Continuing to Evolve and Grow as a Photographer with Mark Raycroft

In this episode we're joined by Mark Raycroft (@markraycroftwildphoto), a seasoned wildlife photographer and biologist with over 25 years of experience capturing the stunning beauty of North American wildlife, specializing in iconic species like Moose, Caribou, Elk, Bears, and Deer. Mark is also co-host of the "Beyond the Wild" podcast. Through his photography, Mark showcases the grace and resilience of these creatures, taking viewers on a captivating journey through the vast northern wilderness. Mark has also authored 4 books which you can find on his website below. You can also see his available photo tours by clicking and navigating through the same link:

https://www.markraycroft.com/index

Expect to learn:

-why Mark watermarks his photos everywhere including on socials
-where opportunities lie moving forward to earn a living as a photographer
-how to run and execute photo trips
-how to get started on publishing photo books
-how to take deliberate and intentional photographs as opposed to taking as many pictures as possible

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Sponsor:

Thanks to WhiteWall for being our lead sponsor this episode! They're the top choice for photographers who want high-quality prints, with a variety of material options, and who want their work delivered fast in 9 days or less!

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

INTRO:

00:01.60
smacey
Hey, welcome back to another episode of The Photographer Mindset Podcast. I'm your co-host Seth Macey.

00:05.61
aaronmannes
Let me co-host Aaron Mannes.

00:06.76
smacey
Today we had on Mark Raycroft, who is an incredible wildlife outdoor photographer. It's been shooting for, I think about 30 years as authored and supplemented photos to what would you say? Four different photo books, caribou, moose.

00:22.97
aaronmannes
Yup.

00:22.71
smacey
I think the ones are deer, but we didn't touch on that.

00:25.84
aaronmannes
White tail there. Yeah.

00:26.95
smacey
Yeah. Co-host of the Beyond the Wild photography podcast. Check that out. Link to that in the episode description. Today's, uh, today's episode was really good. What'd you learn? What should people listen out for?

00:37.91
aaronmannes
I think just the growth of photography as a profession over time was interesting to kind of relive as someone that's coming to the hobby, the passion, the profession recently. It was nice to kind of hear the transition that he's gone through and the things he's learned and the pros and cons of both. And then I think just his love for nature, earth, wildlife, guiding, and seeing people's passion in photography really came through. It was a pleasure to talk to. I think these podcasts hosts are usually good speakers and um ah hold a good conversation. So we we talked for a while and it was ah it was great.

01:17.10
smacey
Yeah. And I really want to add to that, that I think there was a good business chat through or business sort of ah concepts that we talked about throughout the whole episode, just how there's so many different buckets and so many different things you can do, regardless of what genre you're in to continue to scale and make photography your life if you want it to be. And I think he mentioned throughout this episode, like it doesn't need to be, I think priority is enjoying the moment in the time that you're spending with your camera. I think that was really emphasized throughout but he's a perfect example of how you can just continue to scale and and make cool things happen and have great experiences over time in the wilderness or regardless of whether you're outdoor an outdoor photographer or not doesn't really matter but um so if you want to I'll chop this

02:04.30
smacey
You can also listen to these episodes on YouTube. You can subscribe to us there. Link to that is in the episode description and feel free to leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts and Spotify. If you're loving these episodes, we would greatly appreciate it. Quick word from our sponsor and then into today's episode with Mark Raycroft.

INTERVIEW:

00:01:08.51
smacey
How do you like being a podcaster alongside being a photographer?

00:01:08.65
Mark Raycroft
I missed... Oh! Oh, it's sharing, man. It's well, that's what photography is, right? We share the experience and podcasting is another platform to do that. And whether it's the audio component or the video component, or so stills that we can put up it. Yeah, it's another another way to to relay our passion with, with people who feel similarly, or maybe aren't exposed to it that learn more about it. Right. So it's, and it's, it's an, it's a different, um, platform, obviously.

00:01:39.65
Mark Raycroft
So it comes with its own challenges, which life is short. You got to try on different hats and, you know, have different experiences. So um i I enjoy it.

00:01:49.02
smacey
Yeah. Right on. Yeah. Well, we had your, your co-host on Jason Loftus not too long ago. And, uh, that was a really, uh, it was a good episode.

00:01:56.00
Mark Raycroft
Yes.

00:01:59.76
smacey
And, uh, from my point of view and from statistically, so I guess we just have to only have podcasters on, right? No, I'm just kidding. But, uh, your, uh, your podcast is beyond the wild, correct? Uh, we like to promote, you know, people in the industry.

00:02:11.99
Mark Raycroft
Yes.

00:02:14.32
smacey
There's enough cake for everyone as the saying goes, right?

00:02:15.93
Mark Raycroft
Oh, it's a shared industry for sure.

00:02:17.62
smacey
Um, would you,

00:02:19.92
Mark Raycroft
I mean, I think it's the mindset is different not to key into your title than, than it might've been historically. It's not a competition. It's, there's a lot out there. It's a big audience and one or two or your three or four programs don't fill the boat. Right. So, um, there are the audiences we share, we overlap a lot with other. nature wildlife oriented whether it be photography or or not but it's yeah it it's with also with the social media world i mean sharing is is where it's at right i mean it's the more people we can reach with our care about um planet earth and conservation and and inspiring people that way the better so yeah um and i did listen to jason's podcast episode with you guys it was

00:02:48.50
smacey
right

00:02:51.54
smacey
Right.

00:03:04.74
smacey
Oh, good.

00:03:10.38
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, I like the deep thoughts you guys get into.

00:03:11.17
aaronmannes
Thank you.

00:03:11.38
smacey
What do you.

00:03:13.41
Mark Raycroft
it's it's it's ah It's a different flavor than other podcasts that way. so Oh, painful.

00:03:17.54
smacey
Well, we're going to go there with you today too. Um, hopefully naturally, hopefully naturally it always, it always seems to go that way.

00:03:20.67
Mark Raycroft
All right.

00:03:24.68
Mark Raycroft
Start.

00:03:25.97
smacey
But, uh, you know, you said something interesting there. I want to go off for my notes here. You said something along the lines along the lines of, I guess there's more room compared to historically. Was there more gatekeeping in the past? I mean, you've been in this industry, uh, respectable amount of time. Um, I guess I'm referring to photography here, not podcasting. Would you say that the photographer world's better than it was five, 10 years ago, worse, simply different?

00:03:49.49
Mark Raycroft
right

00:03:55.42
Mark Raycroft
Well, it's a long answer. There's so many different ways to look at it, right? um It's changed radically what cameras can do and and the internet platforms, the applications of photography are vastly different and much broader than they were traditionally.

00:04:00.51
smacey
Yeah.

00:04:14.83
Mark Raycroft
But traditionally it was a much smaller field of people. I mean, it was only supported by largely print media back in the day. So there were, um, a fraction of of the professional photographers or serious photographers that there are now, but it was more also expense related. It's different now because you can get every year the cameras evolve and become more automatic and and more sophisticated in in a way that they perform and give the results almost perfectly to the photographer. It's mainly now a challenge of composition and

00:04:54.03
Mark Raycroft
bigger challenge I see for people as generally speaking is is quality of light in in the images. That's something that people don't focus on as much as traditionally ah with the smaller market of professionals. But what I meant by expense was it was film, right? So every image was 50 cents roughly on professional slide film to take.

00:05:11.14
smacey
Yeah.

00:05:15.04
Mark Raycroft
So that translates into twenty or thirty thousand dollars a year for a professional photographer and there has to be funding to support that plus the expense of travel and all the other things that we still are subject to. So that's changed a lot but one had to really get into the career path to support the film component of what it cost to be a serious photographer. So now with digital photography, and you know, I've, we're filming this tonight, I put a two terabyte card in the camera to make sure there's enough enough space.

00:05:48.59
Mark Raycroft
I mean, what we can, I can shoot for that on that card for still photos for weeks. Right.

00:05:55.22
smacey
Right.

00:05:55.57
Mark Raycroft
Um. and it doesn't cost anything. So the whole world of photography, and and I'm sure your audience is is aware about it, it's changed dramatically, but in the equipment is far superior. At first when things went to digital, it was there was years of speculation in the publishing industry that it would hold up and resistance to change because, you know, professional slide film was a known commodity for how it would reproduce. When things went digital, There were all kinds of different file formats, all kinds of chaos with monitor calibrations and what, you know, digital, um, the first or second generation of camera, the small megapixels, what the editors would get was a whole would run the gamut and it wouldn't necessarily be the fault of the photographer. It's the equipment and their editing equipment, all those things. It was a learning curve and had to be evolved for the, um,

00:06:51.04
Mark Raycroft
the software side of things as well. So, I mean, there's so much that's changed in photography, but there's never been a more exciting time to be in photography and never, at least in my lifetime, obviously, and and before that photography was a, you know, put the, I'm not quite that old, but, you know, put the curtain over your head and hit the bulb.

00:06:59.43
smacey
Mm.

00:07:10.39
Mark Raycroft
um There's never been a time that's been better for people to pick up a camera and and collect impressive images and and because of the equipment and the ease of getting into still some cost involved. But, you know, it's in the thousands of dollars. Um, it is still substantial.

00:07:31.32
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

00:07:32.42
Mark Raycroft
Maybe, you know, somebody has to spend five, $10,000 to get the equipment, the lenses they want to achieve the goals they have in mind. But once they have that, it's not like it was with film, right? Where every trip, you know, do you take a hundred rolls of film? How do you expose it? You don't know how, I mean, this is obvious too. You don't know it how things turned out until you're back. You know, you've got a bracket in the field, whereas now, what you see is what you get on the mirrorless cameras which is phenomenal and again it's a fantastic time to become a photographer in any genre.

00:08:09.76
smacey
Yeah. Is it, is, is that excitement, surely because of the low barrier for cost, the low barrier to entry based on costs or are there, you know, is there anything else that excites you about the current day of digital photography?

00:08:10.28
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:08:24.76
Mark Raycroft
Well, no, let's see the low the low access point doesn't doesn't the cost point doesn't excite me because i'm in the profession either way it's for people wanting to get into it that is is the appeal but Yeah, well that's changed right but definitely that's that's uh, um, that's a whole new area of the feel of the career of the business that was um

00:08:34.24
smacey
understood. It's exciting for you that other people can come, come hang is what I'm saying, ah you know, can come, and can come participate.

00:08:54.37
Mark Raycroft
not really tapped into traditionally. So the whole photo tour and sharing that with people. ah the experience to have them come along to places that we've learned how to make successful trips from is is wonderful. it's It's joyous, right? On so many levels. And that's new. um But to add on to your and my answer to your question, it's not just the cost point that's appealing. It's the quality of the cameras and what they're capable of doing so that people are ah happier with the results

00:09:29.94
Mark Raycroft
right out of the gate sooner. They become better sooner because the equipment is superior from what it used to be.

00:09:32.83
smacey
Mm hmm.

00:09:34.94
Mark Raycroft
And somebody brought it up on our podcast not too long ago. And I thought it was a very interesting perspective. So especially with photo tours, people get great images right away when the experience happens and it takes that pressure off of them. It yeah was Tim Urban, I think, yeah, on a recent episode. and he he guides as well. um But they let their shoulders down with his description. You relax because they know they've had some success because the cameras are better than they ever have been.

00:10:03.44
aaronmannes
Thank

00:10:06.36
Mark Raycroft
So whether it's an individual doing a trip or whether it's someone like myself guiding other photographers, there's still that that quick, faster achievement because of the of what cameras can do now compared to even a generation or two of back to DSLRs and before that.

00:10:09.26
aaronmannes
you.

00:10:26.68
aaronmannes
it is that exciting ah in in terms of your own personal let's call it a game your own personal game is that something that excites you or is the traditional way more exciting i feel like being able to have 20 frames per second and the shutter starts clicking a second before you you know, it buffers a second before you even click the shutter to get the shot that you missed. um Does that take away some of the, yeah, it's not the way the game was played. It kind of reminds me of the the golf diehards that use the the wooden sticks and the feathery ball just to traditionally, you know, like, I'm not using this new equipment and these new balls that go forever. Like I want to play the way we used to play and challenge myself.

00:11:08.78
aaronmannes
I think there was a long period of like, they had the science to make a ball fly straight. Like if you set it up right on the tee, it would go straight no matter what you did. But it didn't catch on because it took away some of the the challenge, the skill, the the effort, the practice to get there, the the hours that you put in the field.

00:11:28.89
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, again, it's a great question. um It depends on how where you're coming from and looking at it. For somebody who's learned photography from the traditional ways, um this makes it easier. I mean, I've seen reels and memes joking about it on social media where somebody just runs out of the house with a blindfold on, points the camera at the sky.

00:11:53.53
smacey
That's me.

00:11:53.63
Mark Raycroft
Was that you?

00:11:54.12
smacey
I made that exact real.

00:11:54.50
Mark Raycroft
was i okay there we are and he and he got the shot right so thanks i yeah so yeah they're awesome Seth that that that some that summarized it to that extreme right of of

00:11:59.73
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:11:59.94
smacey
I thought you were being sarcastic and just straight, you know, referencing me. That's amazing.

00:12:13.70
smacey
Right. Yeah.

00:12:15.19
Mark Raycroft
What's what is where it's going? So there's but my favorite aspect of wildlife photography and I know with guests that you've had and and and guests that we've had on our show we we get into a little bit of that what what feeds them and mine is the animal behavior I love working with wild animals in wild places and in the elements and interpreting their behavior to try and get images that relay their natural behavior. It tells the story of how they live in their world and interact with them. That's not the camera to me is a wonderful tool that facilitates that and allows for a profession out of it. And

00:12:56.36
Mark Raycroft
Now tours do that. I don't need that. I mean, I still photograph it and there's psychology, which is interesting behind that component of it that I learned when I started tours. But, um, you know, I don't need a camera to, to enjoy being there and it's, it's the animal interaction and now sharing that in with other people. And just saying, okay, watch this now. and And I can tell what's going to come because of the years I've had with whatever species we're focusing on. And because of their attention to that detail, it happens. I love sharing that with with people that join us, um or even just friends on trips. But the...

00:13:40.43
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, so the the cameras, it's, I, I enjoy the 20 frames a second. I mean, it's extremely rare not to have something turn out now.

00:13:51.36
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:13:51.38
Mark Raycroft
So there's gratification in that. Uh, traditionally we were shooting 50 ISO or 50 speed slide film, right? Uh, Fujifilvia was the go-to forever and 50.

00:14:00.23
aaronmannes
Right.

00:14:05.47
Mark Raycroft
I mean, if you just think about that for a second, how restricting is that for light? So we would see so much with a lot of animals, especially well all kinds of animals, but one specifically that I focus on are active early and late in the day. So there'd be many times something wonderfully dramatic was happening and we would be sitting back and just observing it, which is fine. But as a professional, there's no material coming out of it because it was too dark for 50 ISO. So your question, I love that now we can capture those moments. And like I said, it's rare. Something doesn't turn out because of the capabilities of the equipment.

00:14:46.78
Mark Raycroft
It does change the landscape professionally because it used to be those that had developed the skill set to work with slides were able to sell them where now everybody can go on a photo on a trip of any sort and take 10,000 images and everybody practically gets wonderful shots, something you know, turn out and then that changes.

00:14:53.87
aaronmannes
Right.

00:15:09.43
Mark Raycroft
There's been a lot of change in the landscape of professional photography and especially wildlife and nature photography in the where the applications are to make revenue because of the abundance of images now.

00:15:24.67
aaronmannes
Yeah, it's true. I was thinking just on our trip where we're we're in a boat and we're all seeing, you know, 15 bears in three hours. And probably between the five of us, we had I'm gonna guess maybe with the group, 8,000 photos, right? And if that's that's all film and you're and your're developing that, that's that thousands of dollars. um i'm and I'm curious what, so we have a group, we have five people on a boat, we're doing the same bears, you mentioned lighting, ah you mentioned composition, is there anything else that differentiates

00:15:59.89
aaronmannes
in this landscape of photography for professionals to sell. Like we're all going away from that trip with probably great photos with great equipment, great lenses. And if we all want to sell, what else is there that differentiates the professional from maybe what's now become a bigger average. The bell curve is pretty big in terms of the average photographer because the knowledge that we have and the equipment that we have of where things are and the trips that we can book we can go get amazing photos ah day one.

00:16:32.51
aaronmannes
Last year in Banff remember the two girls that this is the first week of wildlife photography and they're shooting grizzly bears and cubs and an elk and

00:16:36.33
smacey
Yeah, this is funny.

00:16:42.04
aaronmannes
ah the most incredible landscapes in North America, arguably, and getting like upset about missing shots. and ah i like Seth and I were both like, we've been doing this for years. like I haven't seen a grizzly bear since I started. like You guys need to calm down about being upset about missing a shot. like this is This is the game. You miss shots. You miss shots.

00:17:03.42
Mark Raycroft
every time.

00:17:03.44
smacey
Yeah.

00:17:03.58
aaronmannes
You have to be okay.

00:17:03.60
smacey
If I could shoot at grizzly bear on my first time out, I'm i' in my yard practicing on chipmunks and blowing it.

00:17:10.14
aaronmannes
yeah

00:17:10.26
smacey
And it's funny though, but I, yeah, I mean to add on Aaron, right?

00:17:11.29
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:17:15.24
smacey
I mean, you don't want to sound sour and be like, Oh my God, beginners have it so easy now. I mean, it's great. People get to have these great encounters and it's awesome. And the gear allows people to do that. But yeah, just to say what you said, Aaron, if everybody becomes great, is anybody great? Not that it's a competition, but yeah, how do you stand out? How do you continue to push the bar?

00:17:39.92
Mark Raycroft
Well, um, access is, is far more, it's much more common now to know where to go because of social media. Right. Before that, people had to dig really hard or get lucky or know somebody would say, you know, here's where you need to go to see these animals. So that's changed dramatically and flooded the world with wonderful images. Nothing wrong with that. as a professional something or or as somebody who was wanting to get the most of it, everybody on their first trip or even the first trip of that year to redo a species shoots like crazy to begin with, just with the excitement of being there, right? Not not as as critical and and and careful with what they're collecting it out of the gate, which makes total sense.

00:18:29.17
Mark Raycroft
but When you're in those opportunities, like you're describing with your recent bear trip, something to, I mean, at the end of the day, I always like to have that deep breath and have time to enjoy the whole environment.

00:18:39.17
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

00:18:43.69
Mark Raycroft
I mean, and not just focus on images, right? Be grateful and have gratitude for where one is in these amazing animals and the whole, all the sensory things going on around. That aside, as somebody who's really wanting to capitalize on imagery, it's the variety of images that one can get with different lenses and different light angles and different behaviors as the animals move. It requires a lot of focus and Instead of just coming out with a few portraits or maybe a close-up in a landscape, there's a whole variety of a wealth of of compositions and angles and lighting, and especially throughout the day and as light changes and dramatic effects. So it's training one's eye to the potential.

00:19:31.22
Mark Raycroft
what they can collect the behavior that close ups the habitat and maximizing that so that the portfolio is full so that's maybe where it differentiates i mean for me if i'm working with a magazine i'm wanting to do a feature i wanna make sure i have the images to support that feature so in my mind and has to be there when i started i mean i can't say i wanna write this article and i'll have the images two years from now.

00:19:50.04
aaronmannes
Right.

00:19:57.51
Mark Raycroft
So on these trips, it's really important to maximize what the animal's doing and playing with the light around them to create a great variety and make a portfolio of dramatically different images from it.

00:20:10.57
aaronmannes
Yeah, let me I want to tease something out because you just I think you just hit something with me and and I'm part of the age of of new mirrorless cameras. So um I mean shortly after I started that's that was in the shopping cart, you know, and it was a Nikon Z. So it wasn't that good and I still had to work to get those images focus. Yeah, but They've come a long way, I've heard, but I've since jumped ship.

00:20:35.22
Mark Raycroft
Like they're awesome now.

00:20:36.41
aaronmannes
ah But I think you raise it. Yeah, awesome. they they they had a They had a minute.

00:20:39.58
Mark Raycroft
Yeah. That's, it's one right here filming me, not the Z, but the Z something.

00:20:42.23
aaronmannes
Oh, good. Great. I love it. Um, I, I miss a lot about it, but I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. That's a different story.

00:20:51.00
Mark Raycroft
Where'd you go?

00:20:51.03
aaronmannes
and That's a different podcast. I went to Sony, you know?

00:20:53.99
Mark Raycroft
Yeah. Okay. Sony's fantastic.

00:20:56.31
aaronmannes
Yeah. Uh, I've been happy since I do miss like the color profile and Nikon is just a beautiful. Sure. Anyways, when you're describing this and you're describing each c click is money in a sense, ah you know, back in the day and Seth likes to throw in little age jabs. I just want you to be aware of that as we continue. He often says little things like, when you were first starting out and I was in high school and things like that, um but

00:21:24.77
Mark Raycroft
Mm

00:21:27.43
smacey
In the womb.

00:21:28.80
aaronmannes
No, and for journal, like you're going out for a specific shot in mind. And I think that aspect has definitely changed for people. And it's something that people should potentially think about if they're loving photography. Whereas you might go out and say, what what ISO film do I need to capture this silhouette of a bear in the landscape? and I need this bear to be 100 yards from me.

00:21:50.99
Mark Raycroft
hmm.

00:21:52.76
aaronmannes
I need this sunset or sunrise to be perfect. I need it to walk across this sandbar in front of me. And that is the photo I'm going for ahead of time versus I'm going with my camera. I'm just going to blast. so Here's a hundred pictures of a chipmunk. Here's a hundred pictures of a squirrel. Here's a hundred pictures of ah a fox that day. Awesome.

00:22:10.94
Mark Raycroft
Who loves to edit?

00:22:12.70
aaronmannes
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I think going out with. is that something that holds people back in the long term these days because you you go out with not a clear view of what you want to be shooting and just sort of plateau maybe with like all these pretty good shots you know like close-ups of bears we have 800 close-ups of bears from that day and then you get back and you're like how many of these are am i going to edit in post versus I went out with bears all day. Did I try to get my wide angle out? Did I try to get this shot with it in isolation with just the water in the background? Like, did I try these different things, uh, which would help my per for like portfolio versus just blasting away and feeling like, Oh, I got great shots, but o I don't know. Nothing really stands out. Do you feel like the technology in the longterm, unless you really dig past it, can hold people back?

00:23:13.62
Mark Raycroft
Uh, it's, I think, you know, we all have images that move us and that, that we remember. And now traditionally a couple of years ago, Seth, and, and still to some extent it's in magazines, we see them more in books. Right. So, and, or now.

00:23:31.75
aaronmannes
Mm-hmm. Explain books and magazines to Seth.

00:23:36.26
smacey
I just, I queued in on that jab later.

00:23:38.80
Mark Raycroft
what

00:23:39.42
smacey
That was a little delayed for me. Don't worry, my brain's still developing. That's why.

00:23:44.99
Mark Raycroft
I'm glad we're recording this here because the GoPro just got too hot and got upset and shut off.

00:23:47.81
aaronmannes
Ah, who makes GoPro?

00:23:51.74
Mark Raycroft
Interesting.

00:23:53.05
aaronmannes
Nikon?

00:23:53.19
smacey
Wow.

00:23:53.98
Mark Raycroft
does ze know no it's is it so No, it's not Sony. It's GoPro themselves.

00:23:58.68
smacey
It is, yeah.

00:23:58.85
aaronmannes
and Themselves.

00:24:00.40
Mark Raycroft
But the Z9 is still recording, so we'll have some of this vertical.

00:24:00.48
aaronmannes
but

00:24:03.14
aaronmannes
Beautiful camera.

00:24:05.51
Mark Raycroft
um it's

00:24:10.13
Mark Raycroft
I think so we have those images that move us that are, you know, there may only be half a dozen first particular species and we're, we somehow program our minds to try and emulate them. And they're always there. I i don't go. in the field. um And a few years ago, when there was slide film, it was you didn't have there weren't different slide films I picked from. It was Velvea 50. It had the best color at the best grain. And we worked with that with what light and and what was capable.

00:24:39.88
aaronmannes
Gotcha.

00:24:41.03
Mark Raycroft
There was Pro via 100. We pushed 200, but it was flattering color wouldn't sell as well. um So we have these images that move us that are are iconic in our minds. And maybe we have the opportunity on a trip to try and recreate that for ourselves or something close to it. And that's always there. I don't go out with that mindset. I go out with the best tools and equipment I can and and try to stay open to what the experience offers.

00:25:13.28
Mark Raycroft
And what's really magical is even revisiting the same destinations in consecutive years, it's never the same.

00:25:23.56
aaronmannes
Mmhmm.

00:25:23.84
Mark Raycroft
What you encounter isn't the same, whether it's species or animals or behavior or weather or light. All those variables are shifting and and the multitude of combinations of of those create new opportunities every time. And I think part of the thrill and fun of a photographer, someone who's visually creative with this art form is watching it and doing their best interpretation with the equipment and creating the variety of images as they can. And again, if I was to

00:25:55.98
Mark Raycroft
strongly recommend areas of focus for people. It's quality of light. That's always been number one. You know, harsh light midday does nothing. Now it might on social media, it might if it's a behavioral video that can tie into a reel with the right song. You never know. But as far as the um appeal in in the professional realm and publishing art or galleries, it's it's the light, it's the impact of that. Then there's composition and subject.

00:26:27.64
Mark Raycroft
but to pay attention to those details.

00:26:28.63
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:26:30.25
Mark Raycroft
and And the cameras, I mean, you can do so much as well in the software now too, right? Post, ah Photoshop or Lightroom can do and have dramatic effects on images, white balance, shifting those things, you know, softening things up for light, making it richer, more vibrant without going too far.

00:26:43.57
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:26:52.09
aaronmannes
Good.

00:26:52.41
Mark Raycroft
I hope that answered your question.

00:26:53.61
aaronmannes
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

00:26:55.04
Mark Raycroft
Seth. Throw one, man. Throw a dab.

00:26:57.72
aaronmannes
Roland, come on.

00:26:59.18
smacey
Well, you're.

00:26:59.48
Mark Raycroft
I'm not stoked at that. You know, I can, I still visualize popping out at the door and doing that. And it was, it was one of those things that just stuck with me. It's like, yeah, it's going there, but not that far, but it was funny. It was well played.

00:27:12.68
smacey
ah Thank you.

00:27:12.98
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:27:14.22
smacey
ah Obviously, it's satire it's a little more involved than that, but so.

00:27:16.86
Mark Raycroft
No, definitely.

00:27:21.26
smacey
We were kind of touching on the topic of everyone's getting good images now, right? We just touched on what's required to make maybe a great image, right? So even on another layer, what do you think is going to be required for outdoor nature photographers to continue to make a living? Maybe people who are newer in the fields, who don't, yeah I'm sure people have been following your work for a good amount of time, right? What's going to be required do you think for people who are looking to do what you do, who lack the experience?

00:28:00.88
Mark Raycroft
Well, it keeps changing. The opportunities in this field continue to evolve and change and new ones emerge. And it's I don't think one can do a clear template like it used to be. There's so many opportunities. I mean, it used to be publishing. One would build a portfolio of quality work and select where they wanted to see it and try. It's no different than a job application somewhere. Right. You go in with and have and have an interview and and see if it works. And in this case, you submit it your portfolio, but it would have to be tied into some context that relayed or improved on what they were doing. It's very different now. And so, you know, there are other ways to do it. And I don't.

00:28:52.53
Mark Raycroft
It's, I don't think there's a quick answer to say, hey, this is what you should do if you're new in photography. what I mean, if I would would summarize it, it's, you know, work on quality images and then think about what motivated that whomever you are to get into it. What what what excited you about photography? Where did you see it? What is your motivation? And everybody's different. There doesn't have to be a ah pressure to make a career out of it for most people. Those that aspire to that, well, it's like anything else in life. You have to go for it if it's your passion. And what makes that possible?

00:29:31.84
Mark Raycroft
quality, right? If you're going to be a carpenter yeah or a tradesperson, you do quality work, your reputation will spread and and more and more people will come knocking on your door. Quality is number one. don't if if there's ah If there's a market or a place where you dream of seeing your work, you know study it and make sure that your work is as good or better than what's there. before knocking and and historically it was also you you didn't get three amazing images and go running to National Geographic and say, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm the next person that you should be sending out on assignment or hiring. You should buy these your images because what would happen is that they purchased those three images and loved it. Then they say, okay, what's next? And if you don't have it, that's a problem.

00:30:21.07
aaronmannes
Mm.

00:30:21.18
Mark Raycroft
So historically, the the portfolio had to be deep before really knocking on doors or deep enough to back it up and keep moving forward to support itself. Um, but that's again, that's the, that was the print media industry, which is still viable. It still exists. It's just not as nearly as robust as it used to be. There are still lots of people who prefer to read print. I'm i'm one of them. And I don't think it's an ageism thing because when I'm on a screen, I'd rather watch a video. Then read a book on a screen or even the social media platforms make like Instagram make.

00:31:00.75
Mark Raycroft
Viewing images so easy but almost too fast something right I mean how many do how often stop and how quickly do you scroll and we know we have our network of of people we know so when we see their name come up then we hit like just automatically because of the ah you know the way we feel about the person and and and the images too but

00:31:06.07
smacey
Yeah.

00:31:21.65
Mark Raycroft
So I think print media has some life, um, still in it. Um, but as far as now getting into it, there's all kinds of different ways to generate revenue.

00:31:29.98
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

00:31:35.24
Mark Raycroft
And I'm not sure I'm the one to speak on that because, you know, I've been in this business for 30 years and I rely on a lot of the traditional, um, contacts and, and avenues that I have. I do branch out, but you know ah b there are people who are in the business for five years who maybe are doing very well financially and in different fields. I still work a lot in stock. and For me, the other thing that grows every year are the photo tours because I've always, as a biologist and as ah as a wildlife photographer for all these years and an animal behaviorist,

00:32:17.19
Mark Raycroft
I was only able to share it through articles, through books, or at talks at camera clubs and stuff like that. But to be able to take a small group of people out really is fulfilling as a guide because of what they experience. And and caribou are are um a species of concern that we've done a lot of work with and a species that not many people have direct experience with in that habitat. right that ecosystem and the environment and all the other animals that are around as well so to see people go arrive out of their busy lives at the beginning of a trip and day one with that excitement of

00:33:03.45
Mark Raycroft
let's do this let's do this let's make this successful because everybody behaves that way in in our modern society right let's right away make something happen but after a day or two of being on the land and in the wilderness and subject to the elements and the and seeing the animals everybody relaxes and it's so uh... holistic really the senses everything so by the end of the of a week with people it's It's grounded myself, but everybody is so much that it's tremendously rewarding.

00:33:36.52
Mark Raycroft
And I think for me, this, you know, wildlife and nature photography is very healthy. I mean, bad things don't happen in the field, but that's never happened to me.

00:33:45.18
aaronmannes
Mm.

00:33:49.67
Mark Raycroft
I'm getting touch on on all and all that. How far does one push oneself?

00:33:55.84
Mark Raycroft
there's i never I never feel ah more content or healthier or happier than after a week in the wild. I mean, how did you guys feel after just being in Alaska? and how did How did that affect you?

00:34:10.67
aaronmannes
i I can speak, yeah.

00:34:10.93
smacey
It's it.

00:34:13.14
aaronmannes
Just yeah right away in the summer when there's daylight for 14, 15 hours, whatever it is, I felt an immediate slow down energy from everyone.

00:34:13.13
smacey
Yeah.

00:34:25.10
aaronmannes
Like there's plenty of time to go through this day. that was the immediate feel from people that lived there and then myself and then the group um and throughout the trip it was like we could still take an hour nap and and have time for dinner and then drive around and then see sunset like there was just an ample amount of time which helped just slow down the rhythm because there was no rush we've been on other trips where You got to choose between dinner and going for sunset, like you got to make a choice and maybe eat snacks later because everything's going to be closed or whatever it is, but that creates a more rushed energy. um I think the vastness and just the the scale of everything again.

00:35:08.34
aaronmannes
and we We talk about it things that make you feel small or sort of insignificant in a good way. ah that That was very present in Alaska. Let's drive forever to the next town. There's mountains everywhere. There's bears. ever like it was just It was wild. It was wild. um And we were in a pretty populated area of Alaska. So even to feel that there, I think um just shows how vast it is. Flying in was amazing. Just like, whoa, like look at these mountains and ice fields and glaciers. And where are we?

00:35:40.17
aaronmannes
wait Where are we landing? I hope this goes well. Um, yeah, I think, I think there's a, I mean, I could talk about it forever and we probably will recap the episode or the the trip at some point on an episode, but, um, yeah, it was, it was truly amazing. And I left thinking, I can't wait to go back. Um, which doesn't happen all the time on, on any trip personal or, or work or, or what have you, but I really wanted to explore more. It left me wanting more. I just know there's so much more to explore there. So that's my piece, Seth.

00:36:13.24
smacey
Yeah, mine's gonna be interesting. I had a hell of a time. ah This was our third annual photography retreat. I've loved every single one. Funny enough, we get back from Alaska and I get sick immediately. I never get sick in the summer. And I think you'll find this interesting. And you'll probably maybe coach me or help me learn a thing or two. Mark. um So when I'm with air and running these photo trips, I am so excited, first of all, to be in a place where you know you're going to get really great experiences, meet cool people, take great photos, take great videos, whatever your thing is. My head is

00:36:57.08
smacey
so wrapped up in, I want to make sure people are having the best time, 10 out of 10. I am constantly thinking about that to a point where I can't turn it off sometimes. And I think it just activates my nervous system. And in this case, to the point where I got home, I just let down and got smoked with a cold. Right. And I i guess i'll I'll turn my experience into a question. How do you kind of settle in when you're responsible for people's paid experience on a trip?

00:37:33.29
Mark Raycroft
I think the more you do it, and that you you will be more relaxed with it. And I don't, at the beginning of a trip, um i'm I'm not, I guess, yeah, I'm never uptight about it. The only wish that occupies the front of my mind is that within the first couple of days, we have a magical experience for them to to let everybody relax into it. It doesn't have to be day one. I don't mind day one being a good workout, fun day in the field, where all kinds of other things are experienced, but maybe not the highlight.

00:38:12.00
Mark Raycroft
But again, we never know what will unfold. But that's the only pressure if if I was to describe one that I feel ah is is that they get the most out of it. I care tremendously that every guest walks away thinking it was one of their trips of a lifetime.

00:38:22.86
smacey
Yeah.

00:38:27.85
Mark Raycroft
you know I know that's cliche, but there are so many opportunities And like Aaron, you were you could go to Alaska every year for the rest of your life and not fill your boots. you know and There's so much to experience. So i just my goal is to focus and make sure all the different personalities are getting what they need and and they come away feeling that. But there might be days where it's pouring rain. or extremely windy and all these elements make people feel alive too. I mean, as long as you have the blissful light days to compliment those. So I, and I don't mean this and in any egotistical way. I think it's, I just know i I've done this professionally so long, not the guiding part, the trips myself.

00:39:18.80
smacey
Mm

00:39:19.06
Mark Raycroft
that I have confidence that people coming along, and i that I can can manage it and and deliver what they need.

00:39:23.96
smacey
-hmm.

00:39:31.36
Mark Raycroft
the The question is always, and this is where the thrill is, is wildlife. Every trip's worked out, but there's never a guarantee, but that's where the thrill comes, because there's an expectation And it's not always, you know, not every day is successful or every outing or every hike, but that's what builds so that when it is, it's, you know, it's ah a tremendous rush and joyous and then a huge celebration after. So I, it's, I feel what you're saying. And i if I was to liken it, when I was ah starting out and doing remote trips where I'd allocated

00:40:05.03
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

00:40:10.02
Mark Raycroft
you know, three weeks to go into the interior and expect to come out with a lot of images to carry me through the next year of publishing, right?

00:40:17.18
smacey
Mm hmm.

00:40:21.72
Mark Raycroft
So that pressure was there. And I think the same kind of thing happens to me that you were describing, Seth, where it was, it was almost too intense because I had such expectations on myself.

00:40:34.24
smacey
Mm

00:40:34.47
Mark Raycroft
And the same thing would happen. It would wear me down over the trip. because it's physically demanding. and then And then you do relax when you come back. But I guess what happened after a few trips, my portfolio was big enough that ever you hope it's productive any given trip due to the expense and the hope of creating images that can affect people.

00:40:58.90
smacey
hmm.

00:40:59.19
Mark Raycroft
But it wasn't do or die. So I relaxed more into it.

00:41:03.64
smacey
Right.

00:41:03.79
Mark Raycroft
And the thing, the other thing I just very quickly was alluding to ah just prior to asking about your Alaska trip is is the kind of zen you go through from day one to the to the end of your trip. So the person who lands there on any of these trips is going to be totally excited. you You know, you if whether you're in Africa or wherever you might be, you're flying over the mountains. It's surreal. You're feeling very alive and and loving every moment of it. But I think what's healthy about these trips that is really advantageous in our day and time right now is from day one to day 10, you come out a different person and it's not, it's not permanent.

00:41:53.12
Mark Raycroft
But it's just taking your natural energy and rhythm and knocked it down to to a calmer, healthier level, more perceptive, more relaxed. And I see that I feel that on trips, whereas, you know, if I'm editing for three months, I'm just wound because I'm on a computer and I'm promoting and I'm on social media and this stuff. And then I go in the field for a couple of weeks and come back. It's a total recharge. I'm just like plugging in my batteries. And so that's what I was asking um is like, did you feel that from the beginning of your trip? I mean, Alaska is so much to take in. And Erin, what you were saying makes total sense too that in the summertime, the days are amazing because they're so long.

00:42:39.87
Mark Raycroft
And you just go with it. I mean, I've done summer trips where the first three days are just like, I just love it. But day four is like, so you know, you toast.

00:42:50.06
aaronmannes
Yeah, yeah, that's the other side of that coin.

00:42:51.59
Mark Raycroft
So summer can keep you riding.

00:42:53.55
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:42:54.36
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, i I prefer the autumn trips or the spring trips when the day length is is more what we're used to. So we still can get enough rest.

00:43:04.21
aaronmannes
yeah Yeah.

00:43:05.54
Mark Raycroft
Um, as opposed to winter's too short, but it is what it is. The seasonality is what we work with. So on your trip, did you feel that it basically, it's like you meditated for 10 days. You came out a different person as far as your energies, right? I mean, you're feeling more hippie at the end of your trip, more part of the land, more. Did it resonate that way?

00:43:28.54
aaronmannes
Yeah, it for me it does. it It clicks in right away, I feel like. i I came a little bit early, so I was on my own for ah a day and a half, a day, a day before people were coming in, ah getting stuff situated, getting the the rental van, um getting ready to go, picking people up at the airport. And that time that I kind of had to just explore on my own in Alaska was, Really cool and and I again I said immediately felt like this like slow down like this who Just this complete slow down over the week like Seth's having I don't think I I have it as severe as him but Caring about the the schedule and what are we doing? Are people happy? ah Some people want to do this hike some people don't want to do this hike. Is it okay that they stay home? Are they are they grumpy about it? Are they okay with it? Like trying to read the room ah that does get exhausting

00:44:24.60
aaronmannes
um in like a normal sense. It's just, we're not worried about ourselves and the images we're getting. We're worried about them having a good time and making sure. And a lot of our stuff, because the days were so long on this trip, were pretty optional. And we had a ah varying age group of guests. So we knew like, hey, we just had dinner. We're gonna drive around and maybe do a quick hike. But feel free to relax here and get some sleep or if you want to come, let's go. Um, so we had a lot of those options, but if, I think if people keep saying, no, like we're going to relax here, we're going to relax here. You start to question, you start to wonder, hmm, they're, they're relaxing a lot in the Airbnb.

00:45:09.45
aaronmannes
And I'm not saying even our group. I'm just saying in general, like this kind of thing would happen where you could say like, Ooh, they're, they're saying no to a lot of things, but they're still having a blast.

00:45:18.81
Mark Raycroft
Mm hmm.

00:45:18.91
aaronmannes
They had a full day. They had dinner. They, they got their photos. We went on a boat tour. They just don't want to go on the ninth hike of the week. They want to get some sleep and that's okay. And I think allowing people to be adults and make decisions and, um, being okay with it. I think that's part of just growing up and having the experience of these trips over and over and over where you realize like, okay, people people have options and they're okay.

00:45:42.19
Mark Raycroft
Totally.

00:45:42.57
aaronmannes
They'll be okay.

00:45:43.70
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:43.77
smacey
Yeah, I think that's the that's the the thing I sometimes need to remind myself because I feel like I'm pretty centered and zen and chill in my everyday life. Like I'm surrounded by the forest where I'm living. And my mentality is kind of I'm in Alaska for six days, let's go hard. Right? Like, I don't know when I'll be back.

00:46:06.00
Mark Raycroft
yes

00:46:08.54
smacey
I know this is such a special and unique place on earth.

00:46:12.18
Mark Raycroft
right

00:46:12.37
smacey
I want to do the ninth hike.

00:46:14.82
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:46:15.35
smacey
And I

00:46:16.62
Mark Raycroft
And you'll have guests that feel that way too, right?

00:46:18.75
smacey
You don't. Yeah. And you'll have guests that feel that way, but you also have guests that don't.

00:46:19.99
Mark Raycroft
so in

00:46:22.25
smacey
And then I think sometimes I need to remind myself just because they don't want to go on the ninth hike, doesn't mean that you're not necessarily delivering. I don't get to the point where I'm like having an anxious moment about it. I'm just very hyper fixated on, I want these people to have a good time. I want these people to have a good time. I want them at the end of the trip saying, I will go on this a hundred percent again, 10 out of 10. Otherwise to me, it's, you could have done a lot better. um And so I don't maybe necessarily have the zen moment that you described while I'm there.

00:46:56.23
smacey
I think I get home and I reflect on it and I'm like, wow, that was so cool.

00:46:58.87
aaronmannes
yeah

00:47:00.41
smacey
I can let down and kind of and kind of mellow and melt into the nostalgia the recent nostalgia of it.

00:47:09.38
aaronmannes
There's cool.

00:47:09.46
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, it carries forward.

00:47:10.02
aaronmannes
and mark Mark, I'm sure you've had this too. There's these cool moments with group members, whether last year it's some getting their first, you know, learning how to use a camera and then and getting photos of grizzly bears or or bears and and these landscapes. and and starting a social media account and like getting into photography for, you know, it's been a year and some of our members are like really blossoming and you're like, they start from nothing. And then ah that trip, look at look, how look how far they've come. um And in this trip,

00:47:42.64
aaronmannes
You have these moment like ah one of one of our guests Karen came home and bought the Z8 like button She's like I need a new camera. i'm I'm in love with photography again. My stuff was old I'm i'm going head in um I already bought it like it's coming. It's coming the next day um and that's cool because you it's just these little like ah we We did a good enough job. we did a People had fun enough where now one person, ah even if it's just the one, is ah is addicted to photography and bought new equipment and wants to dive into it a little bit more.

00:48:14.13
smacey
of us

00:48:15.18
aaronmannes
after

00:48:15.31
smacey
one of us one of us

00:48:16.90
aaronmannes
what Yeah, we got them.

00:48:17.93
Mark Raycroft
Awning.

00:48:19.18
aaronmannes
Um, so you have these moments with group members and where they share a photo where they they edit something in a cool way. And you were on the boat with them and you're like, Oh, I didn't see that look. And, and they were able to do something and it just makes you go like, uh, that was, that was so fun. Uh, where you reflect and yes, you see their growth, you see their excitement.

00:48:40.32
smacey
One of us, one of us, one of us.

00:48:40.45
aaronmannes
Um, It's been two weeks and our group is still talking and chatting and, uh, almost every day sharing little, little things. Yeah. Yeah. Bonding and and it continues. And I'm sure they'll like our other groups where we have connections for life. Uh, so it is, there there is a special thing to it. There's a special energy to it. Of course, we want everyone to have a great time and, um, you know, like that's goes without saying, but yeah.

00:49:06.28
Mark Raycroft
Well, you do your best, for sure.

00:49:08.01
aaronmannes
Yeah. Do your best.

00:49:10.47
smacey
i mean trying to I always try to figure out before guests come on what their take is going to be on social media. I can't figure you out, Mark. so Is it something you love?

00:49:18.24
Mark Raycroft
Oh, really?

00:49:19.63
smacey
Hey, you've mentioned it a lot in this episode. I predict that it's not necessarily something you're like, I love it. It's so great. I'm sure I feel like I'm going to guess and you're probably going to tell me I'm wrong. but I think it's another way for you to consume the natural world that you love so much. Keep up with the people in your circle who you care about, get inspired. And I feel like you're you view it as a tool to continue your your business and your photographic journey. set Is that maybe the good? And if so, also tell me the bad, maybe if there is any.

00:49:59.38
Mark Raycroft
Uh, I enjoy it thoroughly.

00:50:01.13
smacey
Fully? Thoroughly. Okay.

00:50:03.38
Mark Raycroft
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's a great sharing platform. It can, it, I think it has to be moderated and, and, and, um, how much time and and how much, um, seriousness people take it. Uh, for I do enjoy keeping up with friends, you know, and we don't often or share the same space, maybe once or twice a year on trips.

00:50:21.38
smacey
Mm hmm.

00:50:27.03
Mark Raycroft
or phone calls here and there, but every couple of days, seeing a friend's image is a way to connect because of comments. So I think it's, I enjoy that. I enjoy seeing the potential of what's out there in different places, learning about destinations and types of photography that well, it's right at your fingertips. so and it is important it's become the the strongest sharing tool out there you know we all had websites and we still do and i mean the meat of it's on the website but you know even even our editors pick off the social media more often than the website and it's like that shot they want that shot that they just saw you know and it's

00:51:16.98
Mark Raycroft
Um, so it's, it's useful that way. It's this, it's visually the strongest communication tool that I know of right now. And I do enjoy it. It's just, um, one has, I have to, I mean, everybody's different, but I, you know, it each day take a, take a step back from it and be in reality and, and not something I would caution. you know aspiring photographers is not to let it dissuade your interest because you see images that are seemingly perfect. The experiences on this planet in your lifetime are there for you too and it will be different for you and equally rewarding.

00:51:57.86
Mark Raycroft
and whether or not the image looks the same as the iconic one that you might have seen. um it's It's always worth doing and it's much richer in person than it is on the screen because there's all the senses it's happening. That bear is there. Whether or not to get the image, the most important thing was you just spent days with this animal that was just incredible. So to stay motivated that way and to live life and do the trips. But I i enjoy social media because it's a wealth, just a stream of visual delight. It's just, I think, again, just to caution not to let it overwhelm.

00:52:42.13
smacey
Where does it rank in the priorities for a you as a photographer who does this for a living? Where does it lay in the priority of things to do?

00:52:50.16
Mark Raycroft
I don't.

00:52:52.81
Mark Raycroft
i don't i don't I hear more and more, and understandably so, photographers, ah people starting out saying, well, they're getting a shot to post. But um the images to me, I mean, I enjoy sharing the story, and I can't do that as well on a post unless I made a 10-minute reel describing with enthusiasm what the whole experience was like. It's just a snippet. It's just a window. to to see that visual. um So it's... Yeah, I don't... Sorry, i've I've lost track of your question. What was it again?

00:53:30.67
smacey
Well, in terms of like, let's say you could be focusing on, I'm going to, you know, plan the itinerary for our next photo trip, or I'm going to post this reel today, or I'm going to send an email to my editor.

00:53:35.67
Mark Raycroft
Oh, I see. Well, it's not.

00:53:38.75
smacey
Like, where does it fall in the ah chain of.

00:53:38.81
Mark Raycroft
it's...

00:53:41.37
Mark Raycroft
yeahs It's total balancing act. Business is like that, right? I mean, I've had many colleagues that are career wildlife photographers who are everything from the CEO to the to the male person, to the, you know, every aspect of the job has to be completed. And social media is an important marketing tool now. It's a sharing tool and a marketing tool, but all the other things still have to get done. So it's a challenge of balancing one's time. It is a very powerful and important tool. I believe, uh, from my experience, it's not, um, it's not a guarantee. It's not, you can't flip a switch and and have social media and make it work for anybody necessarily immediately. It's a lot of commitment, a lot of time, a lot of good fortune. And, um, of course there's, you know, for those that are um super serious about it, you know, thinking about the algorithms and what needs to be done for growth that way.

00:54:36.32
Mark Raycroft
And that's where other things come into potential. If they are focused on that and they do get the kind of followers that brands you know will get on board and put money towards, then that's another way to generate revenue. But as ah as a career, you know there are all all kinds of aspects to it. Clicking the shutter is just one part of it. Posting a picture is is advertising. It's just another part. You know, it used to be we would send 300 images to an editor in slides and like, here are these 300. I hope you like 50 of them. Right. And they'd hold 50 and that's what would get used over the next year. It's not now it's, this is how we show it. It's just, ah it's one aspect. And I think mentally it's got to be kept that way, but it's a little more complicated because we're sharing with friends, people we know, and we're seeing their work simultaneously.

00:55:30.48
Mark Raycroft
So it's not a one way street. It's not just, Hey, look at my stuff.

00:55:31.91
smacey
Mm hmm.

00:55:33.97
Mark Raycroft
It's, I also enjoy yours.

00:55:36.08
smacey
Right.

00:55:37.28
Mark Raycroft
And, and for what it's worth and for wherever, whatever level I, you know, the idea of sharing from podcasts and these big platforms, photography is becoming. um in my mind it's one doesn't have to be critical it's a positive experience the photographing visually seeing these things happen whether it's a butterfly in the garden or a polar bear it's all um wonderful and it's sharing that and and there's no need for any criticism so to me social media all the interactions are positive and if i'm on ah a tour guiding um i you know i

00:56:17.08
Mark Raycroft
I don't ever have an interest in critiquing people's images as far as being anywhere negative. What's important to me is like you Seth and I'm sure Erin as well. is that they're having a great time. And if they come to me and ask, I'm happy to say, well, try this, or, um, more often if I see them missing an opportunity, I'll say, Hey, you know, what do you think about this?

00:56:30.84
aaronmannes
Mm.

00:56:41.11
Mark Raycroft
You know, and try this shot. And then briefly on the psychology bit, you know, when I started guiding tours, I wasn't photographing as much. I keep the camera in the pack because I've already got 50,000 pictures of caribou, right? It's not what, what

00:56:55.28
smacey
Mm hmm.

00:56:55.51
Mark Raycroft
Still magic happens and I get super excited just like day one. I said something about wildlife photography interactions. It doesn't get old, but I wasn't shooting and it was interesting that my guests who I, some of them I knew quite well were like, is it not good enough, man? Why aren't you shooting? It's like, no, it's great. I just want to make sure you guys are getting what you want. So I was like, okay, then If I'm shooting a show enthusiasm, then that helps them realize that it's it's great.

00:57:26.64
Mark Raycroft
Things are are good.

00:57:27.75
aaronmannes
Yeah, a good point.

00:57:28.56
Mark Raycroft
So I try to do that while also encouraging them and just watching that they're having a good time with their own experience.

00:57:34.52
smacey
Pray.

00:57:35.90
Mark Raycroft
It's their own experience. They don't have to. come away with a you know a number one award-winning shot and to them what matters is it to them it is right that's and more so the experience you know they they leave whatever species the tour is about they leave as an ambassador of that species and love it and appreciate what they are that all those layers to me i love the psychology of it i love the the personalities and the challenges of that and trying to make sure that

00:58:08.93
Mark Raycroft
Everybody gets the most out of those layers of the experience not just the photography It's a vehicle to raise a tool but which as you as know Seth as you pointed out after the trip you can you can Soak it in and and reflect on what happens and that's the joy of we all remember The our experiences and we all miss, you know, no matter how experienced we are we miss images every trip it happens You know, nobody's perfect

00:58:15.91
smacey
Right.

00:58:16.45
aaronmannes
Yeah. Mhm.

00:58:37.76
Mark Raycroft
But photography and the videos allow us to go back and relive these lifetime highlights. And that's where Instagram's like that too, in the sense that I love putting a reel together. It takes more time, but it's like, it encapsulates ah bit of that a bit of that mood. And for me, it's like a photo album. The Instagram is. So I just came back from a family trip to Australia. We had an amazing day with humpback whales.

00:59:09.32
Mark Raycroft
So I did i did a reel and it it just, you know, it's not something I need all of the audience to love necessarily.

00:59:09.99
smacey
Mm hmm.

00:59:18.02
Mark Raycroft
For me, it means something. It's like like a photo album. And I think that's nice about everybody's page. You know, you can see what moves these people and their history of their trips and where, you know, what is meaningful to them. So I think there's more to it when you get to know different people and their pages than, than just the quick click, click, click through the, through the feed.

00:59:40.11
aaronmannes
Yeah.

00:59:41.20
smacey
Right.

00:59:42.46
aaronmannes
Yeah, I wish people would trend away from the trends and do it actually. is meaningful and in some sort of way and it being more authentic to either their personality and their personality can be creative and trendy but just to blindly copy there's this new one it's like a one second video and it's like do this one second thing with a beep and it'll go viral and i've seen a thousand of them and it's it's nothing it's so there's nothing there's no substance it's just about people watching it or getting stuck on it for a while and that makes you feel good somehow

01:00:02.95
smacey
Ugh.

01:00:17.12
aaronmannes
ah I wish we would get away from that and and do whether it takes 90 seconds or 60 seconds to show your Alaska trip. And you know, this isn't going to do well because people are going by it so quickly, but the people that care and the audience that cares and you that care and whomever will actually watch it and get some true value out of it. Uh, I wish that were the, uh, the trend of it, but yeah, they do.

01:00:41.28
Mark Raycroft
Well, they do though, right? Those that do care and that's who it's for, right?

01:00:45.61
aaronmannes
I have a, I've,

01:00:45.59
Mark Raycroft
And you can do a whole bunch of reels on your Alaska trip. Tell the whole story, right?

01:00:49.84
aaronmannes
Yeah, for sure. I have a somewhat maybe controversial question. um Since I've started, which again isn't too long ago in terms of the wildlife game and what have you, there's there's you you go on to social media and it it is a different environment than even it was five years ago. like five years ago, and maybe it's algorithm or who you follow or what you tend to do, but it just seemed few and far in between like these amazing encounters or these amazing photos and you would who truly be inspired. Now it it is very inundated. um And maybe it's because of our Alaska trip, but I can't see, I can't go on social media without seeing 10,000 grizzly bear, brown bear, amazing photos. um And then the trend of, I feel like

01:01:37.88
aaronmannes
reels that are getting closer and closer and closer and closer and closer to animals. And those are the ones that tend to get a lot of attention because obviously closeness to another being and another animal that is exciting that is thrilling. um As a biologist and author someone that's been in this for a long time ah the ethics in photography, the ethics in and guiding, in biology, the animal behavior, what have you, do you see a ah dangerous trend for those that don't know? You did say it is easy for people to get into photography. Seth and I know many people that just picked up a camera and they go straight to Yellowstone and are photographing grizzly bears off the road and and getting super, super close.

01:02:23.86
aaronmannes
Do you think there's some responsibility that needs to be held in terms of what we're showing?

01:02:31.63
Mark Raycroft
Well, I don't think that's going to change because the broader audience, the human nature wants that that walk the edge ah experience, the thrill. you know The wildlife nature photographer component of Instagram is tiny compared to the the world at large and what's consumed that way. So it's always going to be the

01:02:50.53
aaronmannes
Right.

01:02:51.75
Mark Raycroft
the eye candy that gets of that intensity that gets gets the most traction, in my opinion. And and those that want that will continue to do that. As far as you know I think my wildlife photography doesn't usually There are a few places, but doesn't usually mean leaning out a window of a car and standing on asphalt and taking pictures. It's still meaningful to do that because you're still seeing the animal, but I i like to be um hiking you know a long way and and having

01:03:30.66
Mark Raycroft
more intimate and experiences in wild places that are not often near people. Some of them are, but I prefer it not been quieter. And so there I think it's for those that are able to do that, and it takes experience. And that's where guiding comes in. And I'm not really i'm not trying to pitch this hard, but it's not the point of bringing it up.

01:03:57.56
Mark Raycroft
learning from somebody how to safely go into the backcountry or into the wilderness to be a wildlife photographer. Doing trips with experienced people is is helpful to learn how how to do it or you know we repeating and I'm sure you guys too will have repeating guests who just like the comfort of your knowledge with different species or even the same one and not having to stress about what's going to happen each day on their own and go with you. But as far as the ethics of proximity, um I mean, common sense with anything we do in life, you know, is important. And people to me, if you have common sense, you don't need to put um yourself

01:04:46.85
Mark Raycroft
people around you or the animal at risk for the sake of a photograph. It's a photograph, right? Or more video.

01:04:52.07
aaronmannes
Right.

01:04:53.29
Mark Raycroft
In our telephoto lenses, I mean, one of the reasons, I mean, I've been Nikon my whole career. I did shoot Canon for a bit. Fantastic. Canon's fantastic. Sony's fantastic. There's so many great pieces of equipment out there. So i'm not I'm not necessarily doing a big pitch on Nikon, but the 800 millimeter is why I went back to Nikon. from Canon and the kind of power with the 45 megapixel sensor on an 800 millimeter, what you can accomplish is amazing now.

01:05:24.27
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:05:25.71
Mark Raycroft
You don't need to be close. And so i there are times that it happens. right I mean ah you can can be focused on a moose and another moose has come through. And it's amazing how Big animals can be so quiet in the right situation the right weather.

01:05:40.70
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:05:42.83
Mark Raycroft
It's just rained, you know So and as it's a thrill and you hope you know Something bad doesn't happen, but that's wildlife. It is being out there It's no different than and I've you know heard this comparison before but you know different taking the subway in Toronto, New York City Things can happen, right?

01:06:00.79
aaronmannes
yeah

01:06:00.98
Mark Raycroft
but it's a matter of of not pushing it and I think um Especially as I had more experience over the years instead of trying to get close to an animal With the telephoto capability we can be far enough back back from them that they behave more naturally and Cool stuff happens then. Yeah sure in the other situation. They may be looking at the camera You get good eye contact and you get a good Portrait, but if you want the animal to relax and start doing behavior Being further away is better

01:06:36.48
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:06:37.08
Mark Raycroft
So if you want the wolf just to look at you as a walking by, but if if, you know, if they're going to start playing, you know, if you're not as close, you might get that, right?

01:06:42.25
aaronmannes
Yep.

01:06:45.33
Mark Raycroft
Or the pups come out, the pups didn't come out because there was pressure.

01:06:48.01
aaronmannes
Yep.

01:06:48.91
Mark Raycroft
But if the person's farther away, the rendezvous site, the pups show up and they start howling as the other wolf comes back. I said, whoa, that was pretty amazing. So yeah, I think people should always be aware of, um, pressuring animals at the same time. um You know, there's I think there are extremes Where it's you know, there's super sensitivity where it's like well if the animal looks at you and alters its behavior you've affected it Well, I'm an animal too. I live on this planet. We are human beings.

01:07:19.32
Mark Raycroft
We live in, you know, urban areas We're overpopulated, but I'm in the wild with this animal. They're more perceptive than me right because they live this world their senses are dialed in and

01:07:27.89
aaronmannes
Mmhmm.

01:07:31.39
Mark Raycroft
I strive to have my senses dialed in, but there's no way. They're going to know I'm there. They're going to look, they're going to go away or or not. and And so, you know, I never want to push an animal by any means because it's just photography. The magical stuff happens without doing that. but i I like to feel like I'm in the environment with them. And just to close on that subject, the animals that are near roads in places like Yellowstone or in the Rockies um are habituated. They've been raised there. So they're not stressed by people. They're stressed if people get too close, 100%.

01:08:09.77
Mark Raycroft
but they're there for varying reasons. you know Grizzly sows will have their cubs and be around people sometimes because they want to stay away from the boars in national parks where they are used to people. They see them walking trails, riding their bikes, driving the cars, the dogs barking, you know, all these elements. So if a bear, you know, that being said, they do travel. Not every bear that is at a road lives there, but those that do are habituated. um But bears do, as other animals do, travel long distances, and there can be one just crossing that's not. But the point is, um they're usually used to people, but at the same time, it doesn't make sense

01:08:54.20
Mark Raycroft
for the sake of a selfie with a smartphone over the shoulder. That's just silly stuff, right?

01:08:58.60
aaronmannes
Right.

01:08:59.21
Mark Raycroft
and if it If it's close enough to put danger on any of the elements.

01:08:59.34
aaronmannes
Right.

01:09:06.05
Mark Raycroft
so But that that's that happens roadside because it's where people, it's a concentration of people when

01:09:10.79
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:09:14.59
Mark Raycroft
When you go on a um trip to do wildlife photography off the road, it's amazing how quickly you lose people and it becomes more intimate, right?

01:09:25.08
aaronmannes
Yeah. Very true.

01:09:27.14
smacey
Yeah. So watermarks on all your posts on social. Why should people be doing this?

01:09:34.97
Mark Raycroft
Ah, okay. um I do it because my images are copyrighted and I license them. I make a living off it. I license them to all kinds of different companies and it's I have contracts and I want to make it clear that and the images aren't free to use because it's what I do for a living. I put a lot of effort and I'm happy to have conversations with people who are interested in licensing images for any application. But, you know, artist reference is one. For example, I work with many artists that paint my images or draw them various art forms. But I don't do it for free if they're making revenue. It's copyrighted because I spent a lot of money

01:10:22.14
Mark Raycroft
On that trip you guys didn't know what it costs on your last trip And then I also hiked for a week and camped in the elements and had you know, this expensive camera equipment so Um, I don't it's not a selfish thing.

01:10:32.45
aaronmannes
Mm

01:10:36.44
Mark Raycroft
It's it's just it helps me continue to do what I love to do and the copyright on it Makes it clear that that's the case. It gives me recourse if something happens and It is an interesting subject with social media because I know things would likely do better without it.

01:10:52.25
aaronmannes
hmm.

01:10:56.80
Mark Raycroft
I try to make it subtle and I have colleagues that do copyright watermark them and you know, some are super subtle, some are not.

01:11:06.83
Mark Raycroft
And then there are those that don't too. But you know, it's like Facebook, right? Instagram and Facebook are both meta but they behave differently.

01:11:11.45
smacey
Mm hmm.

01:11:16.37
Mark Raycroft
from what I've been told. So stuff on Facebook's public domain and I had a long conversation years ago with my stock agent about these platforms and how to best manage them and Apparently, on on Facebook, anybody can use it. So a huge corporation can use the image on Facebook without paying for it, but they can't alter it. So by putting a watermark on it, then that would lose the appeal of using it without altering it, which would then break copyright law. So in other words, if they really wanted to use it, they would get in touch and license the image.

01:11:54.73
Mark Raycroft
but um Anyway, it's it depends on the objective of the person. If they just want to grow their social media and have lots of likes and and not have it tied into revenue, it's the same with photo contests. right i mean there's They vary considerably across the platforms you know as far as what ah happens with the images that are submitted. But watermarking it is a way to one way. And I know it's limited. It's social media. It's like anything else. you know that it's Things are going to happen. And they do. But it's a way to make it clear that you know these are professional images. And that's that's why I do it.

01:12:33.38
smacey
Yeah, it makes sense. So you wouldn't say for everyone to go and do that.

01:12:37.65
Mark Raycroft
It depends on how they, what they feel about their work.

01:12:40.12
smacey
Right.

01:12:41.05
Mark Raycroft
If it, if your work's important to you and you don't want it to be used elsewhere and you want people to pause before they use it for whatever they're going to do, then I would, well, um I mean, I do it, so I would recommend it.

01:12:53.11
aaronmannes
Hmm.

01:12:53.62
Mark Raycroft
Right.

01:12:53.63
smacey
Hmm.

01:12:54.81
Mark Raycroft
Um, but I don't have every answer because social media is such a rapidly evolving, um, platform that It's uh, you know their choices people make if if they don't For whatever reason but for me, I mean I I have been in this business for a long time. There have been issues with copyright, but that's inevitable and it's more common now, but It's still the business is still ah viable. And we watch for that. And it's all part of doing business. It's been there before, um before social media. But I think as for my role, for what I do, it's important. And I don't see changing that. But I don't for a second judge people, whether they do or not, so no consequence to me, this is just my work. So I do.

01:13:44.57
smacey
Right. How many books have you written authored?

01:13:49.87
Mark Raycroft
Uh, the entire book I've done four books.

01:13:53.01
smacey
For I just bought.

01:13:53.65
Mark Raycroft
Yeah. Yeah. And to do, I love, I love a body of work, right?

01:13:59.44
smacey
Yeah, for everyone listening and watching I just bought Mark's moose book.

01:14:00.97
Mark Raycroft
Yeah.

01:14:04.52
Mark Raycroft
were

01:14:06.28
aaronmannes
ah Very cool.

01:14:06.34
smacey
I saw it in, saw it in the visitor's center of swift occurrence, Saskatchewan, if any, there's any Saskatchewanian Saskatchewanites listening represent. I saw, um saw the, saw the nice picture of the moose, saw your name. I was like, I'm going to pick this up. I haven't had a chance to read it front to back yet. But I think I sent you a picture, didn't I, Mark?

01:14:26.74
Mark Raycroft
ah on

01:14:28.29
smacey
I was like, hey, I bought your book.

01:14:28.90
Mark Raycroft
Oh, right.

01:14:29.73
smacey
Excited to read it because I love moose. But my question for you is so maybe this is more like an advanced intermediate question, but it doesn't need to be. This kind of information is always useful. What would you tell someone who's looking to create a photography book like the one you made or like the ones you've made rather?

01:14:49.47
Mark Raycroft
Sure.

01:14:49.56
smacey
um

01:14:49.91
Mark Raycroft
yeah Happy to talk about it.

01:14:50.41
smacey
Just if they have nowhere where to, I know that this could be an entire episode on its own and we're well over the hour mark, but just where to begin if somebody has the portfolio of work, let's say already.

01:14:57.25
Mark Raycroft
we aren't right um well thank you for grabbing it do read it because it's well you okay that's that's flattering but okay why not

01:15:08.12
smacey
I'm gonna, I'm going to read it 10 to 15 times. I promise you.

01:15:14.63
smacey
well i Well, don't get too flattered. I read every book 10 to 15 times, but I'm saying yours is worth it. I'm sure it is.

01:15:21.64
Mark Raycroft
Well, each chapter starts with a cool anecdotal story. I like that i want to compliment the biology biology and interesting behavior of the species with aspects that make people feel like they're there.

01:15:31.00
smacey
Right.

01:15:35.29
Mark Raycroft
So each each chapter starts with that and there's anecdotal stories throughout. so It's done really well. The Moose book's on its second printing and well into its second printing. And it's available everywhere. um And so it's a parable book. I did two books on Whitetail Deer. They're both out of print now. they They're sold out and gone. I have have the second one here. I have 50 some copies left here only.

01:15:59.48
smacey
but Well, we'll put a link to your is your website, the best for people to.

01:16:02.35
Mark Raycroft
Yeah.

01:16:03.37
smacey
to

01:16:03.83
Mark Raycroft
um It depends. If they're in the United States, the website is the best. If they're in Canada,

01:16:08.23
smacey
Okay. Most of our listeners are. So we'll put a, we'll put a link to, okay.

01:16:11.13
Mark Raycroft
if in Canada.

01:16:13.64
smacey
Well, we'll figure out the links after, but I'm letting people know that the links to those books will be in the episode description, regardless of where you're watching listening.

01:16:14.04
Mark Raycroft
Because. and'

01:16:20.43
Mark Raycroft
Yeah. Yeah. Can I hold it up and I see it there.

01:16:23.88
aaronmannes
Oh, beautiful.

01:16:24.39
smacey
yeah Oh, hell yeah. There it is. See, I forgot mine.

01:16:26.77
Mark Raycroft
I thought

01:16:27.11
smacey
I look like a lame, lame ass. I promise you I bought it.

01:16:30.50
aaronmannes
Moose.

01:16:33.06
smacey
Look at how thick it is too.

01:16:33.17
Mark Raycroft
on your. We messaged. We messaged.

01:16:35.03
smacey
I know. I know. Look at how thick it is too. It's awesome.

01:16:38.38
aaronmannes
Now, how do you think of that title?

01:16:38.53
Mark Raycroft
Yeah.

01:16:41.38
Mark Raycroft
asma Well, you know, we ah it took three weeks in the field and and feeling totally like reflective on life.

01:16:44.18
smacey
o

01:16:49.96
Mark Raycroft
And then it just, you know, it's part of marketing.

01:16:50.60
aaronmannes
Creative.

01:16:53.92
Mark Raycroft
It's got to strike, right? If you think about a bookstore, you hope that when they market a book, it's faced.

01:16:55.68
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:17:01.21
Mark Raycroft
How often do you go in a bookstore and and this is what you get to see, right?

01:17:02.98
aaronmannes
Oh yeah.

01:17:05.05
Mark Raycroft
On the shelf. It's like, nobody sees it.

01:17:06.04
smacey
Yeah.

01:17:07.32
Mark Raycroft
Nobody's going to buy it. So it's,

01:17:08.57
smacey
I saw the picture of the moose. I saw it.

01:17:10.92
Mark Raycroft
Right.

01:17:11.19
smacey
It was like that. And I was like, I like moose.

01:17:12.84
Mark Raycroft
Visitor to brookwood yeah visitzage centers visitor centers are good.

01:17:14.82
smacey
I like moose.

01:17:16.32
Mark Raycroft
Natural history bookstores, you know, they do feature every book well compared to the ah big ones.

01:17:18.35
smacey
Yeah.

01:17:21.96
Mark Raycroft
But it's Crown Giant of the Northern Wilderness. It's a subtitle.

01:17:24.66
smacey
Hmm.

01:17:25.89
Mark Raycroft
So we try to add the flavor, but we have to make it striking image-wise and title-wise right out of the gate.

01:17:29.76
aaronmannes
ah Yeah.

01:17:33.04
smacey
Hmm.

01:17:33.28
Mark Raycroft
Any product that's important.

01:17:33.35
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:17:35.78
Mark Raycroft
and so yeah these two were done with the same publisher and this came out more recently both have won awards and this is caribou and this covers like moose it covers the species from coast to coast to coast um but as far as doing that kind of thing it's so fulfilling and I

01:17:44.21
smacey
Nice.

01:17:44.42
aaronmannes
Very cool.

01:17:55.41
Mark Raycroft
I love mentally curating and collecting the images to build a story long enough to represent the species well through the seasons, through their lifespan, predator prey, what they do, all those elements. Um, it's fun to map it out and then to compliment the writing. I, it's almost like the pictures of the images are there first and then I'm build it around and make sure that that's there. Um, caribou is a, again, we can, this could, this could run. So I'll try to keep it short.

01:18:24.87
smacey
Can we do a part two, maybe entirely on publishing a photography book with you at some point?

01:18:31.34
Mark Raycroft
Sure.

01:18:32.26
smacey
I'm not saying to cut it off now, but ah I would love, I personally would love to know more about that because that's something I want to do in the future.

01:18:32.42
Mark Raycroft
it's yeah but yeah

01:18:39.90
Mark Raycroft
There's two options that you really out in the gate have to consider and and it's self-publishing or going with a publisher. And self-publishing in the digital era is becoming more and more easy, straightforward. And its laying out a book is easy to do one by ourselves, or it's relatively inexpensive to hire somebody to lay it out and create a PDF if if somebody's not comfortable with doing that. um All the books I've done are through publishers because traditionally that is the best revenue generating because they distribute the book. They pay for the book. The flip side is I get an advance and then a royalty.

01:19:28.69
Mark Raycroft
Which is a fraction of, I mean, the publisher makes most of the money because they've taken the risk. They've paid the money, you know, the tens of thousands to make the book because of the quantity they've ordered and, and then the cost of distribution. Like how do you get it to Swift Current Saskatchewan? Right?

01:19:46.79
smacey
Right.

01:19:47.43
Mark Raycroft
Do I, do I self publish it, fill my car and drive across Canada to all the visitor centers or

01:19:47.65
aaronmannes
yeah

01:19:52.65
smacey
You take a sea plane and you just chuck them out the window over every city in Canada.

01:19:57.35
Mark Raycroft
okay all right well are they are they prepaid so i mean there are there are outlets so people do self-publish frequently now and they just they do a circuit or they you know they'll have books with them and when they hit places like that they'll go in and say hey would you like to buy these honestly though um well and that

01:19:58.89
aaronmannes
Next time. Next time. Yeah.

01:20:03.23
smacey
No, I hear you.

01:20:21.26
Mark Raycroft
That's fine. But when you sell it through a retailer like like the Nature Center, and they take 50%, which makes sense. they They have their overhead. They have their staff. That's that's how industry works. So that's cut um part of the profit, which is still fine. um The best way is just doing talks, right? So when you do a talk to a ah photo club and have books there and if you sell 25 books, it's all the profit for the author who did it.

01:20:52.77
Mark Raycroft
But there's the expense that they have to outlay with digital print runs are, are more flexible now.

01:20:55.44
aaronmannes
right

01:20:59.76
Mark Raycroft
But obviously the more somebody prints, the cheaper it is per book and the more profit there is per book at the price point.

01:21:06.31
smacey
Right.

01:21:06.59
Mark Raycroft
So self-publishing, you can pick your own price point. Whereas a publisher, I mean, these books are crazy, amazing prices. Moose is 20 bucks and the caribou is 25.

01:21:15.18
smacey
I was shocked. I was like, that's it.

01:21:16.77
Mark Raycroft
Right? Like a big magazine, 20, you know, 1999.

01:21:19.20
aaronmannes
Right. Yeah.

01:21:21.10
Mark Raycroft
It's like, it's,

01:21:21.89
smacey
ah Yeah. to So for your own feedback, when I looked at it, I was like, this is really well done.

01:21:22.39
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, totally.

01:21:28.09
smacey
It's not cheap and it's really affordable. Why would I not buy this?

01:21:33.48
Mark Raycroft
And that's the philosophy of the publisher. When we were talking about Price Point, it the owner of the publishing company wanted it to be a no-brainer. ah and therefore sell more.

01:21:45.10
smacey
Right.

01:21:45.32
Mark Raycroft
And you would have a smaller profit margin per product, per book, and but overall sell thousands more books.

01:21:52.92
smacey
So working on volume.

01:21:53.14
Mark Raycroft
so working on volume. So there's, you know, so business is fun, right? Photography is amazing. But this is the business side of it too, right? So what's, what's the price point where it's going to sell? How much profit can you make per book and still sell and how you can sell maybe a third as many books if you sell if it's more expensive and make the same amount of money. What's, what, which way are you going to go?

01:22:18.83
smacey
Right.

01:22:19.29
Mark Raycroft
But then the books cost, you know, X number of dollars per book to print. You print 500 books. Do you print 2,500 books? Do you print 4,000 books?

01:22:26.54
smacey
Hmm. And what's the value of having more books for less profit in the hands of people that maybe book a trip that maybe buy a print, et cetera.

01:22:27.75
Mark Raycroft
Oh,

01:22:36.80
Mark Raycroft
oh yeah. Okay. That's yeah. Smart observation. The books themselves are one of the best branding tools a person can have.

01:22:45.08
smacey
Right. It's a giant, beautiful business card.

01:22:47.97
Mark Raycroft
Yes, yes, for sure.

01:22:49.53
smacey
Right.

01:22:49.91
Mark Raycroft
It it gives ah gives ah um authentic street cred two to that person because they've proven their experience.

01:22:55.45
smacey
Yeah.

01:23:00.79
Mark Raycroft
And the quality is apparent, whether it's good or bad, it's there.

01:23:00.97
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

01:23:05.12
Mark Raycroft
It's slated on the pages, right? so it is But to me, so yeah the books have actually been more advantageous in opening all kinds of doors.

01:23:06.76
smacey
Right.

01:23:16.17
Mark Raycroft
in the publishing world, in the guiding, they're wonderful that way because they do share that. But far more important to me is is the body of work. I just, you know, I've loved this career and I continue to. I am as passionate about it as when I was in my early twenties, when I started. and And it's so meaningful to have this, you know, the Moose book was, you know, 15, 20 years in the making of images. And it shares stories with each of my kids and friends.

01:23:48.29
smacey
yeah

01:23:49.29
Mark Raycroft
And so it's at the end of a career, you know, you have architects who might say, you know, they've designed this amazing building and, and it's, it's a highlight and they can look at it and appreciate what they've done for effort. And books are like that, you know, magazines and any calendars, any print media are are fantastic. but they don't stay on the table. They don't stay in front of us as long.

01:24:14.12
smacey
Yeah. What you said is important though, right?

01:24:15.38
Mark Raycroft
That's right.

01:24:16.34
smacey
You said this is 15, 20 years of work condensed into how many pages, a hundred and something.

01:24:21.24
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:24:24.74
Mark Raycroft
160.

01:24:26.19
smacey
Right.

01:24:26.58
Mark Raycroft
Yeah. 160 pages. Yeah.

01:24:29.47
smacey
Like good things take time is my point.

01:24:33.12
Mark Raycroft
Well, that's, that's what makes it more gratifying too.

01:24:35.32
smacey
Right. and You're talking about long-term gratification in a world where it's more and more short-term.

01:24:36.06
Mark Raycroft
No.

01:24:41.58
Mark Raycroft
Sure. Yeah.

01:24:42.73
smacey
Yeah.

01:24:42.89
Mark Raycroft
And, and that's, I think it's, it's healthy to hold onto that and work on projects that take time.

01:24:46.34
smacey
Yeah.

01:24:48.16
Mark Raycroft
And, and again, that's not to dissuade people. A book doesn't need 15 years. I had that by the time I was asked to do the book, I had the content and I.

01:24:53.54
smacey
Right.

01:24:58.23
Mark Raycroft
You know, I spent a year flushing it out to finish it. The Caribou book, I was given three months.

01:25:01.51
smacey
Right.

01:25:03.65
Mark Raycroft
So we actually, we licensed about 20 images out of the 150, 100, 160 to get it to be as good as it could be to represent everything about Caribou. We had planned on another year of being in the field, but again, business. There were no new books at the time on caribou and the publisher said, let's do it.

01:25:22.35
smacey
Right. Right. Things can change. Right.

01:25:24.61
Mark Raycroft
You want to do it now? And I'm like, well, it's money now, as opposed to a year from now. So yeah, let's do it now. So we like, right? Yeah. Two caribou books come out in the next year while we're working on it. And then, and then the publisher says, Oh, that's not good. We're going to let's just shelve it for two more years until it gets quiet again.

01:25:41.20
smacey
Yeah. You're like, I should have said yes.

01:25:42.29
Mark Raycroft
Right. So like yeah you do um, but yeah, anyway, it's it's uh, but it doesn't there are ways You know, there are places to go but you still even in places where the bears are for in a case in point, you know, so accessible ah You can't tell the whole story to create a book of that species life in a handful of trips because of seasonality, I mean

01:25:44.78
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:26:09.52
smacey
Right.

01:26:12.44
Mark Raycroft
There were images I've seen this summer of ah Friends of ours with wolves leading and trying to lure cubs away from a sow right in Alaska For predation didn't happen, but to have the images to tell that story just make Right makes the book that much richer because as you turn the page and you see that it's like whoa, what's happening?

01:26:24.66
smacey
That's gnarly.

01:26:34.76
Mark Raycroft
Why is there a wolf? Why is this bear cub running toward it and the mum's there? And then you read and it's like, whoa, this is intense. That's the potential to be. This is the world outside the walls we live in.

01:26:45.79
aaronmannes
Hmm.

01:26:46.07
Mark Raycroft
Right. Which is what draws us all out there. So it those rare behavioral images, you know, really flush it out.

01:26:49.70
smacey
Yeah.

01:26:56.78
Mark Raycroft
But that's the fun.

01:26:56.85
smacey
Yeah.

01:26:58.28
Mark Raycroft
That's the reward and of the ah multiple times out doing it.

01:27:02.82
smacey
Yeah.

01:27:03.05
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:27:03.51
Mark Raycroft
select

01:27:03.71
smacey
No kidding.

01:27:04.09
Mark Raycroft
It's like that, right? You think of, we love, people love collecting anything in life, you know, right?

01:27:06.95
aaronmannes
Hmm.

01:27:09.94
smacey
Yeah.

01:27:10.96
Mark Raycroft
We're collecting a body of work on a species to create a book. And that is fulfilling a similar way to collecting anything, whatever it might be.

01:27:22.62
smacey
Yeah, for sure. Aaron, you want to ask her a golden question?

01:27:28.34
aaronmannes
Yeah. Uh, back when you started photography 72 years ago, you said he used the hood thing.

01:27:33.93
Mark Raycroft
Stop.

01:27:34.76
smacey
What a dick.

01:27:35.99
Mark Raycroft
Guys.

01:27:39.21
Mark Raycroft
Oh, wait.

01:27:39.96
aaronmannes
and I just Mark, you said he used the hood thing and he pressed the bulb.

01:27:40.67
Mark Raycroft
Oh, this camera is now shut off too, Aaron. Oh, it's not working anymore, either. Oh, come on, guys.

01:27:49.42
aaronmannes
You knew all about it.

01:27:50.78
Mark Raycroft
No, I've seen pictures.

01:27:51.66
aaronmannes
s That stuff's old.

01:27:52.38
Mark Raycroft
I've seen pictures, my friend. No.

01:27:55.88
smacey
Aaron's humor is amazing.

01:27:56.09
aaronmannes
I'm just kidding.

01:27:57.34
Mark Raycroft
Cameras I started with look just like the cameras I use now as far as the exterior goes.

01:28:03.32
smacey
Yeah.

01:28:03.51
aaronmannes
yeah the prototype ah prototypes prototypes uh no mark uh starting 27 uh no starting off though and you know we ask this question a lot i think and and maybe you have to transpose time a little bit for the new age and

01:28:03.55
Mark Raycroft
They just have different nuts and bolts.

01:28:06.46
smacey
Aaron's humor is incredible. I love it.

01:28:09.36
Mark Raycroft
perfect If you flip those numbers, you'd be almost accurate.

01:28:10.47
smacey
and

01:28:15.69
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, almost. third

01:28:28.95
aaronmannes
ah there's social media, there's this incredible equipment, and I think we've touched upon it a little bit, but advice you would give your younger self in terms of starting out this career ah or this passion doesn't even have to be a career. People out there aren't always trying to make money with this. They just love the passion and that is perfectly good.

01:28:44.59
Mark Raycroft
Right.

01:28:48.60
aaronmannes
Arguably, maybe even better. If it's giving you something completely pure, ah you don't have to worry about the business part of it. But ah what advice would you give your younger self if you could if you could start over? You know, one to two things and and that'll be our wrap up.

01:29:05.95
Mark Raycroft
Yeah, that's a great question. I've had friends, usually when I go backcountry in Alaska, I take one other person with me. I don't do a solo trip for a variety of reasons. And there was a gentleman from Seattle, went with me for a couple of years. Great friend, great sense of humor. But he was, he didn't at that time didn't need money. He did it for the ah love of it, the joy of it. And he, you know, he pointed that out, you know, and early on, people would say they could see the hunger, hunger in your eyes trying to get it to make it work right. um Whereas he could just take it in and not have the pressure. So

01:29:42.25
Mark Raycroft
There is an element a significant element to that So listeners that you know, it's doesn't the wind is not necessarily making a living at it. The wind is Being there and enjoying it and if I was to parlay that into into recommendation for my younger self it would be that it you know throughout I've I'm you know In my mind's eye, I'm still totally capable of doing everything I've done in my career physically, but I also recognize life is finite. and I've had you know people very close to me that are younger than me pass away for various things and and tragedies. and um This planet is amazing. and The natural history, the wildlife, the diversity, I can't wrap one's mind around it. There's so much

01:30:32.49
Mark Raycroft
incredible species out there and and how they work together, how this planet evolves and works together. It would be to, um the advice would be to try to more frequently take a step back and just see that and enjoy that. The photography, you know, is important and as a career, it's important to have the images. If they're not there, there's no career. So there's that drive. And some of the best experiences have happened because of the drive, because of the push, the extra hiking the extra five miles that day and finding something magical that wouldn't have happened.

01:31:09.58
Mark Raycroft
15 miles or whatever it might be but it it yeah it's the life is short guys and we live in a in an amazing time to have these opportunities to travel to places to see this stuff to have the freedom and and the resources

01:31:11.07
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

01:31:15.61
aaronmannes
Mm hmm.

01:31:29.32
Mark Raycroft
to be able to go to these destinations like you're doing and just always to keep that in mind and enjoy it and not don't sweat the small stuff, right? There's too much joy and love and less planet and thrills to be had without sweating the small stuff and then take it in.

01:31:49.38
aaronmannes
Amen.

01:31:50.08
smacey
Incredible, Mark. Thanks so much.

01:31:51.51
aaronmannes
yeah me Thank you.

01:31:51.72
smacey
I learned a ton today. Super appreciative of your time. Links to Mark's website, books, and the podcast, Beyond the Wild. If you like Jason's episode, this is his co-host, Mark. So go check that show out. That'll be in the episode description as well. And just super grateful for your time today, man. Really appreciate it.

01:32:13.08
Mark Raycroft
fun yeah i love your energy love your show and it's been fun and i honestly i one of the things on my trips that i with people that i get to know well enough i love the pranks man i i love the poking in the back and forth i you know argument yeah well

01:32:27.37
smacey
Yeah, you're a good sport. Well, you guys said that I didn't know what books and magazines were, and I just had to make you feel real bad when I reminded you that I bought your book.

01:32:33.58
Mark Raycroft
ah so

01:32:37.64
aaronmannes
Yeah. I think I was the only one that wasn't, uh, wasn't attacked in this episode.

01:32:39.28
smacey
so

01:32:42.67
smacey
There's too much to go after, that's why.

01:32:43.00
aaronmannes
So I'm gonna get out of here.

01:32:45.00
Mark Raycroft
Well, you know, as a first time guest, I just, I have to, I have to, you know, play by the rules.

01:32:45.04
smacey
There's too much to go after.

01:32:45.13
aaronmannes
Yeah. Let's get out of here.

01:32:46.77
smacey
so That's right, be polite.

01:32:50.95
Mark Raycroft
So, but but I appreciate, you know, all the humor and and and what you guys are doing and and sharing and sharing on the podcast is, is, is fun.

01:32:51.52
aaronmannes
Yeah. That's right.

01:32:57.13
aaronmannes
Yeah. Yeah.

01:33:00.54
Mark Raycroft
So thanks for having me on. I appreciate that.

01:33:02.43
aaronmannes
Thank you.

01:33:02.66
Mark Raycroft
I appreciate your time.

01:33:03.13
aaronmannes
Hopefully we shoot sometime. That'd be nice.

01:33:04.55
Mark Raycroft
That would be great. Let's keep in touch.

01:33:06.23
aaronmannes
Yeah.

01:33:06.97
Mark Raycroft
I would welcome that opportunity.

01:33:07.22
aaronmannes
Yeah, for sure.

01:33:08.53
Mark Raycroft
It'd be fun. I think, I think we could have a lot of fun in the field.

01:33:09.65
aaronmannes
Yeah. Yeah, and absolutely.

01:33:13.03
smacey
Absolutely.

01:33:13.05
Mark Raycroft
Sure.

01:33:13.99
smacey
All right, till next time, gents.

01:33:15.95
aaronmannes
Take care.