Pick, Place, Podcast
The nitty gritty details on solder
We're back! In this episode we talk about what we were busy doing on our "break", the different types and formats that solder comes in, and some unfortunate consequences that sometimes occur while eating chips.
pickplacepodcast.com
We're back! In this episode we talk about what we were busy doing on our "break", the different types and formats that solder comes in, and some unfortunate consequences that sometimes occur while eating chips.
pickplacepodcast.com
Welcome to the pick place podcast to show where we talk about electronics, manufacturing and everything related to getting the circuit board into the world. This is Chris Denny with Worthington.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:And this is Melissa Hough with CircuitHub
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Welcome back, Melissa.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:welcome back, Chris. It has been a while.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:long time. Seriously. I'm trying to remember. Like
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:when's the last time I recorded probably probably at the beginning of June. Wow. So if we sound silly, then it's just, cuz we're out of practice. Well, you're not out of practice.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I am not outta practice. Yeah. Yeah, I totally unrelated, but thank you for the opportunity for a plug. I . I started a completely unrelated podcast about my favorite American football team. The New York giants called the little giant podcast. It's very exciting for me. but has nothing to do with electronics manufacturing.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah, but I'm sure we have some giants fans out there that would like to take a listen and like the sound of your voice. So we'll leave a link in the show notes for anyone who is interested.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah. Yeah. The, the first episode we did was just like a like what is the NFL? Who are the New York giants and, and getting ready for the preseason. Cuz sometimes people might want to be interested. Like I thought about it. Like if you're, if you're like a father and you have a young daughter who doesn't really understand the NFL and something and, but like you want her to watch the game with you? Like you could. Bring her up to speed with this kind of stuff. I don't
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:a good point then I should definitely listen to your podcast.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Well, thank you,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:And then maybe I'll become a fan. Maybe I'll be, maybe I'll be converted.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:trouble is you live in new England. So it's gonna be difficult to be a New York giants fan in new England. It has been a difficult time, but anyway, this is not the New York giants podcast. You can find that on apple podcast, this is the pick place podcast where we talk about pick place things. So what's new with you, Melissa. Anything new besides recording podcast, unrelated to electronics.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah. So we mentioned that when we were away, we were both doing important things. And one of the things I was doing was getting married. So thank you. Yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:exciting. I can say it's very exciting as a 17 year long married man. It's wonderful. And I wish you 17 plus years of, of bliss.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Well, thank you very much. It has been as of yesterday, one month for me. So
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:That's awesome. Super cool. Well happy one month anniversary and a day, one month and a day anniversary. On on the business side, we're very excited. Our, our pick and place machines have shipped. and actually literally I was tracking the ships this morning. You, you can cuz we got the, we got like the paperwork from Fuji that tells us what boats they're
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Mm, mm-hmm
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:boats and you can literally see 'em on a map and where they are . So one of them is in the port of Los Angeles getting unloaded now and the other, they had to split up the shipments. And then the other one just left Tokyo this morning.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Interesting.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:probably, yeah, it'll probably be a while before it gets to LA. And what we're gonna do is we're actually gonna hold those machines in, at our rigging facility until the second shipment arrives. Yeah. So it's gonna be, it's gonna be Septe late September probably before we see these guys, but and then God help us, Melissa. If I find time to record a pick place podcast during when those machines get here, I'll be impressed.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Maybe I'll just come over and record the whole process.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:That'd be fun.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah. And then we
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Oh, we, we absolutely should plan on that. When, when the riggers are bringing them in, we gotta shoot some video. I did that when most of the time when we have the riggers bring equipment in, I, I shoot video of it, but you have a much nicer camera than ours. So if you can find time to do that, that'd be sick.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Mm-hmm yeah. And then just like follow you around. Just follow you around every day and do like a documentary style. Like
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:all. yeah, so that's exciting. But also during during both of our time away from recording you you did something far more important than I did, but what I did is I visited aim, which gosh, I can't think of what aim stands for at the moment. A I am. It's like,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:AOL instant message.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:That's right. It stands for AOL instant messenger. They are well, so in, in our industry, they're a solder supplier which kind of gets us to today's topic. Today's topic. If you've looked at your podcast app is about solder and it's fresh on the brain from my trip to, to aim. They have a humongous facility in Montreal. I mean, Massive massive, massive, massive. The building alone is two kilometers long. just, just the building, not to mention their property. And then they have this enormous asphalt yard with just, just the biggest possible machines you've ever seen in your life. Moving material around because in addition to being a solder manufac, They are also a recycler they're actually
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Hmm.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I think they're probably more well known as a recycler than they are as a solder manufacturer. We know them very well because they're solder manufacturer, obviously, cuz that's the world we live in every day. But like when I was my wife and I went to Quebec city for a, like a little anniversary trip and then, and then we headed to Montreal for the formula one race and, and while we were there, I visited aim. But while we were in Quebec city, I saw. Like things branded aim, like recycling containers with yeah. With their brand on it. So , I don't know if they do trash as well, but any, they definitely do recycling for sure. And it was so cool to see cuz they would, they like basically their business model. So they have two businesses, they have the soldering business and then they have the recycling business. and the recycling business is basically taking in a bunch of material from all over Canada, presumably United States and elsewhere, and figuring out what to do with it. So for example, when a car comes in a crushed car, there's a lot of good material in there to be reclaimed. When circuit boards come in, there's a lot of good material in there to be reclaimed when they showed me this, this huge I don't know what to call it. Container of some kind full of Romax wire. Are, are you familiar with what? I mean when I say RO
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:mm-hmm. I don't think so. No.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:So yeah, I, I think that's sort of like saying a bandaid, you know, a bandaid is a bandage Romax is a brand, but it's, it's basically like the household wiring. So it's like what you would wire outlets in your lights and everything in your house. But for whatever reason, everybody just kind of calls it Romex wire or maybe. Maybe just everybody I know. And calls Romex wire anyway all this like completely unused, like on spools, rom X wire, and I'm like, wait, hang it, hang on a second. How come you're recycling this? Because this is totally brand new material. He goes, yeah, but you gotta understand. They may, they may have been building say they're building a government building and they get a contract from the government to build this building. The, the contractor. And then they need to buy a bunch of material for that. Well, they, they're not allowed to reuse any of that material because it's under government contract. Like that's part of the contract. Is that yeah, it's just for this project. So when they're done with it, they have to get rid of it. They can't use it for any other projects.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:that's silly.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:silly. Absolutely silly, just insane. And, and I don't know if this is a Canada thing. I don't know if this is an American thing. I, you know, I,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:So the, so they have to take perfectly good wire and then recycle it into what, like other wires, like,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:they they'll send it. So they, what they do is they don't do the refining there. They sort all of the material there. So then they're like, this is grade such and such copper. This is another grade of copper. This is a grade of aluminum, a different grade of aluminum and on and on. And yeah, so that's like the best of the best, right? That's the highest grade copper, because it's basically already perfectly refined and they get big money for it. It's already. Yeah. I don't know. It, it blew my mind and
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:like a waste of someone's
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:right. Trust me. And the guide given me the tour, like totally agreed. He's like, I know, I know. We all know. We all know it was really funny.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Goodness.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:yeah, so they but it was cool. Like you saw these huge cubes of, of aluminum cans. Right. And they have this machine to create these cubes. So they. Pour all the material into this giant giant, I can't, I cannot express to you how huge these things were. Like, I felt like, like a cartoon mouse in this, in this factory, it was just, everything was just so huge. And But they have these huge machines. So it goes on this conveyor belt and it goes up this track and then it gets, you know, shaken down and crushed in, into these cubes and then put onto a skid and they move those skids around and they stack 'em up and they can only stack 'em so high and yada yada, yada. But it was, I mean, it was, I was a little kid in a candy store. I absolutely, I was like so excited. So one of the things that was super. They reclaim aircraft parts and reclaiming aircraft parts is apparently insanely rigorous. And what I mean by that is you have like, there's all okay. Flying an airplane is in is, is incredibly dangerous if it were not for enormous amounts of regulation. So for example, if, if you have a jet engine on a. That jet engine, the manufacturer will tell you it needs to be rebuilt. I don't know, every 10,000 hours, I don't know what the number is. Let's just say it's 10,000 hours. You need to, you need to fully rebuild that jet engine, according to our recommendations with these materials, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, you might not be able to afford to rebuild a jet engine, say you're a discount airline falling on hard times, or you. You know, you're a private 7 37 owner. They do exist and you don't wanna spend all that money on rebuilding your well, if you can find some, you know, perfectly usable secondhand aircraft parts, then you can reuse that and get your plane up and running again. But imagine how insanely dangerous that is. Think about that. So there is all there's enormous numbers of checks and balances to make sure that those aircraft parts end. Destroyed
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Oh yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:so that they can never be reused. Exactly. So they have all these special programs to make sure that they get those aircraft parts and they destroy them appropriately. So the manufacturer of, you know, say your GE of the world, cuz GE is a big jet engine supplier. They have all these, like when you destroy this part, this is how you have to destroy it. You can't. Bend it, you have to destroy it in this very specific way, which renders it completely unusable and can never even be repaired. Right. Cause if you were to destroy it insufficiently, then somebody could try to repair it and reuse it.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Mm-hmm
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I was like, this is CRA, this is so cool. This is so cool, but so crazy that that kind of a thing exists, but I'm glad it does because flying is incredibly safe because of all these kinds of decisions, you know? What just, what a cool trip. I, I absolutely loved it, but that was the recycling side, which has nothing to do with electronics manufacturing, but I was there for the electronic side, of course. That was just a bonus, but they took me through their their factory where they make their solder bar. They make their solder paste and their solder wire. And it was very, very busy. And, you know, I'm, I'm not exactly a big buyer of materials, so it's not like they're you know, rolling out the red carpet for me, it was very nice. I got to meet the president of the company. He was, he was very cordial and I got to meet his, you know, director of manufacturing, whose name I can't think of at the. They were excellent. It wasn't like they were giving me the B team or anything. They, but obviously these are important people with important things to get done and I didn't wanna abuse their time. So, I tried to be considerate of that, but we went through this tour pretty quickly. So a lot of it is a little hazy. And even though I wrote down some notes, it's it. I don't have a lot of it, but suffice it to say. I'll, I'll touch on just a couple points of some of the things I saw, they, when they make alloy, they have, I mean, the guy, the suits, these guys wear like the, the protective gear they wear is crazy. And they've got these like breathing apparatus because it's, you know, you breathe this stuff all day. It can be pretty dangerous, but you know, they're, they're blending these alloys together and weighing everything so carefully and they have a, they have like a. They have like work orders with very specific instructions of how to blend these things together. Cuz they, when you make these alloys, some of these alloys have tiny, tiny, tiny amounts of certain materials. And so they can't, you know, overuse or underuse that material has to be exactly. Right. And then they, they brought me to the, the lab, sorry, forgive me. I'm using the term alloy, but maybe not everybody knows what I mean by an alloy. And Allo is basically taking raw elements and blending them together to create a product. And that's, that's an alloy, so you're taking tin and you're taking silver and you're taking copper, these, these raw elements and you're, and you're putting those together and you're creating a new metal effectively. And, and that's what I mean by an ally. But they took me to their lab where they, they basically test all this stuff. And it was like, I felt like it was in a movie theater or, or you're not a, a movie set, a movie set. Cause it was like, I like people in lab coats and goggles and beakers and, and crazy all these instruments. And I was like, I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is insane. And they're explaining to me like what they do and how they do it. And, and it like all event went way over my head. I did not understand what they were telling me, but , but suffice it to say that the, what I took from it was basically that lab's purpose is to make sure that when they ship something, it is absolutely exactly what they say. It should be on their data sheet. In other words, they're ver so they're making the material and then they're verifying. It was made. Yeah. Quality control. Exactly. It was just so cool and all the checks and balances they have, like, so incoming material gets tested and then they create the alloy and then they test it again and they cross section it to make sure it's well homogenized because you might have too much tin over here, not enough copper over there and you know, all that kind of stuff. It. So cool. I, I think there's such a great, there's such a great organization. I can't say enough good things about them. They're not our only sold supplier far from it. We, we have a number of different solder suppliers, but they are an important one. And yeah, just a what an awesome time. I love that so much. and I was like, can I take pictures? And he's like, absolutely not. He's like, no way not. You cannot even he's like, I shouldn't even let you in here with your.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Well,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah. So unfortunately, no pictures, no video. I, but I've got, I've got it burned into my brain. It was, it was awesome. I know we do have some, yeah, maybe I know I'm a terrible artist. I know we do have some some listeners in the Canada area. If they can make their way over to aim for a tour, I highly recommend
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Is it open to just to anyone that's interested or.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I, I talked to the sales rep, my, my local sales rep, and he made the connection with his local office. They have an office in Rhode Island and then they made the connection with the headquarters in Montreal. And they welcomed me. It was, it was very, very nice. They really enjoyed it. And they offered me like, All kinds of food. They're like we have croissants and we have bagels. And we, I was like, I'm like very kind of you, but I don't wanna abuse this opportunity. I'll take a coffee. You know, I think I can, I think I can accept the coffee. So, it was great.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah. Out of curiosity, which came first, the recycling or the solder
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I believe, I believe the recycling came first. It's a third gen. It's still a privately held company. Third generat. And I believe the the second generation owner does all the recycling and his son third generation does all of the solder stuff. Yeah. It's have that wrong, but I'm that, that's what I took from it.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah. Do you think they use the stuff that they get from the recycling? Well, not directly, but
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah. Not directly because I don't know. I think they do like some refining there. But not like, I think most of it is sent to like a big boy refiner. Not,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:you know, I think they do some small stuff. Some maybe, maybe they like just do the tin or something. I, I'm not sure. I, I was a little hazy on that, but And yeah, I can't, like I said, I can't remember. I didn't get a chance to really take down quite enough notes. And like I was sitting in my car taking down some notes, but even then you forget a lot from what you, from what you saw, because I didn't want to bring up cause they were nervous about me taking pictures. So I didn't wanna bring my phone out as they're giving me this tour and start typing things down and have somebody see it and they, I didn't wanna get them in trouble, you know, so apologies for being a little hazy on that. But yeah, it was, it was great. And. I would love to go back and like, , I'm not going to though. I mean, I feel bad doing it as that is. I, I did a tour of Kester many years ago. I was probably like 25 or so. And that was, that was pretty interesting too, but it wasn't nearly as big as aim because they didn't do have a recycling center, but I got to see like the machines they used to make the wires and these machines were like over a hundred years old. It was crazy. Aim has newer machines. Let's put it that way. And it was super cool how they basically, they would put these like, Rods into the machine for lack of a better term. And then they would pull on them and draw them through this dye to, to make 'em thinner and thinner and thinner. And they'd progressively get them thinner and thinner and thinner. And then they somehow like would inject flux. I kept asking how that works and, and they were like, this is what does it right here. And I'm looking at it. I'm like, yeah, I still don't get it. So I'm hoping to maybe have a representative from Amon in the future. I've I've been talking to them about getting them on for an episode, and maybe we can talk more about the intricacies of how it is that they do what they do, be a lot of fun. But let's get into some more intricacies. Shall we let's talk about the actual soda that we use to make the circuit boards.. Yeah. So solder basically is an alloy of these elements. Like we were talking about earlier, blending things together to create different materials that have different properties. Trying to target specific applications. Now, certainly there are many, many dozens, perhaps even hundreds of different Allos out in the world, but there's really, there's really sort of like three big ones used in electronics manufacturing. The biggest used to be. What's known as 63, 37. That's sort of shorthand for saying 63%, 10 and 37% led. That was by far the most common Ella used for decades and decades and decades. It is it is a great alloy, super reliable, but it has this nasty side effect of being incredibly dangerous and poisonous because I was led in it
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:so wisely humans recognize this and said, you know, we should probably try to get rid of the lead yeah. So, so it's been, the ROHS initiative was introduced couple decades ago. Spearheaded, I think largely by the European union. And so alloys were developed two, two very popular. There was a, I mean, there were tons and I, I don't know, dozens or even hundreds of alloys tried out. And then two sort of conquered the industry. This one alloy called SAC 3 0 5, which again is shorthand for 96.5%, tin 3% silver. Half a percent copper. That's where the sack 3 0 5. So 3.0, or maybe just 3%. Yeah, I think that's what it's supposed to SAC is the tin silver copper, cuz a is AU is shorthand for silver. I believe. S is SN and C is C U for copper, the elemental Symbols. Right? So SS SAC, tin, silver, copper. That's where that shorthand comes from. And then three, 3% silver. And then, oh, five, 0.5% copper. That's that's where the shorthand sack 3 0 5 comes from. That is by far the most popular alloy for. Led free Roja compliant, soldering. It is used extensively for both surface Mount and through hole everywhere. However, that 3% silver, very, very expensive. Silver is very expensive. much, much more expensive than tin and copper and everything else. So. Another product hit the hit the market made in Japan by a company called neon superior. They, they patented this alloy that they called SN 100 C and the SN 100 comes from the fact that it's like almost pure tiin it's 99. Technically it is 99.2, four, 5% 10. But if you know, you just call it 99% in. There's 0.7% copper there's 0.5% nickel. And then 0.005% German germanium. Yeah, this is how crazy they get with the alloys.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah. How do they figure out, like, you just gotta add that little tiny pitch to make it just right.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah. I think what they do is they just, they just try a blend and try a blend and try a blend and just keep testing and trying and testing and trying and testing and trying. And yeah, they figured out they need a little bit of germanium. The whole reason that they're doing these alloys and they're trying to, you know, dope 'em with these different sorts of elements is they're trying to get the melting temperature down. The great thing about lead lead alloy 63 37 is that it has a very low melting point, 183 sac305 is much, much higher. You're talking a melting temperature range of 217 to 220 Celsius. That's much, much hotter. And so your, your, your boards, your ovens, your components, you know, everything is experiencing significantly more heat. So that's why they're playing around with all these alloys to try to drive the, the temperature down. Well, silver is helping that sac 3 0 5 alloy drive the temperature melting point down melting point down. But again, because it's so expensive, they're trying to find a way to eliminate it. So they came up with this fancy SN 100 C alloy and even though the alloy temp is much higher, it's at 2 27 Celsius. It is still useful because it's largely not used for surface. Components it's mostly used for through hole soldering. The reason this is okay is because boards and leads of through hole components can handle that heat. It's the Silicon it's the glue for lack of a better term that holds, holds these surface Mount devices together. It's the plastic, it's the gold bonding to the Silicon. It's all these other things that really get stressed out in that high temp environment. Whereas, and that's because you're putting it into a reflow oven. So everything is getting really, really hot. Versus when you're doing through whole soldering, you're usually only contacting the board and the leads. You're not usually contacting the components themselves so they can, you know, you can get by with a slightly higher melting temperature, solder and reduce your cost because you don't have any silver. So that's why they play around with those, those alloys to try to do that. The, the fun thing is I love bit of drama in the, in the solder alloy world SN 100 C invented by Nihon superior, patented by them. They licensed it to other companies to be able to sell products with it. So aim is a licensing of, of SN 100 C and they pay a licensing fee and I'm not sure how it's all worked out, but, you know, Nihon superior gets money from aim for using their patent. Kester didn't wanna play that game. So instead they basically just ripped off SM 100 C and they made something called K 100 LD, which stands for Kester 100. Right. Trying to imitate, trying to use that 100 branding and LD stands for low draws, which like,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:What's low
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I don't know. I've never seen. Yeah. dross is like, draws is, is, is when you, when you melt Soder it'll get exposed to oxygen and it will. More or less become kind of useless dirt.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:mm.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:And yeah, you have to, you have to pull that off and clean, keep your solder pots clean and stuff like that. And they, they call it low dross because they felt like the, the, the K 100, the kester version of SM 100 C had less dross than the nihon superiors version. I don't know if that's true, I'm sure there's probably like, you know, an extra hundredth of a percent of germanium or something in there. I have no idea, but. I'm sure they got sued for it. you know, like I can only imagine we largely used K 100 LD because when I came to Worthington, I had been a sales rep for Kester. And so I knew the product and we started using it, but I'm not particularly partial to it. Like, I'd be fine with this other stuff, but anyway, still. That melting temperature is quite high. So, so companies continue to try to drive towards lower temperature, lower cost alloys to, continue to create products that people will be happy with. And then they'll, they'll a lot of times they'll create like custom products for specific applications. There's like custom alloys, like just for LEDs. And there's custom alloys, like just for NASA. Like if you're building a board for NASA, you have to use this alloy and all this kind of stuff, but. Nowadays NASA is trying to use the most common materials. So like, I know some of these exotic materials have been tested by NASA and because they approved it, then it's become more popular. So for example, Aim has a couple, alloys they call rel 22 and rel 61. And I think the rel thing comes from reliability. It's sort of like a branding thing. So rel 22, I think the overall goal there is to try to replace SN 100 C and rel 61. They're trying to replace sack 3 0 5, but you know, it, they're trying to find alloys that melt at a lower temperature and are more reliable. than sack 3 0 5 and SM 100 C you know, they're just continuing to try to drive and create technology. That's, that's better than what exists, which makes sense. Right. And because if they can create a better product, they can sell more of it. That's capitalism for you. Right. But they do melt at a much lower temperature. So like R 22 is gonna be melting at 210 or 99 Celsius to two 12 or a hundred Celsius. And. That that difference going from, you know, two 10 to 2 17 7 degree difference that can make a big difference in getting sufficient hole fiill on your on your, you know, six, seven or 6, 8, 10 layer boards. You know, you don't have to have quite as much heat to wick up and fill those holes as you would with sack 3 0 5 and way less heat than you would with SN 100, cuz again, SN 100 melts at 2 27. So you're, you're talking about a 17 degree Fahrenheit difference here that can make a big difference in getting sufficient wholesale. So we've been playing around with rel 22 lately. Or is it real 61? I can't one of the two we're we've been playing around with and trying to get familiar with whether or not it will have better whole fill and, and less bridging and all these sorts of other things and pretty good success. So there's a chance we may be converting our machines over to those alloys at some point. And they're, they're proven products. They're proven alloys it's not like they're exotic anymore. People have been using these things for years now and you know, we're just, we're just behind, I think. One thing you may have noticed as I was listening off those melting temperatures there's only one melting temperature for 63 37, the old school lead. There's only one melting. That's not exact, absolutely true, but it's effectively true. And that's because those are, what's known as eutectic alloys meaning they melt at just one temperature. There's no, in between stage a non-tech alloy, like S 3 0 5, rel 22 R 61. These have a bit of an in between stage. So they, they have a melting range, typically two to three degrees. Sometimes can be higher. Like I think RL 61 is about, yeah, it's about seven degrees. So that's where they, a non-eutectic alloy enters a bit of a plastic stage, kind of like a pasty, like slurry kind of a stage where it hasn't fully melted yet, but it's about to melt and once it gets over that final temperature and you know, I don't know enough about the benefits. This is, this will be another good question for an, an representative from aim to get on for. I don't exactly know the benefits of eutectic vs non-eutecttic, but I will tell you that 63 37, in my experience, we had way more issues with tombstone than we do with sac 3 0 5 sac 3 0 5. Like basically we do not have. Tombstone issues. And I don't know if that plasticy stage helps with that or not, but if it does, I'm all for it., you know, we've had good success with that. And I'm, and I'm pretty happy with it. This, this sort of plasticy stage that the analogy I've heard before from, from some solder suppliers is they say, it's sort of like, it's sort of like how concrete you have this sort of a, a setup. Stage right. If you've ever poured concrete, you know, it's kind of liquidy and, and slurry E and then, you know, as it starts to cure, you can kind of push it around. You can kind of form it and shape it. And then, and then once it's cured, it's done, right. It's never going to be anything but concrete ever again. You know that hard shape that, that sidewalk, that driveway, whatever it might be. And while it's, reflowing, it's kind of like that where it it'll have like, kind of a plasticy stage where it's kind of can be shaped and molded and blah, blah, blah. And then once it's, you know, melted, it's totally liquidous. And then once it's cooled again, it's totally cured and it'll stay cured forever. It's never gonna be in kind of a plasticy stage until you obviously heat up and melted again. It is metal after all and not concrete. It's not a chemical reaction. That's curing it. It's the, it's the temperature. That's curing it, but that's a subject that's always confused me eutectic and non-eutectic. And so the, for this episode, I had to do some research to wrap my head around it, but yeah, it's a weird one. And then when we buy solder, we're buying it in basically like four different forms. Well, really three different forms, but there's a fourth form. We buy it in bar and bar solder is exactly what it sounds like. It's literally bars of solder, typically like a pound to a pound and a half, depending on the manufacturer. And between manufacturers, they try to be very careful to have the bars be a different shape if it has lead in it.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Hmm,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:lead will have.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Because you don't, you do not, you do not wanna put a lead bar into a 500 pound lead free solder pot. That would be a really expensive day. a really, really expensive day. So, bar sold is usually used for like, wire tinning wave soldering, selective soldering things where you have like a. Of melted, solder. That's larger where you're gonna use bar solder wire solder, probably most of our listeners have used wire solder. So this is where you're doing your hand soldering, your robotic soldering. It's it can also be used to fill solder pots. So one of the newer machines we've bought it actually, it's a big. Big gauge real thick gauge wire, and it will fill a solder pot and keep that solder pot full automatically as opposed to yeah, because bars.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:putting bars in. You.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of a pain to deal with bars and stuff. Whereas you buy these reels and you have a motor that just turns and fills the pot up. It's really sweet. We really like that. Flux is typically in the wire, not for the, not for the wire that fills the sold pots. That would be nonsense. But if you're doing hand soldering, robotic soldering, things like that, there was usually in the center of that wire anywhere from one, two or 3% flux inside that. And we actually talked about that a little bit in episode 48, where we talked about flux. But they, somehow again, they use the term injected the way I always imagined they did it is they like. I always assumed that they had like a flat, like a, kind of like a ribbon shaped thing of solder. And then they, like, I don't know, like smeared flux on top of it. And then progressively folded that against itself and created kind of like a you know, like a pastry of
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Like a little, like, like a little cinnamon roll, like
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:guess a little cinnamon role. Yeah. You know, and drew it out and drew it out. But I guess that's not how they do it. I guess they like, I don't, I don't understand. I definitely, we have to have somebody else on to explain this because it made no sense to me how they, they, they, no, they're like, no, we create the wire and then we inject it. What? It's not like you have a needle on this
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:like, wait how, while the wad or while the wire is solid.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:then there has to be a whole, like a, has to be empty in the center, right. Like,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:See, so I imagine what they did is they had like a V-shaped thing that split it open, like cutting a cutting, a hot dog roll, you know, and then they lay some flux in and then they have something else that forms it over. That's that's the only thing I can imagine.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Hmm.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:That's how they do it. I don't know. I don't
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:a good question to ask somebody that knows what they're talking.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Keep keep listening to the pick place podcast and you will find the answer to it eventually. But yeah, so that's, that's sold wire there's tons and tons and tons of manufacturers of solder wire. There's just loads of them. There's not as many manufacturers of solder bar typically, you know, you'll have people will buy the bar and create the wire and stuff like that. And then I believe there's even less manufacturers of solder paste and we use solder paste. We use a ton of solder paste. So this is powdered solder that is then blended with chemicals, you know, blended with flux to create solder paste and the way that they create the powder. I think we've probably talked about this on the show a few times, cause I just find it so cool. It's basically like sifting for gold. They, they create this powder and then they sift it through these various screens and they have like, they stack these screens up. So you'll have, you'll have your thickest screen on the top and then a little bit thinner and then a little bit thinner and a little bit thinner on and on down the tower. So your top screen is gonna be what they call a type one. Then they go to type two type three type four type five type six. I believe type six is the smallest currently. Maybe type seven and type eight exists experimentally, but I'm not familiar with anybody shipping a product with anything more than type six. And this is why type six powder or excuse me, type three. Powder is really small. You're talking anywhere from 25 to 45 microns for each little solder ball. So, and if you take a microscope and you look at solder paste under a microscope it that's type three is probably the most common. Powder size type four is getting more common. Now, actually I would, I would say type four at this point now, because devices are getting smaller and smaller, I would say the type four is probably the most common now. And those are anywhere from 20 to 38 microns in size microns. We're talking millions. Of a miillimeter really, really tiny type five is anywhere from 15 to 25 microns. And then type six is anywhere from five to 15 microns. To put that into context, the thickness of a human hair is usually somewhere around 50 microns.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Wow. It's like 10 times smaller.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:It is 10 times smaller than the thickness of a human hair. And it's gotta be really challenging to create that type six powder. If you think about it, you know, like I can just imagine, like these screens getting gummed up. And just like, like again, use the analogy of, of football players trying to leave the locker room all at once. You know, if everybody tries to shove in through that door all at once, they're gonna get stuck. I, I can't imagine that's probably pretty difficult to get that done. And that's why it's quite
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah, I was gonna say, that's why it costs the big bucks.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:It costs the big bucks. We do use some type type six powder for jetting when we jet solder paste. But by far, the most common we use is type three and type four type four. We probably use more than type three. And this is because anything, basically anything smaller than an oh 4 0 2, you gotta be using type four. Anything smaller than 0.5 millimeter pitch, you gotta be using type four. You know, you're just getting to some really small stuff there. And. It's tough to fit these powders through the apertures of a stencil at this point. You know, you're, you're really, you're getting pretty small there. So, usually we'll buy it paste in jars, but it can also come in tubes, which confusingly they call cartridges, but whatever They're shaped like a tube. And then then, then there's these other packages, which I call cartridges, which they call. Gosh, I can't think of the name of 'em at the moment, but there's certain type of types of stencil printers that don't use a squeegee blade and they use kind of like a pressurized system to kind of push the solder paste in the apertures. Yeah, it's, it's super weird. Not really common, but. But the cool thing about it is you never expose the solder pace to the atmosphere. It just stays inside of the stencil printer and then it stays squished onto the stencil. So there's no evaporation loss, which is kind of cool. I guess it's pretty popular among like automotive and, and some consumer electronics markets, but it's really not popular in contract manufacturing. Like what we do. We, we basically stick to jars and tubes for the most part. I have seen and, and for, for the most part, solder paste is used for a surface Mount it's not really used for much else. You might, you might use it for, for some rework. You might dip. Your BGAs in sold paste. Most of the time you dip your BGAs in, in flux. Now, if you're doing part on part, so if you've ever seen teardowns of an iPhone, you'll have or other, you know, Samsung, everybody does this. Now they put their processor on top of their Ram. And then the Ram is on the circuit board. And really how that gets assembled is you, you pick up the Ram first and you place that under your circuit board, like any other BGA, and then it has pads on the top of the Ram. And then you pick up your processor, you dip your processor and flux, and then you place your processor on top of the Ram. That's called part on part or package on package is the other popular term for that P Oop pop and. I I know initially they used to dip it into paste. That was a very common way of doing it. I think since then, the more common way of doing it is dipping it into some, some gel type flux now, but that's another that's it's still S excuse me, it's still SMT. S paste is largely used just for SMT, but there was one time I went to this manufacturer of. they doing? I can't remember what they were doing, but they, I don't remember what the product was, but they had this bar of copper picture, like maybe one inch thick, maybe three quarters of an inch thick, something like that. 20, 25 millimeters thick. And they were wrapping copper wire around this bar. So just looping it around it. And then there were smearing solder paste on. And then they had this giant soldering iron. I mean, the, the soldering iron was probably, again, maybe like one inch across, you know, 25 millimeters across. And they were dragging this soldering iron over the solder paste. And that's how they were soldering this, this wire to this copper bar. It was the craziest thing I'd ever seen. I'm like, are you doing? I've never seen anything like that in my life. And I was there trying to convince them to weld it rather than sold it because they were having failures. And anyway, I don't, they never bought the welder. I think they just kept soldering them, which is probably a smart move. I don't think the welder would've been the right call there, but when you're a starving salesman, you try to sell anything. So that's another application I've seen for solder paste. But then we can also buy sold in preforms. So these are, these are, I think we talked about them in our episode on intrusive soldering. These are typically just various shapes of, of alloy. Just pure alloy, no flux. They're not powdered, they're not drawn into a wire. There's some kind of arbitrary shape and these are either stamped or they're pressed through dyes and then cross sectioned and sliced, or however it is that they need to manufacture them. They're kind of like a machined part, but I don't think they actually are gonna machine, you know, cut these things. Maybe they are, if they're complicated shapes, but and then those get packaged into the either loose, you know, and then they're hand placed or they're sometimes put in tape in real, but that's kind of. The final form, far less common far by far, the most common way to buy solder is, is bar wire and paste. And that's, that's how we buy it. And we buy it in the various alloys blended with various chemicals. And there's a huge supply chain of people providing these types of things. Sometimes customers will dictate. You must use this wire. You must this paste yeah. And largely. Worthington and CircuitHub we, we just say, no, this is the only thing we use. Are you okay with that? And I find most of the time, everybody's like, yeah, that's fine. It's an equivalent, you know, , they're okay with it. But there are, like, I remember when I was a kester salesman they had this particular type of sold wire with the special flux in it that these government these government prints specified. If you're gonna build this board, you must build it with this approved Kester, solder and Kester stopped making it. So then everybody was scrambling to try to find. and it was like, no, you need to update, you know? And then it's like the number of loopholes that had to jump through to approve a new thing and Ugh, it was, it was crazy. So that's, that's the trouble with putting specific materials on your print is sometimes they get discontinued and you gotta reevaluate it. And it's like, really? Did you care about that
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Or they're outta stock.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Or they're on stock. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking about stock. Oh my gosh. We had a nightmare. We were trying to buy there's a particular type of sold paste we absolutely love made by Loctite and we, we couldn't find any cuz it, that division of Loctite got bought by this other. solder company outta Japan and the transition has been rough. And but thankfully we found enough in crisis averted, but we've been evaluating some solder paste from aim and having pretty good success with it. So now we'll have two options in the future, but that's neither here nor that you don't have to worry about that. Let's let's talk about what, what should you care about as a designer when it comes to solder? I would say largely. Don't concern yourself with it. if you can. I think the only time you need to be concerned is if you're making a super high reliability product look at. The various manufacturers and the Allos they offer and look at the specs on them for shock performance, thermal performance. They do have different qualities. S 3 0 5 SM 100 C. These are great general purpose alloys that, that cover a lot of. Like almost any application you can think of, but again, if you're building an airplane or you are, you know, you're building a nuclear submarine, probably you have resources available to you. that will define, you know, What performance you need from these alloys. And I can almost guarantee that there is a specific alloy designed for Boeing and designed for electric boat and these, you know, companies that are making super high reliability products. But that's mostly where you need to concern yourself with the different alloys is your, your high reliability applications. You may have. It is not uncommon to have a component that cannot experience the temperatures of a traditional SAC305 application. So you have to use a low melting temperature. alloy so for example, we had a customer that had a surface Mount solar panel that went onto their product. And I say, panel it's like, you know, 15 millimeters by five millimeters. It was tiny . But it was a solar panel. Right. And it generated a current. And for that, we had to use a lower melting alloid than S through oh five, because that 0 0 5 was well beyond the temperature that the solar panel was capable of experiencing. And we discovered that the hard way after we destroyed his yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. yeah, his first samples. And yeah, it was, it was a, just a, he, he didn't tell us about the requirement. We didn't look at the data sheet for solar panel, you know, and, and anyway, it worked out cuz we just built one board to test and we realized what the problem was. Ordered some low temp, solder. Everything was fine. We continued to build them. No problem. But yeah, so there are components that need a loader, lower temp alloy that's another reason why you, you know, you might want to consider and check out what components you're using. Make sure they're compatible with the typical you know, reflow temperatures that you see with SAC305 and SM 100 C. Usually the data sheet will literally say sack 3 0 5 on it somewhere like it'll, it'll use that term. SAC 3, 0 5. And, and say it's compatible with standard reflow processes, but if it doesn't make sure you call that out, make sure your manufacturer knows, like you can't use act zero five. We gotta go with a lower melting point or something like that. So, yeah, just be aware of that. What do you think talked enough about solder?
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:I think so it's time to give the people what they really are here.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:this is why people tune in isn't it, the pet peeves. This is why people.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:it hundred percent is. Yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:We had some, we had some good ones. We actually had a customer write about a good one recently. Maybe we, maybe we can include it. We'll have to, maybe we can get him to record his voice and share his pet peeve. And we'll, we'll add it on later.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:all right. Yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah, but you got a good one for us this week
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:I have, so I have a couple and I'll, and I'll let you. I'll let you choose. So I have, yeah, I have one that's a pretty basic everyday Joe type pet peeve. And then I have one that's someone that's on their computer all the time type pet peeve.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I think, I think both of those would apply to our entire audience.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Okay. Or I can tell you both cuz one of them's
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:let's go. Let's go. Let's go with the short one. This has been a long episode. Let's go with the short one today and we'll, we'll jot down what the long one is for a future episode.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Okay. So that one is when you're eating chips and you bite down on a chip, but it's like vertical and then it digs into the roof of your mouth.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:the worst. That's the worst
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:I not really any solution to that pet peeve, like
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Nope. I don't think there
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:only eat cheese puffs or something.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah. Or like, be super careful when you insert the potato chip in your mouth, but sometimes they curl up and you can't help it. You know, you got edges all over.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:It's like,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:encountered that one recently, so I finally started a pet peeve list on my phone, so
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:when you were. Oh, I like that.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:yeah. Yeah. So every time it like happens, you write it down and then you don't have. You don't have to think about, I feel like we're always like, oh yeah. Like I had one, two weeks ago now. I can't remember. So
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Good. We'll we'll we'll pocket the next one for the next episode. I can piggyback on that a little bit. Did you ever eat captain crunch when you were a kid or as, or an adult
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. Only on the weekends though.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Yeah. Those those absolutely captain crunch, breakfast cereal. Those absolutely created like, they were painful to eat, cuz they were so hard. You would like totally cut up the roof of your mouth on those things.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah. You have to like, wait for them to soak a bit,
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:yep.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:but then you're having soggy then it's just, yeah.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:I know, I know you don't want soggy cereal. Yeah. It's just, it's a lose lose. It's a lose, lose beating up the roof of your mouth, eating hot pizza. Like you wanna eat that pizza as soon as it hits the table, you know? And then you take your first bite burn. Your mouth immediately ruin the rest of your meal. It's the worst. Yeah, it's a good one. Eating the chip the wrong way. I like it, Melissa.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:yeah, so random, but
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:So random, but everybody can relate to it. It's great. It's great. All right. Perfect. Well, I hope you enjoyed that. Hope everybody got something out of that. If you have any questions about solder or how to cut the roof of your mouth on potato chips, I'm sure you can get your questions answered. You can email us contact pick place, podcast dot. As always you can tweet at us at CircuitHub or at w assembly. And please, if you know anybody you think would enjoy the show, please let 'em know about it. We love to have new listeners and you know, we do not make any money from the show. We do it for the love of it and so hopefully hopefully people enjoy it and continue to get great stuff out of it. We'd love to hear from you. So please, please do not hesitate if you think, oh man, I don't wanna bother them. No, please bother us. We'd love to hear from people and reach out to.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening to the pick place podcast. If you like, what you heard consider following us in your favorite podcast app, and please leave us a review on apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Thanks. Very much everybody.
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--guest987122--melissa:turkey sandwich time?
episode-52-solder_recording-1_2022-08-09--t03-57-20pm--5ed8f71682ed4b003611fd34--echrisdenney:Oh yeah.