having me on. My pleasure, my pleasure, exciting for me to have one of the guys from the, the club to be on, so you know. My first question is you know why and when did you start doing your research?

Speaker 2: 0:56

so I I think the spark was, you know, one of my, either my niece or nephew, had a like a family tree, you know project or something you know when they were little, and then that kind of sparked. You know what goes back further. You know usually that's parents, grandparents, and then you know, luckily at the time, you know when it hit the interest, you know my grandparents were still around that I could really ask them the questions about. You know who and where and all that stuff. So before I really dug deep, I know I was able to ask about towns and things and you know and parents, names and things like that. So you know that was probably probably about 15 years ago I started doing all that, yeah, and that's kind of.

Speaker 1: 1:45

That's kind of about when I started unfortunately I didn't my grandparents were no longer around, my parents, my father was already gone, uh. But you know, that's what I tell everybody. That's the place to start with the, with the grandparents, you know, uh, if you can, or all the uncles and things like that. So where did they come from in Italy?

Speaker 2: 2:05

So my father's side, my grandfather's parents were both from Tremonti, which is right in the mountain off of the coast, the Amalfi Coast, and then my nana's father was from Tremonti, but her mother was from Pietro da Fusi in Avellino, which was kind of close it's actually closer to Benevento than and then on my mother's side, my grandfather's father is from Salerno, like the city Salerno, and his mother is from Sessarunca in Caserta, and my mom's mother is not Italian, she was english, german, so but I have, I have actually stuff that goes back on on that side. And then actually my her mother passed away when she was young, when she was 13.

Speaker 1: 3:00

So my grandfather remarried an italian woman and that was that grandmother that I knew, and she was, her family was from mataloni and um, oh nice, yeah, you know, I interviewed somebody from tramonti young, probably two years, maybe more, um, so yeah, it's, you know, I'm starting to get to the point where I'm I'm interviewing people that from the same places now. Yeah, it's, you know, I'm starting to get to the point where I'm I'm interviewing people that from the same places now. So it's, it's pretty interesting, you know. Well, you'll find if you know.

Speaker 2: 3:32

It depends on who well you'll find some if you get enough people in. In the association there's a number of people that asbury park was an enclave for people fromremonti, so there's a lot of people in Ocean Township and in the area that were from Tremonti and those areas oh, really, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 3:51

That's interesting, that's very interesting. Well, you know, that's kind of the way it went right. You know they kind of gravitated towards the, towards the same place. Um, you know, interestingly enough, my mother's cousins. They live about three blocks from us here on Bradley Beach and they've been here for geez, you know, I guess they're in the 90s, so I guess in their 60, 70 years they've been coming down here and I think they started as a summer thing and then they wound up, you you know, getting married down here and staying down here. But, um, it's uh, it's unfortunate my mom had passed away just before we got here, so she didn't get to hang out with us, with our cousins, and it's like that. But uh, but yeah, I didn't realize that, that there was so many people from tremonti here yeah, actually my, my grandfather.

Speaker 2: 4:44

When they, when they moved from asbury Park, they went to Bradley Beach. My grandfather grew up in Bradley Beach.

Speaker 1: 4:50

So now you started this, so I guess you started you were helping your niece. Yeah, is that what happened?

Speaker 2: 4:55

Well, you know, that kind of sparked the interest you know I mean for that it was, you know, your parents, your grandparents, you know, at a young, young age they don't really get too far back.

Speaker 2: 5:03

But you know, I, I, you know started asking the questions and I, you know, I got to like my grandparents, maybe my great grandparents names, and then that's kind of like the standstill I was at for a long time. You know, like you know, I didn't think I would ever get past my great grandparents, you know names, and then I'd ever get past my great grandparents, you know names. And then, um, even, you know, even doing the research, uh, you know, online on like ancestry and all that, Uh, I, I always figured, you know what, I'm going to have to go. Someday I'm going to have to go to Italy and do research if I want to learn further past. That, you know, and you know that's that's kind of where I stood for a while. I just kind of developed family trees to that level for a long time and looking up articles and newspaper stuff and all that.

Speaker 1: 5:53

Yeah, I was lucky with my mom's family because they're from a small town in Puyo Torito, and it must have been one of the first places where they started, you know, photographing the, uh, the records, because I found everybody I mean the whole town is in there. Uh, my dad's family, you know they're from in and around naples, which is much tougher because there's there's just so many more people there, um, but now I know you've, because you showed me you have like a massive chart now. Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:25

Yeah, um, I mean the, the, the big, you know, the big step was, um, well, you know, on ancestry, one of like my Nana's cousins daughter, and so I guess it would be like my dad's second cousin contacted me you know about my tree that I have, and she, um, she's like, oh well, do you have you know about my tree that I have? And she, she's like, oh well, do you have you know this information that I guess one of my dad's cousins and you know, aunt, that did some more research on their side of the family and on my Nana's side of the family and, oh, did you know that there, you know we still have family over there and I was saying, you know the question be questioning? No, I didn't know any of this, you know. So she sent me the stuff that she had, which went, you know, a step further past my great grandfather, into you know, his father and mother and all their kids, and there was like 13. You know my grandfather, my great-grandfather is one of 13 and six, like young, youngest brothers, all came here. You know the oldest had the, had the land. You know the. The girls got married off and you know the younger brothers all came here and they all started landscaping businesses and are in and around asbury park.

Speaker 2: 7:39

And then you know what happened was. You know that you know I had the two kind of two names of people that were in Italy and you know she said you know well this, you know this gentleman's a professor. He might or not respond to you, but you know this woman, she's on it, you know social media stuff and she loves to meet. You know new family and stuff like that. So I sent her a message and ended up, you know, contacting with her. So I sent her a message and ended up, you know, contacting with her and you know, just kind of sparked from there. You know, learn, learn more about that side. So it was pretty good.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Yeah, you know, and it only takes that one person to find over there. That that's you know doing it, because they don't do a lot of it over there. But if you're lucky, you know you get to find that person that'll that'll help you with with some of the family and stuff like that. Now, have you been back yet, or you haven't been able to go yet?

Speaker 2: 8:48

Yeah, so we went in 2019, we went and visited the. We went and visited Tremonti. It's the fun, the story is funny. She actually came over, was going to the vacation in one of the islands and had a stopover in New York and had a cousin that had a restaurant there. So we went you know, well, when you're here, let's go, We'll meet you. So we went and met her for breakfast and we're like, well, we're in New York, let's go, let's get. You know, he had a pizzeria. It was down, you know, in St Mark's in New York. We went, we're like, let's go, stop by and say hello while we're up there. He posted pictures on the Tremonti Facebook page with the names oh yeah, I'm like the Tremonti consulate over here and you know, this is, you know, Christopher Francis. This is his family and through that, another woman contacted me that she, you know well who is your great grandfather.

Speaker 2: 9:55

And then, like between the back and forth, we figured out that our grandmothers were first cousins, you know who great grandfather was an older brother of mine, you know and so that kind of sparked the interest like all right, well, I gotta go, we gotta go. You know now that we've established two kind of contact points with people, so we have to go. So we planned a trip and, uh, you know, got to, got to. It was, it was fantastic.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Yeah, so. So what did you feel like when you got there?

Speaker 2: 10:26

Um, yeah, I mean I was a little bit nervous leading into it. I did some Italian classes, I did some I talk to you with, you know, to kind of brush up on speaking, and I was a little concerned about the communication. But, um, you know everybody there and I'll tell you that. You know everybody there and I'll tell you that you know they always say a little standoffish with tourists or whatever. As soon as I said my name and like my family was from there, it was like the lost family came home, you know. And then pretty much everybody I felt like everybody was like that. It was like I'd say my name and they're like oh yeah, welcome home. It was just fantastic.

Speaker 1: 11:04

And you know everybody has that same experience. You know, I've talked to people where they. They were just walking down the street and and somebody come up to them and say you know they, of course they don't wear americans. I mean, they know, they know we don't belong there, right? But as soon as they would say the name, they go running down the street and come with me and looking for people, they're so happy to see it.

Speaker 2: 11:26

We went to one pizzeria, a distant cousin, the Pizzeria Vaccaro. You'll recognize some of those names from the club.

Speaker 2: 11:41

So I explained who we were and who my great-grandfather was. And there was, you know, the older gentleman that was like the you know the grandfather father that I guess, started it back in the you know 60s and, like his son, now runs the place and he gave me the wave, like, come with me, come with me, walk me up the street, and points me to you know buildings at casa vacaro. And that was the house that my great-grandfather they had lived upstairs and he had a cantina downstairs. So they had their vineyards and did whatever, and then he would serve whatever humble food and wine in the cantina.

Speaker 1: 12:17

And he said and you didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 12:22

I had no idea Any of that existed. It's run down, it's just basically a ruin at this point. But that was that one story. And then, when we finally got the chance to meet with the other woman that I said, our grandmothers were first cousins and it was unfortunate, like my, my nano, that year was turning a hundred and hers was turning 99. And she passed away like two weeks before we got her.

Speaker 2: 12:54

So it was a little, you know, it was a little bit of a bummer that we didn't get to meet. You know, meet her maybe, like do a call, you know, and you, you know, I would have loved to do something like that. Um, but you know, we sat down, they met us, you know, at this little like kiosk where you can get coffee and all that, you know it's, and we went over, like all the stuff we have. And then it was like another thing was like okay, come on, get in the car. And we were laying. They just drove us all over the place like meeting people, you know, like whoever you. Okay, this is so-and-so, oh, hey, this is so-and-so, and it was. They just drove all around and then, you know, they invited us over for dinner after that.

Speaker 1: 13:35

But you, know, it was like you know.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Oh, this is so-and-so and this is so-and-so. Who was your you know? And it was you know, one of those kinds of things. It was fantastic you went with your kids.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Yeah, my son was three at the time, oh, so he was real young he was there.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Yeah, he was a little young, but you know I I wanted to go and then you know, we'll go back again. You know now he's going to be nine this year, so, but we just wanted to go, and do you know? Yeah, our first our first trip.

Speaker 1: 14:03

Uh, our son was with us, like 20 years ago he was, he was one and uh, so obviously he doesn't remember, doesn't even know we went, but we, I didn't know any of this stuff. Now, you know, and I wish I did because we, you know, we were, uh, in toronto and um, you know, I've I've told this story before. My father had told us that he had family in tori del greco, just, you know, just outside of naples, and uh, but he didn't say who. I never knew anybody was, I didn't know who was there, and then that, and then two years ago, what? Two years ago now, we were there and it's a depressing that I'm not there again, uh, but I got to meet his first cousins that I never knew existed. It's just mind-blowing, you know it, it really really is. Um, so now you, so you know, like, how many people you have in in your chart? Now?

Speaker 2: 14:56

uh, I mean it's like between my family, my, you know, my wife, my wife's side on there. I mean it's well over a thousand people in my, in my, full tree.

Speaker 1: 15:09

So did you? Did you find anything like you know strange, unusual, crazy occupations, anything like that?

Speaker 2: 15:16

Nothing too crazy, you know, it's all you know Farm workers and you know basically farmers. You know it's all. You know farm workers and you know basically farmers. You know it's just. You know up there it's, you know grapes and chestnuts and lemons and things like that. You know it's, that's, that's that area. You know what. You know what happened to actually. You know you talk about serendipity, right?

Speaker 2: 15:42

So the first woman that we had contacted with that we met here. I asked her to recommend what places to go to and the first one she recommended was booked up and she goes oh well, I have a old partner of mine that you know, his parents have a little. You know what do you call them Aeroturismo and wine. So I booked with them. You know what do you call them Eritreismo and wine. You know, and wine. So I booked with them. And then you know, with discussing you know what we're doing, research and trying to learn about this and that he used to work in the department, like the, you know the government, like the vital statistics, like in the you know. So he had a book. I guess somebody had gotten with, like the priests and like in the, you know in the.

Speaker 1: 16:22

So he had the.

Speaker 2: 16:23

He had a book I guess somebody had gotten with, like the priests, and you know, there was a guy he went through all, all the records. So he, there's a big book, it's like this thick, of all the family trees in Tremonti that go back, you know, to the 1600s basically, and it'll tell you where that first person like came from, what town. So I had that book. So I mean I was just flipping through taking pictures of like everything I could think of and you know to to add on to that and that you know that's. You know I tried to get a copy of it from the, from the town, but they wouldn't. They, you know they wouldn't give me one. They gave me a history of Tremonti book, but if we had gone to the first place I never would have found out about that book, and so it worked.

Speaker 2: 17:11

So he let me borrow it. He said, yeah, you keep those. When you leave, just bring them back. And I spent the whole time going through taking photos, hundreds of photos, of all these books, and I was even now on my dad's side time like going through taking photos, hundreds of photos of you know, all these books, and you know I was even now on my dad's side. You know, you know those three, you know, um, you know great grandparents. I can trace their languages back to the 1600s, you know, I know. One came from Mayori, one came from Tava, deterrenti, on the other side of the mountain.

Speaker 1: 17:42

You know, I mean that's fantastic that they have that. That's incredible, yeah, so that opened up a lot.

Speaker 1: 17:57

I mean that eliminated having to sit in the Hall of Records and do that research for however long. You know, yeah, that's amazing. You know I had a similar kind of thing. Yeah, that's amazing. You know, I had a similar kind of thing. My second great-grandmother was from Switzerland, from Lucerne, and I was like I'm never going to find anything on this woman. You know how am I going to find?

Speaker 1: 18:23

I typed in you know, swiss records or something like that, and this website popped up and it said if you have any questions about Swiss genealogy or write us in English, german or Italian. So I sent them an email and I said great-grandmother was elisa moore, my second grade was elisa moore. You know, have anything, you know anything. Well, they sent me a link to a website that, because she came from a well-known family, um, they had the records, they had the same thing charts like like you had, like, like you know, genealogy charts for probably about 30 or so of the more prominent families in in lucerne, and I was able to get our lines back to like the 14, 1300s and all these hand-drawn charts, you know yeah, um, so yeah I mean that.

Speaker 1: 19:23

That's why I say this. You know there's a lot of accidents, right, the one place was closed. You pick another place and you find all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 19:30

It's amazing, it's really amazing I mean and that's the one thing I love about doing the research is like you, you know, you find that one little like hint, and then it just opens up a door and then you just can't just run with it.

Speaker 1: 19:42

you know it, you know it's you know, yeah, you know, and I tell people, you know, you know people get discouraged and stuff. I say you know, sometimes you take a break for a month or two and you come back and all of a sudden you know that you know something pops up. You know. So now have you? Have you done your DNA?

Speaker 2: 19:59

I have, and so here's the tricky thing Like I'm actually adopted, so my kids, my kids are adopted, yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:07

You know. So I mean I always feel my family is my family when I talk about my family is my family. So but I know from my, you know from paperwork, that you know that my, you know original name was a was an Italian name. So I know at least some parts. I did the dna to see, like all right, let me see how much is italian in there. You know actually. You know biologically, you know whatever it is. So I've done that and you know I've kind of figured out the rough idea of where I'm from. You know bi biologically, where I was from, you know. But I know I haven't pursued it too much to try to contact people. You know through my, you know, doing research, like by doing so much research, I've done enough to figure out who's, who, where and where, where people came from. But you know I haven't really take that step to contact anybody. You know.

Speaker 1: 21:05

Well, yeah, I know, and and you know it's interesting with my kids um, you know, they knew from early on that they were adopted and, uh, you know, my daughter was crazy about finding the birth. I mean, she was bugging us from when she was 16. So I said you have to wait till you're 18. You know, we'll, we'll do it. So they've all you know, they both met, uh, their birth parents. My son wasn't interested, you know, for many, many at all, and I used to say to him, you know, if you, he wasn't interested. And then, through ancestry, his um, his sister, contacted me and said you know matthew's sister and I'd like to meet him, and is it okay? And I said, well, you know, he's a grown man. I said I'll ask him, it's up to him, and uh, so he said yeah. And you know the interesting thing about my son his father was puerto rican, my wife is half puerto rican and they're like fifth cousins. And did so, did you? Did you say your mom's family was English and such English and German, or was your grandmother?

Speaker 2: 22:07

yeah, my mom's mother, and so with that one so on ancestry looking up things, so I guess, like her, her great grandfather died and his brother remarried his wife and then had other kids after her grandfather. So from that line, I guess one of the people of her generation, whatever it was, did all the research and traced everything back to you know england and you know wherever. So that goes back to like the 1600s for for that side and then, um, so because of that, you know that guy, you know his work. I just piggybacked off and he was like, yeah, use whatever you know, use whatever you know. There's anything you know. I use whatever you know. There's anything you know I need help with.

Speaker 2: 23:04

You need help with you know everybody, you know everybody that does research is pretty helpful, you know, with with each other and that's one thing I've, you know, I've kind of learned is everybody's trying to help each other, Anything, anything. I have that you can use.

Speaker 1: 23:16

Go right for you know no-transcript, all that kind of stuff it is.

Speaker 2: 23:50

I I always say there's, like you know, one, maybe two in each family that's got this crazy thing that they have to do all this searching, you know well, yeah, I mean, the one thing that you know kind of confused me a lot was, you know, my, my grandfather's mother, like I had, you know, her name, you know was ferrara. And then, you know, when I was looking back through trying to figure out, like all right, well, what was her? What did she change her name? What was her maiden name? I'm trying to figure that stuff out and like, another part of it is my grandfather's father died. He died in the influenza epidemic in 1918, so when my grandfather was young and she remarried like a second or third cousin, that was Ferrara. So that like confused me.

Speaker 2: 24:41

Once I figured that out, I go, ah, you know, and then, like that, you know, that was like you know. And then, um, you know one of my, you know, back to the DNA, you know, like I didn't find anything. But you know my mother did it and you know, so she had another extended, you know relative that was like her grandmother's brothers. You know family, know family, and you know my grandfather, when I asked him, me, you know, he told me he's like my father was from salerno, my mother was from caserta, and I'm like you know, and now, once I did the research, I'm like that could be.

Speaker 2: 25:15

Where is that? Like, what's? What's the specific town name? Like you know, I don't know. You know, like I didn't know if it was specifically you know those towns and I had the longest time trying to find stuff. And then she had posted some stuff and found the um, the draft card for one of the kids that had the town name, and that just then, then then that opened, you know, that opened doors for me. It's like little things like that, you guys, you know, when you search for you know you're doing your research and it's like what am I looking for? And you go on that draft card and you see, and it's like sorbello, I was like, and then so I started looking that up and I was like oh all right, there we go you know, sorbello is like a part of sessarunga and caserta you know, well, well, yeah, and I had the same.

Speaker 1: 26:05

My father's family was the same kind of thing. They, you know, they always said we were from Naples, right, which everybody said I mean, it's, you know, there's all these little towns around there. But then I was told that he was from Caserta, he was born in Caserta, which, okay, you know, and it wasn't until I started, you know, doing my citizenship thing that I got his birth certificate and found out he was actually born in Pagani. So, you know, that's the hard part. You know, the family, they just, you know, say these things and nobody's really, really, you know, positive about it. It and the same thing with my grandmother.

Speaker 1: 26:43

Uh, she was from, uh, another small little town, chercola, outside of naples. You know, again, they always said that you know they were born in naples. But uh, yeah, you know, cracking some of those things gets like really, really hard. I mean the the good thing about, at least in italy, the women don't change their names, so that's kind of makes it easier on that end, as opposed to searching for american parents, you know yeah, I mean my, you know, one of the longest times I had researching through, you know what was.

Speaker 2: 27:15

You know, my grandfather's father, you know, was from salerno and I was like, well, let me just start looking at salerno and then looking like a city, looking through city records. I mean, you know, I would go on Tremonti and look and it'd be like you know a couple, maybe a hundred images of births or whatever you know, whatever it is. And then you go, I go on Salerno, and it was like it's like 900 images that you're like you know and hope you know, if there's no index, then you know, then you're going through every one and a lot of them they're you know a lot of years. There wasn't an index. So I'd be just be like, yeah, you know, you know, and I know you know into the line where it has like the parent name or whatever.

Speaker 1: 27:53

So I'd just be zoned right in on that, like clicking like next, next, next next just looking for the name you know yeah, well, that's why that's, like I said before, that's why I was so lucky with my, my mother's family, that everything that you know, everything was out there and and uh, um, we went, we went there last year and uh, yeah, they were just, they gave us a whole tour of town and there was a lawyer there with, uh, uh, he, he lives in what was the castle right, and he brought us into his house and, you know, showing us, you know there was a plaque on the wall with all the Duke's names and stuff like that. They just, you know, just so, you know open and understanding about everything, and met the mayor and brought us into the town hall and they took us for car. I mean, just, they couldn't do enough.

Speaker 1: 28:48

You know it's, it's really quite amazing. You know, uh, it really really is. And uh, you know just everything in it. You know the food is the food right. I mean everyone's bringing this up and everything. You can't, you can't describe it. The people have never been there as much as we, as much as we try at the, at the uh, at the club right, to make italian food.

Speaker 2: 29:12

It's nice to say well you know it's funny when I went. You know they've invited us over for for dinner um you know it's like you know the cheese and meats and you know some arugula salads and whatever. And then it came out with like the pan with the freshly fried you know the big sardines, the big anchovies or whatever. You know the elite, the real ones, you know. I was like okay, yeah, let's go for it.

Speaker 1: 29:38

And then like, but then they come out with like the octopus and I was like I can't do it, I'm sorry, like it's not you know, yeah, you know, I'm not a I'm not a real big fish person, but we, we were, uh, we were in this uh town in calabria called sheila and, uh, they had set us up in a fish restaurant. I was like, well, yeah, what am I gonna do? I gotta restaurant. I was like, well, yeah, what am I going to do? I got to eat and it was like the guy just, you know, stuck a bucket out into the water and just pick this stuff up. That's how fresh it was. You wouldn't even know. And there's a place that's all they make is. Well, they make other stuff, but they've known for their swordfish sandwiches and all it was was like swordfish, olive oil and lemon on a, on a roll, and it was just blew you away, knock your socks off. Uh, you know.

Speaker 1: 30:30

But when we went to my dad's cousins, same thing they had made. They had made stuff for us, um, but in the one town in calabria where my great-grandmother's or my grandmother's family comes from, uh, everything was made there the cheese, the olive oil, the olives, the bread, the wine. There wasn't anything that was there. That was, you know, came from a super market, right, right, um, and I guess a few years. You said you went and had the pizza and stuff like that. But yeah, it's just phenomenal. I mean I promised my wife, if we go next year she wants to do. We did a couple of family trips she wants to see Florence and Pisa and Milan and that stuff.

Speaker 2: 31:17

So I said, okay, next time we'll go, we'll do the touristy kind of thing yeah, um, you know the one, you know the other thing that you know, you know they get. You know, when I mentioned they gave me like the book it's a history of Tremonti and then you know that sparked I found some other books. You know that. Have you know for that region, for the history of that region?

Speaker 2: 31:39

but you know learning about the history of the area, some of the family history like we, you know, I, you know. I mentioned, you know, when we emailed that. You know her grandmother was old enough to remember her grandfather, you know, and you know, so she could pass on stories of you know, her grandfather to me. You know so, of my great great grandfather, I could, you know, so they were able to pass on that story. So I have, you know, I have recordings she's I mean, she's speaking in, you know, neapolitan and you know, and you know they translated for me, what she's talking about and I can get some of it. But you know, you know they remembered stories of when my great grandfather went back to visit you know, and like how we, how you know what, you know, what an exciting you know story. You know he was you know, dancing around.

Speaker 2: 32:32

You know they had the brazier in the, you know, in the cantina to keep, you know, to keep your feet warm, your hands warm. You know he would dance around. They told me, you know he, you know he would play the tambourine, the tamborello, you know, around you, around the cantina. I have a number of stories of now, four generations ago to pass on to other people about. They said one of the things to take a step back. I listened to you on the Italian American podcast. One of the episodes that they've had in the past was you know, some of the you know some of the stuff with the spiritual kind of stuff, with the Madonnas and the devotions and the stuff that touched me in a way that I you know, in a way that I, you know. And then I found out, going to visit that my great-great-grandfather, he was a devotee of the Madonna and Montevergine and would go on a pilgrimage. He would walk from Tremonte to the Montevergine and back. So I was like you know, to see those kind of things kind of come together. You know it was quite a thrill. Like I was like wow, that's's I never even thought of. You know that they would even you know, be. You know that far away, you know, like I mean, for for now it's like an hour and a half driving, but for them to have to walk there or on a car, you know that's a, that's a pilgrimage. I mean, that probably took weeks to do that and know.

Speaker 2: 34:08

So I have these stories now of my family and you know, and what I had, you know from you know, the like I said, the woman that contacted me with the originally the information, she had a photo of my, of them, of my great, you know, pasquale Vaccaro and his wife Maria, that they had never seen before. So they had never seen that photo. And I said this is the photo that I have. And then immediately they look at it, they go, oh, they go, yeah, he looks like so-and-so, you know.

Speaker 2: 34:41

And then you know, oh, yeah, he was tall, like you could see that she's like clearly up on a stool or something, because you know she's a lot short, you know, but like, yeah, oh, yeah, he, yeah, he was, yeah, he was very tall. Now, I know he has blue eyes, like stuff like that, like it's, it's. It's crazy to find out that kind of information. You know that, you know, like I know, like I said, I never would have thought I could find past my great-grandparents that I knew that were here, that came here, you know yeah, and you know, and that's kind of what I figured when I first started I figured.

Speaker 1: 35:09

Yeah, maybe I'll get to the great-grandparents, maybe great-great-grandparents. You know, if I'm lucky, um, but you know I was, I mean my you know, my father's mother. I is just, you know, I I'm back eight centuries with her because of her roots. But it gets beyond just dates and and places. You know, when you start, when you start um, going through that stuff and and, um, you know, next week I'm going to be interviewing somebody I interviewed before, judy wilkins smith, who's um, she's like a I don't almost like a psychology, I don't know, almost like a psychology genealogist or something like that.

Speaker 1: 35:51

And you know we've talked before about the physical traits of people, but you know what's also passed down. Which intrigues me is, you know, your psychological traits get passed down too, and so you know we're going to be talking about that next week and it and it should be real interesting because, like you mentioned well, the blue eyes, red hair, that kind of stuff. But what did you inherit from them that makes up the rest of you, how you think, how you act, how you integrate with people, and things like that. You know, I find that to be real fascinating and my wife tells me all the time I know where you get that from, you get it from your great, great, great, great, great, great parents.

Speaker 2: 36:37

You know it's funny I mean even on sort of like gesture, wise. You know the one, the one photo we have of my, you know, my grandfather's father is this you know, army portrait of him, probably 19 years old or whatever he was, you know, in in Italy, and the way he's standing and the way he has his hand in a certain way and like when we saw the, when we saw the photo we found, you know, we found it buried away in my nana's house and it was like, you know, my, you know your dad always holds his hand like that, you know, like he's always like doing something. You know this like kind of like.

Speaker 1: 37:17

You know, you see that you see him like you know it's pretty wild I'll tell you my, my, my wife's mother died when she was pretty I guess she was about 68 or 69. And my wife's niece as she started to get older, she would have facial expressions and and things and talk like mother-in-law and she, but she never. I mean, she never knew her. Yeah, it's weird, you know, it's really really weird. So, yeah, so that's kind of the thing.

Speaker 1: 37:59

You know, what other kinds of things do we? You know, do we pick up from you know the people? And one of things that judy talks about is that, uh, you know you. You, if you understand that you could change it. You know, so, if you, if you've picked up something from somebody from two or three generations ago that you don't like, there's ways of changing it. So it should be. I think it should be. You know, pretty interesting conversation, uh, but you know, even with, even with handwriting, I have signatures of, um, some of my, my dad's, uh, grandfather and great great grandfather, uh, and you could see a pattern in the handwriting.

Speaker 2: 38:41

You know, yeah, it doesn't look exactly alike, but you could see you know, the way they haven't told. A number of times my writing is like my dad's writing.

Speaker 1: 38:50

Yeah, I see my handwriting is like I don't know who, but it's. My handwriting is like the guys when you pull up the Italian record and you can't read it. That's what my handwriting is like. I don't have any of the ones that had good penmanship. I always get the guy who writes like me. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:10

I went to school for art and I did a lot of stuff with calligraphy. So I, like you know, and I mean that's a different, that's a different thing from your handwriting, you know, because I feel like that's more. You know, deliberate with what you're doing. When, then, then, when you're just scrolling, you know scribbling, scribbling.

Speaker 1: 39:27

But um. So let me ask you. So let me ask you because I believe, I believe, I believe that you could, you could, uh, you know, you could understand people's traits, uh, from their handwriting. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 39:43

Like, how, like, well, like, like, um like if they're more deliberate with what they're writing.

Speaker 1: 39:50

Well, yeah, Are they shy, are they loud, are they a leader? You know that kind of stuff, certain things like that.

Speaker 2: 40:02

Yeah, there's certain things like you know you can see more expressive, kind of like you know accents to things. You know you can see more expressive, kind of like you know accents to things.

Speaker 1: 40:11

You know that when people are like a little more, you know I guess outgoing in there but uh, and the reason I ask is that is, you know, kind of in europe they they put a little bit more into that. They kind of america not so much, but they they look at handwriting analysis a little bit more. I had someone who does that kind of thing I forget the technical term for it now but she analyzed a signature. I wouldn't say it a hundred percent, but it was pretty close to what that person's was like, you know. So yeah, it's an interesting kind of thing. I know a lot of people don't believe in it.

Speaker 2: 40:59

I I kind of do myself. Yeah, I found that. I mean, you know, doing the calligraphy and you know, practicing handwriting in certain styles has helped and that's helped me with deciphering documents, you know, and, uh, you know it's it's hard to explain to some people when they're like, well, what do you think this is? What do you think that I'm like, yeah, that looks like a j or that looks you, you know, like you know that. No, you know. But you know you gotta look at, look at other documents. So you're looking at your own. Well, flip through pages and look for what does an R look like on that? You know that's an R or an S or whatever it is Like. Is there some wild? And then some wild accents to things that they did a hundred years ago that they don't do anymore?

Speaker 2: 41:47

For me, specifically, it almost looked like a J. For Francis it would be an S, the S would come down real low. It almost looked like a J. Certain names in the town, the village names and stuff like that. In Tremonti, the Francis come from the village names and stuff like that. Like, so, like in Tremonti, like the francis come from the village Corsano and I would see it. But it looked like core Jono, like with a J, but then I figured out, no, that's they. The S was like a hanging ass down and I was like that's, that's a really cool little, you know, historical thing. You know, I started kind of trying to do that, but then it just doesn't look right anymore.

Speaker 2: 42:29

You know like yeah, maybe I'll do that. You know a little bit, and then it just doesn't quite look right anymore. You know that was the way they did it then and it's you know it's gone past that. Now you know.

Speaker 1: 42:40

And they would abbreviate a lot too. You know, when you start understanding how they abbreviate some of the names and stuff like that, like Maria, they will put M-A period right, right.

Speaker 2: 42:54

And that's the other thing you've got to. You know, a lot of the female names are Maria, something whatever. It's always Maria first and then their real name Maria, christina, maria, whatever you know.

Speaker 1: 43:06

Yeah, yeah, no, exactly I have. I have my, my mother's family, her uncle, dominic, had four brothers before him named Dominic. So they, you know, they all passed away. They passed away at once. So the next son that came along named Dominic. The next son came along and I was going like away at once. So the next son that came along named dominic. The next one came along and I was going like you know, first I was like who are all these diamonds? Then I realized they, you know, they were all passing away and I was like, geez, when do you get to the point, when do you get to the point where you say maybe dominic's not the right name for this?

Speaker 2: 43:42

these kids, you know yeah, I came across that with uh, with vincenzo, on a couple. There was a couple and then they just didn't make. You know, neither of them made it and you know, yeah, but they would, they would stick with it, they would really stick with it.

Speaker 2: 44:00

It's, it's really, you know, really quite amazing you know, to go back through and see, like the naming tradition you know, for for my, you know my dad was carl, his grip mike, and my grandfather was americanized to sam, but his name is severio. Then his father was carlo, his name was severio, you know, and you know we broke the tradition and we know, then we know we have, we have americanized names but like um you, know I need my son severio, after my grandfather, you know my brother was supposed to be ubaldo.

Speaker 1: 44:33

That was my, my, my father's father, uh, and since my brother was the first son he was, my mother said I love you dearly, but you know, we're in america or I can't, I can't. So he's john, uh, and uh, I don't know where Robert came from. You know, they didn't, they didn't do their traditions, but you know, certainly, all my grandparents, a lot of my older aunts and uncles, all follow you. We have, we have a lot of Luigi's, and Francesco is in my family. That's the. That's, that was the name you know. Well, listen, chris, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate you taking the time. I, you know. Um, well, listen, chris, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate you taking the time. Um, I I, you know I could talk about this for hours and days, you know, I know well, we'll have to uh, we'll have to get together and do something.

Speaker 2: 45:19

You know I've, I, I, you know I've gone in front of the, the association, at the meetings and you know, just just to even you know, know, tell everybody like write down your information, write down everything you know. Even if you're not interested, someday someone might be interested. And once that information gets lost it gets harder to find. You know, there's always somebody somewhere in the family that gets interested in you know, in what the history is, you know. So I always implore people like write down what you know, tell everybody what you know, this way you know. And what the history is you know.

Speaker 1: 45:50

So I always implore people like write down what you know, tell everybody what you know, this way you know everybody has that information, you know well, yeah, and the big advantage that that we have now is, you know, if you, if your grandparents are still around, or you know older aunts or uncles or something like that, you know, tape them, you know, get it on video if they're willing to do it, um, and then you could go back and save it. Or you know, even now you could put, you could put that stuff on ancestry, ancestry and everything. If you want to do that, you know, um, all right, well, I'll see you at the club.