S12Ep15 JSAs/JHAs More Than Something to Pencil-Whip

Unlock the secrets to revolutionizing your safety practices at work and everyday life, turning your JSAs/JHAs into a 24-hour mindset!

Host: Tim Page-Bottorff
Guest: Pete Batrowny

Transcript

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

00:08

Welcome back to SafeTalk with SafeStart. I'm your host, Tim Page-Bottorff. Today we have an interesting topic that I believe you'll find not only intriguing but extremely helpful. He's a member of our SafeStart consulting team. He's an environmental, health and safety and physical security executive with a progressive career history and a track record of success on a global scale. He's a US Army veteran. Pete, thank you for your service. It means a great deal to me and a great deal to our organization and to our customers as well. He is a leader that digs deep and works to examine programs across all levels of an organization. He's also fluent in Spanish. I guess full disclosure is appropriate here. Pete and I there were teammates on a fairly complex project for our clients through our advisory services group, and he is one of the smartest persons I know. Pete, welcome. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

01:00

Thanks, Tim. You're far too kind with that introduction and I'm really happy to be here today to talk about a topic that's, you know, really important to me, and I think that our listeners are going to find value in it, not only as they help the folks that they work with be safe, but they could also use it themselves at home and while they're in their vehicles driving back and forth to work or wherever they have to go. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

01:24

So thanks for that, Pete, I appreciate you being here. I just got back from a safety conference three days of just immersive training and risk-based JSAs. There was a lot going on in this conference and my mind is full and I'm really excited to talk about this and see how it interacts with that education I just received, Of course, JSAs JHAs been around them for quite a while. But primarily the reason why I've asked you here today is to discuss this concept. When I heard of it, it just made perfect sense to me and so, for our audience, would you just describe briefly the concept of a JSA mindset, and we'll take a deeper dive. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

02:03

Sure Tim, you know, as you mentioned, JSA, JHA, pre-job briefing been around for a long time, kind of a tried-and-true process program at most businesses. But really what we're going to talk about today is kind of transforming that tried-and-true process into a personal skill that people can use at work. They, they can use it at home, use it on the road and really develop it from a personal skill into a habit so that when we encounter hazards or hazardous energy, we've got an extra tool in our toolbox to help keep us safe. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

02:38

That's great. I'm thinking that using something everywhere is what safety is all about. Typically, what you'll find is that a lot of our customers, when they've said it out loud, we want you to go home safely at the end of the day, but I don't think they turn the switch off. In other words, they're not turning the safety switch off. They still care about these people all the way around the clock. So giving them a tool just like this is going to help everybody, and so can you tell our listeners how you came across this concept. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

03:04

Sure, Tim. So in one of my past roles, I had responsibility for global safety and other responsibilities, but primarily global safety, and when I first took the role at the global EHS team, I had two main priorities. One of them was to develop a safety culture and the other was to take a look at the problems that we were having with serious injuries and fatalities, and I think our listeners that have had responsibilities for those two challenges in their business know how closely related they are. So that was really kind of the beginning of the path that led me to the thought process of job safety analysis mindset. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

03:49

So, a little bit of cultural transformation is what you're saying and just think of that's perfect. Thank you for that, and I just wanted to review. So, it's likely I'll ask you a question just for our listeners' sake, so they can come back and take notes. One of the things I do mention is that you might want to sit down, relax and grab a pen and grab some paper and take some notes, because in this kind of a podcast, where there's so much great information, they don't want to miss anything. So how did you approach these challenges when you came up with these concepts? 

Pete Batrowny Guest

04:18

So, you know, the first thing I did when I went to that role was kind of take a look at all the programs that we had in place and do kind of a gap analysis, take a look at the existing programs to see if they were being implemented in an effective way, see if we needed new programs. And so, after we got that list of you know programs, policies, procedures that we were going to evaluate, we prioritized them and of course, one of the ones that rose very quickly to the top of the priority list was our job safety analysis pre-job briefing standard. So that's kind of where we started with this process of, you know, continuously improving that JSA program. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

05:00

Continuous improvement. Talking about JSAs and JHAs, you even talked about task analysis. These are all several great components, and overcoming challenges is the biggest part. But incorporating a JSA mindset, I totally get it. I totally get it Now. So just do us a favor lead us through the evolution of your JSA program and what your team found? 

Pete Batrowny Guest

05:23

Sure, Tim. So, you know, once we kind of decided to work on the JSA program get that in our continuous improvement cycle first thing we did was take a look at our global standard and we were pleasantly surprised. It was actually a pretty good standard. It was based on some industry best practices, you know. We listed the steps, identified all the hazards involved with each step and then came up with mitigative techniques for each one. So that was one of the good things that we had found. But we looked at how it was actually tactically being employed. That's where we found the opportunities for improvement. 

05:59

One of the things we found was that JSA didn't always cover the entire job. It usually started at the job site and ended the minute the job was over, and I think some of our listeners might be able to relate to that. You know, for example, if a team was working out in the field, the JSA didn't cover the drive to the job site or the drive back, and we both know that that may be one of the most hazardous parts of that job. So, it was really the timeframe that we took a look at. Another thing that we looked at was that they were being inconsistently performed out in the field we observed people doing JSAs.

06:38

The most typical thing that we found was one individual filling out the documentation and then, once the documentation was complete, he would read if we were lucky read the documentation to his team, have the team sign it. JSA document would go in a folder, guys would go to work. So that's pretty typically what we saw going on out in the field. And you know that mentality of thinking of the JSA as a document, as a compliance activity, you know it manifested itself in one kind of funny way to me. I had a colleague and every time we met to discuss the JSA improvements he would kind of make that hand gesture where he was writing on his hand. In his mind when he heard the word JSA he thought of that document, thought of that compliance activity, and we really came to the realization that we had to get people out of that mindset of thinking of the JSA as a compliance activity and transform it into a valuable process to identify and mitigate risk that's very transformative. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

07:43

So, if they're actually thinking it's a checklist and then have something they've got to follow, it's likely that they won't raise the situational awareness. They're literally looking at a piece of paper. I totally get it. And then one of the biggest things that you just mentioned all the way back to the approach and into these individual program elements, was a gap analysis. So in in identifying risks, you can see in systems approaches that having identified risk in the very beginning doesn't mean that you can't always continue to identify risks. That means having this mindset is basically just that. 

08:18

Driving into work is quite literally. I agree you probably can find some statistics today that shows that's one of the most dangerous things that we do driving to and from work. But if you're always raising that awareness and thinking, looking what kind of hazards could be around the corner, that's a perfect approach. So JSA mindset, I get it. Your program was implemented, you did a gap analysis and then, finally, consistent discussions, which is extremely important. So now you and I know what turned the tide, sadly, kind of. Just share what you think to our audience, what you found in that regard. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

09:03

Thanks, Tim. And yeah, as we all know, when we're doing a transformation like this of a program, there's a lot of things that go into it. But when I think back about this, one of the pivotal points was the evaluation of a couple of fatal incidents that we had. And, unfortunately, when I went to that role as a global EHS leader, one of the unfortunate duties that I had was to go out around the world and investigate fatal incidents, and two of them come to mind that really helped us transform our thinking about the JSAs, and it involved two young workers. One was in his late 20s, one was in his mid-30s. And you know it's really difficult for me to talk about these fatalities, Tim, because you know it's not just a statistic. You know these guys, you have to go to that work site, you have to talk with their co-workers and really dig in to find out, and it's really probably one of the most difficult tasks I've had in my entire life, including my time in the military. 

10:11

But as we looked at two of these incidents in particular, we found some similarities that kind of led us to why we wanted to, or the importance of improving the job safety analysis and developing it into a personal skill. 

10:27

And you know, one of the incidents involved fall from height, the other one involved drowning, but similarities between the two both of the incidents occurred after the job was over. The tasks that the guys were doing were outside of the parameters that were documented in the JSA, and so we really started thinking about how powerful a JSA could be if it was a personal skill and not thought of as a process that we had to do for compliance In case a member of leadership came by asking for the documentation. We really wanted to transform it into a personal skill, make it into a habit that would actually help people negotiate hazards when they saw, interact with the hazardous energy and do it in a healthy way, so that you know, as you mentioned, not only go home safe in the same condition they came to work, but also come back to work tomorrow in the same condition you went home right. So that's really what kind of led us to zero in on the, on the JSA, and really got passionate about transforming that into a personal skill. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

11:38

I'm so glad you said that. They said it at a couple of conferences just that we always worry about people going home safely, but what do we ever say? Come back to work safely and then giving them the tools. So that's a lot of what we do at, say, stars. We give people tools so they could take it home and then eventually, hopefully, they get to use it with their family. 

11:57

But having to investigate a single fatality, let alone two, that that can't be easy and I know that's got to be hard to share. Uh, really appreciate it. So, unfortunately, I know that's probably what turned the tide for you. But in regards to coming up with something, most people are reactive in that situation and trying to change habits, trying to get those tools. Those are tough conversations to have and we spend most of our lives as safety professionals and for the better part of SafeStart, what we do at SafeStart is to try to get people to think more proactively and it's not necessarily easy when they're not prepared to do it. A lot of what we see in COVID-19 is exactly just that we're reacting and then we get a lot of statistics and a lot of things that happen. And if we just raise situational awareness. 

12:45

My awareness yesterday at the airport traveling was extremely high. But I was using your terminology, JSA mindset. I was thinking around the corner. If I had to sit down in this chair, what do I got to do? Do I need to clean it? Do I need to sanitize it? Do I need to wash my hands? Obviously, those are questions that people are asking now, but how it relates to work, it's the same thing. If I look around the corner, am I gonna see a forklift? Am I expecting a forklift or I expect a tug at the airport? Those kinds of things come into play. So, I really appreciate that. I just want to bring that back up. 

13:21

So, walk our audience through some details on the changes so you know, the first thing we did was really try to change everybody's thinking about the job, safety analysis and pre-job briefing and make that thinking shift from a compliance-based process to a personal skill. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

13:42

That could be very valuable if it was done right and doing the things that you had just mentioned Taking a look at everything that we do and what are the steps involved with that, what are the hazards that I might encounter with each one of these steps. 

13:55

And then we add a little bit of a twist that we learned from SafeStart is, when we encountered those hazards or those risks, what's the worst that could happen if we don't negotiate that risk or negotiate that hazard in a healthy way and then develop the mitigative techniques that are going to help protect us as we go through the various steps in a job. We expanded the timeframe that it covered so that people were thinking in that way throughout the day, not just when they got to the job and were, you know, doing what, what most of us perceived as the hazardous steps in the job. It was a continuous thing that was going on all day long. And then we also had to transform the system a little bit to help support the development of that JSA mindset as an individual skill, as an individual habit. So that's kind of in a nutshell the thought process that we went through to make that transformation from a documentation process to a valuable skill that we can learn, practice and develop into a habit. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

15:01

Perfect. Moving into habits is extremely important, but you said something about compliance. So, switching over, changing from compliance to habit, that's probably a very daunting task. But I got to say I have learned throughout the years that compliance is a great motivator, not for operators and employees but for supervisors and managers. So, to get them motivated it has to hit them. In the personal checkbook I've seen compliance work really well. But when you go into safety training, that's the first thing you say we've got to do machine guarding because compliance. We've got to do PPE because compliance. I've got to certify at a job hazard analysis or, in our case, the JSA, because compliance. 

15:52

It would be so much easier if we could just get people to do those kinds of things. I see so many parallels with facial coverings right now in what we're dealing with, and the pandemic has brought the best and the worst in people. But you also see this in safety at the workplace, in the workplace. So, converting this from compliance to habit, that's not an easy thing to do. Actually, I could probably bring you back on a podcast talking about converting or changing from compliance to habit. I bet you we could probably do some research and have a good time with that conversation. So, thanks for that. I know that's a big change. And then talking about what the worst could happen; I really appreciate you bringing that up. So, did you make any adjustments along the way to the systems to support the development of that mindset? 

Pete Batrowny Guest

16:34

Yeah. So, as we've been kind of alluding to Tim, it's really important whenever you're trying to develop personal behaviors, personal actions, develop a shift in mindset, in the safety climate or safety culture. You know, it's really important from my perspective and I learned this along the way you have to adjust the systems, you have to adjust the programs to support the development of the skills and actions that you desire. And not only that, you have to make sure that the leadership and especially supervisors that have that continuous interaction with workers out in the field have the skills to support that. So, kind of the way we looked at it, we had a program you know some people call them safety contacts, we call them safety walks where leaders would go out in the field, and that was also in a continuous improvement cycle as well. 

17:28

And one of the things we had recently added to the, to the safety contacts, was that the leader would engage in a safety conversation with the folks and review the job safety analysis with the people. So, what we found out is that within about 30 seconds of a leader approaching a job site, he would ask for that job safety analysis document and then use the document to kind of guide the conversation with the guys. That was what we started with, and what we did was transform the leaders into saying, okay, don't ask for the job safety analysis document right away, because all that does is kind of validate what the team came up with and documented on the form. What we asked them to do instead was to go through that job safety analysis conversation, job safety analysis mindset with the workers and say, hey, Tim, what were the steps involved with you planning this job today? And talk about each one of the steps individually and then move the conversation to okay, so what hazards did you encounter or identify as you went through the steps? And then ask the question okay, with some of these hazards, what's the worst that could happen if you don't protect yourself properly against those? And then we would start talking about the mitigative measures. 

18:47

And there was an added bonus. 

18:49

There is that we would train leaders that when we're talking about mitigative measures and they were primarily PPE and procedures kind of had that as a self-triggers, as kind of added awareness to the leaders, because we know that those are at the bottom of the hierarchy of controls and if that's what the last line of defense is for those guys, we should zero in on those and make sure that the PPE is serviceable, make sure the guys know how to use it. 

19:17

If it's processes and procedures that are keeping the guys safe, you know, go into your comment about compliance let's make sure that those guys understand the processes, make sure that they understand why they were developed the way they were to keep them safe and, more importantly, make sure that they agree that they're going to follow those procedures. So that's kind of one of the things that we did to just shift the systems a little bit. It was an existing program. We just shifted the way that they were actually tactically carried out a little bit to transform that more into a conversation and less into let's review the document and also think about what's important with that job safety analysis mindset and how can we use it to help keep us safe. So that was one of the things that we did for leaders and for our programs to help support the development of that job safety analysis mindset from a skill into a habit. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

20:14

Skill to habit. Okay, there's a bunch of stuff you said there, so I'm going to just kind of summarize, not just the whole thing, but, right, just this little part here. So, the support of leadership is important. Support by the organization is important, which also means that you have to have a good launch or, in the very beginning, communications have to be established and the expectations for both leaders and the operators or employees need to be established as well, and all these steps that you talked about. Poor communication can actually lead to a disastrous implementation of something like this and to raise awareness, something like SafeShare to help you with that, establishing a committee maybe might be even something that you could do to show that support. 

20:57

But I'm looking at this now holistically and I'm thinking you've outlined a lot of what most companies do when it comes to managing safety overall companies do. When it comes to managing safety overall, you need management or leadership buy-in, you need employee ownership. You did a gap analysis in the very beginning to identify specific hazards that might help you deliver the message of a JSA mindset. You did some things in between. That goes back to Deming's life cycle or plan do Check Act. There are a lot of elements in here that were really helpful in terms of safety management. So just to not rephrase what you said, but also just to kind of go back to the support of leadership in the organization, the JSA mindset is extremely important. It does raise awareness. 

21:46

So now let me recap the entire thing, just basically of what you said. You gave individuals a tool or a skill that can be developed into a habit. So, you're transitioning or changing from compliance to habit, and again, I still would like to have you back as another guest on a podcast to have that conversation. That would be incredible. Provide a common language to discuss a JSA, either informal ad hoc JSAs or something that's formal. I know we have to certify those through the PPE standard and other standards that are out there from our compliance component. But it would be really cool to pick up a cellular device and, just like we do with Rate Your State, just kind of slide the bar over and say hey, hey, this will elevate my awareness on a moment's notice, and that will take, but maybe a second or two, but that's kind of cool. And then, of course, provide some framework to increase value of leaders and supervisors interactions. You want to demonstrate some of that. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

22:48

Sure. So, there are two examples that come to mind for me, Tim, and one of them is you know, frequently, once a year maybe we have to get a ladder out of our garage and clean the eaves At least I do in my house, right? So that's a task that you know we do, have been doing it for many years at the house, and complacency can kind of set in with that. So, once we started thinking about the JSA mindset, it occurred to me I should probably be using this when I'm cleaning my eaves. And you know, the part that you know we all kind of would really focus on is going up to the second story on that ladder. But do you consider that? 

23:32

You know where do you store the ladder? And I store my ladder in the rafters in my garage, right? So, there's a hazard there right away. But you know that if you don't use that JSA mindset, you might start to kind of unconsciously go get that ladder right. So, thinking about the steps involved with getting the ladder down from the rafters, that's where the job should begin, right? Great? 

23:51

example, not when you're putting the ladder up against the house to go up to. You know, because of course you can have some fall protection on. Got a roof anchor that I use when I'm working on the second story. That's all taken care of. But what about that part when you're in the garage getting your ladder down Right? That's where the, where the hazardous energy or potential hazards start to uh affect you. So that that's one example, and another one that came to mind recently was and you and I have talked about this Tim was when I had to go get gas for the first time during the covert crisis and that was a task that absolutely in the past would have been an unconscious, driven, activity for me I'd get in the garage. Get in the past would have been an unconscious driven activity for me I'd get in the garage, get in the car gas station back, I'd be pouring gas in the lawnmower without even thinking about going there or coming back. 

24:41

But during COVID with the you know that added biological hazard that was out there, I had to go through that JSA mindset, make sure that I had all the steps listed out, how I was going to negotiate the pump, how I was going to get back and I actually added another step to that because it was a very infrequent and for me, the very first time I had to do this. I actually talked it over with my wife, went through the steps with her, talked about the hazards that I might encounter, what might be the worst thing that could happen if you know, X, Y or Z happens, what I was going to do to protect myself, to make sure that I had coverage. So that conversation afterwards added a little bit of value to that process as well for me. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

25:24

That's incredible. Those are both great examples. Just not even before this podcast. Just going into the airport, I super situational awareness and JSA mindset. All I was doing was just constantly thinking my next steps and my next steps. And so many people out there when they get hurt or they make a mistake, it's just not about the next step. That's just in the moment now and I really appreciate what you said there. So those are two great examples. Now, specifically with COVID, but also the other. So, let's go ahead and wrap this up with some takeaways for our listeners. So, Pete, why don't you go ahead and just kind of give them a list of things they can do, mostly about the integration with SafeStart and how this can help them out, but give them some takeaways as we wrap this up. 

Pete Batrowny Guest

26:10

Sure, Tim. So you know, one of the things that came to mind as I was starting to think about this JSA mindset, set in the context of SafeStart, was that, you know, our first critical error reduction technique is to self-trigger, and normally when we self-trigger, we think about okay, was it a state that you know I need to be aware of, or habits that I need to work on? And now we've got another tool that we can use, so if there's a hazardous energy around and we self-trigger, we can start that JSA mindset. What steps are involved in what I'm about to do? What are the hazards involved with each step? How could it be, what's the worst thing that could happen and what do I need to do to keep myself safe as I negotiate this hazard?

26:53

That's one takeaway, kind of a different twist on our first critical error reduction technique of self-triggering. And then the other thing that I'd like the listeners to go away with is that, whatever skill it is, whatever habit it is that we're trying to develop, we really have to make sure that the systems at work or at home, for that matter, are set up to support those, and we also need to make sure that leadership have the right skills whether they're technical or soft skills to be able to support the development of those individual skills, individual habits, individual skills, individual habits it's kind of that bridge between the organization and the individuals is the leadership, and it's really important that they have the proper technical and soft skills to do that. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

27:40

So those are the two things I'd like, folks to take away. 

27:44

And you often can relate. You know that the two critical error reduction techniques that are talked about most are self-trigger and working on how this works perfectly for that. If we could just get people to work on those more, we, our listeners most of you are safe start users and you can, you can, help us out with that, with those two specific techniques and give them the JSA mindset. So, Pete, my goodness, thank you so much for sharing your time and your knowledge with us today. If you'd like more information on Peter, you can find it at safestart.com. Pete, why don't you go ahead and shout out your email for us? 

Pete Batrowny Guest

28:21

Sure, it's peterba at safestart.com, Tim. 

Tim Page-Bottorff Host

28:26

Thanks, thank you be sure to join us on our podcasts in the future. There are several new ones, bonus podcasts, and we would love to hear from you. If there's any specific information that you're looking for, please visit us at safestart.com. I'm Tim Page-Bottorff for SafeTalk with SafeStart. Thanks for listening. Until next time. Stay well, we’ll see you down the road.