402 | Why Average Americans Are Losing When Saving For Retirement (And How To Win With Real Estate)

The stats around retirement in America are appalling.  Too many people are reaching retirement age with too little cash flow to allow them to retire comfortably.

But the members of our Not Your Average Investor are on a different path.  They are taking control of their retirement goals by looking beyond the conventional 401k.

That's why we're bringing two of them on the show to share their strategy for a comfortable retirement so YOU don't have to settle for the average!

On this week's show we'll  be joined by Kelly Berenbaum and Lee Bishop to talk about:

- why the stats looks so bad for the average American
- how to build a better plan for retirement
- what Kelly and Lee have built into their plan that is different than most
- and more!

Kelly Berenbaum is a flat fee fiduciary financial planner, founder of Blue Tree Financial, and real estate investor.  We like to call her "6F's" because she's our Favorite Flat Fee Fiduciary Financial planner Friend in our community!

Lee Bishop is a former network engineer, president of Goal 1 Funding, and real estate investor.  We call Lee the "MVP" of the community because he's been there since day 1 and has helped countless of our members understand real estate investing!

Don't miss a chance to hear from and talk to two of our community's most popular members.

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https://jwbrealestatecapital.com/nyai/

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https://jwbrealestatecapital.com/turnkey/ 

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Transcript

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Today, we're talking about a subject that we have been, speaking of a lot lately. It's this, these statistics that are kind of daunting around the American retirement, picture. we're talking to a couple of our, local legends here inside of our community about it. And, it's going to be a lot of fun. Welcome everybody to the weekly edition of the Not Your Average Investor show. I'm your host Pablo Gonzalez GC is now with us today, but we have a couple of esteemed guests, a couple of, a couple of legends from our community. Plus one. we call her the six F's because she is our favorite flat fee, fiduciary, fee based, financial advisor, friend, the founder of Blue Tree Financial, Kelly Barronbaum. Welcome to the show, Kelly. Thank you so much. And the man that everybody knows, we call him the MVP. He's been here since day one. He has helped countless of community members understand why this is or is not good for him. out of the kindness of his heart, MVP, Lee Bishop. Say hello, Lee. Hello, everybody. Great to be here. And the gran muchacho in the background, the great amigo, the man that we know as Bill Shields. Buenas tardes, Bill Shields. Buenas tardes, este amigo. I mean, Orlando. Buenas tardes, este Orlando. El guapo. Yeah, you know Lee? You down with MVP? Yeah, you know Lee? Let's go! All right, Bill Shields became famous and a little tradition that we know around here called a what everybody? No roll call. Leading off with a leadoff hitter today, John Henning at his usual batting location. We got Christopher Lee from Fernandina Beach. Billy Green saying good morning from the inimitably ubiquitous mountains of Colorado. We got a not your average guest saying, lol, Kelly, Bill and Lee look great. If you tune in from the phone, just clicking on that thing, then I don't know what your name is. So you just got to tell me what it is. You show up as not your average guest. We've got the mystery man in the house. With a legendary stick, uh, a compliment for you all. Laura Colby from Washington state is back. We've got the ring nester in the house. A good friend to everybody here. Drew Barnhill. We got the mama bear, Cody Adams checking in. We got the Maven from the mountains of Denver, Leslie Wilson. We got Pamela Myers with her wonderfully warm smile from the Seattle area. We got charity Graham is back. Welcome back charity. we've got, Oh, It must be the fairy godmother. Greetings from the Monterey, Monterey, California. Yeah, there you go, Jen. We got the man that everybody knows, Noah Randari. Greetings from California. We got our regulars, Gary and Rosalind Riley from Marietta, California, who we regard you. We got Mark Norman back in the house from SoCal. Good to see you, Mark. we got the patron Santorios from Northern Virginia, Michael Santorios. We got Roger Fonseca. Who is from the IE, but in Pecos, Texas, kind of like, Oh, Bill, Bill Shields, you know, Pecos, Texas. All right. We got, uh, we got my buddy Bob Wiesner in the house, saying, but I believe in German, Germany, Bob is in Germany today, Bob, I wonder if you're. If you're in the Euro cup, are you catching any of those matches? We've got a shaman in the house. Nadeem Shah from the West coast. Who else we got in here? I said, somebody saying Senor bill is hilarious. we got Leo for Reagan on Leo. Good to see you, buddy. We don't always get you anymore. Now that it's on Tuesdays, Jeff Blunt saying, Oh, law from Jacksonville. Oh, let, to you, Jeff, Pedro nasty and Sano from. Jersey in the house. We got Aaron O'Neill into the lights Good to see you. we got the first family Ken and Carolyn the patriarch and matriarch of the Malin family Uh, who else we got pop up in the house ever Shapiro pop up good to have you back we got the early bird Coming in a little late today at 1233 early bird, Dean Curry from Columbus, Ohio, checking in who else we got in here. All right. We got a full, full roll call. Chuck Huddling from upstate New York. I think that's a new name. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the family. Hope you, hope you get real comfortable around here, Chuck. What else we got? We got Ride Along Raj in the house, my Ride Along partner. Okay. I think that's a good, pretty good roll call. It's, it's always, the roll call is tough when you have the zoom delay. So I just take it. I know you all know all the names when it's Greg here and we can just back to back, you know, like it goes different, but, uh, yeah. It's great to see the three of you. Not gonna lie. what's going on? Why are you all, why are you all together with a, with a Mexican hat bill back there? Well, I'll let them take the Mexican hat, but they happen to show up in my town. Kelly, come on down. Okay. All right. So what's with the Mexican hat? Well, you know, they call me the El Amigo or something like that, so I like to hear Pablo speak Spanish. It's a long story, but this guy has a timeshare and invited us to come stay and the rest is history. I love it. I love it. Real, um, this is like a dream come true, right? When we started this thing and I'm like, community that we're launching, people are like getting together when they travel. What are you guys laughing about? This is the moment you've dreamed of. Like we have, we have people traveling, meeting each other from, from like the show, from the community. going somewhere together, third person coming in, one person dressing up as a, as a bandolero back there, based on a nickname that we gave him. it's really, this is, if I could, if I could show you my dreams, I would show you this and I would show you a dream that I had last night where, I was there with you guys. The show went terribly. Greg logged in, was watching live, told me to shut it down and then fired me afterwards. But we don't have to talk about that. We'll try not to get you fired, Pablo. We'll do our best. We're, we're here to talk about a different kind of nightmare anxious scenario, and it's, these, these statistics right, that we have, that we've been seeing. We kind of, we kind of started really digging into this. As the year started for JWB and we're, and we're thinking, you know, what's the most impact that we can create. We had this marketing meeting and we realized that all this stuff is happening. So when we had the, the, the summit, We, we kind of rolled out this message of the state of American retirement and these daunting statistics that show that Americans are getting to retirement age without nearly enough wealth to actually be able to retire, replace their income. The percentages are staggering. Lee, as you were preparing for the show, as the MVP that you are, you sent us a whole bunch of like notes and homework. So what did you find as you were, as you were like looking behind the scene for this man? You know, it, it's surprising. I, I was using artificial intelligence to gather some information and what it came back with was 47% of American households lack any retirement savings. That was shocking to me, right? I was saying, oh my God. And then. What percentage of Americans are not saving? Twelve percent have no savings at all. That's not just for retirement. That's just not saving. And then, you know, I'm saying, okay. How many people, like I was asking the questions, like how many people think that they have enough savings or, or, or are prepared or something like that? And it said feeling behind, like, you know, that was one of the things that I was like trying to press. 56 percent of workers. Feel like they're behind in retirement savings. Like I haven't even started or didn't put an up down and I'm going, and these numbers are looking bad, you know, one in four workers haven't contributed to their retirement in the last year. Like because of interest or whatever, and interest rates rising and stuff. And it's like, an empty account. There's lack of planning. You know, there's all these reasons that people give for not having, a retirement account. And like, one of the things was, And this surprised me. Student debt, poor spending habits, lack of income, don't know where to start. I mean, that's just shocking to me that people would have excuses. They're legitimate excuses. But on this show, and they, you know, they don't know, yeah, we, and we saw, we were talking about Kiplinger earlier, they put out some stats on like the average 401k for a baby boomer is 241, 200. And, you know, if you only take 4 percent of the year, you know, you're not going to, that's less than 10, 000 a year that you're going to make on that and any sort of income and I think the Gen Xers were 158, 005. Now. Those are averages. You could have 241ks. You might have other investments like we're going to talk about today. But, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of shocking. It's kind of shocking what we're seeing. I've read something where it said in February, the average number to social security check was was less than it was 1, 700 a month that they were paying a retiree. I mean, that's less than 22, 000 a year. You can live on it, right? Man, as, as we are having this conversation and the word averages keeps coming up and the chat starts lighting up with like, that's why you got to not be average. It, it, it adds a whole nother kind of like layer to the theme of the show in this idea that whether it is The knowledge base the discipline, the, kind of, you know, the access of the average American when it comes to retirement is not the path that one wants to follow right now. Like as, as I'm hearing you Lee talking about, baby boomers and thinking to me, I think of baby boomers, right? Like my dad's born in 45. So I, he would, he would technically be one of the oldest baby boomers, right? He's, he's about to turn 80. So I'm seeing baby boomers are somewhere in like 67 to like late seventies right now. And if they're, you know, they're there, right? Like they're at the moment where we're used to thinking you can hang up your, hang up your shoes. And retire and live off of your passive income. I think it was, Drew in the chat said the Gen Xers are kind of the least prepared generation. And then as, as you get a little further away, like myself, I'm, I consider myself like an oldest millennial. I was born in 80. and I honestly don't feel like I started getting super prepared for this stuff until about Four years ago, thanks to the not travesty investor community. And I feel like I have plenty of time to kind of catch up to it. Right. But like the state of it right now, it seems like we're suffering from Kelly, something that you had identified in our show that I had never, that I had never realized was this idea that. When we, when we switched over from pensions and social security being the thing that's going to take you home in the twilight of your, of your years to this 401k kind of system. Something seemed to kind of like disconnect and now all of a sudden we weren't taking the incremental steps. That we needed on our own, even though we were given these different options. Is that, I mean, am I representing that correctly? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of went from pensions to retirement plans, like 401ks are pretty, pretty commonly thought of. And the responsibility went from your company saving for you to give you a specific monthly income for the rest of your life to maybe helping you save. But it was the responsibility fell to you to save and make sure that you had enough, Investments funds that would produce income that would replace your income over time. And I think I think what's happened is I just see sort of a lack of education and access. So, in my practice, people are coming to me. They're they're, you know, they're working hard. They're making good money. They're they'd be there. Inherited money. They're business owners. You know, they're, they're making good salaries for the first time and a lot of them are younger. so I, I see a lot of, I don't see really sort of like the dire situations. I see, you know, eagerness to do the right thing and plan for the future and save, but they don't necessarily know how, you know, I think. The information has been sort of obscured, you know, you sign up for a 401k, you maybe automatically get it increased every year. You save the company puts contributes. Yeah, maybe you save 10 percent and maybe the company saves 3 to 5, depending on what you're but but what does that mean? And what are you invested in? And what's it going to look like at the end? You know, when you go to retire, What's that bucket of money going to be? And how are you going to translate that into a paycheck to replace? So I think that's been the challenge. And what I see are people coming to me and they've got some really good ideas around. you know, my brother in law told me to invest in this stock. Pablo, we've had this conversation. I like these three Kelly. Do I have to sell them? Let's just, let's just get the big picture here. Or, you know, um, somebody told me to invest in this particular apartment building or, you know, this particular piece of real estate. And so as a planner, I'm always like, okay, let's, let's look at the big picture and let's really look at, you know, what your cashflow is, what you're going to need down the road, and then figure out ways. That we can replace that. And when it comes to, when it comes to saving for retirement and replacing your income, I think the 401ks are great places to start, you know, workplace investors, because you don't have, you're doing something and you don't have a lot of money to start. Right. But then it's invisible money because it's coming out of your paycheck before you get it and have to decide what to do. Yeah, there are tax benefits. Yeah. And it's automatic. But then you really need to start thinking about what that is and be sort of deliberate about that. And then I've got other people coming to me and they're like, Oh, I've got, I want to do this particular real estate thing. Okay. Do we have enough cash reserves? You know? So, so I think it's, I think it's education one. I think, you know, there are a number of people. So I'm a Gen Xer, solid Gen Xer and younger who know that they need to say they they're independent minded and they don't even mind. That responsibility is theirs, but they don't know how and what to invest in. So I think that's where I start to see, you know, people need to really understand diversification. What's a stock market investment versus what's a real estate investment? What are my risks and access? How much cash do I need? You know, how much can I survive in a downturn? Right, exactly. And then what's going to be stable? So yeah, that's a little. A little bit of a, yeah, a little bit of a rabbit hole there, Pablo. No, I like it. You know, you know what I find really interesting is that we're both kind of self described as three different generations. And as I, as I think of how all this hits, right, well, first of all, a great point by, a couple of folks here in the chat, right? Like, Paige and Santorio's and Reggie Fonse talking about how. agreeing with you all, right? Like this financial education piece, the idea that if we could teach this stuff in high school, then people would enter the workforce as, you know, you're not too early to start learning. Yeah. As I, as I think of it across the generations, I'm thinking about when I first started working and the working 500 company, right? Like 50 percent 401k match up to like 50, up to, up to the 10 percent contribution that would give me 50 percent 401k match should have totally was totally maxing that stuff out. Didn't really know what I was doing in it, right? Like there wasn't a lot of education on compounding and even more importantly, Education on what happens if you delay this, right? Like, I feel like you get told a lot of this, like, Oh yeah, we just do this dollar cost average, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think some education around the idea of, well, if you don't do this now and then you start doing it at this point, then this is what you need to figure out. Like, are you going to make these huge bonuses? How are you going to create like this stuff to like put in, I think would have been really helpful. But I think for me, though, the. The hardest thing. Well, before, before we go there, Lee, as the elder statesman of this, of this, group of three here, when you entered the workforce, was it a 401k thing? Can you tell me about kind of like your intro into workforce and investing? And before you got to the point where you started using your 401k money to invest in, in real estate, kind of, how did you think about it? Yeah, I mean, in all of my jobs, ADP, Provident Bank, and then Medical Mutual were my three jobs over the last 50 years, and each one of those had a retirement account 401k that they would participate in, and it was always a percentage of what I did. And they said, Oh, you can put a max of 6%. And then it became, Oh, you can put a max of 7%. And then the longer you work there, the more you can put in and everything. But it's like my wife said, right? It's you're taught to save, save, save, you know, and then in retirement, you can, you know, spend, spend, spend. Well, the, the highlighted that is you're starting to chip away from that nest egg that you built. And then, you know, everybody's living longer than what they're supposed to. And inflation and inflation. And I mean, all of that, like the value of the dollar is not worth the same. So when you pull the trigger and say, I'm retiring, that's it. You're not contributing to it anymore. And then it just starts eroding. And that's what got me, you know, like. You know, I went to fortune builders and fortune builders talk about how does how do you protect your investments? And it was the passive income club. And, you know, once we went, Jane and I went to, listen to somebody say, Hey, an older guy went and he was worried about his 250, 000 wasn't going to take him for the rest of his life. He could invest it in a house that was going to generate positive cashflow. And then how can he leverage that to get another house and get another house and get to the cashflow that he needs? to get to a point where he can retire and not worry about his next day dwindling. And, and we heard that Jane was like, that's genius. That's not what we were taught growing up. Think about how much collective knowledge it took to come together for him to be at that point where he was with that group of people who could do it. Teach him that and for that group of people who learn through their shared experiences, how to sort of boil it down and give it, and that's one solution. Right. Right. So I think, I think the, the ecosystem is just really, really complicated, you know, in terms of what to invest, like what to do, you know, we've got a bunch of people with, I'll give everybody the benefit of the doubt working, a lot of people are working hard and trying to save, but what do they do with it? You know, I mean, my dad is. 85 and he was, you know, proud to tell me, Oh, I just took all my money out of the stock market and put it in bonds. And I'm going, well, what, what are you doing? Well, consistent income, but probably not going to be inflation. If you're going to live, you know, another 30 years, he's got one foot in the banana, a lot of, a lot of good points. Lee. I think the, you know, that, that idea of, You were doing every the points. Yes. You thought you were doing it right, but that was the training at the time, the wisdom of the day. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it took us to get involved with people who had the knowledge and the, and the real estate, you know, insight. And we paid, right. So it was like one of those things where you say. You either learn from doing or you learn by paying and we wanted to do the shortcut and learn by paying So we paid and it was beneficial. Yeah to that point right like these real estate education programs I remember I remember when I first started thinking about that maybe ten years ago It was like a 25, 000 investment for me or at least that's what was being offered for me, right? So like that's a that's a pretty pricey, entry point of like understanding that stuff. But it sounded like you were kind of like keyed into the fallacy of saving this much to then live off of this much as it, as it goes down for me, the, probably the most harmful thing that I think happened to me in my wealth building journey is the fact that as a old millennial, I went into the workforce and was committed to my 401k just blindly, right? Like I just knew I had to do it. And then two, and I was in construction and then 2008 happened. And my, I remember, I remember there was a, there was a sports show analyst called Colin cowherd. He's like, everybody's 401k just turned into a 201k. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what just happened to me. So once I, once I kind of, you know, at that point I took my first entrepreneurial. Like leap did okay ended up joining a company that again had a 401k plan But I had lost I had lost all this faith in it, right? Like so I wasn't maxing it out I wasn't doing those things and I feel like I lost some some valuable time there As far as building while I was younger, because of a bad experience with the volatility of the market. And if you stayed invested, it would have come roaring back. It would have come roaring back. You know, to do that. Yeah. A hundred percent. I took the same path. I took what your dad did. I was like, no, I'm going to put all this stuff in bonds because I don't want to lose this stuff again. Whereas it would have come completely roaring back. I just didn't have that education either. so. I don't know. Kelly, do you see that as you are, when you see clients coming on, you said you, you deal with a lot of like younger ones. I wonder if you see kind of like different. I guess wounds is the way that I would call it that, that, that gives people these fallacies that they're then not making the right actions. Are you seeing, do you see patterns in that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the younger clients don't have the wounds that we do slipping through like 2008, you know, or, or seeing some of my parents and grandparents. Um, certain perceptions in mind, you know, I've got this money now and you know, my colleagues say I should be investing in crypto. I've got this money now. And should I, you know, in addition to my 401k, should I be investing in real estate? Maybe, you know, so, so I'm always looking at it from a systemic approach. Like if you're depending on the dollars that you have to invest in really your understanding of how the market works and various investments. And that's what I'm here to help educate you on. You know, globally diversified portfolios are great places to start in, in various types of investment accounts. But then, you know, if you have a specific, so, so then when we get into like larger dollar values, you know, larger portfolios take five to 10 percent of it, and you can carve it off into what we would call alternative investments. And that, you know, real estate is one form of that. And there are lots of flavors of real estate, you know, too. So, you know, taking that path, then we look at, all right, If you have, the aptitude for that and the risk tolerance for that, because it's a fairly high cost of entry, you know, a JWB house is 70, 70, 80 grand is a down payment now. Right? So that again, if that's a small percentage of your portfolio, it may make a whole lot of sense. You know, it's a lot easier to say, okay, now we need cash reserves and what can you expect in return? How does that translate to your overall portfolio? And maybe it's a very straightforward sort of conversation. But if you've only got, you know, 500, 000, now that's a big chunk. Now we need to sort of think about it in terms of. When are you going to need the money? You know, we're always talking about time horizons. You know, are we talking about 10? Can you afford to keep this in real estate for 10 years or more? A full market cycle, often long term investments. You want them in the stock market for 10 years or more as well. But then we are really talking about conservative things for short term, like. Cash I yield savings accounts, bond funds, things like that. If you need that cash in the next 3 to 5 years. So I taking kind of a big step back. I think everybody comes in with a perception of what they should be investing in and they have their current situation. And I'm always trying to say, okay, let's look at the whole picture. Let's look what you need in the short term. Let's look at what you need in the long term. Then we start to talk about how we layer on the investments that make sense for you. And I had, I've had, I had a client recently, who. You know, they was told by family members that she should be investing in real estate. Don't disagree with that. I invest in real estate, you know, so let's talk about it. And, but, you know, we determined like just in terms of where she was and. In terms of down payment and ability to sort of pay attention to it, she wasn't really ready to do that. You know, she, you know, she was happy with the investments that she had, and understood them. And so we sort of stayed on that path. So I think everybody's a little bit different. So that's why I keep coming back to that, you know, start with the global diversification and then then start to make targeted alternative investments. Think about the access level and the risk always with any type of investment. and then the education, like how comfortable, you know, are you with that type of investment? Because I think everybody, you know, you can engage professionals who can teach you about the investment, but you really need to know what you're investing in and why, like what you hope to get from it so that you can be engaged with those experts and follow along, you know, manager. But I mean, everybody has their. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things. You broadening. Yeah, I know. Broadening your understanding and then coming back with a path, you know? I mean, our guys, when our investment guys were telling us, Oh, you're in your 89th percentile or 99th percentile of all the people who have saved, right, for your money. And Jane says, what does that really articulate to? What does that mean? And they're like, well, you can do your two weeks vacation every year, right? You were like, well, we're going to be off 365 days, right? So that doesn't quite jive with what we want as a lifestyle, right? So that, that was a whole new mindset too. It was like, Okay, you guys are, you know, work, work, work, save, save, save, spend, spend, spend, but you can only spend like you're doing now. Yeah. You can't spend like, you know, a rock star like they say. Yeah. You know. Party like a rock star, you just can't spend like that. Well, I do that. Lee, Lee, you bring up, you know what I, you know what I'm hearing in your point is the fact that like, I had similar before I hired Kelly as my financial advisor. I had similar conversations with my financial advisor guys, right? Like the veering towards, you know, this, this way of doing it. That's like the average way of doing it. There's a lot of gravity towards it. And you don't hear a lot of folks really listening to you. And understanding that you, you know, you see beyond this veneer and you want to build a different style of, Oh man, I don't even know how to describe the whole, like, I, the best way I can describe it is instead of just like a growth portfolio and then a cash portfolio doing like a cash growth portfolio is kind of how I see real estate. Right. So I wonder Lee, what was your, what were your conversations? Cause I tell me a little bit about how you went from You figured out that you wanted to do that or, you know, a real estate education program, opened your eyes to it. How hard did you go at, okay, now I want, you know, take all this stuff and put it in real estate. Did you stick to that 10 percent rule? What was that? What was the advice flying around you during that time when you had this big investment that like definitely veered towards real estate and telling you to do this, and then you also had, your, your previous kind of like infrastructure around it. How did you think about it? Okay. So 100 percent of mine was in stock. And do you mean like stock, stock, stock and bonds? Like, yeah, not stock. Just stops. And he kept asking me how aggressive do you want to be? And I said, well, let's be very aggressive. So mine built up to, say, a million dollars. I said, okay, I want to take half of that out. And by five houses in 2019, I was able to pay 160, 000 for the first house in, and then you, yeah, and in JWB. And then I said, okay. I want to leverage that one that I purchased in that same solo 401k into Getting a non recourse loan for the other four and they said okay, you need 50 down and I said well I'm not going to tap into that five hundred thousand dollars that I didn't use for Putting in the investment, I want to keep it under that and still have reserves. Mm-Hmm. So they said, okay, we'll let you do four houses at 40%. So I had to, I was able to pay 62,500 for each house, and they put down 99,500 for, or whatever the number was nice because it was 155,000 houses. So I bought four houses. And leverage the fact that I had one that was paid for to get them to give it to me at 40%. Yeah. So you had taken that retirement that you had built up through working and you said, I'm going to keep it in this, this, I don't know, boundary of retirement. And then within that, I'm going to buy houses and so that I keep the tax deferred status. You didn't pull it out and pay the taxes on it and the penalty. You kept it in there and were able to use these techniques to buy houses within your retirement account. I had to put it into an escrow account. And then, you know, so it's, it's stayed in a 401k more or less, so I didn't pay taxes on that. I didn't get penalized on it. And I was able to spend that money for, you know, you know, would it, what do you call it? Positive? No. smart debt. Smart debt. You know? So you were able to keep it at 50 percent of that. Hi, you were able to go within that boundary of 50 percent of that, of that retirement pie that you have. Yes, yes, yes. And still had reserves. I still was able to have reserves and then James was not, you had the down payments, the cash house and the reserves. Yes. Interesting. So I think that's an important point. Like your wife, Jane has her own 401k or retirement plan, which is significant sized as well. And that stayed in diversified market investments. And then Lee's portfolio, he took what half of that you just said. In the stocks anyway. So I was like, okay, let me see where this is going to go and see how it works out. Yeah. And that's turned out to be wonderful. That's wise. Yeah. Like, think about that. Like, you, you had the education, you had the starting point, you said, okay, here's what we're going to carve out. Right. To start. And then it, it worked well. You saw the results, you kept going and you were able to take advantage of low interest rates and those, those types of techniques that you used. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my half of my portfolio surpassed what I was able to get in the stock market. Thank you. In that same amount of time, right? So like I was able to do and I was aggressive. Yeah. And my stocks, I said, let's not change that. Right. So he was like, that's cool. You know, because of the home price appreciation, because of the, yeah, the prices you were able, well, that I just said home price appreciation, but the interest rates that you were able to get in. And then you sort of were able to pay down. I did refinance, right. So that I had, I went from 80 a month. Cash flow to$250 a month cash flow. Nice. And the one house was paid down to, so I only had like a$15,000 loan on that second house. Yeah. So one is paid down, 150,000. One is I only owe 15. Nice. And the others are, you know, I, I got in a little later. I wish I knew I hadn't come up with the education curve on real estate. Had a couple of bad experiences, was busy with working and kids and that sort of thing, and really hadn't come up that learning curve, and also didn't have, access to like a JWB or community where they would do so much for me. Like I was, you know, living in St. Pete at the time, and we didn't, I didn't know property managers who would take care of things. So there was still a lot for me to take on and coordinate. It's like the project manager or my husband, if we were going to do it. So, So now she has access to property, I'd be going, Oh, really? I have more than you, but I don't, but so, so my story is more, from personal real estate. So we bought a house. in 2002 in St. Petersburg. There was a double lot. We lived in it. 2006 came along. We had planned to move, but we missed the market by three months. And then 2008 happened. And I was like, this is, wow, this was a little scary. and I started to think more about, real estate as an investment. 2016 rolled around, the market got really hot again. Our neighbors, sold their house. For I two or three times what it was worth. And so we ended up, selling the house parceling the lot, building a new house on that lot. We basically sold that property twice. and it translated to a pretty significant part of our net worth. And then, I took, you know, a couple of career path changes and we moved from St. Pete over to Winter Park, bought a new house, and then translated that into two properties with JWB. So now, you know, the, the same, The house that we had in St. Pete, and it's worth a ton of money now, but we've translated that into three properties, two of which other people are paying for, or residents are paying for, you know, while we have just as nice a house. That's awesome. The St. Pete house by your primary residence and two, and two investment properties. Correct. Yeah, that's cool. That's a journey. Yes, that is a journey. We got a couple questions in the q& a. But before we get there, before we get too far away from it, Kelly, you said something to Lee of like, that's one way of doing it. what are the other ways of doing it kind of like you're you're Just, if you can give a couple of different like methods of Oh yeah, I think I was talking about like buying within retirement portfolios, right? So, for a lot of us, if we've been working, that's where most of our money is going to be for a down payment. So, to take, before you're 59 and a half, to take money out of those, you're paying not only ordinary income taxes, but a 10 percent penalty tax. Is it 10 or 20? It's 10. Oh, okay. And then, and then, And on top of your regular income for that year, which could put you in another tax bracket. So typically, and that's the other way that 401ks and those types of retirement plans lock you in. You can't really take the money out at the lower tax bracket. You're locked in till your retirement age. So what Lee did was, he, he, he, To be able to take that investment that he had, keep it within that container, of tax deferral, to have to pay taxes when he takes that money out. Ordinary income, now that you're old enough. Unless I'm over 70 something. Yeah, and then you have to take it out. We're going to, we're going to talk about that later. Anyway, so that was, so that was one way to do it. you could, and I know Pablo in your situation. Different, different interest rate environment, you know, maybe hadn't invested as much in the 401. You just took it straight out, pay the taxes on it. And went right for the lever. And it's funny, you mentioned the whole thing, right? It was also kind of like year two of building my business. I didn't have a lot of income, right? So like the whole knocking me into another stratosphere of income level also played to my advantage as well. Yeah. Yes. And I mean, that's, Not unlike someone doing a Roth conversion, you know, translating if they've got a low income year. So, so I think, so that's another way to do it. Right. the other is the way that I did it with, you know, the, the funds were already in real estate, you know, already post tax. No, because it was a primary residence. I didn't have to pay taxes on it. Oh, I didn't make any, like it was a significant amount, but as a married couple with the exemption, I didn't have to pay any, capital gains taxes on that property, either of those properties. So we just, we just invested directly. And similarly, you know, you might have other people who maybe they sell a business, you know, and you've got a pretty significant cash inflow from that. Now you've got cash. She couldn't. Buy something directly and then you get the depreciation, you might even be able to offset some of the taxes you have against taxes you paid on, you know, whatever you sold. So, so that's, that's another way, literally a myriad of options. it really kind of depends on, the tools and the capabilities, you know, what, what you have to work with and the tools and capabilities that you have and the trust that you have with the people that's helping you. Well, yeah, but I would, but I would argue like, you know, let's understand what, what, what we've got, like, you know, what you, you as a individual or your family has, in terms of your financial situation, your assets, and then what are the options available to you? You know, and then you find the experts that can help you with the best path. Right. Yeah. It is. It is curious. something we've referenced a couple of times. Well, it was, it was you Kelly talking about not knowing that in St. Pete, you could be investing in other markets or whatnot. I was just at, just put on an event for like a private lending company in Chicago. So a bunch of real estate investors, and it is curious. Not everybody, and we overcorrect for this inside of our community. Right. But like, not everybody understands that the, that the turnkey model exists. Right. Fewer understand that not all turnkey providers are, you know, built equal. And very, yeah, like JWB vertical integration that we talk about, but very few people understand that. You can buy a already rented cash flowing house as like day one from a reputable company that has been doing this thing for 17 years. And I think even, even just that lever of, financial education, cause Kelly, you talk about it, you just kind of mentioned there's, there's a couple of scenarios in life where you get a cash windfall, right? Like you might sell a business. You might get an inheritance, you might crush it in mortgages and get like a big bonus, you know, or, or, or something like that. And folks are kind of like thinking of, well, you know, they think of the real estate pie, but they're not very many people understand that there is a very, very passive way of doing this with like a very high floor. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when might you do it? I mean, we just talked about depreciation offsetting taxes, you know, true, true, true, true. Every, every tool has a purpose. Yeah. I'm sorry. Every, every investment, every tool has its purpose. You know, yeah, totally gonna figure out where it fits in your portfolio. okay. So we have a question from our attendee, our famous. Yes. I love this girl. Kelly Kelly and Lee are not a couple. So we've got a question from our guest from France. Anonymous attendee asking curious about MVPs escrow. Is it possible to talk more about it? Lee, you said that you had to do something with escrow when you had to, take the 401k to invest. When I took, if, if I were to take the money and put it into my personal checking account, I would have been taxed. Ding. So what I had to do was open up an escrow account so that there was a paper trail of where that money was going to so that there wasn't loss as far as the IRS was concerned. So I put it in Horizon Trust. Verizon Trust. And from there I could open up a bank that I could control, called Titan Bank, and I migrated the money to there. And that is owned by my Solar 401k. LLC, and I have signature authority over it. And Jane does too, actually. But yeah, if something were to happen to me, it would, she would have access to it because of that setup. But that would be, is that essentially the whole, like setting up a solo 401k or a self directed IRA? Is that that process where you just described? Yes. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't matter which vehicle you use at the end of the day, as long as it's a 401k. I didn't have to do that, but I wanted to pretty out of protection. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but escrow and like using the trust company that you talked about, those are all like ways of keeping things within the boundary, within the, within the happy boundary of the retirement account and arm's length. So it doesn't look like it came to you and it's not taxed right. Yeah, I crossing the tax threshold as I like to say, yeah, I didn't trip that wire. Yeah, that's part and parcel of keeping it within the retirement boundary. Got it. And I think for the purposes of an anonymous question, it's essentially there's companies out there that help you with this, right? Like it's whether it is a, I think the keywords are self directed 401k self directed IRA. Is there, is there anything else that is in that umbrella of things to like search for if you're looking for people to help you to do that? Allie or Lee? Yeah, I think I think the trust providers do a good job. call your call your JVB portfolio manager and get the reference list. Yeah, I mean, or call me, you know, I have some as well. But it's pretty easy to like, Google, you know, 401k providers. And I was working with the company that set up my solo 401k. And they, you know, said, Okay, This is your strategy. This is what you want to do. So if you have a company you trust that does that, you know, that you're working with anyway, not to like make the terms vague, but there's like the third party administrator who manages the 401k itself, and that's just the record keeping for the 401k. And then you have, custodians, which could be, which could be trust companies and the custodian sort of holds the asset quote unquote, meaning like it's titled in the name of the 401k. And they're the ones like sort of. I want to say managing that for you, but they're really just holding it in title for you. So in, in every investment, market investments, you have that as well. Really, you have the third party administrator for your 401k. If you're invested in the stock market, you'd have a custodian like Schwab or Fidelity or Vanguard. So like a horizon trust or trust company would be like, you know, the Vanguard, you just invest your, your real estate through there. Great explanation. What she said made it easier. Thanks, Lee. What I'm here for. I'm here to translate, Lee. That's what I do. I love it. Pedro Santorios, Michael Santorios, who, by the way, in the chat said when he started investing in real estate, I did the property management on four rental properties while working and it was like having two full time jobs. Turnkey is a way to scale your rental portfolio. I totally agree. I couldn't have been imagined doing that. but he's got a question. Lee, if you knew what you knew today, 40 years ago, what would you have done differently? I had about 80 houses. Honest to God, I, if I had known, I tell on all of my 30 year old nieces, you need to start investing in houses, right? You need to start getting yours, your retirement portfolio. So let's go further down that though. How would you have done that? Because if you were already investing, like your, the source of your investing was coming from your 401k. And then you were able to turn that in. If you were to be doing it 40 years ago, before you had built that. You know, like, how would, how would you have, how would you have figured that out? Well, I mean, back back then, nobody talked about C three X pay down and, you know, the education part of it was all part and parcel of that. So it would have been a longer learning curve, but I eventually would have got there and I would have been doing the okay. My house is paid for. Let's leverage that house to buy another house. I know there's a lot of guys in the chat that are doing that already. Right? So I'm saying I would have had, you know, leaps and bounds every couple of years. I would have said, okay, time to buy another house or time to refinance and get the cash out and put that toward another house, you know, because I wasn't at a point where I'm saying, okay, now I'm 59. I got to worry about, you know, I'm 62. You know, that was for my cousin, you know, lying about my age. But, you know, being 62 and close to retirement, I can't play like that game. But how about you, Kelly? Same question for you. Yeah, I mean, the only thing that I was aware of early on was just, sort of that burr method, you know, buying something that's run down and renovated and rented. so the only thing I needed to do was like, buy and hold. I wasn't really aware, or I thought it was too expensive, wouldn't cash flow to buy something that was already ready to go, you know, and just thinking about, like. Working and having kids and sort of managing, you know, managing all of those things like it like it didn't it didn't occur to me to really spend time on that education. I didn't know what was available. That's all. That was it looked like. And when I first started looking at my husband, I first started looking at rental properties. Some of the stuff we saw, they were just they were awful. Like, you know, would anybody want to live in these places? Like, who are we renting to? You know, do we really want to get involved in this? Like I said, the only thing I knew was either fix and flip or, you know, really sort of struggle with being property managers ourselves and learning that discipline. I mean, Pablo, one of my friends is, Rachel Richards and she wrote a couple of books for. She retired at 27. So she straightened up her finances and wrote a book about it and then started purchasing doors, right? And when she got 40 doors, her income was greater than her expenses. She retired at 27. And so she's teaching people how to do that now. You know, she writes a book toward women because There's not a lot of books written for women to, I went into financial services so that I would understand and be able to control my own money. Right. and that's awesome. And congratulations. Well, thanks. It worked out pretty well, but it was, it was one path. You know, it was saving. It was 401k. It was, you know, state, you know, take advantage of the proper sharing, you know, increase your salary, those types of things. And I really didn't have, again, with like work and family and, you know, other aspirations, I just didn't have the bandwidth to really explore these things or the appetite to take the risk without really fully understanding things. And that, that information wasn't available to us. So it was, you know, it was kind of what you see, you know, right. So it's nice to have. So I think, you know, something like this community is really great because we can all, we've talked about, well, you and I like hit it off. You're like, here's my number. Call me. So I think when I first was on the show a couple of years ago and I called Lee, it was three hours later. I'm like, I, wait a minute. I'm the financial professional here. I learned so, I mean, I just learned so much. And then at the summit in February, We met so many people who were coming at this from different perspectives, like different life stories, different, backgrounds and education, you know, different asset levels, you know, and everybody had started a little bit differently and come in from a different angle. And I think that's one of the coolest things about investing communities like this is, you know, you learn so much from each other and you can, you can sort of, you can absolutely engage professionals. And I'm honored Certainly a proponent of that, but also getting ideas from other people, broadening your perspective and knowing what questions to ask and, you know, where to, where to go, you know, and learn more so that you, so that you can have access to those things. Why are you laughing at me like? I'm not. I'm laughing at you darling. I'm laughing at you. He's, he's remembering that first conversation. There's a lot of laughing, you know, I'm surprised he remembers'cause I feel like he's done that so many times. I, I know it might even special Lee, come on today. But listen, you, you, you tell a story, you tell a likely story, right? Like a, the fact that like this community has been that vehicle, it's been that vehicle for me. Right. Like just as, as podcast hosts has been the vehicle for me. It was nine months of the chat telling me that I should read Rich Dad Poor Dad. the runs in the morning with Greg to just try to figure out like what, for me to understand what people are saying inside the community and like, and get that behind the scenes stuff. It's a tough concept. Yeah. What's up. It's a tough concept. It's not for the faint of heart either. I mean, there's so many reasons why people don't want to invest. It's easier to just say, it's too hard. And, and, you know, I've taken a little bit different approach with, my firm and financial practice because I'm, I'm agnostic to what investment you use, you know? So it's been really fun for me, to, to meet people who are coming in with these different approaches and then being able to use like my tax knowledge, you know, my diversification knowledge, you know, my, my cashflow knowledge and help. Thanks fill in the color and the gap, right? And, and help make sure we're moving forward in a good direction. So it's, I think all of us, regardless of our profession or our background, you know, it's been, it's super beneficial to learn from each other. Oh yeah. Shared knowledge is the best knowledge. Yeah. You know, and like, Lee's been a great resource for everybody. So have you Kelly, right? Like I, I like I've, I remember when you first showed up to the, To the show and then to the meet up and stuff like that. And it was just like a brush of fresh air of like, finally, like a financial advisor that gets this stuff and just on a personal level, really a move for you to just be a part of these types of communities as the one financial advisor that understands this stuff. to the point of the question though, I've actually been thinking about this a lot myself recently. for a couple of different reasons. One is. I, I was just at this event, last week. I met this like 26 year old guy who is, he's like a 26 year old real estate millionaire, right? Like lives at home, has been like deferring gratification and taking discipline action towards doing this thing, but it's not worth a million bucks in real estate at 26 years old. And I started like getting this stuff and he was telling me about how like his dad was bringing him to real estate things when he was like 18 and you know, he's super into it. So I've just been thinking about like my nephews and. Kind of how they're reaching college age and, and what I would have done differently. My, my big, my big thing was I remember graduating 2004. I like, I remember this conversation like yesterday, this is like 2005 at this point, I'm like in like a middle management job living in California. I don't have friends, so I'm playing a ton of poker and I'm in Vegas and, and I'm talking to this guy that's in Utah. That's just like, Hey. I'm already, I'm already financially well off because I figured out this, this real estate thing. Like you can quit your job right now and learn this thing. And in, in a couple of years you're, you're going to, you won't need that job. And I'm like, yeah, but what about the bubble and all this stuff? And what I realized now is that he was doing the Burr method in Utah at that moment. And while I'm not sure if, if I were to do it over again, I'd quit my job at 22 or 23 or 24. till I get into this, I would have followed that trail a little bit more. And the one thing that I can say for sure that I have noticed in just the four years, four and a half years of this community and my understanding of category design and how I'm like a nerd on all that stuff and context changes is. I definitely wish that I would have understood that these like historical moments that happen, whether it's, and it generally is like around interest rates or something that's happening, right? Like when these like unique moments happen to really, really pay attention and to lean a little more towards like diverting assets that way. cause I remember the first time that Richie said this idea of like, Hey, the deal is the debt. on the show in 2020, late, late 2020, early 2021 of like going hard at that. I remember in 2001 after 9 11 how one of my friends in my fraternity realized that he could just buy a house in Orlando and own it even though he had nothing going on. His mom just put him in it, right? And like these moments that, that we identify as like unique. Moments in time where there's these inflection points that create future generational wealth. and how we talk about this idea that right now with interest rates high, getting in now, because once they drop, there's going to be a price shoot up. And then you're going to be able to like leverage that equity for different things. And, and when you refinance later, right? Like, that's the thing that I would have done different. I would have continued with my 401k staying as aggressive and letting that come back. But more than anything, recognizing these, like Moments in time that historical inflection points happen, whether it's around interest rates or prices or like these external forces where regulations change and all of a sudden you can do things. That's what informed me on buying my duplex and buying my resident, you know, like my primary residence, right? Like taking advantage of these things. That's what I would have done different. It's just like, yeah. I pulled a little harder at that when I was younger. I think I would have. Yeah. But when you were younger, you were in a, in Miami, right? That would have been tougher to buy. Vegas then, right? Yeah, man, but listen, in Miami, when, when 9 11 happened and I was in college, I could have picked up an apartment, like, I did not buy a one bedroom, overlooking the bay apartment in South Beach for, like, a hundred grand that today is worth a million bucks, right? That's, that's where, and you don't, and you don't know, like, you know, I mean, that could have been the condo that collapsed, you know, if it wasn't taken care of. Like, so I think, I, I think it's really important. And I think that's the point about education and learning as much as you can, right? Engaging the community, engaging professionals, understanding your personal financial situation, because if you, you know, if you quit a job, you don't have health insurance and you get hurt. Now you've got 100, 000 health, you know, maybe you're a medical, like, so I think that everyone needs to really, like, really understand and, and learn as much as they possibly can, and then make calculated bets based on what you're comfortable with. And I know you're. Comfortable with a little, you're both a lot more comfortable with risk than I may invite some people to do, you know, because they can't, they can't afford to take certain risks, but understanding like that, that picture and knowing what your bet is and what your worst case scenario is, and that you can, you're comfortable with that, whatever it is. That's good advice. You know, I think, I think that's really important and that's fair. That's fair. All right. Nadim Shah. Shaman has a question. If a person in their seventies, if a person is in their seventies and they take out their 401k, does one still have to pay tax? They're in their 70s and they take out their 401k. If it's a pre tax 401k and not a Roth 401k, then yes, they will have to pay ordinary income taxes. And at a certain age, I believe it's like 72 now, don't quote me, but you'll have to take required minimum distribution. So you can only keep it in there so long before the government requires you to take distributions and pay taxes. And it's a percentage. Yeah, it's a percentage. Great answer. All right. Y'all ready to finish the show? We have, what GC, he may not have been here because he's on a vacation with his family, but he's here in spirits in the fact that he put together your, financial portfolios. So y'all, y'all, y'all ready to take a look? Let's do it. Who wants to go first? Do me first, because he's been in it longer. Do ours first. Okay, so disclaimer, right? Investors should do your own diligence. Your mileage may vary, but this has been Kelly's journey. Kelly, you bought, what it looks like, this is small. It looks like you bought here two properties in 2023. both under conventional loans, total initial investment, I guess you brought over was about 154, 000, right? So you leverage some of these houses to buy this stuff. And in just, that was what year was that last year, 2023. All right. So that's last year. So in essentially one year, we look at the, we look at the profit centers here, net rental income, 709 principal pay down already, almost 4, 000 bucks tax savings of four 48. And of course, The home price appreciation, the star of the show, always on this, on this show of 15, 122 in just one year. Kelly, what do you, what do you think about when you see it? Does that make sense to you? I'm happy. I'm relieved. Relieved is a good word. I like that it's positive and we're going in the right direction. I think we actually got a little more tax savings because we had all of the closing expenses that we were able to include this year too. Oh, that's awesome. And yeah, I think And the nicest thing is after the financial part was done. I haven't had to touch it. You know, we've got, we've got a great team in place. Kyrie calls me and says, you know, gives me updates and lets me know what's going on. Kyrie Maddie and Caitlin are my team. and they're all, they're all fabulous and keep us informed. You know, things like, I don't know, someone had like, we got an HOA notice for one of our properties for like mowing the grass. And when I get that at my personal residence, it's like stress. Oh, we got to take care of this. You know, we called, we called Kyrie and they said, Oh yeah, we'll just call the residence. And they took care of it. And it was done. I'm like, That's just, that's so nice. Like it literally didn't have to do anything. The team took care of everything. So, so yes, it's nice to see those numbers and it's also just nice to know how easy it's been. Not too bad. Not too bad. And then of course the Pac Man, right? We like to show this education of why not overvaluing just net rental income. While your net rental income has been right here. You look at the whole piece of the pie and at the end of the day, even in just one year. Home price appreciation makes up, Yeah, not even, Yeah. Why is your principal pay down so big? I told you not to ask any questions. I'm saying this for the first time. No, I actually, I actually don't know. I think, I mean, that's, that is a pie chart on the whole number and it's been less than a year. So the numbers themselves are not that huge. So like, relatively speaking, I think that makes sense, but I don't have the numbers on that chart. So I can't answer that. You're getting a little low on it. I mean, All right, it's time to ask. It's time to ask you questions, pal. So, we're gonna, again, disclaimer, your violence may vary, but this is Lee's. Lee, you've been, you've been at this game a little bit longer here, right? Not too much longer, but you got in in 2019. Historically, good time to get in, right? Like everybody now knows you're a genius. Awesome. Time to get in. Like you described, you bought in your retirement account, you bought one house and all cash, and then you bought four non with non recourse loans leveraged within the retirement account. This has been your performance so far. You've had a total rate of return of 14. 59%. No tax savings. Cause you bought inside of your retirement account, right? So you're limited to that, but your net rental income has been almost 42, 000. Right up there is 40, 000 of principal pay down. And then the, the big daddy right here is the 395, 000 worth of home price appreciation for a total profit. since 2019 of, close to half a million bucks, man. Five years. Yeah. That's pretty awesome, isn't it? Not too bad, Lee. Lee, you had printed this stuff out yourself before this because you're the MVP. What did you think when you saw this? I did. actually, my portfolio manager Fritz called me and said, Hey, here's the new portal. So have you seen the new portal? I said, what are you talking about? And so I was able to print it out because he just gone through it with me. So I was not surprised about this, but I'm always thrilled. And he said that they're going to get to a point where that portal was going to let me, because I'm doing, I did the cash out refinance and I was doing the C3X. There's no way for that to be reflected in here. Did you explain what C3X is? I did not. I don't think maybe quickly just describe what that is. so it's c three x pay down is all the cash collected from all the rental income properties goes toward a house that's not paid for. It could be the highest interest rate or it could be one that's close to being paid for. And you pay down one house, and then once you get two paid for, it goes quicker. By the time you have four houses paid for, it only takes six months of math to pay off the last house. It's an, it's an accelerator tool, and your team has access to instructions they can share. But essentially, like after you've gotten three houses, you can use that tactic to pay it down faster so that you're getting much faster. Yeah, it's very accelerated. But, those guys were using my five Houses. Amanda from California was teaching the group. Oh, with your property. The C3X pay down with my property last year. And she's like, Oh, can I talk to you about that? I was like, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So I love what I'm saying. and, the rest of my team is Michelle, of course. Rashon, we got the La LeBron team. Yeah. Looks like, looks like we got the same team. I got Fritz and Michelle also. So does Michael Santoro. So great team there. And, here's your Pacman man. Your, your pacman's mouth is a little, little, little closer. You got, this big old pie here of, uh, home price appreciation with your tax savings and your rental income. Tax saving is zero because it's in a retirement account. Right. So that makes sense. Yep. It's always good. That's a great, uh, great feeling knowing that I got a great team working with me. JWB does a phenomenal job for me every year. It was, it was not going to be a, Oh, aren't they doing a great job? Yeah. Can't say that this time. Love it. Well, you know, who else did a great job is the two of you did a great job on the show today. I appreciate you. So full disclosure. this show happened because Lee shot me a text saying, Hey, I was at the summit. I was, Kelly was doing some, something in front of the camera. I jumped in, we became a great tag team. And I think that we would make a great show together, gave us an idea. We made it happen. We love it when the community, brings forth ideas for shows. Danny Davies just, emailed us one last week. We're going to do a show about it in July. So if you have ideas, we want to dig into them, right? Whether you're the star of it or we're diving into these topics, but I really do appreciate the two of you. taking the time to do it, especially with GC out. with his family. So it worked out really, really great. And I appreciate the community, of course, who always shows up here. Never take it for granted. We love the community. Hey, you don't have to tell me about it. You're traveling and like meeting up with community members left and right over here. So it's real. I don't know if the guy, I don't know if our amigo still has the poncho back there, but I appreciate him, being part of the show and everything that he does. so we'll see you all next week. We got a, a super exciting, you know what? I don't remember what the, the title of the show is next. Oh yeah. JWB has got this new portfolio planning tool. That Greg developed a new technology and rental property investing, developed by GC himself. So we're going to be unveiling that thing. and we're going to use it to compare current real estate markets from market to market, in a portfolio fashion. That's, that's the new technology is this ability to compare Apple to Apple across markets. I hope to see you all there. And, any, any advice, any advice, from the two of you for our community from here until then? Ready? One, two, three. Big Average. Big Average.