People Planet and Fabrics with Anthropologist Carroll Dunham

My guest today has a wealth of knowledge of all things fabric. Carroll Dunham has traveled the world with National Geographic, and selected a very unique collection of threads that support indigenous tribes . But more than that, she has made it part of her mission to bring awareness to the importance of micro ecosystems, and how it takes generations of craftsmanship along with a very local environment to create legacy fabrics.  It is the difference between a micro economy and a global economy, and it’s quite fascinating.

She cofounded Around The World in 80 Fabrics as a way to preserve and tell the story of sustainable fabrics, and create fertile ground for the cross pollination of ancient sustainable practices in the making of fabric. 

www.atw80fabrics.com 

Transcript

Exclusive interview with Carroll Dunham of Around the World in 80 Fabrics

Yeah. Why don't we get started? Tell me a little bit about your background and how you got started and how you got into eco fashion?

Sure. Well, first of all, you know, I work with Tony T's. She's a marine biologist. And really, she was the inception of our project because of her passion for oceans and then seeing all the microfibers in her field study sites, and that really, is what gain came to the inception of around the world and at fabrics. And actually, we were we had an intern who was looking for bark cloth and Ugandan bark cloth and we stumbled upon Leslie Robertson, who is a textile artist who works with Ugandan bark cloth. And Leslie is a pal a Texas powerhouse like you've never seen. She's an artist, exhibitor a connector of people and has been all over the world with the Smithsonian, etc. Working with community groups. So my story is, I guess it's from hurting Yaks and spending over 30 years working with women and social enterprise in the rural remote mountains of the Himalayas, in both Nepal and some work in Bhutan. But and mostly with yak herders in Mongolia. And in fact, one of the highest concentrations of yaks left on the planet. So one of our great passions is really also understanding you know, we as an anthropologist for me, it's just so extraordinary when you think we're such an odd creature. Why in the world do we even wear clothes? And how we lost our fur in the first place? You know, where we have hair where we don't? 

When we first began wearing clothes, is really quite fascinating because it actually looks like it's was head lice, and when they're the evolution of when life started to evolve into body lice is what gives us an indication of roughly 180,000 years ago, roughly we imagine as we humans started to spread out all over the planet. And as we evolved to look at different ecosystems, and what would be the best materials most appropriate for those environments that we could wear, to protect our silly and sacred genitals at all. You know, I mean, why wear clothes at all is actually a larger question is we're if we ask, especially if we're asking that within the realm of sustainability, I bring that up. So actually, for me really what it was, was being there up in the, in the high mountain communities and watching the plastics coming in from China, the synthetics that were replacing traditional textiles, you know, like, right now I'm wearing, this isn't, you know, 20 year old felt jacket from Mongolia, that I that was made by friends. And the fact is felt is one of the oldest forms of textile worn by humans after we were wearing skins was just that pressing and just imagine it, we're still wearing it, it's still useful. And it's been used by humans and human skin for over 6000 years. So we find extraordinary and archaeological sites and we talk as an anthropologist, 

I just want to say that with climate change, what's really fascinating is, the history of Textiles is exploding. Why? Because tragically, as glaciers are melting, we're finding more sites. So we're we're finding more about the history of textiles. Before we thought textiles were very, were very fragile. They didn't they didn't last they weren't durable, I'm bringing up that because we're going to return to that is story of durability with our textiles. And so but now we're finding some that are coming as a you know, the tragedy of melting glaciers, we're finding these these fabrics that are going are pushing back our history, we realize, not only were we as humans, probably Neanderthals, were also spinning and creating fibers were interacting with natural text, neck natural materials, to make something to protect themselves, and even animals that are animals that actually create for themselves, the fabrics and things to cover themselves. 

So that is what started my thing is asking, you know, what could we were in a post petroleum world? What would that look like? Petroleum is a finite substance. So what possibly could we were so that out is down the rabbit hole of the for our COVID time, we began exploring and talking with people all over the world, in all different ecosystems, trying to understand as we were meeting cultural revivalists, who are bringing back incredible old traditional and some traditions that are holding on literally by a thread, very few tradition holders holding them and there's globalization has a huge impact on that, as we try to ask, Well, what have we as humans been wearing since the beginning of time, as we understand and look to the future of what we could possibly wear in the future in a more circular economies, where we actually could nourish and nurture the earth rather than to clean it? And toxify it?

Wow. Yeah, petroleum being a finite resource. That's so interesting. It's something I haven't even considered myself, even though I'm always thinking about sustainability. And I know that petroleum is a finite resource. How silly is it that we are just so attached to it?

You know, I It's incredible. Like, I think for one moment, we have to give it its due. Be, you know, my partner is, as a marine biologist, and I understand it, she she sees the devastation the impact on the environment, particularly on marine environments, where, you know, from the clothes that we wash those microfibers that go down into our water streams, and go into our oceans, on our, into the organisms in the ocean, and then actually into the entire food web into our neonatal cells. I mean, we have microfibers now and every single ecosystem in the planet from Antarctica up to Mount Everest. You know, it's pervasive. And yet I think what's so extraordinary is when you think I mean, we have to give a little bit of an, you know, an ODE, what I call fantastic plastic. Yet tragically, it may not be so fantastic. It's almost like heroin, how much we, as a species have fallen in love. I mean, it's an amazing it's an amazing what it does look not only in terms of the energy, how it's fueled our economies, but what's happened is, as petroleum companies have, actually with new energies, solar etc, becoming cheaper, new batteries coming in. The petroleum companies have just moved completely into the textile industry. You and consumers are have, they've snuck quietly into our groovy little yoga pants. And while we think we're saving the Earth, in fact, you know, we are wrapping our genitals in petroleum in fact, like, it's my good friend, Luis Leakey, very famous anthropologist says, you know, who knows, if we as a species, we may be the authors of our own demise. And if we are, all that will be left is will be one little thin blip of plastic in geologic time, actually, that will be the legacy of, you know, our time and period, you know, who are these people, the archaeologist of the future, if there are any or aliens who come? They'll say, Oh, well, they really loved patrolling, they, everything was about petroleum, you know, they, they ran their cars, they wore war it, you know, it was a part of who and what they were. So trying to understand what we did before there was petroleum, and trying to understand what we could do post I think, is a really critical issue of our times. And there's no at this moment in time snapshot 2020 to 2023, there really is no one single replacement for Fantastic plastic in what it can do. And so what we've been looking at is what humans have been doing in their small little local ecosystems all over the world, what has been the impact, you know, natural fibers is a very, very, very small percentage of the fashion industry and of textiles globally. 

And the reality is, is that we can't all if we all were to wear natural fibers, there's not even enough right now fields or natural resources to do that. So that's also another discussion. As we look to seeing, you know, what are we trying to promote here and yet looking at what people the amazing human ingenuity from, you know, we've loved we've looked at things like I mean, some of my favorites are lotus, I love Lotus Viber. So, if you look and in, in Vietnam, in Cambodia, in Myanmar, they are they actually make fiber from the stock of the lotus and they make it into into fabric pineapple in the Philippines is used to make fabric in the Japanese is Japan is one of the great they're some of the most innovative when it comes to looking at how do we make a fiber what's going to be the polymers of our future you know, we think of physics and we think you know, string theory the world is held together and strings and fabric the power and profundity the metaphors and our language of textiles and how it is utilized and it links us all together. And so you have in Japan they make from Wisteria from Linden, bark, the show food banana is also another common $1 You wrath the

in hemp as we know is we're gonna see a huge enormous return, I think are the genes of our future, we're going to see a lot more hemp and nettle jeans replacing cotton because of the amount of water used in cotton. We also have had an extraordinarily exciting time I called them and I want to share with you one thing because it's like I 

What have I learned while while our in our explorations is when we look at what we've been wearing, I call them the Big Five you know, and I'm not referring to football teams, but I mean, in, in, in textiles, you know, what is the oldest that we've been wearing earrings and the oldest fiber that we think it's actually as flax and I don't know if any of you I wish I could show an image of if you've ever looked at a flax plant, it's a little tiny flower, little blue. Like I'm just telling you, I would look at it and immediately say, You know what, I think I'm gonna wear that next season. I mean, that is just not what's gonna happen. 

And amazingly we even looks like Neanderthals you know, we're spinning and weaving as well. So we have 33,000 years old and an ancient cave and Georgia. We have at Gobi to pluck a one of the oldest sites in Turkey. We have hemp, mixed with lent linen. So we had hemp, we have linen. Everybody of course thinks of wool. 

That's what I'm wearing here is He felt the Old Central Asiatic nomads, etc. And it was shelter as well as clothing. And I think when we're looking at the new materials of our future, you're gonna see, you know, it's we're looking at the future, how are we going to feed ourselves? How are we going to clothe ourselves? How are we going to protect ourselves with climate change as things shift? What are we going to be wearing? So well was also used, you know, to make houses and their yurts, but also was used to war and they borrowed it from the sheep.

But we look at all the different fibers, it's absolutely astonishing when we go deep with microscopy, into the different fibers of the of different, for example, when we look at animal or plant proteins, which are some of our earliest so of the Big Five, we have, obviously, animal proteins are some of the earliest and and we've been looking at, like, folks up in them, making fish skin out of you and Ben right now they're using fish skin waste, but that's old traditions in the high north, amongst many of the Northern Native Americans, as well as obviously, so we have even Woods gets very interesting as you look at like people that in their environment, you know, they're harvesting seals, we think of seals being clubbed, but in fact, you know, in for them in their environment, that's all there is. And that's the only thing we don't advocate that you were I go out and buy seal cloth but to recognize and honor that different communities in different ecosystems, what is appropriate, in in different ecosystems, what is sustainable, we have to look at different ecosystems. So and then they'll and then of course, so I've mentioned wool, and there's and of course, there is cotton, you know, 5000 years old, we see that run around and yet ironically, right now we're only using 90% of the cotton found on this planet is American cotton. I was down is maybe right close to you in Toyota in in Mexico. I strongly urge if you ever go down to Wahaca you go down to the Costa Chica region there there are women who are still growing their own indigenous This is Forest cotton, so it grows and forests it's not it's not a commercially planted so it doesn't take the Kingston kind of water inputs, it just takes whatever comes rain comes from the sky. And I was just in Bhutan two months ago and we were finding some other forest cotton's their local indigenous varieties of different kinds of cotton's. 

So understanding and looking at the diversity, the biodiversity of possibilities within what we call the Big Five silk. Ah, I mean, humans and silk. Silk is the biggest rabbit hole on the planet, you'll go down so I was just in Assam less than a month ago. And in Assam, which is northeast India. It's south of Tibet, near Burma. And I've spent an hour and a half east of Bhutan, South North of Bangladesh, you have they've been making the most expensive silk found on this planet is called Muga silk and it has very iridescent, very golden qualities. And they also is what's the home the indoor Brahmaputra ecosystem of the Erie silk moth and the Erie silk mob is called a Ahimsa silk. Because actually, it has a unique cocoon where you do not have to kill the coupe to make the silk like bombax more dry, which is the most common genus as we look at the Natural History. 

So we were in there with with the forest communities and their biology, their connection, their relationship to the silk, the extraordinary cycle of war of the of these organisms. I mean, it went it's just mind boggling to think of some of the Heritage we've inherited from our ancestors. So and all I wanted to do was see some meeting Muga so crumbs and extra Oh, no, you're you're you're a week late. Oh, we just let the ball off wild, you know, two hours ago, so it's night was falling. We didn't know where we're going down. A bouncy, dusty village road in the middle of the forest. We came across an extraordinary moth brothel just filled with water in these huge, gigantic. They're so beautiful and gorgeous. And the minute they you know emerge from the cocoon, they start to mate and then the female lays the eggs and they make sure the human intervenes to they lay their eggs on a little stick and then they put them up into a tree. They're very fussy eaters just the way we think bombax, Moray and eating mulberry leaves. The M theory as summonses on likes to eat, Laura is called the soem tree etc. and it eats voraciously. And then within 12 to eight hours, it spins its magic cocoon filled with sericin. And they have to watch to make sure the monkeys don't get them. Because the monkeys love to go up in the trees. Because they're so sticky. The cocoons, they stick them on their, on their hair. And so like thieves, they're covered with the cocoons, and they run down the trees and run away, and then they eat them. And so then with the tribals with the I was speaking, that's the Muga silk, then the Erie silk is that where it has a cocoon, so you can take out the pupae? Well, it is true, you do not have to kill the pupate to create silk. But for these tribal communities, it's an essential form of protein. So they actually will eat them. And so they the so you can say, Oh, this is so horrible. But we look to the future of what food is some than many people think that it may be insects, that is how we're going to survive with the massive populations we humans have here on this planet today. And what's so interesting is the tribal peoples there people come in, and they want industrial commercialize, they want them to make a lot more and they say, but I couldn't eat that many larvae, because there's a small period of time where they take them out, you can't dry them or whatever, they have to eat them in a short period of three days. 

So why am I telling you all these long drawn out stories is simply to share the extraordinary wonder of the ecosystems, the natural history behind the clothes we wear. And we're so cognizant, and we're coming more aware of what we put into our bodies, what do we eat? And yet, we don't think very hard about what we're putting on our clothes. What are the finishings? What are the chemicals that are put on to produce our clothes? How do we use them? Where and what is the lifecycle of the clothes that we have? You know, I don't know about you, but no, I started when I was normally buying clothes, you go and I look and say, Okay, does it fit to I liked the color? I liked the style, it looks nice on me, and what's the price? And those are often you know, some of them my buying criteria. And whereas we don't often ask, you know, where does it come from? What is it's been its journey to get here. And what especially you know, what's interesting is we never think, Okay, what am I going to do with this at its end of its life? And so when we start to think of the circularity where you know, can I actually like if I have one of those big five, which is what most humans have been wearing for the history of humanity, silk, cotton, wool, hemp and linen, I can cut it up into little strips, and I can actually mulch it in my garden.

I asked to look to see what are the dyes, we don't look also because most dyes and align dyes are also made are petroleum based. So most of the bright and vibrant colors that we have. You're down in Mexico, Mexico has some of the most extraordinary Alchemist, you go to Teotitlan and Wahaca, for example, where, you know, because of the Cochin Nia, which is, you know, it's an extraordinary little insect that actually grows on the nopal cactus. And so and it was when we talk about the red coats of the British Army, we think of the Pope wearing the red dot that was from coccinea from an insect. And they that and the blue indigo dye are some of the most extraordinary dyes. You know, for them being able to make really vibrant, bold, brilliant. And we're working at cross fertilizing amongst different indigenous communities today. And it's so exciting. We're working now with a group trying to create a huge conference across the Himalayas, on natural dyes because for 100 years people have been using we've been watching the creep creeping up and the encroachment of of synthetic dyes. And so people have lost and forgotten and people use different places. And so now like we're trying to see if we can have some of our Peruvian dyers are going to come and be working with our Bhutanese dyers, and there's gonna be a cross fertilization as we looking and working on how dark because when you think especially of the microbiomes of our skin, and their impact of dye on our skin, these are very critical questions and we don't we don't look and think and think not only about what the impact of our clothes are upon us, but upon the environment. So,

wow, a lot of what you have to say, makes me think of globalization and just the impact of all of our cultures coming together and merging together. And this the strong industry sort of just hedging into these small communities. What, what can we do to protect these small communities? And what are some of the larger impacts that you've seen from globalization?

Oh, I just, I so appreciate you asking that question. As an anthropologist, I'd say that's probably one of the most important questions. You know, how can I say, I've lived out in rural areas, you know, that were pre market economy, that barter and trade, and people were just making their own clothing, you know, pretty relatively self sufficient. And I will not lie to you. I know the joy and thrill in Houma, Nepal, the nimbo women, when they when the Chinese trader would come in and bring Chinese high top sneakers, and bring in a polyester shirt, that they could scrub on the on the let's say, Wow, this thing never ends, you know. So, again, when I'm talking about the fan, fantastic plastic, just an understanding this creeping in. And what I'm trying to say is, as I'm not sure, you know, how do you stop globalization? That's a question that's a lot larger than my little pea brain could ever be able to answer. But what I can say is, I do do not underestimate, I feel that actually connecting communities under for them to understand be able to have greater control over their own resources. 

There's, I mean, you know, globalization is a double edged sword. It's like looking honey off the razor's edge. So on one hand, it's a horrible thing. And on the other hand, what we like just in our last two years with COVID, so many of the indigenous communities we're talking with, they're very savvy, they're all they're plugged in, they've got their social media, they're able, they're seeing what's going on. So with that knowledge, there's less ability for exploitation within the ability of also understanding the value. The main issue is, I think a lot is what at least what I've been seeing is, globally, what globalization has done in communities. So I mean, I'm down in Wahaca, I'm in a haka. And you know, it's only the older women that are wearing the old and the traditional, beautiful clothes, they are also the only ones that have the whole tradition, where not only are they growing their Kiuchi cotton, not only are they processing it, and laboriously picking out all of those seeds, spinning it and wearing it, like, you know, that carbon footprint, that's a very rare thing, actually, to find in this world today. When you look at the journey, that the clothing that most of us wear, that we're buying in our large American stores that are coming to us via Amazon, you know, where it's the cotton comes from Uganda, and then it goes up to China. And then it goes down to Malaysia for finishing, you know, I mean, it's absolutely insane globalization, the carbon footprint. And so the the one of the stories is how the, you know, a lot of the younger generation are going with globalization. And like, I want to wear that nice, cool, neat new thing there. I don't want to wear a granny is maybe I don't want to be a traditional tradition holder. And you so you have some of that element going on at the same time. You're finding folks that are going, you know, we used to do this, I'm going to try again. So there's, we call them radical revivalists. And there's a very exciting, fascinating movement and we've been trying to link radical revivalists understanding their community sharing some of the challenges that they have, because in different communities in different ecosystems. It's a hard fight I'll be honest and frank with you, you have to realize I'll give an example so I just share with you all about Assam I'm all into Assam because I was just there is ready to Raj was sharing with me. He has there's an amazing company called seven weeks and they make the most extraordinary Erie silk. And but he says to me, he goes Carol, the economics don't work. The economics don't work. The global economics don't work. Why do I say that? How can a human making something handcrafted hand spawned? And, you know, when you're trying to compete, you know, there's a reason we had an industrial revolution. And I could go really deep, like, I'm gonna go on a quick segue, you don't mind. I'm very tangential, I apologize. But one of the most extraordinary, I found a huge revelation for me that I didn't know, when studying the impact of industrialization, you know, who got that who took the biggest hit, it was women, women took the biggest hit, we know that women 20,000 years, you know, weaving textiles has been a women's work in art. And you know, what women used to get be able to get a little of their own little pocket change, because they have their own little looms in their industries, etc, they were hand doing and being, you know, commissioned to do to make things. And with industrialization, that money was taken away from women moved up into these larger mass scale. So yeah, globalization took away from localized small, tiny production. So what I'm trying to share is how do you lean when we have gotten used to the price points of globalization? And really, where who pays the price? The Earth, human rights workers in developing worlds pay those prices? Um, you know, my husband was there, he had to document Bangladesh, after the Rana Plaza incident, you know, I mean, it's, it's a real story, and it's, it's not finished yet. You know, we all know that. Fashion Industry is one of the darkest corners of the economic world, in terms of human rights. So and, you know, we're so we're actually also addicted not just to petroleum, but to cheap, fast fashion. And the reality is, if we we started thinking about, Okay, wow, and, you know, what is the average amount of times that we even wear our clothes nowadays, our clothes, the size of our wardrobes, you know, have grown five times since 1980, you know, that we're the amount of textile waste that is so, so huge. This is not, this is a real story. And so are the idea of considering, am I willing to pay a little bit more? For something that I'm going to cherish? Do I really need that many in our overstuffed closets? And I think one of the biggest challenges is, we in the West have this myth that like, well, I'll just take it down to Goodwill. And then I can feel good about myself because it's going on well with the reality is, that's a myth, because the percentage that is actually recycled is so very, very tiny. And the reality is, you know, that most of the developing world where it's being shipped, they don't even want it anymore, we have a serious problem on our hands. 

Because as amazing as petroleum is, it's really a matter of time, because think about it, petroleum really is just really, really ancient plants that have decayed, how amazing what an amazing magical, you know, substance, but the problem is, is time, because the problem is the amount of time it takes to to decay. And the problem is, how it toxified our water systems and gets into our systems and its impact on our environment. And then one other problem with fast fashion is it's just devastating, you know, large cut, because most people don't realize polyester, also you can make from rayon, for example is made from wood pulp, so there's massive cutting. 

So what was really one of the huge takeaways is how can we can we become more aware, not only when we're buying what we're buying, and where does it actually actually come from. But as we is reading labels, and because there's enormous amount of greenwashing going on right now. So you know, you can say, oh, but this is cactus leather. Well, I would ask you to look at that cactus leather, and say how much is cactus? How much because what they're doing right now is they know that people that people are going to be lazy, they're just going to put a little drop in the cactus into a petroleum product. So that is a serious, serious problem. And so we have to just same way we read food labels, starting to read our, our our clothing labels, I think it's really essential as we move in.

Are there any fabric that you guys are working with right now that are really exciting, and I don't know that surprise you a little bit of you?

I'll give you a couple of so. So we are a project where we look at animal proteins, plant proteins, bio fabricated, recycled and upcycled materials, we're really focused at the materials and how they impact. So in each of those categories, I could tell you amazing one, so of course, some of the fun and wild sexy ones, of course, you know, everyone is amazed by spider silk. Well, in fact, you know, ecologists biologists say, Wait, you don't want to kill all those spiders. It's amazing, beautiful piece. I don't know if any of you have ever seen it. It was very famous and traveled through the Victorian Albert Museum and other museums made from Madagascar, spider silk extraordinary. We just talked this last week, there are some extraordinary people, I'm going to be talking with Alex B, Ze, Afro futurity. One thing that's really interesting, think for a moment is our human hair. Human hair was right on us, right. So actually, there are people that are spinning and making there's play a company called human loop. And they're making can be their first project product they're going to make is sneakers, but they have made sweaters to show that it's possible. And African hair actually has different qualities, it's fiber. So it has a whole different quality. They're actually using hair mats right now, to actually help soak up oil spills. So they're using them in cities and in the drains to absorb it. And then they cut it nine to one and they bio, compost them at the end to soak up petroleum waste, you know, we think of how hair can oil so I'm just giving you some those are sort of fun and strange and unusual. I told you I mean, we love Natl we love him. We love Lotus. And in the bio fabricut Sphere fear. You know, it's so exciting. It's, it's a revolution. Because you know, synthetic biology is we are in a microbial revolution at this time. You 

know, we think of how we're just coming out of COVID our human relationship to microbes belly either kill us or they may save us the the reality we think of it microbes could be a companion species to humans, if you think of it from you know, bread or wine beer since most ancient early times our ability to understand them. So now we're looking at the same way and how we could create the new PHIPA telomeres the new clothing of the future, from microbes, etc. So and then there's also algae and they're working they're making some really interesting things. Watch Kelson labs and algae net as an example. There's groups out of Israel doing interesting things out of like orange waste. In India, they're making things out of agricultural waste, I find that one super interesting out of coconut waste. They're they're also out of fish waste. So after you've had the protein you all the guts in that they're making. It's like a faux leather because I think one of the worst green washings that we have is this notion vegan leather. That is a joke. It's polyester. I mean, it's, it's ridiculous. It's a petrol especially and based. So these are actually so what they're doing is is they're they feed the microbe, for example food waste or agricultural waste, they can actually take the DNA now out of for example out of indigo and make them microbial guys as well rather than so very interesting new world. And I think that that's those are some of the things that get us very exciting Ecovative mycelium you have to give them credit as some sort of the forefathers of looking at you know the extraordinary revolution of mycelium and that will be not only in clothing, in also in shelter as well and perhaps even in clothes and food as well. So those are just to give you a some example of some that really get me very, very excited.

yeah, so you know, there's, you know, there's a huge amount of investment going on right now. In in the field of biofabrication. It's an extraordinarily exciting time period, as they're, you know, experimenting and figuring brewed, trying to brew up new clothes, so to speak new polymers. And, you know, and there are concerns, and rightly so, and because, as I say, microbes narrow they'll kill you, or they may be they may save us and as an anthropologist, I'm very fascinated, because going to this biofabrication conference, you see the language that's being used. So some people are using the old language from industrial textile. So they're like, we're going to harness the microbes. And then there are others who say, No, it's like our mother, and she's going to spawn for us and give and provide a

little bit of like a kombucha.

Bucha. Exactly. So you know, as if it's a living thing, a living organism, and which it is a living organism, I mean, 98% of our bodies were we are microbes. So it's a brave new world, watch that space. It's very exciting. And there's, you know, things coming out. As we speak right now, you know, the bit, some of the big designers, Valencia, etc, they're coming out, they're experimenting, and there becomes huge philosophical questions. In the same way. When we talk about what is sustainable fashion was that mean? Some people say, we should talk about biocompatible fashion, some people say we should say responsible fashion, is, you know, because the problem is sustainability is such a huge word that it almost then ends up meaning nothing, we don't know how we're actually are we using it? What does it actually mean? So it's going to be really quite interesting to see, as we move as we move forward, we just have to be very, very careful that who is using this language, how are they? And it's challenging right now, I think as consumers, because there's so much talk, there's so much buzz, and being able to sift the chaff from the wheat, and know what is really authentic. And we are in process right now. So with that our our final, you know, that we're exploring, of course, is, well, we have all this stuff, what do we do with it? How do you take care of the clothes you already have? when is enough enough? I mean, I really hate to say it, it's really hard, but it's somebody who's, you know, lived in Nepal in the developing world for 3040 years. 

And we look at climate change. You know, there were these massive floods in Pakistan two months ago, you know, caused by climate change. No, what was the cause of those ozone holes is really our vast consumption in the developed world. No certification, you can call it, we're suffocating. It's suffocating, we're suffocating. And so understanding, you know, what is enough? And how can we utilize our amazing human creativity and our ingenuity to create new things out of old things and how can we work with what are already existing, you know, the amount of dead stock is just astronomical, and people are starting to look at more creatively and even some of the top fashion houses Aramis, etc. They're starting to understand, you know, bringing in people that will mend and, you know, I mean, look, I love all of the mending. I'm a terrible meander. I'll face it, you know, I have lots of clothes with holes. But the creativity of realizing that maybe we can just really try to use less is really so so simple. Do we really need so many? So why not have some spectacular things? Why not trade them around with your friends? You know, there's a big lot of people are into renting that also has problematics when we go deeper into the issues of it, you know, we're really trying to understand like, you know, we'll say, Well, what is actually when we look at water waste, when we go really analyze very, very deeply what is a sustainable material? You know, it's, we're still, we're still we're, we're not fully in agreement, there's a lot of different they're arguing, you know, even with the UN un EP, you know, Hague's development, there's a lot of different frameworks for trying to identify, so for consumers, it gets really confusing and complicated. So probably one of the easiest things is really is to say is, you know, is, you know, if you can, you know, buy something, when you buy something, just think, what's going to happen to this? When I'm finished with it, that's all I ask is, what are the questions? And where did it come from? 

You know, was there what was the labor issues? Do we do have any idea do I care? A lot of people don't care, they just care about what that that price is? And it gets complicated, you know, I also know, you know, economies right now that are dependent upon, you know, the textile industry. I mean, I think it's like one in six people in on this planet are employed in the creation of textiles, you know, like, this is a huge thing. Many people say that the textile fashion industry is, you know, our second largest polluter on the world. So, you know, there is a real need for us today to transform what we're wearing and our relationship to our clothes. 

And and how do we take care of them? You know, wash them less frequently use cold water, think about what you know, what kind of detergents are you using? And you know, some people don't even use detergents at all can you is it possible for you to hang things out in the cold like right now if I hung it out it would be frozen you did house inside so I can you know Hang Hang them up? Well, there are filters you can put on your washing machines right now micro filters that can help to absorb the microfibers there are you know people that are working right now on most people we don't think about the finishing you know, what is the chemistry that's going on make the clothing feel really good etc. on us and the finishing on the fibers some of that is extraordinarily questionable when we really look deeply at like, wow, should really be humans really are we supposed to be wearing wearing?

Is it's is some of these are some things that we maybe need need to be considering? Because how can our clothes actually help to nourish our, our soil? You know, I think this is which is where there's huge amounts. So by lesser go naked, I like to say choose natural fibers when possible. Wear clothes multiple times before washing. You know, in the old days, you know, people we used to only wash, you'd wash when you were

bored, you'd wash before your wedding and they'd wash your corpse before they put you in the ground. You know,

I mean, I've lived amongst Tibetans used to say, Oh, if you wash too much, you'll break your psychic. She's that protect you? Well, that's very practical. They live in extremely cold weather where it's probably it's really not a good idea to watch too much. And there's not as many microbes but so the same thing. It's very fascinating. Yeah, what you know microbes exist in our clothes and to be careful. We don't really need to wash them especially like wool and things like that. How often do you wash your sweaters and always wash full loads and cold and if you can shop secondhand swap rent, and be creative and try to support policies that reduce environmental impacts of fashion. I think this is really really important and when you can like here right now you were on the holiday time period for gift giving. I like to go to people I know who are making things or some extraordinary creative upcycle errs recyclers, you can go to your farmers market you can find and you know, buy less and buy precious that's my personal opinion or even I think there's going to be a you know, not everyone has the luxury to be able to revive the the inner craftsperson within them. But but there is an opportunity and possibility now for people to get excited about creating new and exciting, you know, and unique pieces. And I think that that's a lot of where we're moving in the future, which I think is exciting.

I have a personal question for you that comes from your background in Buddhism. So, are there any I don't know, meditations or mindfulness practices that you can think of that might help transform the mindset of someone who might have an addiction to fashion let's say someone who just okay, I'm going to go on Shan because I'm bored and $20. And I'm going to get three things. Yeah, what is what are some? Oh,

I so appreciate? I so appreciate that question. Because I think many people think that our shopping addictions and it is an addiction, it's an addiction, you know, they've kind of usurped our neuro, our, our wiring our neuro system. And that's what's happened now, with social media and the addictive, it's an addictive quality, like a video game, but it is. In Buddhism, we often say the way when you go into the British underground, mind, the gap, Mind the Gap, it says, obviously, there they're referring to the gap between the train station, but in, in Buddhist practice, it refers to can we create space, in the midst of the flow of our thoughts, so that we can start to recognize our thoughts, they see them, our thoughts are like, they describe them as like, logs in a river. Sometimes some of us have very clogged rivers with lots of thoughts. So in Tibetan Buddhism, they believe, you know, to be human, we wouldn't be here if we didn't have little greed, ignorance and desire. And that that's what gives us human form, that that actually creates our humanity. But how well How skillfully, we work with our own greed, our own ignorance and our own desire impacts the quality of who we are as a human being. So how do we do that? How can we be skillful with that? is, first of all, just that simple notion of the pause, you know, I mean, look, it's almost like the pandemic was the great pause. It's almost as if mother Gaia was like, seeing all this zooming of these airplanes in this craziness of our economies at hyperspeed. of you know, little were like, little amps that were on sped up, fast motion, and to slow us down, slow us down. So if we can slow down for one moment, and put a gap in space and go, Wait a second, you know, do I really need that? And also, because often, it's like you're feeding, there's an emptiness, there's a hunger that's wanting to be fed. So it's going a little deeper into that? Because it's like, wow, okay, let me sit for a moment. Pema children is a great Buddhist teacher who will just she talks about sort of leaning into the places that scare us. So the place that's can scare us, is the fear of not having enough the fear of not being accepted because I'm not wearing the latest fashions the fears. So how do we breathe? How do we can we accept ourselves as having enough like, as we are to be content? Like, actually, I, you know, I got a whole hear a stain here I have wrinkles here. I'm and how can we really embrace and cherish that? Like that's actually being radical? How it's actually if we want to be radical and going what we are? Kindness to ourselves compassion? Can we flow that into ourselves and accept? Enough is enough? And it's not easy. We're humans by nature. There's definitely like a little squirrel hoarder, that's, you know, part of who and what we are. And so how can we be creative with colors and creativity and play with what we already have and new ways? You know, I'm someone who, so I had to go I was stuck with COVID in America for three years, you know, years, I will totally confess to you. I went back to Nepal. I said, Oh my gosh, I really am very materialistic because I can tell you the joy I got unzipping a duffel bag and it was filled with my old shoes. But guess what, they were new to me, because they had been put away for a while. So this idea that you actually, you know, rotate your closet, you know, put stuff away, bring it out again with the seasons and things but hide things away and see if you like suddenly it's like new to you. So it's actually like you can be buying and purchasing from your own closet. And I'm really encouraging friends to share in exchange, obviously, we're all color come in different sizes and shapes and forms. We don't always have the same taste and flavor so that but how do we create our own independent and creatively of sharing and exchanging, it'll really help your bank account and I know fast fashion is cheap. That's why one of the reasons it's so addictive, just like fentanyl, fentanyl kills, and fast fashion kills. Unfortunately, it's killing whole ecosystems, it's killing whole biodiversity. And we're sort of asleep to that. So there's good reasons to experiment and play with feeling the abundance internally feeling that we're not things but loving kindness.

That's how I'd say Mind the gap that line again, loving kindness, really beautiful.

So it's no it's

and, and love what we have, you know, so learn to love our existing wardrobes as much as we have cherish when we have something new that comes into it, just like me, and you know, it's our relationship to our clothes can be an extension to how we relate to ourselves, psyches.

I have a short little story actually. I was invited to this kind of once in a lifetime kind of party for Halloween. And I only had a few days. And I didn't have anything to wear. So I ended up buying just an deadstock fabric and I didn't even really cut anything, I just put it on my body in a way that looks perfect and sewed it right on and showed up to the party. And you know, this is one of the parties where people really spent money at like, you know, really spend money and no one could tell the difference. That I had just sewn something on my body. That gave me a lot of pride. But then, okay, I cut it off just okay, here's where I put it here. He's already stitch there. And I have the same fabric with me. And so for Christmas, I decided to make a whole new design and I have a Christmas dress.

Stick I love it. Oh, I just love it.

It's so true, the patterning part and how do we try to reduce the waist even just in the making of fabric is so important, but also the self satisfaction of like that you created your own. You created your own thing and you did it yourself like, you know we we've given that away. I mean, they used to say with I remember, historian Daniel Borstein used to say, Oh, can you imagine the power of industrialization, like suddenly, people were on the tramway together, and they were strangers, and they look over and they could say, Wow, I'm wearing the same pair of pants as you like, there must be a kinship, like somehow this was democracy or new knighting that we were sharing the same underwear, but the same time as the other side, which is think of the URL we lost, which was the craftsmanship of individuals, you know, like, I'm gonna make my own vest and I'm gonna create it in my own style and fashion and uniqueness. And so to encourage a return to creativity and innovation, I think, gives me great hope for the future. I have great confidence and I'm very delighted and excited. We think of what the future of fabrics could be. Because we humans are endlessly creative and innovative. And we haven't even talked about how with climate change. You know, right. Maybe it'll be makes sense to be more naked. I mean, I'll be totally honest with you, of all of them. When you're asked me though, which ones excite me, you know, I don't mind drinking kombucha. I really I will be one of the last people to be wearing a kombucha loincloth. I'm just saying other people maybe but you know, it doesn't do it for me. Because you know, as we think we humans are very tactile and what you know, what we go what goes on our skin and how does and feel. So I'm very excited as the innovation coming out with youth right now and it's exploding, exploding, watch this space, because in 10 years, I think the fashion industry is going to be in a very profoundly different place than it is now. And I also believe, what's exciting, Natalie griotte, who's working on transparency in the, in the supply chains, working also with human rights issues in the fashion industry? What I get really encouraged with what she shares, which is she's like, you know, there are so many horribly horrifically polluting industries, let's just take electronics, for example, you know, and what are we the so called green future that we're making, which is going to be more mining actually, is fashion as a large number of creatives in it. And so it's ability to like, see a future that nobody else can envision yet. I mean, fashion designers have been doing that every season, they have to do that to go on the runway. And so in built in it, I actually am very excited, because I think, yes, fashion has some of the most terrific statistics in terms of its impact on the environment. And so even doing a little is a huge, like a little few percentage knots can majorly make an impact on our environment on our world. And so I have great excitement for the what the future holds for the fashion for what if you want to call it sustainable fashion, responsible fashion, biocompatible fashion?

is so cool. Feel like with your history in anthropology that I just question in my mind that's bubbling and I'm gonna figure it out.

One thing I'd like to say while you think your question is that, what, what our project, we I think we, we've interviewed now, I think maybe we're at five people. And it's given us so much hope, because you see these small little dots of light all over the planet people doing. And, and so, you know, there's a lot of talk, like, the big the big folks will say, Yeah, but, you know, that's just a micro solution. And we need a macro solution. Well, yeah, but actually, aw, 1000 100,000 small, little micro solutions is a solution. And yeah, you know, the issues with petroleum made fabrics, fast fashion, you know, your, your, your is, the issue of price is a real story. Because right now, these natural and indigenous, they're, they're small numbers of people, the economics of scale, and they keep saying, but we need to scale up. And we're saying no, we're not interested in scaling up, that is actually ecologically doesn't make any sense. And we're not interested in scaling up it. This is just the right size and amount. And it's a little like saying, you know, the, you know, what, do we have enough in our wardrobe? Let our wardrobe be a reflection of us, you know, how many pieces of clothing do we have in our wardrobe. But what I really want to say is just we've gathered the voices of indigenous folks and makers. And I get so excited. Because this, we supporting them, there's a real movement coming out of these radical revivalists. And when you ask the very good question about, you know, how do we keep, you know, larger forces from subsuming or dragging them? You know, I live in New Mexico. And, you know, Native Americans, they're still here. You know, we white folks, we did a number there's, you know, I, you know, you don't want to talk about how many millions of people we killed in our colonialization, etc. But you know what, they're still here. Tomorrow, I'll be going to those dance tonight. There'll be dancing here on the sacred grounds where they've always been, and

I, I have great faith in

a lot of that strength and resiliency, that's there. Yeah, things are changing. People are dying. You know, it's like the redwood in the forest. Some, you know, people with enormous wisdom and knowledge so we're, you know, as much as possible trying to To gather and have seen, you know, are you sharing it? And it's true, some of the young people in indigenous communities are like, that's not the future I want I, you know, I want to share one quick story. And then now, you'll have your question. But so, so I think it's an important one is we're working with this group called Green weaving in Bhutan. And the question really is, is the loom and enslavement? Or is it a potential for liberation and enlightenment. And what they're realizing is, you know, a lot of women, you know, their backs hurt, they're on the looms for hours a day, hurry, hurry, because they're trying to have to produce as if it's industrial. And, you know, so this challenge of like, we in the West can be like, Oh, this is such a beautiful story. There's, there's hand loom and made a beautiful, and we look at it with the eyes of people who've looked at machine made things. So we don't always appreciate the imperfections, the hours that go into a handmade product. And so it's a it's a project where they're working on integrating in meditation, they're integrated in yoga, and they're trying to say, you know, actually, how do you how do you make work with dignity in anything you do? Because anything we do can be seen as exploitative. Or it can be seen with dignity, where we humans go neuroscience, we it's like we go in the flow enough. We don't need to make in massive amounts. It's agreed. If we just make some, then it's at a pace that's more ecological environmental. It's in rhythm with time. And

that's all I wanted to share.

I think that actually is close to the question I was going to ask, I was thinking about how, how basically, sustainability only works on small scales, and the world operates on massive scales, everyone wants it to be at the biggest machine you could possibly create. So my question was going to be from an anthropological viewpoint, how can we make sustainability if we want to call it that? Or, you know, other, we want to define it? How can this become the new standard without it becoming the new pariah?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I've actually, that's actually, that's a very great and a very, very deep question. And, um, you know, personally, I mean, we, you can see that with all of the different criteria right now that is out, and everyone trying to scramble to create those, or I'll just give issues of certifications. You know, I'll give you an quick examples. Like, you know, I've worked with rural communities, they can't, they can't afford the amount of money that it takes, because the old days, the certification, like for, again, organic cotton, for example, it was someone in Switzerland. So what they're supposed to pay for the man from Switzerland to come twice a year to the village to be able to certify, I mean, it's so the only people that are able to afford the certifications for the organic are the rich and the large on the mass. So already, you're cutting out just by the nature of the kinds of criterion that you you create, you know, is ver is really serious and really problematic. What your question brings up for me, though, is I mentioned to you that we're working on, where we have a project in Morocco working with microbial dyes and traditional dye traditions and techniques, and we are making sure that the whatever we find from that area, because this is those are the natural items of that nation, and it's going into their microbial banks, you see, rather than the whole colonial notion that you go in, and you want to gather, you know, because everybody's seeing money and dollar signs, and all of this, and which is the issue and you're asking about sustainability issues. So like, what's why like, we're trying let's have a large gathering. And yeah, we disengagement between private enterprise and indigenous peoples is a very dangerous, it can be a very dangerous one it can be can be very dangerous. At the same time, it also can be helpful depending on the motivations and work of the folks. So in microbial dye, for example, you can have really small one, or really small microbial baths like like making a small bright, you know, a microbrewery versus having it on the vast mass scale. So there are technologies, appropriate technologies that can be applied to the fashion industry and in small micro ways that can help them to be able to ensure that it's not really no If you're trying to do natural dye in a mass way, you're going to be depleting natural resources in ways that isn't healthy. So some of the new technologies, there may be interfaces that can work, follow the money, follow who's doing it. So there's, you know, there are folks who just want to make tons of money out of it. There are folks that are have integrity, and that are looking at saying, no, we want this open source, we actually we actually really want it, we want it, we want to save the planet. So I think there are there is strength numbers and tipping points. And it's really the notion like Margaret Mead used to always say, it's like, gathering, a small group of committed people can make a profound difference. And if it's really strong and clear on that, then the ethics and the morals of it, make it it's going to make it harder. You know, like right now, folks are starting for the first time in the history of fashion to put a light into some of those dark corners of human rights transgressions, you know, bringing transparency into the supply chain. So it's happening in places will, it completely evaporate up all of the dark corners? I'm not so sure because human nature is human nature. But as consumers, we will be able to choose if we're educated, and we understand the difference. And it's going to not be so easy, because you're correct. Right now, the dust hasn't settled yet. And there's way too many certification in my opinion and things. It's where we're, you know, it's it's still complicated. So focus on our own purchasing what we can purchase right now, too, we know where it's from, can you buy as much locally if you can, you know, there's small things? Well, until the dust settles, and then I think we can probably make more better and educated choices. That's my personal opinion.

I think that's a very wise way to look at it. Because even you're right, I mean, we don't even have a full definition of sustainability. So how would we even know what the engine of sustainability would look like, in a practical manner? 20 years from now, so yeah,

I mean, but understanding it's really the science is actually exciting and explosive right now. I mean, you know, for myself, I work with I'm a National Geographic Explorer, I work I'm very concerned with, you know, the loss of biodiversity habitat on our planet. It is astonishing. I'm very concerned about extinction of animals, what has the animal the rates of animals that have gone extinct in my lifetime? is so painful, it's hard to bear. So with that, those that in mind, it's extremely exciting, because the science is we are starting to try to understand okay, what does this mean? You know, what is the difference in these different materials and their impact at around the world in at fabrics. We are working with a tough silk lab right now and creating we are very ambitiously, we want to create the most extensive fiber collection on the planet. What does that mean? So microscopically looking, so I've gone from the biodiversity and on the planet, down to the very fiber itself. And what we don't have yet so when the synthetic biologists are not able yet to work on the scaling very well, so the finishing, so it almost looks like polyester, it's very, very smooth. So this is the difference like are this wool here that as little edges in it so we can matte together? So you can do this felting, which is so genius. So the more as we looked at nature with biomimicry, we really look hard at you know, we can be creating absolutely unbelievable and amazing possibilities. And not only in the pigment in their natural dyes, but also in the very polymers and the clothing that we're going to be wearing.

So cool. I'm so excited. I'm so excited about what's ahead. And all of your work is absolutely encouraging. Like I want to go where where's your next trip? I want to go

Oh, next next trip is Japan. We're off to Okinawa. But I really I really want to go up and explore because they're the reindeer nomads. You know, caribou is one of the largest herds and yet, actually some where some of the most greenhouse gas fields are like, I mean, obviously we're as Americans, we're not going to Russia right now. But you looking up in Norway and up in Lapland and the Sami peoples, but a lot of them they're having to herd their animals right in the middle of these, you know, gaslands So, how indigenous peoples are, you know, there was brilliant they are. And they are the stewards of the last little biodiverse pockets on this planet. And so now they're being encroached on because we have decimated, you know, with a lot of our I mean, you know, I don't want to say it, but unfortunately, the Bugaboo the big white elephant in the room is capitalism and gag capitalism, which is more more more, more, more, more, more, more, more. And so the, and that's where it's not easy, because it taps right into our human like, I'm not I'm not enough, I don't have enough, I need more dairy, you human qualities, and we love change. And change is a part of who and what we are. So how can we do that more creatively with, you know, with this diversity of cool, amazing materials from bark, claws of fish scared to, you know, into a new and different form, you know, you know, small varieties of cotton's and get people excited about what is in their own ecosystem? And what can I close myself? That is right, in my neighborhood coconut shell waste.

Alright. Are there any sustainable brands that you would recommend?

There's, you know, there's some cool sites, I could, I could, I'll send you in a link link to some really, you know, there are, there are some folks that I think do that a lot better than I do, in terms of the 21st century, you know, guides to recommendations of what we should you know, or could wear, because I have too many to list. And I know that I'll forget some of that later. So I'd like to give you for in the different categories. So in the animal proteins and plant proteins and bio fabricated as well. So the upcycled recycled and upcycled recycled is exploding. And I'm, that's really where my whole brain is right now is going to be for the next six months, because I really, you know, the wealthy 1% will be wearing these really cool, neat bio fabricated things. For some of us, those price points are not going to be you know, not capable. So, how to the rest of us, just the way you share that beautiful story, you went to a party with the one percenters and nobody could tell the difference, and you were using deadstock. And I really think that's going to be that's a lot of future a fabric of fashion resides right there. So I really thank you for what you're doing. And I wish you the best of luck with your work.

Thank you so much. And where can we connect with you online?

At around the world in 80 fabrics at W ADF fabrics and also on Instagram and we love to tell stories, we love to go really deep into nettles and with equal if you're interested in the ecosystem and natural history, like where does you know K POC? Most people don't know about that. Or instead of using down in my down can i use you know, flower waste petals and I'm actually wearing this is died from waste from a temple. This is pomegranate actually died from pomegranates. So waste of offerings to temples in India now are being used for dyeing fabrics. So there's human ingenuity, we just have to look around at all the wealth of what already exists on this planet.

Can we find some of these stories on your website? Or how can we find

that? Yes, yes. And and we'll be coming out with our own book that will be coming out next year and called fabric and the history and future of what we could wear be wearing.

So I will be Yeah, I will be supporting that for sure.

Great. Thank you so much. Yeah, I think we just have to really, rather than doom and gloom, we have to really think that clothing humans have always employed we're like, you know, we're like peacocks. We're just like animals too. And we love to show and display. And so, you know to create and be creative with our clothing is really a wonderful thing if we have if we can if we can be.

Thank you so much for sharing all of your stories.

Thank you. Thanks