Ways to Keep Photography and Socials FUN with Jason Loftus

Jason Loftus, better known as "Untamed Images by JL" (@untamedimagesbyjl) is a passionate outdoor photographer who captures and shares outdoor experiences through stunning photography. Jason is also the podcast host of "Beyond the Wild" and has experience organizing and running several photography workshops. 

In this episode expect to learn methods to make photography fun again if you're feeling like you've lost the passion you once had, how to avoid burnout, how to have honest conversations with yourself about what you want out of photography, how to properly go about acquiring mentors, and how and when to implement feedback from others.

You can find the "Beyond The Wild" podcast here: https://www.beyondthewildpodcast.com/ and from there you can listen on your preferred streaming service.

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

INTRO:

00:01.24
smacey
Um, hey welcome back to another episode of the photographer mindset podcast I'm your co-host Seth Macey hey we had on Jason Loftus and today's episode was all about how to get back to having fun with photography I said in this episode I feel like a lot of us have lost our way.

00:05.40
aaronmannes
And I'm your co-host Aaron Mannes

00:20.21
smacey
We once Loved has stopped being fun and we talk a lot in this episode about being honest with ourself asking ourselves questions that can allow us to get back to to having fun with with something that was so enjoyable when we begun you know when we begun with it. So If you're somebody who's Struggling. Or feels burnt out or stuck or just doesn't have the same kind of Spark I think this episode is entirely for you.

00:45.17
aaronmannes
Yeah, well said. Ah, if we're not having fun. What are we doing I think I think that's the thing to to dig deep and find out. He's great talking to Jason has a podcast of his own. We're going to talk about that. You can tell when people practice public speaking. How how fluent and coordinated they are with their with their language so it was great to talk to was really interesting I had a good time. Met a new new person. New friend. It seems like.

01:12.29
smacey
Yeah, Jason is great in his podcasts beyond the wild podcast. You can find that in the episode description of our podcast episode here if you're interested in checking that out I think we talked a little bit about it at the end. But yeah, you're going to learn how to ah. Have fun again with your photography. So let's hear word from the sponsor and then get into today's episode.

INTERVIEW:

00:00.00
smacey
Jason thanks for joining us today man really appreciate it. You're a fellow podcaster we were talking to talking a bit about that before we started. What's your podcast called beyond the ah it's ah beyond the the what beyond the wild. That's right.

00:32.59
Jason
Beyond the wild beyond the wild. Yep.

00:33.94
aaronmannes
Panma Beyond the wild.

00:38.61
smacey
For some reason I thought beyond the lens. No no, no beyond the wild I was literally listening to an episode today. So go check that out. We'll talk about more of that more about that in this episode but how can we make photography fun again. Man I feel like ah that's ah, that's a hot issue right now in in today's photography community.

00:48.24
Jason
New boy.

00:56.99
smacey
Feel like a lot of people have kind of lost their way and maybe this deserves an entire episode maybe Aaron we can do that together. But while we're on the topic. How can we make it fun again. Jason what do you think.

00:59.67
Jason
Ripe.

01:07.28
Jason
Well, that's a that's a really good question and I've I've gone through dips and that throughout my time that I've been doing photography and you know ask myself that very same question. You know I mean what? what is the reason I do this, you know and sometimes you get caught up in am I trying to grow a social media account. Am I trying to grow an Instagram do I want a big following there and then you ask yourself? Well what? what does that? do for me, you know? Um I've had lots of folks reach out to me and ask me that question and I I mean I've got a fairly large following not anymore in today's standards but back before reels really took off. You know I had a fairly I have a fairly reasonable following about 65000 followers and um, I've always told people listen those number of followers have never equated to sales right? like or print sold or you know if I get more and more followers I don't necessarily get more and more sales. So as a content creator or a you know photographer. To me. It's like what what are you doing? are you doing this because you're trying to make a living with it. Are you doing it because you get that adrenaline rush from the likes are you doing it because you want to get the attention of some other you know, ah potential job. Um out there through content creation. You know what is your why right? I mean you kind of mentioned that before we started a little bit but um, for me what I've keep come back to Atlanta I mean yeah, all of us want to make a little bit of money with our photography if we can for sure. Um I think we've come to accept the fact that to be just a wildlife. Photographer is almost impossible and nowadays.

02:38.00
Jason
Um, so you're going to have to really? um, you know if you're going to do that and make a living with your camera so to speak you're gonna have to diversify yourself quite a bit you know am I going to do weddings in the offs season am I going to do senior photos am I do family portraits am I going to do. Um, all this other stuff and you know Wildlife's my passion and I get to go do that when I can and I still make a little money with that you know or you know a lot of folks are offering. You know you mentioned doing trips you know doing um, photography tours and things of that Nature. You're seeing a lot of the pros if you will starting to offer quite a few of those options. So. So for me, what keeps it fun is not letting it become a job. You know, not letting it become that. Um that daily grind where I have to go out and create content or I have to go shoot this because somebody wants me to and. It's about remembering that the reason I got into photography is because it's how I clear my head. It's how I ground myself. It's how I spend time in nature Quiet. My head get away from the Grind. You know all the all the stresses that we all feel in day to day Life. You know so.

03:36.48
smacey
The.

03:39.80
Jason
For me, It's a good health check every now and then to say Okay, why am I doing this. That's why let's remember that you know don't get too worked up if you don't get the image that you wanted on this trip or whatever you know, just let's take her for what it is and the fact that I'm blessed and fortunate to be able to get out and do this you know so.

03:53.97
smacey
Yeah I mean in your experience. Do you feel like people spread themselves thin with too many wise what I mean by that is they're they're trying to have it be meditative. They're trying to have it be their full time income. They're trying to have it be their passion project. Do you.

04:07.91
Jason
Yeah, yeah I think that's a right? Yeah, that's a really good point I think that's probably part of it. Um, that would make a lot of sense I have ah a really good friend I Want to mention names. But he's he's a young photographer. He is so.

04:08.85
smacey
You know you're you're in the space I mean you talk to people you know I'm just curious What you think about that.

04:25.60
Jason
Ah driven and I ask him all the time like what like what are you hoping to get from this. You know he's got a couple projects in the irons and the fire that he's working on and he's he gets frustrated right because he's not getting recognized if you will by the reals that he puts up and some of the photography puts up which it's all really good content. But it's like again, it's like I keep asking well if you're doing this because you want likes then you're doing it for the wrong reason if you're doing it because it's a pet project that you want to do and you're hoping that when the project's done that you'll get somebody's attention and be able to maybe publish it or something then just keep doing you. You know the guys that have I've seen that have been super successful that. Is long lasting are the guys that do something that have a pet project like Jake Davis for example if you don't know him revealed in nature. Um, incredible videographer photographer and he's been. You know he he goes out there and he does this pet project. It ends up getting you know some? um. Footage in a series for Bbc wild and or I can't remember if it was Disney or Bbc wild. But um, you know they they bought its footage and it just kind of launches career. So you know there's there's ways to approach things and reasons to do them and I think it's just all about making sure that you. Have a good understanding of what you're doing and why you're doing it and then don't spread yourself too thin. Don't worry about the likes. Don't worry about the other other stuff that could you know become part of don't worry about the my real didn't go viral or whatever you know what? I mean just just do you? You know, be happy with that.

05:47.86
smacey
Right? What's your protocol when you're not having fun out in the field or you know photography's dragging you down I mean I'm going to make an assumption that whether even it's point zero one percent of the time sometimes photography like isn't fun.

05:54.73
Jason
Cat.

06:07.63
smacey
So I'm curious to prevent from something you enjoy so much turning into a life stressor or something negative. Um, what do you do do you step away. Do you dig in more. Do you take time off your phone. What's it for you.

06:13.53
Jason
Right.

06:22.67
Jason
Woo That's a good one. Um I Think for me, it's you know I got I got again I asked myself that why like why am I doing this.. There's plenty of times in the field where as wildlife Photographers we might be camped on an animal. For example, waiting for some behavior to Happen. And I've had multiple times where you're sitting in the rain or whatever it might be and it gets boring and it gets tiresome and you don't even know for sure if that behavior is going to happen. Um I've spent lots of hours sitting On. You know a carcass of an animal with predators that have been hitting it looking for an opportunity. You know I've spent lots of time in the field just going like what am I doing here. You know I could be home I could be hanging out with my kids I could be. You know, spend time with my wife. Whatever it is um and so I think again, it's about what are you trying to accomplish and when you get in those situations I think you got it Sometimes you do just have to say okay look I'm done. I'm going to leave the carcass I'm going to walk away from this opportunity if if it unfolds Great. You know good for everybody else's stuck around but it's not my head's not where it needs to be I'm going to step away and walk away and I've noticed too that with like social media.

07:25.68
smacey
Um, bright.

07:30.62
Jason
I think it's the more and more I do so if anybody that follows me listens to this I mean I do not post as near as often as I used to I might post once a week and I've gotten you know, ah built some bad habits as far as not posting it if as far as if you want to quote unquote grow your you know your ah page.

07:46.50
smacey
Yeah, or good habit for your mental health.

07:48.75
Jason
My focus has gone away right? right? right? No exactly you know that's exactly what I doesn't say I mean I've gone away from worrying so much about trying to grow my account and just continue to share what I love and the passion for doing it and you know it grows a little bit here and there but it's nothing crazy and that's fine I'm okay with that. It's not my goal I'm not my goal is not to create a a bigger platform.

07:50.28
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

08:08.46
Jason
My goal is to continue to do what I'm doing and share what I do and my passion with others and if people find it and they like it. They'll follow and they'll do their thing if they don't that's okay, too. You know so sometimes it's nice to take those breaks from social media and just like I've gone you know 2 three weeks at a time where I just don't even look I don't even go on Instagram don't look at Facebook I don't look at Instagram I don't look at Tiktok.

08:15.70
smacey
So you don't.

08:28.32
Jason
Just go away from it and just forget about it for a while and and every time I come back I feel refreshed and I feel like okay I can go back to posting some stuff and I feel better about everything. So.

08:36.29
smacey
So you don't feel like you need to continually grow your numbers online to continue to push the bar with your photography career.

08:44.29
Jason
No, and ah and this is where it becomes a little bit of a double- edgeged sword right? Let's be real on Instagram Tiktok you know even Facebook for for specific types of accounts and reach. Are very good platforms that we should be. We're crazy if we're not using them to help market right? It's free marketing in a lot of ways so you got to if you're going to be a professional I think you have to use it to some degree to help yourself with marketing and so on. But I think it's it's really about balancing that and what you know what is your strategy for marketing with Instagram and Tiktok or whatever it might be um, you'll never see me marketing much with Tiktok I'm just not the type of or reals I just I'm not that person. You know I'm not the guy that can go out and video myself in the field and think about well I need to get this b rollll and I need to do this and I need to talk about this and you know I go out and I do the shoot and I enjoy myself the end of the day by man, it'd be cool if I had a little video I could share about what happened today instead of just throwing some pictures of but I also know I'm not the guy that's going to think about that and do the work it takes to have that. You know that? um, the content to be able to post. So yeah.

09:47.24
smacey
Right? And that's where teams come in right? We're having a teammate or a building a brand or you know you fill in the gaps with people who want to do those things and who are good at them right.

09:55.51
Jason
Yeah, absolutely, that's a really good point I mean if we can get out in the field with our friends you know Ron and I talk about it Ron Hayes um when we when we're doing podcast stuff and you know it'd be nice to. We're going to do more of this like you know mic ourselves up while we're in the field because we have some of the funniest little conversations and.

09:58.16
aaronmannes
Do.

10:11.80
smacey
Are.

10:14.90
Jason
Little things that are said and you know things that are done that just happen in the moment that we just don't capture and it's just crazy like we're out there. We're doing it. We can mic up and just capture that audio and if it's nothing happened that day. Great use a delete and move on you know, but when you catch those little cool moments those are those would be cool to share with folks and maybe that gives us an opportunity to start to create more of the. You know the reals type content that to help continue to grow like our podcast page and other stuff too. You know so.

10:36.57
smacey
Right? right? I Think what you're talking about is content naturally happening. It's naturally created by something you're and enjoying doing that you would do anyways versus.

10:42.14
Jason
Right? right.

10:48.87
smacey
The other approach which is going out and doing something with an intention with a script with something in mind and I think both ways are valid I think you just have to play a place to your personality which you want to do it doesn't have to be either or right I mean you can have a blend of that sometimes Aaron has a great idea and sometimes things come naturally just for you know. With what we're doing or what's being said.

11:07.10
Jason
Right? Yeah I think that's a key to sorry, go ahead. Aaron.

11:09.97
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, it's ah I was just going to say it's ah it's a tough balance. Um, especially if people have like a day job or family kids. Um, then then you want to you know, spread out and do a podcast. Ah.

11:18.98
smacey
Um.

11:24.67
Jason
Right.

11:24.90
aaronmannes
Then who's editing the podcast then you want to do video who's editing the video then at the end of the week you're like I have twenty extra minutes and where was my passion. Oh I used to spend all this time doing photography now I'm doing all this stuff around photography but not doing the photography and.

11:39.67
Jason
Right.

11:44.75
aaronmannes
That's something I'm struggling with right now too is finding that balance and the desire. Um ah to to actually go out with the little bit of extra time that you do have because you've maybe spread yourself thin through social media like let's make sure the youtubes up-to-day upload this upload that. Find the clips. Yeah, ah, you're you're telling me, you're going to record out in the field and I'm like I'm like oh I have so many of those great ideas. But then it turns into wait now who's got to go through the 3 hours that we were sitting over a carcass where there's that one five minute clip somewhere in the middle.

12:10.35
Jason
See.

12:22.80
aaronmannes
And someone's got to find it then pull it out then stitch it together and it's it's those things like you really have to be super passionate about what you're doing Otherwise it's like it just burns away at you because there's just so many avenues to be like who I'm exhausted.

12:24.59
Jason
Yeah.

12:37.70
Jason
Right? Yeah well and and and you guys all know right? You we see the folks that do it? Well I mean there's guys that it's obvious their passion. They love it. They love doing that stuff in the field and they're good at it. You know and the Instagram and the Tiktok accounts are you know the platforms are you know? um.

12:42.45
aaronmannes
Human.

12:54.57
Jason
Recognizing that right? they're rewarding them for that. Um, it's just it's hard for somebody. That's ah, just a photo guy quote unquote. Um, you know that doesn't have that passion for the video and every time I think about video I think it's cool I see the stuff that people are doing. It's like that's really neat I like it but I have 0 desire to be the person creating it. You know what? I mean. So. I love what you're saying. It's like stay in your lane. Do what you do well and I think everything works out. Um, you do have to play the games with the platforms. There's no question but that's what you know like um, you know Seth said bring somebody in onto the team that has that passion and can help cover that that gap if you will you know so good point.

13:29.40
aaronmannes
yeah yeah I think there's this, there's this swinging pendulum of like you start with your passion. You build your passion, you're doing all the all the work Seth and I are and our good friend Taryn um, but mainly Seth and I are.

13:31.37
smacey
Um, yeah, yeah.

13:46.47
aaronmannes
Ah, 2 wo-man team doing all the stuff that anyone ever sees and that that pendulum gets tough to continue that passion. Hopefully you build it and you with stain so long that then you can add team members. You can add people that can take away some of the the nitty-gritty so you can go back to the passion and then. Just really be a well-oiled machine of of doing what you want to be doing and having people help you people believe in the the company the brand. Whatever it may be um, it is tricky to get to that point I think Seth were right at that peak of like wow we are we are. We're burning oil here. You know. Ah, just trying to get everything done that we want to get done and it's it's a lot between planning trip. You're you're in a similar boat planning trips. What content do we have to put out. We have to put out a podcast. We promised every week we ah guess canceled now what you know like all that little stuff that it it all started with.

14:27.94
Jason
I'm.

14:38.78
Jason
Yeah I feel your pain for sure. Yeah.

14:43.42
aaronmannes
It all started with like oh that's a cool Kingfisher and I'm going to watch it for 3 hours like it all started there. You know and it's just an interesting road. It's fun. It's it's a puzzle at all times. Yeah.

14:48.99
Jason
Ah, yeah, you know.

14:53.66
Jason
Yeah, well, but it's always a challenge like you said you know you're burning the candle at both ends you got to get to It. You got to be careful not to burn out because then then you lose all of it. You know what? I mean it's almost like you just like I just throw your hands there and you just walk away you know and I've seen I've seen guys and gals walk away from it. You know they just don't do it Anymore. You know and I think it's because there's there's probably multiple reasons right? But some of the things that are red flags to me is when you get too hung up on the likes and you're too worried about the algorithm and you're too worried about the you know well this time I'm shadow band and but I mean I hear it all the time you see it all the time you know and.

15:14.47
aaronmannes
Yeah.

15:28.45
Jason
I don't worry about that stuff. Hey I've got photos that with that many followers where I've got a couple hundred likes. Oh well, who cares I don't care I liked it I put it up and it didn't get the traction with the algorithm. Oh well, you know that just has to be your attitude about the social media side of things and I ah I personally believe from what I've seen. A lot of the burnout comes from people that are too worried about those social media likes and the algorithm you know and trying to grow a large following on Instagram or whatever it might be and and again I ask myself like why? What's the point of growing a large following on an Instagram or social media. Unless it's to market yourself and to try to get in front of you know, specific accounts or people or whatever. So.

16:11.25
aaronmannes
Yeah, and a couple episodes ago Seth and I talked about ah Instagram actually set up a call I'm sure they did to millions of people but they set up a call about like best practices and what I was pretty standard. It wasn't anything super specific towards me. Um, but probably just their outreach and trying to.

16:11.32
smacey
Um, pray.

16:28.94
aaronmannes
Shift people in certain directions. Anyways, what she said on the call and it could be slightly off but essentially Seth maybe you remember better but 5 to 7 posts a week 5 and preferably five reels a week ah and a couple extra things. So as soon as she said that my immediate thought was.

16:40.48
smacey
Will.

16:48.34
aaronmannes
Well, that's that's essentially a full time job for the kind of content that I want to create and put out there to get 5 to 7 would be an absolutely full time job now then what is the payoff just follows and likes am I going to get immediate business am I going to be able to.

16:57.58
Jason
Right.

17:06.62
aaronmannes
Quit my day job. Ah like I don't think so I don't think that happens for a very long time and I think the time I just I just do an efficiency calculation of like I could do 5 to 7 posts or I could reach out to 5 to 7 companies a week for a fraction of the time.

17:23.14
smacey
Are.

17:23.52
Jason
Sponsorships are right right? right.

17:25.15
aaronmannes
And and create opportunities for myself versus trying to like win this game that I don't think has an ending I really don't think there's an endpoint that's that's the brilliant part of it. You have a hundred thousand. Oh I want a million you have a million I want 3000000 who has the most million like I want to beat that like it just never.

17:36.73
Jason
Right? right.

17:44.68
aaronmannes
It never can end and then at the end of the day you're I just feel like it's so easy to be like what the hell did I just do for like 10 years didn't do anything I just got a following now. What it's a very interesting skill to like create a following but then what.

17:49.41
Jason
Right? Yeah, right for.

17:52.24
smacey
Yeah.

17:59.58
Jason
Right.

18:02.39
smacey
Um, speaking of the burnout you mentioned you've seen some people kind of Fade Burn and fade away. Um, you mentioned some red flags. What else have have you noticed have you have you kind of seen those Burnouts happen in slow motion from the sidelines I mean what? what do you think in your opinion can some people look out for I mean have you ever.

18:02.52
aaronmannes
So.

18:05.84
Jason
Right.

18:19.53
smacey
Burnt out hit the wall.

18:21.99
Jason
So you know I went through some I would call like um, creative funks if you will um with my editing and things like that I've never gotten tired of going out in the field and you know spending time in the wild. Never I mean I don't just don't ever see that happening.

18:33.83
smacey
Um, right.

18:38.60
Jason
Because that's my happy place That's where I want to be um, right? Um, but for the burnout side. Yeah on the creative side like on the editing like I mentioned I've definitely hit some brick walls multiple times in my career.

18:38.26
smacey
Right? So you're where you're supposed to be.

18:51.92
Jason
There's been times where I try to you know, go ah with a different style of editing or something and I just find that it's that that's not going to work you know, but then it's like I'm back to the same old same old and it's like how do I be creative. How do I create something new. How do I not have the exact same dear image that everybody else is posting from Colorado you know what? I mean just how do you. Separate yourself and set yourself apart. Um, and it's harder nowadays because the tools that they're giving us are amazing. Um, but they're also so powerful that it makes it very very easy for anybody to quote unquote copy your style or to copy the way you edit it's not It's it's taking the skill away from editing and making it very cut and pace and cookie cutter. Um, so I mean there's still opportunities there for sure and I don't think there's any secrets to editing honestly, it's just you know trying to create a style and create something unique. So now. It's about composition now. It's about.

19:30.14
aaronmannes
Are.

19:45.40
Jason
You know what what what? The animal's doing the type of animal the behavior that it's doing um you know trying to separate and create unique um and unique style of image that nobody's seen yet, you know I mean and then that's difficult right? I mean you look at wildlife on Instagram. And just if you just hashtag wildlife and look at the millions of hashtags that have been out there for wildlife I mean it's incredible. There are so many people out there doing it and which is awesome. But again you know if you think you're going to make a living with wildlife photography. It's almost like hey I'm over here. You know poo-poohing on your dream if that's your dream.

20:05.87
aaronmannes
My.

20:21.55
Jason
But I think you can do it but you got to be real creative and you're going to have to probably do more video than just photography. You know you have to probably be able to do both and you're going to probably have to set yourself apart in some way to even get the attention of the people that can give you the type of opportunities that you could make a living. And then you're also going to have to diversify. You know what? I mean but but yeah, the burnout I've seen both to be honest with you Seth I mean I've seen quick burnout where it just so you know somebody buys a new camera and they got this brand new lens and camera and they think they've got everything they got. And they get frustrated really fast because they're not getting the likes and the follows real quick and all of a sudden. They just screw it. You know I'm done I've seen that happen with people and I've seen the slow burn too where you know you get folks that kind of ebb and flow right? You know they come and they go they come and they go they come and they go which I give credit to those folks because at least they're still continuing the passion. They're just probably not putting it out on social media as much as they were before you know, but but yeah, the sorry, go ahead? yeah.

21:16.57
aaronmannes
You I was going to just ask a question. It's an opinion question I don't think it's statistical, but what percent of photographers because of the rise of social media and how popular it is and Seth and I kind of sometimes reference it as somewhat of a drug.

21:33.88
Jason
Absolutely.

21:35.63
aaronmannes
Um, the likes the follow that. Yeah so what percent of photographers and we can even we can even niche it down to wildlife photographers because that's seemingly what we all tend to put ourself as first. Ah, what percent of wildlife photographers are.

21:54.78
aaronmannes
Photographers because of that the likes follows the dopamine rush they figured out a tool Sure all genres they they figured out a tool. Oh this camera can get me more. What's called attention or likes or what have you better than my phone did.

21:55.56
Jason
In.

22:01.00
smacey
Um I think it's across all genres too though, right? like.

22:13.94
aaronmannes
And then oh this new lens can do it take away and I think Seth maybe I'm sposing this in a different ah different way take away social media. What percent photographers drop off the face of the earth.

22:25.74
Jason
Yeah O That's a really good question I had I dont know if I've thought much about that to be honest, um I think it's got to be less or less though I think it's significant I think the number would shock us all. Um, yeah because you can see folks that they do they have they have some accounts out there that are really cool.

22:40.18
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

22:45.59
Jason
And they take some amazing images and they're just iphone photographers right? or they're just doing nothing but video with Iphone or or photography with iphone and they can create some amazing stuff right? So the technology has gone so far that everybody has a camera and a video camera in their pocket nowadays right? and it's a camera that can do some pretty amazing things.

22:47.72
aaronmannes
Are.

23:05.25
Jason
So The the social media side of it really just adds fuel to that you know like hey I can share this like you said you get the likes and I'm going to be very very honest with you guys I I was caught up in that at first too. There's no question I mean I think I don't think anybody can be honest about.. There wasn't some a little bit of a dopamine rush when you got when you see those likes and you see that you're starting to get more followers and you see that your account's Growing. You see that you're getting that attention regardless of what that led to as far as sales or growth and or an opportunity for Business. You're kidding yourself if you don't think that that's giving you ah some kind of a rush. You know what? I mean you're kidding yourself. Don't lie to yourself. You know what? I mean.

23:40.32
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah, and I agree I Think the only ones that are immune to that Then we've had them on the shows are the people that went to school or got into photography business right away and became successful. With their business of photography whether it's weddings or what have you? It's kind of like I don't need social media is like that's just wasting my time from actually making money and doing things towards my business. Those are the only ones that seem Immune to the I want to grow I Want to oh they say Reals? Okay I'll do reals right.

24:07.46
Jason
Right.

24:14.94
Jason
Right? right.

24:17.20
aaronmannes
It's it's like I'll post when I can or I'll have the intern do it. But um I've got you know 3 clients I got to edit for like.

24:19.83
smacey
Um, first.

24:24.58
smacey
That's so interesting I Wonder the correlation between how we could even study this the correlation between people who give a shit about the numbers versus how successful in air quotes they're they're doing like how successful their business is or what's going on.

24:37.18
Jason
Yeah.

24:39.21
aaronmannes
It would be interesting to take every take ah sample size of photographers anyone that shoots photos and then ask how many followers you have and how much money you've made with photography not that it's all about money necessarily but it would be an interesting correlation of.

24:39.31
smacey
I Wonder if it's negatively correlated.

24:50.43
smacey
Are brave.

24:55.37
aaronmannes
Ah, ah yes I am a photographer Yes I made this much money and I have this many followers.

24:58.28
smacey
I Thought you were going to say yes I'm a photographer and I took this photo.

24:58.41
Jason
Right? Yeah, yeah, it is yeah.

25:04.60
aaronmannes
Ah, we should start that trend up again. Everyone the 3 of us do it tomorrow.

25:08.50
smacey
Ah, you know you know I think also just while we're on the topic of burnout from like what I've seen I feel like Burnout is the repetitive damage of being consistently disappointed by not hitting. Unrealistic expectations. Do you know what? I mean just like continuously being disappointed because your expectations are ridiculously high.

25:26.36
Jason
Yeah I like that definite I do.

25:35.85
Jason
yeah yeah I think that's a good definition and I think that sums up a lot of what you know what you see out there and it's funny. You mentioned the correlation with the photographers that do really well what I've seen right? if you go and follow some of those accounts or look at some of those accounts of the big name photographers part of those. Folks are big name photographers and so they have the following that makes sense I mean they don't necessarily do much with their social media. They don't manage it necessarily. They probably have somebody that's doing it for them but they they have a name you know like Paul Nicklin for example you know right? You know? um, they're going to have a large following just period.

25:55.31
aaronmannes
Are.

26:02.50
aaronmannes
Um, yeah Paul Nichon his verse thinking? yeah.

26:10.81
Jason
Then there's other photographers I I know a Nat Geo photographer that I follow um and he's an amazing photographer and he's got a large following. He's probably less well-known but he does great stuff but he also is super funny and he plays on that with his social media account so he does a good job with his social media as well.

26:24.78
smacey
Um, right.

26:28.79
Jason
So He has a large following I think more because of what he does with that than he does because he's so well known does that make sense and so and he I think he just uses as kind of a release he doesn't Care. He doesn't you know doesn't give you know doesn't care about the followers alikes. Whatever. Um, you know and so I think you know it's interesting bet but I bet you're right I bet that correlation exists I bet that it's the ones that are more well-known you know, probably don't you know they're the ones that actually make money. Um, you know they might have a large following but it might just because they they're well they're well known you know, but.

26:57.72
aaronmannes
Right? right? Maybe maybe there'd be a caveat where you take famous out and and just see kind of the average.

27:04.68
Jason
There you go right? If that'd be a that'd be a fun study to do that would be really interesting. Ah yeah.

27:11.22
aaronmannes
Yeah, it it would be.

27:12.81
smacey
Right? right? Ah, let's rewind when you're you were talking about you know being okay with you know, sometimes having those thoughts of you've you've been out in the field for 4 hours you're on a carcass. You're a wildlife photographer.

27:27.80
Jason
Yep.

27:27.31
smacey
And you know but I'm sure photographers of all because we have listeners of all genres and and I want to remind people the concepts that we talk about aren't just specific to the the guests we have on It's so applicable across all fields. But you mentioned in your specific example.

27:34.96
aaronmannes
No.

27:43.14
smacey
Sometimes you have that thought of what am I doing here I could be at home I could be spending time with my wife etc and you also mentioned though that you're okay, walking away like okay I'm not in the right headspace I've had enough I'm okay, walking away I feel like. Myself included in the past and maybe still sometimes presently and a lot of people listening whatever genre of photography you're in when you feel like you need to walk away or take a step back. There's this guilt or. There's this shame that you're not 100 % committed have you ever felt that does that make sense. Do you think? Ah, how can people like deal with that.

28:17.48
Jason
Oh yeah, Oh yeah, and I mean I mean I can give you examples but you know one that comes to mind is you know, not the specific scenario but you know sitting there with a bunch of buddies and there's this potential thing that's going to unfold and it's unreal I mean it's going to be if it Unfolds. It's unreal. And you know you're just sometimes you got to be willing to walk away and say hey you guys you you know it's yours if it unfolds. Great. You know and but you also have to be like am I Really okay with that you know because if you're not then you're just going to be it happens and you're like dang it dang it dang and then you're beating yourself up. You know for the other side of it. So.

28:51.73
smacey
Um, right.

28:55.11
Jason
You know I think it's really being honest with yourself. You know I mean is it okay to walk away. Yeah if I'm okay if I don't get that even if all my buddies that are there get it I'm happy for him I'm not going to sit and beat myself up about it right? So I it really is right.

29:03.66
smacey
Um, and that's such a broader topic too. Is it okay to walk away is it okay to walk away from photography I'm and if I'm not having fun. Is it okay to walk away from this social media strategy I've been implementing for three months and I'm just feeling like shit like.

29:19.87
Jason
D yep.

29:21.69
smacey
Is it okay to walk away is such a such a heavy concept.

29:24.16
aaronmannes
Yeah, and Seth it's the it has to be okay to walk away to be okay to walk away like if it's your livelihood and you are burnt out at a wedding and you're like I just want to walk away. That's not going to be a great move.

29:36.29
Jason
Move.

29:42.86
smacey
I see.

29:43.88
aaronmannes
So That's where it gets. That's where it gets tricky in terms of we Some some have the privilege of being able to walk away when it's not ah, not working out but some don't I don't think and and that is I think that. Perpetual sort of negative spiral can get you into ah a really tough burnout situation where you're like I can't walk away because I have to yeah then I have to I have to that's where the that passion becomes then ah payable a payable passion and then.

30:05.65
smacey
Um, well then you're a prisoner.

30:17.34
aaronmannes
You decide I'm going to lean completely on this passion and then you can't take a break. You can't can't stop working at it and ah then it then it becomes a little bit tricky. There's ah, there's a different aspect to that.

30:30.30
Jason
Yeah, you know if you don't mind I'm just the thought came to mind real quick but you know you're spot on I think and that's what makes it hard for folks I have friends that have tried that right? They've walked away from their previous job or whatever it was because the you know photography was their passion.

30:35.93
aaronmannes
Um, these are.

30:48.25
Jason
And they wanted to go make a living with it and they would have kicked themselves if they wouldn't have tried to go make a go of it. Um, some folks went and did it and they just couldn't make it because the opportunity just weren't there. You know some folks went and did it and they couldn't make it because. They realized pretty quickly that what was their passion became a job and then all of a sudden they weren't having fun. You know I mean so I guess the point is is before you make that leap I think it's real important for you to be honest with yourself for saying a lot of honesty right? But I think we kid ourselves a lot. You know so.

31:17.29
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, we do.

31:20.15
Jason
Be honest with yourself that you really think you can go out and make a living with your camera and that's you're going to be satisfied and happy and fulfilled. You know, ah, 1 example was a friend a good friend of mine who did that and he's back working in the corporate world again. But he's he's happier now because his photography is his passion again and he's. Doing he gets to go to him photograph and video the Thingss. He wants to you know it's not He's not having to do things for folks to make money on their schedule and things that he could really care less about photograph and and and video and you know what I mean so you know I think it's fair to ask yourself that I've I've thought about it myself. We all have heard the.

31:42.98
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

31:51.11
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah.

31:58.30
Jason
Joe Rogan you know, just just you know go do it make it happen. You know be the most successful podcast person in history. You know and and that's easy when you're the guy you know what I mean and not not digging on or dogging on Joe Rogan a lot of folks have taken that advice and been very successful and there's nothing wrong with that. But you also have to ask yourself.

32:09.51
smacey
Um, right.

32:17.27
Jason
Hey maybe for me my corporate job which gives me a lot of time off and pays me really well and allows me all the time off and the ability to go do this passion is an okay thing too if I'm not sitting in a cubicle and stuck in ah in ah in a situation where I dread going to work every day you know what I mean so I think that's different different strokes are different folks and you just got to know.

32:29.89
smacey
Um, right right.

32:30.52
aaronmannes
Right.

32:36.77
Jason
You know what's going to what? what's really going to work for you and your personality. But.

32:40.15
aaronmannes
Yeah, and and there's parts of my career that are rewarding in different ways and then there's parts of passions that are rewarding in different ways and there's parts of athletics and working out and spending time with family and my dog like all those things have their their pros and cons everything in life and um I.

32:45.30
Jason
Right.

32:58.15
aaronmannes
Personally my perspective with work and passion is there's always part of life whether it's a sport you love then? there's endurance training for it. You know I hate long distance running but and I was a lacrosse player. Ah so much running back and forth as a midfielder. Ah. Just that's the part I didn't like but in order to enjoy the game. The most I had to do that workout ah in in order to be able to afford equipment or ah, you know, buy that new lens the work I do at my day job is something that. That feeds that and I look at it like this is the hard part of that and it helps get through the day. It's not like oh I wish I could only do that. It's just it's all 1 thing to me. It's all part of it and there's there's ups and downs to all of it and if you kind of look at it as like that.

33:33.64
Jason
Right.

33:49.14
aaronmannes
You can You can adjust the scales as you need to as you move on. But um, it's all kind of part of it and it keeps it fresh and fun.

33:51.16
Jason
Right? That wrote well said well said.

33:57.44
smacey
Um, what does the? Ah what does the being honest with your honest with yourself conversation look like what questions are we asking ourselves that we can get the most accurate answer you know that we can make decisions from.

34:15.34
Jason
Yeah, um I mean ah for me, No no, no, no right right? like so right? Yeah, yeah, that's all I can really give you is like for me I mean I can think of you know, um, like for me, it's really just about.

34:18.46
smacey
I Don't expect you to have a ah you know like a a one size off fits all answer. But I mean in your experience. What's helped of course.

34:33.40
Jason
What what am I you know it's my why again, it goes back to why am I doing this and I started asking the question am I doing this to make a living no am I doing this because I want the likes and honestly anymore. No I used to I used to get caught up in that when I like I said I admitted to that and I and I was caught in that trap for sure. Um. But I've I've matured past that whatever you want to call it got to a point where I don't care. Whatever um you know and I've been fortunate to have some success in the photography world for sure and so I mean I'm not but you know that makes it easier to say yeah I don't care right for sure. Um, but you know like let me give you an example. More specifically to the creative side I went through a period where I was um I kind of if you guys know my history at all and I won't get too detailed on this. But um I got ah I got a photo of an elk that was standing broadside in on a shadow line bugle and and it's become a pretty well-known image of mine. And I got my very first new stand cover with that photo and so it checked a lot of boxes for me from a goal standpoint from a career standpoint from a you know recognition standpoint so on and so forth and it kind of also set the tone for a style of image that I really liked. And so when I'm out in the field anymore I'm really looking for that scenario to unfold I'm looking for that dark background to kind of set out and pop with great crazy light. You know and playing with shadows and stuff like that. That's kind of become I guess maybe what I'm known for what I'd really like to try to chase. Um in that early on that process I got so.

36:02.22
Jason
Gung-ho about it that I was trying to go through an editing style where I was forcing images that weren't that to become that and it got me into a point where I was getting so frustrated because I couldn't I could I mean it was obvious these these photos were terrible because they were overedited and they were was trying to force something that wasn't there.

36:09.11
aaronmannes
Um, and.

36:20.28
Jason
And so that that that whole conversation came down to talking to a good friend of mine Hardonm Cooper who I've mentioned on lots of different scenarios because he's a good mentor and a friend of mine and you know he's the kind of friend that will sit you down and say what are you doing you know like what are you that that's garbage dude like what in the crap you do.

36:34.41
smacey
We need those people.

36:36.65
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

36:38.30
Jason
You do you need those people so I am more than grateful for him multiple times through my to my photography career if you I'll throw a photo in front ah him and he'll look and say and I'm all excited'm like dude I think I got check this out. He's like dude, it's garbage and I'm like what are you talking and the nice thing is he doesn't just say it's garbage then he'll come back and explain why.

36:49.41
smacey
Are.

36:57.14
Jason
What what was the Miss What went wrong. Why isn't doesn't it work and if I'm and at first I'm always like defensive and like yeah, you're you don't what you're talking about and the where I sit and stew on it look at it think about it like man. He's right Gosh Dang it. He's right, you know and but but that's how I grow That's how I learn that's a big how we become better right? so.

37:10.66
aaronmannes
Are.

37:15.83
Jason
He was he was instrumental in like calling me out on some of that like dude you're over editing crap man you just need to stop your force in it. You know and it you know took a minute but I had that come to Jesus meeting with myself if you will and said no, you're right? You know I need to knock it off and as soon as I was able to like back out of that the funk left I was back in my stride. You know I just I realized that I need it and there's a lesson learned through all my photography is I don't want to make anything that it's not whatever it gives me. It gives me creative I can do some things with it. But it's pretty limited because I try to look for a natural look and you know beyond that if the photos there and that situation is there great I'll go with it if it's not I'm not going to force it. And I'm just learning to be happy with whatever is presented to me if that makes sense so there's an example for you of what that process was like for me on a specific scenario. But.

37:59.53
smacey
Um, right? right? I think what's interesting about this is all I always struggle with with with feedback. Not because I don't like it but because 1 of the hardest things about feedback is knowing when to take it or when not to take it right and just because somebody has suggestions doesn't mean that they're right necessarily especially with art because it's so subjective. But what I find interesting about your story and that particular story.

38:18.51
Jason
Yeah, right.

38:23.97
Jason
Absolutely.

38:32.54
smacey
Is that somewhere somewhere inside of you part of you believed what he was saying was true otherwise you wouldn't have come to the realization does that make sense. Do you guys agree with that or disagree with that feel free to disagree since we're talking about.

38:38.00
Jason
Right.

38:46.23
Jason
Yeah, yeah, yeah I do. Ah, yeah yeah, honest, right.

38:51.92
smacey
You know being um, you know speaking or being honest and speaking our truths right.

38:55.49
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah I think it depends how you look at the person too and who they are and how much you trust them and sometimes you can look up to people too much and then just take everything they say as gospel. Ah.

39:09.45
smacey
Um, that's what I'm saying right.

39:10.85
aaronmannes
I've I've been in that situation where it's like an arbitrary change but you just find yourself like a lemming like okay I'll go put the highlights down and you're like wait. Why though back to the why why did I overshoot something is it too. Bright here is the too much contrast like what it is.

39:19.96
Jason
5

39:27.19
aaronmannes
Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Um I can see that it does look a little bit better if it's a more balanced photo and then if you truly believe that then great. Um I think the the bravest or the most confident or the best relationship maybe is where you could say like hey I thought about what you said I tried it. It's just not working for me. But thank you for being honest and giving your opinion I'm going to stick with it. It's not that I don't I don't value that I just actually I'm doing this on purpose like I like it that way I like the highlights like hot lighter to to my taste. It's It's my thing and he might be like well you're wrong and you're an idiot.

40:02.25
Jason
The.

40:04.30
aaronmannes
You be like well I think you're an idiot and then you just go back and forth and then no, but um, yeah I think and now it's it's about the relationship and and making sure it feels balanced and you trust each other and um Seth and I we've worked together for a long time now and I think ah.

40:06.91
Jason
And pretty soon you're not friends anymore. Yeah, and right.

40:08.57
smacey
Are brave.

40:22.66
aaronmannes
Even know each other's like defensiveness or if something gets us ah and we can call each other out on that and it never comes the blows but it's just like we we know how we um how we function we know how we work and we ask each other straight up for not just photos but like written stuff emails like hey how's this sound. What would you do here? what.

40:24.31
Jason
Freedom.

40:42.35
aaronmannes
What do you think about this pitch like it's it's just once you know someone and trust that they're not going to snap at you or or belittle you I think you can have a good relationship and that goes for yourself too right? Like we all have that Bobby Knight voice that calls us. You know pieces of crap and garbage and we suck that voice in our head that can be super critical and I think ah working on that relationship also is really important for our own just peace and success and and enjoyment of any of this stuff. So so yeah.

41:09.65
Jason
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you nailed that one for sure. Um, and and I think that's the other side of that that you know I mean obviously this is this person has become a friend right? A lifelong friend I mean yeah I can't imagine us ever not being friends because we have that relationship. You know. Um, but you're right and I think sometimes you know we talk a lot. You guys have probably talked on the podcast before about you know, getting a mentor right? or you know what is a mentor the value of a mentor and we just you know that's what we're talking about right now. Really um and a mentor doesn't have to be some professional could just be a friend that's going to give it to you on us. It could be somebody that does not even in the space. You know that you value their opinion. So there's a lot of ways to to you know, kind of consider that but you're right? It's got to be 1 where you know Harlem. For example, will tell me listen you take it or leave it I don't care I'm just sharing with you because I care and I'm telling you what I feel and I think. And you know what I could be wrong. You know and that's fine too and if you disagree then disagree. You know there's nothing wrong with that right? Um, so as as you know some advice maybe would be as folks are thinking about a mentor and you know that relationship you you nailed it. You got to make sure that it's a 2 wo-way respect and that you're not. Just like you said the lemming thing just following because that's what you know? That's what isaac's doing now look at his editing style. Oh. It's so cool then all of a sudden. Everybody's trying to copy isaac. Well sometimes it just doesn't work for you because you're not isaac a and then you're not necessarily hitting the style that he's hitting and then sometimes folks see it as just copying. You know what? I mean.

42:30.24
aaronmannes
Um, right are.

42:36.93
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

42:37.51
Jason
For an example, right? So um, but yeah I mean I just yeah, it's a good point. It's a really critical point too I think and and having more than 1 person like that is kind of important so you can throw things at people and get different perspectives and set it just that one. You know what I mean. So.

42:45.81
smacey
Yes, or you get you get convergence on an opinion right? if 2 or 3 people are saying the same thing I think it holds way more weight right? you get? You know you get confidence confirmation right? Yeah, the.

42:53.81
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

42:54.40
Jason
Yeah, right, right? Absolutely Yep! Yeah yeah.

42:59.88
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, yeah.

43:05.74
smacey
The mentor thing is so you're you're right when you say you know it's ah it's a heavily asked question or topic on the podcast I don't know how much we've we've done a lot of episodes I don't know how much we've dug into the whole mentor thing. Maybe we do an episode on our opinions on like how to go about acquiring a mentor.

43:22.40
Jason
Yeah.

43:24.94
smacey
But a lot of people ask that How do I get a mentor and I feel like often. It's gone about the wrong way I feel like a lot of the times people think oh I'm going to go find some people I look up to and just straight up, ask them hey like can you be my mentor I don't really think it works that way I would say like for all the people I look up to and and.

43:36.00
Jason
Right.

43:38.26
aaronmannes
Um, now.

43:43.87
smacey
Who offer me advice and guidance. It was just kind of a natural friendship or relationship that just kind of grew over time and you you kind of are there one day and you're like huh this person really is a mentor for me. They've offered me a lot of guidance throughout the years you know it's never just like a hate me 1 mentor please right? I just.

43:48.57
Jason
Right.

43:50.88
aaronmannes
Yep.

43:57.86
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, yeah, signing up? yeah.

43:59.78
Jason
My.

44:03.51
smacey
I Think it's important to say that for people listening who are like how can I go get a mentor I mean just go talk to people go ask questions and be open to learning right and be open to be open to criticism and not get too defensive and stuck in your ways right? It it all goes back to that. How can we? How can we deflate that ego right.

44:19.19
Jason
Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Sorry go ahead.

44:22.65
aaronmannes
Yeah, and you could be duo duo mentors with each other like you can meant to mentor each other just as friends and and grow together and build and push each other and keep pushing and pushing and pushing and and that's the idea versus um.

44:25.52
smacey
Right.

44:34.49
smacey
Which I think is you and I in a sense man like you know what? you're good at I know what you're get at you. We know each other's weaknesses and for example, like out part of me 0 right? That's your weakness right? there.

44:38.61
aaronmannes
Yeah.

44:43.37
aaronmannes
Um, is zero for me as 0 for me, right? That's easy.

44:48.71
Jason
A.

44:52.13
smacey
I'll come to you with something I know that I'm not as strong at you know. For example, there's a lot of things that require a lot more life experience which you can't teach that and you have a decade on me right? So how could I possibly know some of the things that you do.

44:55.36
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

45:05.81
aaronmannes
Right? You can't cause I'm so old is what you're saying. Yeah yeah, ah yeah, no.

45:06.80
smacey
Yeah, that's my side. That's my backhanded compliment I'm sly I'm sly. No. But for example, Aaron's very good at you know, getting people to.

45:10.30
Jason
That was a very nice little way you slid that in was nice, but.

45:24.23
smacey
Get excited about something or you know Aaron's good at how to how to revise an email. Um, yeah, it also goes back to I think for people who have we talked so much about this episode about being more than just a photographer. We do that every episode. But for all the people listening who have like big dreams I mean we all do right? We're all kind of entrepreneurial in a sense if we want to make money with our photography. It gets to a point where your dream is so big that you cannot afford to do it alone. It's impossible. You can't do it alone and you're going to have to find a teammate teammates. Employees to kind of build the ship that you've envisioned for years.

46:04.52
aaronmannes
Yeah I agree with that 100% in this industry and just seeing it just in the short time that I've been here like there's there's just no way. There's just no way I don't think to.

46:14.10
smacey
I Don't think there's any way if like you're trying to continue to grow and when I say grow that doesn't necessarily mean quantitatively but just like grow your business or grow I don't know how many trips you offer writes.

46:26.71
Jason
Leave him even personally right grow person right? Yeah I mean yeah, you don't you don't if you want to be successful. You don't surround yourself with a bunch of losers. You know what? I mean I'm du you know, not it' a cut to the chase right? I mean.

46:28.57
aaronmannes
Yeah, personally grow grow as a team. You know.

46:36.97
smacey
Um, brave.

46:41.63
Jason
And and and I love what you said I but before the thought leaves my mind I want to just touch on it because I think it's so big is the idea that those mentorships kind of happen naturally. Um, all the ones that happen in my life to this point have all been fairly natural and I think there's 2 things there right? Um I feel like I've tried to be a mentor to up and coming. You know, younger guys and gals that are getting into photography and the reason I'm doing that is because I felt like people did it for me and again it's natural. It's not something where they've asked or anything right? But if you're humble and you're receptive people will be willing to help you. If you're not and you act like you know it all and nobody has anything to offer you. You're going to be on your own on an island I guarantee it. So if you want to learn if you want to grow and develop if you think you know it all good luck. You know I'll be the first to admit I have so much so I've been doing photography now consistently seriously for about 8 years and I have so much to learn. It's not even funny. You know what? I mean I learn every time I'm always listening to people and I had a professor tell me one time.

47:38.88
aaronmannes
Yeah, wow.

47:47.97
Jason
Early on in my college career. You always if you have the right attitude you can learn from everybody that everybody that's in front of you everybody that comes into your life and sometimes it's what not to do Sometimes it's how not to be but you can learn from everybody right.

48:00.70
aaronmannes
Um.

48:01.30
smacey
Um, ah.

48:04.71
Jason
So I think that was good for me early on I've tried to always be humble and tried to always be open to perception and new ideas and you know not be that person that thinks they know it all because those ah the the last person I want to talk to so it acts like they know it all I mean ah for all being honest, none of us want to talk to that person. You know so.

48:20.57
smacey
Yeah, and I mean you saying I have so much to learn instantly for me instills a level of. Trust.

48:20.73
aaronmannes
Kept him amen.

48:31.30
Jason
Them.

48:34.16
smacey
For me like just when I said this on our last podcast. It seems like we've talked about this so much because we've done so many podcasts in a row but on the last episode we did We were talking about when people say they don't know or they have They're humble and they say they have things to learn those people are generally people you want to go to for advice and generally can.

48:51.36
Jason
Right? Yeah I found that in my life too for sure I just I was just thinking like the people that I go to the most are the ones that are the most humble the ones that are always willing to tell me that yeah you know hey you're coming to me for this but I don't know but like hey let's go figure it out. You know what? I mean or.

48:51.68
smacey
Tend to be very trustworthy.

48:57.51
aaronmannes
Um.

49:09.92
smacey
Um, right.

49:11.31
Jason
Whatever you know? And yeah I think it's important to surround yourself with folks like that and I I yeah I'm gonna leave it at that because if I'm and I'm gonna start getting into the specific people if I don't so.

49:17.95
aaronmannes
Yeah, no yeah and I think it's I was just going to say it's important to surround yourself with not the echo Chamber you know, not someone That's your exact clone copy. You know we edit exactly the same. We.

49:18.93
smacey
Um, yeah, and we're so blessed today. Yeah, we're so but sorry, go ahead. Aaron.

49:36.59
aaronmannes
Ah, this is how we just go about our lives. We're we're doing the same reels or whatever it is whatever it is you I think you do better with someone or at least have those people in your lives that there's the Venn diagram you overlap a little bit you overlap in maybe a good amount. But you have certain strengths certain certain qualities certain expertise ah that you know makes the whole just that much bigger like if we had a photography company for for product or we have a drone pilot. We have someone that's great with video we have someone that can get the photos there. We're not all just trying to go get the best photo that's not going to create the best package so surrounding your stuff with people with like different shrs and things you can learn from maybe I can learn from the drone pilot like how to fly a drone that's cool that he's right in my crew you know so I think.

50:28.13
Jason
I hope.

50:30.99
aaronmannes
I Think that's important too when you're when you're looking around is not just finding the person that's like oh that guy's just like me but just has a bigger following. You know like I'm I'm just going to latch onto that. It's good to have those sort of different.

50:38.22
Jason
From right.

50:47.52
aaronmannes
Ah, Contrarian views as well. Diversity is good.

50:47.81
Jason
Yeah, diversity's good for sure. Yeah.

50:51.14
smacey
I Think what's in what the similarity that's important though is all having a similar generative drive right? I mean going to that drone pilot in your example, you may not learn how to fly a drone. Maybe that's unimportant for the mission. But maybe you learn something about planning. And preparation and that protocol if you learned something about safety from that drone pilot just like a general Guideline. You know what? I mean maybe you learn from the Pr person that your company had to be a better Speaker. You know, not necessarily the the details of the job but the the more.

51:17.45
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

51:31.30
smacey
Principles I guess right? and we're so blessed in today's world because we can we have access to so many wonderful people just by taking a phone out of our pocket and I think that's a great way to use social media obviously um, but I think surrounding your you know you become who you surround yourself with that that. That's the same digitally too like what are you consuming not to go too far on a tangent but surround yourself with good stuff and people who are going to make you better and going back to our conversation about honesty. You know if if the people you're surrounding yourself with digitally or in the physical world.

51:52.56
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

51:54.82
Jason
I am.

52:05.28
smacey
You know if they're dragging you down and if they're going to hold you back and you got to decide are you okay with that or are you going to be regretful. Um you know while we're on this topic. What's the value in sharing experience and knowledge you know with an audience in general you have a podcast tell us about that and ah. Why you do that I'm sure part of it is to to share knowledge.

52:27.79
Jason
Yeah I mean you know it's so funny. It's hard because I have a hard time even just calling myself a professional to be honest with you. Um I don't make my living with this, you know with my passion. Um I do make money with it. I'm not going to you know i. I do try to make money with it too. Don't get me wrong, but it's not my business It's not my main focus. It's not where I get my income to support my family so I even have a hard time calling myself a professional I mean where do you where do you draw that line I don't know but I just don't feel like I'm a professional um I feel like Mark Raycroft is for sure. He's on the podcast as well.

52:53.77
smacey
I Think it's subjective.

53:01.14
Jason
And he makes his living with it and he's been doing it for a long time and he continues to make a living as a wildlife photographer which is pretty amazing in today's world um but yeah to me so back to the reason I bring that up is because what do I have to share. Um. I feel like I have some experiences that I can share and that's probably why I do the podcast is because it's fun to I'll be honest with you. What's really cool is meeting folks like you meeting the guests that we have on you know, getting to talk about my passion I mean heck I could sit and talk about photography for hours. You know, especially with the other people that want to talk about photography. So. Um I think it's cool to get to meet all the different people that we've met and I built a network that's incredible as far as opportunities for you know, photography tours and trips and um, going out and learning new things. You know, go out and hang out with a landscape photographer because I suck at landscape you know. Um, and learn from all these different people to me. It's about it's a little bit selfish. It's not so much about sharing my knowledge. It's more learning and taking in more knowledge. Um, and so I've been fortunate I've been fortunate to be on the wild and exposed podcast for you know, three and a half four years and then to. Start this new endeavor with the beyond the wild podcast with ah Ron and Mark and you know we've been. We're partnering up with picture line which is the camera store in Salt Lake City which is awesome. Um, you know and we're starting a new adventure but to me it's it's kind of selfish. Um.

54:24.56
Jason
I Want to learn as much as I can from everybody I can that's just and I'm being sincere about that. You know so.

54:29.90
smacey
Dan that's fair and often other people learning listeners learning is the byproduct and that's I've said down and then on this show point blank I mean I learned so much every week and that hopefully the questions er and ask no questions I ask we learn people listening learn and then you go and apply it.

54:30.20
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

54:40.10
Jason
Yep.

54:44.14
Jason
Yeah.

54:47.82
smacey
Just ah, in case we have a lot of listeners who listen to the wild and exposed podcast and I'm sure who listened to your new one just kind of explain if people are confused what happened to that.

54:51.63
Jason
Um, ah, yeah, yeah, so so it was everybody has this like what happened you know there's like is there drama there. Whatever right? and it really wasn't it was just. I think we all got kind of burned out. We did 5 years of almost every week releasing an episode right? right? which you guys know you're there. You're right knocking on that door right? and you've been doing. It's hard work. It's a lot of work and you know that? Um, so.

55:07.74
smacey
Um, Wow congratulations.

55:10.36
aaronmannes
Um, wow.

55:19.42
Jason
Think we got all kind of got a little burned out needed a break a break turned into a little bit longer break a break turned into conversations about hey what are we doing? You know? are we going to keep this going. You know we all felt like hey if we're going to keep doing this. We've been doing it for basically free for the entire time we were doing it hoping it would take off. You know there's a lot of conversations about hey at some point you got to make money out this or it's not you know, even though it's a passion. It takes a lot of time and it's taking enough time that it's Hard. It's eating into other things that we should be spending doing our in our lives. So.

55:49.97
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

55:51.12
Jason
We just had that conversation and and I think you know Mike decided he wanted to go ahead and go a different route and do the you know he's doing the truth and legend podcast now. Um, if you haven't you know, checked that out. Go check it out. He's got a great Youtube channel with ah like quite a few episodes out now. And ah him and Brandon day and Eric I can't remember his last name but they're they're they're running with that on the and they're more focus on video stuff and then you know Ron and Mark and I decided to go ahead and you know partner with picture line and start the podcast back up from the podcast format. We have a Youtube as well. But really more focus on like photography. We do some video stuff too because there's a couple of us do some video here and there but more focus on the photography stuff. So. The nice thing is now the folks that we're doing wild and exposed. They actually have 2 outlets for content instead of just the one. Um, and it's all mostly the same folks that were involved throughout the years on that podcast so um yeah I mean we'd love the support love for you guys to reach out and support us and you know we we love interacting with our listeners too. You know and and we ask for questions all the time from them so we can address them on the podcast and. You know, a lot of our listeners are friends and guests of the podcast too. Um, so we do a lot of that too where we all can learn and it's always fun to hear somebody's story. So from a format standpoint we do a lot of bring a guest on talk about their photograph photography journey. How do they get into it. What's what's driving them? What's their why.

57:06.11
smacey
Um, grave.

57:16.24
Jason
You know how? um where are they at today and what's their passion. What are projects they working on and then we we love to do like catchup episodes of times that we spend in the field and do pro-t tip episodes you know quote unquote pro tips you know mine aren't so pro but tips and things that we learned that that we can apply in the field and you know to our photography and that so.

57:28.76
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

57:35.65
smacey
Um, brave.

57:35.87
Jason
It's a lot of the same stuff you've gotten before but um, yeah, we're excited about it and you know would love the support. So.

57:42.45
smacey
Awesome! We'll we'll link to your new podcast in the episode description for people who are interested in checking that out sounds like it's designed for Wildlife Photographers who are interested in becoming better at photography out in the field learning through um your experiences and your guest experiences is that fair.

57:45.50
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

57:45.88
Jason
Cool. Nice.

57:52.68
Jason
Yeah, yeah, I'd say it's more like outdoor adventure photography right? So you know we do some landscape we do a lot of wildlife. But yeah, it's more focused on that. So if you're interested in that genre then that's probably you know it's a good. It's a good fit for you. But.

58:00.44
smacey
Excellent.

58:12.10
Jason
Like you guys have all talked. Yeah I mean there's no question. We all all the genres as far as the photography technical aspect. They meld very well. There's a lot of crossover you know, um, and so there's there's a lot of opportunity to learn from everybody out there. So I'm excited to ah found your guys as podcast and. Unk go dig in I got I love it. I've got 200 something episodes I can go binge over like all those road trips. You know? Ah no no no I'll get caught up trust me I do a lot of ride I think a lot of driving in the car. So ah.

58:35.73
smacey
You be an old old man by the time you're done.

58:40.80
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:44.60
smacey
Oh god don't go back to episode one. It's like cringe level one hundred. Ah everyone listening after this go listen to go listen to Jason's podcast and then after you're done doing that listen to episode 1 of this one and you'll be like good god.

58:48.91
Jason
Hey that's the fun. That's the fun part right? so.

58:50.78
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

58:58.28
Jason
Yeah, that's not even a fair comparison listen to this one and then the most recent one and they'll be very very similar. So yeah.

59:00.65
aaronmannes
It's amazing.

59:04.71
aaronmannes
You there they are That's funny.

59:07.93
smacey
Um, right? So yeah, yeah, that's awesome. What you mentioned here you have guests on and they tell about their talk about their their journey and you learn stuff through that we're going to kind of do this ass backwards here. How did you get into wildlife photography.

59:15.13
Jason
Yeah, yeah.

59:21.69
Jason
Oh yeah, um, so for me, a lot of folks that have probably maybe you know your listeners will be new to this. But for me I've shared this story a lot but I really got into it through hunting I'm ah I'm a local resident here in Utah um I I grew up hunting with my dad and being in the outdoors and you know hunting for us wasn't just about. Um, hunting it was about spending quality time in the field with family and friends and that passion just carried on for me, it was another way to spend more time out in the field. Um in the outdoors with family and friends. So that's what started it for me and my journey is a long story. Well, it's a short story. Buy a good camera. Think that's all I got to do learn very quickly that I got a lot to learn and I hear I am today you know ten years later with a lot to learn so but you know but just keep it though to me. It's like as long as photography can be fun and exciting and every time I do a new type of photography like night photography or aurora or whatever.

01:00:05.81
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:00:07.72
smacey
Um, right.

01:00:18.57
Jason
I'm learning something new you know and so it's so fun I mean there's a guy named Chris Dickinson um you know if I if you don't mind real quick I plug just ah the ah picture picture line is doing a photo x and it's may seventeenth and eighteenth and they're having folks come in.

01:00:25.83
smacey
We got time man don't feel like you're in a rush.

01:00:35.81
Jason
Um, Keith Lainsky is the keynote speaker they're providing some food and everything. It's very reasonably priced. It's awesome little event that they're doing there to just kind of give back to the community and one of the guys that's coming is um Chris Dickinson he's ah he's a wildlife photograph. He's a western photographer and I'm I'm pumped to meet this guy right? I. I've followed him on scra for a long time and he lives locally but we just never have rubbed elbows and so I'm super pumped to meet him and to you know bend his ear a little bit. Hopefully if we have some time and to learn from him about western photography and you know I mean my point is that what do you want to photograph? What do you want to go? do. You know the sky's a limit I mean you could you can be a photographer that can specialize or you can be a photographer that tries to do all kinds of different stuff right? So I feel I feel like I'm the guy that's wanting to become more of a guy that's not specialized and is wanting to learn different styles of photography. So but.

01:01:27.83
aaronmannes
Very cool.

01:01:30.90
smacey
Right? on right on? Um well I guess the theme of today's episode has been have some damn fun. This is we started off having fun. Let's let's continue to have fun and let's keep that in the back of our mind if we're not having fun reevaluate step back like make some changes.

01:01:35.39
Jason
Yeah amen.

01:01:38.80
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, keep the fun.

01:01:43.97
Jason
I.

01:01:47.15
smacey
Take a break dig in more whatever you got to do to make this fun.

01:01:50.97
Jason
Yeah I love it and be honest with yourself.

01:01:52.23
aaronmannes
Um, yeah, yeah, always thank you.

01:01:53.22
smacey
Um, be honest with yourself, ask hard questions Jason thanks for joining us today man. It's been a pleasure talking with you for everyone I know we ended on talking about his podcast but go check that out. It's in the episode description and it's been a pleasure having you I learned a lot today speaking about learning I hope our listeners did too. So.

01:02:09.85
aaronmannes
Um, yeah.

01:02:12.23
smacey
So next time guys.

01:02:12.45
aaronmannes
Take care.

01:02:13.50
Jason
To you guys.