The Reload with Sean Hansen
Grace and Grit Steering Through Leadership Challenges - 201
Ever grappled with the weight of your professional identity overshadowing your personal life? You're not alone. My friend Nick Norris, an ex-Navy SEAL turned entrepreneur, joins me for an in-depth exploration of how leaders can maintain their core integrity amidst the pressures of high-performance roles. We're tackling the tough topics: setting boundaries, preventing burnout, and balancing personal connections with professional responsibilities.
Leadership isn't just about making tough calls; it's about fostering trust and navigating the intricate dynamics of human relationships. In this heart-to-heart, Nick and I reflect on the challenges of confronting disappointing behaviors without losing compassion and the delicate dance of managing emotions in decision-making. We share our personal experiences and insights, aiming to equip you with the tools to maintain authenticity as you scale the professional ladder.
When the stakes are high, how do you communicate with heart and intellect to reach equitable outcomes? In the throes of startup culture and high-intensity work environments, we unpack the art of conflict resolution and the importance of heartful communication. The stories and strategies we share in this episode are designed to guide you through the complexities of workplace dynamics and help you emerge as a leader who's respected for both their mind and their empathy. Join us for a conversation that promises to leave you with a deeper understanding of what it takes to navigate leadership with grace and grit.
Are you an executive, entrepreneur, or combat veteran looking to overcome subconscious blind spots and limiting messaging to unlock your highest performance? Feel free to reach out to Sean at Reload Coaching and Consulting.
Ever grappled with the weight of your professional identity overshadowing your personal life? You're not alone. My friend Nick Norris, an ex-Navy SEAL turned entrepreneur, joins me for an in-depth exploration of how leaders can maintain their core integrity amidst the pressures of high-performance roles. We're tackling the tough topics: setting boundaries, preventing burnout, and balancing personal connections with professional responsibilities.
Leadership isn't just about making tough calls; it's about fostering trust and navigating the intricate dynamics of human relationships. In this heart-to-heart, Nick and I reflect on the challenges of confronting disappointing behaviors without losing compassion and the delicate dance of managing emotions in decision-making. We share our personal experiences and insights, aiming to equip you with the tools to maintain authenticity as you scale the professional ladder.
When the stakes are high, how do you communicate with heart and intellect to reach equitable outcomes? In the throes of startup culture and high-intensity work environments, we unpack the art of conflict resolution and the importance of heartful communication. The stories and strategies we share in this episode are designed to guide you through the complexities of workplace dynamics and help you emerge as a leader who's respected for both their mind and their empathy. Join us for a conversation that promises to leave you with a deeper understanding of what it takes to navigate leadership with grace and grit.
Are you an executive, entrepreneur, or combat veteran looking to overcome subconscious blind spots and limiting messaging to unlock your highest performance? Feel free to reach out to Sean at Reload Coaching and Consulting.
Welcome to the Reload, where we help unconventional leaders craft the life they truly want by questioning the assumptions they have about how life works. My name is Sean and I'll be your host on this journey. As a performance coach and special operations combat veteran, I help high-performing executives kick ass in their careers while connecting with deeply powerful insights that fuel their lives. All right, folks, we are in for a treat today, because you are going to get to listen to some wisdom bombs from my very good friend, nick Norris, instead of just simply listening to me drone all the entire time. So part of the reason why I want to have Nick back on the show it's actually been four years since he was here. Originally he was on episode five, in case you are interested in listening to that.
Speaker 1:But, in full disclosure, nick and I are thinking about running some workshops and we thought well, you know, hey, if we're going to do this, we might want to put out some material that people can listen to that they think might be useful for them. And part of why Nick and I are pairing up with this is that Nick has started multiple businesses and, as I'm sure you're well aware, you know in terms of the stress that comes with starting up a business and then also getting it off the ground and keeping it running, you are, de facto, by necessity, going to run into a great deal of challenge, and, as a former Naval Special Warfare officer, navy SEAL, in case you guys don't know what that means Nick has had no shortage of challenge in his life, and so what better person to talk about this stuff than my very good friend.
Speaker 2:Nick Norris.
Speaker 1:Nick, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks, brother, I appreciate it. It has been a while since we did a podcast together, but I always enjoy connecting with you, so this will be fun and it's yet another opportunity to get together with my good buddy, sean.
Speaker 1:I know, I know I love it, you know, and so obviously we talked about this, you know, hashed out some bullet points the other day. Obviously, we talked about this, you know, hashed out some bullet points the other day and I thought, okay, why don just kind of how we navigate the various aspects of conflict? Right, and one of the things that we talked about when we first kind of started kicking this idea around was navigating professional and interpersonal, how to draw the line between those two boundaries, especially when you're an entrepreneur, boundaries, especially when you're an entrepreneur. You know, and I, and I think also you know, let me get your read on this, my read on modern business culture, whether it's a an entrepreneurial venture or whether it is a closely held business, or even if it's a publicly traded company, at least with the executives that I work with, I feel like, even in a publicly traded company, I feel like even in a publicly traded company, those senior leaders, they have a lot of their personal self wrapped up into the business.
Speaker 2:What's your take on that? Yeah, no, it definitely is something that happens, right, I mean, you start to identify part of you as what you do day to day, right, and that's something that you know. If we wanted to go back into kind of like military service, right, a lot of guys get wrapped up in in having that identity, um, deeply wrapped up in the work that you do, and it 100% is the scenario on the outside as well, right, in business. So you spend so much of your life working it and if you take it seriously, right, if you're an A type player, that is, that is, you know, in the C suite in a successful company, you know you're, you're spending so much time doing that. Yet, yeah, it would be ridiculous to think that you don't have a part of you wrapped up in in in that job as that being part of your personal identity. So I, yeah, I think it's 100% accurate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think also you know and obviously you and I have met plenty of individuals in our time in my case special operations, your case special warfare who you know, these individuals who are, oh, I don't know, a little bit intense and everything that they do is going to be, you know, max velocity, max intensity, maximum output, and I don't you know, I think that's one of the things that I've noticed, definitely on my side of the coin as far as the work that I do is helping people sort of taper that and knowing when to apply that, that tenacity, that intensity, so that they don't burn themselves out and so that they don't weave too much of sense of self into professional outcome.
Speaker 1:And so maybe this is a good segue for us to look at. How do people you know, what have you seen, what have you felt in your own journey? What did a wise friend tell you? I mean, you can draw on wherever you want to as far as sourcing, but what have you seen as far as being able to delineate between my personal self, my professional self, and sort of navigating back and forth between those things, especially in a work culture where technology has allowed the lines to blur considerably?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean something that comes to mind, you know, as we bring up this topic for me is actually exposing a weakness and, I think, a fault that I've run into since leaving the military and kind of venturing into the private sector. And I think that, you know, for me, I'm somebody, I'm an empath, I, you know, I like to treat, I like to work with friends right, I foster those personal, deep personal relationships and I did foster those deep personal relationships on active duty when I was running elements in combat and it worked really well. I mean having, you know, having that dynamic, that deep, those deep personal relationships in that environment worked well and still allowed me and our team to pursue you know the mission, you know the objective and work in a very professional manner to accomplish great things. And coming out of the military and going into the private sector, you know, a big tripping point for me is that I've continued. I mean I'm not going to change who I am, right, I like to foster deep personal relationships with the people I work with.
Speaker 2:I want to enjoy the company of the people that I work with and it doesn't always work well in my experience in the private sector to lean that heavily into kind of those personal relationships, because I think there's a difference. I think there's a difference. There's almost like a selfless mission that exists in the military whereas it's more of a this may sound off, but it's more of a selfish pursuit in the private sector. Right, people are typically working to better themselves, you know, from a financial standpoint or a career standpoint, um, or a recognition standpoint, and I think that it starts to have an impact, um, on your ability to execute at a high level. When, when sometimes those personal relationships are are getting in the way, right, or you, you have some type of uh conflict that surfaces. It makes it a little bit more difficult because you can't just put aside those personal feelings and be extremely professional, um, like, like my experience had been in the military.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so definitely my time in corporate. I would say that I saw a lot of what you just described and I have a natural curiosity that I think rises when we start to incorporate the notion of the B Corp, for instance in the United States and they're likely similar corporate structures in other countries. What wrinkle do you think that that creates? Right, because obviously the purpose of a B Corp is to have social welfare not welfare but social well-being woven into the corporate charter, and I don't have any personal experience with B Corps, not from an employment perspective and not from a coaching perspective either. Do you think there are any wrinkles when it comes to that assessment that people are more interested in kind of that self-development, self-improvement, self-gain element when they're working for a B Corp?
Speaker 2:a very deep selection process, some type of barrier to entry, you know, going into that type of an organization, whether it be a for-profit or a nonprofit or you know, kind of the hybrid beat. I think that you're going to run into the issues that we alluded to. You're going to run into people that claim to be in the job or pursuing that job for a very selfless reason, but might not be truly committed to that right. They like the concept of it but they're still going to be looking out for number one and, you know, maybe carrying themselves in a way that isn't quite in line with a selfless mission mission. You know that, that you know when you look at a b corp right, you, you know that's, that's the, the purpose behind it yeah, is to have a very selfless mission and and to do good in the world and I'm not saying that those organizations don't by any means.
Speaker 2:But I think you still run into problems. You're not going to get a bunch of altruistic people that just magically appear. I think that the endemic problem is the inability to appropriately select those individuals that will align with that type of a mission and will pursue things in a more selfless manner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that element of selection, I think when, as soon as I heard that word selection, it was just kind of like, or filter, you know so much of that, I think, is true.
Speaker 1:I saw a lot of that because most of my combat experiences were in as as it attached to a conventional unit and there's no bust on conventional units.
Speaker 1:But I feel like there's inherent logic in this notion that, okay, if we have a smaller population and if the individuals who end up on the other end of a filter process, especially a more robust filtration process, you're going to have greater homogeneity, I think, in terms of like, why people are there, what they're willing to commit to, what is the level of intensity that they're willing to engage in, and so on and so forth. Right, because it's, you know, the law of large numbers. Right, the bigger the group is, the harder it's going to be to ensure that everybody's on the same page. You're going to have way more diversity and obviously I think there's definitely a time and a place for diversity. However, there is also, I think, when it comes to, I don't know, that commonality of purpose that we were just talking about. It seems to be much more accessible when you're operating in smaller groups and especially the groups that have been filtered pretty heavily.
Speaker 2:I totally agree, right, it's much easier to to kind of cull the herd and select people you know for a very small group and keep that group on target and on task than it is to try to do that with a large organization. And I think that's a massive challenge, right. Those companies that are successful, growing to these massive sizes and still maintain that homogeny and kind of focused effort in like strong culture I mean hats off like takes tremendous amount of structure and thoughtful leadership. And, you know, I think part of it too is like, if you're going to achieve something like that, a team that is that focused, you can't be afraid to continue the selection process. Like in the outside world you don't get the opportunity to send somebody through a rigorous selection.
Speaker 2:You know, not necessarily right, I know there's various forms of selection in the corporate world, but you do have control of is.
Speaker 2:You can continually be selective and critical, and I guess you don't want to ever just get complacent and say, well, hey, this person has been a great committed team member in the past, right, or they've been a great committed partner that was very loyal or very hardworking, and because of that I'm going to give them a pass on things in the future if they start to stumble in that effort waivers or that commitment waivers and I think that that's something that's a lesson that you know, I've, I've learned over the last, you know, several years is, you know, having to step up and say you know what the relationship or the whether that relationship is personal or professional but that relationship has started to fall apart or weaken or maybe not be as optimal as it was in the past.
Speaker 2:And there's nothing wrong with taking pause and kind of reselecting and making tough decisions to either obviously always giving people the opportunity to kind of correct behavior or change, but, you know, be able to take time and make tough decisions to, you know phase those relationships out of your life or out of your organization.
Speaker 1:Since getting out of the military, you have either been I mean, you've been a principal, whether a direct founder or, you know, senior leadership member of a handful of different companies and of different varieties as well, which is really interesting to see. So you've gotten to see different market sectors and you know, and different dynamics in terms of, okay, how do we manage this ongoing relationship? Personal relationships mixed in the business world has, in certain instances, maybe not led to the the best outcomes. And now thinking about, okay, how do we maintain a high standard for the team, the business, the business unit, whatever you know, people can make this their own based on their own experience. But how do we maintain this high standard of performance while still also having an atmosphere of trust?
Speaker 1:Number of leaders, including CEOs and board members, who are deeply concerned about hey, how do we have an atmosphere of trust while still maintaining high standards? And it's a pretty thorny issue, right, because, on the one hand, we do want people to feel like, hey, if you're not 100% all the time, that's okay, because it's human right. Nobody's going to show up 100% 100% of the time. However, or maybe this is not a but, but more of an and statement. The inquiry, then, is around yeah, okay, well, well, how do we keep that kind of that trust, that safety, while still ensuring that the standard stays high? So what have you? Maybe let's start with the the downside, if you have an example of the way it's gone off track yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:So again, it definitely is interwoven with the personal, or my, my affinity for personal relationships, deep personal relationships in the workplace. Um, I think the standard in order to maintain high performance is that you do not allow a breach of trust. If, if somebody breaches your trust, it's, it's I hate, I hate to say it's unforgivable, but it's a major infraction. It's something that necessitates immediate action, immediate corrective measures and in a lot of situations it kind of flags a need to move on from that relationship. To move on from that relationship. And I think where I have I've I've stumbled in this regard is that I've allowed my, my affinity for deep personal relationships in the workplace to basically cloud my judgment or my ability to take action, to sever relationships where there had been a breach of trust. Because I want to you know, I, I, I don't treat my friends and family that way, right, I want to, I want to see the best in them, I want to be able to, um, figure out a way to get past a breach of trust. But, you know, I think I, I, I have seen that kind of go too far and it is stymieing my ability to take action as a leader, and I think the reason I was kind of maybe lulled into that complacency in some regard is because in my former life as a leader in special operations it's rare to see a breach of trust.
Speaker 2:It just doesn't happen very often because we select so rigorously up front with these teams and it almost makes it easier to be a leader because you can go deep, you can have deep personal relationships and you should in that environment because there's just such high trust and I want to go, or I've wanted to go, you know, to that extreme and everything that I've done in my pursuits outside of the military.
Speaker 2:It is definitely um, it's, it's definitely bit me in the past because I've I've been unwilling to take kind of that evasive action when you know a either and when any breach of trust has happened, because I'm not saying that I've had like these massive breaches of trust and then immediately didn't do anything about it. I think if it was a massive, like very uh, blatant breach of trust, it'd be easier to take action, but it was more of a pattern or patterns of behavior that were more minor breaches of trust that I was, I was willing to look past because I didn't really even see him. I think I was blind to them and it it kind of clouded my ability to take action yeah, so there's this element of kind of trust.
Speaker 2:But verify, and I think I never had to verify before showing that's right, like the trust, but verify, like I know that is actually like a military mantra right in the in, let's say the general military, outside of special operations. That's like an early lesson in leadership. I just never had to do that. I think I was spoiled in that regard. I never had to check because people just did what they were supposed to do. There was deep pride in their work and commitment to the mission and the selection was so rigorous that you know the people that wouldn't do what they were going to say or they said they were going to do, were deselected so early on that it made it easy as a leader.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see the same basic blueprint, I guess, with my startup clients, especially when they are either in well seed stage it's only two or three of them but you know, once they get there sort of a round of funding and be round of funding I still sense a lot of the individuals that are recruited to their organization are in it for the mission they're. They are in it for the mission, they're in it for the grind. You know, they know what they're getting into as far as workload and things like that and everybody's pulling. And it's from what I've observed.
Speaker 1:You know, and certainly this is not across the board, but generally what I have observed is once you start getting into the kind of the C and D rounds of funding, depending on how those assets are being distributed, sometimes there's a bit of bloat that starts to happen. And you know, and people are not as tuned in, I guess, to the mission and you don't have people that are, you know you're starting to get individuals that were not there at the inception of the idea. They don't have the same exact sense of ownership that came with the founding group. But suffice it to say I think in that startup culture there is a lot that mirrors what we experienced in the special operations slash special warfare world. And you know, when we think about what is it that holds leaders back from either a observing some of these rather benign breaches of trust or potentially more extreme breaches of trust, but then also still not doing anything about it?
Speaker 2:What do you think holds people back? I mean, I think, if you're comparing it to that startup world, I mean I do think there's a lot of congruency between that and kind of small unit, military type leadership, because you know you're in the grind, you're in the trenches with those people that you're working with and there's really nothing. There's kind of, I mean, there's everything to lose but there's also nothing to fight over either. At that point right, because like you haven't done anything yet, you're you're kind of trying to prove yourself day in, day out. And you know, I think I I think it's like when you're in that environment initially it's hard to kind of pull yourself out and start to see some of these.
Speaker 2:You know kind of chinks in the armor later on, like you know minor breaches of trust or behaviors that just aren't in line with mission, because you've been kind of you've been lulled into complacency to just trust that people are going to do the right thing, because you have to right, you got to build this thing, you got to prove yourself to the rest of the world. And I think you're accurate in saying, once money starts to come into the company and you don't have this issue with the military right. Um, you, you had. Now you have something to fight over or you have something to feel resentment over, um, amongst you, and you know your teammates and I think that the dynamic of, of kind of compensation or recognition, uh, starts to really take hold and, you know, leads to problems and causes dynamics that are much, I think, much more difficult to deal with and to identify.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think something in there also sparked this notion of I think we want to believe in a trusting world.
Speaker 1:Maybe not everybody Clearly I'm not God and I don't speak for everybody but I have a sense that throughout the various chapters of my life and living in different parts of the world, I can attest to the fact, at least from my own personal perspective, that most of the people that I've encountered have wanted to believe in a trusting world. You know that when someone tells you they're going to do something, that they're actually going to do it. And if they don't do it, you know I mean sure there could be all kinds of reasons for it, you know, and some of them probably very benign and well-intentioned. But ultimately, I think, especially when we look in business culture, you know where is it that we're actually trying to accomplish a certain objective or set of objectives, or a mission, or however you want to call it? You know, I think one of the things that holds leaders back from, I don't know, scrutinizing some of those trust but verify moments, is that we want to believe.
Speaker 1:You know we don't we don't want to turn the lights on and see the cockroaches flying everywhere. You know, I mean not that your business place has cockroaches, and you know, just just metaphorical. But you know I also wonder what's that?
Speaker 2:you're dealing with, yeah, and you don't want to be disappointed, right, like you're forced to deal with disappointment and and yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I think a common trait amongst you know, successful leaders, corporate or or kind of military is that they're they're optimistic, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're altruistic.
Speaker 2:They, they, they love to see things in a utopian light and believe that everything, everybody is fully committed and they're going to do the right thing, and they all have sound principles and ethics. But it's just, it's just not the case all the time. And and uh, and it's tough to it, it's tough to to come to that realization, be confronted with the reality that maybe not everybody is is doing the right thing, uh, or somebody that you know you want to be, continue to be a teammate of, and yeah, there I think there's there's fear of of being disappointed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that that fear of being disappointed, yeah, and I think that that disappointment at least from what clients have told me that disappointment cuts both ways, because sometimes there's a fear that they're not a good enough leader For sure. That, oh, maybe this is. You know, this is my fault, my fault, you know, I didn't communicate clearly, and that's the way we're trained, sean.
Speaker 2:I mean, I didn't communicate clearly, or there's, and that's the way we're trained, sean I mean in the military you're trained to hold yourself accountable, right You're?
Speaker 1:Extreme ownership.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's your job as a leader to help those people that you're charged with leading and to help your teammates along. And to help your teammates along. And if you're not, if somebody's failing, it's highly likely that there's something that you could do to remedy that situation to a certain point. And I think it's that line of demarcation that we're trying to identify here today is when is it okay to cut somebody loose? And it makes it especially difficult when you've really fostered a deep personal relationship with that individual yeah.
Speaker 2:In a professional setting yeah and being able to step up and say you know what this is. I mean, not everybody's going to be mature enough to say, yeah, you know, we're going to continue our personal relationship, even after you've taken evasive action and decisive action to to sever the professional relationship. And that's where I've struggled. I mean I'll I'll call it out Like it's, it's. It's definitely difficult for me to navigate those waters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is a good segue, because this kind of bumps us into the next section of what we're planning on talking about, right, this idea of how do we keep conflict that's happening in the workplace from spilling over into our other relationships and, you know, thereby tainting, you know, potentially with sort of negative energy, the other relationships that we have. But then also, and perhaps I don't know, equally important, I guess, how do we avoid becoming heartless or callous when we are in, when we have recognized that, okay, yeah, there's been a breach and we're not going to look the other way anymore or conveniently not see what's going on. We are actually going to start to deal with this. How do we avoid becoming heartless and callous? Right? So it's really this, I think, fundamentally this line between compassion and action in relationship to the conflicts that we're facing. So maybe I don't know where do you want to start?
Speaker 2:Do you want to start in the spilling over? And maybe I don't know where do you want to start. Do you want to start in the spilling over? Yeah, I'm already kind of thinking about this. I mean it's very relevant in my life.
Speaker 2:I think a lot about this um recognize, finally recognizing and then taking action to decompartmentalize myself, because I was very compartmentalized, uh, in in the seal teams. I mean that's that's actually why I think I was and other people that were in that um environment were so successful is because they had an innate ability to compartmentalize emotion and take decisive action and make good decisions and allow them to deal with stress in a very effective manner. And then, on the outside, you know, I saw that compartmentalized uh emotion wreak havoc in my personal life because I just was apathetic, I, I wasn't, uh, I didn't empathize with people, I didn't feel emotion and, um, I think there is a component of compartmentalization that lends itself very well to the scenario that we're discussing today. Yeah, I think you need to pull emotion out of it and you know, I've just started to kind of embrace emotion and now I'm saying like, well, in these situations you kind of have to pull back a little bit and you have to remove the emotion from these super-charged situations where there's personal and professional at play and you have conflict that you're trying to resolve.
Speaker 2:And I think maybe a tool that I have I haven't leaned on enough is bringing an outside perspective into the situation.
Speaker 2:So pulling back emotionally to a certain degree right, but not being like super callous like it allows you to kind of retain some emotion um the situation. If you're able to bring a neutral, maybe expert third party or a number of expert third parties into the mix to kind of shed you know who don't have an emotional investment in the in the situation, that can shed some light, like in a very pragmatic and objective sense, to the situation at hand and hopefully allow both people that are having the conflict to be able to see, you know, this outside opinion from a professional that's not involved emotionally and say, okay, you know what that does, um, and I think that that can happen as long as you don't have, you know, people that are, I mean, if the conflict hasn't but it has isn't so far gone, that emotion is just flouting both individuals judgment completely. I think that that that strategy is actually pretty effective and it's one that I'm trying to employ more in my life.
Speaker 1:Where is the appropriate time and place for emotion and what level of emotion? And then, how do we bring in trusted advisors, trusted professionals that can help us work through some of the clouding that comes from emotion? So when I work with clients, one of the key conversation topics is head, heart and guts, and really all that's all that saying is cognition, emotion and instinct or intuition, and these are sort of three primary systems or or avenues for interacting with one's world, and I have them kind of list out. What are the pros and cons of each system or pathway, you know.
Speaker 1:So cognition, it's analytical, it can get bogged down with analysis, paralysis, like we're always just seeking for more data. It feels very objective, which is funny because I use the word feel right. But but you know, a lot of times when we're, when we're in our intellect, we think, we believe that we are making sound decisions because it's evidence-based or it's it's data-based. And what's interesting though, and since you and I have both been in uh, you know, been on retreats where they've used kind of I don't know unconventional methodologies to kind of help break people open and get them snapped out of whatever trauma cycles they've been in, and for you and I, it's combat PTSD and you know smattering of other stuff.
Speaker 1:But what's interesting is when people come out of those experiences they often say, oh, now it feels real, right. So there's a limitation to intellect in that oftentimes we quote, unquote, know something but we don't feel it or we don't actually believe it, and that's usually evidenced by the fact that our behavior is counter to the objective that we stated. I want to lose weight, but I'm eating a shitload of ice cream and I'm not going to the gym, right? It's just a very crude example. But then, you know, each system has its own pros and cons. So, like emotions, they feel real and they feel very powerful and they are very strong indicators of something in the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's not a guarantee that it's accurate. Right, we're often. We often connect to anger or anxiety or joy or happiness for a reason that is tangential to the moment that we're actually in, and and that's, I think, the risk that you were talking to right Is is like, where does my emotional upset potentially lead me off track? Where does it distract me? Where does it have me, I guess, overreacting?
Speaker 2:Right, and so you know, I think that that, like I, I don't want to eradicate emotion, right, and I don't want to eradicate my desire to foster deep personal relationships in a professional setting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what I've realized is I'm not blind to the fact that I have faults when it comes to that right, um, decisive calls as to whether or not I continue a relationship with somebody professionally, because I've I've I've convoluted it right, I've actually taken that relationship and I've turned into a professional or a private personal relationship as well. I think I need to lean on outside perspective. I think that's, I think bringing outside perspective in can help to curtail some of the negatives of infusing emotion into these scenarios. And I think where emotion is a big positive is, I think emotion is what drives compromise in difficult scenarios.
Speaker 2:Right, if you, just if, if you bring um, if you go just intellectual right and you lean on the documents, right, you, you, the things that are like, oh, these are the guide rails to the conversation, this is what you, you can or can't do, based on kind of the documents, the legal documents that can feel very I mean, you can be very, uh cold and you could pull all emotion out of those scenarios and you could greater personal relationships yeah but those, even those situations, they become super contentious and often it doesn't resolve the conflict right because people are just, it doesn't even allow, it doesn't allow any room for emotion, Because people are just, it doesn't even allow, it doesn't allow any room for emotion.
Speaker 2:And then people will go full tilt on emotion because the reaction is often like extreme when they're just faced with that type of a cold. Hey, this is how it is, and I think that the way that you can avoid that swing to the extreme is, you know, by bringing some emotion into it and using that emotion to to help soften your position and and try to find compromise right. I think that's where emotion plays a pivotal role If you want to try to find a you know a, a win-win, or you know, a salute, a final resolution that maybe everybody's a little bit disappointed with, but it allows you to move on and not get entrenched in conflict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think it also allows us to really connect in a way that feels real, with compassion, right, you know, even in really contentious arguments and I think this is whenever I help a client sort of dissect or or after action review the way that perhaps a meeting went poorly or, uh, a one-on-one with one of their team members, you know, whatever the case may be, or quite often a fight with their partner, um, their romantic partner, what ends up happening quite frequently is that that emotion sort of goes super critical and then it clouds out some of the intellectual reason that, okay, yeah, hey, it's not, it's not all our way or my way.
Speaker 1:Right, to simplify things, the other party also has a perspective in this that is fair and equitable.
Speaker 1:But I think, again, it's that blending of how do we combine emotional access to recognize yeah, okay, I'm feeling upset, because that's another piece to this puzzle.
Speaker 1:I think that oftentimes clients I'm always worried when they attempt to repress emotion, because I've always observed that it seems to squirt out at very inopportune moments. And so how do we, how do we acknowledge the emotion that we're feeling so that it does not excessively cloud our intellect, and then how are we able to weave intellect and cognition into managing that that situation right, the the discussion or the negotiations or whatever the case may be, so that we actually can sort of recognize okay, yes, I'm feeling charged up here. That might be making my my thinking a little bit cloudy. How do I then utilize my thinking to also recognize that the other side has a valid point without it being dismissed by my emotional other side has a valid point without it being dismissed by my emotional reactivity? And then, coming full circle, do I allow myself to connect with compassion, right? So it's like this, like interweaving of emotion and cognition or intellect well here.
Speaker 2:Here's the critical piece to this.
Speaker 2:It requires, like, active conversation, like whether that's in person or on a call, ideally in person.
Speaker 2:Um, a dynamic kind of sequencing of events like you just laid out cannot happen over email or text or voicemail, right, when it's one-sided, it just you need, there needs to be a dynamic interaction to allow that sequence to unfold appropriately and you need to be able to kind of release some of that emotion, maybe early on in the conversation on both sides, and then try to kind of talk through kind of the, the intellectual, to kind of pull yourself back on task.
Speaker 2:And it just I've, I've seen it go so poorly when it's relegated to written communication, where one, one side has has the podium, right, they got the mic, it's, it's all, uh transmit, no receive, and then when somebody receives that, it's just it's very, very likely that it's going to spike high emotion and in low intellectual uh reasoning, yeah, and and then, and then it spirals and I've, I've experienced it. I mean that's I'm, you know I am fallible in that regard, right, what I try to do is just not respond right to kind of not like hold myself accountable, to just not uh pouring, you know things into emails that should be spoken and conveyed to somebody, ideally in a, in a in a physical person-to-person engagement yeah.
Speaker 1:So this we're, we're getting into this territory of how do we avoid being heartless or callous, and so that's, I think, a big first step is how do we, even when we feel challenged by the other party, how do we maintain human contact? And yes, if you had a very personally connected relationship, that was in a business context. And now that business context is creating real pressure and conflict on the personal side of things, it's quite likely that the personal relationship is going to start to suffer. But how do we maintain connection to, I don't know, staying centered and avoiding just turning into a really callous kind of machine that's just, you know, going to screw the other side over because you can like how? What have you seen work for people? Or perhaps better, what have you seen not work for people in terms of staying in a, in a heart-filled place?
Speaker 2:well, I know, I know how difficult it is to actually roger up to to meet with somebody in the it's conflict in a, in a physical meeting. It's just, it's uncomfortable for most people. Right, people hide behind emails and text messages, um, or even phone calls, for that matter, because you know you're not forced to confront the other person why do you think that's so hard?
Speaker 2:I think, because people don't want. They want, don't want to feel stupid or feel like they're wrong. They don't want to be afraid of being challenged. Maybe they know that you know there's a lot of, maybe there's a lot of emotion infused into their, their logic and reason and they're going to be called on it and they need to face that reality. And you know they people don't like to be wrong people and face that reality and you know they people don't like to be wrong people.
Speaker 2:And I think that you're, when you're physically confronting that, you don't have time to sit and reflect and you know craft the appropriate response. And you know, you know, you know maybe lean on other people to come up with the best argument to justify your position, even if it's, even if it's a decision that's clouded in emotion's a decision that's clouded in emotion or a position that's clouded in emotion. So I think you know committing to doing the hard thing, and the hard thing is sitting across from somebody physically looking them in the eye, especially if you had a personal relationship or still have a personal relationship with them. It tends to soften the engagement, I mean, even in the harshest scenarios, and you know what it does too. It avoids any anxiety, any fear of the unknown after you've sent a volley right.
Speaker 2:If your plan is to hey, I'm going to take a hard line position. If your plan is to hey, I'm going to take a hard line position, I'm going to do something that may be perceived as hurtful or aggressive. If you're able to convey that person to person, you at least can get the reaction and then try to diffuse the situation a bit. So there's just not that oh man, what's going to happen next? Type scenario that I think a lot of people deal with, especially in kind of business conflict.
Speaker 2:What's coming next? You know how's this going to be received, you know what's going to be the um, the next volley back from the other side. You know to be able to do that real time in a dynamic scenario, person to person. I think you can just diffuse a lot of the fear that that often takes these things off the rails, cause I've seen it happen that way. I've seen, you know, communication completely shut down, person to person shut down, and then it's left to it's, it's left to written correspondence and attorneys at that point, and nobody wins in those scenarios.
Speaker 1:Well, the attorneys do.
Speaker 2:Well, the attorneys do absolutely.
Speaker 1:My wife is an attorney. So you know, yeah, I totally agree, right, and I think certain elements of this are ancestral. You know, if we look at humanity, no matter what country you live in, no matter what your nationality is, we come from tribal origins and I think that there is something to be said for that tribal ancestry, where we don't want conflict in the tribe and we certainly don't want to be kicked out of the tribe. Now, modern day Americans generally don't belong to tribes, but I think we still have a lot of that, that legacy, inside of us, and so there's an element of that. And then I think also, you know, when I look at where clients of mine and also my own personal experience, where I have started to become callous and where I have disconnected from staying centered and grounded in myself and really staying connected to the fact that the other party is also still a human, you know, making missteps not intentionally, hopefully, but maybe, who knows?
Speaker 1:Um is when I rush the process, when I just want to get it done, and I and that's one of the things that I've I've heard from so many of my clients Well, we just need to get this wrapped up. We just need to get this wrapped up, and if anybody's listening to this episode down the road, you can sample plenty more of my episodes and how I get on my high horse about the words just need. But ultimately, whenever I hear that phrasing we just need to dot, dot, dot. It always makes me really curious as a coach. What is it that we're missing under this reductionist language and this notion of we need to get this wrapped up Like well, why and they always have reasoning right, there's always some.
Speaker 2:It makes me I think underlying everything is it makes me feel uncomfortable. Yeah, I just need.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know and, like I want to get to a better feeling place.
Speaker 1:But then when they rush the process because typically I try to advise them, it's not so much coaching in that instance, it's more just advising to say, hey, I would recommend that you internally in your mindset, that you accept that this is going to take probably twice as long as you want it to, and the quicker that you can come to a place of acceptance that this process of resolution is going to take 2x as long as you're wanting it to, you don't come with that same sort of cramped, rushed, tight sensation.
Speaker 1:But when they do, when they do come in, normally I don't want to laugh because it's I mean, I'm laughing because I have done the same thing. But you know, every time that I've come to something with this attitude of let's just button this up and let's get going, it has invariably taken like quadruple as long, because the other person feels resentful, they feel minimized, they feel disrespected, disregarded, and then they're like out to teach me a lesson, and it went from resolving a conflict, resolving a disagreement or a different perspective, to oh, that's how you're going to be. Well, let me now I'm going to show you something.
Speaker 2:Right, no, I totally agree with that.
Speaker 2:So anything else that you can think of in terms of staying in a heartful place, yeah, I mean, I I mean to your point about it like being patient and allowing the situation to unfold appropriately, I think a big part of that is just, you know, doing your best to kind of see the other person's, take the other person's perspective to heart, and if there's certain actions that you can take to help um, placate is not the right word, but to uh help to, but to uh help to, you know, take action as the other person wants you to take action to see their perspective, I think, if you can, if you can, do some of those things and that requires some patience, right, maybe you don't get to a the end result like, let's button this thing up right now, um, immediately, you know this thing up right now, immediately you know you have to go through one or two more steps that you know.
Speaker 2:In the back of your head maybe you're saying, oh well, this isn't even worth it, this is a waste of time. Well, it's not necessarily a waste of time, because even if you go through that process, because the other person would really like you to to help see their perspective. I think you've won, you've you've won some respect. You've earned some respect from the other side.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think the odds increase that they're going to be a little bit more compassionate and a little bit more flexible when it comes to getting to a resolution in the end. Right, they're going to, they're going to come off their their entrenched position because they said, hey, you know what, the other side took the time to at least try to see it the way that I see it, and they had maybe an outside perspective come in to you know, to help them see it that way. Right, To make sure that they're not, you know, completely blind. And I think that taking those measures to try to see things from the other person's perspective is a worthy use of time and I think it will expedite conflict resolution in the end, as opposed to just giving the other side the middle finger and trying to button things up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the traps that I've seen people fall into is when they mistakenly believe that their perspective is what is objectively fair or equitable. Like, my side is aligned with what is right in the universe and therefore your side is all messed up and anything that you put forward is clearly motivated by self-interest. Right, and I mean that doesn't. That tends not to exist. You know, and, and and I've coached multiple people on the same team and have always been so impressed with how different accounts are of the same meeting, to the point where I actually question whether they were in the same room in the same meeting. And so all that's done for me is it's, it's really highlighted and it's something that you know for.
Speaker 1:On the, the instances where I get into arguments with with my wife, you know I cause I obviously run a one man show here, um, business-wise, but when I'm in arguments with with my wife, you know I cause I obviously run a one man show here, um, business wise, but when I'm in arguments with my wife, I have to really remind myself okay, hey, you see it a certain way and you want that way to be the right way.
Speaker 1:You know you want it to be objectively the fair and equitable way. But a lot of this is being filtered through your own perspective and the other party is entitled to do the same exact thing. And how do we craft something together that is actually going to be fair for everyone? Right, it's not necessarily that everyone's going to be happy about it, but do we feel seen, do we feel respected? Do we feel like we were heard by the other party and that they actually get what we're trying to say to them? And what's funny is in conflict a lot of times. The conflict, yeah sure, maybe there's money at stake, or there's there's shares at stake or what have you. But oftentimes what causes people to really entrench and really sort of dig, you know, sink their teeth into conflict and not let go, is the fact that it's they feel disrespected on a on like a personal level, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with you, I think. I think feeling disrespected is the quickest way to somebody entrenching themselves in a position, and then logic and reason will never prevail. It doesn't matter, it now becomes principle. At that point to just to perpetuate the conflict and to win at all costs yeah you could bring in every outside perspective you want, and the somebody that's been disrespected is going to be like I don't care, let's go through this process, let's make it painful for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I know you've got a hard stop coming up here, and so I want to make sure that I respect your time. Are there any closing thoughts that you think that we haven't addressed that would be relevant for this conversation? Obviously, our goal is to have more than one of these conversations to absolutely help support some of the workshops that we were planning.
Speaker 2:This is hopefully the first of many. Sean, I mean, obviously you alluded to the fact that you know our intent is to try to put together some workshop, retreat type scenarios and and have people join us for a more. You know a deep dive into into some of this stuff and pull on kind of our, our, more. You know a deep dive into into some of this stuff and pull on kind of our, our perspective. You know, having come from a previous life in the military and and kind of moving into, you know, high performance roles in the in the private sector. But I think the, the, the guide rails are like the, the.
Speaker 2:The core of of what I think you and I bring to the table is is kind of that, the accessing of vulnerability and emotion. I know we've been kind of like almost demonizing emotion in a way and seeing how it kind of kind of take these things uh off the rails. But I think the ability to kind of be connected to yourself and to others, um, via the heart is is deeply important because it's like all we have in this world is community and relationships. You know that's that's that's what it comes down to. It's not about the things you accumulate, it's it's the connection that you accumulate that is going to to bring you peace and and contentment in this life. And I think that there's there's a lot of that work that can be done, especially with people that are extremely high performers, cause, you know, I I was one of those people, I still consider myself a high performer, but I can do it in a way that.
Speaker 2:I embrace heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I would agree. Um, having seen your family and your friends, and you know the the work endeavors that you've been a part of, and the fact that you're always, you know, trying to juggle a million different things at the same time, you know, I can definitely attest to the fact that you know, you, you still have just not only boundless energy, but also this kind of this deep well in your heart for trying to do good things in the world and trying to help people. You know, every time that I have a friend in need you know that's in the San Diego area and I put them in touch with you and you're able to get them hooked up and squared away, and so that's one of the things that I've really loved about our friendship and you know, there's that example that you, that you set.
Speaker 2:So, um, I think that's, I think that's the, that's the gift that hopefully we can provide to people. Right Is is helping guide them down the path to being more in touch with their heart and who they really are, and and not just in a, uh, you know, kind of isolated spiritual sense, but in a high performance sense right to take that, that type of learning and allow them to make them, allow that for ability to make them better in the professional world, right to be more successful and to be able to achieve things that they they thought were unachievable.
Speaker 2:Cause, I think everything you know, everything comes down to, you know engaging with, with that, that heart, you know who you really are.
Speaker 1:Could not have said it better myself. Well, should we let you get out of here?
Speaker 2:Sure, I look forward to the next one.
Speaker 1:Sounds good. All right, alright, folks, hopefully you enjoyed this conversation. It is, as Nick was alluding to, hopefully the first of many and ultimately, what we're going to be attempting to do here is really just kind of sprinkle in some perspectives that we've had, and you know, from my perspective, more on the coaching side of things and then, from Nick's perspective, more on on more on the coaching side of things and then, from Nick's perspective, more on the actually running the business side of things, and hopefully that's useful for you. And as things continue to develop on our end, we can share contact information and webpages and all that stuff. But for now we just wanted to start putting out some, some content that, uh, that might be useful. So if you've been enjoying the show, please like, subscribe, follow, you know, do all those internet type things and ultimately share. Share with someone that you think would benefit or don't. It's totally up to you. Until next time, take care of each other.