Raising Wildlings
Raising Wildlings
What's in a Name? Forest School, Nature Play or Bush Kindy? Insights from Amanda England
Can a name shape the way we connect with nature through education? On this episode of Raising Wildlings, we are joined by the insightful (and soon-to-be Dr) Amanda England, as we unpack the nuances behind terms such "Forest School," "Nature Play," and "Bush Kinder," and discuss how these names reflect the unique environments and philosophies they represent.
Amanda shares her rich experiences from Europe, offering a global perspective on how these programs are practiced differently. We also delve into the importance of place-responsiveness, especially within the diverse landscapes of Australia, and debate the necessity of a unified term for nature-based education.
We also explore the essential elements of a shared Nature Play philosophy and the strides made towards unifying various nature play bodies in Australia, and touch on the challenges of maintaining a genuine commitment to child-directed play, beyond just marketing allure.
We encourage our listeners to join us in this lively debate over terminology and contribute your thoughts and innovative ideas. Get ready to rethink how we name and perceive Nature Play!
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Ushkindi Forest School. What is in a name? In today's episode, I'm joined again by soon-to-be Dr Amanda England. As we talk all about how we name our outdoor programs, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we're recording today the Kabi, kabi and Gubbi Gubbi people. I would like to recognise the continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place we call home. I also recognise Aboriginal people as the original custodians of this land and acknowledge that they have never ceded sovereignty. I'd like to pay my respects to all Gubbi Gubbi elders, ancestors and emerging elders and any First Nations people listening today.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about parenting, alternative education, stepping into the wilderness, however that looks, with your family. Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly inspire us to answer your parenting and education questions. We'll also be sharing stories from some incredible families that took the leap and are taking the road less travelled. We're your hosts, vicki and Nikki from Wildlings Forest School. Pop in your headphones, settle in and join us on this next adventure. Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast. My name is Vicki Oliver, I'm going to be your host again today and I am joined by soon to be Dr Amanda England. Welcome back to the podcast, amanda. Hey, everyone thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So whilst Amanda's doing her PhD, we've had heaps of really interesting conversations, and one of the conversations that we have had is all about the terminology surrounding forest school. Now, as you may know, we run a forest school called Wildlings Forest School and we very specifically chose to attach ourselves to the word forest school. In our very previous episode. We talked all about the philosophy behind it, but here in Australia there are other words that have been used to describe programs that run under the forest schooling philosophy, and it's been pretty interesting, amanda, some of the conversations, because you spent some time in Europe last year and you had some pretty interesting conversations around that.
Speaker 1:So let's start by like what? What words have you used? Have you heard being used just to describe some form of nature immersion program? Nature immersion, nature play, immersive nature play programs. What else? Obviously, in Australia we use bush, kindy, beach, kindy, nature school, just plain nature.
Speaker 1:There are so many terms that are being used Around the world. They're just using it. Well, around the the world. In europe they're just using the words nature play um, that's a big one for them over there. They're not using, aside from in england. Forest school is not well used throughout the rest of europe, um, but yeah, it's definitely around the world. It's definitely known by a multitude of things. In Denmark it's actually known as Yudda school, but that is really only seen in the primary school, so for the younger years they call it many different things like nature born haven, um, nature school. Nature school is basically the biggest one over there. They call it nature school and I think that's where um it's.
Speaker 1:I find it very fascinating that there's such an intense conversation I wouldn't even call it a conversation because some people get quite heated around what they're going to call these things and I know that even within Australia there has been um some backlash, even in the creation of like governing bodies to sort of be an. What is the umbrella term that we're using? Which is really interesting, because for us at Wildlings it's about the philosophy, like what is it that we're trying to achieve? What is it that we believe in? The name itself, um isn't as important, and I think one of the things that I've really loved about your work, and one of the the key things that you found in your when you've been looking through all the literature, is it being place responsive.
Speaker 1:What do you think about that? Well, I mean, forest school is not place responsive. Is it? Because, especially in Australia, it's not forests everywhere we've got deserts, we've got, um, you know what else. I can't even think what I'm thinking right now, but we've got creeks, um, we've got dry rainforests, we've got wet rainforests, we've got just normal bush. I mean, there are so many with. It's also bush, yeah, bush kinder in australia. Bush kinder is what the first australian forest school was known as, because they were out in the bush, but even then they weren't out in the bush. They were out in the bush, but even then they weren't out in the bush, they were out in the local parklands, yeah, so I would not say the name school is actually place responsive worldwide.
Speaker 1:But I guess the biggest I've had to change in my thesis I have now. I now no longer use the word forest school, unless I'm specifically talking about the British terminology. Yeah, I use nature play in my thesis now because I think that covers a wider range of things. I don't know if that'll stay the way forever, but that's just where I'm at in my reading and my learning and my understanding. I guess the biggest uh problem with the forest school philosophy currently is that the forest school, what it is, um, what it has become known as in other parts of the world, um is a is not what we're talking. What we just spoke about in terms of the forest school philosophy is not what is happening in places that specifically use the word forest school. Yeah, so there's an outcome based completely to the curriculum teacher driven. That's what the research is showing.
Speaker 1:So I guess that the biggest problem with using that name right now is that it's not actually the philosophy. Do I think we need to have a name and we all need to stick to one name? Yes, because how can we? I mean reggio, emilio montessori. They just roll off the tongue. You know those names, so we need one name. If it's going to be forest school, great, we need one name that literally encompasses it all so that it can be a philosophy that rolls off the tongue. My greatest dream is that every kindergarten in australia will say we use the forest school philosophy or we use the nature play philosophy, something like that, and people will just go oh, I know what that is, yeah, um, I still think there's not enough clarity around what forest school is, so hopefully people will start to understand from our last podcast.
Speaker 1:I think we're doing amazing things. I mean, you know, I could be quite biased because obviously I work in our business, but when I was over in, yeah, when I was over in Europe and I just saw what they were doing, I was over in Europe, yeah, when I was over in Europe and I just saw what they were doing, I was like this is what we're doing, like, and they're taking me out and I was doing professional development with them and they're like telling me all these things and I said to them but guys, we already do this. And they're like oh well, then why are you here? I don't actually know like you guys are doing what we're doing, and we started having all these professional conversations. We were learning from each other and we took some tips home from them and they took some tips from me, because what we are doing is nature play slash, forest school.
Speaker 1:But I guess what forest school has become in certain circles is probably more attributed to school, and that might that might actually be the biggest problem with that name, right, it's not place responsive and it's got the word school in it, right, and I think that's it, like every combination of names there's something wrong, like, not something, the wrong's not word, but there's something that's not true about it. So, for example, bush kinder in Australia or bush kindy doesn't take place in bushes, like some might, but not all of them will. Just like, forest schools don't always occur in a forest, and then so that's where we're seeing the evolution of beach school, river school, creek kindy, desert kindy, which is talking about the environment, that they're specifically taking their children out coming under some sort of umbrella term. Now, when it comes to nature play, I've always loved that, but some people really still are stuck in the triviality of play, so it doesn't seem, um, important enough, it doesn't seem like academic enough, it doesn't. There's, there's something around the word play that is not going to really encompass how important it is, even though we know play's important with, at some point we're having to bring some group in on the importance. So, like you're stuck up on the word school, you're stuck on the word bush, you're stuck on the word play, and so there is it's really difficult to find this all-encompassing terminology, you know that covers everything and that everyone agrees on, because it just feels like and people get really passionate about it too, like we're not.
Speaker 1:You know, we're not a forest school because we're not in a forest and our, I guess for us it's always been you know the philosophy. First, because we have debated about whether or not we change what we do, but ultimately it has always come back to the philosophy and that's what we believe in. And maybe we need to be talking about that a lot more, like you say, so that people understand it. Well, that's my aim. Look out of my research.
Speaker 1:I not only want to write a book about philosophy and pedagogy, which is just values and beliefs and then what you do, demonstrating those values and beliefs of what you do with kids, but also, I guess, to rewrite a conversation about what actually nature play slash, forest school philosophy is like what is it? Because I just don't think we have a deep, and I didn't, I sure as heck didn't. When I started Brisbane, I had no idea what you know. Like now, I have learned so much, and I didn't, I sure as heck didn't. When I started Brisbane, I had no idea what you know. Like now, I have learned so much, and I think we all have. Over the last five years, yeah, you and um Nikki have been reading so much, which I'd actually say was a better way of doing it than I did. But we've all been reading so much and learning about so much and just, yeah, really actually getting into what we believe this philosophy is, which is about getting children outdoors and, you know, like you said before, with the school and that then being linked to a curriculum thing.
Speaker 1:School Bushkindi over here is also kindergarten in Australia yeah, is different in every single state and in the ages. So kindergarten in, say, new south wales is their first year of primary school. So that's another thing wrong with the terms. Right, that school can mean different things in different countries. That's right. Well, it gives the word nurseries overseas as opposed to kindergartens or like daycare, and there's all of these terminal there I guess there isn't, and I, when you zoom out that's true too of all of the terminology we use that there sometimes isn't a consensus. If you say my kid's in kindergarten in Queensland, that means something completely different in another state.
Speaker 1:So it has been incredibly difficult for us to come together, I think that's. I guess my frustration too is just how long it has taken for people to come together so that we can network and talk about what we do under one umbrella, because there's, you know, and that's starting to happen. So we've started to see the emergence of the Australian Forest School Association, which we're part of. There have been other outdoor bodies like we've got Outdoors Queensland, but that's different because that's not looking at nature play, that's looking at outdoor recreation. We do have nature play bodies within each of the states, but nothing that brings us together as a country. So it's a very interesting space to be in and I think my hope is to remind people that ultimately we are all in it because we love it and we can see the benefits of it. So, no matter what you call it, we can all be learning from each other.
Speaker 1:As long as you're doing child directed play outside, that's right, and I guess that's the part of it too is dressing it up. I think I've got a little bit and I definitely think over the last seven years and working with some services and schools is noticing when people are in it for the right reasons and when people are trying to jump on board something that they can see as a point of difference in a marketing perspective for their service or their school, and it's not sustainable if you're going to jump into it. For that reason, you won't have a program that runs, because you need to have your staff on board. You need to be working with the outdoor space owners, whether that's council or private owners. Those relationships need to be maintained over time and if you don't have a core why and a core value around the program, it won't be sustainable, which is why it's so important to understand what your program is trying to achieve.
Speaker 1:Like why do you believe in it? So as much as we do? Yeah, if you don't believe in it, it will not continue. I think that's the other biggest problem with the term right is that it's become a marketing playoy. But I'd argue and I've read research that shows that Montessori and Reggio have all become marketing ploys. So, at the end of the day, I think you're exactly right. None of us are ever going to agree on this term. I mean gosh.
Speaker 1:I actually met another fellow PhD student at the conference that I was at in Portugal who had a problem with the word nature play, because he then felt that that was us taking power over nature. So this is along the lines of, you know, yeah, basically us asserting that we are dominant over nature, and I was like, oh, my goodness. So yeah, yeah and yeah, I think that there's look. Part of me thinks that it's it is important to think critically about some of the things that we're doing, but I also think that if it's something a little bit more trivial and it's stopping us from actually getting outside or I don't know, there is something in that that I would like for us to just be a little bit more accepting of different people and their journeys and having different ideas.
Speaker 1:But okay, we don't agree on the name, but we can talk about other things that we have that are the actual nuts and bolts of the program. Yeah, I guess, like there are people who haven't joined the Australian Forest School Association because they disagree with the name, and on our front page, I'm quite sure that it says we don't know if this is our full-time name, like we're not sure, but this is what we're working with right now, because forest school is understood in Australia and people do hear that name and go, oh yep, I know that's bush kidney basically. So, yeah, bush kidney. I mean, look, even the bush kidney term, I don't. You know, there are people who were quite high up in developing that term, who don't love that term. So yeah, and I guess we couldn't call it the bushy Association, because there are people that don't work with kindy aged children who also do nature immersion type programs for lots of different age groups.
Speaker 1:But the guts of the program is still the same, which is, I guess, why forest school still became, because I guess it encompasses an age range, maybe, I don't know. It's really interesting the different ways you debate it, but at the end of the day, I think, yeah, you choose the terminology that resonates the most with you, but hopefully, underneath that terminology, you have a very solid understanding of what it is you're trying to achieve, and that's why I think understanding what the philosophies are are really important. So, if you haven't already already jump back to the last episode that Amanda and I just had released, because we talk all about the nuts and bolts of the forest schooling philosophy what makes it so important and such an incredible way to be working with our young people. Amanda, thank you so much for joining me again.
Speaker 1:If you have any thoughts on the terminology around forest school, we'd love to hear it in the comments. You know healthy debate. Maybe someone else will come up and invent a totally new term that really stands out to all of us. I'm holding my breath, but anyway, we'll continue this conversation and, as always, we love doing this journey with you. So until next time, stay wild.