083 Learning to Love Yourself

This week Charlie talks with photographer Jamie Schofield Riva on her new book Girlhood: Lost and Found. An artistic career unfolds in ways we cannot anticipate, but Jamie did know a few things for sure, she wanted to be a mother, and she wanted a serious creative life. Charlie and Jamie talk about how that was possible, along with a deep conversation about girlhood, womanhood, and the road to self-love. It's another fascinating look into the creative process. You can follow CBP on Instagram @creatingbehavior, and Charlie's NYC acting conservatory, the Maggie Flanigan Studio @maggieflaniganstudio. Theme music by  https://www.thelawrencetrailer.com. For written transcripts, to leave a voicemail on SpeakPipe, or contact Charlie for private coaching, check out https://www.creatingbehaviorpodcast.com

Transcript

Charlie (00:03):

I think one of the really great things about being in a relationship, if you're lucky and have chosen wisely, which I have, are the friendships, the social structure that your partner can bring into your life. I can tell you about Trish, she has got some incredible friendships. Ride or die relationships. Some women in her life that would do anything for her and vice versa. I get to speak to one of them today, Jamie Riva. This is a woman who started out as a model, pursued acting, put her artistic life on hold, so to speak, to raise a family. She wanted to be a mother. She's got two really wonderful kids now in their teen years, but she never lost her artistic spirit or her drive. And she's getting ready to release her first book of photography. It's called Girlhood: Lost and Found.

(00:49):

It's a collection of childhood diary entries, photographs of herself, her daughter, her mom, her street art, and some really personal letters from the women in her life, friends, her mother, her daughter. It's about body image, about self-worth, about what it means to be a woman, about being a mother. It's a great conversation. I look forward to sharing it with you, so put the phone back in your pocket. Creating Behavior starts now (singing).

(01:45):

Well, hello my fellow daydreamers. One thing that I admire in people, and this is a quality that Jamie has, are those of you that can navigate multiple passions and not have to give up one for the other. A lot of people can't do that. "Oh, I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to do my music, but I had a kid when I was 22 and it just never happened for me." Life goes in a certain way and those dreams or those artistic creative aspirations, they just get flushed right down the toilet. Then you have some people who know that they are artists at their core, but they also want something else in life. They're not willing to give up everything for their art.

(02:45):

That's the case with Jamie. This is a woman who started out as a model. She pursued her acting career. She actually trained seriously as an actor and pursued it, but she also wanted to be a mom, and she knew it in her bones, right? She wanted to have kids. She put her artistic life on hold, so to speak, and she raised a family. She's got two incredible kids. They're in their early teens. Then over the last five or six years, she really seriously picked up her camera and she has produced this book of photography, Girlhood: Lost and Found. It comes out here in September. You can get it everywhere and anywhere. You can always go to amazon.com and get it.

(03:37):

It is a searingly, vulnerable and risky piece of art. I tell my students, you got to be willing to put your soul on the line. You got to be able to risk something really personal if you want to contribute something of value, if you want to be able to move other people. And Jamie's accomplished this. This book is a collection not just of current photography, her street art. She's got this really great knack of finding odd objects on the streets of Manhattan and photographing them.

(04:22):

Pictures of her daughter, of herself, of her mom. And combining that with a lot of childhood photos. She was also a really good diarist. She puts in this book some photographs of some of her diary entries that are really, really personal. It tackles self-love and self-worth, what it means to be a young woman in this world, a girl growing into adulthood, body issues. As a man reading this, it opened my eyes to a lot of things. It gave me something to think about, my own misogyny, and the patriarchy that I certainly profit from. This is a woman who gave her life to her kids and also has created a work of art, and I have a lot of respect for that. At the top of the conversation, I read a little piece of her book about motherhood and the choices that are thrust upon women and the expectations, and then we took the conversation from there. Let's get right to it. This is Jamie Riva.

(05:50):

I want to read a little something here from the beginning of your book, Girlhood, that I thought was actually interesting and I wanted to ask you where this was coming from and-

Jamie Riva (06:00):

Okay.

Charlie (06:01):

... to talk about it a little bit. You said last, but most definitely not least, if you exist in the world and identify as a woman regardless of physical, emotional or environmental conditions, you'll inevitably come face-to-face with the issue of motherhood and the absence or presence of it in your life. Then you go on to say, "My fascination lies in wondering how we might choose differently if we grew into womanhood without the effects of any outside perceptions of where our value lies as women. Would we still want the same things? Are we making decisions based on our honest desires or from years of programming and fear of being considered less than?" That's some rather deep shit.

Jamie Riva (06:52):

Yeah.

Charlie (06:54):

I think so. As a man reading that, it made me think, well, if someone is not having children and has had no desire to have children and has never felt pressure to have them. What do those words mean to you and the fact that you have two children and have been navigating an artistic life and motherhood simultaneously?

Jamie Riva (07:15):

Oh God, so much to say about this topic, but I guess I'll start with... Personally, I always wanted to be a mother, and I knew that for myself. What if you didn't want to have children? I just feel like a lot of women don't feel they have permission to say that or that they're judged if they don't want to, or even women that sometimes I just look at and I'm like, "I don't feel like you really want this." And I'll watch them go through struggles to try to make it happen. And sometimes I'm like, "Where is that coming from that you feel you need this in your life?" I think the spirit of the book is really just making sure we choose for ourselves based on what we really want if we were never born into this world, into this society where there's certain things expected of us.

Charlie (07:57):

But I think that most people that have children... Yes, you can qualify everything by saying I wouldn't trade a thing. I love my kids. It's all worth it. But really what I see when I talk to a lot of parents is they wish the fuck they didn't have them. "At the end of the day, my life would be better off." I don't know how many people are willing to even contemplate that because it sounds so horrible. It sounds like, "Oh my God, I don't love my kids." I think you can love your children and be blessed by them and still go, "God, man, what would my life have been like if I just didn't have to take care of somebody.

Jamie Riva (08:31):

Well, if the commitment when you're sitting there and you're like, "I want to have a baby." And you have that desire and whatever, you don't fast-forward to where I am 14 years later. What it looks like? That's what I always tell people when they're, "Should I, should I not?" You need to look at the big picture. This is a lifelong commitment. It's not all fun and games. I can't stand the conversations that's like, "I wouldn't change anything." Because I do think that's bullshit. I gave my life over to my kids. I want them in this world and they really are everything to me. They are my world, my heart, and my soul. But I'm going to say it's hard. I'm going to say I struggled with losing my identity with motherhood. I'm going to say it's the hardest thing ever. It's exhausting. It's really hard.

(09:17):

I just think we should be allowed to say that. I think it makes us better parents when we can freely express that and not have to feel ashamed about it and commiserate. It doesn't mean we don't love our kids. It doesn't mean we don't want them in the world and we don't want to be their parents. But it's really hard, really hard and exhausting.

Charlie (09:33):

Well, it's interesting that we're talking about motherhood when the title of the book-

Jamie Riva (09:37):

Lost and found, don't forget the lost and found.

Charlie (09:39):

... is Girlhood: Lost and Found. Talk to me about the lost and found.

Jamie Riva (09:45):

Okay. When it was all taking shape, I was photographing these objects in the street, which I do a lot. The street is like another person in our lives, or at least mine living in New York City. It's alive with so many things, but I do have a fascination for the lost object or inanimate objects or just anything that's been disregarded, whatever it is, and I really love to attach a story to it. I feel a story behind it. I'm interested in playing with beauty and finding beauty in what someone else would find disgusting and walk over. I am always shooting that way, anyway, but these objects in the book and in the project that aren't even in the book, I noticed this reaction that I was having to them and what I was seeing in them. I don't think other people would have.

(10:33):

I realized they were connected to something deeper inside of myself. At the same time I had a daughter now and I'm starting to photograph her and I'm thinking about raising her and I'm dealing with all these issues coming up for me and I'm aging. And what does that mean? I realized the way that I'm interacting with some of these objects was really close to the same feelings I was having as I was photographing my daughter and myself. The challenge was how was I going to blend them and make it make sense. And it really didn't make sense for a long time, and I really thought many times I was going to have to scrap this whole project, because it made sense to no one but me like, "How could garbage connect with these personal portraits?" In the beginning, I was interviewing women. Every woman would have this object connected to her story.

(11:16):

The lost and found is tying in the objects. What can we leave behind? What psychological garbage can we leave behind to get back to who we really were or what are we finding at the same time? It's about what we can leave behind emotionally, some of the objects. And some of the objects are like, "What's the new beauty I can find? What's the new perspective that I can find?" Some of these things that are smashed or cracked like aging and decaying, transforming. Maybe they're not considered traditionally beautiful, but I find so much beauty in them. Why can't I find that in myself as I'm aging? There's a lot in the lost and found with the objects. That's what that is about.

Charlie (11:59):

From the time you first had an idea for this book to its release, which is going to be coming out here in the end of August, how long did that take?

Jamie Riva (12:07):

Well, you only can wish and hope that the book is going to be made. I think I started shooting and just forming the project and trying to workshop it. Like I said, it was really hard to fine tune how we were going to make this all make sense because I was interviewing other women. I was shooting myself, I was shooting my daughter, I was shooting these objects and there was all kinds of things happening, but I've been shooting these types of things really since I was a kid.

Charlie (12:31):

What is it about the camera that appeals to you? Because there's a lot of ways to express yourself creatively, why the camera?

Jamie Riva (12:39):

It's hard for me to tell you why, because it's something that I fell in love with, I'm not kidding, as a child. I saved cereal box tops that you cut out from Kix or some cereal and mailed away to get what was a little disposable camera, because I was like, "Oh my God, I need this." I don't know, it was just something I've always loved. I have photo albums documenting my life as a child, which is why I have all this material for this book. I guess they came in handy, but I've been making albums. I would go around my neighborhood and go up in the tree and get the perspective and then tell the girl's story on the bike and ride it out. It's just something I loved doing. I don't know why. It's just the thing for me.

Charlie (13:21):

Did you have any reservations about using your daughter as the core source material, so to speak, other than yourself?

Jamie Riva (13:31):

I don't know. When she was younger, it was just so natural. She writes about this in her commentary at the end and she says, "When I was younger, I would've done anything for my mom, and I loved taking these pictures." And she did. I'm very sensitive to how I show her because I am really overprotective. There's a lot that I actually don't show. And whatever's shown, she's agreed to, and there was a lot that she didn't agree to. There's a lot that didn't make it in because she didn't want it. She's been involved in the conversation and now that she's a teenager, I hope she's going to come full circle as a woman and be really proud of it and thankful that she's in it. I was like, "Honey, tell the truth. This book is about speaking our truth. Wherever you are right now, as a 13-year-old." Which is what she was, "Let it fly. You don't need to rip me to shreds, but you can be honest." And she was.

(14:23):

Hopefully that comes through. I'm not sure if that answered your question. I'm very protective of her. There's so much that didn't make it in, but I feel like what did make it in is, I don't know, it's just an emotional side. I don't feel like I'm exploiting her. I don't think I put anything to... I guess that's up for debate, right? As a viewer, maybe you feel differently.

Charlie (14:45):

One of the things that I thought was very interesting about this book is that it is very vulnerable and it's very raw, and you've put some things in here that are very, very, personal, particularly the diary entries from your childhood. What I find interesting is, I think, culturally we look at beautiful people and we don't necessarily always consider that their inner life is very much related to ours and to everybody else in terms of insecurities, right? We can all just accept that you are intrinsically a beautiful human being, and you started modeling when you were young. If someone saw you walking down the street, they would appreciate the fact that you're beautiful. Now, what I find interesting is what was going on inside of you when you were young, and particularly this one quote where you said, "I'm hiding myself constantly in turmoil inside, hurting my body. Small tortures, hurting myself. It makes me so sad."

Jamie Riva (15:57):

It's making me sad to hear you read. I haven't heard anyone say that out loud, so I'm actually feeling emotional just hearing it, yeah. That one was actually when I was about 25. There are some that are younger. There's some from high school, but that one was around 24 or 25, I want to say, about those. Yeah.

Charlie (16:19):

And you were modeling at that point, professional modeling career? What was going on?

Jamie Riva (16:24):

It would be easy to just say, oh, modeling and acting, being in front of the camera puts the pressure on. It would be very easy to just put it all on that. The modeling business, the beauty industry and the pressure you had to feel to work just exacerbated things that I've never dealt with myself probably properly, as far as body image and self-destructive tendencies. I always say, if I was acting now, I would do it so different because I've done so much work on myself. I think-

Charlie (16:55):

But what were the self-destructive tendencies? What was the hurting my body?

Jamie Riva (16:59):

I would say then I was probably dealing with weight issues and needing to fit certain sizes for clothing when you're going for jobs and stuff, and just judging my body what you were seeing in the mirror was not reality, but also as being so much more harshly critiqued like you're not walking around like an average person in your clothes when you're literally going and having to fit certain sizes or get undressed in front of people like, "That's your job. How can you not look at your body and judge it and compare it to others and this and that?" You know what I mean? I think at that point in time, I was just torturing myself. I cared about my weight at that time. That's really probably mainly what it was, but I think it could have been anything.

(17:46):

I thought I was getting old then. That's why there's a quote in there about, "Oh, I can't enjoy my beauty. I'm aging." And I'm like, "Girl, you were 24. What the heck are you talking about?" It was more than the weight. I'll say the weight, because I think that's obvious. When you're comparing about modeling and so many women struggle with it and not being a model, I feel like everyone thinks about that unfortunately.

Charlie (18:07):

Well, you talk about your relationship to the scale and you have a photo of you there looking down on it.

Jamie Riva (18:14):

Yes, which is crazy.

Charlie (18:18):

Was it an obsession, or is it still now?

Jamie Riva (18:20):

That's why I say that because, thankfully, I am not concerned about my weight and I eat with pleasure and I am healthy. I care about being healthy, but I don't work out like crazy. I've found what works for me where I'm at peace and I'm never going to kill myself working out. I'm just not because I don't ever want to feel like that. That 25-year-old who was tortured and miserable. I don't want to live like that.

Charlie (18:45):

Small tortures. I'm curious what the small tortures are?

Jamie Riva (18:50):

You either would not eat and go to the gym like a crazy person, but then I would leave the gym and buy a bag of diet cookies and eat the whole thing because I was off that I went to the gym trying some crazy fasting thing, which never works, or, "Oh, let me take these diet pills and they'll help me stay up all night and work all... And get up." Whatever it was, you're just constantly in psychological torture of not being enough. What's funny is the moment that I accepted that, and it reached a point where I was like, "I don't want to feel like this. I'm hurting myself. I'm not happy every day and I'm torturing myself. I'm not enjoying my life." The moment I just surrendered to it and was like, "I'd rather be 20 pounds overweight than feel like this inside."

(19:41):

Literally, it was this moment of surrender and acceptance and giving myself that love. I'm telling you, just naturally I got into what my body was supposed to be because I was balanced. That's why I tell people who diet, in my opinion, if you're just balanced, you will just be in the body that you're supposed to be in because you're loving yourself and you want to eat healthy and you want to eat when you're hungry, and you want to move your body when you feel like it or rest when you don't. I got balanced and literally just lost the 20 pounds without doing anything. That's my little story there about that is when you surrender and you stop fighting the current and you just love yourself, it happens.

Charlie (20:27):

When did you begin to start to understand how the world saw you?

Jamie Riva (20:31):

I didn't know you were going to ask that question, but I was thinking about this like, "Why was I writing these types of things in a journal when I'm 8 or 11 and the stories that I would write and things like that. Why was I doing that? It's because I think the world responds to you a certain way and you learn that and you don't even realize you're doing it because you're just a child. And that's for everyone. That's for girls, that's for boys, that's for anyone who is struggling with their identity. Or as you come into this world and the world starts hitting you with what it thinks you should be or not be, and you feel that as a child and you just start slowly shifting to fit into what you think you're supposed to be.

(21:18):

I think for me as a girl, I guess, I'm speaking just from my experience being a girl, but this is universal. I don't know, I just think you just saw there's a power to it or you're treated a certain way or the other way around, you're not taken seriously or people don't think you're smart. There are all kinds of ways that people respond to you based on how you look. I guess, I was just always sensitive to that.

Charlie (21:40):

I don't know. It seems one of the big through lines in the book is your relationship to makeup, certainly with Luna and yourself, whether it's gray hair or stretch marks, lipstick. What is your relationship to makeup and how has it evolved? I would assume all women in some capacity have some sort of back and forth tug of war with fucking makeup.

Jamie Riva (22:07):

Are we doing it because we have to? There's a difference. I'm a creative person. I love expressing myself through makeup clothes. I actually enjoy that. What I don't like is when it becomes a trap, like you have to do it to keep up and to look good and to this and that. I want to do it from a place where I really mean it when I say I'm having fun and I feel good in this dress and with my whatever, and it makes me happy not because I have to please you or anyone else. I wanted to get to a place where... For me, taking pictures with no makeup, showing the gray hair, showing all that stuff, showing the hairy armpits and the hairy legs and all that, it's like, "Okay, I'm still beautiful with hairy legs, no makeup, wrinkles."

(22:50):

It's just a different type of beauty. And if I put it all out there, now I can circle back and feel like if I want to do it, I can do either one. I can do it because I want to, if that makes sense. Makeup in general right now is like the argument battlefield war of the house.

Charlie (23:07):

There are some really, not disturbing photos but thought-provoking photos, I guess I would say. That one of her, she's kind of looking, I can't tell if she's irritated. She's got the blue eyeliner. It's coming off her eye and she's got lipstick on and she just doesn't look pleased.

Jamie Riva (23:26):

Well, that photo I love. It's like when I talk about my mom and the crazy picture of my mom trying to put her mascara on, like the clown aspect. We're doing these beautification acts because we think that I really love capturing these acts that we're doing that are supposed to make us beautiful or youthful or whatever, and we just look crazy. What are you covering up? It just shows the absurdity of what we're doing. I hope what you're saying it came across because I really like catching those moments where we really like, "Look at how absurd this is that we're painting our faces." Literally we're painting our faces and I know a lot of people feel like they can't even step outside without doing that. I participate, but I also see it from a different perspective, and I'm looking at myself, "What are you doing? This is crazy."

Charlie (24:18):

You have two pictures that were juxtaposed next to each other. You have one, it's Luna. She's pointing this, I guess it's the eyeliner pencil and she's... I don't know, she just looks irritated and then I guess this is you.

Jamie Riva (24:32):

Oh, yes.

Charlie (24:32):

Is this a beauty pageant? Purple with the hat and... Listen, that was disturbing to me too.

Jamie Riva (24:37):

Oh yes, the dance recital.

Charlie (24:43):

Somewhat sexualized, which is what I think most pageants are, this kind of sexualization of children. I know putting those two next to each other, yeah, very thought-provoking. Talk to me about that.

Jamie Riva (24:56):

Well, the picture of Luna where she has the makeup and she's looking at her own face, that was really the first time that she was putting on makeup and she was playing around with makeup. I grabbed my camera and I'm like, "Oh my God, it's happening." I don't know, I just had a desire to shoot it and not in the cutesy, "Oh look, she's doing her makeup." Like in the, "Holy shit, this is happening." Like, "What am I supposed to do? How am I going to navigate this?" Because I want her to just be comfortable in herself. I don't want to see my daughter putting makeup on thinking that she needs to. I'm photographing it from that perspective and how am I going to do this?

(25:32):

Also she sees me putting on makeup. How can I tell her she doesn't need makeup and then she watches me do it. It's this really tricky thing of you have to start checking your own behavior. Anyway, she was putting on makeup, but I could see her looking at her face as you can see in the image or at least I hope you can see in the image. For me, it was like she's looking at her face like bewildered, and like, "This is so weird and crazy." That was fascinating to me. And then, yes, to see myself as a little girl all with makeup on like full-blown adult makeup, it's disturbing to me.

Charlie (26:07):

It was disturbing to me. I guess that was the point of putting those pictures together. It's unnerving.

Jamie Riva (26:16):

Also, just how history will repeat itself. Even though a lot of things I tried to change and keep her away from and be so mindful of it all just will come back anyway. It just does, so that's interesting.

Charlie (26:34):

You said something else that I thought was rather interesting and I want to get you to talk about this. You said, "Could I be that dark and heavy person again? Especially once I have a child. I can never walk the earth that dark creature." Right? What's that all about?

Jamie Riva (26:52):

I personally always had the desire to be a mother and to be pregnant, and I wanted that and I knew that, but I think because I... I'm a very emotional person. Even to this day being more evolved and grown up and having worked on myself, I'm still an emotional person and I have anxiety and I come from a long line of anxious people, and there are a lot of things that we all carry from our past and our past generation. I think knowing that I had those places in me where I could go dark. I guess you think when you're a mom, you're supposed to be perfect for these kids, or I couldn't be depressed if I have a kid. I couldn't be anxious and freaking out. I couldn't be yelling and angry like, "You're supposed to be a mother and give everything to the child and be this perfect role model."

(27:39):

I think what I'm questioning is like, "What if I'm there and I'm depressed? What if I'm there and I'm having my anxiety issues? What if I'm there and I'm..." Because that's who I am? I think when you start thinking about are you ready to have a child and are you ready to be a mother? Those were the things I was worried about.

Charlie (27:57):

You refer to yourself as a shadow artist. What's that? What's it mean to be a shadow artist?

Jamie Riva (28:04):

Okay, that's funny too. This is so funny. The questions you're asking me, they're like popping in my head because I did a quick scroll through the book right before we went on. I landed on that, I was like, "I wonder if Charlie's going to ask me about a shadow." I swear to God. That came from... Do you know The Artist's Way?

Charlie (28:20):

Of course.

Jamie Riva (28:21):

That is what flipped me from the self-destructive stand in my own way thing that we're talking about to not believing I deserved it or how could I ask for this? I had all those issues. Like, "Your life is good so you can't ask for more. You should just not expect abundance and expect to get that job and expect to get that role. How dare you? Because there's people struggling more than you." All of it about being afraid to fail because you're a perfectionist, you're not actually trying. That book really cracked me open and changed my course as an artist. It's a shame it was at the end of my acting time because really things started happening. I've got jobs. I followed that path. I did the work of that book and I recommend it to any artist. I really do. I'm going about my photography with a completely different mindset than the way I went after my acting career.

(29:15):

A lot of it is thanks to that book. The time when I made that, that was one of my headshots and I struggled a lot when I was acting. It was just felt like it was all about labeling and putting me in the box. It was the same with the mocking.

Charlie (29:28):

You were put in the box. You have that great photograph of those sides that just said hot brunette at the top.

Jamie Riva (29:36):

Right. Exactly.

Charlie (29:36):

And that's it, right? That talk about being stereotyped.

Jamie Riva (29:41):

Like, I mentioned with the modeling, I had issues joining this industry that you're trying to look at this and it's about your looks. I was being self-destructive with it. Anyway, at the time-

Charlie (29:51):

What do you mean by that? You were being self-destructive.

Jamie Riva (29:52):

I just wasn't being positive. I didn't have the same mindset of like once I embrace lime, "You're doing this, Jamie. Forget all that crap. You have a right to make money. You have a right to use your body and your looks. If you want to pay your rent right now, you do deserve that acting job. You do deserve it. It's okay. Expect success. It's okay." I had a weird thing around guilt of success just standing in my own way of success.

Charlie (30:21):

Now, that's a big thing. The guilt of success or the fear of success.

Jamie Riva (30:26):

Or the fear of failure like, "Yeah, I really went for this and I didn't make it." But if I just act like I don't care that much and whatever. All of it, it was like I just had my own shit to work out that I was completely standing in my own way of success and growth.

Charlie (30:41):

How did you come on the other side of that then? Because a lot of actors or artists that go through this, I think that's very universal, end up just giving in and quitting, giving up, going on to do something else with their life. But you didn't?

Jamie Riva (30:56):

I remember a shift with that book really. I really committed to it. I did all the morning pages. I did every assignment and it really shifted my mindset. I went to therapy because I was sick of those tiny tortures and torturing myself. I had a lot of stuff to break down about my self-worth and how that was shown to me growing up as well.

Charlie (31:21):

How was your self-worth shown to you? Tell me about that.

Jamie Riva (31:24):

Now I'm going to be discussing, I guess, my own parents who I love and love me deeply.

Charlie (31:30):

I tell my students, even if you have great parents, they still fuck you up.

Jamie Riva (31:34):

Of course. And I'm going to do the same to my kid.

Charlie (31:35):

Right. Exactly.

Jamie Riva (31:38):

Right. We're all humans. We come into parenthood as human beings. That's a little, that dark creature moment we talked about like, "You don't just become a mother or parent and all that stuff magically goes away." My parents did the best they could and are still doing the best they can, as am I. But I would say both of my parents did not take care of their bodies, let's say. I love sharing my story and I'm so open with it, but I'm talking about someone else's story. I feel like I have to be respectful in how I talk about it. I guess what I feel I can say is I definitely come and I actually come from a long line. A long line on both my parents' sides of addiction and alcoholism and all of that stuff. There is that running through.

(32:26):

Also, my own mother, she loves everyone so much, but she does not have self-love. She does not show that to herself. I tell her that to her face to this day. She will give and give to everyone else, but she does not take care of herself physically, mentally, emotionally. She'll just wear herself to the ground and she doesn't refuel herself in a healthy way with food definitely, as well as other things. I think I saw a lot of things and I just...

Charlie (32:56):

Well, we take after the patterns we see. Makes sense. You have two really lovely letters that you write about your body, and I was wondering if you could read the love letter to my stretch marks.

Jamie Riva (33:16):

Oh my gosh. Okay. I've got to pull it up here. Okay. A love letter to my stretch marks. "Although the eyes of the world may not see you the same, I find the way your markings gently trace the curves of my body to be incredibly sexy. Intimate illustrations, your sensuous grip on my hips, a reminder of the growth and resilience I'm capable of throughout my ever transforming lifetime spent in this body. Thank you for changing shape with me as my hips and life expanded to make room for the new humans I would bring into this world, moving with me during the joy it took to make them and the agony it took to birth them. You are a map of the ups and downs of physical and emotional weight. Tiny trails embedded with memories of pain and pleasure collected along the way. I think you're beautiful, and I promise not to erase you or the stories you have to tell."

Charlie (34:11):

You're opponent.

Jamie Riva (34:14):

I feel emotional reading it. I don't read it out loud. I haven't read it in a while.

Charlie (34:21):

It's one thing to read it. It's another thing to write it. It's another thing to speak it.

Jamie Riva (34:24):

Yeah, it's true.

Charlie (34:28):

Well, what was it like to say that out loud?

Jamie Riva (34:31):

I feel emotional. Even now, even still with doing this work and now talking about it, it's always good to... It grounded me back into why I'm doing all of this and go back to those moments of just loving yourself because I didn't always, and even now, I still sometimes want to beat myself up. This work will always bring me back to what actually matters and that's why I do it, because I still might get swept up in whatever it is, but when I read that, I remember why I'm doing it.

Charlie (35:10):

Yeah, but there's something more specific about saying, "You know what? I'm going to write about some of my most stark private physical insecurities." As it pertains to aging, what was the impetus behind writing a love letter to those parts of yourself, your spider veins and your stretch mark?

Jamie Riva (35:33):

I really am very passionate about changing the perspective of beauty because I really mean what I say. I know it probably doesn't make sense, but really when I'm in the mirror and I walk by and I see the way the lines go, I'm a visual person. I'm like, "Ooh, yeah." I really actually mean it. I don't feel like that about every part of my aging body. I think that if I can look at myself like that on something that the world sees as a flaw, and hopefully I can inspire someone else to do the same. I hope that's what will happen. I really find beauty in things that are not necessarily traditionally considered beautiful, and if I can just find a way to express that, it's just what I like to do. I'm passionate about that. I really like shifting perspective and I really hope to do that with this book about aging and beauty and aging and naturally aging and garbage on the street, all of it. I really want to shift perspectives and what true beauty actually is, what that means.

Charlie (36:51):

Well, I know that you touched upon this, your acting career. You trained, you took acting training and you pursued it. What do you take away from your time pursuing that art?

Jamie Riva (37:10):

So much. So much. It really...

Charlie (37:14):

Now, did you think you were going to be an actor? I assume you were like, "This is what I want to do. I'm going to train and I'm going [inaudible 00:37:19]."

Jamie Riva (37:18):

I did. This was always my plan, and, I guess, I followed through. I studied photography, which I loved. I also always did acting when I was younger, but I was always back and forth between the two. When I graduated and photography was turning digital, I was like, "I got to do this. It's now or never with the acting thing." I think in my mind I thought, "Well, I can only do this when I'm young and before I become a mom." Literally that's what I was thinking. Like, "I'm going to do the acting until I become a mom, and then I'll be too old anyway." As you know, for an older woman in acting, it's like, "Oh, whatever." It was like that. Then my plan was always, "Once I had kids, I would go back to photography."

(38:00):

I always knew I was going to go back to photography, but of course, I took acting seriously, and of course, the more you're studying it and pursuing it, it's like that carrot dangling too. Every time you think, "Oh, this will be enough." Because the business of acting was not good for me. It's horrible, and that has helped me with now coming out as a photographer and artist in a different way because nothing will be as hard I feel as trying to make it as an actor, and I've told you this before, I'm not afraid. I will go out and show it and do it because there's no amount of rejection I will get that you get from auditioning. It really does prepare you in a way. I'm thankful for that. And like I said, I would've done acting really differently if I was doing it now as a 45-year-old woman than a 25-year-old woman.

(38:50):

I take the lessons from it. I take the thick skin and then not taking it personal from it, because you have to do that in acting, and it's really hard not to because we're emotional creatures. You're an actor because you're an emotional creature, but then you're supposed to go out in the business and say, "Well, it's not about me." Like I just wasn't tall enough, right? I didn't have the right hair. It's not about my spirit and my soul and the emotion I put. It's so weird. We're supposed to live as these emotional spirits and then go in the business and not feel it and take it personal. It's a really tough thing to do as an actor.

Charlie (39:23):

What went on in that period where you said, "You know what? I'm done with this. This is not going to be the path that I want.

Jamie Riva (39:30):

Babies.

Charlie (39:30):

Babies?

Jamie Riva (39:34):

Have babies. Then that whole life and schedule was just too hard at the time because, well, first of all, I wanted to be with my children and I wanted to be home with my babies, and I'm thankful that I was able to do that. I know not everyone has that opportunity, so I don't take that lightly. That was a choice. It was a hard choice because then when I was there doing it, I had anxiety like, "Oh, how can I be a feminist? I'm a stay-at-home mom." Then that was eating at me. It's like I couldn't be peaceful even with that. Once I was there, even though I knew that's what I wanted, and I knew they would get old and they would go to school and I could go back to a career. Even in it, I felt like I couldn't enjoy being in it because the world was judging me like, "How could I call myself a feminist if I didn't have a..." Then the working woman has the guilt that she's not home with the kids. That's a whole 'nother can of worms that I probably just cracked open.

Charlie (40:21):

That's very interesting though. You're a stay-at-home mom. You're working your ass off in that, but yet you're saying to yourself, "How can I be a feminist and advocate for that?" Did you think you were doing something wrong or that you were being disloyal or a fraud?

Jamie Riva (40:40):

A fraud? No, because that was it. I wanted to be with my children and that was it. But yes, in my eyes, I was somebody who was... It's the judgment. It's the judgment. It's external judgment, like in my heart, I wanted to take care of my kids, and I am glad that I did that, and I wanted to be one-on-one with them. I think that I sacrificed a lot. I think I lost myself a lot. There's another piece to that, that looking back, I should have done more things for myself as a creative, as a human and just as an independent woman in the world, because I did lose myself in it. I think I could have had more balance, but I don't regret it. But yes, it's a judgment and maybe that's just me. Maybe someone else wouldn't be that way. And this is how I so harshly judge.

Charlie (41:30):

I don't know. It seems like a universal thing [inaudible 00:41:35].

Jamie Riva (41:34):

Yeah. I think it's almost, I don't want to say lose-lose because that's negative, and I don't like to be negative, but it is as a woman, because the women who are out working, they have the guilt that they're not home with their children. The women who are home with their children, at least I did. We feel like, "Oh, they're looking down on us because we're not working or we're depending on our man." Or this and that, that way of thought. Instead of like, "Wow, actually, I just really care about this life that I brought in the world and I want to make sure that they're good and I want to do everything for them." I don't feel like it's valued all the time. It depends who you're talking to, I suppose, right? And then you have the woman who tries to do both and feels like she's failing at both because she's not a 100% with the kid. She's not a 100% in her career, and she's doing both things mediocre. It's just like a lose-lose all the way around in a way.

Charlie (42:26):

I thought one of the things that make the book particularly special are the number of family and friends that you have that write very eloquently. I'm just curious, reading the letter from your mom, the letter from your aunt, what that experience was like to try to take that in and what it meant to you? Not just them, but also your good friends, your mentors, the people that have had such a profound impact on you, like Eleanor. It wasn't very [inaudible 00:43:04] read their words.

Jamie Riva (43:04):

Oh my God. I could cry just even thinking about it. Literally the feeling of your heart bursting is how I felt every time someone agreed to write and when I would read it. I have so much gratitude that people wanted to be involved with the project that I have them in my life and whatever capacity that they are and that they cared about this. Also, just join forces. The reason I wanted to even do that is I just really wanted to make it clear it's not just my perspective or somebody who was a model. You know what I mean? It affects us all. It doesn't matter if you're in construction or if you're an actor. It affects us all. It doesn't matter... I have someone who's 81 in there and then you've got the teens. I hope there was power in that and also just would help connect more hearts and if we all just come in as this team together and hopefully that will spread out.

Charlie (43:59):

It was beautiful. I loved reading all of that. I also found it interesting that you chose one male to include in the book, your son, Stone. What made you decide to slip him in there?

Jamie Riva (44:13):

Well, come on, I had to. It's my baby. That's my baby. I care a lot about including men in these conversations and the male perspective is important. I hope that men will read it and have a better understanding. All the comments I get, and I get a lot about different topics, and that's what it's about for me is the conversations and people talking, connecting. That's what it's about. But when I hear from the men, like dads who say, "I never thought about this for my daughter." Or, "I'm getting the book because of my daughter." Or whatever, that is everything to me because we have to understand each other and change can't happen unless we're all on board with it. That warms my heart so much. I care a lot about the male perspective and I hope that they'll read it and care.

(45:09):

My son, it's important to me to raise a man who is thoughtful of these things and aware of these things as well. We talk about all this from his side as well as a boy. No, I'm very sensitive to what he goes through as a boy and the pressures that he feels, it's different than what we go through. And I've said to him many times like, "Whatever you're going through as a boy is any less important. It's just I was born a girl. I identify as a girl and this is my experience and I'm sharing it." But it is all about his sister. I definitely had to make sure he was included in there and his little pictures in there. He was making fun of me putting on makeup. Luckily he got in there and he's so sweet and he's really thoughtful, and I just think it's important that we had to get a little bit of the boyhood in there.

Charlie (46:02):

Reading your mom's letter, I just found it interesting that one of the most important things for your mom, and she writes about it extensively in that letter to you is the impact of your scoliosis, and watching you go through that and wearing a back brace. Can you just talk about what that experience was and why you didn't talk?

Jamie Riva (46:23):

Well, okay, the funny thing about that is at the very beginning... She brought it up to me because really she went through a lot. Most people don't know that about me. She was like, "Are you going to talk about the brace? How are you...?" I said, "It's so big of a thing, it's like its own other thing." Now, I don't know if that was just part of me at the time trying to get the book together. It was a massive amount of work and photos. For me to try to cover that, it felt like it was too much because it was such a big thing, and it was really different than all these other things I was trying to make sense of and make work. It felt like I was going to add a whole other thing, and maybe it took away from the other stuff.

(47:07):

I felt like it was so different that it would take away from it. I said, "No, we're going to just leave it out. We're going to just make it about what it is about and we'll just leave that out." But then as it got to the end of the book, I realized... I was sharing these journals and I'm reading my own words. I'm like, "People are going to read these things about the tiny tortures and how I could repeat torture in my life and hurt my body because my body was hurt and in pain for four years." I couldn't breathe. I couldn't move. It was painful. I had everything. My skin became a different texture. I was tortured. It was a torture device, that thing. It was repeating in my adulthood and I was finding ways to repeat hurting my body because it felt like home in a way and what my body deserved and should be.

(47:55):

I felt like in the end I'm like, "Are people going to read all this stuff about me having issues with my body and just think it's about because I was a model." Yes, that definitely messed with my head psychologically and things like that, but it was so much more than that, and that's what I meant earlier when I said I came into modeling and acting carrying my own stuff about body image, and that's what it was. At the end of it, I felt like, Damn, I can't leave this out." My parents were the ones who really brought it up to me, and they were like, "Talk about this darkness, and people are going to wonder, what is all this?"

(48:30):

I felt in the end, it had to be included. I felt that was the place to include it. I felt like it could come from my mother to try to bring it in with photos. First of all, there was no time for, and there was just... I didn't have a way to bring it in any other way I felt that would do it justice. I didn't want to make it about that, because I felt like it might change everything in the book. You know what I mean? That we had already streamlined and made it about, but I did feel like it had to be addressed. That's how we worked it in.

Charlie (49:01):

Absolutely. It all goes back to that. I find it so fascinating. This is, I'm sure, what therapy does. It makes you connect things. To say to yourself, "I was in this torture device. I was in pain for so long that when I got into my 20s, that just seemed to be the comfortable thing to do. Torture myself.

Jamie Riva (49:21):

Like, "How could my body feel good? And how could my body be worthy when it wasn't?" You know what I mean? I learned at a young age, it wasn't normal, wasn't the right shape, and I was hiding who I was. There was all that stuff. There's so much of it there. I realized in the very final hour that it had to be in there to the point. My copywriter and my designer were like, "What do you mean you're changing the essay?" I'm like, "It just has to be." That was actually a last minute addition that maybe it was just too much for me in the beginning to wrap my head around, but at the end, I was in a panic like, "Well, I'm not telling the whole story if I don't tell it."

Charlie (50:05):

No, I think that was the right thing to do. I'm glad you did it. It just adds more context and more... It just reveals more.

Jamie Riva (50:13):

I appreciate that you read it, and I actually appreciate hearing that a lot because it is sensitive to me and the way it's written. I'm like, "I don't know if people really understand what that experience was." Or if they hear a back brace and they think it's like... When you strap on your wrist brace and it's no big deal. No, that's not what this was. I am sensitive about it like, "Are people going to get it?" Or they're going to be like, "Why is she talking about this?" I appreciate hearing that from you.

Charlie (50:37):

No, they'll get it. I think it has particular weight because it's coming from your mother. Was there ever any point where you thought, "This is too personal. What am I doing?"

Jamie Riva (50:48):

The whole book or that story?

Charlie (50:50):

Yeah no, the whole book. The whole thing.

Jamie Riva (50:52):

Of course.

Charlie (50:56):

I tell my students all the time, "If you're not willing to put your soul on the line, if you're a serious artist, you're going to risk something very, very, very personal and that is going to scare the hell out of you." Were there moments where you're like, "Nah, this is [inaudible 00:51:08].

Jamie Riva (51:08):

No, I was never like, "I'm not going to do it." But I definitely have been on an emotional roller coaster with it, and every once in a while... Those are the artists that I respect that put it all out there, tell the truth, show it all. That's how we connect. That's how we heal. That is what life is about for me. And it's like, "Let's tell our stories." Those are the artists I respect. If I ever got a little nervous about it, I would turn to those artists, one of which is Eleanor, who wrote the forward, who photographs that way, and just remember like, "No, this is what you care about. This is why you're here." I'm alive on this planet for these types of things, not to have some perfect image. "Hear the story. Let's share our stories." To me, that's what life is about, connecting and loving and healing each other.

Charlie (52:00):

Well, I think it's a courageous piece of art. I really do. I have tremendous amount of respect for you, and congratulations.

Jamie Riva (52:12):

Thank you Charlie.

Charlie (52:12):

How do you feel about the fact that you're on the cusp of this coming into the world? [inaudible 00:52:18].

Jamie Riva (52:17):

Oh my God. It's literally like I've been birthing a baby. I've been in labor for sure. Now, I just can't wait to physically hold it in my hands in three weeks. And I just hope...

Charlie (52:36):

Where can people get this when it comes out? Get it?

Jamie Riva (52:38):

Well, you can purchase it on Daylight Books website, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. If you just Google Girlhood: Lost and Found, many options will pop up. You can also get signed copies from me directly from my website, which is jamierivaphotography.com. If you want to signed copy, you can do that.

Charlie (52:56):

Well, we've already been talking over an hour.

Jamie Riva (52:58):

Oh my gosh.

Charlie (52:59):

But I could talk to you longer. I feel like we should wrap this up.

Jamie Riva (53:03):

Okay.

Charlie (53:05):

We'll end on this. You have been able to have an artistic career, an artistic life. You're raising two spectacular children. It's a path that I think can be very encouraging to young people who are looking to have a creative life, but also want more than just that. What do you say to people that think, "Oh, it's one or the other. I can't do both." Or, "I can't have both." When it comes to living a creative life, what's some advice you would like to share?

Jamie Riva (53:47):

Well, living a creative life, you have to get creative and you have to be willing to be flexible. Sometimes you might have to do one and not the other, and just trust that you'll be able to come back to it when it's right for you. I think there's no one path. We're all different people, and when we start looking at what other people are doing, look to it for inspiration. Find the people that you connect with that inspire, that's great, but don't do the whole comparison thing. Trust where you are is where you need to be if you're really listening to yourself and just don't doubt that. Where you are is okay, and it's not always perfect, and it's not supposed to look perfect and be forgiving and understanding of that.

Charlie (54:36):

Well, my fellow daydreamers, thank you for sticking around and keeping that phone in your pocket. Please get a copy of Girlhood: Lost and Found. It is available everywhere as of September 26th. If you've got a few seconds, go to iTunes, leave a review of the show. I'd really appreciate that. Spread the word, tell your friends. You can go to https://www.creatingbehaviorpodcast.com Go to the contact page, hit that red button. I use SpeakPipe. You can leave me a message, ask a question, leave some thoughts. You can also go to https://www.maggieflaniganstudio.com if you are interested in training with me in my New York City studio, and you can follow me on Instagram at @maggieflaniganstudio @creatingbehavior. Lawrence Trailer, thank you for the music, my man, my friends. You never know how your artistic career is going to pan out. Just keep playing full out with yourself. Stay resilient and don't ever settle for your second best. My name is Charlie Sandlan. Peace (singing)