How Photographers Can Use "Novelty" as Creative Fuel with Arthur Lefo

In this episode with wildlife photographer, bear guide, and OM Systems ambassador Arthur Lefo (@arthurlefo), we delve into the concept of gaining "traction" as a photographer and how it evolves with career progression. We briefly touch on the controversial topic of wolf reintroduction in Colorado, emphasizing the importance of exploring diverse perspectives in heated topics. We discuss how novelty can be a creative driving force in photography, and note how too much seeking of novelty can have a negative impact on project completion. Furthermore, we explore the dedication required for sustained excellence, emphasizing the significance of consistently tackling mundane tasks. The episode concludes with insights into Arthur's editing style and various techniques used by photographers to establish a unique artistic identity.

You can check out Arthur's company Think Wild Expeditions here: https://www.thinkwildexp.com/

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

INTRO:

00:03.99
smacey
Hey buddy. How's going can I show off something really cool to you?

00:06.79
aaronmannes
Good. How are you please always like that. Oh that is nice. Yeah.

00:13.59
smacey
Check out that. Nice little polar bear print acrylic under glass 30 by 12 from our good friends over at whitewall who are new sponsors of the show and who are sponsoring this episode.

00:27.63
aaronmannes
Wow. Nice.

00:37.92
smacey
And you picked up 2 things from them didn't you.

00:38.16
aaronmannes
I did I added 2 to my national park wall I absolutely loved it. But it was great. Easy yeah, but but listen I I've in the last four years have tried.

00:43.13
smacey
How was the how was the experience ordering from them just so people know of course they're a sponsor of the show but just in case people want to order from them. How was it.

00:57.66
aaronmannes
Ah, handful of printing companies. Um, this is equal to if not the best without a doubt in terms of ease just selection ease. What do you want? what kind of ah backing. Do you want framing? Do you want? How do you upload your photos very very intuitive I would say. And it came I was most surprised with how fast it came to my house I don't know where they're shipping from but it was fast as can be by the time I was I would say four days it was at my house.

01:22.42
smacey
Um, how fast wow.

01:30.57
aaronmannes
I Don't know if that's that's typical. Maybe I'm close to where they're shipping from but it was fast printed and in my place what they say well.

01:36.23
smacey
Within nine days I believe is what they say within nine days um lots options you did metal I did acrylic under glass you can frame them. You can do lots of different substrates. Really cool stuff and for listeners of the show. It's ah, Tpm 15 gets you 15% off at.

01:49.77
aaronmannes
Nice.

01:52.18
smacey
Check out if you choose to use Whitewall labs for your printing and you can check out their website by clicking the link in the episode description and print yourself something nice whether it's a shot from a national park or if you have a bear or something else.

02:09.79
aaronmannes
Yeah, bring those photos to life. Don't get them off the drive, get them off the drive hang. Um.

02:10.25
smacey
Do that get him off the drive hang him hang him. Well thanks to whitewell for being the sponsor of this episode we had a good episode today with Arthur Lafoe second time on the podcast and he is a great speaker will say that.

02:25.43
aaronmannes
Great speaker. This is my first time talking with him he was with you solo? Um, so yeah, Bm ah we yeah like you said he's a great speaker. He had ah a great.

02:31.27
smacey
Writes b m before Mantis right.

02:41.95
aaronmannes
Feel like way of looking at wildlife photography his own journey. It was I was just enthralled with listening the entire time as he's telling this story. So I I don't know what about you?


02:55.26
smacey
I just think it's always nice when somebody you can clearly tell in an articulated sentence that they've they've really had time to think about the concepts you're talking about if that makes sense or you're discussing and that really seemed to be the case I liked how we talked about novelty and how that could be good and bad. In certain situations how it can be motivating but you can also get bogged down on that. So keep an ear open for that and as always if you like these episodes leave a rating a review on Spotify Apple Podcasts we we really appreciate. It's a cost for effective way to support the show and if you're listening on Spotify leave ah leave a comment or in the.

03:15.83
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

03:35.20
smacey
Q and a section and vote on the polls. It's kind of insightful. It gives us data into how everyone's thinking and it makes it more of a two-way conversation so let's just hop right into our discussion with Arthur Lefoe

03:46.11
aaronmannes
Awesome! Let's do it.

INTERVIEW:

00:49.92
Arthur Lefo
About what I was saying about growing up here. Yeah yeah, I yeah I was born in France and moved to Miami at a really young age when um, my dad was offered a job out here. Um I was originally born in the suburbs of Paris and. Um, you know, moving out here I I moved out here I was two months old so um I have only known this place growing up even though I you know was raised by very french parents who are still very french and sound very french um, you know i.

01:22.41
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:23.60
smacey
I.

01:27.35
Arthur Lefo
I was raised in a I wouldn't say mostly american because of the nature of the culture of Miami but you know very much as a ah floridian um, and that's really where you know, growing up on an island here is. What allowed me to discover my love for for nature. Um, which wasn't in you know the mountains or in Yellowstone or you know, ah as far north as Alaska which is you know come to think of it as an adult. It's the polar opposite end of the country from where I was born.

01:48.84
aaronmannes
Are.

02:05.50
aaronmannes
Do.

02:05.11
Arthur Lefo
Um, you know couldn't get much further. Um and but at the same time you know like being out here is is what what allowed me to to kind of discover these things about myself and to to explore the ocean mainly most of my exploring was underwater. Um, free diving and um, you know spearfishing and scuba diving and going fishing off of a kayak and exploring mangrove tunnels. All that kind of stuff is really what got me into enjoying nature. Um, and that all so just that all. Took off more when I moved to Colorado so why did I leave Florida so I I grew up here and I went to school up north in Northern Florida a university of Florida in Gainesville.

02:45.40
smacey
Why did you leave again. Just yeah.

03:01.65
Arthur Lefo
And I really liked it up there. It was inland so I was an hour from the ocean on either side kind of smack dab in the middle of the state and um, you know it was it was ah it was. It was a really great time then to explore nature as well. I got to discover kind of some of the hidden treasures of Northern Florida that most people overlook when they think of Florida they just think of you know, beaches and palm trees and that's about it. But there's so much cool wilderness and nature inland in Florida. Um, that I got to discover while you know living in Gainesville and coincidentally I had had friends from my childhood in Florida that moved out to Colorado um, when I was about 12 and so you know they were family friends. So like we would go visit them every now and then and. When I was in college I started going to Colorado a lot more to the point of like the last couple years I lived in Florida I was going to Colorado like 3 or 4 times a year um mostly at the time for a variety of nature and also live music. Um.

04:09.32
Arthur Lefo
Which is another one of my you know my other loves I guess you could say um, but after going that much you know that frequently got to the point where I was like well I'm buying 4 flights a year like I might as well just pay rent. You know what I mean and I kind of just.

04:25.27
aaronmannes
Yeah.

04:25.45
smacey
Bright. Yeah.

04:29.20
Arthur Lefo
I kind of just said why not you know and just decided to move out there I I wasn't really tempted to come back to Miami um I kind of just wanted to experience something new. You know and and so I moved out to to boulder Colorado after I finished college and in 2017

04:44.91
smacey
Yeah, and obviously this is our well maybe not obviously is their second time interviewing you right? Aaron were you part of the first interview with Arthur was it way back in the beginnings of this show. Oh wow that was that's.

04:49.74
Arthur Lefo
Yeah I was just us too. Yeah Aaron Aaron wasn't Aaron wasn't a and cool official piece.

04:51.65
aaronmannes
I was not free Pre B M before manus. Yeah bow movement. Yeah yeah.

05:02.52
smacey
Form Ah Bm ah Juvenile joke. Okay, ah yeah, well I should go back and myself and listen to that episode and everyone else should so that we can see the progress of us as photographers as hosts and guests where were you at last time.

05:07.51
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

05:15.76
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

05:20.75
smacey
In terms of just life and photography. Do you recall during our interview.

05:24.29
Arthur Lefo
Yeah I do um I do I do more or less. Um, you know I think the first interview was so a few months after I had moved had moved to Jackson I think it was in the spring of 2021 um

05:36.87
smacey
Okay.

05:41.80
Arthur Lefo
And I was just starting to gain traction as in my photography career. Um, yes, that's a great question. Um, at the time at the at the time.

05:45.75
smacey
Um, okay, let's pause can I interrupt can be root and interrupt what is traction. Thank you.

05:58.17
Arthur Lefo
To me traction meant getting my work noticed which in this day and age is social media. So this was a period of time where I went from sharing photos in you know, mid 2020 to a network of.

06:00.20
smacey
Um, okay, okay.

06:15.53
Arthur Lefo
Followers on my personal Instagram which has grown into my professional Instagram which at the time was just you know friends and family. Um, and you know fast forward 6 to eight months later you know I was that was starting to grow significantly I think by. That point it had probably you know close to tripled um back when Instagram was a little easier to work with um and you know so that was ah that was a point where like other opportunities started popping up too which. Think it ties into the traction element right? when I started guiding full time. Um, when Olympus now om system started following me and reaching out to me. Maybe just a couple of months after my first podcast or a few weeks after my preferred.

07:00.82
smacey
A.

07:11.36
Arthur Lefo
First pause on on photographer mindset they reached out and wanted me to do a webinar. Oh thanks you guys? Ah yeah I mean you guys were.

07:15.38
smacey
Um, we jump started your career. It's all our fault.

07:17.19
aaronmannes
Wow, Go lost I wasn't even there go me.

07:28.58
Arthur Lefo
You guys were either the first or the second podcast to invite me on ever and ah I think like four more. Ah.

07:33.11
smacey
Um, cool How many of you been on since all right copycats.

07:41.80
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

07:44.32
Arthur Lefo
More Some of them have been like really photocentric in terms of like photography techniques. Some of them have been very conservation centric if you've heard of the wolf connection that podcast. Um I was I was on with them.

07:47.49
smacey
Right.

08:01.26
Arthur Lefo
Um, So yeah, it's been a little bit of variety. A lot of them have had sort of similar overlap. Um, you know I've told I've told I told the story of how I got into photography kind of a few times on a few podcasts. So That's something that I Think. You know, most people have heard by now I think including this one too. Um.

08:19.84
smacey
Yeah, well I was going to ask you did you have the luxury of enjoying and exploring nature and doing all these things you talked about at the beginning of the episode prior to ever picking up a camera and.

08:30.31
Arthur Lefo
No well you mean in the last episode did we talk about me.

08:37.81
smacey
Well, you just either way I Just the question on its own I Guess were you let me rephrase were you? um you know exploring nature and things with your camera. Let's let's do it this way with your camera before socials were a thing.

08:55.34
Arthur Lefo
Definitely. Ah, definitely um, you know I and I say this a lot I've actually been sort of leaning on this heavily in recent presentations for Om system and I've always said this.

08:55.66
smacey
Because that's a good luxury to have in my opinion I think yeah.

09:12.12
Arthur Lefo
And almost every webinar or lesson or anything I've ever taught I am a nature lover first and a photographer second I first picked up a camera in 2018. Um, and before that my entire life my entire childhood I you know ironically I did like taking photos on my iphone. Um, but I you know I never took it seriously I never saw it as anything but like you know, just snapping a memory. Um, which I guess it's. Still is that very much so but you know for me, it was always about my own personal enjoyment of nature sort of selfishly you know I'll admit you know I just I just loved spending time outside but also maybe not so selfishly because I always loved spending time outside. But also bringing friends into the outdoors which has very heavily translated into um my career as a guide right? which is that's basically what I do. That's the you know the the third piece to the. Triangle puzzle of like what am I doing with my life that that sort of brought everything together in the last three years um was was guiding and and making that a core element of.

10:37.24
Arthur Lefo
Of of my life and my approach to enjoying nature and and wilderness.

10:40.69
smacey
Do you have what the hell am I doing moments like is this worth my time am I spending my time the way I should be do you ever have those thoughts or are you continually finding yourself where you should be in your own head.

10:58.28
Arthur Lefo
Um I have those thoughts a lot. Yeah yeah I definitely have those thoughts a lot you know, um, generally it's in the off season.

10:59.58
smacey
I Think we all do I think that's why I enjoy asking it because it it.

11:13.34
Arthur Lefo
So I guide really really intense schedules all summer I'm basically working you know fifteen weeks straight working every single day. Not a single day off unless like I beg for one and then I get 1 um you know or if I'm sick. Um, but even then I usually work sick but all that to say that like in the offseason I have a lot of downtime I have a lot of time to you know, think about reviewing images editing images. Um, you know working on other aspects of my business growing my my second business think wild. So. You know, starting to think about all that and and I always have these thoughts like what am I doing is this what I need to be doing should I be doing something else should I get another job on the side. You know, ah my brain's kind of crazy and there's always these thoughts of you know why am I here and is this really what I should keep doing. But at the end of the day I think there's always something that brings me back to it and shows me like yeah this is what you should be doing.

12:21.38
aaronmannes
Can I ask a question that's not you don't have to get into super detail but I'm just curious. Ah I could see it going either way because I honestly have no idea is guiding a a lucrative endeavor or is it more about the passion and the um. Just the experience that goes along with doing that all summer or is it like hey this this part of summer is going to keep me afloat for the year because it is a very lucrative thing and I'm I'm lucky of however, many people to have this job.

12:55.38
Arthur Lefo
Um I think it's both be honest, um I think guiding in the scope that I do it now where it requires being away for so long where um.

13:10.86
Arthur Lefo
It It is a very intensive season um is something that I love doing right now and it's something that I think fits me in my youth So to say pretty nicely. Um, but it's not something that I see myself.

13:14.93
aaronmannes
Um.

13:22.73
aaronmannes
Um.

13:28.73
Arthur Lefo
Doing in this way at least forever and right now because photography is such a challenging industry to make a living in nowadays. Um guiding is for a lot of Wildlife photographers at least guiding. I can't I can I can't think of a single wildlife photographer my age that doesn't have guiding involved in some way or has a totally separate career to to you know source their finances from um and so it it does pay the bills right? The majority of my bills.

13:57.98
aaronmannes
Um, right.

14:05.76
Arthur Lefo
Personally are paid by guiding. That's not the case for everyone. Um, but that is the reality for a lot. Um, that being said, you know it's not the only source of income and you know part of.

14:08.99
aaronmannes
Um, we are.

14:24.83
Arthur Lefo
The reason why I'm diversifying a lot of my you know businesses and and career and all that is is exactly that is to be able to have more of a balance in in my life as a photographer and and to be able to you know guiding I think will always be a part of it. In some way shape or form. Um, not to the extreme that it is is now but you know maybe it'll be you know 1 to two weeks at a time maybe 3 you know and then back home. Not four months. Um.

15:00.43
Arthur Lefo
And then in between that kind of having the opportunity to again continue focusing on all the other aspects of you know, being a photographer whether that be you know, working with partnerships or um, you know writing articles or selling prints or calendars. You know at the end of the day I think it's it's.

15:05.36
aaronmannes
Are.

15:20.22
Arthur Lefo
It takes it takes piecing together a pretty complex puzzle to make it as a wildlife photographer nowadays and you know guiding is just it's something that I love too right? I don't want to seem like it I Only do it for money but but it is a really convenient thing to love that also pays the bills.

15:25.68
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

15:32.22
aaronmannes
Um.

15:36.10
aaronmannes
Yeah, right.

15:40.17
Arthur Lefo
Um, and at the end of the day I think the most important and the most impactful thing about guiding to me is that it really contributes far more heavily and directly to conservation. Than anything else I think we do as wildlife photographers right? because there's of course issues and topics that might require immediate attention. Um, like say you know getting signatures to oppose a mine in Alaska. To quote or reference something more recent. Um, you know like those are important important things to be doing in conservation. But at the end of the day. What has the the biggest impact in my opinion is bringing people into these places that we love so dearly and. And empowering them to develop their own personal connection with these places and to channel that inspiration into you know, feeling confident and sharing their voice and and how they see things. Um. Because at the end of the day. Everyone has a unique voice and a unique perspective and a unique connection to wilderness and I think everybody's perspective and and outlook on wilderness is equally as valuable as anyone else's right like I might have you know more or less.

17:07.38
Arthur Lefo
You know, followers or whatever then someone else, but that doesn't matter at the end of the day like what really has impact and what really has influence is the circle of people that are directly around you and the people that you actually know on a personal level and the more people get inspired by wilderness the more people are going to choose to spend time in these areas to learn about them to care for them. And it's sort of a domino effect right? like I might inspire someone to start taking photos of of bears and then that person is going to want to bring one of their friends and etc etc and it's just spreading spider web of of really deep and genuine connection and inspiration to these places that.

17:28.79
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

17:36.87
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

17:45.46
Arthur Lefo
That creates the biggest impact at the end of the day.

17:48.84
aaronmannes
Yeah, that's that's well said, really well said I think I mean just while you're saying that I'm smiling because I just had a conversation with someone. Um, it's winter here pretty soon birds are migrating and hatching and we have these piping plovers on the shorelines of Connecticut. It's a little teeny.

18:02.80
Arthur Lefo
Um, and then.

18:05.89
aaronmannes
Cute as heck birds that you can photograph but they close down the beaches right? They they fence off lots of areas. They they protect their eggs. Um, it's It's just very protected. No dogs on the beach. No no, no anything. Um and I I was just bringing it up to someone That's not into photography.

18:16.80
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

18:25.73
aaronmannes
But loves nature and their response was like oh those those freaking plovers they ruin the beach because from ah from a just a not thinking about it stance it was like oh this is an inconvenience but then when you stop them and you have an explanation and you're like look at these pictures like look at.

18:32.94
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

18:44.60
aaronmannes
Look at the struggle of these little guys that can't fly for weeks and there's coyotes and Fox that are coming by and peregrine falcons that are swooping down to get them like they they have a serious struggle and we're just doing a little bit to protect them and if the beaches closed for a couple weeks to help them continue on you know and.

18:57.14
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

19:02.66
aaronmannes
Kind of it's eye-opening and they're like oh Wow like that's so cute like I didn't I never realized blah Blah Blah. So. It's just those little things with little connections. Those little stories that can have a domino effect and now when their friends are complaining about the beach being closed. Maybe they pass that On. You know? so I hear you totally I think that's really well-explained Well-connected. We're all connected. Um, and.

19:24.70
Arthur Lefo
Yeah I mean I think it's ironic that you mentioned that because I mean as you were talking about that I thought about bears right in ah in a place I mean even in Colorado which ironically I've never seen a bear in Colorado even though I've lived there for. Ah.

19:30.48
aaronmannes
Um.

19:40.32
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, minus the Jackson Year is probably going on 5 years five or six years but there are plenty of black bears in Colorado and you know people a lot of people who aren't as connected to these places who might just be like you know, casual folks just living in. Say small towns or even you know in cities like Boulder. There's there's bears that visit neighborhoods there you know they might see these animals as nuisances you know and just kind of like without without having the perspective right? that you gain from having someone that. Understands and and truly cares about them share with you and maybe for someone in Connecticut. It's someone sharing you know their truth or their their views on plovers and and for someone in Colorado, it might be bears and in other places it might be wolves or wherever it might be. You know what? I mean it could be sharks. It could be.

20:28.58
aaronmannes
Yeah.

20:32.53
Arthur Lefo
Literally anything and at the end of the day. It's it's through kind of breaking down our preconceived notions about and assumptions about things that we don't understand that we can not only understand them better. But I think grow to appreciate them. Um, because naturally through understanding comes appreciation.

20:43.80
aaronmannes
Um.

20:46.19
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

20:50.16
aaronmannes
Yeah, and that that was a huge debate in Colorado about the wolves being reintroduced right? that was like a huge fight of misunderstanding like city versus the still is.

20:52.35
Arthur Lefo
Um.

20:56.69
Arthur Lefo
Oh yeah, was it still is and I've been you know, right in the middle of it at least as a keyboard warrior I guess you could say um and it's backfired to I got banned from Instagram for.

21:12.40
aaronmannes
Um, did you are what.

21:14.19
Arthur Lefo
Yes I got I got reported for spreading misinformation I Guess when I was speaking I was literally solely referencing facts that are published by State Wildlife agencies and I think that I got banned for a week I couldn't comment like do anything.

21:17.70
smacey
Wow.

21:24.83
aaronmannes
Wow.

21:31.52
Arthur Lefo
And do anything I could scroll but that's it. Um, yeah I knew I was Ben I tried to comment on a post and.

21:33.10
smacey
Wow Put in time out.

21:35.10
aaronmannes
Did you know you were banned or or like is does it tell you does it give you any info like what happened.

21:47.27
Arthur Lefo
Got the notification. You can't do this action or however they phrase it tell us if you think you tell us if you think we made a mistake So I'm like tell us you know, just like click the button tell us and then nothing happens. Um, you know Obviously thanks, we do.

21:51.72
aaronmannes
Um.

21:55.30
aaronmannes
Yeah, like thanks for telling us nothing will happen. But.

22:04.00
Arthur Lefo
You know I met and then I went to my post and people I had posted the day before and people were commenting on one of my photos and I tried to reply and I couldn't even do that and then I was just trying to scroll and like something and I couldn't even do that So it was a little frustrating you know because I I was really approaching this very divisive issue I will say like.

22:11.54
aaronmannes
Um, ah.

22:23.67
Arthur Lefo
It's a complex issue I'm not going to sit here and act like wolves are easy to coexist with um I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of people do nowadays not just in wildlife but in life and politics is.

22:32.44
aaronmannes
Um.

22:42.30
Arthur Lefo
Paint things as black or white when in reality I think with almost every issue out there. There's a gray area that you know many people sit somewhere in the middle of um and you know my honest approach which I'll be I'll be brutally honest.

22:43.91
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

23:01.81
Arthur Lefo
I was way more black and white just a few years ago and it's through spending time in places like Wyoming and and learning from both. You know, acclaimed wolf biologists and. Um, you know hearing both sides and and also being around people that I you know disagreed with pretty staunchly um that I realized that there really was a lot more nuanced to issues like this than than I think a lot of people are willing to accept. Um, so yeah.

23:36.98
smacey
Yeah, that's that's the dun and krueger effect right? and in the beginning on a topic. We're really interested and or passionate about we think we know everything and then we realize we we hit the valley of despair where we're like shit I don't know anything.

23:46.35
Arthur Lefo
Right.

23:54.68
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

23:55.23
smacey
It's a big spike in a big dip competency on the Y Axis and then but over time it gradually increases as you explore and discover and you know dig deeper. It's It's just something to be aware of because we all fall victim to it in different areas. Ah you know at times.

24:03.60
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

24:03.40
aaronmannes
Are the.

24:09.47
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah, it is yeah again, it's it's I couldn't agree more with what you're saying like at the beginning you know you you feel really strongly about something you're it's all heart right? It's all passion and I think everyone. Whether you know, whatever side you might fall on on an issue you know I think at the end of the day people speaking out of passion are are genuinely of the of the mindset that they're doing something for the best right? and that they're that their beliefs are online with what's best for.

24:37.83
aaronmannes
Are.

24:46.48
Arthur Lefo
For whatever their beliefs are right? and and I the point is I think it comes from a good place but it's through it's I think most people come from a good place. Um, not all but most.

24:50.56
smacey
Yes.

25:00.50
Arthur Lefo
Ah, you know and and I think that like you said like it's it's by learning more and by being exposed to the other side which I think is a critical point to bring up with a topic like wolves is people not being willing to see the other side whether that be you know Ranchers or Hunters not being.

25:18.27
smacey
Yeah, yeah.

25:20.80
Arthur Lefo
Not willing to decide of you know people who want wildlife and more wild spaces and then you know and vice versa right? people who want more wild spaces and who want more wildlife just as a theoretical concept you know or a philosophical like. Approach to how the planet should be you know without considering like real life impacts to people that you know, live and breathe in these places um a lot more than a lot more than.

25:48.10
smacey
For 8

25:53.24
Arthur Lefo
The casual you know citygoer who may have verded 4 wolves in this case in Colorado.

25:53.77
aaronmannes
Um, and.

25:58.90
smacey
Right? Well I Very much enjoy you a big wolf guy. You know have the maturity and the emotional intelligence to to see the other side right? I think that's ah, a trait. We all need to have.

25:58.90
aaronmannes
Um, right.

26:12.13
smacey
Or at least try to try to find within ourselves, especially regarding to topics. We're very passionate about can you for people who have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Can you summarize what this is about in 30 seconds yeah just what's this debate in it's in Colorado right.

26:12.50
Arthur Lefo
Um.

26:25.74
Arthur Lefo
The wolf issue. Yeah so long story short um wolves were introduced or were put on the ballot up for a vote as to whether or not they would be reintroduced in the state of Colorado.

26:41.48
smacey
Got it.

26:43.75
Arthur Lefo
And the 2020 election which is a first because historically speaking biologists would make the decisions on whether or not things or animals would be reintroduced as was the case in Yellowstone. Um right? So it's.

26:56.72
smacey
So you have non-experts voting. Well sorry you have people who aren't biologists voting they may be experts in their respective fields in regards to infrastructure and stuff.

27:02.50
Arthur Lefo
It's.

27:08.84
Arthur Lefo
Right? The the term the term that we would refer to it by in while in the scope of wildlife is ballot box biology which is a controversial thing that I have many qualms with so I think a lot of people have issues with that but long story short it was. Put on the ballot and it passed by the slimmest of margins I mean we're talking like 50.2 to 49.8 percent or something like that I can't remember the exact numbers. So don't quote me on that but it was it was basically like down to like they had to count every single vote like under. You know it came down to like less than 100000 votes. Um, so it was incredibly close and but it passed it passed and prior to that there were people that were in favor of it. You know experts I guess you might call them biologists. Whatever that were in favor of it and there were also some that were against it and and there are complex reasons as to why they were for and against it. Um, but I think what this has led to is a we did reintroduce wolves two months ago in Colorado there's now 10 wolves that have been reintroduced. Um. Through this through this initiative and another you know 10 plus that are planned to be reintroduced over the next year um in addition to the 2 wolves that were or at least 2 known wolves that were already in the state that had migrated down from Wyoming. Um.

28:44.99
Arthur Lefo
So a lot of there's a lot of really really interesting and really really challenging times ahead for Colorado in terms of conservation and figuring out where wolves may or may not fit in in the state.

29:03.32
aaronmannes
That's interesting and there's a lot. There's a like you said there's the city the city folk that are voting on issues that really probably won't in this case won't affect them and they're living within Denver and and the wolves are introduced.

29:14.30
Arthur Lefo
Correct correct.

29:19.21
aaronmannes
If I heard right or read right on the on the west side of the rockies Rocky Mountain National Park right? Like northwest.

29:26.60
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, gross west. It's actually fairly close to Denver. It's just west of the continental divide so imit county grand county were the 2 counties that were releasing wolves in um, which is you know, roughly an hour west of Denver so I mean these wolves wolves cover.

29:28.62
aaronmannes
Got you? okay.

29:43.35
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

29:43.52
Arthur Lefo
Ah, huge, high ground and right now there's only 22 of them in the in the or sorry 12 of them in the whole state and we should be seeing some pups in the next two months because this is the mating season. Um.

29:58.51
Arthur Lefo
And you know they will disperse. They will start covering more ground they will start gaining territory probably over the majority of the State. Um, and and the reality is that yeah the majority of people who voted for the reintroduction are people who live in Urban areas. And the majority of people who voted against it are people who are actually in the thick of it in terms of living alongside them. So It's It's created this really um tense dynamic between both sides.

30:24.94
aaronmannes
Um.

30:28.73
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

30:30.50
smacey
Yeah I'm sure we could do an entire episode on this took to kind of put a bow on it. What would you to for people who are curious where would you maybe send them to get all sides of the story.

30:35.15
aaronmannes
Yeah.

30:37.72
Arthur Lefo
Definitely yeah.

30:50.50
smacey
And to make their own I guess decision in their own head if they're just curious about ethical dilemmas like this some people are but it's important that you explore you know it's tough right? because I'm sure you have an emotional investment in a particular side of it. But I do think it's important.

30:56.21
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

31:02.91
Arthur Lefo
Um.

31:05.40
Arthur Lefo
I Do I do I do but I feel like I've removed myself from that mostly and I I can accept the fact that there are things that I personally disagree with that that should be Okay, um, but you know.

31:18.91
smacey
Well said.

31:23.99
Arthur Lefo
Um, long story short if if anyone wants to kind of find out more about this. Um, if you want to read or watch some videos that are more on the pro wolf side. There's a organization called the Rocky Mountain Wolf project. Um.

31:40.99
smacey
Okay.

31:44.11
Arthur Lefo
A great organization. There's some really really awesome videos and resources on there to kind of give insight into you know why wolves um may belong in Colorado and. If you're looking to read sides against it I don't know of any 1 source that you know might oppose it to the extent that I mean a lot of a lot of places do I would I would just Google to you know articles published by you know. I don't know steamboat or you know any any 1 of the rural mountain towns in Colorado if you if you look up wolves if if most media on wolves is negative. Um, that's just the fact of the matter or you can just read Facebook comments I mean.

32:35.40
smacey
Um, right.

32:36.12
aaronmannes
Um.

32:37.54
Arthur Lefo
Fact of the matter is that that's that's where a lot of the you know, honest and raw emotions and opinions come out and you know just was just going on like the Colorado parson wildlife instagram and you reference any post that might mention deer or elk or wolves you know, um.

32:41.72
smacey
Good sample size there right.

32:55.95
Arthur Lefo
There's generally a slew of comments of people disagreeing. Um none of them are very productive and a lot of them are you know, very bantery but at the end of the day. There's There's really not one good source that like opposes wolves as a whole. Um.

32:58.89
aaronmannes
Are.

32:59.31
smacey
Um, right.

33:15.90
Arthur Lefo
Because I don't think there's you know it's a lot of that is rooted in in ideology that isn't applicable through science. It's just like a perspective of how things should be and and that doesn't mean that they're wrong right? I think at the end of a year

33:30.43
aaronmannes
Do.

33:32.73
smacey
Right? It's Socio environmental which is very interesting. Ah.

33:35.36
Arthur Lefo
But great wildlife along for keyboard.

33:35.83
aaronmannes
Just say a yes no question Arthur is there a way for humans wolves and cattle livestock deer elk everyone to do what they're supposed to do like just every I don't I want say everyone get along because some of the elk.

33:53.65
Arthur Lefo
Yes, I mean we we need to start with people getting along but ah, which is the first task but ah, the answer is yes, but it's difficult and in a world in a world where we have.

33:54.76
aaronmannes
Are not going to get along. And yeah.

33:57.49
smacey
Very true.

34:06.37
aaronmannes
Probably takes money and effort.

34:11.60
Arthur Lefo
Less and less wild spaces and more and more human encroachment on wild spaces. Um, it's difficult to give animals like wolves who need a lot of space. Um the opportunity to do their thing without being interrupted by our own. Interference in the natural world but there are ways to coexist with wolves as ranchers that doesn't mean that there aren't going to be issues or depredation events. But there are a lot of resources and tools that have been in development to help mitigate that and reduce that significantly. Um.

34:32.73
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

34:50.70
Arthur Lefo
You know I personally buy beef from a ranch that's wolf friendly in io and I have it shipped to my door because they implement methods to coexist with wolves around their ranch. Um, it's an all- women run ranch um, or 7 sisters and 2 ecologists and. And they do things right? It's called alder spring ranch. Um.

35:08.90
smacey
What's the Ranch name. Cool. Yeah, it's it's It's really interesting. It's difficult to get people to buy into a protocol that isn't the path of least resistance That's just unfortunate, right? like evolution.

35:25.53
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

35:25.92
smacey
Has programmed us to to take the path of least effort right? It's it's very difficult to rally everybody to to do a hard thing. It's hard enough getting ourselves to do a hard thing. Ah I'd be interested Aaron I'm sitting here thinking I'd be interested to hear what jad.

35:30.57
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

35:44.14
smacey
Have to say on this Jud Davenport who he had on who's a wolf naturalist who actually lives in Denver um, maybe I'll message him jad is the wickedest dude ever. We did a podcast with him if you're curious, go back and listen to it. Um.

35:49.66
aaronmannes
Um.

35:49.74
Arthur Lefo
I haven't met him but I've heard of him.

35:52.38
aaronmannes
The.

35:57.57
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah I was.

36:01.67
smacey
Yeah, Jad is really awesome and he knows so much you know so much and again like we're talking that spends so much time with biologists spends so much time with his own eyes writing recording researching pen and paper things he notices. It's just wild. But so to avoid getting bogged down in this.

36:18.13
aaronmannes
Yeah I have like 4 more questions about wolves. But I'll stop I'll stop Arthur all I'll message you on the side. Yeah yeah, ah.

36:20.21
smacey
Let's let's move on appreciate I Know appreciate the insight though.

36:25.77
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, we we we can be talking about this for like well over two hours if we get.

36:31.56
smacey
And I recognize that and unfortunately I have to be the bad guy. So everybody who wanted to hear more about wolves I'm really sorry you can message Arthur like a 3 hour and it's just all over the place. No, it would be fun I agree. Ah.

36:37.24
aaronmannes
We're not going to do ah a Joe Rogan long form like a 3 hour podcast yeah Yeah, yeah, but but Seth's going to wrangle us.

36:40.81
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, special Ed I mean that'd be fun.

36:48.42
smacey
But let's let's move on but but I'm going to ruin the fun I wanted to get back to. You know you you used the word traction early in the interview when I started gaining traction. Do you think that's something you once you have traction you have it or are you always gaining traction. So in other words, if you're gaining traction right now.

36:57.76
Arthur Lefo
Yes.

37:07.79
smacey
What does that look like in your career is you're a more advanced intermediate type thing.

37:12.24
Arthur Lefo
Um, you know it's fun. It's funny because my perspective of that has evolved over time. You know at first you know I think there's a natural for better for worse probably for worse a natural focus that we put on. You know, reaching certain milestones in terms of where our posts. How are they perform or how our account is performing or this or that right and for me like a huge milestone that I just like really cared about for a long time was like and I may have even mentioned it. Um. On our podcast. The first one. Um I don't remember where exactly I was then but you know getting to 10000 followers was a huge like leap. Um and you know upon hitting that you know fictional number that really doesn't mean much beyond just.

37:57.87
smacey
Um.

38:05.48
Arthur Lefo
Having a number on your screen. Um, you know I felt some sort of some sort of validation at the time which I realized wasn't really meaningful quite quickly. Um and and and that same validation so to say has has only diminished over time as.

38:15.52
smacey
Um, you know.

38:24.11
Arthur Lefo
I Gain more quote Unquote traction. Um, at least in the original meaning of the term that I focused on back when I started photography right because I just wanted to have my work get noticed right and to know like hey like people actually care About. Stuff I'm sharing about and relate to it and feel connected to the places I'm in because of it and may feel inspired by places that they maybe will never have the privilege of visiting thanks to some of the stuff I'm sharing right.

38:56.35
smacey
Um, right.

38:59.46
Arthur Lefo
Now as that's evolved and as you know my reach and followers and whatever traction as I may have called it back in the day has grown. Um I think we realize that the real impact is elsewhere right? and that um the way. How many likes your photo gets or how many followers you have isn't really what's going to determine that and you know the real things that really do matter as conservationists in in my case because ah, really, the only reason I do what I do is to inspire people to. Protect these places. Um, you know that a lot of that lies elsewhere and that Instagram isn't paying the bills and I mean sure it's a great tool to spread ideas and spread. You know, maybe trips.

39:42.67
aaronmannes
Are.

39:51.17
aaronmannes
Are.

39:56.92
Arthur Lefo
Like I'm planning now. But at the end of the day. That's not that's not it right? And there's so much more to it whether it be bringing people into these places or whether it be you know, ah creating just on a personal level creating a foundation for yourself. That's. That's sustainable so that regardless of your level of impact you can continue doing this in the way that's meaningful to yourself. Um, for some people that might be as I mentioned I made a reference earlier that might be you know working. A.

40:19.57
smacey
Yes.

40:28.89
Arthur Lefo
You know a 9 to 5 and spending their weekends exploring and sharing these places and that impact is just as important in my eyes as someone who decides to do it full time like a psycho like I do um you know, um, and.

40:43.51
aaronmannes
Um.

40:45.21
Arthur Lefo
There's There's really no right way to approach it at the end of the day it comes down to the impact you're having the people you're inspiring, um the and and and the fact and the honestly in the simplest of forms just like enjoying it yourself enjoying it yourself and that's why.

41:01.21
smacey
Um, right.

41:04.33
Arthur Lefo
I mentioned I mentioned all the time that I'm a nature lover first because at the end of the day We don't go out there too I don't go out there at least and I try to encourage people not to in order to just get a photo right and to set out with something in mind that they want to capture. That's not my approach.

41:22.20
aaronmannes
Are.

41:23.70
Arthur Lefo
Photography that never has been um to me. It's more about going out there finding the space and the time to be present. Um, which sometimes it's you know, being present on your own and really just.

41:32.70
aaronmannes
Yep.

41:39.29
Arthur Lefo
You know, feeling everything that's going around on around you and in nature and wilderness um and sometimes it's you know having people around you and helping connect those people to those places and feeling connected to them as a result right? and and and and fostering that so it's.

41:52.10
aaronmannes
Um.

41:57.85
Arthur Lefo
Traction really is just how much impact and how many dominoes you can knock over which getting lights on Instagram likes on Instagram or getting follows isn't really productive for you know people see photos and they scroll right past them after 5 seconds you know.

42:14.51
aaronmannes
Are.

42:15.88
Arthur Lefo
Most people don't even read the caption. Um, that's not impact.

42:19.70
smacey
Right.

42:21.28
aaronmannes
Yeah I Love what you just said and it something came up the other day. Ah and it just reminds me I mean early on I recognized you can go out for a photo. Let's say a great horned owl. There's there's one spotted and you're sitting there and that's what you're hoping for like that's what's in your head.

42:33.43
Arthur Lefo
Um.

42:38.90
aaronmannes
The picture in your mind is is I want this great horned owl to come out and then some Fox runs across and like that's the photo and there was no inkling in your mind of this special event that's going to happen this sort of like secret plan b of the universe that came out and gave you this. It could be a. Great blue heron. Ah ah free Baltimore oriole that shows up right in front of you that you just had no clue that that was going to be there despite what you were hoping for and I got into a little tiff on social media. Believe it or not with someone.

42:59.90
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah, um, if.

43:06.59
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

43:15.20
aaronmannes
Because they were going to a very well-known place that everyone from New York city goes to to photograph short eared owls and I've been there 3 times in 4 years ah and ah I mean it's it's not to say that I won't do something like that. But all I said was It's kind of like going to the zoo like and and it wasn't a bad thing like you know what you're going to get It's almost a guarantee that these oves are going to be there and you're shoulder to shoulder with hundreds of other photographers that have been sitting there all day and all I said was that's not fun for me.

43:43.40
Arthur Lefo
Why the word.

43:49.40
aaronmannes
Like isn't it more fun to go out and search and not know what you're going to see and it it just kind of presents itself to you or you find an owl on your own and you're by yourself with it and you're like having this moment. Ah I just said like there's 2 kinds of wildlife photographers. The ones that want the photo and the ones that want to actually. In nature and experience nature and I meant no offense by it. Ah, but no and there's nothing wrong with either 1 right? There's just 2 there's very just 2 different approaches and and some like 1 and some like the other and some find i'm.

44:12.62
Arthur Lefo
Um, oh there's nothing wrong with either 1 as long as you're respecting the animals.

44:23.56
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, there's a spectrum I mean I myself as someone who considers himself a nature photographer first I've been to situations where like I knew what I was going to find or like I knew that there was 1 specific animal that I was very likely to find.

44:25.32
smacey
Um, you don't think that's a spectrum.

44:28.18
aaronmannes
Yeah I'm sure it's a spectrum.

44:35.38
aaronmannes
Are right.

44:41.92
Arthur Lefo
Um, and I have stood you know shoulder to shoulder I mean ah some some trips you go on you know, um the wildlife trips you go on I mean people who just come to the lodge I work at in Alaska like you know you're going to see bears. But that being said, we also don't have that approach where like.

44:56.74
aaronmannes
Um.

44:59.49
Arthur Lefo
You know we do take a very adventurous approach and and and kind of have the freedom as guides to go where we feel might be the most interesting or might provide the best you know encounters and it's It's such a dynamic place. It's a little different but all that to say that like yeah I think everyone you know myself included you know the most advanced photographers or you know. Dedicated I Guess you should say um and and some of the most amateur Both have a spectrum they fall on and I think both have been to to encounters that would be classified as either one of those types of situations right? like.

45:22.80
aaronmannes
Are.

45:34.25
aaronmannes
Yeah, of course and and and that's not what I'm saying that you have to pick one or the other I'm just saying there are these both ends of the spectrum and one to me is like you're saying more enjoyable in terms of the whole experience and nature there.

45:42.18
Arthur Lefo
Are. Power.

45:53.17
aaronmannes
It's just like a beautiful surprise like when you don't know what exactly is going to happen. There's there's more opportunity to be exhilarated and like oh my like I can't believe that happened today versus the other where you're like expecting it and and maybe that animal that's supposed to be. There isn't there.

45:56.60
smacey
Right? I think.

45:57.30
Arthur Lefo
Ah, yeah.

46:06.86
Arthur Lefo
And.

46:12.33
aaronmannes
And you're just deflated like so there's like more of that reward potential than like I know that's going to be there and it is there. That's exciting versus I don't know what's going to happen and oh my gosh This thing happened you know it's just in a very interesting philosophy and and both ways are great like.

46:14.35
smacey
Um, gray.

46:17.22
Arthur Lefo
Now.

46:27.67
smacey
Um, right.

46:32.17
aaronmannes
Course we all want wonderful photo and there's a guaranteed animal that you have not seen before and you're treating it with respect and you can go there and there's a good percent chance that you're going to see it. Wonderful! wonderful.

46:40.82
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

46:41.59
smacey
Right? What you're talking about is novelty right? like if it's your first time driving to go see those shorteared owls and you've never seen an owl like that's that's a novel experience right.

46:53.80
aaronmannes
Um, awesome. Yeah.

46:56.99
smacey
But if you do it 3 4 times and you know the landscape it ceases to become as exciting because you you know what? you're anticipating or you you just come to you. You come to know what to expect right? It's it's adding or putting yourself in a situation where there's ah where there's novelty.

47:04.84
aaronmannes
Um.

47:05.59
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

47:07.93
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

47:13.82
aaronmannes
Are right.

47:15.88
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, that's you know that's that's a really um, awesome way to put it. Not gonna lie and I've never thought of it using that term specifically novelty. But.

47:15.92
smacey
That really gets the brain going right.

47:23.49
aaronmannes
Yeah.

47:29.63
smacey
Well for example, you know you're going to see bears but you don't know if you're going to see mom and cubs. Maybe you see mom and cubs three days in robe. You don't know if she's gonna nurse grit. There's always there has to be a novel thing. That's why the zoo would be boring hates.

47:31.85
Arthur Lefo
And right.

47:37.14
aaronmannes
Um.

47:37.86
Arthur Lefo
Right? or. I Think like what you're saying like novelty at the end of the day as Wildlife Photographers really drives us regardless of how what kind of encounter we end up in to see an animal I think novelty is is personally at least speaking for myself.

47:45.21
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

48:01.52
Arthur Lefo
Like that's what drives me right is those new experiences is those you know maybe I've spent three months working at this lodge in Alaska but it's that morning where a bear walks right in front of a stunning orange glowing sunrise with the perfect reflection that I'm like holy crap like this is happening. You know what I mean um and and.

48:14.90
aaronmannes
Um.

48:15.30
smacey
Um, a.

48:17.42
smacey
Right? There's so many variables.

48:19.81
aaronmannes
Um.

48:21.53
Arthur Lefo
Right? And and but then I could be so standing at ah at an encounter like a day or even later that day where a bear is just grazing in a patch of grass and I'm like I've seen this happen 150 times and that novelty isn't there whereas like the first time you stand in the grass you know twenty five yards from a wild brown bear just grazing you are.

48:34.88
aaronmannes
Um.

48:41.60
Arthur Lefo
Having the best time of your life. Um, say that it's still not amazing every time but like there that that element of like Wow Definitely fades naturally so you know and I think that by approaching things from this standpoint where you are a little bit more spontaneous and not setting expectations and.

48:42.72
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

48:42.95
smacey
Um, right.

48:47.86
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

48:57.41
smacey
That's just it.

48:58.58
aaronmannes
Um, and the joy.

48:58.85
Arthur Lefo
And just going out just to like hey let's just go out and enjoy and see what happens and thinking back to my you know 2 of the best encounters I've ever had in my life which were ironically now that I think about it as I'm starting to talk about it. Those 2 encounters were within you know a couple hundred yards of each other. Um, in yellowstone, Both of those encounters were completely spontaneous encounters that we were not looking for these animals and we got a completely different animal that completely rocked our world and ended up being you know, still to this day top Five Wildlife Encounters I've ever had.

49:29.14
aaronmannes
Um, yep.

49:33.26
aaronmannes
So cool. It's like it's like me landing in Colorado and seeing a magpie for the first time and everyone's like those things suck and I'm like what like they look so they seem so smart and beautiful like we don't have birds like that. Yeah.

49:34.39
smacey
Yeah, yeah.

49:40.32
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah, yeah, they're beautiful Have they curated very underrated. Yeah.

49:48.92
smacey
Um, yeah.

49:49.42
aaronmannes
I mean but it's just and I could take you from Alaska and bears to see baby plovers and the shoreline of Connecticut I guaranteed you'd be like whoa like this is cool like let's get. Let's get some photos like.

49:59.69
Arthur Lefo
Yeah I mean that was like me this morning and it's ironic because I grew up here right? and my parents lived near the beach and I went on I've been going on Beach walks every morning and um, you know as a kid I didn't really mind shorebirds.

50:15.88
Arthur Lefo
And this morning I'm walking and I'm just like you know watching the waves as they roll over the sand and picking up shells and finding stuff on the beach and I see these I don't even know what kind of birds and maybe they were plovers Honestly, they may have been plovers. Um, and and I just I was like whoa those Bris are so cool.

50:26.26
aaronmannes
Oh. Are.

50:33.20
Arthur Lefo
You know what? I mean and I like laid on the ground with my iphone I didn't even have my camera and like put it on 3 x and was just like opening these little plovers or whatever they might be um I'm not a bird nerd but you know ah I loved it.

50:37.53
smacey
Are.

50:42.18
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

50:47.49
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah.

50:49.54
Arthur Lefo
Even though I've lived I grew up here right? and I never noticed these little birds who took interest in them but suddenly it's novel right? It has an element of of Wow I've never noticed this. It's new. It's fun.

50:54.78
aaronmannes
Um, right.

50:55.85
smacey
Right? Where this can get into trouble where this can get you into trouble though. The desire for novelty is when you hit a roadblock you know and in let's say working on a website or.

50:57.92
aaronmannes
Very cool.

51:14.00
smacey
Brainstorming an idea and you need to move on to the next thing for it to remain exciting you kind of get snagged the passion dies. This is a novel anymore I need to do something else. That's why there's something you said for showing up and doing the same boring thing.

51:14.29
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah, um.

51:21.90
aaronmannes
Um.

51:32.78
smacey
Like if you're able to sit through boredom and continue to do things that you've done a million times I think that eventually makes you elite at what you're doing how many unfinished songs right.

51:38.39
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

51:42.40
aaronmannes
Yeah to bring it back to the to the music stuff. Um Arthur I just well yeah and and and just the ability to I mean when you write a song. Do you know how and record a song. Do you know how many times you're playing and singing the same thing that you all and it's from yourself like.

51:57.18
Arthur Lefo
Um, it's are I' you crazy.

52:01.78
aaronmannes
There's you give me my favorite song in the world and if I try to record it like I'm going to hate that song by the end of the time like so there there is a superpower for songwriters that get stuff out and make albums and are able to play because it's not just what we hear like that 1 time like oh that's a cool song next like it's.

52:06.37
Arthur Lefo
You are.

52:13.00
Arthur Lefo
Half.

52:20.51
aaronmannes
Oh that's a cool song that they did a hundred to a thousand times in a row to get it right.

52:23.45
Arthur Lefo
Know it's It's as someone who as I mentioned music is one of my other passions and I did have a phase in my life where I thought I was going to be a producer in a deej and I I meddled with production and I can attest to that it drives you crazy you hear this.

52:24.48
smacey
Um, right.

52:39.35
aaronmannes
Um, crazy. Yeah, um.

52:40.81
Arthur Lefo
To the point that you can't even hear it the same way like and I think we kind of get that with editing photos too right? like you look at a photo for so long and you mess with so many things and you add all these gradients and all this and that and eventually you're like what am I even looking at you know and you like you have to put it down at some point. And just like reset. But yeah people who can do that and and keep producing top notch content whether it be photography whether it be music whether it be um, painting so like whatever it might be whatever creative medium I think it's It's a gift for people to be able to.

53:16.96
smacey
Right? Even just if you committed to posting every single day that is mundane. So I think people who are very who who are very have their sights set on seeing something.

53:17.97
Arthur Lefo
To do that.

53:21.86
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah, it's really hard.

53:24.90
aaronmannes
Um.

53:33.69
smacey
To the end or to becoming a professional at it and not just being an amateur are able to show up and do the boring routine and not get sucked into the fantasy of the next exciting thing right? I think that's important to.

53:48.15
Arthur Lefo
Am.

53:50.16
smacey
To be aware of if you find yourself constantly going to the next thing and having a lot of unfinished projects right? It could be perfectionism but often it's not like there are people who aren't perfectionists who don't finish things and I would wager that it's because it's lost the novelty factor. So.

53:56.14
Arthur Lefo
Me now.

54:05.25
aaronmannes
Are.

54:05.44
Arthur Lefo
Yeah I think that's some.

54:09.33
smacey
Kind of need to find a way to or a protocol or something to allow us to continue to continue to you know to do the boring things and that's sometimes where it creeps into your mind. You're like why am I I again.

54:12.47
aaronmannes
Yeah.

54:19.71
Arthur Lefo
Memory.

54:25.34
smacey
Again again lifting weights I mean you don't change the way you lift weights but you get stronger.

54:28.63
Arthur Lefo
That's that's some yeah no definitely. That's that's some mamba mentality stuff. You know you're referencing. It's like it's the perseverance. It's the it's the repetition. It's the it's the going through the.

54:29.87
aaronmannes
Um, what's true. Yeah yeah.

54:42.41
smacey
Um, right black.

54:45.48
Arthur Lefo
Tough boring repetitive phases of whatever you're chasing which is ananimous right? like regardless of what you do? yeah just showing up and doing.

54:52.26
aaronmannes
Are.

54:53.10
smacey
And often that's just showing up though right often. That's just showing up I think I've said it before like showing up puts you out of 95% of people showing up every day just showing even walking into a gym and leaving I mean you're still doing more than.

55:02.38
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah, you're at least getting in your car driving there walking in like and yeah, you know you're you're doing so mentally like that's.

55:08.51
aaronmannes
So.

55:12.17
smacey
95% of people.

55:14.49
aaronmannes
Doing a lap and leaving you did yeah.

55:18.28
smacey
Um, yeah.

55:21.12
smacey
At the very least you're building the identity of somebody who's committed to something and it's taking you in that example, taking you away from feeling that you need to lift a certain amount or you need to get a certain amount of likes on a photo just the act of doing and showing up.

55:22.20
Arthur Lefo
It's the repetition. It's the process. Who.

55:37.27
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah.

55:40.59
smacey
Perpetuates and it that circles back to what you were saying when we were talking on the second go-around of traction. You know how you were talking about in the beginning it was about if maybe I heard you incorrectly but in the very beginning it was like likes were very important follows are very important and those bring there. Bring opportunities I understand that but it's it. There's a law it's called Goodhart's law I had to pull it up because I didn't want to butcher the quote. It's when a measure becomes a target it ceases to be a good measure and I love that quote because.

56:00.30
Arthur Lefo
Here.

56:16.87
smacey
It speaks to when you focus on us on something you can measure with a number it overshadows the importance of anecdotal experience. So for example, let's say to use the weight loss thing if if you're measuring that you need to. Hundred and seventy pounds and you weigh 200 and you've been running for months and you've been eating clean for months and the scale is not budging if you're using that number as a measure of success. That's not very good but maybe in the meantime you've been sleeping great your mood is way better.

56:41.86
aaronmannes
Um.

56:50.16
aaronmannes
Yeah, well.

56:54.69
smacey
You know all these other things. There's just you can really you look better. You feel better. You have more energy you can. You're more mobile but the scale isn't budging in. That example, what a terrible metric right? or you alter your behavior.

56:54.84
aaronmannes
You look better. You feel better. Your pants fit better. Yeah.

56:54.93
Arthur Lefo
Are ah.

57:04.62
Arthur Lefo
They are.

57:06.74
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

57:10.59
smacey
It's inauthentic solely to hit a target How often do we see that online. You know I need to go viral I need to go viral and then you stray from who you are right? You game the system the shift the focus shifts from genuinely improving to simply just achieving the metric and I think you can get lost.

57:14.42
aaronmannes
Um, right.

57:26.23
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah I mean that's it's a good reminder to just you know, stay true to yourself and and do things that and that matter to you personally and that that inspire you and.

57:28.29
smacey
Ah, really do.

57:43.10
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah.

57:43.24
smacey
Um, right? because like what a shame to lose. Yeah what a shame to lose sight of the original purpose right.

57:47.35
Arthur Lefo
Regardless of the metrics right.

57:53.12
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, which I think for most of for most people I can't speak for all but like at least for me, it's you know, just sharing things you love and.

58:05.89
smacey
Right? And that's what I'm saying I think like numbers and and Milestones and likes and plays should be a byproduct that should be a bonus right? The the the yeah this the celebration should be I created something new to the best of my ability.

58:05.92
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

58:15.21
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, if you if you get it and yeah. Yeah.

58:24.16
aaronmannes
Yeah, or the slightest bit new like like Arthur was saying with I mean he sees 150 bears and I don't want to say boring but you get used to it. You get numb to it. But then you like how can I improve this.

58:25.81
smacey
Even if you don't share that. That's an amazing feat.

58:42.16
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

58:42.42
aaronmannes
Ba experience for myself I'm going to move over here I know where the sun rises I know where typically they're where they are in the morning. Let me get that perfect sunrise and let me elevate this photo for that novelty I think that that becomes the next step when you spend a lot of time in nature with certain.

58:49.72
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah.

58:51.63
smacey
Um, right.

59:01.52
aaronmannes
Areas when people are getting into wildlife I Always say find a small spot of woods and and know it know it like the back of your hand you you don't have to go far. You don't have to keep searching on ebird to.

59:10.61
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

59:16.21
aaronmannes
Go to this state park in this state park and this state you're you're not going to find anything you're chasing sit in a small piece of woods and if it if there's 1 woodpecker get the best woodpecker shot you can get spent a month trying to get the best woodpecker. That's that's to me the the process and the.

59:17.36
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

59:27.65
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah.

59:27.66
smacey
Are a.

59:35.81
aaronmannes
The novelty and the enjoyment in something simple versus reaching everywhere throwing spaghetti everywhere trying to find what what it is that sticks you know.

59:43.64
Arthur Lefo
Um I am gay right.

59:44.57
smacey
My first my favorite My my first wildlife shot was a chipmunk and it's still one of my favorites to this day just like a little chippy behind a little piece of wood I printed out I hung it in my room like.

59:52.68
Arthur Lefo
Oh I know the father I know the shot That's a great shot that shot I mean you see you mentioned it and like it's in my it's in my brain you know I mean but.

59:53.12
aaronmannes
That's that's a great one now and Seth you mentioned it.

01:00:04.24
aaronmannes
Yeah, you mentioned it briefly but keeping a protocol I think is important and Arthur you made me laugh when because I was there too and you probably remember this very well is that when you're starting off and you're getting a little bit of attention and a little bit of traction. You get to a thousand followers.

01:00:04.53
smacey
Good. Yes.

01:00:24.10
aaronmannes
I'm gonna do a giveaway I'm gonna do a free print to the first people like you're very excited with those things and you're you're giving back because you feel like the attraction and appreciation. But you don't see many giveaways for someone that's like I got to 42000 followers I'm go do a giveaway right? it's.

01:00:42.20
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:00:42.74
aaronmannes
It's all the it's all the earlier people I feel like with yeah, it's novel right? That's what I'm saying but keeping that protocol maybe like every 5 I'm going a I'm going to give back or like keeping keeping a structure that keeps you going and keeps you true to the excitement of.

01:00:46.27
smacey
Um, it's novel right.

01:00:55.90
smacey
Um, yeah.

01:00:55.38
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, oh. Yeah I think something you said just just a second ago that really you know and I'll be completely honest, really sort of hit home with me is this concept of of chasing says.

01:01:00.72
aaronmannes
Of where it is.

01:01:14.71
smacey
Um, a.

01:01:14.77
aaronmannes
Um.

01:01:16.90
Arthur Lefo
You know in this in what you were saying just like sitting there and and learning right and like you know and and the reason why that hit home for me is because I think in many ways I started off as and still to this day in many ways am sort of a chaser right. I Chased those new Novel experiences. There's something about that newness that draws me in whether it be like seeing bears in a new place or or this or that and and this in my personal journey is something that I've been coming to terms with a little bit more.

01:01:33.81
aaronmannes
Um.

01:01:52.69
Arthur Lefo
A little bit more recently and and that's realizing that like the real value just like what you said the real value is is not in in the chase right? It's it's in it's in the novelty and you can find novelty in. Almost anything it all comes down to how you approach things right? and you know whether that be going on new trips which I think at the end of the day. Don't we all want to go to new places and experience the far corners of the world I Think that's only human but I think it's equally important to realize that.

01:02:13.12
aaronmannes
You.

01:02:30.55
Arthur Lefo
You can have the same level of fulfillment and novelty I guess you should say from from doing very simple things right? and and finding you know like you said spending a lot of time.

01:02:41.40
aaronmannes
Um.

01:02:45.61
Arthur Lefo
And the same place I mean earlier today I was photographing peacocks at this abandoned zoo that used to be the Miami metro zoo on the island where I grew up and you know there's these peacocks all over the place and I've been there a million times as a kid and I always like these peacocks but today I sat there. And I just sat for 3 hours with peacocks rolling around me and this one big male was strutting his stuff and trying to like. Back up to me and like you know I was between him and his ladies and he was the little he was getting a little fightsy but like I was just sitting there right and he was putting on this show that like would have never happened if you just like were. Walking around chasing trying to get photos right? You just sit there and I think that's sort of like the lost art of of wildlife photography that that is just sitting there and being bored and letting things unfold and and and yeah just letting nature.

01:03:30.77
aaronmannes
Um.

01:03:35.29
aaronmannes
Um.

01:03:39.28
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:03:48.96
aaronmannes
Um.

01:03:49.17
Arthur Lefo
On the show. However, slow or fast or whatever it might be and there's a film I watched recently that I'd like to just suggest to everyone that's listening um, maybe you guys have watched it. But it's a french photographer that I'm incredibly inspired by his name is Vincent Manir Muir I don't know how you would say that in french it's a val song mu yeah um, and he has a film that's it's subtitled in english but it's it's spoken in french it's called the velvet queen yeah, and and that that film really embodies.

01:04:19.71
aaronmannes
Oh yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.

01:04:21.65
smacey
We've both seen it. Yeah.

01:04:27.69
Arthur Lefo
The element of waiting and patience and perseverance and really immersing yourself in a landscape and how that translates into these moments of novelty and magic that as photographers turn into our favorite images too.

01:04:39.76
smacey
Yeah, that movie's really good at showcasing No Rush slow I have nowhere to be I know we have places to be in our busy lives. But in this instance it was you know he's not sprinting up the mountain. He's spending time with the Tibetan kids right.

01:04:42.10
aaronmannes
Um.

01:04:45.00
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

01:04:53.93
Arthur Lefo
No yeah, just sit there until you know we weren't ruining Fred.

01:04:58.94
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

01:04:59.81
smacey
It's just no rush no hurry until it's time to do what I need to do exactly? Yeah I think that's a very balanced place to come from.

01:05:09.60
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah, yeah, yes.

01:05:12.26
aaronmannes
There's a trend with Horse therapy now hear me Out. It's it's when you stand in a stable and if you are balanced and not anxious and not nervous. The horse will graze around you but they are herd Animals. So if you are anxious or wound up or angry. They sense it and they flee they go as far away from you as possible. So It's just a very quick picture of like are you well or do you got you got stuff going on and I always think about that when you. When you're chasing and like walking through the woods. It's it's rare like you're Approaching. You're you're a predator like things are fleeing from your presence whereas when you sit. It's quiet and you might think this is never going to happen but nature kind of Unfolds back.

01:05:49.70
Arthur Lefo
Um, New York yeah

01:06:02.47
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah.

01:06:03.70
aaronmannes
On to you and then you're like oh there's a there's a raccoon right? there cool like there's there's an otter like that's and it takes time and it feels unproductive. It feels like I'm not going to find anything. Nothing's here I'm not going to find anything but it's it's fighting that urge to go get it.

01:06:05.51
smacey
Um, right.

01:06:22.60
aaronmannes
Versus kind of letting it come.

01:06:22.88
Arthur Lefo
Um, yeah.

01:06:24.57
smacey
Yeah I mean improving your square footage isn't going to improve your chances often if you're already in a spot that's designed for you to win when being get a photo or footage right.

01:06:35.20
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah, and it can take days. It can take like returning day after day and letting the environment get used to you. You know it's true man.

01:06:37.20
Arthur Lefo
Yeah.

01:06:45.16
smacey
And get a trail cam too because then that's inarguable. There are things in this area. There are things in this area that frequent at these times. How do you argue that.

01:06:54.85
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah, trochems are like magic.

01:06:58.11
aaronmannes
Yep, you can't he can't Arthur I have to ask 1 question because I've always loved your editing. You mentioned you are first like a nature enthusiast then a photographer but you never mention you're an artist and.

01:07:00.96
smacey
Um, yeah.

01:07:15.87
aaronmannes
Not to pump your tires too much but from the beginning I've just always loved your editing style. Um and similarly similar similar little early I can't say that word but similarly Ah, there's often this argument between wildlife photography I've had it myself.

01:07:21.80
Arthur Lefo
I Appreciate that far. Perfect.

01:07:26.36
smacey
Are.

01:07:35.68
aaronmannes
With people ah wildlife photography versus enhancing photos Artistic Photos I'm curious your thoughts on that line and your approach to editing photos because it is very unique. It is very artistic I think you put a lot of thought into your your edits and the colors and the look. Um, and it's It's my favorite style of wildlife photography. It lends a little something to me I don't know what it is might just be a personal preference I I Absolutely love it. So I'm just I don't want to not touch on that.

01:08:05.65
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, yeah, um, you know we all take photos for different reasons I think we can start with that. Um, and like I said earlier.

01:08:16.23
aaronmannes
Are.

01:08:22.63
Arthur Lefo
We All have our own personal unique connection to wilderness and I think that whether or not people headed photos or how they edit photos is simply a reflection of that right? I think that's. That's a simple fact and some people might be purists and never touch a photo and just shoot Jpegs or whatever and you know, just let them be um and and others might create drastic. Dramatic Incredibly moody like like night and day edits to what the raw image may have looked like which isn't really where I'm at but also some of my images have been very very drastic so I can't say I've never done it. Um.

01:09:19.75
Arthur Lefo
and and I think that's what makes photography so interesting nowadays right? It's that photography and I talk about this a lot in a lot of my you know workshops and and speeches and whatnot but like photography used to historically be a 1 step process where.

01:09:20.89
aaronmannes
Are you know.

01:09:39.60
Arthur Lefo
You've got a film camera you go out you dial in your settings you expose your image click you take a shot you go home. You develop it. That's your shot and story. Um today it's a 3 step process in my mind.

01:09:58.24
Arthur Lefo
The first step is taking the shot which has gotten easier than ever before cameras nowadays literally do all the work for you. I mean you could shoot on auto iso with subject tracking on and you know. As long as your aperture and whatever and you and you have the the reflex and the eye to compose the shot correctly and and snap it and you know you know how do you work your camera to a certain extent like you'll you'll you'll get a photo It's pretty easy to get a photo today in a way that would have taken a lot of skill. Thirty years ago um now the second step is I think I'll let me fast forward to the third step which is editing right? and I think the second step which is often overlooked is. Choosing the right photo because nowadays. Not only can we take photos but we take thousands of photos and you can come home from a tenement encounter with a wolf like I had in June of 2021 and in 10 minutes you've got 1500 images and you're like.

01:11:09.39
aaronmannes
Are.

01:11:09.48
Arthur Lefo
Then you got to pick the right ones right? because it's not just photos. It's it's which photo has the right light the right sharpness the right eye contact the right pose the right everything to deliver that impact and then once you pick that photo. It's. Taking it to that third step and this is you know to circle back to your question where I think photography gets so fascinating nowadays is that you could be standing shoulder to shoulder with someone taking another image and come home with 2 completely different end results. Um.

01:11:36.33
aaronmannes
Are. Yeah.

01:11:44.47
Arthur Lefo
And so my approach to answer your question. My approach is I go out there and again I have my own connection to wilderness and my own you know emotions that come about from my experience out there experiences out there. Um. I'm really really inspired by pretty much every photo I've shared are moments that like I have been inspired by um, they're of course for some photos that I notice are good photos after the fact but at the end of the day you know in the moment I'm inspired by them and I can remember these moments vividly.

01:12:22.80
Arthur Lefo
In my mind and when I edit photos I do nothing more than simply try to bring a moment to life in the way that I saw and I felt it in that moment. It's as simple as that to me that might sound excessively simplistic to some. The end of the day I've never taken a class on editing I've actually never even watched a Youtube video on editing all I've done is messed around and found out and maybe watched some friends edit right? You learned a lot from watching other people. Edit um you know brooke and eye and Tiffany and John we've all had you know, really fun editing parties where we're just like. Flipping photos are raw editing photos of the same encounter and we're like holy crap like I love how you did that you know what I mean? Um, but at the end of the day. It's bringing out that emotion that like I felt in the moment and how in my mind I remember. Things like the colors things like the lighting and and and putting emphasis on the on the parts of the photo that really bring about emotion to me for how I saw the moment for again, my personal connection to wilderness in that moment and that I think is what makes it. So. So beautiful and so so fascinating right? is that we all have these different perspectives and I mean just to quote some people that have been past guests on this on this show like you know Brooke might have a dramatic contrasty like intense shadows and highlights and you know like real dramatic moody.

01:13:52.72
Arthur Lefo
Approach whereas like for my photos like they might be a little bit more on the you know a little bit more pastel a little bit more saturated a little bit more um you know.

01:14:06.46
Arthur Lefo
Just a different feel I don't even know how to describe it they're they're just different right? and I think that's what makes editing such a an awesome thing and and I think it's my personal opinion is I think it's just kind of a shame to bash it because like.

01:14:07.99
aaronmannes
Um.

01:14:18.81
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

01:14:21.43
Arthur Lefo
There's so much emotion that comes out of editing and that comes out of removing distractions and enhancing lighting and just making a moment feel like how you experienced it? Yeah yeah I mean.

01:14:31.66
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, well said well said again, Nothing yeah Boom Mike Drop yeah.

01:14:34.31
smacey
Um, wow wow that's got to cap the show we could go on. We could going in for a long time. Arthur you're so wellpoken man it's been awesome to see your your career kind of progress from very humble beginnings when we first started talking. Om systems ambassador now and doing workshops and all these cool things on the photographer mindset podcast for the second time that's at the top of the resume but we do appreciate. We do appreciate your time man and um.

01:14:55.90
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, that's what? ah so it's all about two years later yeah thank you for having? um think wild expeditions. Yeah.

01:15:04.31
aaronmannes
Um.

01:15:06.80
smacey
People can check out your new business. What does it think think wild expeditions link is in the episode description If you're interested in checking that out and just once again man it's always a pleasure talking with you whether it's in the virtual flesh here or digitally through Dm. So.

01:15:21.78
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:15:22.59
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, always a pleasure and as always you guys you guys rock you guys keep a really interesting conversation flowing and ask the right questions and it always makes fun, fun podcasts and fun conversations.

01:15:23.82
smacey
Appreciate you having on and so do listeners.

01:15:30.65
aaronmannes
Thank you! We'll wave at you in Alaska this summer so wave back.

01:15:34.95
smacey
Well thank you? Yeah all right till next time guys.

01:15:39.50
Arthur Lefo
Yeah, cool, you better. Cheers.

01:15:43.56
aaronmannes
See ya.