Financial Transitions That Come With Marriage

In today's episode, Nikita speaks with Mary Cantor & Jacob Wingate, two of 3rd Decade's Alumni, on the financial transitions that come with marriage. Merging two adult's financial lives can be a significant challenge in a new marriage. Mary and Jacob share openly about their individual financial upbringings, how that impacted their relationship with money in adulthood, and ultimately what they've done to come together to form a healthy relationship around shared finances that honors their individual interests as well as their strengths.

Transcript

Nikita: 0:00

Hey, third decade community. I'm your host Nikita Wolf, and today I'm joined by two of our third decade alumni, Mary Cantor and Jacob Wingate for a rich discussion about financial transitions that come with marriage. I really applaud them for sharing openly with us in this episode about something that a lot of people don't want to talk about. It's common that married couples, especially those that get married later in their twenties, thirties, or even beyond, experienced difficulty with this shift. And it's my hope that after hearing what they have to say today, that you'll feel positively impacted by the conversation. With that being said, let's get into it. Thank you both for being with us today. To start us off, could you share a little bit about yourselves, maybe what you do for work or what the money narrative was like for you growing up in your household?

Mary: 0:57

So, my name is Mary Canter and I, I work for an ed tech company. Um, but I come from a higher ed background, which is kind of still what, you know, I still work with colleges and institutions of higher education through my work at the ed tech company. So I'm just really passionate about, you know, helping students and people find their career paths. And that's essentially what I do for work. And you know, as far as the, the money narrative growing up in my household, both of my parents worked in finance and banking. So I was definitely aware of, of money and finances. But I think, you know, the other side to that is, you know, a lot of things were kind of just, just handled, cause my parents had that, that expertise and, you know, they certainly talked about it with us, but, um, I think I took a lot of things for granted. So I've still had to, you know, reeducate myself and ensure that I have the knowledge that, that I need and that I can, I had to kind of like build some of that independence a little later I think. And, you know, no fault to my parents certainly. Um, but you know, they did a wonderful job, I think, you know, preparing me for, for some of these things. But I think that, um, that's kind of like the other side to the coin is, you know, when when they had that expertise, I just had to make sure that I was also equipped with the tools to, to manage money autonomously for myself. And that's kind of where, where third decade came in. And I know we'll get some more on that later. But, um, yeah, that's a little bit about me.

Nikita: 2:10

Awesome. Thanks for sharing. How about you Jacob?

Jacob: 2:13

Yeah, my name is Jacob, for work I'm in public service, so I work for the state of Arizona. I manage one of the budgets for one of the larger departments for the state. It's not what I started off in. I started off trying to do police work. That's what my dad did when I was growing up. And so that's where I, I got my, my start, but then I went back to school and studied public administration, got into the state government and then I actually just finished an MBA program as well, in part kind of spurred on by my excitement from their decade and learning more about about finance. Um, so I do deal with, I do deal with the numbers, deal with dollar amounts every day. And so that helped me get a lot more comfortable with it. But, really I wasn't that comfortable with, with it when we, I mean, even when we started the program, cuz money was not a thing that we talked about a lot when I was growing up, which makes it a lot harder, when you are going into, you know, transitioning into marriage and, and figuring that out. So I think for me it was more of a taboo topic or something that we didn't really talk about. My parents had things very separate. They had their own accounts, they covered individual bills, and so it was just a very different kind of arrangement than what we're building.

Nikita: 3:29

Interesting. So I mean, you guys had quite different upbringings and how has that kind of, I guess, manifested or presented itself in your guys' relationship and helped you to identify areas where maybe you meet somewhere in the middle?

Mary: 3:42

The thing that I'll, I'll start off by saying is that third decade kind of came in right at the right time because we started the program. Um, I can't remember exactly when the program started, essentially right when we got married. So I think that, um, that really facilitated those conversations and I think that's why, you know, coming from such different perspectives, it allowed us to, to have those conversations in a way that wasn't, you know, adversarial or like this is the right way. Um, because a lot of the third decade teaches is that, you know, that there are many different approaches to managing money. There's not always a right or wrong way. So it really just opened up that conversation for us to say, Hey, here's kind of like where I'm coming from, here are my values around it. And then we could kind of build a plan from there. So I would say my take is that it's helped us to have kind of a more harmonious financial relationship because we started off, you know, having conversations very early in our marriage about money and what was important to us and how we managed it. So

Nikita: 4:36

For our listeners, could you give context to the timeframe in which you went through a program versus when you got married?

Jacob: 4:41

Yeah, we'd been together in a long-term relationship for, for a few years actually before we started the program and got married. We got married in August, 2020. We went through the program I think throughout the summer of 2020. And so that was, I think the first time it was virtual. Yeah, a lot of, a lot of change. A lot of change at the same time, but kind of building on what Mary had just shared, we hadn't really talked a lot about money before, even though we were in that long-term relationship. And I think some of that was about our different relationship with money and, and what we knew. And it's, it is a very vulnerable, it can be a very vulnerable, scary thing to talk about. Um, even with your partner it can be very hard. Um, so yeah, I think that third decade really helped us facilitate that conversation. one of the things that really stood out to me from our experience in the program, is when we looked at kind of a structured conversation about what our relationship with money was individually. And that helped us. I mean that helped me certainly think about that and frame that even for myself, but also gave me, you know, a way to communicate that to Mary and talk about this is what my experience has been like for better or worse. And that helped us kind of think about is that what we want to continue or not and how does that yeah. Build into our larger values and goals, you know, as, as a married couple.

Nikita: 6:10

So where did those conversations lead then? I'd love for you to kind of talk about how you came together and figured out how you wanted to go forward.

Mary: 6:19

Yeah, so we have, um, I think this is a good time to, to share a little bit of how that like practically<laugh> like what the result of those conversations was. And you know, Jacob described his parents had had separate accounts. And so what we did is, um, you know, we're both very independent people. We both have our own careers, we both have our own interests, but it was also really important to us that things were really transparent and that, you know, when we have goals, like we're both working towards them and it's not like, well this is my money and this is yours. Like, we did wanna have some shared. So we have kind of a hybrid approach where we do each have our own individual accounts, but we have some shared savings accounts and we have, you know, a credit card that we're both on. So when we both, we can both be using that without having to check with someone or, and I think that that does a couple things. One, it helps us, as I said, as independent. People feel like this is my money and I can spend it and I can make these decisions, you know, as a fully formed grown adult. Um, which feels really good. Um, but then, you know, if we're like out to eat, it's not like, oh, are you paying? Like that would also feel very strange. So, you know, it, it kind of removes that kind of either or thing where, you know, we have our own, um, we even have our own like section in our budget for fun money. So we have kind of like an amount that we set aside for that we can just spend without checking and it's an amount that we've agreed on. So we, the hybrid approach I think is really supportive for us cuz it also is, you know, in addition to being, being able to spend independently when we hit milestones, it very much feels like something we worked on together. Like when we hit our, our emergency fund goal after third decade, like we went out and got dinner, like we celebrated, it was like, look what we did. And it didn't feel like something that either of us had contributed to more than the other. It very much felt like this is a thing we were working towards together as a team. Um, so that's also I think really, really fun and exciting as well. What would you add?

Jacob: 8:05

I would say that conversation, I love to do research and learn things and so I, I researched what some of those different structures might be, what do other people do? And and there wasn't one model that really fit what what felt right to us, but being able to, again, to have that and to, to talk about some of those things. And we did have to experiment a little bit. We tried out some different, you know, if we were separate in this area, we're shared in this area and I think we're in a very good spot now. But it did take a little bit of time and, and work and experimentation as well. Um, but like Mary said, I think having it, some aspects of it combined, so we have a shared checking account. We have a shared savings and money market account and then we also have like a shared rewards credit card so that we can build up travel rewards. That's something that we identified was important to us, but also having some things a little bit more separate that we each also have our own checking account, our own credit cards. And we do have that transparency. We use a budgeting tool called You Need a Budget, which I personally love and I spend a lot of time working on it. Um,<laugh>. But that was something, I mean, that also gives us that transparency and that accountability to one another. And I, I actually think that, that having that transparency and accountability kind of helped us stay true to our goals and stay true to our values because you know, the other person is gonna know and you don't want to, you know, you want to build up toward what you guys had talked about before. So having that kind of combined our powers of, you know, our earning potential and, and what we can achieve more than, than one of us on our own, either of us on our own. Um, but also having the, the flexibility of the fund money that Marion talked about so we each set aside, we have a little pot of money for ourselves that it's just we can do whatever we want with. And so having a little bit of both worlds

Nikita: 10:02

Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, that's such an important thing to have cuz then it like actually, you know, it's the reward that makes it all kind of feel worth it. Yes. If it's all yes business and no play. Well I hate to say it like we all have to like have some sort of reward. We're like children deep down. Yeah. That a hundred percent in order to stick with it, you know, make it fun.

Mary: 10:20

Yeah. And we use that fun money very differently too. So it also kind of removes that like, like we, we, we talked about having different, you know, preferences and different money values. It kind of removes that conversation of like expecting the other person to adhere to yours. Like, I will spend mine probably on like clothing or get a massage and Jacob like loves pens and you know, notebooks and things like that. So Jacob will buy those kinds of things or desk accessories. And so we spend our it very differently, but like it removes any element of judgment of how money should be spent. It's just like, hey, that's for you. You go have fun. And um, we support each other in that and that's also flexible. You know, we had a conversation, we're like, we think we wanna up the fund money, so we, we upped our fund money budget and that was fun to feel like we could do that

Nikita: 11:00

Too. That's great. I appreciate you guys sharing the account structure too. Cause I think sometimes people get confused on the logistics of how you would do something like this. And I also like that you touched on the fact that you had a little bit of a trial period where you were trying out different things at the beginning of this to figure out what did work for you. I relate to that too. We've tried, my husband and I have tried a couple of different methods of managing and we've landed somewhere pretty similarly to where you're at as well. That hybrid approach seems to feel right for us too.

Mary: 11:27

Yeah. And it was helpful to learn that like, like I think I had like before third decade again, I had heard people either say like, you have to combine everything or like keep everything separate. And I was like, well I don't, I don't know which one<laugh>. I, both of them felt too extreme. So I think it, the flexibility is huge.

Nikita: 11:44

Yeah. Some people have really, really strong Yes. Opinions on it and, I just don't think it's a one size fits all answer. For some people it might make sense, like if, for instance, instance, you know, a single income household, it might make sense to have all in one spot if one person is, is caregiving full-time at home. Um mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it just is way too nuanced to give one prescription to everybody. Yep.

Mary: 12:05

Absolutely.

Jacob: 12:06

Absolutely. No right way to do it. No one right way, I guess. Lots of right ways,<laugh>.

Mary: 12:10

Yeah.

Nikita: 12:11

Yeah. So did you do anything prior to marriage to prepare you for these changes?

Mary: 12:16

So I think for us we didn't, we didn't really have those conversations very intentionally. I think, you know, before we got married, it, you know, it came up sometimes or you know, we would kind of, I think we informally decided, you know, for if we were paying for something that we, you know, alternate, but it wasn't very formalized. Um, but again, I think that's just because we didn't have a model and I think if we could go back that we probably would have started to talk about it sooner because it, even without, you know, the support of something like their decade, it doesn't hurt to have the conversations or just ask it as a question as you get to know one another. You know, we had been dating for I think over four years before we had, before we got married. So there was certainly space within that that we could have, could have been having some of those conversations. So I think just to treat it as any kind of, any kind of conversation or decision you would have around values as you're getting to know someone who you think you might get married to is just to talk about it and to not make it a big scary thing just to kind of learn where they're coming from and see where your values do and don't align. So that would be my

Nikita: 13:14

Advice, especially in regards to like financial strain and stresses and, financial infidelity. Mm-hmm. Can be such, it's like the leading cause of, of divorce and stuff. So you'd think that in our culture we'd be prioritizing these conversations early on, but it really is scary and you guys are mm-hmm. Far from alone, but it does, you know, demonstrate something that you were together for four years before you got married and it took that long. It's such a vulnerable topic still to, to talk about that, so. Wow. Yeah.

Jacob: 13:43

I I think especially for me, I, I have a lot of student loan debt and that feels like a scary thing because I'm bringing this person into my life, this person that I care about so deeply and I, and it's this extra baggage that I'm bringing that is, you know, gonna be a shared burden now. And on the one hand that is a relief, it's this very powerful connection to know that she'd be willing to do that and is open to that and, and wants to help me with that. And at the same time, like broaching that topic and talking about, you know, where, where I'm really at and, and how far I have to go. I'm paying some of those things off, especially knowing that she doesn't have that, didn't have that coming into the marriage. Um, that can be, that can be challenging, but it's so much better in our experience has been so much better just to get it out there and, and we talk about it regularly still. Um, so we have money dates and we'll go through things. Um, I had mentioned I really enjoy budgeting and I like looking for the credit card rewards. Um, and those are things that, that I've just started to do more and more as I, I learn more and like to do it. But it gives me an opportunity then to, to communicate that back.

Nikita: 14:58

I'm glad to have a fellow budgeting nerd on the podcast here

Jacob: 15:01

With me. Yes. I love it.<laugh>. I think that is one thing we did do before we, before we got married, is we started, almost incidentally it wasn't really an intentional choice, but we, we set some goals about individually, we wanna start doing more intentional budgeting. We wanna, we want to be better at money. I think that was kind of how we framed it. And so we started to, to flex those, I guess like financial hygiene muscles of, of trying to get used to thinking about our money and being more intentional about it. But it wasn't something that we set out to say, this is, we're building this thing together. It was more like, well, we want to just learn more about it.

Mary: 15:41

And I wanna, I wanna circle back to what Jacob said about student loan debt because I imagine like so many people have it and I think that it's, what's interesting is so many people have it, we're millennials, so like we<laugh>, like that's a very common thing, but it can still feel like embarrassing or it can feel like, oh, I like I shouldn't have this, or I should be farther along. But I think their decade also helped us to not only normalize that, but not be afraid of it. Like, it is it, it's, it can be neutral. It doesn't have to be this negative thing that's weighing us down. It's just a factor in our financial situation. Just like our retirement plans, just like our salaries. Like those are just contributing factors for us to, to navigate and work with. And it doesn't have to be perceived as, you know, a negative because, you know, student loan debt,<laugh> is what led to Jacobs getting a degree and like being pro like progressing into his career where he is. So it's, yeah, it's doesn't have to be a negative thing. And in fact it can be evidence of, you know, what enabled him to get where he is in his career now. So I think like the advice that I would want people to, to take away is that, um, not to minimize your feelings around student loan debt, but to know that it doesn't have to be a negative or something you're embarrassed about or feel shame around. Um, because so many people, it's so normal now, so it doesn't have to hinder you from getting started on a financial plan.

Nikita: 17:01

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. Were you gonna say something else? Shake

Jacob: 17:05

Up? I can keep, I can just keep talking. Nikita, I can talk about this all day.<laugh>. Um, one of the things that we, that we talked about a little bit before and, and what Mary just shared, I think is a great example of how you can really draw strength from these discussions and, and build and shape your own mindset based on, you know, that feedback that you're getting from your partner. Um, coming into it, like I said, I, I had a, a different relationship with money and it was very scarcity mindset oriented. Um, I was always worried about running out, I was always worried about running outta money and partly there's some degree if that was the reality, I I wasn't making very much money and, and then things got tight at different points, but that perpetuated throughout, you know, even when that wasn't really a concern, that was still this lingering knowing issue for me. And so being able to talk about this and, and talk about the student loan debt or you know, where I'm at with things and, and hearing Mary's support and feedback on that helped me kind of rehabilitate my relationship with personal finance.

Nikita: 18:17

Yeah, I was gonna say, it almost sounds like it could be a healing experience to Yes. Take what was such a taboo subject and you know, something that's a baggage really for a lot of us and, and speak to it and work through it with somebody who we love and like come out of the other side feeling more confident about it. I'm sure that's, that's healing.

Jacob: 18:37

It's been so great and now I can't stop talking about it.

Mary: 18:41

<laugh> I went, I went too far<laugh> too much support<laugh>.

Nikita: 18:48

So is there anything that you wish you would've done differently early on?

Jacob: 18:53

That's a hard question because what we did led to where we are and I feel very good about where we are. Um, and so I, I think you almost, in some cases you almost have to go through some of those challenges to learn about yourself and about your partner, what works, what doesn't work for you. And there's sometimes there's just not always a shortcut. But I, I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be the financial literacy and not turning away from learning about it because it can be scary. I remember early on in the third decade program we talked about investing in, in the power of compound interest and it was like, oh no. Like we were in our early thirties and it's like, is this, are we too late? Is this gonna be a problem? Like, are we gonna not, is do we miss the boat on this? And no. But it is important to start as soon as you can start now, even if it's just a little bit. Um, that would be the only thing that I would say if I could do anything, maybe learn more about it and start investing earlier.

Nikita: 20:04

It's a common

Mary: 20:05

Yeah. And I'd say the same thing. Yeah, you probably hear it all the time, right?<laugh>?

Nikita: 20:09

Yeah, we, we do. And we have a lot of people in there like really coming in under the wire like 34, 35 years old when they start our program and you know, yes, while you would've made more money if you had started it in your twenties, like it's a whole lot better than waiting until you're 45.

Jacob: 20:28

Yes.

Nikita: 20:29

So. Yep.

Jacob: 20:31

Yep.

Nikita: 20:31

For sure. What advice would you give to a friend navigating this?

Jacob: 20:36

Find a great partner, number one. Um, that definitely helps. It's

Mary: 20:40

Like life advice.<laugh>, you should do that regardless of your financial situation. Range<laugh>,

Nikita: 20:45

You should. But if you have have a, a partner who's bringing some really messy financial behaviors into a relationship, that's gonna be very, very hard.

Mary: 20:53

Yes.

Jacob: 20:54

Yes. Yeah, I would say don't sweep it under the rug. Don't ignore it. It's not gonna get better just from not talking about it. You need to talk about it. You need to, to make sure that you're on the same page because marriage is such a, a big commitment, a significant commitment, and it affects every aspect of your life and so does your financial situation. Um, it can make you stressed all the time or it can give you really great experiences and the only way to get to that is to have, agreement and alignment on your values and what you're trying to work toward. Otherwise you're just gonna have a lot of, potentially resentment or frustration. So I think finding that right, that right balance, but having the conversation is very, very important.

Mary: 21:38

Yeah. And I was gonna, I was gonna say as well that I think the values piece is really important. I think, you know, looking at your finances isn't about just like watching numbers get bigger on different<laugh> on different budget items or in different accounts. Um, it's also about like what is important to you. For example, we, we really love, you know, traveling and having experiences. So it's important to us that how we spend our money reflects that<laugh> and that, you know, if we see that money is going to things that we don't really value, um, like that is really what's informing those financial decisions. So some of it might feel like it's maybe more emotionally driven or that it's kind of subjective, but I think that it's important to bring those elements into your financial planning. It's not just about like at hitting X amount of dollars in different areas. It's like, well, does that align with how we wanna be living our lives? You know, we could just, you know, save, save, save and not have these experiences, but then are we gonna get to retirement and be like, what did we do with all of those decades before this? You know? So I think just really getting clear on, on, on what you value and making sure that, that that's reflected in your budget. That what you think is fun is there and that what you like, whether or not that's the same thing as your partner and making space for, for those things.

Nikita: 22:54

I love that you both prioritize so much, like allowing money to bring you joy, not money itself. Yeah. But of course the experiences or maybe sometimes the things that it can get you, I would love if you'd share maybe some of your most memorable like money joys, like experiences you've gotten that you just like, still are just filled up whenever you think about it.

Mary: 23:16

I have a great example of kind of like why the dollar amount doesn't really matter. Um, so for, for this was like, I don't even, it was like two years ago, I still remember it, but I, it was before I set up autopay on my credit cards and I missed a payment and I got like a late fee and I was like 30 bucks and I'm still so mad<laugh> about that$30 late fee. But we went to like, it, like again, I, like, I still remember, I remember how much it was, I remember what happened. I set up auto pay immediately after and I was like so bummed about that cuz it just like went, felt like it went to nothing. But we recently, um, went to Austria for our honeymoon again. We got married in August, 2020. Travel wasn't really an option. We did kind of a delayed honeymoon. Um, and we went to Austria and our budget for that trip was around$10,000. And it felt like nothing, right? Because we, I mean, and I, I realize that comes from a place of, of privilege. You know, we had the, the privilege to be able to, to spend that kind of money on a trip, but it was something we had worked towards that we made sure we were in a place to be able to afford it, allowed us to go there without having to worry about, you know, restaurants or experiences that we wanted to do. You know, we felt very free to have this great experience

Nikita: 24:20

And that the money was already set aside. Yes,

Mary: 24:22

Yes. The money was already there that we knew that we could be working towards other goals while still having this amazing experience. So like the$30 versus the the 10 K, it totally wasn't about the amount, it was about, you know, the experience and what it's adding to our life. Um, that to me doesn't really have a price point.

Nikita: 24:40

I can totally relate to that. I, we do the same thing where we have a vacation fund that we contribute a dollar amount to every month mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And it legitimately almost makes our vacations just feel free. Yes. Because we're paying small bits for it all throughout the year. Like that money is meant to be spent on that thing. So, um, I I would not want to do a vacation any other way personally. Mm-hmm.

Jacob: 25:01

<affirmative>, I think that trip is, while this, that aha trip, it was a larger dollar amount. That was a probably the biggest thing that we have spent together. But it was made possible because that was our choice. That's what we, we intentionally said that's how we want to do this. We had a very small wedding in large part because it was 2020 and there just weren't a lot of other options. But we did talk about maybe we want to have like a bigger celebration and we want to have this more elaborate kind of wedding part two. But we decided that this other experience was more important and was something that we would get a lot out of. And that's part of what made it feel okay to put so much money into that kind of trip. And I think that really also changed our, our, our perspectives on what you just said, Nikita. Like setting aside money and then feeling free to use it. Cuz going back to what I said about the scarcity mindset, that was always something I was scared of. It's like, is it okay to spend this money? What if I'm gonna need it? But we hit our emergency savings fund, we, we set that aside. We have, what I would call sinking funds. I don't know if that's something mm-hmm.<affirmative> a lot of people talk about. But things where we know we're gonna have costs coming up, but we know, other things that, that are gonna come up infrequently. But we need to have cost cover, like emergency, pet medical care. We've set aside money for that. And so we know that we've got all those things covered. That was such, it's such a huge relief to, to me. And that's what allows us to feel like we can do those, those kinds of trips. We just went to San Francisco last weekend just for fun because we could,

Nikita: 26:53

You guys are getting to live like such a rich life because you're prioritizing like how to use your money in a way that's important to you. Yes,

Jacob: 26:59

Yes, it is. Making it so much better. Yes.

Nikita: 27:03

So could you guys, touch on what a money date looks like for you in your household?

Mary: 27:08

Yeah, I'll let Jacob you take this one away.

Jacob: 27:10

You the, yes. Yeah. So, one thing we didn't really bring up as much as about like playing to our individual strengths. And so we have different strengths, we've acknowledged that and, and that allows us to kind of focus each of us to focus on different kinds of areas. So a recent example, we're looking to establish a new relationship with a new accountant, to have, you know, to have a CPA that we can go to. And so I, I asked Mary if she would do some of that research and look into the different options and, and see what was available. And she jumped right in and came up with some great options. Um, while I, with what I enjoy, went back and looked at, how o ur retirement portfolios invested, what o ur balances across different asset classes or, even within the different equities, like how do we, is it where we want it to be and what are our contributions to that? So we were looking at very different things, but we're doing it together. We're sharing that together, we're talking about it and we're building toward, toward that kind of goal. So maybe that's, that's something we don't do quite as off, that's not a normal money date. I would say a much more normal money date would be, looking at our budget. What did we spend in the last month or the last couple of weeks? Um, what did we plan on? And then with the money that we have and the money we have coming in, where do we want to allocate that? And so we, we have different categories and we will set that money aside and say, this is what we're trying to build toward. Um, once in a while we will also say, let's do a larger kind of check is, is this where we want to be going? Um, how much do we want to prioritize our, our retirement investments or just savings in general? Um, versus having those experiences like we talked about, how do we strike that right balance? And maybe we do need to do kind of a recalibration and, and a course correction, but we're doing it and that's, and that's how we make sure that we're staying on the right track. And so I think that's what I would say is our money dates are the most, is is about talking about that.

Mary: 29:21

Yeah. And we have a, an Asana board that I set up and, and again, playing to our strengths, like I love to like plan it out. Like who's gonna do what. So I have an Asana board. Um, if you use like Trello or any kind of like task management, even like a paper list, um, like that's what I like to do. And like, full disclosure, you know, third decade certainly gave me so much, much more knowledge than I had before. But like some of the, the more complex things with, you know, investing and stuff, like, it just doesn't click for me as easily as it does for Jacob, but I still wanna know what's going on. You know, I wanna make sure that I'm staying current and that I'm, I'm still learning. I'm not just saying, oh, well I'm not good at that. I should, I don't need to know that. Like, I still like to know what's going on. Yeah. Um, but so, so he does a lot of that and then just kind of, you know, loops me in or answers questions as we go. And then I have like this Asana boardroom tracking, you know, different tasks that we've outlined we wanna do at some point so that we know, you know, okay, we've got a plan for our taxes here or we want to, um, you know, set aside this time like a recurring task for us to, what's it called in, in Winab when you, reconcile. Reconcile, yes. There you go. When you reconcile. Yeah, so just, I'm kind of like keeping things organized, keeping us on track and, you know, we're each doing our own separate tasks, but you know, a money date might look like sitting down, looking at the Asana board, seeing what tasks we have and you know, if we don't finish something at least like make progress on it or is that still something we need to do? Um, so just kind of keeping everything, everything organized, knowing what goals we have, you know, now that we've kind of hit some of the initial milestones like, okay, what's next and what do we wanna be thinking about? Um, what do we have to do? Um, what are maybe things we'd like to do? And just kind of going from there

Jacob: 30:54

And celebrating what we have done. Yeah. It's important to think about those things and, and how far that we've come. I think that hearing you myself share about this hearing what Mary's sharing, I want people to understand that, that they can do this too. that this is very possible that we didn't know any of these things five years ago.

Nikita: 31:18

And this isn't you guys, you know, a week in this is you guys a few years then,

Jacob: 31:22

Right? We've been building toward it. Yes, exactly. We've been, we've been building toward this time and, and like I said, finding what works or what doesn't work and, and just learning about it. But it is, it's possible for everyone to do this or do this in a way that works for them and, and find what works. Um, but you don't have to be an expert in a lot of things. I just happen to be very interested in it. But I, again, I didn't know this a few years ago. Um, so it, it does take some time, but you, you can get there.

Nikita: 31:57

You're usually like a power couple. I just admire you so much,<laugh>. I really, really am grateful that you're, you know, sharing so openly with our audience. So thanks.

Mary: 32:06

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, again, like, just to keep the kudos to third decade coming, like, I think like that's, that's because third decade like made it so that this is, it's not a taboo topic for anymore. Like that we've our like, like I just told everyone how much we spend on vacation. Like that doesn't have to be a thing. Like spend that much, spend more, spend less. It's up to you. You know, like it's, um, I think that's part of it is it just demystified it and it made, it's like this is our choice and this is what we're doing. And it doesn't have to be a taboo thing. You don't have to keep those things secret. You can, you can talk about those things and share about them and the more people people start to do that, then the less of a stigma there will be, you know, around some of these topics. And hopefully it'll get easier for people.

Nikita: 32:45

Yeah. Something that I notice is, I think a lot of people, you know, around our age or generation, we want to be having these open conversations, but we're like scared to until somebody else breaks the ice and mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. I like that. You know, both now from the third decade admin side as well as having been on the receiving end of it, it kind of did that for me. And for we get to do that for a lot of people and past that point, it's like those conversations flow, we want to like understand, like I'll ask my coworkers now, like, what do your guys' grocery budgets look like? I feel like mine is like crazy high, but like, I have no idea. Cuz it's so different from person to person. And so just to like have these conversations openly rather than totally like holding your breath, like feeling awkward about it. Like totally knowledge is power. I don't know,

Jacob: 33:31

I ask a lot of my coworkers about their retirement situations.

Mary: 33:35

Jump right into it. Yeah. I love it. It's with anyone<laugh>,

Nikita: 33:40

You're like, what's your savings rate?

Mary: 33:42

Yeah, yeah.

Jacob: 33:43

It's not always the right people don't always love that, but, but surprisingly more people do than you would expect. And so exactly what you said, people, I think people want to talk about it more than sometimes. We, we allow ourselves to believe when we are just sitting there by ourselves in our own heads. Yeah.

Nikita: 34:04

How have you guys made like the act of saving for retirement feel? I don't know if fun is the right word. Yeah. But like beneficial, I don't know. Rewarding<laugh>.

Jacob: 34:13

Absolutely. Um, we set those goals and then we celebrate when we hit'em. And so it is, I I found it. Yes. Very rewarding. A lot of gratification in, in seeing those numbers kind of accumulate. And that again is kind of the power I see in budgeting and, and seeing making those intentional and, and specific choices about where your money's gonna go and where a dollar should be allocated. Like we have a set pot of money for our emergency savings when that's, that's where that lives. We know that's where that money is. It's not all just jumbled up together. We know specifically where those are. And by calling those things out and being able to, to visualize it, you know, through even a spreadsheet or through or through like a budgeting software, I think it helps us feel like, yes, we can see those dollars, we can see our progress toward our goals, and then we can see when we've hit those and it, it, it's, I don't know, it's a different kind of gratification and experience than if we just bought something because we know we're gonna have, we're setting ourselves up for a success in the future as well.

Nikita: 35:29

Yeah. And that way it also doesn't just feel like you're winging it. Like you can actually see that, that forward movement. Yes. Um, whereas it's why I'm, I'm such a big advocate of budgeting and of actually having record keeping and like I like to track our net worth. Um, yeah. Lately, now that I know a recession's coming up, I'm doing that only a few times a year rather than every month because sometimes I'm seeing retirement balances declined. Yeah. But mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, I just think it's so important to get to see it so you actually can celebrate it rather than just not really knowing exactly where you stand.

Jacob: 36:04

It is taken the stress out of things. I think it can be hard to set up a budget. It can be hard sometimes to, to find the right rhythm and find, find what, what you want it to look like. but it ultimately takes the stress out of, out of the money because you know you have what you need to cover, what you need to cover, and it allows you to then use other money for what you want it to go toward and reach those goals.

Mary: 36:31

Yeah. And for me at least, like, it's almost like the same dopamine hit you get when you like buy something cool. Like, I, like, I feel like we get that, like when we like see the, see it going in, it's like, yes, I just put like a thousand dollars or whatever it is in our retirement. It's like, yes. It's like I bought my future self something or like I can like see, you know, like what my life will be like when I retire. Like, it's almost like you're, you're like getting, giving that to your future self. So I think it's, yeah, it's like a different type of spending reward even though it's like just going to your, your future self. So I always think it's, I think it's fun. I think it's exciting, especially now that we know what

Nikita: 37:05

Return the dollar sale, right?

Mary: 37:06

Yes. Yes. Yeah. So it's, um, I think it can be just as exciting as being able to spend from, spend money, you know?

Jacob: 37:12

I did not think that before we got married. That was another thing that Mary,

Mary: 37:17

I'm like the queen of the delayed gratification. I'm like, I can wait so long for reward. So I know I'm not, that's kind of like counter-cultural, but like I'm, if I can like know that like later on I'll be good like that. Um, that's, I

Nikita: 37:28

Relate to

Mary: 37:29

That. Yeah. Yes. So like investing and like savings, like, I'm like, yes, this is, um, that's always very exciting for me, but I realize that doesn't always come naturally to everyone. If it doesn't come naturally to you, I invite you to like feel like you've just spent like, you know, this put a thousand dollars in your savings account. Like Yes. Like I just bought something. It's just for me later on. Yes.<laugh>.

Jacob: 37:50

Try it out. It's more fun than it's easy. Yep,

Nikita: 37:52

Yep. And later on you is gonna be so grateful for it. Yes,

Mary: 37:56

Yes, yes.

Nikita: 37:57

Could you describe a little for our audience, how you structure your budget for those that are curious?

Jacob: 38:03

Absolutely. we broadly we have different categories for like, these are the things that we need to, we, these are non-discretionary. These are our, our our must funds. These are the things we must be paying for, especially the ones that recur regularly or rent our grocery bill. And that's where the money goes first. We make sure that those things are covered. the next thing is, is about kind of paying our future selves. so what are our future savings goals? What do we need to, to support ourselves in the future? So our retirement, um, our, our emergency savings before we had that, fully funded other savings and investments. and then we get down into, some of the, the categories where we know there's gonna be a bill eventually. but, but it's not every month. It's not every week. so we had talked about, you know, the, the pet emergency medical care or even our, our car insurance, which we pay every six months or a car registration. So we start just setting aside a little bit every month. Instead of having that one big hit every six months or every year, we just put aside a load a bit every month. And that really helps, helps take the sting out of it. and then the last thing is that really, truly discretionary. Um, so the fun money that we had talked about eating out or entertainment. Entertainment, yeah. Going to see shows or we actually, this feels like a very indulgent thing, but we decided to hire cleaners I guess probably a year ago.

Nikita: 39:37

We've talked about it in my household.

Jacob: 39:39

Yes. Yeah. and that's, I mean, it's sort of, it's a discretionary thing, but it's something that we decided was very worth it to us and it's been great. but it was only through the power of of budgeting that we were able to do that. Yeah. Um, for me, another big thing that changed when I started budgeting was identifying the money that you have, budgeting the money that you have with you right now and allocating across those different categories, not budgeting what you think you're gonna have necessarily in the future. And so I take the money that we have, like in our accounts right now, and I will, you know, spread that across those different categories that we just talked about. So rent, grocery bills, the electric bill, or the fun money or whatever it might be. And not worry as much about what's coming in the future.

Nikita: 40:29

Do you adjust your budget monthly, like on a variable income of some sort?

Jacob: 40:33

We don't set hard targets that we necessarily need to hold ourselves to all the time. We, that's why it's important to do kind of a look back and say, is this category trending in the direction that we want it to? Are we spending too much on, on eating out? And we do that proactively prospectively by saying, this is what we wanna spend on this category this month, but if we run a little bit over, I can move money between the different categories, which seemed counterintuitive before it seemed like we should be holding ourselves to, it's only this amount, it's the only amount that we can spend. But I think it was really freeing to say, no, let's just, we have money over here. We're just gonna reprioritize how we're gonna use this and do it even short term. We're gonna do it just this month and then next month we're gonna get back on track and go back to where we wanted.

Nikita: 41:28

That was something I really struggled in within the rigidity of my own mind is when I had a, yes, first started budgeting, oh God, I guess we're going up on like five years ago. I started like, yeah, tracking our expenses fully. I would get so much anxiety if we were like coming up against like our grocery budget or something and I'd feel like I'm like scraping together ingredients from my pantry. Like, and realizing that ultimately it doesn't necessarily matter that you're perfectly within the boundaries of each individual category. Yeah. Because each month some of them are gonna be under, some of them are gonna be over. And ultimately what you're hoping for is that you're just, that you're within your overall income versus expenses. Um, yes. And just allowing some of that, that flexibility. And I personally allow myself a buffer account where anytime we're under budget, yes. we shuffle it into, it's kind of like a discretionary account, but it's also the account that I will pull from if we're over budget. So it's good to have a small amount of money for, I mean, sometimes I'm gonna have to put on tires on my car that I really didn't expect if one of'em blows or something. And like, you know, just to be able to, um, allow some of that flexibility.

Jacob: 42:42

We have a category called stuff we forgot to budget for<laugh>. We love that. So it's not huge, but it's just if something comes up that we didn't have a category for, we we just missed when we were thinking about it in the past. That covers that.

Nikita: 42:55

And then Yna shows you a yearly trend on each category, doesn't it?

Jacob: 42:59

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Nikita: 43:00

<affirmative>, that's awesome. Mm-hmm.

Jacob: 43:01

<affirmative>. So it's, it's been very helpful for those kind of analytics if you want to get into that. It's not necessary, for everybody. You can still be successful budgeting with other tools or other categories, but, um, I personally love that. I think it also gives us the opportunity to set some little smaller dollars aside. And so one of the things I, I created a new like wishlist category, um, for a new cell phone. I don't need it right now. My old cell phone is fine, but it's something i, I enjoy. And so when we cover all of our, our costs, when we've allocated the money that's coming in and we know that we've covered what we need to and if we have$20 left over, we have$50 left over, I will just drop it into that, that category and just let it build up over time instead of trying to scrape that together and, and cover something or, or having to pull from other things to make that happen.

Nikita: 44:02

Totally. It's another good way to, again, make it feel rewarding.

Jacob: 44:05

Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yes. Yep. For

Nikita: 44:07

Sure. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, thank you both so much for being on with us today and really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like we spanned a lot. Yes. And I think that our listeners will get a lot from hearing such an open, honest, and vulnerable conversation. So we appreciate it. Awesome.

Jacob: 44:22

Thanks Nikita. Pleasure. Yeah. Really appreciate it.