6 Ranch Podcast
Professional Outdoor Camera Work with Sam Averett
Ever wondered how to keep your gear functional in sub-zero temperatures or how to capture the beauty of a wild hunt? Join us as Sam Averitt, a former Forest Service worker turned full-time adventure photographer and videographer, shares his expierence. Listen as he shares how to keep your batteries warm when its cold and discusses demanding aspects of filming sheep and mule deer hunts.
Don't miss this episode packed with practical tips like using iPhones with spotting scopes for distance shots and managing wind noise with appropriate audio gear, and inspiration for anyone passionate about outdoor photography and filmmaking.
Check out the new DECKED system and get free shipping.
Ever wondered how to keep your gear functional in sub-zero temperatures or how to capture the beauty of a wild hunt? Join us as Sam Averitt, a former Forest Service worker turned full-time adventure photographer and videographer, shares his expierence. Listen as he shares how to keep your batteries warm when its cold and discusses demanding aspects of filming sheep and mule deer hunts.
Don't miss this episode packed with practical tips like using iPhones with spotting scopes for distance shots and managing wind noise with appropriate audio gear, and inspiration for anyone passionate about outdoor photography and filmmaking.
Check out the new DECKED system and get free shipping.
if it's cold, and if it's cold a lot of times what I'll do is try to keep those batteries next to skin or at least close to a heat source, right, and I know guys that use hand warmers and things like that if it's really cold out to keep those things warm in your pack or keep them warm in your pocket. And usually I'll do that same thing. I'll throw a handful of batteries in my pocket and bury the other ones in my pack and wrap them in a down layer and things like that, and you kind of get what you get. But at the end of the day I feel like if you can keep those batteries warm, they seem to perform a lot better.
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Speaker 1:man, I think that's a tough question. Um, I feel like everybody probably has a different answer to that. I could probably give you a couple, but I don't know if I could give you one. Uh, my limited experience, I I've had a blast mostly because I like to like to chase them, uh, when I have a tag, but filming cheap hunts has been an absolute blast, and then I really love chasing mule deer, and so filming mule deer hunts has also been been a blast for me. Um, yeah, those two are probably at the top for me as far as, like North American stuff goes, which is primarily everything I've done. But, yeah, if I had to narrow it down to two, I would do those two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are good answers and, uh, the best thing about that question is that there's not a wrong answer, right? Unless you would have said like llamas, in which case I just would have ended the interview politely and we would have both moved on with our life.
Speaker 1:I did have a little bit of a llama experience last year and it was actually quite pleasant. I had a great time.
Speaker 2:Oh man, you've been in Montana for too long, if you're starting to say stuff like that in public. Well, why don't you introduce yourself and tell folks what your profession is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my name is Sam Averitt. I grew up not far from you, there actually in Eastern Oregon. Grew up in Baker City. I was born in Idaho originally. Yeah, I work now, I guess, as a full-time photographer. It was kind of a work in progress for a long time. I worked for the Forest Service for a lot of years Not a lot, I shouldn't say that but six years or seven years for the Forest Service and then kind of slowly made the transition to full-time doing the photo and video thing and that's been the full-time gig here since like late 2018. So, yeah, it's been a blast to do a lot of work kind of in the outdoor and hunting space and things like that. I feel fortunate, I guess, to get to spend a lot of time outside and call it work.
Speaker 2:What's the real difference? Besides, you know the obvious part between still photography and videography within this hunting and outdoor space.
Speaker 1:That's a good question. I um, I mean, for me I think I think I have, uh, I guess, getting into it. Originally I was, I was super interested in the still photography side of it, and I feel like when I'm doing that I can really focus on trying to be creative in a way that maybe captures images that uh, you know, you don't see every day, kind of in the outdoor space and and the video is is different. I feel like I'm always torn, video wise, between trying to document things kind of as they happen and then and also shoot stuff that's visually appealing, right. So with, I think, with still photography, you have a lot more leniency. You can kind of shoot things as they happen and you can create scenes in a way that I think is a little more forgiving than video.
Speaker 1:Video, a lot of times you know things happen the way they happen, right, and especially when you're dealing with wild animals and you're trying to film hunts and things like that, sometimes it happens the way you want it to and sometimes it doesn't, and you don't necessarily get a second chance to kind of try to capture that thing raw the first time, and I guess that would be the biggest difference for me I'm a, I'm a real pain, uh, to to film and it's, it's because I don't uh, I don't fake anything, I don't do anything over again for sure.
Speaker 2:You know the, the poor guys who have had to film me on hunts. They only get one crack at it. With still photography, I feel like there's some honesty and there's some imagination that goes on with that, because, from the consumer standpoint, I get to see what's in the picture and I get to imagine everything that's around it, and there there's a lot of there's a lot of honesty there. With videography, we get the illusion that we're getting to see the entire story and that that's often not the case. All this stuff, you know it ends up telling a story. And then there there's the marketing side of the house where, yes, it's telling a story, but it's also trying to appeal to a customer and show them some new products or the way that those products are used. And this is just the reality of it.
Speaker 2:I think that consumers look at some of the personalities that show up frequently within this, this hunting and outdoor space, and they think, okay, that's the person who's influencing me. Uh, what they don't see is that there's a sam avert behind the camera, who's also editing, who is really putting together how that influence is actually occurring, and you're getting directions from whoever, whoever you're working with, but, um, the the honesty that that you bring to a project whether you're shooting a still photograph or a video that you know folks are going to watch on youtube or what, wherever else there, there's a big responsibility that you carry with that to make sure that that people are getting an honest look at at, at the process, at the experience, at everything that's that's going into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that's definitely true. I think back to the beginning of that. I think you said that you know you don't recreate anything and you don't do do overs and stuff like that in in film, and I, I and everybody that I've worked with, that's, that's the same for us. I mean, I don't which I, I think you know, I think it's different. I, I guess I, I suppose there's a difference between making a film that involves hunting and then and then documenting a hunt, right, right, um, those things are different.
Speaker 1:But I totally agree with you and I think most honest way that you can portray it is the best way to portray it, especially in those in those docu-style films where it's nothing elaborate, right, you're just kind of as a camera guy, you're, you're it's documentary style.
Speaker 1:You're following, following the hunter and you're doing what they do and and kind of whatever happens happens, and I, I think that does happen some in the space and fortunately I've been lucky to work with people that have kind of the same take on that thing that you and I both do.
Speaker 1:It sounds like and the way that it happens is is kind of the way that it happens and you don, and you don't often try to make it look like something that it wasn't right, and I've always appreciated that about the people I've been lucky to work with and it feels to me I don't, I don't I really love hunting and it feels disingenuous to me to tell a story that is inaccurate, if that makes sense, and and to make something look like it wasn't right. I mean, we've all hunted enough to know that things often don't go the way that you planned them, um, and when that happens it sucks, but it's part of hunting and I kind of think it's your job as well. It's your job as the camera guy, but also as the person that's ultimately putting that out whether that's the content director of x brand or and things like that to try to put something out that's, you know, tasteful and also honest, I guess, if that makes sense yeah, totally and dude.
Speaker 2:That's why we're, that's why I'm talking with you today, is because that's something that comes across in your work that that I find huge value in. Right, I know I know enough about hunting to be able to smell a rat and I think a lot of people do too. Right, our, our generation got lied to so much in every other form of media while we were growing up that we got really good at sniffing that stuff out. And there's some vestiges of the old guard of media where it was very blatantly a lie but it was kind of in a, you know, charismatic oh it's television, we can do whatever we want, kind of way.
Speaker 2:There's still some of that out there and you see guys, you know, standing up there, you know, promoting products and saying see guys, you know standing up there, you know promoting products and saying that that you know they'll trust their life to this air rifle. And you know just the most bogus stuff in the world. You know probably some llamas grazing in the background and, uh, you know we're over that. We're really good at sniffing that out and I think that part of the reason that your films have, or the films that you've shot have done so well is because it's a breath of fresh air. You know you're bringing that honesty to the table and people really, uh, they associate with it really well. Is there a particular project that you're most proud of?
Speaker 1:yeah, that that's tough, I appreciate. I appreciate what you said. I and, honestly, a lot of that. I think a lot of that that kind of comes through in some of those films has a lot to do with not just me but even the people that, like a lot of the people that I've worked for and worked with on a lot of those projects, because you know a lot of instances it's their vision right, and you're kind of a hired gun in a way to try to align with that vision and make it look the way you know, capture it in the way that they envisioned in their head right when they decided they wanted to tell the story. So I think a lot of that comes back to the brands that I feel I feel really lucky to have worked with and still work with.
Speaker 1:But, man, a lot of the, a lot of the really fun projects that I've worked on. This is funny, but some of the things that I'm most proud of, I suppose, are things that never really even made it into. We were on a film and we were shooting a film and for whatever reason that it never went to production Right. I think that can happen for a ton of different reasons Mistakes, mistakes that we made or I made, or people made along the way, or just the company changes direction too.
Speaker 2:You know, I've totally I've been the part of film projects that one of them in particular I spent 50 days in one year working on. We spent over $100,000 and they just didn't do anything with it Like wow, I can't imagine. I can't imagine. And it was good, we got good stuff. I worked so hard for it. And it's like no, change directions, we're not going to do that Like okay, okay, that's cool, it's just 100 grand like let it go totally, man.
Speaker 1:And that stuff happens all the time and it's kind of a bummer sometimes is as the guy that shoots it to know that it just lives on a hard drive somewhere right and nobody's ever going to see it. But at the same time there's not much that you can do about that and and it's kind of one of those things you just got to let go.
Speaker 1:But it is crazy, you know you'll, you'll shoot a whole project and it'll get delivered and for whatever reason, you know, maybe it sucks, or maybe maybe they didn't like it or whatever, but it doesn't end up going anywhere, um and that's kind of part of the game yeah, and and maybe in 50 years these things will surface and it'll just be some dust on the bottle like vintage hunting stuff you know, right, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:You never know, you never know I want to ask you some some tactical questions for the folks in the audience that the home cooks out there that want to film. You know their hunt or their buddies hunt, and you know whether they're doing it off their iPhone or camcorder or whatever, whatever they've got. So, on the species that you mentioned, like mule, deer and sheep, those are animals that you're typically not going to be very close to when you're filming. And you know, right now I've got lenses all over my desks, the biggest of which is a is a 600 millimeter lens that still isn't going to do it on a sheep that's 400 yards away. It's just going to look like a slightly closer but still very far away sheep, right. So how do you film stuff that's a long ways away and make it look, look crispy and nice?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's a good. That's a good question. I think this probably isn't news to a ton of people, but, man, the technology that everybody walks around with in their pocket now is incredible, you know, compared to what was available even 10 years ago, right? So are the optics and the digiscoping kind of adapters that everybody has access to now, and so we use those things a ton at work and, honestly, you can shoot stuff on your iPhone through a spotting scope with a good adapter that it gets the job done right, and we use footage like that a lot in some of these films that I've worked on, and sure you can.
Speaker 1:You know, in some cases you can tell that it's through a spotting scope, you know if that critter's out there a couple miles, but at the same time, I think most of the people that are kind of watching these films and taking in this stuff, they get it and they understand that that sheep or that elk or deer or whatever it is, is two miles away and these guys filmed it through a spotting scope, I think. I think they've all done the same thing. So, man, I think having a good adapter and having an iphone and a and like the best glass you can afford. It's going to be spending 12 000 bucks on a 500 millimeter f4 that weighs eight pounds and you have to lug around in the mountains, right?
Speaker 2:I think that's a great way to start and somewhat affordable too for for kind of everybody out there that wants to film wildlife or hunting and things like that and another thing about it and I've I've struggled with with some videographers in the past is they're so used to shooting and you know they're used to shooting with a red or something like that where you know they've got this incredible image that they can develop and they don't want to give up a megapixel anywhere along the way. Right, but what's nice about filming something through a spotting scope when it's a long ways off is it gives the audience the same experience that you have when you're hunting looking through a spotting scope. So it's a little the same experience that you have when you're hunting looking through a spotting scope so it's a little bit more of that first person perspective.
Speaker 2:Uh, that, I think, lends some credibility, definitely okay. Another thing that can really quickly destroy a hunting film is wind noise in the microphone. Yeah, yeah, right. So a little bit of that. Once in a while it's like, oh, it's windy, but if you know every second or third shot it's like somebody like trying to talk in the background and they're whispering like we're dating on Facebook and you can't hear them in the first place. You know that's terrible. It's terrible. So how do you defeat wind noise?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a hard one too, and it's kind of one of those things that you always have to deal with, right? I think you know the shotgun mics. Everybody runs around and has a dead cat on that thing, and I do the same thing, and when the conditions are nice, that's great. But then too, we run a lot of like lab mics at times. So it's a bit situation dependent, we'll mic guys up with those too. If it's a. It's a bit situation dependent, we'll mic guys up with those too.
Speaker 1:If it's, if it's bad out, and that'll help, especially if in a situation where you're archery, hunting or something, or anytime you're in the woods, I guess people are trying to talk quietly, right, and so that lab mic tends to pick up what somebody's saying without grabbing so much background noise, and we use those quite a bit and and um, I think that's pretty helpful. But again, for one, there's a lot of people out there that are probably a lot better at and we use those quite a bit and, and I think that's pretty helpful, but, again, for one, there's a lot of people out there that are probably a lot better at that than I am, and I think, again, it just kind of comes down to conditions, right, get what you can get, and then if it's wicked windy you might have a little bit of noise in there, but hopefully everybody that's kind of watching the film can understand, can understand the conditions everybody that's kind of watching the film can understand, can understand the conditions there.
Speaker 2:there are some, some staple shots that show up in most hunting films that I'm a I'm a little bit fatigued by. When is it time to give up on stuff like you know, somebody's boots in slow motion crossing a creek or somebody you know lighting their jet boil in the tent. I've seen jet boils get lit in enough films. At this stage I'm like got it, we're going to heat up some water. All right, they are part of the experience and it makes a cool noise when the flame comes on. How do you decide? Okay, am I shooting a cliche or am I shooting something that people feel like needs to be part of this for it to even be considered a film?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question, man, and honestly that's something that I could and probably everybody that is in the same line of work continuously struggles with. You know what do you shoot and what do you not shoot, and and eventually, what makes it into the film. Yeah, like you said, I totally agree, a lot of that stuff is cliche and a lot of times when shooting it it feels at least to me, it feels cliche. I guess I always kind of default to if it's critical to the story or not, right? So if you have a good shot where somebody's hiking back to camp in the dark, they probably understand that you're going to go back to camp, make dinner, go to bed, do that thing. So maybe instead of trying to film them lighting the jet boil and making their dinner and sitting by the tent, something like that, you know, shoot a time-lapse or shoot, shoot something that maybe gives you a little bit more creative value where you can.
Speaker 1:I guess a lot of that stuff seems implied to me and probably to people that hunt a lot, right? So I'll usually try to, you know, film some of that stuff, just in case it becomes critical and you get to the heading bay and you realize that you need it. A lot of times it's not right, so shoot a little bit of it or shoot whatever you think is necessary. And then I like to try to focus on different stuff, right? So like catching a time lapse with a tent or just with the stars, things like that, or something that's a little bit different. And time lapses, too, are one of those things that have been done a million times, but I still think there are fun ways to shoot those that are not exactly, you know, the same way that everybody else has shot them.
Speaker 2:And those time lapses have a lot of value, especially after a scene that has some suspense and you want to transition into what's happening next, the next day, that afternoon, the next situation, and you can give your audience a little bit of a breather and they can reset and they can relax and then move on. Then you can build momentum into that next thing. I think time lapses are really nice for that. And they do look cool. They almost always look cool, they do.
Speaker 1:And I think everybody appreciates sitting out, especially in like September you get a nice warm evening and you're kind of sitting out at camp and it's 10 o'clock at night and you're making dinner and you're sitting there kind of just enjoying the star show and or at least that's something that I still, after all these years, I still love it. I still like looking up and and seeing the stars and wondering what's going on no, I love it too.
Speaker 2:Battery management tricky thing. If you're going to be filming a lot, you know batteries are heavy. You have to decide between bringing lots of them, bringing a means to recharge them. I just today set up a dark energy specter 18 watt like flexible folding panel thing. They can recharge my my dark energy rechargeable batteries and then I can recharge off those. So typically what I'll do is like recharge, you know, my, my battery banks and then at night I'll use those to recharge devices. Um, but I'm also not trying to run bigger batteries and bigger cameras and you know going through multiples of them a day, like you probably are. So what is your approach to battery management and how does it change with weather?
Speaker 1:I usually budget like a battery and a half a day for for video stuff and that gets heavy.
Speaker 2:An example dude camera guys carry weight man you guys carry weight yeah, there's a couple times I've reached over and grabbed a bag and been like, oh, I need to take it easier on you no, it does get heavy and those batteries definitely add up.
Speaker 1:We did a shoot a couple years ago up in alaska hunting doll sheep and it was. You know, it was going to be like up to a 12 days in the in the field, right. So we did a couple of things and and one of them was we had one of those goal zero. It's almost like a big car battery, right, and I forget the model or the make, whatever it is, but you can plug, you can plug your chargers right into that and they do a pretty good job. So we flew, when we flew into the airstrip, we took one of those with us and then we just kind of staged it there in the event that we needed to charge batteries.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, I walked around for most of that hunt. You know you got like 18 batteries in your backpack, right, which is kind of a pain, but but that's the, that's honestly the most sure way that I, I guess I've found to like make sure that you have the batteries. And then even doing that you're you're kind of juggling when you're out there trying to, trying to keep track mentally of like, well, how many batteries have I gone through and how many do I have left? And you know you wind up filming things because there's a lot of time on those hunts, right, and it's daylight for so long. There's a lot of things you could film that probably wouldn't make it into the film at the end of the day. So I think recognizing what's important to the story and being able to shoot that stuff and then also being able to let other stuff go and not shoot it and save batteries, which is honestly it's a continual learning curve too For me.
Speaker 1:I always find in the first maybe two days of a hunt like that, I'm shooting way too much and you're burning through batteries and you're like, holy crap, how am I going to make it? You know, the next eight days with the batteries that I brought. But that's a learning experience. And then usually by day three, four or five, I'm kind of like, okay, you can kind of mellow out and and kind of just shoot what you need to shoot.
Speaker 1:But too, it's, it's tough, it's cold and if it's cold, a lot of times what it all do is try to keep those batteries next to skin or at least at least close to a heat source, right, and I know guys that use hand warmers and things like that. If it's really cold out, to keep those things warm in your pack or keep them warm in your pocket and usually they'll do that same thing I'll throw a handful of batteries in my pocket and bury the other ones in my pack and wrap them in a down layer and things like that and you kind of get what you get. But at the end of the day I feel like if you can keep those batteries warm, they they seem to perform a lot better, at least for the Sonys and things like that, that that I've always shot on.
Speaker 2:Why are you team Sony?
Speaker 1:I used to be. I'm still torn about this. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not convinced that any anything is better nowadays. Right, I, I'm really. I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that it's like buying a pickup Some guys like Ford, some guys like Chevys, whatever. They're all great trucks and they're all great cameras.
Speaker 1:I became a Sony guy, oh, maybe four years ago or something like that, and that was pretty much strictly because I started filming instead of just doing still photography stuff. When I was doing still photography stuff, I did shoot Nikon and I loved it. I had a D850 and an A10 and I love those things and they were huge and whatever, but I love shooting them and they felt they were ergonomic, they felt nice in the hand. And then when I started shooting more video stuff, it was kind of in that period where everything started to go mirrorless. I don't want to say I was forced to transition, but I felt like I felt like it made the most sense to change the sony stuff just because the video capability was at the time better and I haven't really kept up on nikon stuff as well as I should have. It's probably all about equal now.
Speaker 2:yeah, I did it kind of out of necessity when I started filming a lot yeah man and I'm not a professional, for for me, like, just having the ability to navigate the settings and stuff, like that's, that's huge. So as long as you can learn that, great Right. And then the lens is so important. Kevin Harlander was talking about getting a different camera and I was like, please, just get a Sony full frame something. And he's like, well, I kind of want a Leica. It's like, bro, I've got all these lenses, like let's just get on the same page and then you know we're not going to be jamming each other up, like we can, you know, use each other for lens rentals and just be so much happier.
Speaker 2:I do think that it's a ford chevy debate a lot of times and uh, and that they all do a really good job. I have a sony a72 and when I got it it was the b's and e's man, like it was the the fastest kid on the track, and I just shot, uh, matt harding's um brand new sony alpha freaking, whatever it is now, and I was lost.
Speaker 1:Man, I can't navigate it like they move stuff around.
Speaker 2:It's got features I don't know, and they're. They've all got goofy names, damn it I waited long technology outran me.
Speaker 1:Now you're stuck in the stone age back there.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just kidding I, yeah, the technology moves so fast that I I don't know the new. The new menu system I like a lot more than the old one, but I've kind of found a body that I like and I've. I just bought another one and I'm like I'm gonna stick with this for a little bit, um, because it's not broken, and I'm sure next year I'll come out with a new one, but the changes are so minute I feel like, man, you're almost better off just sticking with what you know and realizing that it's not, it's not necessarily the camera, right, they all shoot great stuff but besides brand, what are some features that people should look at if they're getting into more of a professional grade or a high amateur grade camera?
Speaker 2:For me, I think that stabilization is big right. The range finding and the audio focus are both really important to me. What are some things that come up for? You are?
Speaker 1:both really important to me. What are some things that come up for you? I get that question sometimes. You know, from from people that that want to start shooting, or they they kind of buy a kit camera, right, so you know it comes with an 18 to 55 or a 55 to 300 or whatever that lens is, um, or maybe it's both of those.
Speaker 1:I think the the quickest way to, uh, in my opinion, kind of improve image quality and things like that from a gear standpoint is, instead of spending money on bodies necessarily, is to spend money on glass.
Speaker 1:Glass can make such a big difference, kind of, in the final product, right, that you're going to notice it.
Speaker 1:You're going to put on a new piece of glass and I like, I really do like to shoot primes as much as I can.
Speaker 1:I shoot a lot of 35 millimeter and 50 and 85 and things like that. I really like those lenses and I just I think that that and and and you know, really like, in the big scheme of things, they're not that expensive, you know, compared to, even compared to some of these zoom lenses like the new 24 to 70 and things like that, man, you and and if you don't want to spend that much money, you can find a cheap 50 millimeter. You know everybody makes one and almost all of them are pretty darn good f2 or things like that, or even lower f1 and 14 and and um, I think they're awesome. I. I think that's the from a gear standpoint. I think glasses is just probably the most important in my opinion, a thing that can kind of change the change, the quality of what you're putting out or change the look of it, you know and I I see the same thing bleeding into the other side of the lens being being the shooter man.
Speaker 2:If I had a client show up with a used ruger american rifle and and a loophole mark 5 on it be like oh yeah we're gonna go kill something, you know yeah, but if it was, if it was the other way around and it was some high dollar rifle that had a tasco on it, I'd be like what are you doing?
Speaker 2:for sure, but we're very visual people. If you were to take away one of my senses that would affect my life the most. It would for sure be my vision, and it's not even that close of a race.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If we can use something to improve that, that is always going to show a massive, massive benefit. And I can even take this into archery for the archery only guys, you can show up with a cheap bow and a really nice you know spot hog or whatever side on it and I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be so pumped about that yep right because your visual interface is the most important thing yep, yep, I definitely agree, and I think those ruger americans are pretty darn good nowadays for $1,350.
Speaker 2:They are Dude.
Speaker 2:It's so amazing and frustrating and I kind of love getting to be alive during this time of rifles, because I got to grow up during a time period where in the 90s if you wanted a rifle that was going to shoot one inch just one inch you needed to probably spend about twenty five hundred dollars on it in 90s money and then you had to reload.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and today you can buy an injection molded plastic stock that looks like somebody picked it out of a machine with like the claw thing for a quarter and you know they just slapped the the cheapest metal that they possibly could in it and you go down to the hardware store and you buy a box of factory ammo and go out to the range and it's probably gonna shoot pretty close to an inch right now for a three-shot group. It is amazing that we got to live during both of those times. I I love it so much. Uh, I do have some frustrations because I've got some of those guns that I spent a boatload of money on back in the day and now they're getting beat by these cheap savages and rugers and stuff. But the used ones are free Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, seriously, if you want something that you can just go start shooting I mean, god, I think they're like 350 bucks or 400 bucks down at the yeah, down at the ace hardware you go buy one, yeah, and you're, you're good to go spend your money on an optic and and that thing's gonna shoot yeah, pretty, pretty incredible triggers.
Speaker 2:I mean you remember what like factory triggers were like in the 90s. It was a workout, it was crunchy. Each of them had a personality. It felt like there was gravel rolling around in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the times have definitely changed, man, that is for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's funny.
Speaker 2:What's? What's your bucket list?
Speaker 1:hunt to film, yeah honestly, I think the one of them that comes to mind is is one that I probably shouldn't talk about too awful much, but it's a. It's a sheep hunt this year. It's it's I'll probably be a little bit vague here, which would be really annoying, but uh, it's going on this fall actually, and it's a guy that I really uh respect kind of as a mentor and and just as a good model for you know what somebody in the hunting industry might be like, and it's, it's his dream hunt, uh, that he has pinched pennies and and kind of made a reality over the years. It's going to be a sheep hunt and and it's something that he is super passionate about, and I just man, I I'm really looking forward to that.
Speaker 1:I think years ago, when I got into it, I wanted to do stuff like that. That meant a lot to him. It'll mean a lot to him, right, and I'm excited about it because I know he's excited about it. I'm just really looking forward to that one. I think it's been a lot of years in the making for him and I'm really looking forward to it. I think that will be a blast. Yeah, that's a terribly vague answer, but I'll probably tell you more about it here this time next year, I think.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:We'll keep our eyes open.
Speaker 2:Maybe we can do a follow-up. Sure, sure, yeah. What's a situation you've been in that you felt like you were just absolutely struggling and and not doing well, and what did you learn from it?
Speaker 1:There's been a lot of them over the years. I I do you mean, I guess, do you mean in the, in the camera space, or do you mean just in in in a life space in general? What's what? What makes more sense to you there? Uh, no, within the camera space. What? What makes more sense to you there? Uh, no, within the camera space?
Speaker 1:Man, for me, I think I have, I have many times kind of felt like I was out of my element. Um, just because I kind of moved into, you know, I started in in strictly the hunting space growing up, you know, that was kind of like my childhood dream and that's what I wanted to do and kind of through hunting I think, fell in love with actually just photography and not necessarily around the hunting space and so getting involved in more of the specific I've been shooting for the last several years, you know, and it might be lame to look at. I understand that it's like more simple setup product photography and that, to me, has been and I'm still, you know, still learning it. It's, it's entirely been something I've had to try to teach myself and understand, because it's almost the opposite of. It's almost the opposite of what you're doing when you're out hunting, right. And so that to me has been difficult to difficult to learn and difficult to try to improve on.
Speaker 1:And man, the first year or two, I think, doing it I didn't understand.
Speaker 1:I didn't understand how to set a scene, how to make something look, look the way that that the client needed it to look right. Because I wasn't used to setting a scene, I wasn't used to producing something like that or or telling somebody to look this way or look that way or or move this thing just a couple inches over. Here I was. I was much more used to just shooting things naturally, kind of as they happen, and so learning that has been great and and now I feel a lot better about it. And but, man, for me, the first, the first year that I did that, I was like I didn't grasp. I did not grasp how to stage a scene in a way that would come across the way the client wanted it to, if that makes sense. So doing all that stage stuff was was probably the biggest, one of the biggest challenges that I kind of faced when I started doing just more of the simple product photography, if that makes sense, or lifestyle photography in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, With those product shots. If I have the ability to manipulate light, I will fuss with that forever.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:And when I set up my studio to do a product review or something like that, I've spent multiple days getting the light right before I start that stuff. I'm a huge nerd about audio because, more than anything, I'm a podcaster which is a strange thing to say out loud, but it's an audio experience which is a strange thing to say out loud, but it's an audio experience. But when I add that video element to it, I want that light to be so perfect. And when it is perfect, oh my gosh, it's amazing. Right, it's amazing when you get the light right.
Speaker 1:For sure, and it is satisfying to see man, I think in the first year that I did that like so much of the shit that I shot just went unused, right, and you never saw it again. And I try to pay attention to that stuff and I'm like man, they never use this or they never use that. And so I was constantly, and I still am. I I love feedback. I think I don't take any of that shit personally. I think it's it's business, right, and I'm. I would much rather have somebody that's dissatisfied with the product say, hey, I'm dissatisfied with this and like here's why. Well then, you know, right. I mean like I can, okay, so now I can fix it next time, instead of them ghosting you or you never seeing it. And I'm saying that it was great and internally they didn't like it right For this reason or that reason. I think asking for feedback is like I love it, and anytime somebody can give me feedback, I appreciate it. I do love it.
Speaker 2:I'm the same way and it it does feel personal, but it's not right. And it feels personal because you're passionate about what you're doing and you're putting all of your effort into making it right. And and when you do that and somebody says you know what this could have been better, it feels, like, oh, I wasn't good enough, but that's not it, that's not it.
Speaker 2:Whenever I ask people for feedback on something and they say that's great, looks good, I feel offended by that. I feel insulted that that they don't care enough to tell me what could be better, because I can.
Speaker 2:I can see room for improvement in anything, or that they don't care enough to tell me what could be better, because I can see room for improvement in anything, sure. Or that they don't have enough confidence in our relationship that they could feel comfortable giving me negative feedback Sure, which is another thing. That's like, oh well, I need to work on this. I need to improve this relationship so that they feel like they can tell me you know, this is where this needs to get better. When you've got buddies that are so confident that they can skip the compliment sandwich phase, right right, you're like hey, your hair looks good today.
Speaker 1:Your finger was in front of the lens. This is shit. Yeah, yes, I definitely agree. I love it, I think, and having that relationship too, like you said, is so important. People don't want to hurt your feelings and they don't want to whatever. They don't want to piss you off and maybe some people do get pissed off about things like that. Then I think it's always a work in progress to try to realize that like it's business, right, it's not, it's not personal and they don't not like you anymore, or maybe they don't even know you enough to like you Right. But if they can just give you constructive criticism, that helps you improve in the long run, I just I find that super valuable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then on. On the other side of this for you know the folks listening to this who you know might want to become more involved in the hunting industry, or they already are there's lots of brands out there that are willing to give you product or pay you money just to be their cheerleader. I have really advocate for avoiding those brands. Ultimately, that relationship is not going to work out. If they can take your respectful, constructive feedback whether they use it or not has nothing to do with you but if they'll at least listen to you and then provide the same back to you, then you can really develop a relationship with that brand and that company and things are going to go very well. If they're just hiring you to be a cheerleader, ultimately that's not going to work out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I think that's always a fine line. You know it's a hard conversation too for for people that I think for people that want to get into the space doing, you know, shooting, shooting things for a living, whether it's stills or video stuff I think a lot of people, at least in the hunting space, do it because they love hunting. First, right, um or at least for me that was the case and then you kind of maybe fall in love with with the photo, video side of things and you you want to work in the space so bad and I've been there and I definitely was there that you do almost anything to get a job right, like you would yep, I'll shoot, I'll shoot whatever for, like a jacket or or you know, it doesn't matter it's, it's.
Speaker 1:it's such a hard one and I people ask me that question I I struggle with it still because I'm I'm not going to sit here and say that I never shot stuff. You know, when I was 20, for that, I never shot stuff and traded it for product or never.
Speaker 2:you know things like that because I did well, I wouldn't be bringing it up if I didn't do it too you know this isn't like oh, this buddy of mine made this mistake you're sure I made this mistake right and I don't want you all to do it too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and same here. Man, such a difficult conversation because you want it so bad and kind of to your point. I think if you get involved in a relationship like that, I think it can be hard for that brand or that company, whatever it is, to once you're in that space where you're, where you're willing to trade goods for, for assets, you know it's hard to break out of that and it's hard to turn that into a paid relationship unless the shit you're putting out has changed drastically, which is kind of the point right. Hopefully you know when you're. If you're doing that, it's in the beginning and you're trying to grow and get better. And you know when you're. If you're doing that, it's in the beginning and you're trying to grow and get better, and but I think that can be a tough relationship to break um into a profitable one If that's where you have kind of concreted yourself into trading things, yeah.
Speaker 2:But I would rather have an an introductory relationship where I was working for free and working for than working for product, because you can transition out of that. But once, working for product because you can transition out of that, but once. Once a brand has seen that you're willing to do the job for a jacket, then they're not going to pay you more than a jacket. Sure, and you know it's a competitive space too. There's a bunch of guys coming up behind you that that are willing to do the job for less. So you either need to be able to do a substantially better job than them or you're going to get run over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a that's a really good point too. I mean, I've had this conversation with a bunch of my friends that are kind of in the space and we've gone back and forth on it and it is hard, right, because if you're a young guy and some brand hits you up about shooting something you know for product, it's hard to say no because you know that there's probably four or five more people behind you in line that are probably going to say yes and then they're going to start to forge a relationship with that brand, and whether that's the relationship you wanted or not, who knows. But yeah, that's a tough one. I I don't know. I kind of always just tell people to do whatever they think is right but don't, and it's hard to, especially for people that are creative. I feel like to know how to value the things that they're putting out right, or to value their work.
Speaker 2:Ask somebody else for that that's what I do, like I understand the portion of the role that I'm good at, but when it comes to trying to to figure out how much an instagram post is worth, like good grief, I don't know that. But I know the people that do so. Ask them. As you develop those relationships and make sure that they're mutually beneficial for that person that you're asking, because you know they have valuable knowledge and they're providing it to you, so return that in kind and that that's where you can really really start showing gains. And you know, for folks listening right now, this is a more candid and honest conversation about what goes on behind the curtains than maybe you've ever heard before. You know it's a little bit taboo to talk about this stuff. I don't care. I think that it's really important that people understand what it looks like on both sides of the lens, what it looks like on both sides of the trigger.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, I agree, and I, in starting out, did exact, yeah, exactly Like you said. Man, I had so much help from so many people that were further along the journey than I was, that were gracious enough to answer my questions and kind of help me out and give me direction, and man like I, without that, and I still have people like that, you know, that are that are light years ahead of me where I'm at and I and I think man not being afraid to like reach out and ask, ask a question and and hope you know, and hopefully you have the relationship with that person. You guys can talk like that and they're fine answering those questions, but I think it's so valuable because, man, how else would you know For me being a, being an idiot kid, I you know that grew up in Eastern Oregon and worked for the Forest Service. I didn't know anything about it and fortunately, like I said, I had a couple of great people that took me under their wing and kind of steered me in the right direction, which I'm really grateful for.
Speaker 2:And, of course, my experience has been much the same. Right, I just grew up on the other side of the same mountains that we both grew up looking at. I fought fire for the Forest Service going through college. We took a really similar path to end up in relatively similar fields. It's so fortunate, and it has been through a lot of trial and error and a lot of support from people who knew better than I did. Sure. Two remaining questions, sir. Sure, what is your favorite back country snack to put in your pack? Like, if you're rummaging around in the lid of your pack and you see something in a crinkly wrapper, what, what gets you going?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. Lately I have been this is probably in the last couple of years I'm a huge, it's not necessarily in a crinkly wrapper last couple of years. I'm a huge it's not necessarily in a crinkly wrapper, I suppose but I'm a huge fan of dates and peanut butter. I just think I love it. It's so good I like I'll eat at my house sometimes if I have some left over from a hunt, right they're a little bit like a Snickers yeah, oh yeah, 100% and and 70%, and they're wicked, chlorically dense too.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, yeah, yeah, and some dates and peanut butter and uh, I love it. It's like a little peanut butter jelly sandwich but and it kind of feels like you're eating real food. Yeah, uh, because you almost are. But yeah, dried dates and peanut butter, man, that's, that's been my recent go-to.
Speaker 2:Nice, that's so wholesome of you, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not wholesome of me when I'm eating them at my house at nine o'clock at night.
Speaker 2:Okay, last question what advice would you give to your younger self if you could? Uh, if you could send 18 year old sam a text message. What would you put in it?
Speaker 1:this is gonna sound super cliche, um, probably, and a little bit lame, but man, don't give up on it. I think, if you, if there's something that you believe in. I grew up watching the outdoor channel, as I'm sure you did, and, like you know, at that age I wanted to film hunts for the outdoor channel, right, because that was kind of the only thing that I saw. And kind of, as the years went by, you know that was my dream job. That's what I really wanted to do and as my years, as the years went, I think my opinion on that kind of developed.
Speaker 1:When I started to see people shooting, people shooting photos of hunting and in the hunting space and making a living doing it, that was that was like a mind blowing moment for me and, and I think just anybody that's in that position, that's a kid and they want to start shooting and things like that. Man, like, get a camera that you can afford and that you're going to have with you all the time and shoot the shit out of that thing. Go, shoot as much as you can and as often as possible, and you're going to get better, and that's and and and don't give up on it. I think, man, it might take years and years, but if you really want to do that and you really believe in it, um man, don't give up. There's, there's, there's so much space left in the industry, I think, for people that that are good at what they do. But also, you know, I think the most important part of that equation is I always tell people this don't be an asshole, like.
Speaker 1:Rule number one is is for me is don't be an asshole and try to be an asset, right, and be somebody that people would like to take on a 12 day sheep hunt or a or a 10 day hunt somewhere, whatever, whatever it is right. Be somebody that they would like to spend time in the woods with, um, and do your part and pull your weight and and don't, don't quit on it, don't quit on yourself. I think, yeah, that's, that's probably a little bit cliche, but I think it is true and, or or at least I felt like it was true for me, or at least for me. There's tons of times when you were like this is a pipe dream, right, and I'll probably have to get a real job and be a real person, but I guess in the meantime I'll keep trying and uh, and, and sometimes it works out right, um, so, yeah, I think, anybody out there that wants to do it.
Speaker 1:Sure it's saturated, but you can do it. And and yeah, don't quit on yourself, don't give up on it yeah, there's always room at the top Um and it's, it's a hundred percent true, man.
Speaker 2:If, if you don't give up at anything, you just might make it right. Right, if you do give up, you definitely won't.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's a hundred percent true, man, it's like my parents always used to tell me when I was a kid man. It was like they always used to say the squeaky wheel gets the grease Right and and uh, I think that proves true kind of over time. Um, yeah, if you don't put on yourself and you keep, and you keep trying to get better and you keep trying to improve and you you try your best to do what you said you were going to do when you were going to do it, I think you'll get there. It just and I think that applies to all things right, not just, not just photography or the hunting space or whatever it is but, um, it was probably a good life principle too in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:I think so. Where can people follow your work Um?
Speaker 1:man, yeah, um, instagram I don don't. I don't post a whole lot on there, but I do put up some work occasionally, um, and that's just that's just my name, sam avert at instagram. And then, um, I have a website too. That's just uh, sam avertcom, um, and, yeah, either of those places and then, um, probably see people maybe have seen uh, stuff for stuff for Stone Glacier that have shot kind of like the hunting films like you're talking about, and and other stuff like that. So that's kind of a good place to keep an eye on, um, and there's obviously a lot of other great, great guys that are shooting stuff for them too. But but, uh, yeah, keeping an eye on those things would would, if you're interested, would be probably the best chance to to see something. I'm not as good about putting new stuff out there as I should be, but, um, maybe I'll try to make a more concerted effort here in the back half of the year.
Speaker 2:Well, buddy, I think you're doing a great job. I sincerely mean that uh, it shows in your work and, yeah, you are an asset and I appreciate it, appreciate all the uh the advice that you gave to the people who are interested in in improving their own games. Um, coming from you know such a skilled professional with the accomplishments that you've had, and I I'm also confident that the? Uh the best has yet to come for you and I'm looking forward to seeing what comes from that.
Speaker 1:And I yeah, I really appreciate it. James, thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's a blast man, I really appreciate it. Hopefully that's not just all mumbo jumbo. Hopefully somebody maybe gets something out of that.
Speaker 2:But I appreciate it regardless. Somebody will, so thanks a lot, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, james.
Speaker 2:Bye everybody. I just want to take a second and thank everyone who's written a review, who has sent mail, who sent emails, who sent messages. Your support is incredible and I also love running into you at trade shows and events and just out on the hillside when we're hunting. I think that that's fantastic. I hope you guys keep adventuring as hard and as often as you can. Art for the Six Ranch Podcast was created by John Chatelain and was digitized by Celia Harlander. Original music was written and performed by Justin Hay, and the Six Ranch Podcast is now produced by Six Ranch Media is now produced by Six Ranch Media. Thank you all so much for your continued support of the show and I look forward to next week when we can bring you a brand new episode.