Tough Broad: The Power of Adventuring as We Age - Caroline Paul

Caroline Paul is an author, adventurer, surfer, pilot and former firefighter who has published 7 books including The Gutsy Girl and Fighting Fire. Her most recent book Tough Broad: From Boogie Boarding to Wing Walking—How Outdoor Adventure Improves Our Lives as We Age is an exploration into the science and psychology of outdoor adventures and our relationship with these activities,  typically associated with youth and adrenaline, as we age. As Caroline writes "Ultimately, I am my best self in the outdoors - curious, brave, and present." Tough Broad acknowledges that older women are less visible in the outdoor adventure world as they age, but seeks to explore and uncover the benefits when they do continue to participate in and take up these types of activities later in life.

In this conversation, Caroline shares what motivated her to write Tough Broad and her own thoughts on positive ageing, the importance of awe and the power of gratitude. She highlights the research around the benefits of time spent in the outdoors as well as the stories of the women she met and shared adventures with, who are finding ways to thrive into their 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond.

To find out more about Caroline visit:

https://www.carolinepaul.com

Instagram: @carolinembpaul

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Transcript

  So today I am really excited to welcome Caroline Paul to the show. Um, so if you haven't heard of Caroline, I'm sure you'll be looking up her books straight after this. So Caroline is an author. She's an adventurist. She's a surfer. She's a pilot. She's a former firefighter. Um, I didn't quite know. Exactly what to include in the list because she's got so many amazing hobbies.

I think would be so relevant. Um, but she's published seven books, including fighting fire, the gutsy girl and her most recent book, tough broad, which is an exploration into the science and psychology of the outdoors and our place in it. As we age. Um, I came across Caroline's work on Instagram. Um, and I was immediately sort of digging around trying to find more about her work, thinking, how have I not come across her, her work beforehand, um, and reached out to her.

And she was generous enough to agree to come on the podcast. I think there are so many. Themes in, in her work that align so closely to everything we talk about here, um, whether it's how to keep adventuring as, as you age, as you grow, as you develop, um, the links between adventure and our own psychology and our emotional resilience, how it, How pushing ourselves out of our comfort zone enables us to grow and develop and to develop confidence in ourselves as well.

So I'm sure we'll touch on all of these and more. Um, but Caroline, thank you so much for joining me. It's such a pleasure to have you here. Oh, I'm happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you. So I suppose my first question, and I guess anybody who knows anything about your work will probably have had an understanding of, you know, the answer to this, but just, I'd love to know where the inspiration  to write this particular book around Adventure and aging and all the brilliant women you speak to and interview and share their stories of during the book, where did that sort of idea, I suppose, start or come from? 

Well, I was on my surfboard, honestly, in, in winter surf, and I'm not a very good surfer, but I'm a good paddler.  And, um, Yeah. There were a lot of men out there my age and older, but there weren't any women. And I knew there was a ton of women who surf better than me. And, uh, also the same happens when I'm on my electric skateboard.

The same happens when I'm flying my experimental planes. I see men my age, but no women. And I was 55 and kind of looking around and wondering what my own aging journey was going to look like. And I wanted to keep adventure in my life because as you said, I've  done, I've been in the outdoors. It's pushing my comfort zone,  you know, since I was small really, and I thought I was my best self.

And so I was, this book is really a quest to figure out my own fulfilling aging. I thought outdoor adventure had something to do with it, but I also wondered if there was some, some, some information that I had that was telling me that, Hey, you know what? Time to give it up because clearly other women had. 

That's so interesting. Isn't it? This idea, like, I mean, and it's certainly something I think.  You know, the, the struck a chord with me, this idea of,  of wanting to look around and seeing other people who, you know, either same age or other women who are out there doing it and how inspiring it is when you see, you know, other people who look like you, whatever your age, color, gender, um, background, but when you see that reflected in the, in the people also participating, it makes you feel, I guess, a sense of belonging as well.

In the sense of actually, I've got a space here and I. Unable to take it up. And actually when you stop noticing that, how you start to question your place, potentially, like you said, your place in the lineup, your place, you know, in the community in general.  I don't know that I was,  I was probably not gonna give it up, but I just wanted to know what other people like, where's the party that I'm not invited to kind of thing. 

And, you know, then, then of course, so I, I, um, this book is not a book of profiles of women who are  incredibly adventurous and they are in this book, but it's really about fulfilling aging. So it's about the science behind and the psychology behind it. So I think that's one of the misnomers about the book.

They think they're just going to read adventure stories and you will, but I was very interested in what is this mindset. That is, um, stopping women from being outside. And, you know, when I started the book, the pandemic had, was not yet here, and I made all these plans to interview women about why they were outside.

I didn't have a real specific plan, and then the pandemic hit, so I had to sit inside, and I did a lot of research on what fulfilling aging really was. And then I turned out when I went out finally, and  To, to do the interviews after the lockdown lifted that I had a much better grasp of, um, this journey.  I was just wondering when you, when you were doing that research, or I guess when you came to then combine it with the stories of, of, of the women you met and you spoke to  were, was there something that was really,  I mean, what was, what was the sort of thing that struck you that you hadn't realized or that, because I think there is a lot, obviously the, I mean the research around. 

connections in the outdoors and how much it can bring to us in a general sense in terms of our wellbeing, in terms of resilience. I mean, it is just, again, skyrocketed, I think, particularly as a result of the pandemic. Um, and a lot more is known about it and as talked about, but I think there are still some aspects and things that struck me when I was reading the book that I was like, okay, that's so, so that's really interesting.

And I was just wondering if there was a piece of research or a story that struck you thought actually that I hadn't thought about it from that angle before.  Well, I was well aware that our, the messaging around our aging as women is toxic and that we are being told very specific things that we're going to be frail, uh, we have to watch out for breaking bones, that we're on a cognitive decline and that are, you know, inevitably we should narrow our lives to protect ourselves.

And the men weren't getting that message because they were out there with me in that, you know, big sweller. out there up in the air. And so I didn't, this book is, has a lot of science that is backed up, but I felt like I did not need to do science on this. Like every time I mentioned like the toxic aging messaging, every woman like over 50 for sure, but 40, maybe even 30, they nod.

Like I don't do any science on that. That's proven. We all know it. So, um, But what really surprised me was the science I found around mindset and aging, which is basically that the way we look at our own aging predicts how well we age. So if you have a negative view of your own aging, you will have a hard, you have a higher chance of a cardiac event earlier than And a, and cognitive decline earlier.

And the opposite is true. If you look, if you feel like you're aging as a time of exploration and exhilaration, you're happier, healthier, and you live seven years, seven and a half years longer. That's huge. Oh, and they did, um, a study that I, that is not in the book, but in 2022, they did a study of, 14, 000 people I think over the age of 50 and found that those with a positive view of their own aging had a 43 percent less chance of no health issues in the next four years, none 43. 

Obviously this is all really important. You have to have a positive mindset, but then the obvious question was how, how do you get a positive mindset in the face of such toxic messaging? And again, we all know what it is. It's so insidious. It's so subliminal. It's everywhere. I see it in my friends, they were very disheartened about their aging journey and  everything was blamed on age, my aches, my pains.

I can't do that. I can't try that. And so the question was, how do you get it? And.  I had a feeling that  the link was Outdoor Adventure, and in fact, it was.  I just, when I read that in the book, I just thought that was so fascinating just because I think one, there's that bit about how we tend to treat our bodies and our minds are so separate, you know, when you, when you, you know, so much of the research looking into aging or diseases that occur as a result of aging, they're all very much body focused, they're medicalized, which.

You know, it's obviously necessary when thinking about, you know, interventions and when you think about it from that perspective. But I think, you know, we know there is such an,  a connection in the end between the way in which our brains operate, um, and the impact on our bodies. And that's not to say you can just think yourself out of ill health, but that fact that actually, like you said, that connection, between what is going on for ourselves internally and externally.

Um, it's something I think we don't fully understand. Um, and I just thought it was, it was really interesting that there was research one to support that. And then when you tie that to the anecdotal, the stories that you hear about, you know, I think that's something that struck me reading the stories in your book was the, the sort of, in a way, the agelessness. 

Of the people who are participating in the adventures that they were taking part in that they were they were conscious of their age But also why it was the sort of why not why shouldn't I be able to do this at this point? Why shouldn't I be able to try it rather than  coming at it from age first? I am this age and therefore I do something that is appropriate to that Right.

I mean, I think, um, it's pretty clear. It was clear to me that there's certain attributes that are sort of reserved for youth. And if you try to embrace them, like a little bit of recklessness, having fun, play, like all that is, is cordoned off for, for adults, I think, especially women. Especially as we age and so sort of reclaiming those feelings of fun and bravery is, um, is a, is makes people kind of sit up and look at you and you're basically, and this is, this is where the power really came and going outside is when you go outside.

What nature asks of you upends all that messaging that not only other people are putting on you, but you believe yourself. So when you go outside, you can't really feel that frail and you can't really feel that, you know, cognitively impaired because you're, you're always sort of dealing with the weather or the, or, you know, the, the, the hill was steeper than you thought, or you forgot coffee, or you are learning something new.

And.  All that is flies in the face of this messaging. That's where I found the power of going outside was. It simply was a direct rebuke to what we're told about what we should expect. So when you, and when you upend your own expectations of yourself, there's a lot of power in that.  So powerful. I think one of the brilliant things as well of just as thinking that so much of our  I sort of, our day to day lives is reflect, you know, reflected back to us physically in terms of you take photos or there's a mirror, you're supposed to look a certain way or behave a certain way.

And this whole point about how, you know, as you get older, you're supposed to sort of try and recapture your, your body. Your youth somehow, you know, whether it's, you know, uh, trying to, trying to look like you still did 20 years ago, or that there's some sort of shame around that.  And I, and I think it's really interesting, linked to that with being outdoors.

I know when I'm out, when I'm out surfing or whatever, it's only if I come in and look in the mirror and I go, Oh no, I do not look like I did in my head when I was on that wave. Somehow when I was out there, You know, you, you are caught in the moment and you're not thinking, this is how I look. Because like you said, you're caught up in the elements.

You're trying not to get, you know. Drowned by the wave or you're, you know, you're trying to work out where the trail is and all of those sort of things. It's only when you retreat back into that sort of the indoors world that it suddenly becomes a, Oh, okay. I look like a complete sandy mess. I probably should do something about this and your age start, you know, that those narratives around your age, some can start to resurface as well.

So I think I will. Yeah. I do want to say that these women were not ageless in that. They were actually embracing the stage in their life where they were still physically healthy in certain ways. I mean, there was, I interviewed a wide variety of women of different fitnesses and physical situations, but, and they were, um, they had a sense of themselves and they just didn't care as much.

I interviewed Vijaya Srivastava who learned to swim at 68. And I asked her if being older was a hindrance to learning to swim. I mean, swimming is one of those. psychological things that, um, you know, it triggers all those.  Those deep existential fears of drowning.  And yet she went out and she did this because her doctor basically prescribed exercise for her and she had never done anything outdoors before.

And when I asked her how age, Influence this this new learning journey of hers. She said it actually helped because she didn't care what you look like in her bathing suit. She knew she wasn't going to be a great swimmer. And there was this urgency of, um, you know, she's not going to get a second chance to do this again. 

I feel like it wasn't about trying not to be your age. It was just simply redefining what you could or could not do at that age. I think there  was a really interesting, um, I think it was quite near the beginning of the book where you said a woman growing old is the most boring movie ever in terms of, you know, how How that narrative is portrayed how we're supposed to to age or disappear gracefully in, in a certain way and I think, you know, a lot of the stories felt like they were sort of direct rebuke to that not that I'm trying to push myself into the world in terms of everyone look at me, but actually I'm going to. 

Like you said, alongside the aging process, um, and in spite of it, continue to find a way to navigate that. Not in spite, like, because of, almost. Because, you know, what really, uh, really, really surprised me is I was 57 when 57, 58, when I was writing this. And the women who were older than me that I asked, they all said the 60s was their favorite decade.

Which is eye opening, because that is not what we're told. You know, we're really told to look back at our gilded youth and, and, you know, and mourn that. That's gone. But in fact, we're at this incredible stage. Now, as I was saying, not just, uh, emotionally and experientially, but also physiologically because post menopause, all those caregiving hormones that have been employed throughout our life or, you know, after puberty in taking care of other people, our children, our partners, um,  and, uh, have changed.

They've ebbed, they've changed. And it's not that we are not.  empathetic anymore, but just we're turning that empathy onto ourselves more and we start asking what about me? What about what?  Let's care for me now. And I think that's great for the people around you. Like that's not a, that's an amazing opportunity.

And you know, Also be almost because of this lack of identity that we are given, or this, this invisibility, this fading away that you're talking about. This is an opportunity to because, you know, invisibility is a superpower to some degree, like now you can redefine yourself. So it's really a pity that we have, um, sort of subtly told women, this is a, terrible time of life because it's actually kind of an amazing time of life and over and over again women told me that.

Yes, yes for sure at some point the aging journey gets super difficult but until then let's take full advantage.  I mean I guess it sort of leads me to my next question really which is around you know again as you were hearing these stories as you were carrying out the research you know what what did you hear that I mean, I think you've just alluded to it partly, but was there something that really capped you and inspired you and made you think, actually, I hadn't thought about, I hadn't thought about either adventure or, or sort of aging and adventure together connected.

in this way before and that's, that somehow motivated or inspired me to try something or think about things differently. Well, I had this sense that outdoor adventure was good for me. Cause again, I liked who I was in the outdoors and I didn't really want to give it up, but I had no, I didn't, I couldn't really explain it to anybody.

And. Once I sat down and really started deeply researching fulfilling aging, I got a sense of, first of all, what we need to keep in our life, which is,  and which tends to fall away, like everybody needs this, but it tends to fall away as we age. We have to be vigilant to keep community in our life, to keep purpose in our life, to keep clearly health in our life and novelty in our life.

And then finally. Also, this positive view on our own aging, so that those five pillars of healthy aging, you can actually get the moment you step outside all, that's the unique thing I think about going outside. There's this, you know, clearly the health aspect. I mean, yes, you can exercise in a gym, but going outside, they have shown on a biological level.

In in, you know,  um, is so much better for your overall biology and your emotional well being. So,  uh, the research really astounded me. I found that, you know, things like the tree chemicals are really important for your behavior.  Inflammation markers. Um, birdsong is, uh, calms your brain, which is really important for memory and cognition.

They've shown, and also, uh, you know, also just the quiet of outside. They've shown that people who take a walk outside test much better on cognitive memory tests when they come back in. And that's because the brain has been rested. It's not, doesn't have to filter out those hard, urban.  And that's a lot of work that we're doing constantly.

So people, um, who have been outside have less anxiety and depression. So on this, just on this, health level on this holistic health level going outside is important. So people say to me, well, I go to the gym. That's great. I, you should go to the gym. I love it. I go to the gym too, but you're not necessarily getting maybe the, the community, or you're not getting, often people get the community, but you're not going to start getting the novelty.

You're definitely not getting all those health benefits, those extra health benefit. People say I joined a book club. That's amazing. You have to do that because that's great for community and for novelty, but you're not getting the health aspect when you go outside and pick an activity. You are often hitting all those in a really powerful, powerful way. 

It's like multiple touch points, I suppose. Or like you said, that, that, that you can get all of those elements in different ways. But this is, it's almost an accelerated, it reminds me of, you know, the reason I love taking my clients outdoors and when I'm working with them, because it's sort of, it almost acts as this sort of accelerated one stop shop of hitting all of these different things that you're talking about in terms of, like you said, the community and the connections you make that somehow can feel. 

Less, less encumbered, I think sometimes when you're walking alongside somebody or whether you're, when you're doing an activity alongside someone rather than that, you know, the, the intensity sometimes that comes in internally that I know people can relate to. And I think so from a community aspects, it can be huge, but yeah, I can really relate to, to all of those points.

I was just,  I was just thinking about.  Going back to that point you made around play, because I think that's such a,  such an underestimated, um, aspect of being a human, in fact, and, and, and like you said, how it gets discounted that in a way, children are encouraged to play and we go, well, that's how their brains develop through play, it sort of gets knocked out of them sometimes through the schooling system, or, you know, you've got to sit down and be rigid and, and sit still.

But this idea that actually our brains remain plastic.  As we continued, I think that's something you touch on as well. Yeah. I interviewed these boogie boarders down in San Diego. They were, they were between the ages of 60 and the oldest was 97 actually. And they were boogie boarding, which is a probably most of your. 

know what it is, but for those of you who don't, it's a very simple sport, which is why I was interested in it. Cause it was something that you could learn at, uh, at a late stage. And it was also, you know, really easy on your body. Cause as these women did, you can just play in the white water. And,  but what, what really surprised me about it.

So I went in with. to most of these adventures with an idea of where it would fit in my sort of fulfilling aging paradigm and came out often with really surprised at how it had opened up my own mind about new aspects of that. And what I saw with these boogie boarders, because it was almost because boogie boarding was so simple, that they really were engaging in this pure play, which they've done a lot of research on play.

In this case, it was probably, there's lots of kinds of plays, social play, um, object play, rough and tumble play, which is kind of what boogie boarding was. And it is a way that people bond. It's the way that you learn a lot about yourself and your limits and also what you can and cannot, what you can do too.

And I think, um, I spoke in particular to Lorraine Voigt, who was 60, when she saw these boogie boarders in the water having what looked like a lot of fun. And she didn't have any, an outdoor life at all, but it was a pandemic, so I think you're kind of more willing to do things at these weird times in your life.

And she thought, why don't I just try it? And she was hooked from the very first session.  And, but what she told me was.  She liked all the physical aspects about it, about being in the ocean, about catching a wave and feeling like you're going really fast. But what really surprised her was how much the community aspect meant to her.

Because she started to go boogie boarding on her own, she realized it wasn't quite as fun as when she did it with all these women.  And I think it's a, to go outside is a medium for all of us,  of, of many different social skills, because it provides the environment where you're bonding with someone without having to, um, you know, have having to be suave in terms of, you know, um, chit chat, you're there sharing a wave, for instance.

And that was really empowering for Lorraine. She became, she told me that she actually, well, the other thing she said is, And which shocked me, because I always looked down a little bit on boogie boarding as a surfer. Um, mostly because it was simple. Yes, no, no, I'm totally with you, yeah. But it's that very simplicity that makes it so beautiful.

Yeah. Because, and she said, you know, boogie boarding changed my life.  And I thought, really? How? And, She said, basically, a lot of times it's hard to explain, but basically what she told me is that look at this big Pacific Ocean, it's cold, it's windy out today, um, the waves are tumbling me around, I'm, you know, watching out for my fellow boogie boarders here, like, I am not frail, I am not boring, I am having, I am not cognitively, you know, on decline, just like, basically,  She had been told  she had basically upended her own expectations of herself and that power meant that she actually in her. 

Her non wetsuit life was trying to explore new ways of being also. So she was challenging her fear of heights, she told me, and she was a lot more social. She was saying yes to social outings because, again, she thought, well, if I can boogie board, What else can I do?  Yeah, it's so powerful. It reminds me, there's, so I, I don't live very far from the sea at all, and there's a group of women.

I think they must be in their sort of mid sixties, um, and, and a man in fact. So I shouldn't just say it's just a group of women. There's a, there's a group who started sea swimming and then last year they took up boogie boarding and I just remember going down to the beach, I'd be walking the dogs and they were just having literally the best time and all he wanted to do was run into the water and join them because they just looked like they were having so much fun.

And yeah,  I do think play is really liberating for women in particular because, um, you know, and I write about this in the book, we're so girdled as we, as we become adults. Well, first as teenagers, we're just watched a lot and judged about our mothering skills, our femininity, our, you know, our ability to be nice.

I mean, we're, we're constantly being assessed. And I think play.  Is defined as this sort of purposeless activity simply for the joy of whatever that is. There's a timelessness to it and there's an  unselfconsciousness about it and it's really important for women and it can really unlock something and when you're in your 60s you're sort of ready for that because again you don't care as much about what other people think. 

And just having, I was just thinking there's so few opportunities without searching for it as well, that actually, you know, particularly I think, you know, I think that was partly  when I go back to sort of, I suppose one of the reasons for starting this podcast as well is that actually,  You know, uh, what I love in the book is how many different activities you touch on.

And also this point about actually you don't, the activity doesn't have to be for you just because it, you know,  it's that exploring, there are different things that you can try. I think you talked about swimming and actually someone learning to swim. Actually, they may not carry on with swimming. You might try, you know, I've tried so many activities over the year and I'm like, yeah, that's, that's all right.

I enjoy that. That, yo, that's the thing that really resonates with me. But I think there's something about.  Having the opportunity, but also feeling that permission to go  and search it out and feel that that is something that is important, that you can prioritize that. I think particularly as women, that can be quite hard of going, actually this, I really need this, this really matters.

And it may look silly and frivolous or, you know, I should be doing something for other people or more important, or it's, you know, taking time out from the family or whatever it is. But it's there. But that actually that's the bit that allows you to feel whole sometimes.  Um,  and I think that really connected with what you were saying, just, you know, and again, going back to just, you know, that, that sheer idea of just play and purposelessness and just doing it for the joy of it is so important.

Um, so having written this wonderful book and, you know, and I know, I know it can be a really big thing to get the book out there and all the publicity. So, so not wanting to push you into your next step,  but I'm just wondering having done this research, having had these conversations, um, whether you've got a sense of actually, this is something I would like to take forward.

What, what, what are the next steps for you? How would this open up?  Well, I mean, I went on a lot of different adventures. So I went scuba diving with an 80 year old. And I also went birdwatching with someone in a wheelchair and I went sea kayaking and I learned to fly a gyrocopter. So there was a, it was a wide range and  Initially, the reason for going birdwatching, for instance, was so that I could urge people to go outside because, again, I knew that just going outside was simply medicinal on a biological level, and I interviewed, I went birdwatching with Virginia Rose, who's been in a wheelchair since she was 14,  and my idea was that It was about, I think a lot of women say they can't do something because of some limitation, and I just wanted to show that, um, if Virginia Rose can be in a wheelchair and go birdwatching, then most of us can find something to get us outside.

And But what I really, but I also didn't really think it was an adventure. There was that as kind of like, ah, this isn't really, uh, what I would call an adventure, but I'm going to include it anyway, so that  some people who maybe wouldn't scuba dive will, um, You know, in get the medicinal benefits. And what I found was bird watching is an adventure.

It has all the hallmarks of adventure, has all the rhythms. It has that, um, you know, anticipation of seeing a bird. It has the quest. Because there we are trying to find birds. It has the, the exhilaration when you see a bird. And we, we were actually on a bird a thon. So she wheeled and I walked six miles.

So there was that physical vitality. And I was learning new things, you know, so that, uh, everything about it was an adventure. What I really. Saw it was that it isn't actually the activity  that defines the adventure. It's how you feel doing it. So if you are accessing your exploratory side and your exhilaration and feeling physically vital and pushing comfort zones, you're on an adventure.

So I've widened my own view of  What can really captivate me. And I also did a lot of research on all that concept of all, which it turns out is really important for us as humans to feel all and is really easy to access when you go outside. And I hadn't realized that really a lot of the reasons I was going outside was to feel all.

I just couldn't put an, I really honestly had no word for that until I was halfway through this book. And I did a lot of research on all and found that. First of all, the definition of awe is, um,  that feeling of sort of fear and wonder and dread in the presence of something bigger than us. And,  uh, it's really good for us because not only does it do things like lower our cortisol and inflammation markers, but it, Um, it lowers our anxiety and it lowers our depression to things that happen  when we age that are, that are, you know, things we have to really watch out for.

So  I, and they've, they've done studies on, on, you don't have to, um, well, the way, the way I found my own, as you know, is by climbing up on the wing of a plane,  uh, because I was,  interested in how a one time adventure would change us, uh, neurally maybe, or at least confidence wise. And so I did something called wing walking.

It's on the cover of the book. That's me on the top of the plane. And  what I realized after was that I was feeling some adrenaline, of course, cause you're on a, you had clambered on a wing at 3000 feet, but really what I mostly felt was awe. And that. Luckily, you do not have to climb on a wing in order to feel awe.

You can simply  go walking. Yeah.  They had a, they had a great study here in San Francisco, actually, where they asked people between the ages of 60 and 80 to go on what they called awe walks, where they Simply said, instructed to, um, to have them look at things with fresh childlike eyes so they could, what they call, to cultivate awe.

So we can cultivate awe in us every time we go outside by just, uh, looking at things with wonder, being very present. And they followed these people for eight weeks and they found that their inflammation markers went down. They're, they self reported. Significantly lower, uh, depression and anxiety and the really cool thing was that they self reported higher rates of gratitude and compassion, which is powerful and we all need in our life.

Yeah, no, it's, it's so interesting. I mean, it, it really resonated with me and thinking back to where the sort of the whole idea around everyday adventures came from for me as well, which was, you know, that thing of actually how do, how do children look at the world? And seeing it in my own kids actually that they found endless fascination in grubbing around in the dirt, quite frankly, and delaying me on work, walks, looking at things.

I was just like, come on, please. We're going to be late. And actually going on a site there on, they're on an adventure right now. And, and that, like you said, that stopping and pausing and just noticing, you know, I, I know now if I'm ever feeling sort I'm really stressed or, you know, I'm head down in emails and think, Oh, actually I really need a break for this.

I'll just go and stand and look at a hedge and, and immediately you start, you'll see the bees start coming out, you see little insects crawling and suddenly you're in a completely different world and you're transported. So that whole part, I mean, I absolutely loved the section on, or I loved also the, the way in which, because I think similar to you, I'd always sort of thought, Oh, do I love these things?

Because. You know, sort of talked about being an adrenaline junkie or you love the rush or whatever, but actually, like you said, there's something about the environment that is  so,  that is such a fundamental part of the experience and that you can capture that in so many ways. It doesn't have to be like I said, it  has to be said when I read that book about the wing walking, I was like, I'm not sure I want to go quite that far.

Um, but it was amazing just to think, actually, you can, you're trying to capture a feeling. You're trying to capture an experience that opens things up for you in a way that,  that just walking through or, or, you know, going through your daily life, sometimes we just miss and we miss the opportunity. We could access it, but we miss the opportunity and nature just really, you know, Is it what they call an awe trigger because, uh, it is awe inspiring, but it doesn't have to be the night sky or the grand canyon that obviously is, uh, or wing walking again.

You just have to sort of be in the present moment.  And the, the crazy thing is that we live in a world of anti odd devices, you know, our phone, where we narrow our vision. We're not looking out. outward, and we feel very powerful in control.  And that also is not an awe feeling and also not a great feeling.

They found that, um, awe really, the reason you have a rise in gratitude and compassion is because you can, you understand yourself more in relation to the outside world. And, um,  yeah, that's, that's one of the other things awe gives you. Awe also gives you resilience. I hope you saw that part where it, it offers emotional resilience because you tend to tell, um,  better stories about what has just happened when you are someone who is easily subsumed by awe.

And in fact, the wing walker, Cynthia Hicks, who was 71, she had survived cancer. And so she had pulled back on a lot of her outdoor activities as she aged. But she never seemed to be, um, sad about it. She was like, Oh, you know, I had 30 years of snowboarding. That was great. And now I, or I had, you know, 25 years of, um, mountain biking, but I can't really do that anymore.

So now I road cycle. I mean, she was the most grateful person I had ever met. She was full of gratitude about everything. So it was no wonder that she had found wing walking and led me to that.  It's amazing, isn't it? Just that, yeah, it's so much of it comes down to how you frame the experience and how you, and how you choose to see it and revisit it, I guess, as well.

Um, I'm just wondering if, if someone's listening to this and they think, You know, obviously we've touched on a whole range of different possible activities, but like you said, in the end, it's not necessarily about the activity itself, but about, you know,  the way in which you approach adventure, invite adventure  into your lives as well.

If someone's listening to this and they think, actually, I'd love to either  Start to live more adventurously, regardless of where I am in my life right now, or I want to continue to do this as I, as I age, as you know, as the years go by, I don't want to lose that part of me. I mean, what's the one piece of advice you would have for them?

Um, well, I, I think of Virginia Rose, the birdwatcher  was in a wheelchair. She told me  that. What does she say? She says, access your inner explorer because she is your best self. So I think just leading with that curiosity and that exploratory mindset and that willingness to be exhilarated, I want to say one quick thing about fear because it seems to come up a lot with women.

So, um, I did, you know, I wrote a book called The Gutsy Girl because I was interested in the messaging that girls get and that we give girls as we raise them. And it turns out that we, Raise our boys to embrace bravery, but we raise our girls to embrace fear. And we do that because we are, we think it's going to protect them.

You know, if they're fearful of that dark alley, they won't walk into it. If they're fearful of that stranger, they won't talk to him. But in fact, if you lead with bravery, you learn all these skills like risk assessment and self confidence and relying on your own decision making because there's nothing more dangerous than relying on somebody else to make decisions for you.

So. I was really clear that we need girls to lead with bravery, but you know, I still encounter so many of my peers who bring up instantly, Oh, going outside. What about, I'm so scared. Like that fear is something they talk about a lot when about going outside. And I'm just, I just urge women.  Uh, in particular, because, um, because it is women who, to think of fear as just a side effect, um, it's like a pharma, it's like when you take a pharmaceutical and it's really good for you, and then you see the long list of side effects that include vomiting and diarrhea, don't, don't drive that tractor, uh,  Fear is just a side effect.

It's one emotion and it's a red flag and you should look at it. And, but you should never let it stop you, um, because most of the time we're so wrong about our fear. So once you look closely at it, you see that most of it is just murky and, and not relevant to the situation. Um, but so think of it as something.

Don't do anything like, obviously I'm not somebody who,  I have become someone who isn't somebody who's just reckless. I think you use your skills, and you use your, your, your common sense, and you look at fear and you don't, you don't want abject terror. But, don't Often fear and exhilaration feel very similar and women can't really tell the difference.

And, uh, so, you know, they, their heart starts to race, they, they sweat a little and the hair stands up and they're like, Oh, I'm scared. I should just stop. And in fact, you might be feeling, you know, feeling a lot of exhilaration. And that really means that you're about to have some. you know,  experience that might open up your life and you don't want to step back from that. 

I absolutely love that. I was just thinking, you know, it's, and like you said, it's so, it's so ingrained from such an early age to avoid or to see the fear as a signal to stop. And actually that sort of almost that practice of leaning into it, or at least sort of sitting alongside it and, you know, and, and, and, and allowing yourself to make those choices.

Sort of not, like you said, not, not paying attention to it, but going, okay, maybe. maybe this is, where is this coming from? What's driving this fear? And actually maybe I can sit alongside it and do it anyway. And what is the real fear? Like the real fear is often like, Oh, you know, I'm going to, um, let's say, well, I, at the end of the book, as I went stand up paddling with one of my best friends and we were going to try to find bioluminescence at night.

And And we play this game called the what's the worst that could happen game because my friend Sophia tends to be someone who's like, Oh my, you know, she just, her boundaries are different than mine. So we, I walk her through what's the worst that we can happen. And each time she says the worst, I point out really, you think we're going to fall in the water.

Okay. But we're attached to our standup paddle board. So it's okay. We'll just clamber. And we have wetsuits. We'll clamber back on. Oh, we'll get lost in the dark. Yeah, we might. Well, that means we're going to sit on our boards for eight hours and it's going to be uncomfortable, but are we going to die?  So we go through this where we really look closely at what we're afraid of.

And usually it's just nothing. I mean, it turns out that we're not really afraid of anything specifically. We're just feeling fearful.  Yeah, I love it. Such powerful advice. It's brilliant. Caroline, that's been absolutely amazing. I could carry on this conversation probably for another hour. I'm conscious I probably should give you the rest of your day back.

Um, but if people want to find out more, if they want to get the book, if they want to find out more about you and your work, where, where can they go?  Um, well, the full title of the book is Tough Broad from book. You'll probably say this in the beginning.  That's all right. Say it. Say it anyway. Tough broad from boogie boarding to wing walking, how outdoor adventure improves our lives as we age.

And you can find it. I think it comes out in the UK in June. In the, in June. Okay. Brilliant. So June 19th, I think I'm throwing it out there. And then I'm on Instagram, Caroline M. B. Paul, M as in Michael, B as in Bravo Paul. Uh, yeah. Fantastic. And we'll pop all of those links in the show notes. Oh, and I have a website.

Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Caroline Paul. Yep. Awesome. I'll make sure they're all linked so people can go straight and find you. I believe you can also pre order the book. Um, so if you're listening to this podcast in the UK and you think, absolutely, I've got to get this, but you think you might have forgotten by June because of all the other things going on in your brain, go and pre order it.

And then it'll, it'll magically appear in June when it comes out. Um, Caroline, thank you again for your time. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you and yes, your podcast.  No, it's been such a pleasure. Take care. Thank you. Bye.