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The Reload with Sean Hansen
The Reload with Sean Hansen
The Power of Vulnerability in Team Building with SEAL Veteran Nick Norris - 211
Have you ever wondered how to balance high performance with finding deeper meaning in life? Join us as we chat with Nick Norris, a distinguished SEAL veteran and entrepreneur, who shares his incredible journey from the rigors of special operations to the complexities of civilian ventures in commercial real estate and consumer packaged goods. Nick opens up about the emotional challenges faced during the transition from military to civilian life, emphasizing the necessity of emotional connection and reinvigoration for personal growth and deeper relationships.
Curious about how trust and vulnerability play into effective leadership? We delve into the critical themes of team trust and vulnerability, drawing from our military experiences to illustrate how shared stressors can naturally build trust and loyalty. Learn about the barriers many leaders face, such as the need for control and fear, and how these obstacles impact creativity, decision-making, and team cohesion. By embracing vulnerability and acknowledging imperfections, we can foster stronger, high-performing teams that thrive even in the face of discomfort and uncertainty.
What does it take to create a genuinely resilient and connected team? We explore the nuanced relationship between trust and vulnerability, highlighting the importance of active listening and effective communication to build stronger, more cohesive teams. Discover how transparency and vulnerability can test and strengthen workplace culture, encouraging leaders to set an example by demonstrating openness. This episode offers valuable insights into fostering healthier, more supportive relationships in both personal and professional settings. Tune in to hear Nick Norris's profound wisdom on enhancing your leadership approach through trust and vulnerability.
Are you an executive, entrepreneur, or combat veteran looking to overcome subconscious blind spots and limiting messaging to unlock your highest performance? Feel free to reach out to Sean at Reload Coaching and Consulting.
Welcome to the Reload, where we help unconventional leaders craft the life they truly want by questioning the assumptions they have about how life works. My name is Sean and I'll be your host on this journey. As a performance coach and special operations combat veteran, I help high-performing executives kick ass in their careers while connecting with deeply powerful insights that fuel their lives. All right, folks, you are in for another treat, because once again, I have my very good friend, nick Norris, joining us for the conversation, and so anytime that Nick shows up, not only do we get to have some laughs, but the benefit is that, you know, nick really does think deeply about these concepts, and he's had an opportunity throughout his career which has covered a very wide range of successes, stressors, et cetera, et cetera to be able to really have somebody that thinks fully and deeply about a subject and that is helping us more intensely and more sophisticatedly flesh out the concepts that are coming up in today's conversation. So, without further ado, nick Norris, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Well, good to be back, buddy. I had a ton in my schedule. That's the only reason I would even show up to do another podcast with you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:No, I actually really enjoy our conversations and you know, I think I always tell you that I enjoy connecting with you and our conversations always take us to interesting places and always kind of trigger interesting threads. So to be able to take that and share it with, I guess, a larger group except, you know, outside of just you and I, I think that's always of benefit. So, yeah, just happy to be here, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, clients of mine that listen to the show. They've often said you know you should have, you should have more conversations on your show. They're sick of you talking to yourself.
Speaker 1:Instead of these solo casts like you should. You know you should try to get Nick on more frequently. I'm like, okay, thanks, I appreciate the constructive feedback. Well, for those people that didn't get to hear you last time or the time like four years ago, why don't you give the folks a little idea of your background and why it is that I chose you to have these conversations? And then, why are you back so soon, nick? Why would you be?
Speaker 2:back on the show so soon.
Speaker 2:Why would you choose me? I still don't know. So my name is Nick Norris. I grew up in Chicago, went to the Naval Academy, went on to serve in the SEAL teams from 2003 to 2013. Various deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and then decided to get out and started a commercial real estate company.
Speaker 2:I've been involved in a couple consumer packaged goods startups and I guess most recently kind of we reconnected, you know, through work in the realm of mental health, specifically for the veteran community but I think for the population at large.
Speaker 2:So, like I've just been deeply committed to being there as a friend and a resource and a point of connection for people and a resource and a point of connection for people. And you know, I think definitely it's broadened my conversations beyond just kind of military and entrepreneurship. It's kind of really expanded them into deeper conversations on, you know, finding deep purpose in life and, you know, finding focus and finding presence and all those things that I think are, you know, far more important than you know our pursuits in the realm of professional endeavors. So yeah, that's kind of a long winded intro to who I am and why I'm here, but I think Sean and I have connected deeply on the latter and why I'm here, but I think Sean and I have connected deeply on the latter and it typically is. It weaves its way into even professional conversations that we're having pragmatically about things going on in each of our lives respectively.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know what you were mentioning earlier about the opportunity to share it with a wider audience. Obviously, you know one of the things that you and I are deeply passionate about is that intersection between performance, you know, making sure that we're still hitting our targets on the job, and then also what is the deeper meaning of life. And you know, for some people that's going to be a more religious conversation, potentially for those that are so inclined. For others it might just be a more agnostic spiritual exploration.
Speaker 1:Who knows? I mean it may just simply be deeper emotional connection. But I think the things that you bring to the table are those elements of real world in the trenches experience in terms of founding companies, running companies, dealing with those stresses, working with investors, dealing with those types of stressors as well. I mean this broad spectrum and then both of us having been in combat in special operations, so there's no shortage of stress inoculation experiences that you and I have had. And then I think potentially the deeper value that is causing us to look at putting some workshops together for folks is how have we come back from the brink of I don't know what. Would you call it Emotional annihilation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were just trying to frame it. It was compartmentalization, or I was trying to find a word that was more accurate and I I said annihilation of emotion. So instead of compartmentalizing, we, I just annihilated it. Um, and it's funny because, like you know, thinking about how like suppression of emotion was like it served me really well in my former life, in our former life in the military, and it really isn't. I mean, I've worked super hard at unlocking emotion, decompartmentalizing, kind of reinvigorating and growing emotion in my life, and obviously there's a time and a place to be able to kind of maybe I'll use your word partition my emotions to serve me better in kind of a higher stress scenario, but not completely mute or eradicate my ability to connect with emotion. Because I've now found that, you know, I think it was always present in some capacity. I just, you know, was scared of feeling and expressing vulnerability, but now that I've really fostered and grown that dimension of who I am, I think it's served me very well on the outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when we use the phrase on the outside, we mean the outside of the military, not a federal penitentiary, so which I mean yeah, there's some, yeah, there's irony there, cause I think oftentimes like, uh, those in the military and then those that cause. I actually did a coaching event at a federal penitentiary at one time and a lot of the language ended up being very similar and I think that in certain ways, there are parallels in terms of this somewhat isolating feeling of, you know, being in the military, and it's an experience that is in some ways very exotic and that cuts us off from, I don't know, the lay person's experience, and I think at least the inmates that I was speaking with they felt something very similar. So, anyway, so when we say on the outside.
Speaker 2:that's what we mean. Well, the, the experiences are exotic right and and and in. In essence, it creates the fraternity right that you feel on. You know I'll speak to the military right Like, we have this shared crucible that we've gone through, depending on what branch of service and what unit you're in, and it creates this camaraderie, this brotherhood, fraternity, and, you know, maybe you don't necessarily need to be use emotion as the, as the point of connection, because you're already connected through this shared crucible, that that you've been through, whereas, I think, on the outside, because you have people that you know in in your workplace, like it's not like you go through hell week or that, yeah, you have some trials and you know things that you go through, but it's definitely not as structured or as intense or as um, it doesn't create that homogeny or that, that, that tight-knit cohesiveness, just as a standard.
Speaker 2:And I think that the ability to connect with people as humans and to really lean heavily on emotion is a great way to create that community, that fraternity, like the glue that can hold great organizations together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's fundamentally the basis of how we decided on this particular topic for today is team trust and vulnerability. And you know why does it even matter that we might engage in vulnerability as a team? And you know, from my perspective, coming from the coaching side of the equation, right? So if you're representing the sort of the end user, if you will, and I'm representing the coaching side, one of the things that I've seen quite frequently, in fact the majority of the cases of clients that I work with, what they report to me, is a real gap in their ability to feel vulnerable in front of their colleagues on the leadership team.
Speaker 1:Now, they may, you know, I have had instances where clients have had teams where they were personally vulnerable, and I think that that's definitely a good thing. But then, when it came to being professionally vulnerable, you know so they're willing to share difficult information or emotionally challenging information about their home life, and they, they do bond in in a way over that stuff. But then where things started to break down is when, okay, yeah, but we also still have issues at work, we also still have issues at work and there's sort of this.
Speaker 2:Like you stay in your lane effect.
Speaker 1:that's occurring and you know it's like, okay, sharing time is over, we're not talking about personal stuff anymore. Now. Now you're going to hit me where it counts, quote unquote, in my, my work sensitivity. So I, you know, I was thinking about it and I was like, okay, look, this is going to be a way better conversation to actually flesh out with Nick. And so why don't we, if the main theme for today is team trust and vulnerability, why don't we dig in a little bit deeper into the compartmentalization piece? Because I think that a lot of that has to tie in with vulnerability. So why would anybody listening care about compartmentalization as a concept? What do you think?
Speaker 2:Why Well? Why should they care yeah?
Speaker 1:Why should they care?
Speaker 2:I mean I think I'll speak generally. My experience has been that a lot of people in this world are compartmentalized emotionally, has been that a lot of people in this world are compartmentalized emotionally and I'll keep coming back to that because I think it's so important to focus on, because it ends up becoming kind of like the root problem with a team's inability to kind of coalesce and to connect. How? Again, because we don't, unfortunately, like we don't get to like again. I'll take it back to the military.
Speaker 2:The reason that I could be emotionally compartmentalized and pretty dumb in the military is because I went through this, this arduous selection process, this you know, for in the seal I went through Hell Week and I went through all that training and workup and it kind of just created this natural cohesiveness in this team construct where trust and loyalty and commitment were fostered because of the stressors that were applied to us as a group through that shared experience and in the on the outside, in in you know, civilian life. We don't have the luxury of going through that. Yeah, we all go through our own separate little selection but, like, the group doesn't go through an arduous selection. So how are you going to connect with that group truly foster trust and loyalty and commitment to each other. And I think the only way you do I mean, we're all guarded, we guard ourselves right, we're not very vulnerable, we don't want to expose ourselves and be the subject of critique or criticism or ridicule because we're like, oh man, we just, we want to look perfect all the time, we need to impress everybody.
Speaker 2:But I think if we connected with each other on a more human basis and the best way to do that is to kind of take it down to emotion, right, universally, we all feel emotions. We may all feel emotions for different reasons, but if you feel the emotion of sadness, I can relate to the emotion of sadness. You know we may have totally different life experiences that have led us to kind of feel that emotion, but it's a really awesome universal point of connection and you can take that across the entire spectrum of emotion and I think that we're just afraid to kind of go there because we think we're going to be criticized or ridiculed or seen as weak. But truly the only way that you're going to come together as a team, I think, and perform at a high level is if you can find that fundamental source of connection. And I'm a true believer that you know you find it through emotion, like invulnerability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, from what I've noticed in running workshops and retreats and off sites and et cetera, et cetera, is that there is. I know that it's going to be a long session when one or multiple parties in the group will not acknowledge that they are struggling with something you know it's like. Well, where, where do you see issues? I don't see, I don't have any issues.
Speaker 2:You know, are you fooling? Because you're not fooling anybody I did. We're human beings. I mean, that's like the reality is like no one's perfect in this world. None of us are.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you can't get past that, if you have to pretend like you're perfect, like yeah, you know other ways to create better connection and you know to grow closer and to perform at a higher level, because it starts with the individual acknowledging that they're imperfect. You know we all need help. You should be willing to. I mean, the reason you're part of a team is because you're seeking others around you that are better at those things that you are, you know, frankly, weak at. I mean, that's what creates good teams, right. None of us I mean no great team I've ever been part of is full of a bunch of people that are just awesome at everything. Like everybody stacks up differently in different areas of expertise, and the best teams are those that are quick to identify weaknesses and then seek others to support them in those weaknesses. So you know, the group as a whole is a group that is strong in every area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that you know covers for each other and is able to you know, as you said also be strong where others are, you know, not as strong. And so I think you've done a great job in outlining the cost to leaders, leadership teams and organizations when the leadership team does not have access to vulnerability. I think at this point it might be good for us to distinguish between trust and vulnerability. So I think oftentimes they are mistakenly conflated, as though they are synonyms of one another, and, from your perspective, how do you see trust and vulnerability being either related or distinct from each other?
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a component of trust in being vulnerable for most people, right, like I trust that you're going to respect me sharing things about myself, both personally and professionally, and you're going to respond in a, in a, I guess, a, an appropriate way, right, a non-judgmental way, like an open-minded way. Um, you know from, I'm just trying to, I'm trying to figure out the best way to kind of uh, attack this like um, jump in if you want, sean, I'm trying to figure out. Well one of the things that I've noticed over time.
Speaker 1:Right is, often people want to figure out why does it even matter? Why does it even matter? For me to understand if there's a distinction between trust and vulnerability, and I think one of the elements that you pointed out already right Is like where is trust oftentimes a precondition for vulnerability? Now, can one achieve vulnerability without trust? I think that one can, but it's going to be much more rare and it's going to be tied to faith, right? So one of the differences between faith and trust is the absence of proof.
Speaker 1:Trust is you have done a certain thing or you have a course of performance that I have seen and I have come to either rely on it or I know that I cannot rely on it. Money or your wife, and and that was just a very crude way of expressing that trust can be very conditional. Trust can be very specific. I can trust you to do these things, I cannot trust you to do these other things. But where it is that I know where to allocate that trust, I don't actually dip into vulnerability necessarily, I think, cause I'm covered, I'm guarded, I'm like, okay, I'll trust him here but not there.
Speaker 1:Now where that sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I think yeah, I think that you frame it very eloquently Like trust can be kind of partitioned in certain areas of your life, right, whereas I think vulnerability is kind of areas of your life, right, whereas I think vulnerability is kind of more omnipresent, right? Like, if I'm going to embrace more vulnerability in my life, yeah, there'll be components in my life where, yeah, the trust exists and I'm going to be vulnerable in those situations and it's been proven to me that you're a trustworthy individual. But also, you know, if I'm fully embracing vulnerability, there's going to be situations where, you know, you haven't proven to me and it is going to be faith-based, right. And I think that that ability to be vulnerable, regardless of whether it's trust or faith-based is I mean it's just or faith-based is I mean it's just something that it takes time to foster, that. But I mean, I think that I'm a huge advocate of being a, you know, embracing vulnerability universally.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I mean, like you can express some vulnerability, be vulnerable in situations and then key off whether or not it warrants continued vulnerability in that specific situation. Your ability to go deeper or pull back and maybe be a little bit more guarded or share a little bit less, or be a little less, I mean, I guess, overall vulnerable, um, and so it's a little bit more of a dynamic situation, but I think you, you need to embrace it. Um holy, you know it's not something that you just dip in and out of um, you know you don't shut off your vulnerability and then turn it on and like, if you're, you need to be a genuine version of yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there's a couple of interesting things in what you were just talking about there. So one of the things that I've noticed and this isn't, this isn't 100%, but the majority of the time what I've noticed is that when people come to a conclusion inside themselves that they're they're willing to be vulnerable with someone or a group of someone's, it more often than not Okay, again, not a hundred percent, but more often than not it tends to be an all access pass. Once they've they've made that resolution inside themselves to be vulnerable, and more often than not, part of the reason why it's so scary is because they do tend to frame it in their heart and soul and mind as an all-access pass, like it's it's not conditional, like trust, where it's like oh, okay, you have access to this file, not access to that other file. With vulnerability, most of the time it is this like okay, I, okay, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm opening up the kimono and you know, and, and you're going to, you're going to see it, you're going to see it all, and I think that's part of why it's so scary.
Speaker 1:The other piece is from what I've observed and this is something that I've observed in myself, in my friends and family and in my clients, is that you know, like, let's just look at the English language and the phrasing that we have in the English language. We often place our trust in someone, and so trust is often an external thing. I'm giving you trust and it's it's like I'm giving it to another person, and so in some ways it's, it's, it's almost I'm giving it to another person and so in some ways it's, it's, it's almost, um, it's almost for the other person. You know, when, when someone places their trust in me think about that language, like, think about it literally, their trust in me, and so it's, it's something that there's this extension of their trust into myself, and I actually tend to be the one that feels gratified. I'm the one that feels honored by receiving somebody else's trust.
Speaker 1:Vulnerability it, from what I've observed again and people are free to disagree, in fact, you may disagree Uh, vulnerability is more of an inward game. It's, it's often something that people decide without communicating it. You know, like trust, they often will communicate outwardly.
Speaker 2:Vulnerability it's transacted trust is. I think trust can be more transactional right. I mean it can be very situationally dependent whereas, like, if you're embracing vulnerability like I, I can. I can uh, withhold trust or bestow trust on somebody and yet still be a completely vulnerable person, like, be emotionally open and be vulnerable in you know, for all intents and purposes at all times, and still say, well, you know what I still I don't trust you with this, I don't trust you to do this, um. And it doesn't mean that I'm not vulnerable still and I'm not open, um, it just means that transactionally, in this situation, I'm making a, I have to make an objective, very pragmatic call as to whether or not you know, I'm ready to place trust in you to do this thing or take on, you know, x responsibility.
Speaker 1:That's a. I want to reiterate that real quick, or I want to lean into that a little bit more, because I think sometimes people have this mistaken conclusion that okay, well, if I've reached a place of vulnerability, then that means that the person I have to give them all my trust in all ways. And no, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, like I, I feel like I'm a pretty open, vulnerable person. Right, I care about people. I show my emotion. You know I'm not an emotional wreck. Right, I am able to kind of deal with my emotions well and like, perform when I need to perform and express various emotions at appropriate times.
Speaker 2:But, you know, I, absolutely I mean, in order to be to run any organization, any team, to do anything well, you have to be able to say, hey, you know what? No, this is the right time and the right person to place trust and it, you know, in some scenarios, like somebody would say, hey, you know, and being vulnerable and being able to openly kind of express things and not sugarcoat them or hide things from people, it actually allows you to kind of continue to embody vulnerability, yet be able to have conversations with people and let them know like, hey, listen, it doesn't mean that I care about you any less. I just don't feel like you're ready to do X, y or Z, or maybe you are, you know, and just because you're the bearer of bad news, right, it doesn't mean that you've stopped, you've cut off all empathy for that person. But you know, pragmatically, you need to move forward. Right, you have to.
Speaker 2:There's certain people that have earned different levels of trust and you know trust again takes it, takes time um. It takes people um showing you that they can do something um effectively, you know and and do it um not not, it's not just a fluke Like they've actually shown you that, hey, like I'm capable of doing this, I'm competent in this area and you should be able to trust me and I want you to trust me Um and you know you'll, you know you, you can, you can give trust um and take it away and still embody vulnerability fully.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for me, part of the reason why discussing these two concepts and really getting to a place of deep understanding as to why are they different is so that we actually know how to interact with these concepts that we understand. Okay, if I give trust to somebody, that it can be. It can be localized to certain issues, it can be withdrawn if the person is proving themselves untrustworthy, and that vulnerability being more of that inward game. I mean one way to think about it. Potentially and this just popped into my head is trust is a gift I give to somebody else. Vulnerability is a gift I give to myself, because you and I both have spent years being emotionally deadened and you know, and like I quibble with the word compartmentalization because I think, for the most part, what people are doing is simply partitioning their emotions or their stress, really like whenever a client tells me oh, I'm really good at compartmentalizing, what they mean by that typically is I don't let my work stress come home and I don't let my home stress come to work, and that ends up being categorically false. I have you know whether it's the special operations crowd, whether it's the startup crowd, whether it's the publicly traded company executive crowd. I have yet to find an individual that is actually really truly compartmentalizing their stress. I think that they often partition their stress and they do generally a decent job of trying to keep spillover from happening. But if you think about a physical partition versus like a lockbox compartment, the stress usually, over time, either spills over under, around whatever, and so when we look at this notion of trust being a gift I give to somebody else versus vulnerability being a trust I give to myself, that vulnerability, the gift, is that we allow ourselves to feel, we allow ourselves to actually take part of the actual richness of human experience. That is possible when we feel and you know, there's this exercise that I do with clients, where I have them, because all my clients are super armored up people and I ask them okay, imagine, person A sees a bunch of threats in the wide world and they say to themselves oh wow, there are a lot of threats out here, and so then they build a fortress and they hire guards, and that's still not enough. So then they build a citadel inside the fortress so that not even the guards can get to them, and only they are allowed inside the citadel, surrounded by guards, surrounded by a fortress. But then they're inside the citadel by themselves and they still think that the world is too threatening, and so they put on a suit of armor. So still think that the world is too threatening, and so they put on a suit of armor. So that's that's person A.
Speaker 1:Person B looks out at the wide world and says, wow, there's a lot of threats out here, but, for whatever reason, chooses not to build the fortress, not to get the guards, not to build the citadel, not to wear the armor. How are those two people? How is their experience different in life? Right, and it's person B that's choosing vulnerability, that's choosing to still be in harm's way. Potentially you know, not always, but you know potentially they're going to be in harm's way. And yet there is something inside of them that recognizes they want a fuller experience. They don't want to just be locked up in their armor.
Speaker 2:Well they're. Also, they're only going to grow, right, you grow through both positive and negative experiences. Right, if you have no stimulus, right, you're the person that's locked away in a Citadel in a suit of armor. Yeah, you're just not going to have any experience. You know you're not. You need to suffer, you need to be betrayed. You need to have your trust broken so you can grow. You understand how to better kind of like pulse that trust out there. You know give it to people, take it away. Being able to be vulnerable the entire time. You know be able to gauge. You know how you regulate that.
Speaker 2:That only happens through experience, through life, and you know that life. You know life's tough, right, no one likes to be let down. We don't like suffering, but you know it's just part of our existence here. That's why we're here. We're here to experience life, to to be attached to things and then to experience suffering. You know, when we start to lose things, like just like, the more you do it. Like we talk about stress inoculation, like you should, you should be inoculating yourself to suffering, like, allow yourself to to suffer, allow yourself to be attached, and you know, the the more you practice that I think you're going to be attached and you know, the the more you practice, that I think you're going to be able to go through life um, in a way that you know is is less fearful of these things happening because you know how to manage them. You know how to navigate these things when they, when they, uh inevitably surface in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to me, what you're talking about really boils down to vulnerability, is the gift that we give ourselves, and the fruition of that gift is resilience. The individual who is actually allowing themselves to experience life, to experience the ups and the downs, to experience the heartache, the heartbreak, the you know, the suffering, that person actually does become resilient. They learn, whereas the person that's so armored up and rigid, you know, and when I was in special operations, I used to think that I was so resilient I used to actually tell people like, yeah, you could drop me anywhere in the world and I'd be good, and what I was was rigid and and and ultimately became not just rigid but brittle. You know, and and like the retreats that you and I have been on together as staff members, how many? How many guys and some ladies as well, but for the most part, special operations is comprised of men. How many men and, to some degree, women have we seen that would claim to be highly resilient but that were actually rigid and brittle? What, like roughly what percentage do you think?
Speaker 2:Oh, going in, I would say 90 plus percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would too. You know, and I was one of them. You know, like, I mean, I'm guilty as charged, right you know? And then, like post-retreat, what do you see?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's the opposite man. When people's hearts are like open, right, they're open, they're totally open to feeling and putting themselves out there and pulling in emotion from other people and just interacting with people on a very human level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and receiving that support, you know, and that's that's also one of the things about vulnerability that I think is so, uh, overlooked by the executive crowd is they don't, they often don't see the benefit in vulnerability and it's like, well, unless you're vulnerable, you're never going to really truly accept help. And I mean and I don't mean delegation, although delegation can certainly be part of it but I mean really truly asking for help. Like I am hosed here, I need help.
Speaker 2:You know, and not like expressing that right, like expressing that to your people being okay, expressing to your teammates that like I mean, even preemptively, like I'm not really good at this one thing, like you know, I my strengths, I feel like I'm strong in these areas and I'm weak in these areas. But if you express that openly and people know that, like it actually empowers people, people are like, they kind of find it as, like man, I'm stoked. I really would love to find a way to help that person in this capacity because I'm good at that. They said that they're not and I know that I'm good at the things that they say they're strong at and that, like, I mean I don't know. I mean I feel like I feel empowered and special and important when I'm able to step in and help a friend or a teammate in an area where I excel and they falter.
Speaker 2:That's like basic relationship dynamics, right, that's what you're looking for. You want to help people, bolster people where they're weak, and it makes everything better week and uh, and it makes everything better and if you, if you open yourself up to to kind of, you know, and you just have to have faith, man, that people are gonna uh, take advantage of that, and if they do, you know what you've learned? You've learned a lot about that person. If they take advantage of that vulnerability and they, they decide to cast stones instead, I mean, what an amazing litmus test. Uh, you know, I mean, you're, you've, you've learned? Oh, wow, okay, that, I mean you know, I've learned a lot about that person based on their reaction to my, my ability to be vulnerable yeah, and you know, going it goes back to what you were saying before right, we can still be vulnerable, does it?
Speaker 1:that doesn't mean that we have to turn off the vulnerability circuit. Maybe we turn off the trust circuit. You know, somebody proves to us that, you know, I don't know, maybe they've betrayed us and it's not because they misunderstood or, you know, like in this hypothetical, we're saying that we actually really truly were betrayed. Well then, in that case, yeah, maybe, maybe the trust circuit has to be turned off for a while, but that doesn't mean that we have to run back up into our shell and deny ourselves that sense of connection that we might have with somebody else, and I think that oftentimes, no, you go ahead no, I'm saying like yeah, I mean, if somebody betrays your trust and they show like the worst thing you can do is to climb back into your armor and be vulnerable, because then you're like letting that person win.
Speaker 2:You're kind of proving the concept right that they are like oh man, like you're. They made you feel stupid for being so vulnerable. So you just don't act vulnerable, you don't embrace vulnerability anymore. So you're proving that that other person is right, like their outlook on life. To be rigid and closed off is a better way about going through life. No, it isn't. I 100% know that that's not the truth, so don't let you know. You can't let them like hopefully your ability to be resilient and continue to embrace vulnerability serves as an example that people like that can see. And maybe they're like you know, eventually, hey, I kind of want to be like that. I'm sick of being closed off and guarded all the time. Like I would love it if people help me, like maybe it'd make my life easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what do you think prevents, you know? So we've been talking here these last several minutes about the benefits of vulnerability, and before that you were talking about the benefits of trust on a team. And you know we see all these virtues, you know, in terms of the team can operate more effectively, it can operate more efficiently, right, because you don't have so much of the meeting after the meeting syndrome.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you've been in an organization, or at least have seen one, where it's like we all have the formal meeting, nothing really gets decided, and then people kind of rally together in their little factions after the meeting or there's like whispering into the boss's ear after the meeting and that's how things are actually getting decided. So we have all of these benefits and then, of course, the personal benefits that we just talked about as far as like vulnerability being a gift we give ourselves. There are all these benefits that come from having trust and vulnerability on both an individual level and the leadership team level. What do you think? And you can brainstorm as many ideas as you want. What do you think? And you can, you know, brainstorm as many ideas as you want. What do you think prevents leadership teams from having real trust and vulnerability?
Speaker 2:Oh man, um, I mean, I think at the very core it's like this reluctance to give up control. And I think if people people that teams that struggle with establishing trust and embracing vulnerability, typically are being run or have multiple people involved that are very, very controlling people, they feel like control is a necessity and most of that is centered around them as an individual. If they can't control the situation, then it feels unstable and if you can't relinquish control, trust can't exist, right? I mean, that's the whole point, right? That's what trust is. It's like relinquishing control, giving control to somebody else because you trust them right. So I think the ability to relinquish control and be comfortable relinquishing control is kind of ground zero that you know. It either makes or breaks the ability for trust and vulnerability to exist.
Speaker 1:I want to make an administrative announcement here to any of my clients that are listening. I did not tell Nick to say that we did not discuss this ahead of time. Not at all. That's one of the things that I've observed a lot, and the reason I'm kind of making that joke is because I talk about this a lot in the sessions that I have with the individuals you know.
Speaker 1:And where is control an extension of a desire to create safety and security on the person that is manifesting that controlling behavior.
Speaker 1:Controlling behavior and in a hierarchy. If you have a boss that is in a place of feeling insecure and they're trying to create security by exerting their authority and the control that that authority provides them, yeah, I mean, from what I have observed and from what has been relayed to me by clients you know over the last seven years or so, um is it's tremendously stifling to the organization. It really cuts into people's willingness to lead, and these are not individual contributors, I mean, these are vice presidents and senior vice presidents and director level individuals you know, managing directors, and so if they have a boss over them that is insecure at a very deep level and believes that the finish line quote unquote can only be reached via one path, then, yeah, it starts to bog everything down. The boss becomes a bottleneck for decision-making. A lot of times, these very high-performing, highly talented, highly educated, highly experienced individuals that are working for the boss eventually go into kind of like sit-on-our-hands mode and they're just like okay, well, just tell me what to do.
Speaker 2:Or they quit or they just quit. I mean, if you're a high performer and you're in like a uh, one dimensional, monochromatic organization, because you know the leadership won't relinquish control, you're going to feel stifled and bored. And if you can't ever provide any dimension in in kind of decision-making, then it's it's just no longer emotionally or intellectually stimulating and I would, I would think anybody that is a an A player is eventually just going to leave. Right, we all, we all want to be heard, we want to be able to communicate and connect and, um, I mean, that's like the coolest ideas, the most groundbreaking things in the world come from, you know, the ability to collaborate effectively. And there's nobody that's that intelligent, that important, that all-knowing, that can control everything and just create an amazing organization that does great things in the world Like. I'm convinced that it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:What else? Is there anything else that you can think of that would prevent leadership teams from having that trust and vulnerability?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it all sends back to control. I mean there's reasons why somebody wouldn't relinquish control, right? They, you know, they uh fear, fear of failure, um, you know, uh, being you know, a victim of of past experience and not, uh, you know, and I guess not flexible enough to think that you know things can happen differently, just because something, just because they did X before they were linkage control and allowed you know kind of this to happen and it went poorly, they never can do it again, right, I mean, I think I think that fear and that kind of trauma from past experience, again it just it, it creates an atmosphere of control. Again it just it, it creates an atmosphere of control. But I mean that that's that's the core, that's that's that's at the core for me. I mean, I'm sorry to be simplistic in my answer, but I mean I think that that's you know, control. Fear and control are at the center of of, you know, trust and vulnerability not existing or not flourishing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think there's a meaningful distinction in what you just raised though that fear.
Speaker 1:So a lot of times, you know and I mean obviously I do this for a living, so I kind of enjoy traveling across the nuances of language and meaning and so on and so forth, and I know that you do as well. So some people might just be rolling their eyes and thinking that this is just purely semantics, but to me, where we have fear, fear shows up in a lot of different ways and our responses to fear are also quite varied. And so if I'm thinking about it from the perspective of somebody who's still on the leadership team but is not the boss right? They're not the team leader, but they are a very high ranking officer in a, in a company, for instance, what would keep them from stepping into a place of trust and vulnerability is often at least from what I've observed is often a fear of will I still have a seat at the table? And that shows up in a lot of different expressions. One, just basic primal tribalistic, you know do I belong? Two do I have a job that allows?
Speaker 2:me to be the provider to my family. It's only on the hierarchy, right. If there's somebody that's not, that wants, does not want anybody else to provide good ideas, right, and you go, you buck the trend as a VP and you step in and you know, you start placing trust and you start exhibiting vulnerability amongst those that you're leading and then runs counter to what the big boss wants or feels. Yeah, you fear that you might not be part of the inner circle anymore. You'll be cast aside right, You'll be ousted from the group or lose your job or be demoted. Lose money, right.
Speaker 1:I mean punitive monetary measures probably factor in a lot for people and people just want to play it safe, right, yeah, and on top of it, you know, there's, I think, another element that has come forward, because there are a number of my clients that say they have more money than they know what to do with. And when I press them on it, they say quite earnestly that no, we have done a really great job saving and investing and financially we are good. There is no financial duress. That could happen even if I was fired today and never managed to get another job. And so then I wonder okay, well then, why are you connected to so much fear that you're unwilling to be vulnerable in front of these people? And they say well, I guess it's because I want to be right or I want my idea to be valued. And there's this phenomenon especially in circles with really smart people, where their ideas are them, their self-worth, their identity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there, there it's like it's it's externalized self-worth verse.
Speaker 2:Internalized self-worth, right, I mean I, any deep conversation that I have with people that are struggling, I, I make a point of saying like, hey, you, the hardest thing for you or me or any of us to do is to love ourselves, to give ourselves the kind of love and kindness and attention and care that often most of us are willing to give to everybody else around us. Right, we're really good caregivers of others but not ourselves. And if you derive your value externally, you're constantly never going to be good enough. You're looking for that next dopamine hit and it has to come external. But if you can, you start to kind of value, you start to value yourself truly and love yourself. And maybe my language is sappy for some people, but it truly is all about self-love. When you can start loving yourself deeply, you are so much better of a caregiver to everybody else that you interact with in the world. But it's hard to do so. Usually we're the last for the last person to to deserve that love and that care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that ties back in with vulnerability, in that to be truly vulnerable, we have to be truly seen. And it is well, it's not. It's not shocking anymore because it's. You know, there's been so many years of these conversations coming forward that I'm no longer shocked by it, but in the beginning I would always. I was always so shocked because these are individuals that had such tremendous resumes and had accomplished so much and had such great qualities about them, and on the surface they would expressly state that they were proud of themselves, that they acknowledged their accomplishments and they've contributed a lot, and et cetera, et cetera. But then when we really pulled the layers back't, they truly did not want to be seen. And you know, and it's like because they're never, never, never enough.
Speaker 2:I mean that it all makes sense now, right, like hindsight's uh, 2020, yeah, it makes total sense when I look at that. Somebody that's a higher, cheaper, has all these accolades, that has done all these things in the world is really just trying to validate themselves as being worthy, good enough, valuable. But if that value is derived extrinsically right it's. You know, it's really hard to sustain that. Right, there's a point where you no longer are going to be valuable to everybody else around you. You know you're going to get old, you're going to get older, you're going to get weaker, you're going to not be as sharp. And then what happens then? Right, you're going to struggle finding external validation because you're not going to be as valuable to others.
Speaker 2:You have to start now. You have to start finding intrinsic value in yourself, just because of who you are and if you can be at peace with that, no one can ever take that away. That doesn't fade, probably just grows. Right, we have it when we're kids. And then we start to look for external validation and then, as we near death, we kind of become children again and we have to learn that lesson. Either it's a really hard, abrupt lesson that you have to learn again, or you start working on it. Now, right, you start looking at ways to create self-worth intrinsically and it eases you into that transition. That way you're not. If you're not like on the glide path down, you're actually just continuing to grow and you're on a glide path up.
Speaker 1:What a wonderful segue. It's like it's like it's okay to actually have you on the show, like you actually have some skill and you bring something to the table here, nick, I really Every now and then.
Speaker 2:Every now and then, sean.
Speaker 1:So let's, let's round off by talking about what is practical application for this right, it's all well and good, Sean and Nick, to like talk about all this philosophical stuff blah, blah, blah, blah blah but what do we do with this? So you know, if somebody's listening to this and they're on a leadership team, whether they're the team leader of that leadership team or whether they're a member of that leadership team and they've heard this discussion about trust and vulnerability and they're saying, okay, yeah, cool, I see the benefits, it would be great, I'd love to have it on my team. What can they start to do? So let's, let's think about it.
Speaker 2:How about listen? Listen would be a pragmatic application.
Speaker 1:Okay, tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2:I say so like taking a time to listen to people, right, like not not being so quick to share your thoughts, your uh, your ideas, but but to kind of pose questions to your team. Allow them to talk when a topic comes up or some type of endeavor, assignment, like be the last one to inject your thoughts and feeling. Like allow people to kind of speak up. Maybe you kick it off, right, you can catalyze it, but then be quick to shut your mouth and actually just listen to other people.
Speaker 1:And how does that build trust and vulnerability?
Speaker 2:Because if you're allowing people to share their thoughts and their feelings and their ideas and you're not quick to just jump in right to kind of trump their ideas, you actually listen to them and they see you listening right. Like you know you can watch when you see people's body language, you know if they're truly like taking what you're saying and digesting it and thinking about it and valuing it. You're not just just like glossed over, waiting for the next moment for you to jump in because you haven't been listening to a thing that they've been saying. Like it's readily apparent. Like you become I don't know, maybe it's a practice Like you become more aware of how engaged somebody is as a listener, but try to be a super engaged listener.
Speaker 2:Like truly listen, absorb and digest what people are saying. Like give them your full attention. Like look them in the eye. You know, don't be having your eyes dart away, don't be messing with your phone, don't be thinking about what you're about to throw into the mix because it's so much better and more brilliant. Like let people just talk and you know and even help them right. Like if they're on a thread and maybe it's not, you don't agree with all of it, but you find those kernels of good in what they're bringing to the table and then help them expand on it right, maybe help their thought process, you know, accelerate in the right direction. You can help craft and tailor those type of discussions to really strengthen their confidence in themselves. And you're building trust because then that person is going to be more confident in their ability to share and to get things done on the team. I mean you're starting to build trust and confidence within a team by empowering them.
Speaker 1:There was one element that was sort of buried in what you just said and I actually want to pull it more into the foreground, and that is if you disagree. Want to pull it more into the foreground, and that is if you disagree being able to listen when you disagree with somebody, especially if the disagreement is known already.
Speaker 1:that is such a powerful bid for trust and vulnerability. The ability to discuss an idea that I disagree with and to really truly connect with curiosity about it, to allow the person that is championing that idea to walk me through their thinking that's tremendously vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Well, they feel valuable too. Right, I mean, you're creating, you're helping that person feel some intrinsic value because you're actually you're helping validate, you know, some of the things that they feel strongly about. You're at least telling them like, hey, you know what? Though I may not agree with you wholly, I see some validity in, in these things that you said and I want to let you know that, like you know, I share some of those things. Right, you're finding opportunities to create common ground and when you can create common ground, you're creating connection. When you're creating connection, you're building trust and you know the team starts to coalesce.
Speaker 2:But if all you do is just sharpshoot and never let anybody inject thoughts, feelings, you never, you know, help them feel some intrinsic value in what they're saying. You just it's all or nothing. Like you're not. You're not going to coalesce as a team ever. Like it's's just, you're going to constantly be at odds. Those people are going to feel gun shy about sharing anything because they feel like they're just going to get shot down, and people don't like to be shot down continuously.
Speaker 2:Right, it's tough, man, it's a blow to your ego. It makes you, you know, depending on where you are in your evolution and kind of finding intrinsic value. You're probably taking a big shot there, right? Like man, I feel less valuable. You know most of us derive a lot of value externally, so you're just adding to that devaluation for these people on your team that you're supposed to be trying to strengthen, to build up because they're your teammates. Right, you guys are supposed to be paddling in the build up because they're your teammates. Right there, you guys are supposed to be paddling in the same direction towards a common goal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, help each other and I also, you know. So I also see a use case for going first as well, right? So if that example was about letting other people take center stage, I think that there is a use case for going first, and whether you are the team leader or you are the team member, a couple of the ways in which I think going first can be very, very powerful in fostering an environment of trust and vulnerability is let's go with the obvious one, stating when you're uncomfortable about something, you know maybe there's, there's a project that's slipping sideways or it's over budget and you know behind on time and you've been frantically trying to get the project back up on speed and you know on budget, but it's not happening and you can't see a clear way there, you know, can you? Can you lead into that space of discomfort and ask for help in that?
Speaker 2:And totally Well, I mean, when you bring that specific example up, yeah, like, like, a leader is not supposed to be an expert in all things, right, that's why you have a bunch of subject matter experts that are working with you on a team and let's say, you're a leader on like a high-tech, complex engineering problem. You're going to have a bunch of super smart engineers and, as the leader, you may be saying, hey, you know, I don't know why this project is getting delayed, it's kind of gone sideways. I really want to get us on step, because we have a goal, uh, to hit and we have a timeline that we need to deliver on to a client. Well, maybe a good way to kind of uh also present that. I mean, yeah, yeah, Express your concerns, express your fears and kind of the things that are bothering you, but then also say, but I don't truly understand, like, the depth of the engineering complexity that you guys are dealing with and like I just want to understand, like, please, like, let me know where you guys are getting hung up and how we might be able to better support you, because obviously, you know this is a really tough problem and we're we're delayed and we need to, we need to find a way to way to pick things up.
Speaker 2:But I understand that I don't get the problem. I'm not an expert in the fields that you guys are experts in. So empower the team to actually step up and provide suggestions, provide clarity, help educate you. You know that that, like a willingness to kind of, you know, check your ego and and allow the experts to say their piece and educate you, is a big step. You know that's you being vulnerable, right, you're, you're, you're still saying, hey, we need to get this job done, we need to be on on time and on task. But, you know, help me better understand the problem.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm, yeah, and I mean I think there is an expression of that that also plays out on the leadership team itself. And one of the things that has happened in the course of my work with individuals is I would have one client that was dealing with a certain problem and, you know, looking down their organization. So like, let's say it's a vice president, vice president looking down their, their organization and recognizing, okay, right now we're under-resourced for the problem that we're trying to solve, either because we don't have enough bodies or we don't have the right body in terms of expertise. And it's really challenging for that vice president to ask another vice president especially if it's in a group setting for help. Can we borrow Johnson for two months? Because this, this particular problem is, is kicking our ass. And you know, and oftentimes I think there's a lot of siloing that happens on senior leadership teams, you know. So, again, like visualizing a table full of vice presidents and then sort of a CEO at the head of the table, there's often a lot of siloing. You know, like I'll, I'll take care of my turf, you worry about your own turf.
Speaker 1:And the instances where I've seen a vice president like ask for help in that group setting. It's been very powerful and it's created a real bond between those two individuals. You know, it's kind of a what's that story of Benjamin Franklin who went to his adversary and asked to borrow a book, and then you know, as as as the tale goes, the two of them actually became quite congenial with one another and that assisted the legislative work that they were attempting to do, because previously there were political adversaries and there was a lot of animosity between them and they weren't able to get as much done. And then, after they built that bond and had that trust and vulnerability between them, then apparently I mean, it wasn't there, obviously, but apparently things went much smoother. And so to me, I think being able to ask for help is something that's really important.
Speaker 1:And then also, one of the things that you mentioned that I wanted to key in on is where it is that individuals are overly fixated on extrinsic validation, and I think this is another area where somebody can really go first. And I think this is another area where somebody can really go first. And here again I'm really zeroing in on although this would apply between I don't know, like a team leader and a collection of individual contributors but primarily what I'm focusing on right now is the senior leadership team, so it's basically a collection of vice presidents and then a president or a you know a CEO type is where can we lead a conversation about extrinsic validation, you know and, and really tap into vulnerability by saying like, yeah, hey, just, you know one of the things that's been on my mind and, granted, like, there's probably a lot of groundwork that has to be laid before this stuff gets brought forward. But can one have a real honest conversation with one's senior leadership peers about where we feel validated and you know and, and yeah, it's, it's it cuts me down or it it it, you know, makes me feel anxious or depressed when I feel like I'm not, I don't know, you know, like.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, when we were in special operations, nobody wanted to be a strap hanger, right, and for those who don't know what a strap hanger is, it's basically somebody that hangs on the straps of the pack of the person in front of you, so you're not carrying your, your own fair share of the load.
Speaker 1:And in special operations groups and I would say in combat groups generally, that is a very taboo thing. Like you do not want to be that person, and so that's an area of mental, emotional, sometimes spiritual turmoil for individuals. You know, where am I feeling? Like I'm not keeping up with the pace? Or you know, and that happens all the time, because you know, I don't know, maybe somebody got pregnant and they're not able to work as long, or somebody has long COVID and they're not able to work as much, or you know any number of things. You know. I mean I've had clients have all kinds of things come up in their life, whether it's medical, family members get sick, you know, uh, kids are suicidal. I mean, there's been no shortage of things that have been, that have served to distract the executive from being able to perform at the maximum that they are capable of.
Speaker 2:And how is it that we have a real discussion about that and not just like oh well, you know, I just need to manage it better, yeah, but you know what then you're just, you're basically ignoring the fact that you might be in the wrong company. You might be in the wrong, you have to have the wrong cultural fit, and I know some people might not have the the luxury of of kind of just deciding well, you know, this culture here isn't good for me, so I should probably leave, because they still need to make it.
Speaker 1:You mean if they're in a culture that can't accept those human foils?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, but like yeah, but being willing to step up. I mean, I know that if I was the leader, if I was a healthy leader, that's like having the answers to the test right. That's like having the answers to the test right. If my people, the people I'm working alongside, those that are executing on my behalf, if they're willing to come up to me and let me know where they're not feeling validated, where they are feeling validated, how they could perform better, what's inhibiting them from performing better, if they're just willing to have that conversation, then I actually know what I need to do to help support those people, to make them a more effective part of my organization. If I'm fostering a culture that has everybody hiding that stuff from me because they're scared of retribution or judgment I mean, that's a nightmare Then I'm playing the guessing game as the CEO, right?
Speaker 2:Oh, what am I going to do? I don't know. I don't know what motivates Jim. I don't know why. Maybe I didn't know that he's dealing with some personal things, or he really would like to just be heard more in meetings or just be given a little bit more responsibility, and it's not just what I think is motivating him. That's going to get the job done. But yeah, I mean I think in by testing, that you can test it, see if the culture is a good fit for you how would you test it?
Speaker 2:you know, it's like I mean, I think just by being honest and open, just being a human right, I mean, obviously there's professionalism that needs to be at play here. You know, you're not just going to go in to, you know, the ceo and chairman's office if you're in a big company and just start bawling and being like, yeah, there's a way to have the conversation. But I think, to share openly and honestly, in a way that you think would be beneficial and accretive to kind of the greater good of the team, why not? Because you're going to be able to see like, hey, is there any empathy here? Are they open to hearing, um, you know, perspective that I bring to the table that may make the team better, at least from from my vantage point. Like that, I think that tests the health of the, the culture and the organization.
Speaker 2:Because if you just shut down, I mean like you know, if you, if you just shut down, I mean like if you, if you try to go down that path, you try to express, you know, embody some vulnerability, um be, you know, try to have a human to human, uh, connection, try to be very, you know, direct and kind of provide that feedback, and you just get shut down completely. I mean, it's pretty, that's pretty unhealthy. Like that's not, I don't care if it's professional or personal, like, uh, that type of relationship dynamic is unhealthy and I, for me, it would be a huge red red flag, like you know, maybe you know, hey, I'm not going to, maybe I'm not going to just throw in the towel right away, but I might be in the wrong organization. Maybe this culture isn't, isn't suited, uh, to my ability to grow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. What I'm pulling out of that is, you know, as you are offering these bids right of transparency, of vulnerability, hey, I've got, I've got something going on, either in my personal life or, like the example that I gave, my department lacks a certain skillet that's needed to address the problem that we've encountered right now. Can I borrow some resources right? Either one of those or any plethora of other potential hypothetical issues. If, fundamentally, what the group is demonstrating is a pulling together versus a pulling apart or a siloing, that's, I think, fundamentally what you're talking about. There is, like the, the basis of what I'm looking for. Does the team natively, organically, want to pull together to solve problems, or will it? Will it silo? And well, you better figure your problem out, cause you know we got nothing but high performers on this team. You know, and I think to me that fundamental litmus test is really important to keep in mind. And where is it that you are potentially?
Speaker 1:You know, dear listener, if you think that the pulling together version is the better team, really challenge yourself and ask yourself do you show up that way If somebody else is the one that has the issue?
Speaker 1:Is your first instinct to pull together, or is your first instinct, fudge? I'm trying to cuss less on the show, fudge, I've already got so much on my plate already, I don't have time for this. You know, to me that's a really critical internal litmus test that we should be asking ourselves first, and and I tried to do that I mean, I don't. I don't have a team that I'm a part of, although maybe Nick and I are going to be a team, who knows if he's not going to be a strap hanger. Um, but you know, like, for instance, with my friends and my family and my wife, do I lean in or am I leaning away? Am I saying, oh God, I already got so much on my plate right now I don't have time for one more thing, and so I don't know, what do you think about that, nick? What do you think about that as like an actionable internal and then external litmus test?
Speaker 2:No, I think that's great. I mean, you should be asking those questions of yourself, right? We're talking about creating intrinsic value, right? And you know, part of creating intrinsic value and valuing yourself is, you know, fostering awareness, like be more aware of how you show up, how you um, what your attitude's like, what kind of thoughts and feelings are are kind of emanating from you. You know, what do you have spinning around in your head, like, I think the the fostering of awareness, personal awareness, is is, I mean, I that's what I work on every single day is trying to to tune in my own awareness. Right, I want to know, I want to be more aware of my own thoughts and behaviors and inactions, because if I'm not, if I'm unaware and I'm asleep, I have no way of kind of propelling myself in the right direction to improve, way of kind of propelling myself in the right direction to improve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's, I think, another area leading people into a place of vulnerability and trust, is telling on oneself. Telling on oneself when you're like, yeah, okay, I really conceptually believe that a team should pull together, and here are a couple instances where I actually leaned away, not in, and that going first can be so powerful. And you know, there are a couple clients of mine that I've had who happen to be CEOs and they've chosen to lead first in that regard. And are they perfect people, perfect executives? No, they're not. But those instances where they were willing to go first, I think really were powerful examples that let people know, oh, okay, well, if he or she can tell on themselves, then I guess I can also get into this.
Speaker 2:And so I think we've talked about a lot of things. Is there anything that we've left out, that you think you want to add to the conversation? As far as practical steps about bridging a lack of trust or vulnerability on a senior leadership team, the practice like what can an individual do in their own time? Right, you talk about like, uh, like pragmatic actions, like next steps. You know the things that you can do just to foster better self-awareness and better connection, um, with yourself. I mean that that's it's probably a much longer, uh, follow-up conversation, but, um, I think I think that's a great place for anyone, regardless of your rank or status in an organization, is to be able to foster those self-awareness skills. There you go, nick. I think we all can benefit from them.
Speaker 1:Always trying to invite yourself back on the show.
Speaker 2:I'm just trying to find a job on show.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to find a job I want to empower you to just ask for what you want. You don't need to subtly weave it in there, you can come out and say it.
Speaker 2:Your podcast pays so well, so I'm just looking for another opportunity to find a slot. Yeah, Cool.
Speaker 1:Well, I do think that that is actually a very valuable topic for us to cover next time. So I know that you are sort of intermittently involved in social media, because I think that you and I both recognize that social media can turn into a real time drain. Do you have a place that you want people to reach out, or should we just leave it where it's at and we'll leave you the man of mystery?
Speaker 2:I mean, they can always reach out on Instagram. I guess I'm not on it very much, but if people message me on Instagram, I'm pretty good about responding to messages. So I think I'm like Nick Norris 1981 or something along those lines. You'll see my happy face. I think my picture's out there.
Speaker 1:All right, sounds good. Well, nick, thanks for coming on the show again, and it looks like we do have our next topic set out for us, so maybe you know start jotting some thoughts down about where you want to take that one.
Speaker 2:I just I shoot from the hip. Sean, I told you from the beginning Cool, I let you lead. You're the officer. I'm going to basically take my role as the enlisted that's following you.
Speaker 1:A nice little role reversal for us. Cool, all right, perfect Sounds good. Well, folks, I hope that you enjoyed this conversation, an actual conversation this time, and not just me monologuing my way through a topic, monologuing my way through a topic. Ultimately, as you can tell, nick and I are very strong advocates for having trust and vulnerability, not just in your personal life, but also in your work life.
Speaker 1:Now, granted, we do recognize that there are certain professional bounds that we are most likely going to maintain in that other environment, but what I have observed with senior leadership teams is they spend so much time together under such high pressure circumstances that it is always baffling to me when these individuals are showing up to an environment that, at the very least, feels constrained and, in some cases, actually feels downright toxic. And so, ultimately, we hope that these concepts that we've just walked through are one path forward. Right, you don't have to agree with everything that we said. You don't have to agree with anything that we said, but hopefully, this conversation has brought certain concepts into greater focus and or, potentially, has dropped it on your dashboard for the first time and has started this process of inquiry internally about yeah, how might I have more of that either in my life, my personal life or the senior leadership team that I'm on and I keep harping on senior leadership team because predominantly that's what I work with.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, if you have been enjoying the show, would love it. If you would like subscribe, follow, you know all that internet stuff and, more importantly, share it with people that you think would benefit or don't. It's totally up to you. Until next time, take care of each other and yourself.
