Ep. 34 Coercive Control

Domestic violence isn't always physical.  Controlling behaviour, gaslighting and financial restriction are often more damaging than an assault.
Ryno and and two survivors discuss the sometimes small issues that become very very big issues.

 #nohumbleopinions #straighttalk #unpopularopinion  #unpopularopinions #podcast #podcastlife #podcastrecommendations #podcastseries #politicallyincorrect #politicalcorrectness

Transcript

0 (2s):
Hey there, Ryno here from the podcast. No humble opinions where we talk about things that other people don't like talking about today. We are sponsored by cactus Jackson, Ray. So big shout out to them. Go grab yourself a delicious taco, but we are having a chat about the very not funny issue of financial abuse.

1 (20s):
<inaudible>

0 (41s):
Not bad. This is the first podcast. You've got no idea. What's gonna,

2 (46s):
We're excited. I know what's going to happen, but we're excited.

0 (49s):
I love, I always thank people for trusting me into these. Cause you guys have, you done know what is going to go on. And I really liked that and we've got Abby here too. Abby's how old are they? Six months. Feel free to Chuck a tent through the middle of it. Anytime you like, just to spice things up a little bit. If you'd like, okay guys, like, why are you here? Why am I talking to you? We've we've got, we did a domestic violence chat a while ago. It wasn't a fun chat, but it is what it is. We also did a family law court chat as well, which wasn't fun, but that's what we do hear each other about things that are difficult, financial abuse, or turn them out today. So while I've got you guys any,

2 (1m 34s):
So I actually listened to both of those podcasts and I'm a survivor of domestic abuse myself. Four years ago, I left my ex-husband and I was actually here to support Heather for the day while she had a chat about her experiences. But I had a bit of an epiphany this morning and I realized that I actually did suffer a lot more financial abuse than I first realized. So my healing is a work in progress and had a bit of a flashback this morning where I realized that there were things that were happening though. I didn't actually realize were financial abuse. So I thought it was, you know, a bit odd, not quite right.

2 (2m 17s):
You know, when you're married to someone, you, you trust them and you trust that they're doing the right thing. And it's only when you kind of come out the other side and look back that you can realize that no, actually that's not normal behavior. So yeah, I'm very vocal in the space of domestic violence. And I like to advocate for other women that are possibly not as far ahead at the, the healing journey as I am. So that's why I'm here. I am here because Lou asked me to be, to be perfectly honest, but we hooked up in a group on Facebook and I shared openly on a post about where I was coming from.

2 (2m 58s):
And she said, Hey, check out my group.

3 (3m 1s):
So I am two years out of an abusive marriage and financial abuse was a big part of it, but like Lou, I didn't really realize, Hey, that financial abuse was a thing and B that I was in the middle of it.

0 (3m 16s):
Yeah, let's, I'll, I'll give what I think is financial abuse and please you too, you know, giving up anytime and tell me I'm doing it wrong. But basically domestic violence is, is easily looked upon as heating and patching and throwing and screaming and you know, verbal analysis stuff. But financial abuse is basically taking away another person's access to money. So they can't function without the other person. If you like, they have to ask permission to have money or there's a joint account that they don't get access to or whatever. And it it's a power play. It's a, it's a way of one side of the relationship having the power over another side of the relationship, surely by stopping their finances, would that be pretty accurate?

0 (4m 0s):
Or

3 (4m 1s):
I would say that's probably the most common thought about financial abuse for me. I always had access to money. I could go out and buy gas. I could buy groceries, I could buy clothes. If I wanted to, for me, the financial abuse was the manipulation and the control around the use of the money. So it got to a point where I had to, I actually chose to start taking a picture of the receipts when I did grocery shopping and text it to my ex because he would say, well, what did you buy? And instead of running through it and he'd be like, well, how much did you spend?

3 (4m 44s):
I would just like, just get it over and done with in one fell swoop.

0 (4m 47s):
And so, and that was a constant thing. Was it that you always had to justify what you were spending? So you, you had, you were allowed to use the money, but you had to sit there and raise it, give evidence as to what you got and why you got it.

3 (4m 59s):
And I owned my own business in the States and all the money that I earned from that business. I kept for myself. He was not allowed to use it, have access to it. And I told him anything that I need, I will use that money for. And that, for that, that meant I didn't have to justify the use of my money to him.

0 (5m 24s):
Can I shoot that question? Was, was that the only form of domestic abuse that was in your relationship or was it a lot more than that?

3 (5m 32s):
No. Yeah. Just about all forms. If I'm being honest within our relationship, because I grew up in a home that was emotionally, psychologically and physically abusive, I learned to hit. And so in our relationship, when we had fights, I would get so worked up that I would actually punch him in the arm and was really controlled on my end. But there was one time I gave him a bruise. So it's not something that I'm really proud of. I don't really share it with people <inaudible> I know, I know, but I think it's important.

3 (6m 16s):
I think it's important to highlight that abuse. Doesn't just, isn't just wrapped up in a little package, domestic violence. Doesn't just encompass hitting, but Lou and I were talking about it this morning, emotional and psychological abuse is how an abusive relationship starts. And it can start with one sentence at the very beginning and the other person can be hooked and it can take a long time. And I, in my research that I did around abuse, I discovered that it starts with the emotional and psychological abuse and as the relationship grows, so does the abuse grow and you start getting pulled in?

3 (7m 2s):
I started getting pulled into situations that I didn't like, I didn't understand. I didn't want to do. And I became a person that I didn't recognize. And I didn't like, because I was purely trying to survive.

0 (7m 16s):
Yeah. I get everything you said. And I've heard the same thing many times before we did that. DV chat a while back and yeah, look, I've been Nigel a couple of times in my past too. And I deeply regret the things that happened with that, but yeah, they snowball things just seem to get worse and worse and they get out of control. And by the end of it, you ask it and you think I don't like me. I don't want to be in these, but yeah. And I think so. Thanks for sharing. That's what this is all about to try and Nope, not normalized, but just get people to understand issues and figure out how it all works. It's all very well and easier when something goes terribly wrong on the news to say, well, things escalate sometimes and we've all got to be part of fixing it and adjusting.

0 (7m 58s):
It's kind of in recognizing, right? So your form of your followup for financial abuse was primarily that you had to justify everything you spent, which is shitty

3 (8m 9s):
Or even, or even I remember one time we went into a store and there was a skirt that I really liked. And I was like, Oh, that's really cute. And he goes, wow, we'll we, you can buy it. It's okay. Like he was doing me a favor. Right. And as I look back, I realized there were multiple times over the course of our marriage that it was like that like in his mind's eye, we couldn't afford it. And he would always say, Oh, we can't afford this. We can't afford that. But then you'd be like, Oh, go ahead. And you can buy that skirt. Right.

0 (8m 45s):
Well, I found it in talking to some other people. There's a kind of, a lot of that. Like it's, you know, you and the money, it goes into an account and this is not your Sydney. You had your day, which is fine. But, and then it's almost like you feel great when someone says, Oh, you can. And why it's funny when people will let someone have power over them. It's very true. There's another form. Things like X's can be very interesting in the fact that they can send a message that is just to piss you off and just hit yard. But the problem is, if you do get pissed off of that and you do react to that, then you're giving them power. Like you're, you're, maybe they've got what they wanted out of it.

0 (9m 27s):
And so that's, that's a big deal to try and avoid that, whatever, like, what's your, what's your sort of experience from that sort of thing. So you come from where you use a more traditional domestic violence situation,

2 (9m 41s):
Instead of never physical mine was emotional, psychological, and verbal. And it actually started to escalate towards the end towards property damage, which a lot of people don't realize is a form of domestic violence. So there, there was furniture being thrown in a rage he'd pick up for instance, my four month old at the time, picked up his swing and threw it against the wall in anger while the kids were there. So things like that, that I could see were escalating. And I knew that I didn't necessarily know that I was in a domestic violence relationship, as much as that sounds ridiculous on the outside to people, I knew that there was something desperately wrong with the relationship, but I didn't think that it was domestic violence because he hadn't hit me.

2 (10m 34s):
And I know that a lot of people feel the same way, but I think that physical violence is domestic violence and they don't realize that those other things like Heather was saying the emotional, psychological and the property damage are always escalating towards physical violence.

0 (10m 50s):
What was really going down here? I'm, I'm walking these and we started this off, listen, this is not humble opinions. All I wanted to go on here, but we started fucking talking about financial abuse. But what does feels like to me a little bit is that we're talking about more non discussed versions of domestic abuse, like finances one, obviously, but I mean, there's your one there just being in fear or, you know, having a situation with furniture. I mean, gaslighting is an interesting one as well that, you know, convincing someone that they're alone, a teak or that they're wrong or that there's something wrong with them, as opposed to the reality of the situation is, is devastating. I mean, people end up, you know, doubting their own sanity a lot of the time.

0 (11m 31s):
Do you hear that

2 (11m 32s):
They get flooded? They care that has as well. Yeah.

0 (11m 35s):
Well tell me what can you tell me about that? I mean, I, I find that a very interesting, but that's an interesting form behavior. What is part of my interest in domestic violence is the fact that one party generally starts to believe the bullshit. Joe May not one party believes it that, and that's all believes that it's okay, that they can have that dress. Thank you so much for letting me have that or believes it. I won't have any money because you know, that's what I've seen. Plenty of situations, where are we can't afford that? We can't afford it. That's not true, but you can't afford that. He just he's doing his own thing or she is doing her own thing and what it might be. And at one side of their relationship believes that.

0 (12m 18s):
Is there any discussion about that? Can you guys tell me a bit your experiences and that sort of thing?

3 (12m 23s):
Yeah. I think for me, I was already suffering from mental illness. I suffered from mental illness back 20 years ago. So that was always an issue for me and suffering from anxiety and depression. He actually convinced me that I was mentally unwell. And that was the reason why I was forgetting things that happened. He used to often say to me, Oh, that's not what happened. You must be remembering it wrong. So I would call him up on certain things and Oh yeah.

0 (12m 57s):
It's yeah. John.

3 (13m 1s):
Yeah, no, that's okay. Yeah. So often I would be told, Oh no, you must be remembering it wrong. That didn't happen the way you remember it, or, Oh, you're an idiot. I wouldn't have done that. So you start to believe it because you're hearing it over and over every single day, multiple times a day, now you're remembering things wrong. No, you're an idiot. So you start questioning yourself and you think, okay, maybe he's right. Maybe I am. Like, I knew I was mentally unwell. As far as he was telling me, I knew that I was on antidepressants. So I'm thinking, well, you know, I must be mentally unstable. He must be telling the truth.

0 (13m 38s):
You must be right. Tell me about your experience with that.

3 (13m 45s):
I always pause here because there's just a lot that I don't remember. Gaslighting is so innocuous and that you can't see, you don't even realize that you're experiencing it. And so, and there would be things like he would ask me over the phone, Hey, can you, do you do XYZ? And then our conversation would continue. And almost immediately I would forget it. Right. And later on, he'd like, well, you didn't do this. And he and I didn't, but then there would be times where we would have a conversation and he would say, well, I didn't say that. I'm like, no, you, you did say that. And he was, no, I didn't say that you must have forgotten or you must have remembered it wrong.

3 (14m 27s):
So there was

0 (14m 28s):
The funny thing is that like how often you can remember something. I do forget a lot of sheets. Sorry, my apologies. But yeah. So just telling you don't wrong all the time.

3 (14m 37s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so there's this constant feeling like I'm, I'm not going to get it right. And I'm going to get in trouble because I got it wrong.

0 (14m 52s):
How long were you in a relationship for?

3 (14m 54s):
We were married for 17 years.

0 (14m 57s):
How much of that was living in fear

3 (15m 1s):
Every day for him to come home from work.

0 (15m 5s):
That's just awful. Isn't it? But it's, and it's a variety of things. Isn't it? It's not, there's not just one thing like you did, you had physical abuse in you.

3 (15m 16s):
The physical abuse was on my part. He never actually hit me. That's okay.

0 (15m 21s):
Okay. But there's a lot of things in it. So I mean, what the fear is the killer. I mean, like, if you, if you don't want, if you're with somebody in a relationship with somebody, you simply do not want them to come home or did you make excuses to go out and do things and try and be out of the house or anything like that? Or was it

3 (15m 45s):
Not really? Because I am a homebody. I really love being at home and I I've got two kids. And when they were younger, I love, I love just being at home. So it was that fear in the evening and going, Oh yeah, he's gonna be home in a half an hour. And then that tearing around the house, trying to do all the things that could possibly set him off. And then when he walks in the door, wondering what shit is going to hit the fan tonight.

0 (16m 18s):
Yeah. I know someone else has told me that very same experience of waiting for their partner to come home. And when he deed, he would always find something that wasn't done to his satisfaction. Yeah. Firstly, I don't get it like mainly because I don't give a shit to be honest, like I'm hopeless. I don't care what really happens. Anyway. As long as the one time, you know, things are pretty cool. A standing.

3 (16m 40s):
Yeah.

0 (16m 43s):
Now, okay. 17 years you were together. When did that all begin? I mean, did it, was it right from the start or was it because, I mean, a lot of the time in our relationship, there's a good honeymoon period for all. And then it's the little things I wish you wouldn't do that. And then it becomes, I really hate that you do that. Don't do that. And then, you know, whatever. So sorry. Yep.

3 (17m 5s):
So when we met, we were actually at a conference, both of us in Anaheim, California, and we met there. I went back to Seattle. He came, he was living here in Brisbane at the time. So he came back to Brisbane and then we corresponded by email and phone for six months. Then I went to Sydney where his family was at for Christmas. And that's when we got engaged. And then of course I went back to the States. So the first year of our relationship was spent apart. I didn't, yes. I didn't see him. I didn't see him interacting with people with his family. I didn't have any of that experience.

3 (17m 46s):
So then he comes to the States the month before we're to get married and watching him interact with my family, he was drinking a lot smoking. And these were things that I was not, I didn't realize that he did them regularly. And I was like, okay, well he's now come from the other side of the world. We're getting married in a month. How do I feel about canceling a wedding? And so I basically, I did, I was actually, I was wondering, is this really the right choice for me? And I think also because of my childhood, my past, I had imagined I had made up stories, what being married would be like.

3 (18m 32s):
Right. And so I

0 (18m 33s):
Was more in love

3 (18m 35s):
With the idea of being married. Then I was actually in love with him.

0 (18m 40s):
I found a lot of women I've spoken to, will in love with the wedding day. And I don't think it was enough consideration about what happens after that. What's the, you know, the forever bit you talk about that'd be great. Reception then would have, it was shit

3 (18m 58s):
Fabulous. Yeah. Well wedding reception, it was fine. A couple of days later we had to Vancouver, BC for our anniversary or for our honeymoon. Right. And I'll never forget this. We pulled up well. So when we left Seattle, it's like a two, three hour drive to Vancouver. And when we left, we hit rush hour traffic going into the tunnel that goes into BC, Vancouver. And he was sitting in the car. I was driving and he had a newspaper and he was just

4 (19m 35s):
Flick, flick, flick

3 (19m 38s):
The pages. And I could tell he was angry and I'm like, why is he angry? And this doesn't make any sense to me. And then we arrive at the BNB and he was so rageful. I got out of the car and the woman met us. And she's like, he's calling from the top of her stairs. I'm like, huh? He threw the keys at me. He had the keys in his hand and for whatever reason, he threw them.

0 (20m 3s):
And this is two days after your wedding. This is two days after our wedding.

3 (20m 7s):
And then there were multiple things over the course of our honeymoon that happened that I was just like, I, he criticized so many choices and things about me and I thought old Lou and I were talking about it earlier, that when you're in an abusive situation, typically most of us, when we get intuition about something, we pay attention to it. We go, ah, I don't think I like that for whatever reason. And you don't go there. Right. But when you're in an abusive marriage or abusive relationship, your intuition is squelched because you can't possibly admit that the choices that we've made have led us to this place.

3 (20m 52s):
And so I'm just going to do my best to make the best out of this situation. It's yes, it is.

0 (21m 1s):
Bring it up. But yeah.

3 (21m 4s):
Well, at the, at about the nine year Mark, we did separate for a short period of time. And it also needs to be said that I was, that we were in a church community and in the Christian community and separating divorcing is, especially in America is not an acceptable thing to do.

0 (21m 26s):
You haven't heard my podcast before, so you haven't heard any green about religion now, personally, I think it does a lot more harm than good, but anyway,

3 (21m 39s):
Well you and I could have a lovely conversation about this and

0 (21m 44s):
I,

3 (21m 45s):
I'm not saying that those choices were right, and I'm not saying that that attitude within the church is even right. And I am going to point out that things are changing within the church divorce, especially when abuse is involved is becoming more accepted abuse itself. Churches are starting to realize what abuse looks like, what it is, what, how it's exhibited when women and even men, children are crying out for help. The church is starting to listen. The problem is they're so far behind.

0 (22m 20s):
Yeah. You're spot on. I'm just going to chat about my new sponsor for a second. And then we'll get back to some of the bits of posts. But I do like where that's heading in, not just about, I'm not ragging on the church, but in society sort of tend to say, well, look, I got cactus Jack to our sponsors today. One of my favorite little places for a drink every Sunday, just about, you'll find myself there on the waterfront, having a few cold Corona, icy cold, and a bucket to office and a few chicken wings and whatever they, as you watch the world go by. But Robin, the crude in the OBS taken over recently, he was managing, he owns it now and they've done an amazing job. I got to places for staff primarily.

0 (23m 1s):
And I definitely go to cactus checks for how warm and wonderful their staff are and how cold they Baeza, checking out. <inaudible> tell them I sent you. Okay. Thanks for, thanks for a little break there, Heather, I'm interested in, he's like one of the things that you told me about the chore, the church and how far on and getting it, which I think is fantastic. I think society's a sign. I look back, my, my mother suffered pretty serious physical abuse from my father. He, she kicked him out when I was seven. So I don't know if it went any deeper than that, but imagine it did, to be honest, he was a high drinking gambling, you know, lie about as much as anything.

0 (23m 44s):
And I saw a lot of the physical side of it. Didn't see the rest, but back then he didn't talk about it. It was a really neat thing. And I think that's a lot of society. Now we get into this wonderful point, our hope with you side and people recognize that there's an issue there. And that's something that can't be put up with. Like, I, for instance, never, I would never listen to a block at the pub sign. You smack these pieces and go and not say anything. I'd say you're a piece of shit. And know, as I said, I'm now enjoying myself and I've had my drama as a pass, but I recognize I was a piece of shit been too. So, but you know, there used to be back when I was a young filler and the cops were there and you'd have guys talk about cheating on their wives.

0 (24m 25s):
And ah, it's not funny, but there's nothing about that. And in our society, I feel like that has become unacceptable. Maybe it's just in my arena. I don't know. Maybe there's other areas where it's, it's laughed about, but it's certainly not in line with your situation with the church there. I applaud the fact that although it's hard to change an institution that has such a long history in it, if they're changing their ways, that's great. And part of the reason that we're doing this chatting today is to change the way it works, why it happens. I don't want anyone sitting there copying it or feeling lost and alone and not being able to say anything about it. So do you feel that, so, I mean, for your experience out of it now, cause you're a couple of years out of the situation.

0 (25m 10s):
Yeah. Do you feel like it is improving? Are we making a difference? Are we,

5 (25m 16s):
I think

3 (25m 18s):
Typically yes. Now I'm two years out of it in Australia. What it looks like in America. I don't know, but here I have no, no he's here. Yep. I'm here. I know that I've had a lot more support than I from the government, but also from other places here than I would have in America.

0 (25m 43s):
Tell me about that. What's the stance like in that regard, is it just not talked about or

3 (25m 48s):
No, it's when I say support, what I mean is if I had left him when we were in America, I would have really struggled because I had two kids. I wouldn't have been able to make as much money. Finding a job would have been difficult. The support from the government would have been almost nil really. So here, once my residency came through, I was able to find a really good job as well as with child support. Like they were chasing him up. It took a long time for him to start paying, but they kept chasing him up. And plus with family tax benefit and few other things, I have been able to make a really good go of it.

0 (26m 33s):
That's awesome. I mean, there's lots of argument, even, not as much in the States, as in the States, sorry, it was easy. But like I love the fact that we can support those that need us. And I'm you got that support, but look, look, sorry. I know you're busy with everybody. Okay. So what was your, I mean, do you know you are involved in a couple of women's groups and what have you for different mainly for business. Yeah. But how do you feel about this issues is something that is, I mean, I'm not a cheek, so I don't know how these, these discussions work and wants us to find out from a guy's point of view. That is something that is disgusting.

0 (27m 14s):
And that's, you know, if there is a problem at home, we try and you try and work through it, except if they're a decade and then they're on their own. So to speak. I mean, what is the story? Do you think these things are getting better? Do you think there is improvement? Or am I just saying a shiny side that isn't really there?

2 (27m 29s):
I think there's an improvement in the way that women talk about it. Women that have been affected by it, they're more open to be able to discuss it now in terms of the, you know, the courts and the police force and the people that are at the front line and dealing with the domestic violence. I don't think things are changing. And I say that as someone that's been through DV court twice now I've been through two hearings. One of the magistrates actually said to me that I don't know what this gaslighting term is. I can only assume it's a social media term. So you've got magistrates that don't understand domestic violence.

2 (28m 10s):
So even with the people that are front, like dealing with the victims of domestic violence, they understand it when it comes to actually holding the perpetrators accountable, the people that are responsible for holding them accountable, don't understand domestic violence. They don't understand that domestic violence. Isn't just physical. They're looking for evidence. So they're looking for, or did he hit you? Do you have a bruise? Do you have, do you have a picture of, and we have to present all of this evidence, some of which we can't present because it's so covert and how do you, how do you prove psychological abuse?

2 (28m 53s):
You can't have someone look inside your mind and, and see what damage it's done.

0 (28m 59s):
HSE thing, isn't it? Because it's sort of like, how do you prove? I mean, because our legal system is based on the fact that, you know, innocent till proven guilty. And I think that's a very good way to guide it in general, but it's a difficult thing. If someone's doing something subversive, you know, the cover of, you know, the guise of a smile sort of thing too,

2 (29m 19s):
I didn't do it. And it's up to us to prove that they did, which is fair because obviously, you know, you don't want innocent people being accused of things, but it's very, very hard to prove psychological and emotional abuse. The professionals that work in the DV services understand it. Like I said, the magistrates don't so for us to be able to prove that it's very, very difficult.

0 (29m 46s):
Can I, can I ask you a question and please feel free not to answer this, but what you said you went to court twice. What was that about? What were the circumstances?

2 (29m 54s):
Protection orders, one thing 2016, after we separated,

0 (30m 0s):
What was going on for you to have that happen? What were you, why were you the protection?

2 (30m 5s):
So he was threatening me threatening to withhold the children from me, threatening me that he would, he would call the police and department of child services on me. So lots of loose threats, but also just a lot of verbal. Yeah.

0 (30m 24s):
So that was primarily what was it? Text messages. Was it on the phone? Was it email text message. And that's an, and then as you say, you said there was never any physical inevitably you now isn't that interesting because that is just another form of abuse. I had any very difficult situation once that it was a couple of years after I got separated and I was talking to a friend of mine, a female, and we were talking about something that she wanted some advice on some work stuff. I said, coming to the chat and she was sitting there with me and her farm was gone. Dessert was just <inaudible> do you know, to get that? Is that published? She said, don't ask me this.

0 (31m 4s):
It just show me what was going on and what had happened was, and I don't think that ever been anything physical than that either what had happened was she, he was been telling the kids on the Friday night, she'd made planes and he decided that he wanted to go out and she should have kids. Now that was against the agreement they had and whatever her name names, just reams and reams and reams of abusive sheets and what a slut. She was, what a mouse she wasn't. And now you're the fucking most mother in the world. And you know, your kids hate you at all. Let's discuss. And, but it's not physical. I mean, she can get a punch in the mouse as she got,

2 (31m 40s):
But that's evidence that she had evidence

0 (31m 45s):
Or, you know, other bits. I mean, I've heard stories about, you know, you come home and your pot plants moved and all that's happened is he's rocked up. And he's done that just to put the window up, just to let you know that he can get closure and you to honor scifi. Whereas there's both sides to this, you know, there's, there's women that perpetrate this world as well, but it's all these little forms of inciting fear or doubts or, you know, making you not feel safe that you like. That was just interesting to me that if you're going to court about, you know, requiring protection and you've never been here, like how did was that, was that a problem for the magistrate? Did they think,

2 (32m 27s):
Yeah, basically it was flown off as a family law issue. So this is a dispute over children. You need to be at family court, but what they don't see is the it's, it's really hard to explain, but the

3 (32m 40s):
Tone behind the messages. So I know from dealing with him for so long, we were together for 10 years. I know, I know the time behind the myth messages. And I know that it's really hard to explain, but I know that there's an ulterior motive behind it. It's hard to explain that to a third party, but usually someone who's not interested in actually, and someone that doesn't care, someone that says, I don't know what this Gaslight is. They obviously don't care. So then you start questioning yourself again and you're like, well, was it as bad as it's retraumatizing?

0 (33m 18s):
Yeah, I am. Look, thank you very much for like, talking about all this. Stuff's probably not a great time, but we get that a lot of NHI. So that's, you know, talking about tough stuff, but how long were you in that relationship for before? Well, how long? In total? 10 years in total, we were married for three. Okay. All right. He's he's an obvious question. What did you get at? I love that question, but it's shit. Isn't it. Why did he do what he did, Heather? What did you get at, you know, seven years you knew after on day two that Whoa.

3 (33m 52s):
Yeah. Well, it has to do with again, what I was talking about earlier, squashing, our intuition, not wanting to admit, I think I've made a mistake. Certainly I can make the best of the situation. Oh, if I just XYZ, then he will ABC. So women who are in abusive relationships have a tendency to do all of these things, to try and make the situation as best they can. Someone told me once we don't get married to

0 (34m 25s):
Get divorced. And so, so

3 (34m 27s):
A lot of women who find themselves in these situations are like, well, I didn't get into this marriage and have kids just to end up being on my own. I wanted to be with someone. And if this is the only person who is ever going to love me, because now we think that right, and this is what love looks like. Then, then if I leave, no one will love me.

0 (34m 50s):
And I just jumped in there quickly.

3 (34m 52s):
So my ex once said to me, the kids were looking at pictures of our wedding. And one of the kids said, Oh, is that when you and daddy got married? And he turned around to them and said, yeah, that's that's the day we got married and mommy can never, mommy can never escape now. And then loft. So at the time I just thought it was an off the cuff comment or he's just making a joke. But I later realized that no, he did actually. And I thought, I thought there was no Skype. I thought I've made my bed. I need to lie in it.

0 (35m 23s):
Well, it's, I think it's, the marriage is a funny thing, isn't it? But you know, someone said, marriage is an institution and he wants to be in an institution, but I just did get married again for the second time in August. And I'm very happy not to say yet, but it is there's was a lot of focus put on to remaining in a marriage. Now I get that to hear that. How many kids do you? And you've got three with him. Yeah. I mean, I had three with my, my wife ex wife, so, and yeah, I mean, there is a lot of emphasis, a lot of flight to stay in it.

0 (36m 4s):
And now I think that's a good thing in some ones, but it can obviously go too far. Yeah. I mean, so you you're there a long time. Do you mind said it's this is, this is your check. So don't be asking when did dissolve enough was enough, whatever.

3 (36m 22s):
Well, when we got back together after nine years, and then we separated, that was kind of an odd separation, but within a few months it seemed that he had done some changing and he understood, and he had made some promises. And so we got back together again and things ramped up again. And it was the year before we moved here. So we've been here three years. So four years ago, I was just getting to the end of being able to deal with the constant yelling, the accusations, the gaslighting, having to ask permission. I'm like, I'm over 40 years old.

3 (37m 3s):
I shouldn't have to ask permission to go places and see people and explain myself and spend money. And so,

0 (37m 14s):
Sorry, I don't a marriage doesn't mean you become one person. Well, I think you still remain two separate people like Emma and I are separate people. We do our own things and maybe we'd love finance to get them to do stuff, but I have absolutely no issue with names on anything without money go for it. But a lot of, a lot of, it's not a lot that you've got to be joined at the airport or something.

3 (37m 37s):
And I think when, so a lot of abusers are narcissists and their world, everything has to revolve around them. And as soon as it isn't, then there's something wrong and they are trying to set that right. Which is where the additional abuse comes from. So the year before we left is when my tolerance for the abuse started to decrease. And I started seeing a therapist, actually told him, you have to start seeing this therapist too. And we ended up moving here. Things seem to be getting better, but he stopped therapy before we even left the us.

3 (38m 19s):
And within a year of moving here, I S he lit into one of our kids for some reason. And I was like, you know what? I am officially done. This is not changing. This will not change. And the big question with my therapist was, cause we were talking a lot about self care. And I said, my kids are actually learning about self care from me. And at what point is staying in this relationship, actually not caring for myself.

0 (38m 51s):
Yeah. That's a, that's a good way. That's a good thing to think about. Isn't it? Am I just saying it or

3 (38m 57s):
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's really important to realize that women who are stuck in abusive relationships, we don't realize that's what's actually going on. And so reframing it, reframing it into self-care or boundaries or figuring out what it is that I want, what it is that I need. Is this relationship actually supporting those things or are they robbing me of those things? So

0 (39m 27s):
That's it that's look, I dig it. That's a good answer. It's a tough question. When is it done? But yeah, obviously you came to a point in time when you get that, is it wrap it up?

3 (39m 38s):
No, it was just went over so well, I actually, when I ended the relationship with him, I had met someone else and he went around telling people that I was cheating on him in front of him because it has to be your fault. Yes, of course. Of course. He tried taking me to the pastors of our church and sitting me down and, and having them explain to me why I was making such a horrible mistake. He tried to tell me that I used to like, what about all the good times, man? Like all I can remember, all I can remember is the yelling, the yelling and the neighbor next door currently to my place.

3 (40m 23s):
He yells at his kids all the time. It's gotten better since I called the place. But, but the thing was, I didn't realize how traumatizing all the yelling was. And when I had to listen to this neighbor for a month, every day, yell at his kids, I called Lou and I was like off the charts. I was triggered. I was in tears. I didn't know. Yes. I did not know what to do. It was pretty bad. And so that's just that an indication of how bad it was when I was living with him.

0 (41m 3s):
Yeah, look, yeah. Lee, when did you figure out it was all during the shooting?

3 (41m 11s):
The turning point for me was so I didn't feel like I hadn't excused in exclamation marks. Real reason, reason. I didn't feel like I had a reason because he hadn't hit me. So I thought I was actually hoping that he would hit me so that I would be able to go, okay, I'm done. I can leave now. But because I never got to that point, I never actually felt like I would be able

2 (41m 34s):
To explain it to other people. I was so worried about what other people would think of me, his family, my family. It was all about what other people would think. And it wasn't until the point that my seven year old actually started having suicidal thoughts. And she said to me, one night, mommy, I don't want to be here anymore. And it was that moment in time, it just all stopped. The cloud lifted. And I was like, I'm out like game over. We're done. I'm not staying anymore for any of this. So that was when I started to plan to leave

3 (42m 11s):
Amazing when it's our children, it's our children that are the catalyst for us getting out. And also, I want to say on average studies have shown it takes women nine times before they actually,

0 (42m 25s):
Yeah, because I knew it was decades or I'd asked that question, Oh, why didn't you leave early? Cause it's hard. You might've committed with someone and you've got kids and you've got everything. You know, you, you are joined to this person and you're resources are tied up in the relationship as well. So I mean, it's, it's an obvious thing.

2 (42m 43s):
He told that it's your problem. This is your problem. You've got mental health problems.

3 (42m 47s):
You made this happen. This is your fault.

2 (42m 50s):
So you think I've got to, I have to go fix this.

3 (43m 1s):
And I quote, I don't think God thinks that emotional and psychological abuse is reason enough to leave a marriage.

0 (43m 11s):
That religion scores are another one. I've got Paul pastor Paul coming on in two weeks to do another. I'd had a really good chat with him a while back. And if he stops preaching at me all the time, Paul, come on, I've got to say too, we're going to have a good chat about Christmas and Christmas meats and lots of stuff. So I want to talk to a few other religions as well. But yeah, I find that that side of things interesting that daddy's backward step, as far as where society has gone to me is more a 70 sort of an opinion on things as opposed to how things are today.

3 (43m 46s):
Well, not only that, but if you read the Bible properly, there's actually no, there's nothing that supports that particular line of thinking. It's just that within our culture, women were never given the tools to be able to say, I don't like the way that you're treating me and even within the church. And

0 (44m 10s):
Did you ever go to the church and ask for assistance?

3 (44m 13s):
No, because I didn't really realize, and it was more of an awakening really. And the church here, we had been here for such short period of time that I didn't know the people well enough also to be able to be that vulnerable and to admit that my life actually is a sham. What you see is just pretty on the outside, rotten on the inside.

0 (44m 39s):
And that's gotta be one of the hardest things about leaving did and what you you've spoken before in these chat about, you know, maybe feeling like a failure Martin use that terminology, but feeling like it, father, but sign yet. This is a shame. This is bullshit. We're not happy. He's, that's a tough thing. That's an interesting thing for you too, in that you're in a diff you're in a foreign country pulling the pin. How much backup Jeff?

3 (45m 8s):
Yeah. I left a marriage without even arrested in visa. I went to

0 (45m 15s):
What nationality is your ex he's Australian. Yeah,

3 (45m 18s):
So yeah, he had a job and he actually tried to take my car away from me. That was pretty, it was, it was really difficult because I left and I really had nowhere to go. I couldn't take my kids with me. I actually had to leave them with him. Yeah, it was, that was a really scary night actually, when that became the reality that I was living in and I went into shock. My partner at the time came and picked me up, took me back to,

0 (46m 1s):
So you had a little bit of backup in that, just yeah. In your head, you ponder this on, whether you, you had somebody there for you, you had someone that was helping you that's okay. And I'm not sad. I'm not sad. That was a reason to go at all. But you had some ways because I did have a little bit

3 (46m 20s):
The support, but when I made that choice, like I had been trying to work with the church for at least a month, trying to get some help and everything was like a closed door and there was no options for me. It is, it is. And then when that night happened, when he took the car keys and he wouldn't let me leave the house and I finally got myself out and he followed me and there was yelling and screaming on the street, neighbors called the police sirens lights. It was mortifying, absolutely mortifying.

3 (46m 60s):
And Well, they came and talked to me first and I told my side of the story and then they went and talked to him and then they talked to the, our kids. And when the female cop came back and talked to me, it's everything seemed fine. I mean, it was, it

0 (47m 23s):
Was, yeah. I mean,

3 (47m 26s):
I can't say that I was terribly, I was the one who was

2 (47m 30s):
The most out of control. He was the one who seemed, everything was fine. And what he told them was, well, I was just really concerned for her because she just right. And I didn't even call to get a copy of the police report. Cause I was so ashamed of my behavior, but this is like classic. Yes, exactly. And, and that is indicative of what I lived with for so long that he would set up a situation and I would feed right into it.

0 (48m 2s):
Yeah. It's sort of, you get to trigger each other as much as anything don't you. And like you said, right at the status, you become someone you don't really like, can I, in your experience, like, okay, when you decided it was over what happened?

2 (48m 17s):
So I had this grand plan in my head. I'd already been in contact with the domestic violence services. So DV connect had referred me on to Brisbane, domestic violence. And they'd referred me onto the local domestic violence center. So I had a plan in place about how I was going to leave. And in my head, I thought, right, I'm going to tell him that we're separating. I'm going to ask him to leave the house so that me and the kids could stay in the house and happy days, fresh stuff. That's not how it went down.

0 (48m 49s):
I was about to say, I don't reckon that happened, but anyway, what am I,

2 (48m 52s):
My crisis counselor? When I went in there, she said, she said, I couldn't help, but have a bit of a giggle because you were so confident and you were like, this is what's going to happen. Bang, bang, bang. And she was just like, Oh God, I leave for you. So he refused to leave with the first thing. I was like, Oh crap, what do I do?

0 (49m 16s):
Death?

2 (49m 18s):
I can't remember exactly what I said, but I remember saying, you know, I'm leaving, I'm taking the kids with me. I'm not going to take them away. You'll still see the kids have to leave for, for my sake. And for this. And his response was I'll have your wedding rings, Spanx. And I was like, what? Yeah, no, no. There was no. What are you talking about? Why, why, why are you leaving? We can talk about this. We can work it out. I'll have your wedding rings back. Thanks. So I was like, okay, here you go. We done walked out. My dad was waiting for me outside.

0 (49m 58s):
When you say head dead, therefore you okay. We started this chat off about financial abuse. Now look, I think it's gone. It's been interesting to say that it's far more difficult things in, in an abusive relationship. Okay. So you got you've left. Okay. You've walked out. Where's your money?

2 (50m 21s):
I actually, obviously in a unique situation and a lot of people aren't in this situation, but I actually managed our finances. Okay. So I thought Heather and I were talking about this this morning, actually. And I had a bit of a, I was saying I had an epiphany. My epiphany was that I actually thought I had control of the finances, but I now realize I didn't. He had a separate bank account, which was his personal bank account, which he got paid into. He used to take out whatever money he wanted for the year, whatever. I don't know what that amount was that he took out and he used to pay, pay me the rest into the joint account and I would pay all the bills.

2 (51m 0s):
So I had access to our savings. I split our savings in half before we left. He didn't have, he never checked the, the joint account. So I knew that I was safe to do that without him realizing. So I split our savings in half and transferred my half to my parents so that they could look after that for me. And I had access to that and left the rest of their, they had a plan to exit, get some cash. Yes.

3 (51m 30s):
I did not have a plan, but when I left, he made the choice and he always seems very reasonable. He seems like a reasonable person. So he was like, right, you're leaving. That's fine. We'll just split the money that we have in savings in half. And so I got $4,000. So there ended up being manipulation around that over time. But

2 (52m 3s):
Yeah, I was just, it was just an interesting thought because after the event, when the rope is severed sort of thing in that seat, like what happens after that kind of thing? So I'm sure it wasn't all shits and giggles. I'm sure it wasn't. The financial abuse for me was actually post-separation. So there were small things that I noticed in the relationship such as I go by and large coffee and he'd say something like, Oh, you don't really need a large coffee. D we could have, you know, you could have bought a small coffee and we could have saved the rest. So small little things like that, that didn't seem significant at the time. But looking back now, they were all part of it, but it was okay for him to go out on a Friday night and spend a hundred dollars on beers.

2 (52m 46s):
Yep. That was fine. So a lot of it has been post separation and a lot of it is centered around child support and how I spend child support. I want you to give me a written list of how you're spending the child support. If the kids need something, he'll ask the kids. If you've got enough winter clothes and you know, for instance, kids are quite honest and they'll be like, Oh no, you know, I've got Holly, my jumper or whatever. I'll tell mom to use the child support money to buy you a new Heather. How'd you go with child support after. Did you have any experience with that after you go home?

3 (53m 21s):
Yeah. Well, there, there was this period of time after my residency was granted and I got a job. I had to have my own place in order for the kids to be with me. So during that time, I actually had to pay child support when I didn't have a job yet. Got my job, got that all caught up, saved a ton of money and got myself a unit. And our Mar our oldest during that period decided she had had enough and she wanted to come live with me. So that helped kind of alleviate that child support bill. And then he made a series of not wise choices and was our youngest was forced to come and live with me as well.

3 (54m 7s):
However, in that first year he moved a lot. He changed jobs, a lot, and child support couldn't find him. He didn't, he didn't move like outside of Brisbane, but they couldn't find it because he wasn't reporting any of those changes. Yeah. And then, and so he wasn't paying his child support for a good year. He has caught up with that now, and we've had some back and forth. And just like with Lou, there's been a lot of manipulation.

0 (54m 40s):
It's toughie. We're going to start wrapping this up soon. My,

3 (54m 51s):
Yeah, I'm doing great. I started my own business the 1st of October. And I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. It's very closely aligned with my talents and who I am as a person. So that's really satisfying. And my kids have made choices to spend more time with their dad, but it's freed up a lot of my own, my own personal space. So yeah. And I started swing dance class.

0 (55m 21s):
Oh, good Lord. It's so much fun. You enjoy that. You're happy. I am happy. Yeah. I'm very pleased about that, Lou, how are you doing?

3 (55m 38s):
I'm doing really well. I'm in a new relationship now. I've got a new baby in the corner.

0 (55m 48s):
Sorry. Can you play this back to her when she's 21? That'd be great. I'd like that.

3 (55m 55s):
Despain, like I said, just been through a second stint in DV court and that's all kind of

0 (56m 3s):
An ongoing issue. Still. It's an

3 (56m 4s):
Ongoing, it's an ongoing saga because we've got kids it's all very much centered around the kids. So it uses the kids to take contact with me and, and you know, it's just, there's always going to be, has as long as we have to communicate for the kids prepared

0 (56m 24s):
For that, but I'm in a good place now. All I am. Thank you very much devise to you for having an honest chat. I really do appreciate it. Thanks for trusting me. As I said, well at the start there, I appreciate it. I want to thank you. One thing that's otherwise not doing is meeting the fact that things got wrong on busloads sometimes. And I love the fact that some honesty about the fact that you weren't aware of things you did too, and I feel the same way in things I've done in the past. So thank you very much for that. I appreciate that guys. Thanks decks. It's been a pleasure. The first time we ever used my office, by the way. And I've never had a baby in one before.

3 (57m 5s):
Wondering what Renee Brown has her very first podcast called FFTs, which is fucking first times. So we kind of covered a lot.

0 (57m 20s):
So thanks. Thanks ladies. Really appreciate it. Big, thanks to cactus jacks for giving me the opportunity to take doing this every week. Thanks listeners. We will catch up. We've got a really special one coming up next week. I'll put some ads up for a shortly, but it should be good. Laugh. Thanks. Thanks gang. And come listen to you. Humble opinion.