Why does divorce cost so much and take so long?

Ever wondered why untangling the knot of marriage can feel like braving a labyrinth? In a truth-telling session with financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, therapist Pete Roussos, and attorney Shawn Weber, we uncover the multifaceted journey through divorce. Starting with a chuckle, we quickly delve into the sobering realities couples face as they divide their lives, emphasizing the pivotal role of understanding both the tangible assets and the intangible emotional investments involved.

Navigating a divorce can feel like steering through a storm, with the potential to either reach safe harbor swiftly or get mired in tempestuous disputes. Our experts dissect the emotional echoes of marriage that reverberate through the legal process, illustrating with tales of lightning-fast settlements and agonizing multi-year battles. The conversation is an eye-opener to the significance of emotional intelligence and the strategies that can help avoid the quicksand of acrimony, framing a realistic picture of what closure might truly entail.

Lastly, we stitch together the wisdom of our Three Wisemen of Divorce to craft an arsenal of negotiation strategies that balance heart and wallet. This episode isn't just about the end of a marriage; it's a guide to the beginning of a future—with the clarity and support to make it a healthier, wealthier one. Join us for an intimate exploration of the intersection between the ledger and the heart in the landscape of divorce.

The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.

© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Shawn Weber: 0:00

Well, every good dad joke I've learned this from being a father every good dad joke needs to cause physical pain. Welcome to the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts Experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, marriage and family therapist Pete Russos and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co-parenting and the difficult decisions real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. Are looking at divorce or separation can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 60 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co-parenting. So I've got a joke, guys. Why does a divorce cost so much? Tell us, because it's worth it. Okay, what do you think?

Peter Roussos: 1:18

No, no, I'll tell you why jokes like that make me a little bit uncomfortable.

Shawn Weber: 1:25

First of all. It should make you uncomfortable, actually, because it's kind of an irreverent, inappropriate joke.

Peter Roussos: 1:30

Well, and I I, I know the two of you very well and I know how, how. First of all, I know how kind and compassionate and committed you are to a healthy divorce process Uh, to a healthy divorce process, and I don't have any doubts whatsoever about that, and we've talked a lot about how divorce is, you know, one of the most gut-wrenching and painful things that a person can go through. But I do wonder about somebody who might be tuning in for the first time, who doesn't have a sense of us, and why we're doing this, which is all about how to have the healthiest possible divorce process.

Shawn Weber: 2:13

Yeah, I mean that's a good point. I mean, people come at our divorce process from different places, yeah, and some of them are willing to have more of a sense of humor and more be more irreverent about it than others. I've had people that come in with the divorce cake, which is like the you know, the groom being pushed off the cake by the bride. On the cake and there's like severed head and blood. They think that's hilarious and if I were to show that to another couple, they would see that as something really offensive. They think that's hilarious and if I were to show that to another couple, they would see that as something really offensive.

Peter Roussos: 2:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Weber: 2:51

And there's reasons why it is offensive. People come at us from different places and we have to meet them where they are, don't we? That's a good point.

Peter Roussos: 3:05

But having said that, it's a pretty good joke well, yeah, it is actually.

Shawn Weber: 3:10

The thing is scary about it. There's some truth to it. I mean, there's a yeah why people are, yes, pay these untold amount of money to get their divorce done. You know, it's because they need to get out of their marriage. Whether that's good or bad, they need to get out.

Mark Hill: 3:27

Yeah, I have to tell you my divorce cake story. Oh, I want to hear. It Did a very high dollar, high profile divorce case. At the end of it the wife said it was full collaborative, full team. The wife said I want to take the whole team to dinner. So we go to this fancy restaurant in Del Mar. It's a big table set up and in the middle of the table is this four-tier cake with the decapitated husband on the top and the sauce dripping down across the different layers of the cake Red sauce dripping down Red different layers of the cake.

Shawn Weber: 4:05

Oh, red sauce.

Mark Hill: 4:05

dripping down Red sauce, yeah, and she's holding the decapitated head of the groom in her hand on the top of the cake. And so everyone shows up, the full team shows up, the wife is there, husband shows up late, comes in, sees the cake and goes and goes. Oh, there we go, all the hostilities out there on the table.

Shawn Weber: 4:31

Now we can have a nice dinner so was that a collaborative case that you?

Mark Hill: 4:36

it was a collaborative case.

Shawn Weber: 4:37

Yes, yeah, so they were able to.

Mark Hill: 4:39

They had that emotional space because they did it collaboratively where they could have that kind of irreverent joking that may have some layer of truth in it I think she was making something of a point, but at the same time, you know, because he was the one that wanted the divorce, um, but at the same time, you know, it allowed a little more space for us to operate. Because of that, you know.

Peter Roussos: 5:05

Yeah, was the cake at all, mark? Did it have a slightly bitter flavor? I'm curious.

Mark Hill: 5:11

You know, I don't recall, but I have a photograph of it to this day it's on my phone that I'd be happy to share with everyone.

Shawn Weber: 5:18

What is the ancient Klingon proverb? That revenge is a dish best served cold.

Peter Roussos: 5:24

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Weber: 5:26

Yeah, wow.

Mark Hill: 5:28

Yes, but what does take so long in divorce then?

Shawn Weber: 5:31

Well, that's the thing I mean. One of the reasons it costs so much is because it takes a long time. Exactly, yeah. And why does it take a long time? You know?

Mark Hill: 5:40

from my standpoint, I've got a very narrow focus at the start of a case, which is to try to understand what the pie looks like, what's going to be needed to be divided, both in terms of income and expenses and assets and debts. And I always tell people we don't have a case, you've got nothing going, we can't do anything until you've completed those mandatory court forms and exchanged them. Basically, I've got to get statements, I've got to get data. People have to engage in that process and often what we find is that one is more motivated than the other.

Mark Hill: 6:21

So one person, because they decided years ago they want to get a divorce, they just told their spouse and, uh, so they've been thinking about this, they're ready to go, they'll get the statements, you know, overnight, um. But the other spouse, who's still processing the fact that they are getting a divorce, can often be very reluctant to engage. And the problem we face is that these documents can age out. In other words, the court forms require them to be within a certain period of the time they're signed as to how old the statements are. So if you've got one person dragging their feet and the other person engaged, the frustration level of the person that did that work can escalate to the point where it can actually make it more difficult to even have a case.

Peter Roussos: 7:15

How do you both answer the question? I imagine you're asking a lot. How long will it take? How do you feel that question?

Mark Hill: 7:25

Well, there's a legal answer to that. There's a waiting period. So you start there, once you filed it, six months before you can be divorced not that you have to be divorced at that point.

Shawn Weber: 7:36

That's at least in California.

Mark Hill: 7:38

In California. Yes, sorry yeah. Yeah, just thank you for pointing that out, and beyond that I say what is pretty much up to you.

Shawn Weber: 7:48

I always tell people there's no cookie cutter that fits everybody the same way. I do have gross averages. Most of my mediated cases are about six to eight months to complete. A collaborative case tends to be a little bit more than 12 months and a collaborative case tends to be a little bit more than 12 months, but everybody's different. And I always say my world indoor record was 25 minutes. They came in, they knew what they wanted. It was the college divorce where all they had was a car and some student loan debt. That was easy, in 25 minutes we were done. And then I had the case that's gone six plus years. In fact, it's still going on.

Shawn Weber: 8:33

It's one of the cases that mark and I pull our hair out over um, and and there's reasons for that, you know and and they spend an enormous amount of fees and enormous amount of time and it's a fairly complex financial case and I think what made that case in particular take as long as it's taking is it's also very emotionally complex. The dynamic between the parties is so unbelievably toxic that um, and they've got brilliant coaches that are working with them, but it is just, uh, you know you, stop and start, you, stop and start, you stop and start, you think you're on your way to something, and then somebody brings up something new that's such a zinger at the other person. Then it blows up and then you got to start over again.

Mark Hill: 9:13

And all our documents keep aging out.

Shawn Weber: 9:16

Yeah.

Mark Hill: 9:17

And we have to redo it and then the cost goes up.

Shawn Weber: 9:20

So Well, and they do things also that make it take longer, longer like this, continuing to use joint assets yeah, five years down the road, they're still using the same account like separate your money already, you know, but that's that's taking, that, that causes it to take longer.

Shawn Weber: 9:37

And it's not like I have some people where they continue to use joint assets, but they're just kind of cool with that, they don't even care and they'll just wash it out at the end. I want to do all the math, but these people want to sharpen their pencils and do every transaction. And well, that means that mark has to go through bank statements for years and years to.

Mark Hill: 9:55

And I come up with a number, and then this case goes to sleep for nine months. And now, the numbers are out of date.

Shawn Weber: 10:03

But here we go again. So, but I think, and that wouldn't happen, mark, on that case, if it wasn't for the family dynamic, would it?

Shawn Weber: 10:16

No, this would have been settled before they moved out of town. Frankly, yeah, and then I had a couple this morning that I met with and she was weepy and she got on the call before he did and she was really kind of weepy about it and she's like I'm just very emotional about the case ending. I think that's part of why I don't want to do my forms. Yeah, so there's a thing going on there where she's kind of dragging her feet and he's dragging his feet too, because it means that it's finally over. I mean, you see that, pete, don't you? Can you speak to that?

Peter Roussos: 10:48

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I've ever. I'm just thinking, in all the years I've been doing divorce work, have I ever had a case where the partners were coming in and operating at the same sense of pacing? And the answer to that is no. And I've only had one case, and it was a collaborative case, and one of the parties had no ambivalence whatsoever, no second guessing, about the need to divorce. They were so done and it actually was, I think, pathological on their part. Every other divorce case that I've worked there's always been a level of ambivalence, certainly grieving. I mean, when I hear you describing what that person is describing, she's talking about a grief process, that's exactly right and I think it's really important that that be part of the work that is ideally happening in a divorce process.

Shawn Weber: 11:52

Well, it was interesting, pete, because I asked her. I'm like, well, are you having second thoughts about the divorce, because I want to push a divorce if they're thinking they want to stay together? And she's like oh F, no, it's not like she's like oh f, no, you know, right, right, she, she. It's not like she's having second thoughts about the divorce. But, yeah, there's grief, there's grief and it's still taking it's a little time to be willing to finish it. Yeah, yeah, even though she doesn't want to go back yeah.

Peter Roussos: 12:20

So ambivalence doesn't necessarily mean second thoughts. It can be a desire to avoid the finality. Even though a person in an intellectual way that can understand it's the right thing to do, it's a healthy decision, there's still that sense of loss and an emotional level. You know there's no, I don't think I've ever encountered a completely bad relationship. Every marriage that I've ever encountered in my work, every divorce case that I've ever encountered, there is the good stuff that's there. There's a wisdom that brings people together and sometimes that wisdom fails and a marriage ends. But when they end, when a relationship ends, when it started with love and a relationship ends, there's always a grief process and avoiding that or denying that, I think, is one of the things that that is core, the core cause, if you will, for people that that then get stuck after divorce in moving on makes it more likely that they're going to repeat mistakes and subsequent relationships.

Shawn Weber: 13:36

Well, and you're not going to divorce differently than you were married. Yeah, you're still the same people. Sometimes I'm like what did you expect this person to get a lobotomy? They're going to change who they are Once you filed the petition. They're going to stay the same person.

Mark Hill: 13:52

I say to people, wouldn't it be unreasonable to expect the divorce to be any easier than the marriage would be? And they always nod.

Shawn Weber: 14:00

You know they get it when you put it in those terms well, it is interesting, you can get married very quickly, yes, you know, uh, but but getting divorced, unwinding that marriage, I mean we've all done the case with, you know, the one year divorce. I've got a couple of those right now and they're they're taking a terrible amount of time to unwind just a year, you know. And and so we have people that have been together 30, 40 years. You know that's not something you unwind easily, right?

Peter Roussos: 14:30

So I think. I think that does then beg the question. Maybe, if we turn the question around, let me ask the two of you so what is it that you uh tell people they can do in order to move their process along more quickly?

Shawn Weber: 14:48

I think number one is do your homework, finish your tasks.

Mark Hill: 14:57

I have a whole lot.

Shawn Weber: 14:59

Your deliverables. As one client says yeah, we have. One client says what are my deliverables?

Mark Hill: 15:02

And then he never delivers anything. It's true, it's true, it's true?

Shawn Weber: 15:07

Yeah well, it's the same list that we gave you last time. You didn't deliver anything. Yeah, I think now I lost my train of thought. Yeah, finishing your task, finishing your homework, getting it done. I always tell my clients and maybe this is bad customer service, but it's a reality. I, as the practitioner, won't and cannot work harder than my clients. I'll meet them halfway, to the extent that they're willing to move forward. I'm willing to move forward. I'm willing to move forward, but if they don't do what they need to do to move the case forward, it can't move forward. There's nothing I can do about it.

Peter Roussos: 15:44

Well, I realize that people don't know what they don't know. Well, that's true. How do people who've never gone through a divorce process before I can imagine when you guys are explaining to them what is required of them, what their deliverables are, what their homework is. I can imagine that most people are maybe surprised by that.

Shawn Weber: 16:05

Well, and sometimes their eyes glaze over.

Mark Hill: 16:08

Yeah, people hate filling out forms. I mean I hate filling out forms. I get it. Okay, I understand. You never feel like the form quite captures who you are filling out forms.

Peter Roussos: 16:15

number one, I mean, I hate filling out forms.

Mark Hill: 16:15

I get it okay. I understand you never feel like the form quite captures who you are. It seems impersonal and it's a pain in the butt well, these forms are are detailed.

Shawn Weber: 16:24

They require the use of your prefrontal cortex in your brain right, the logic centers of your brain.

Mark Hill: 16:30

But if you're in a fight-or-flight place, or you're enraged or you're terrified, how easy is it pete then to pay attention to details or you're resentful and you basically don't want to give the other person what they're demanding, and so you drag your feet, and then it's's the person that comes into alternative dispute resolution because they believe if they can delay the process long enough, the person on the other side will come to their senses and come back into the marriage.

Shawn Weber: 17:05

I do know this. People sometimes think, well, litigation will go faster, and that is not the case. You take a litigation case and you multiply the time by three. And the cost by at least three, and that's probably close to what would happen and the wheels of justice at the courthouse turn extremely slowly.

Peter Roussos: 17:28

Well, and I imagine that they don't have less homework in the litigation process.

Shawn Weber: 17:32

They don't less homework in a litigation process, they don't. Maybe even more, and you know just to get a trial after you've done all of your disclosure and your discovery and you told the courts we've done all the discovery, we're ready for a trial, let's go. You will get a date. A year out, maybe longer, yeah, because I mean there's so many cases and you're one of a thousand that this judge is thinking about, you know, and so thinking that the court will get you, like getting your day in court is somehow going to move this along now, where the the only thing I would maybe a friendly amendment to this whole concept is that sometimes you have to do court because at least it will move forward.

Shawn Weber: 18:17

Yes, there are those cases where they just get stuck and they're in a swamp and they just sink like they're walking through mud and they don't move. What happens when you do that? You just sink. Sometimes those people, I'm to the point where you know it's unethical for me to continue with you because you never continue your commitments, you never get, you can't reach agreements. It's like Groundhog Day. We're doing the same thing over and over again. I feel like it's unethical for me to continue to take money from you. You should just go to court and it will be resolved. I mean, that's one of the benefits of court I can resolve just about any issue. But the drawbacks to court is it's expensive and they can't be very flexible. They have to apply the law the way that it's applied and that's it, whereas what we do we're more creative and outside the law when they tell you you have to be there, you have to be there and you better be there.

Mark Hill: 19:17

Yeah, the court can hold you in contempt, the court can fine you. You know, one thing that I find is delays cases is what I don't know. In other words, in these longer term marriages we come up against things that I can't get statements from. Institutions more than five or seven or the most 10 years back. Institutions more than five or seven, or the most 10 years back. So we often have situations where we just cannot give the data that would normally be used in the process to determine separate property assets, for example. We just can't get the statements.

Mark Hill: 19:46

Nobody's fault, just can't get them Okay. So there's that aspect to it. There's also things like they bought a house in. They've got a case right now. They bought a house in 1993. Well, in 1998, the tax laws changed to mean that you could own a house for two out of five years and then get, as a married couple, up to half a million dollars exclusion from gain. But if you owned a house in 1993 and you bought a condo that you rolled the profit in from in 1984, now you've got a situation where I cannot tell you what your basis in the property is and the IRS will tell you well, it's zero. Then if you can't prove it, no one's going to do that. So until I get the data, I don't know what the issues are, and Sean can't know what the issues are. To have a meeting and to go through what do you guys want to do about?

Shawn Weber: 20:42

this. Well, I had that conversation with the frustrated client that's like, why can't we just be done? I'm like, well, you're not ready to have an intelligent conversation yet about this, to have an intelligent conversation yet about this. You know, we've talked about this before, mark, the concept of agreement, readiness, yes, yeah, that the case will not settle, basically until the case is ripe enough to settle. And a big part of that is having the data, having the information, so that we can speak intelligently about the issues.

Shawn Weber: 21:12

And sometimes things are just complex and it's going to take some time to just muddle through that, you know. And so there is a little bit of patience that people need to have. Um, you know, and sometimes I'm telling people, you know it's not going to happen. They don't understand how come, how thorough the disclosures by law must be to prevent them from having huge problems later. So that gets to be. I mean, it's universally loathed, the disclosure process. No one loves to fill out disclosure forms, but they must be done. Even if you think the other person knows about it already and even if both of you agree, you still have to do the disclosure and declare an appellate perjury.

Mark Hill: 21:54

And there's real potential risk by not doing it accurately. Yeah, I mean you say, oh, I've got this separate property stuff that's mine. She knows it's mine. I'm not even going to put it on the form. Well, how does that work, counselor? If something comes up later, some kind of disagreement?

Shawn Weber: 22:15

Well, you can end up having the MSA, the marital settlement agreement that you worked so hard to negotiate. You could have it set aside because something was forgotten. Worse can happen is you could have sanctions. You could lose the asset. We've talked about the lottery case before, where the person the woman bought a lottery ticket and didn't tell her husband that she won, and then he figured it out later, after the divorce was already finalized. She didn't put in her disclosures and he got 100 of the lottery winnings awarded to him because she was a bad girl and didn't disclose. So I'm always telling people you've got to take this as serious as a heart attack, because the court does yeah so I mean there there is stuff, there's tasks that have to get done, that are time consuming.

Shawn Weber: 22:57

I mean, the faster you get the time the tasks done, you get the data to your financial specialist or to your mediator, the better, because then it can get done faster. Most mediators and financial people have methods to help you get it done quicker. Um, you know, and then and then then we can get to a place of agreement. Readiness now another place, I think, blows cases up and makes them take longer. Mark is this what do you think of this? Um, they try to negotiate something that has been very difficult for them to talk about. That's why they've hired a professional mediator and they choose to negotiate it themselves at Denny's. Yeah, and how does that usually go?

Mark Hill: 23:36

Usually we get a call the following day saying that was a disaster, and we're back to square one.

Shawn Weber: 23:44

We're more angry than we started Exactly. Or we have that case where she dropped, left him on the side of the road, they got in the car together and drove somewhere, and then she she threw him out of the car on the freeway. Yeah, she left him out of the him on the side of the road. They got in the car together and drove somewhere, and then she she threw him out of the car on the freeway.

Mark Hill: 23:56

Yeah, he left him out of the car on the side of the freeway and drove they were on the way to to an appointment for their child who had some mental health issues and uh, and we told him take separate cars, but no, yeah, so um, I always tell people I mean, if you want to negotiate things on your own, that's great, but if you even sense a slight amount of blood pressure increase, stop.

Shawn Weber: 24:22

There's a reason why you've hired professionals. We know how to help you get through this managing the emotional responses and and let us work with you, let us do what we are paid to do to help you get this done. Otherwise, it will take longer because you'll have blowups.

Peter Roussos: 24:39

One of the things that I like to ask clients who are thinking about having that kind of conversation is I like to ask them well, tell me, what gives you confidence that you're going to be able to have that conversation effectively and appropriately?

Shawn Weber: 24:57

Oh, it's a brilliant question.

Mark Hill: 25:01

I love that, but I also ask them so have you ever talked about this before? Yes, how?

Shawn Weber: 25:07

did that go? How did that go? Oh it's terrible. She threw a hairdryer at me. I'm right. Oh it's terrible.

Peter Roussos: 25:13

She threw a hairdryer at me. Well, that's why you do it at Denny's because usually there isn't a hairdryer.

Mark Hill: 25:19

No, no you do it in the bathroom, not in the kitchen. This hairdryer is not knives that fly across the room.

Shawn Weber: 25:28

That's like that scene. You remember the Sopranos? And there's the scene where the I can't remember her name wife carmella, yeah, um, told tony that she wanted a divorce. And so they go to their favorite italian restaurant, where everything happens in this show, right, and she, she tells them, um, she wants a divorce and that that conversation didn't go very well. She's's like I want what I'm entitled to and he's like you're entitled to something. You know he used some expletives to explain what she was entitled to, but yeah, I mean, it often doesn't work.

Mark Hill: 26:07

Yeah, if it were easy, it would be.

Shawn Weber: 26:14

You know, there wouldn't be an industry surrounding it which you know, maybe that's why divorces are expensive is because they're hard, yeah yeah, and there's some work that has to be done, so maybe saying it's worth it I mean, that may be true for some people, but maybe the issue is the reason you're willing to pay the money to the professionals to help you is because this is hard. And having people with credentials and experience, who've seen a few divorces, I usually tell people I think I've seen a few more divorces than you have. I think I've been involved in a few more. Well, I certainly hope you have.

Shawn Weber: 26:51

And so my 20 plus years of experience doing hundreds of divorces a year, yeah, I've seen some things and I know what will work and what doesn't work, and you don't know the questions you don't know to ask. And then bringing in other professionals you know I am an attorney here, but bringing in a financial professional and a mental health professional to bring in additional experience just adds more to that so that people can be done more quickly. Now you know another thing I've seen guys, when you have the, sometimes you have a person that's going faster than the other person, right? You mentioned that earlier, pete, and do you think this is what I've observed? I think it only goes as fast as the slowest person.

Mark Hill: 27:35

I would say a little faster than the slowest person wants to proceed. Yeah, okay, Because they do get we do push them along, but at the same time you know we've got that case, sean. That's been going on forever, you know where. Finally, the wife gave us some dates for the final, final, final meeting. You know, yeah, finally the wife gave us some dates for the final, final, final meeting. You know, yeah.

Peter Roussos: 28:01

She would disappear for months on end and not respond. You know the way that I'll describe because that question is always asked is you know it's going to move faster than you to the person who is who is, uh, slower, if you will, in their adjustment, it's going to move faster than you probably wanted to, and to the other person it's going to move slower than you wanted to, and that that actually, I think, accommodating those pacing differences is an important part of the collaboration that's necessary in a healthier divorce process.

Mark Hill: 28:33

For them to understand that.

Mark Hill: 28:36

Well, there's the emotional readiness, but also we often have what I call the non-moneyed spouse, the person that can take care of the money during the marriage, and he or she needs to get up to speed, to be a participant at the table, and so, even once the disclosures are done and we know what the pie looks like, I might have to have a conversation with someone about. You know your spouse's benefits and you know what their income really looks like when we take into account all the little perks they get. You know that no one comes out of the womb knowing how this works, and it's complex, and even CPAs don't understand how divorce works. As we have found many times, what's appropriate for the IRS may not be appropriate for the courts in divorce, and that's shocking to some people.

Shawn Weber: 29:29

What you mean. I don't get to remove depreciation from my income, yep and a divorce, and that's right.

Mark Hill: 29:38

Yeah, it may work for the IRS, but it doesn't work. And the fact that your car and your cell phone and all your children's cell phones are put through on your company, that doesn't necessarily work for divorce.

Shawn Weber: 29:48

Yeah, yeah. And then you know kind of also sometimes slower is faster. You know, I know if I try to do a job really fast, that is intricate, I'll screw it up and then I have to go back and unwind something. So yeah, I mean we want to be efficient, but sometimes going too fast and I've seen that will trip you up and make the case last longer.

Peter Roussos: 30:14

Well, I wonder about cases that you've had where, because I think the risk that you're just describing, sean I think of it in terms of really getting out that drives buyer's remorse and how unresolved grief or or grief or incomplete grief and I think, drive that kind of ambivalence.

Mark Hill: 30:51

We have that case right now, sean. We write. You talked about it earlier today.

Shawn Weber: 30:56

Where there's what what our colleague Nancyancy ross calls negative intimacy. Um, parties kind of become addicted to one another in their relationship. That's how relationships work, and so if they can't have a positive connection, they'll have a negative one, and so we might be on the threshold of signing the final marital settlement agreement, and then someone will throw in some horrible thing or some monkey wrench, and I don't know if I don't think it's even conscious, I think they just do it. And then what it does is it prolongs the process, because then I get to have a connection with this person you know and you call him as well. I don't want to be connected to him, but then they do things that force them to be connected. Yeah, I'm kind of speaking your language, pete. Am I making any sense?

Peter Roussos: 31:45

No, absolutely, and so it's interesting. As you were talking about that, I was thinking about something you said earlier. Vis-a-vis a litigation process, you were talking about how the court can apply sanctions, and so what incentives? If you will do you have in a process other than the withdrawing from a case because it's stuck, that situation that you described earlier. How do you you motivate people?

Shawn Weber: 32:19

how do you affect? There is the specter of the other person is going to be fed up and go to court, and these are the bad things that can happen to you at court. But there's also just the you know what. What would your life be like if you could go to bed at night without worrying what the other person is going to do next?

Mark Hill: 32:39

And that there's one who's been through divorce the only one at the table here. That is far more debilitating than I would even admit. I know that, going through a very challenging divorce, I was having real trouble sleeping, finally got it resolved. Guess what I sleep like a baby, you know. It's really interesting, although I would have denied that that was the cause, but it was you know there's.

Shawn Weber: 33:11

You know we talk about in terms of negotiation, you know going back to, you know that, getting to, yes, and they talk about the best alternative to a negotiated agreement and the worst alternative to a negotiated agreement and having that kind of being bookends in your understanding of the case, making sure you have a clarity about your BATNA the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, and your WATNA, the worst alternative to a negotiated agreement. But there's another concept that's also very important. It's called the NAN N-A-N your negotiated agreement, and you're what? The worst alternative to negotiate agreement. But there's another concept, it's also very important. It's called the NAN N-A-N your negotiated agreement.

Shawn Weber: 33:45

Now, and what would happen in your life? Why would that be something that you would want in a negotiated agreement? Now, maybe you're giving up something that is below your best case scenario or worst case scenario. Maybe it's different than what your attorney is even telling you you should be asking for or entitled to, but you're buying your piece and there's no attorney, no financial person that can figure out exactly what that's worth to you. But it does have value and so, thinking about that, what is that value to me? Am I, is there something I'm willing to leave on the table so I can be done.

Mark Hill: 34:27

And interestingly that is rarely a conversation that's had early in the process.

Shawn Weber: 34:35

You're right, and we should do it more.

Mark Hill: 34:37

We should do that more, because what tends to happen is people can become entrenched in the divorce process. Well, they can focus on things that I mean. We have a case right now where there's some issues that need to be addressed, but wife could not focus on the immediate demand to get their documents in place or get the documents to me, because she was so focused on this other wrong that she perceived to have been wrought upon her, which actually we all agree she was.

Peter Roussos: 35:28

I think it's tricky, though, because I think that if that conversation is had prematurely, it can come across to clients, I think, as though we're encouraging them to negotiate against themselves. And what I've seen the two of you do very adeptly, I think, in cases is to have the conversation with clients that goes something like this Well, you know you could take that position, but let's talk about what it's going to cost you financially in order to maintain that position, to literally do it. I've heard the two of you talk about it in terms of a cost-benefit analysis and, broadly, these conversations of do you want to win the battle and lose the war? And I think that the timing of that and it's I think it's sad, but I think it's a truism that sometimes there's a level of pain or discomfort that clients have to go through before they're ready, I think, to really face that kind of choice dilemma.

Shawn Weber: 36:16

I think that's true. Or this question I know that's a very important principle to you Is that a hill you want to die on today?

Mark Hill: 36:27

And when I've got the data, I can quantify it, and that's something that often doesn't happen. They're fighting over a concept, but it's only $300 in a, you know, two million dollar case yeah, yes, it's so true.

Shawn Weber: 36:45

You know, when we say that, is that a hill you want to die on today, I think of my father, who was a veteran of the korean war and fought at heartbreak ridge wow and it was really the whole point of that battle was just, can we get a little bit of real estate?

Shawn Weber: 36:58

and then they end up losing the real estate anyway, yeah. And so what was the point of that battle was? Just, can we get a little bit of real estate? And then they ended up losing the real estate anyway, yeah. And so what was the point of all that death and carnage? Now, hopefully there's not death and carnage in people's divorces, but, um, but there's damage, there's damage and there's collateral damage.

Mark Hill: 37:15

Exactly, there's damage that goes beyond the couple.

Shawn Weber: 37:19

There's victims beyond the couple. There's victims beyond the couple like especially if you have kids.

Mark Hill: 37:23

Yeah, and and other family members you know.

Shawn Weber: 37:28

Yeah, so you know. Think about that, grandparents' rights. We sometimes say, well, it's the principle. What are principles are expensive. Yeah, you know so. So how is this bridge that you're fighting over this hill? Is this really something that you're willing to lay it all there?

Mark Hill: 37:45

I had an issue with real estate where a guy who sold me the real estate lied and I was incensed and went to my business attorney and was just complaining about it cost me $26,000 to repair this and he lied about this and it was obviously leaking before and I said it's the principle of the thing and my attorney said oh Mark, please, please, he goes, don't talk about principle.

Mark Hill: 38:14

We have a broken system. You will win this case, but it might cost you 100,000 in experts and the judge may just decide you have to eat. That it's like we have a broken system and so making clients aware of the fact that you go to court it's not Al Pacino and justice for all folks. It is a situation where, depending upon the mood of the judge, who the judge is, how well educated the judge is in terms of family law and we know sometimes people are just doing their two or three years in family law before they can move on be judges where they really want to be judges and there are some excellent family judges who really know what they're doing, don't get me wrong but there's also those others who are just transitory and they will decide your case and, as I walked out of court. One day I was violated by this process. It's exactly how I felt.

Shawn Weber: 39:15

Well, guys, maybe we should kind of summarize where we've been here. So the things that slow the case down are many fold, right. So one is clients have got to get their homework done or it's going to take longer yeah, that's one. The other is sometimes there's just kind of emotional reasons that cause there to be blocks, which could be one of the reasons that we prevent people don't get their homework done, yeah, or at the end of the case that we prevent, you know, people don't get their homework done, or at the end of the case, things get strung out. The other is using joint resources longer than you really ought. I also thought about using the court system that makes it take longer, and then the standing by a principle that you really, really it's not the hill you should die on.

Peter Roussos: 40:01

And when, I would add to that you're. You reference the emotional piece, but I want to be even more specific, Please, sean. Is is is denying and not facing the grief process that is inherent to divorce.

Mark Hill: 40:16

Hmm, yes, yeah, yes yeah, there's always some loss no matter how difficult marriage became. There is always a loss and you feel that loss.

Shawn Weber: 40:29

And I might add another one, and that is feeling like it is going to work for you to impose your will, because that usually slows it down. It's kind of like when I first got a puppy and tried to take it for a walk and I pulled on his collar and he's like you're pulling my collar, I'm gonna sit down, and I think people aren't much different.

Peter Roussos: 40:58

So helping you know, helping people see that it's in their best interest to actually move, Well, I think the way that that I will talk with people about that kind of dynamic that you're describing is, I literally will say you know, I think you both have learned the hard way that you can't get the other person to do something that that he or she doesn't want to do. And so how is it that you think, in this process, you're going to be able to exert what you want or to behave unilaterally? How do you expect that to go?

Shawn Weber: 41:33

How's that going to work, yeah? Well, we'll just do it.

Peter Roussos: 41:35

It's the right thing to do, or and I think that sometimes there's an expectation that the professionals involved are going to land a kind of either authority or a force.

Shawn Weber: 41:49

Yeah.

Peter Roussos: 41:51

That is one of the magical powers to us?

Shawn Weber: 41:53

Yeah, you're my attorney, can't you make this happen? Yeah, and we're not magical. Smart, yes, magical no and you know.

Mark Hill: 42:07

The reality is that when financial resources get cut in half, lifestyles change. Yeah, two households cost a lot more to run than one household, and so expectations coming into it and entitlements. I'm entitled to this, it's. Somebody told me I'm entitled to the marital standard of living. Well, that's the first half of the sentence. What does the second half say? If it's available and I'm paraphrasing, but it generally isn't available.

Shawn Weber: 42:40

Well, and marital standard of living is one of 15 factors, right, yeah, the last factor being one that you always point out, mark.

Mark Hill: 42:47

Anything the judge thinks is important, exactly, yeah, and I've had people say well, it sounds like you could do anything. I go bingo now, you understand. Can we negotiate please? Yeah, well, anchoring slows things down too. I go bingo Now, you understand.

Shawn Weber: 42:59

Can we negotiate please? Yeah, well, anchoring slows things down too. I mean, if you anchor on a concept that you only have half information about, yeah, that can screw you up. All right, guys. Well, we did it again. We did indeed. Hopefully the people listening are getting something out of this. We know you're out there and we appreciate you.

Mark Hill: 43:20

Yes, indeed, and if you have questions, please reach out to us. We'd be delighted to address any issues that you are concerned about during the process. Bring us your, bring us your questions.

Peter Roussos: 43:34

At the very least, guys, with today's episode, at the very least, if they use it judiciously and with discretion, they got a good joke. Exactly, they got a good joke out of this.

Shawn Weber: 43:47

Oh, I would say a meta. You know a mediocre joke, you're so hard on yourself well, every good dad joke I've learned this from being a father every good dad joke needs to cause physical pain and long long groans we need to start timing. The zone the groans on my dad used to say ooh, that's a double groaner, alright. Well, if they had questions for you, how would they get a hold of you? Ooh, that's a double groaner, all right. Well, if they had questions for you.

Peter Roussos: 44:24

How would they get ahold of you, Peter? My website peterrousoscom, that's P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-Scom. Contact me on that website.

Mark Hill: 44:38

And my website is packdivorcecom, short for Pacific Divorce Management P-A-C-D-I-V-O-R-C-Ecom. Again, we have a contact form and a lot of useful information on there regarding divorce.

Shawn Weber: 44:51

And if anybody wants to get a hold of me, likewise my website, weberdisputeresolutioncom. Weberdisputeresolutioncom that's Weber with one B. Like the grill dispute, like we had a fight and resolution. Like we solved itcom. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. Health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation. Thank you.