#186 - Finding Purpose After 32 Years in Prison with Alphonso James

What if you were sentenced to life in prison for a crime you didn't commit? In this episode, we engage in a riveting conversation with Alphonso James, who was wrongfully convicted of murder at just 17 years old and spent 32 grueling years behind bars. Alphonso's harrowing tale begins with his challenging upbringing in the South and his move to Milwaukee, where he found a glimmer of hope in the breakdancing scene. Discover the impactful day in July 1985 that changed his life forever and led to a wrongful arrest and the tumultuous road that followed.

We explore the profound journey of self-perception and internal identity as Alfonso recounts his five-year stint in solitary confinement. Imagine the strength required to hold onto integrity and truth in the face of such adversity. Alfonso shares how a chaplain's act of kindness transformed his life, igniting his passion for learning and helping others. His story is a powerful reminder of how kindness and education can turn despair into enlightenment and resilience.

Finally, Alphonso takes us through his life post-incarceration, where he faced the daunting task of reintegrating into society after missing out on over three decades of significant life events. Through community outreach and giving back, he found a new purpose, ultimately leading to personal and communal growth. Alphonso's incredible survival stories and connections, even drawing wisdom from a visit by Viktor Frankl, offer listeners an inspiring testament to the enduring strength of the human spirit. This episode promises to leave you deeply moved and inspired by Alphonso's journey of redemption and resilience.

How to Reach Alphonso:
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thealphonsojames
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alphonso-james-7038222b0/

To Reach Jordan:

Email: Jordan@Edwards.Consulting

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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jordan.edwards.7503

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Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanedwards5/

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Complimentary Edwards Consulting Session: https://calendly.com/jordan-555/intro-call

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:00

Hey, what's going on, guys? I've got a special guest here today with an incredible story. He was convicted at murder at 17 and released 32 years afterwards for a crime he did not commit. This is Alfonso James, and I'm so excited to have you guys here. So, Alfonso, tell us, how are you doing today? How did all this happen?

Speaker 2: 1:24

How I'm doing today. That's a magical question. Haven't touched the ground yet. I'm still on cloud nine and just appreciating life and the people, oh, my goodness and the family, the friends, yeah, so definitely that.

Speaker 1: 1:43

And as far as what's going on I'm sorry, no, 100, absolutely so for you. I know everyone's kind of interested how did this even happen? Like what was going on? And then what's going through your mindset throughout this experience? Cause I, I'm sitting here going, wow, that's great, like that's, it's an incredible story.

Speaker 2: 2:10

It all. It all started when I was, when I was 16 years old and I was about to turn 17,. But just give you a little backstory of where I'm from and what I had gone through leading up to that point of my arrest. I was born in the South to a single parent. My mother had five kids, me being the oldest, so we ended up moving to Milwaukee, like in 72 or 73. So Milwaukee is pretty much it's all that I knew. And so when we was down, we was in Mississippi, my mother was.

Speaker 2: 2:43

It was pick cotton in the field, and then she cleaned like the old plantation places down there, and so education was not one of those things, that, that that was imposed upon the kids. So when we came to Milwaukee, we had the same principle. We had a poor, poor public school system, and so I just had no need or no want and no desire to really learn anything. And then the flip side of that is is that I had I was diagnosed as functional illiterate at that particular time, and sometimes things will be hard for me to catch on or learn from. So because I had grown so frustrated with the system and my inability to learn, I dropped out of school when I was like in eighth grade, and so I just hung around in the streets, hung around with guys that looked like me, was angry like me, spoke like me and had none, not no ambition whatsoever other than just to wake up the following morning and repeat the same routine. So it was one day. But I was also into like serious breakdancing. Breakdancing had really, really it was brand new at the time. The hip hop music was was brand new at the time. The hip hop music was brand new. So it was like that was a scene that me and a lot of other kids in the community had got involved in, and I had gotten so good at it that people started recognizing my talent. So they started inviting me to different talent shows and so my world was wrapped up around this. Because I wanted to be famous, I wanted to be like a positive person, positive influence, and I thought I would get there through breakdancing. And then, in addition to that, I had a two-month-old daughter. So my life was really changing at 17 because I had stepped into an adult life by bringing, by help, bringing another human being into the world, even though I didn't have the financial ability or emotional ability or any of those types of things to to be able to sustain and nourish a young person like that. And so I had all these things that was going on.

Speaker 2: 5:00

And so Saturday morning it was I never forget it was July the 27th 1985. And it was like two. And so Saturday morning it was I'll never forget it was July the 27th 1985. And it was like 1040 in the morning and my daughter was coming to my mother's home. We was excited about it and I mean, it was just something. She was like a breath of fresh air into my family, something that we can. It was like that glimmer of hope and we just all just gravitated towards her. And then the other thing was is that I was about to perform on a stage where a lot of people was going to know me. So I woke up this morning with the anticipation like, wow, this is going to be a great day. My life is about to change. I'm going to have my beautiful daughter, we're going to chill for a minute.

Speaker 2: 5:41

And then, all of a sudden, the police came to the house. They came to my mother's house and they was like we were sitting on a porch and they was like, well, can we speak to that young black boy that's sitting next to you. And my mother was like well, why are you guys want to talk to him? So it's like well, we're just cameras in the neighborhood. It was some some violent thing that happened, which is he's not in any trouble. So my mother was convinced that they did not want me for any other reason other than to talk.

Speaker 2: 6:10

So after a few minutes I was transported to the Milwaukee Police Department and again I didn't know how to reach. So I didn't know that it was homicide division that was on the door. So I walk into the room. It was a small room, no windows. It was, it was a table and it was two chairs. And one of the detectives came in after a few minutes and he's like well, we just want to ask you some questions, Do you know so-and-so. And I was like, well, no, I'm not familiar with that area.

Speaker 2: 6:39

And so they came back again hour after hour after hour, and they just kept feeding me information about what they believed had happened to on the case on the homicide. I was adamant about it. My mother tried contacting the police department but they said they had. They didn't have me in custody at the time, and so, you know, she was on the other side, like panicking, like thinking something really happened to me, which it did at that time. And so, you know, she was on the other side, like panicking, like thinking something really happened to me, which it did at that time. And so, after 12 hours of this grueling, frustrating, antagonizing questioning, they came to me and I was like, well, after 12 hours it's like well, your mother's in the lobby waiting on you, the only thing you have to do is sign this document and you will be released into her custody.

Speaker 2: 7:22

So, lo and behold, I was so excited about about restarting, starting up my life again, and but this time I had a different perspective, because I was being accused of something, or I was being interrogated about something I knew that I wasn't capable of doing. So I sat there and when they came back with the, with the paper that I signed, and lo and behold, it was a confession. It was a page and a half confession about a murder I had never, never, never known anything about, wasn't a part of it, and I was adamant about it. And so, by this being a Saturday morning evening, they ended up transporting me to it's called the Children's Center. That's where they have all the teenage kids troubled teenage kids there. So they moved me there and then they was like well, somebody will be in to talk to you Monday morning. So I sat there really, really frustrated because I'm trying to understand why would they question me about a murder first of all, and then this murder, the area where it happened? I'm not familiar with that, so why would they target me? So I'm going through all these types of things and then it's like Monday morning Then, when my attorney came to speak to me and I shared with him what happened in an interrogation room and his only response was those things don't happen in the United States in 1985.

Speaker 2: 8:44

And I repeated to him over and over but it did happen. It happened to me. And so to fast track it, so within two to three months I was waived into adult court, found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to a life sentence in prison. No one ever gave me a reason as to why I was targeted, as to why I was incarcerated for a life sentence.

Speaker 2: 9:09

So the mentality I had developed I said well, if they think I'm an animal and they think I'm this type of person, then I'm going to try my best to become the best form of what they said I was, and so I went to Green Bay Correctional Institution and I was just bent on, like having somebody to do something to me, to take my life. It had just gotten to that point because at that again I didn't know how to read, so I couldn't really communicate to anyone through correspondents that I was fostering incarcerated. So I started talking to the was talking, I would talk to anyone that had ears and and again everyone rejected me because 99.9 of the guys or the people that's incarcerated say they're innocent of some type of form. So, um, I lashed out, I I ended up going to the hole for five years, for we're just lashing out oh, my goodness, that that incredible.

Speaker 1: 10:02

And so when it was that Monday morning and they said you were going to be released to your mom yes, you never got released to your mom?

Speaker 2: 10:11

No, I never was released. No, and in fact they use that statement, they use my signature against me. So that was the primary evidence that they had in my case was me signing a document, me. So that was the primary evidence that they had in my case was me signing a document. There was no video, there was no audio, there was no reading of the rights, there was no allow of my mother or an adult to come into the interrogation room with me. None of those things were allowed, but they just held me in there for I believe it was 12 hours, but according to the documents it was over 10 hours of non-stop um questioning um and and at that point, if you're not conditioned to that, you're just exhausted and want to go home like that's it.

Speaker 2: 10:56

that's it. I mean I I didn't. They didn't really tell me about who the person was, it was would just give me information about. This is what we believed. The eyewitnesses said this is what supposedly had happened.

Speaker 2: 11:26

But none of those violent in Milwaukee. I mean it was things that was going on, so that was like major news at the time. But when it came to me there was hardly any news, any articles, anything about me being incarcerated or a person getting murdered or anything. So none of these things were ever brought to the news. None of these things were ever brought to the attorney. My attorney at that particular time never investigated it. He only met him one, actually three or four times, and all of those times were only in the courtroom. He never went out to investigate the scene. He never did any of those type of things. The courtroom he never went out to investigate the scene. He never did any of those type of things.

Speaker 2: 12:05

So again, it was probably because of my ignorance, probably because of my literacy and a host of. But then I struggled with identity issues where I just didn't know where I belonged in the community. I didn't know how I can be sustained through the lifestyle that I was living because I was from a broken family. So now to be thrown in a broken situation, it was like how in the world can I maneuver through this and how can I navigate through a life that is so cruel and so harsh and the things that I had to endure, the things that I had to see for all those years and things I had to participate in in order to survive? It's like no human being should should be exposed to those type of things, especially when you're innocent of something.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why I wanted to have you on this podcast, because gives everyone perspective. Like there's so many people nowadays that are like I don't know what I want to do. I'm struggling here mentally depression, anxiety, all this stuff and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, most people think anything nearly as difficult. As you went through During that two to three month period during the sentencing. What's going through your head? Did you want to like run away or was that? Yeah, all of the above.

Speaker 2: 13:29

I mean, just imagine, if you will, I woke up. I woke up that Saturday morning. Well, actually, when I went to sleep that night, I woke up with full anticipation of spending time with my two month old daughter and going to perform later on that day. So my whole thought process was wrapped around that I was a kid, I was functioning as a kid and I was thinking as a kid, but I had these great dreams and these great expectations of getting out of the community that I believe that was stagnant towards my growth. And so, once I was incarcerated, it was like everything, every bad thing that anyone had ever spoken about me, that you are never amount to anything, that you are no good, so-and-so, that you'll never learn. All these things became contributing factors during those first few months where I began to believe. Well, if they said I was a killer, then it's obviously something in my personality, it's something in my character that would cause them to look at me that way. And not realizing at that particular time is that one person perception is not my identity.

Speaker 2: 14:34

But I didn't know, how to take hold of that, but instead I embraced it, and when I embraced it I became something that I was totally uncomfortable with.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Yeah, and that's so powerful because there's so many of us every single day like where our bosses think something of us, or our parents think something of us, or our children think something of us. They might all be different identities, but the truth is like what do you think about you? That's right. What do you want to be? And a lot of the time, we always need someone else to guide us in that direction and be like oh, tell me what I should know. You decide what you want to be like. You create whatever life you want to create, and it's kind of a wake-up call for everyone who has done that work and hasn't done that creation. So you're going through this. When would you switch where it's like hold on, they think I'm an animal, I'm gonna try to be an animal like. And then the switch back to wait. Education might like, might be something here and and during you.

Speaker 2: 15:31

You just you just touched, base it on, because all it takes is one person to speak one good word into you and and you believe in, and it begins to germinate and it eventually grows.

Speaker 1: 15:48

There was one person during my five years in the hole there was and what is the hole? Just so people know.

Speaker 2: 15:51

Oh my goodness, the hole is where you're isolated. I mean, you're in prison, but there's a prison inside the prison where you're completely isolated from the general population. There's a prison inside the prison where you're completely isolated from the general population. The only time you're allowed to come out of your cell is to take a shower or to go to rec, and each time that you're removed from your cell, you have to literally kneel down, crawl to the back of the wall, lean your head forward, cross your legs and put your hands behind your back. And so that's when they come in, they put their handcuffs on, they put the shackles on, and then they make sure that the armor that they have on you is secure. So they'll walk you out, put you in this small cage where there's no one but you. They will remove the leg restraints, but they would keep the handcuffs on you, so you'll walk around this small cage, having no interaction with no human beings other than the guards.

Speaker 2: 16:50

And so I did five years in an environment like this, but I didn't. I had no idea. I think and I often say this and I said it in my book that the worst thing that they could have done to me was, gave me a book and a pen and locked me in a place where I had nothing but complete isolation. So there was one or two things that would happen in that point Either you would lose complete function of your sanity, or you would find a way to rise above that. Where you can't, your sanity can't be challenged so, and instead I found a way where I was able to stand on a principle of integrity and truth, and so I held on to all these, all three of these things, for most of my life.

Speaker 1: 17:35

Yeah, I'm sorry, while you're're going through this, do you know it's for five years? Like? How does someone even get in like in the hole, and is it known that it's for a five-year duration, or is it just like I? Do you lose track of date, like? Because to me, the major thing is the expectations of like hey, there's only 300 more days and it's like no really I don't know when this ends.

Speaker 2: 18:00

I mean because I never, because by me being a lifer, we have this saying it was like a prison term that we use calendar. So whenever you say, well, I have a calendar year, that means that you have one year. And so by me being a lifer, I didn't go by years, I had to go by decades, because those were the times where I was eligible for the parole. So, like I would each day, especially in the hold times, completely stops. So now you have nothing to do but sit in this isolation and really think about your thoughts. And that's another thing I learned too over the years is that your thought process is so. It's an important component to who you are and who you are to become.

Speaker 2: 18:48

So, even though I was in a negative place, I've always thought that I will rise above it, because I've always held on to the truth and I've always held on to a vision that I believe that I was given when I was a young kid. So this suffering that I had gone through it was all part of the preparation in order to get me to that point, because I was one of those hard headed kids where when mama tell me you know to do something, I would like stump my feet and walk away. So it was always with an attitude, and so once I came into it was like the reality that once you wake up and you develop an attitude of gratitude, then you begin to look at the needs of other people. You begin to look at okay, today is not really that bad. I may be in the hole for five years, but today is not really that bad. So those are motivational talks that I always do.

Speaker 2: 19:41

I self-talk myself. Wake up in the morning. It's like, well, I don't want to do this, but OK, there's a reason as to why I'm being awakened this morning. There's a reason as to why these tears flow the way they do. There's a reason why I am allowed to be in this isolation for a period of time, and so I just allowed to be in this isolation for a period of time, and so I just had to take the bad part of it and I had to start thinking about myself like I was a monk somewhere in the mountains and I just was in a place where I would just have complete meditation and was studying.

Speaker 2: 20:09

So prison was never a form of like punishment for me, but it was like a form of higher education and elevation as far as spiritually concerned. Once I learned to focus on those type of things, it stopped being about okay, I'm in prison. Falsely, I get that part. That was the reality of it. But there was another reality of it all, too, is that there was other people that were surrounding me, didn't have the answers, but they was looking for an example as to how to rise above, even though everyone and everything around them tells them that you would never do so, and so that had been become a mission field for me in prison, as to rise above. We can do better, we are better. You are a giant, you're a great person, and I think that when we begin to affirm each other, that's when we begin to see the best, and we'll be able to become the best version of you.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Yes, and the biggest takeaway for me there is, if you're listening, like how many situations are you in where you just don't feel like this is the proper one for you? Like how many times do we feel like we're not in the proper place? And that might be true, that might not be true. It might be that you need to get this different mindset, so it's not just the wrong place, but it might be the wrong mindset, which I think is very massive, uh, which a lot of people need to take away because, like we've seen it so many times before, there's so many people living very similar lives, doing similar activities. Some are super happy, some are super sad. Why is that? Because we can confront these ideas and think about things in a certain way that can change our whole perspective.

Speaker 2: 21:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and I think that my, my story is no different than other people. The only difference is is that I had a physical wall that surrounded me, but I was released from the emotional wall that had kept me bound for so many years. But then, once I was released and I saw the emotional prison that a lot of people out here in the community was in and they don't know how to express the trauma that they probably had gone through, or they just don't have that person where they really, really can console them. And when I grew up, there was a lot of opportunities. There was a lot of programs where you was able to inspire people, where you was able to put a person in a position where they was able to figure out, where you was able to put a person in a position where they was able to figure out how to love themselves and how to embrace themselves. A lot of those programs are no longer available in the community, and so that's been my focus point. It's just okay, y'all, because actually the same area where I was locked up, or the same community I was locked up in, I returned back to that community. Oh, wow, same area where I was locked up, or the same community. I was locked up, but I returned back to that community because, yes, there needs to be some type of healing, some type of conversation, because it's a very diverse community and people I get it. They live in their lives the best way they know how they're living out their truth.

Speaker 2: 23:12

But there's still that sadness that comes along with it, because when it comes about waking up in the morning and just going to make a check, everything becomes routine. It's no different than being in prison, where you have to wake up every morning and stand up for count. You may not feel like it, but you know you have to and then you have to go to work. So you have to take on these responsibilities and tell yourself even though I'm making 15 cents an hour, okay, but that's okay for now. So now I transfer those same way of thinking out here Even though I might be making $9 an hour, I'm going to be the best toilet cleaner or I'm going to be the best chef I possibly can be, because that is what other people see.

Speaker 2: 23:53

They see the light in us, and once they see the light in us, that draws them. And when it draws them, then we're able to give them an account as to why we're small, why we're so full of joy, why we're so full of love, and how can I be of an assistance to help you become the best version of you and Jordan, none of these things are easy. It's a lot of tears. It's a lot of times where I doubted myself, I doubted the system. There's a lot of time where I just wanted to end it all, but for some reason I just knew that tomorrow would open up a whole new, different box of love and a whole new, different box of whatever. And a lot of times I had to find a love within myself to love myself, before anybody else was in a position to do so.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's such a major point, because the main, the other thing is here, a lot of people go into relationships and get around people and they're like, yeah, this person makes me happy and it's like, yeah, no, that's horrible. I don't want to hear that like not in a good way or bad way, but like you got to make you happy and then maybe together you can make each other more happy and I, I know more happy is not a thing, but like higher than that, which is really what allows you to be the best you, yes. So it's really that coming down to like, even by yourself, are you optimizing who you are? Are you showing up the best for you? Are you being the best, you being the best, you, and so for you, alfonso, what was what like without this time duration?

Speaker 1: 25:25

Like you go into the hole, what's the thought process? And like when did you get out of the hole and what, what is going on there? Because I feel like that is such a major challenge mentally and just obviously you viewed it as an opportunity to be like, hey, let me learn, which is amazing, and I think everyone needs that. Just how did you, how did you think about this?

Speaker 2: 25:46

um, actually it was. It was this pastor, it was, it was a, it was a chaplain, a prison chaplain, and every week, every friday, he would come down and he would have whatever your religious preference was. He would have different literature and materials and that sort of thing. So he would come down and so what? I despise everything that he represented. I hated him. And so he would stop at. He would stop in front of my cell, and he was, and because all of our names was, was like above our door, so of course they knew our name. So he was like hey, mr James, how you doing? And so I knew he was going to do that.

Speaker 2: 26:21

So I had some urine. I had this milk cup that I had been sitting there waiting on. I said, the moment this guy stopped in front of my cell, I'm going to throw it on him. So he stopped in front of my cell and I threw the urine on him and he did not do anything. His only response was Alfonso, I love you and so do God.

Speaker 2: 26:40

So for probably like three or four months straight, I went berserk with throwing urine on him, and so finally, the last time that I did this, he had came in front of my cell door. He had a chair, but this time he had an extra. He had two towels. One of the towels was wrapped over the back of the chair and then the other towel was wrapped around his neck. And so I timed him. I knew he was going to say something to me and so I threw the urine on him once again. And then suddenly he went, grabbed his chair, sat in front of my cell, took the other, the additional towel, wiped himself with it and say Alfonso, I love you, and so do God. So for four to five months he consistently, every week, he will repeat these over and over until finally it's like man. I don't know why this man is stopping by.

Speaker 2: 27:30

So eventually I opened up to him and I told him, with the materials that he had been leaving behind in my cell. I was like I can't read them. And he was like well, why can't you read? I was like man, I don't know. I guess I dropped out of school. So I gave him every reason, every excuse, but that wasn't enough. And so he said I'll tell you what never say I can't, or never say I won't or I wouldn't. And he said what we're going to do is, from this day forward. He said I'm going to bring you some reading materials down. So he started bringing me coloring books. But on the coloring books you had these pictures, but you had to match them up to these words, like cat hat or whatever. And so I started gaining the confidence I'm just doing this. I was so impressed with learning, but I was so impressed with how this stranger was loving me in the darkest place of my life, and but he didn't know that up until that point.

Speaker 2: 28:23

The night before, literally the night before that, yeah, we exchanged. This happened. I had.

Speaker 2: 28:31

I remember it had gotten so dark and I stood on the toilet and I tried to commit suicide and I remember tying a sheet around my neck and I remember falling to the toilet. But I also remember, like for a short second and it seemed like it was a long, long time I saw my mother on one side and my siblings and my daughter was like what happened? What happened? Why is my father dead? Why is my son dead? And then I saw another person on the other side, which represented the DA, who was like well, he's a coward, he killed himself. And then I remember at that instant the rope, the sheet, had broken, I fell to the toilet and I was like God, I can't even kill myself.

Speaker 2: 29:13

So at that moment I knew that it was something much greater that awaited me. My life wasn't mine to take, but it was mine to share with other people. So I started learning and, before I knew it, eventually, at the fifth year, I was released out of the hold. And once I was released out of the hold, I had to retest again. I had to do like a comprehension test, and the last time I had taken a test, I think I scored like a 3.5 reading overall comprehension. And then they described me as a function illiterate before that. And so this time I went and took the test and I scored a post high school oh wow yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:58

So they threatened to put me in a hole because they thought that I was playing a game or something, and so they brought me another test, but this time the second test was much more challenging than the first and I scored higher on the second test because by this time I was so in love with words, I was so in love with who I was and who I was becoming. But I was in love with who I was and who I was becoming, but I was in love with the fact that this person had planted that seed. So from that point, from what this person, that chaplain, did to me and the whole, began to ignite something more powerful in me that I didn't even know, that was there, and from that point on it was like I was just on a mission I had to with those who didn't know how to read. I was like man, you know I shared your secret at one time, but I know how to help you get out of there. And so I just started being available for any and everybody, and so they started bringing the community in, and the community started hearing me speak, and they surrounded me and they just started. It was just something that was so powerful that I just felt as though, okay, I finally arrived and the last thing I had to do was finally, the doors had to come open and I would pray, I would.

Speaker 2: 31:11

I sat on my bed. I don't know if I shared this with you, but every morning, the moment I walked inside of Green Bay Correctional Institution, every morning, I told people I did not do it. I did not do it, so nobody listened. So I started folding my linen, my mattress, I fold everything in half and I sit on the edge of my bed, and so when the guard come around and do his rounds, I will be sitting on the edge of my bed in a position of readiness. And he would. And one time in particular, he stopped. He was like Mr James, you have a hundred years.

Speaker 2: 31:43

You only been here a couple of years, you're not going home. I said, no, I'm not receiving that. I'm going to always be in a position of readiness until you open the door for me. So for all, for 32 years straight, I was consistent with every morning not only waking up with an attitude of gratitude, but I always woke up, fold my linen, I put my best prison pants on and sit on the edge of my bed in preparation of being released. But I knew, but I always put it in the hands of God because I was like okay, god, when that timing is right, I already know you're going to open up the door.

Speaker 2: 32:19

So what is the things that you have me doing now? I struggle with dysfunction, I mean illiteracy. So that was an obstacle that I knew that I had to overcome. I struggle with I used to stutter so bad and I used to be so ashamed to speak that you know. So those things I had overcome. I overcame depression simply by believing on the inward child and developing that and loving that inward child. And then it begins to work the inside out and then other people begin to see it. Not only see it, but they feel it. It's just like when you come into someone's presence and you know there is something special, there's something unique about it, but you can't quite put your finger on it. That's what it is To me, that's what it feels like.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Yeah, I love that because I think it's so important for us to figure out. Alfonso's going through this and he's not like I'm not ready to go out. I'm ready to leave every single day. But he kept asking what skills are required for me to for this exit. And when we sit there a lot of time it's like oh, did that make money? Did that because we're living a very monetary world and instead of that it should be? Did I improve my skills here? Yeah, did this get me the next level? Did this get me to where I want to go? Did this help me along the way? Am I going to be able to use these relationships for this idea or these skills in something further in life?

Speaker 1: 33:51

And once you start to realize that, then it's like whoa, the game's open and everyone's ready. So you're going through this, you do this transition. At this point, are you still like do like, how are people thinking about it? Like, do people celebrate birthday? Like, how do all these things happen? Like, oh, it's this transition of like there's all these years going on and there's no sense of time and no sense of place. So it's like do they even know?

Speaker 2: 34:20

like, do you even know what day it is or it's just like yeah, it's cold now, it's warm now, it's hot like I mean, yeah, you, just you, you go through those things, but christmas is not christmas, birthdays is not birthdays, you know, even though you try to.

Speaker 2: 34:35

I mean, after missing like 32 birthdays, it's like okay, it was just those things. The only thing I knew was is that every time around that year, around my birthday or I got locked up, july the 27th or around these times, I used my body, used to go, usually, go through something, and even to this day, it's like like, like one o'clock in the morning, I will wake up, um and and, and just go outside and hug a tree, just sit in my car or sit on the porch. It was like, wow, this is really happening, this is I'm. I am really out here, so, but in there, you conscious, I think. I think you, you're, you're too conscious of time, because like a minute out here, it's like 10 minutes in there, you know. So everything is so, so slow and everything is done on routine. And I remember when I first, initially, when I first got excuse me, when I first got locked up again, I was still this 16, 17-year-old boy and I was still, you know, into Christmas and into Easter.

Speaker 1: 35:51

Yeah, I was into those?

Speaker 2: 35:52

Yeah, because my family was still celebrating those type of things. But when you go there, I held on to the memory of it, but I never practiced the tradition of it, because it's just, and like your kid's birthday, you get so sad because you're unable to be there. And then I received a couple of letters that family members died or were murdered, and those are the calls that everybody dreads. And when it happens to stop at your door, it's like, oh my god, yeah so, and you have to numb your feelings. You can't like my family. Whenever they used to come visit me, I had it's, it's.

Speaker 2: 36:35

It's like you're having a dual personality in prison. You have to be stoic. You have to. If you have an any type of emotion, if somebody died in your family, you can't, you can't show any type of weaknesses whatsoever. And then you get around your family in the visiting room for an hour or two and now, within an hour, everyone expect that, all of a sudden, that wall to come down, but it don't come down that easy, so you have to put that protective thing up there.

Speaker 2: 37:01

So I had to literally um, like, hate, hate the things that I love more than anything, you know, and that's not to say that I hated. I hated it, hated my family to the point where I didn't want anything or they did anything to me. But I just had to love them less until I got through that ordeal, because I wasn't in any position to be an example for them. And if I continue to go down that path that I was, even while in prison I made some bad decisions. But it also affected not only my release. It affected me not seeing my family for years and years, oh wow. Me not seeing my family for years and years, oh wow, yeah. So those those things are contributing a factor. It's to wisconsin. It's not really a physical type of prison. It's more of a psychological, more of emotional one. Yeah, and, and, and I think that that's the, that's the worst kind when you get inside did you feel like you always had to be on yeah, yeah, yeah, which is so challenging?

Speaker 2: 38:01

Yeah, and it was super exhausting, it was super exhausting, because now they have these little mirrors in your cells where most guys my age and it's goofy to say, you know, when you come out, we call it the chow hall when everyone come out to eat and these guys used to look in the mirror before they leave their cells just to just to see if they got this tough. Look on, you know. And I remember one time I was probably like 18 or 19, no, about 21, 22, right after they let me out the hole, and I remember sitting in the mirror and I remember practicing, looking mean and know, just not making any eye contact, and I remember thinking to myself wow, my face is tired, why is my face so tired? And then that's when I realized when it takes more muscles in your face to be angry than it is to smile.

Speaker 2: 38:51

So when, I smile and I was like, okay, that's a that, that sort of disarm everybody to let them know, wait a minute. You, you know I am a different, I am of a different generation, I am of a different breed. So I just didn't believe in following the group Always, just, yeah, just been on the outside.

Speaker 1: 39:11

No, absolutely Absolutely. And then for you, where did you start? Obviously you're putting out there, but you said everyone was saying they were innocent. So how did you actually get an opportunity to have these real discussions and like move this process forward to get you finally?

Speaker 2: 39:28

out. Oh, I started writing the West Coast. Well, actually, keep in mind, back in 85, there was still no such thing as the Innocence Project. And back in 85, there was still no such thing as the Innocence Project Didn't exist. Dna didn't exist. The only thing they were able to do back in those days is that microscopically look at something and that was only able to determine whether or not it was a black person, fingerprints or DNA or it was a direct DNA to match a person. Those things didn't exist at the time.

Speaker 2: 40:00

So when I was incarcerated it was like if I didn't file the paperwork or didn't have the finances to get a lawyer or whatever, then I was screwed. I was hopeless, I didn't have any type of hope. So I started and then at this time prison really didn't have a legal. They had a legal law library but there was very few books but more inmates than there was books. And so, because out of desperation, they said, rip pages out. So by the time I go to the law library there is nothing in there for me to read. So I started writing Oprah Winfrey. I wrote I had written letters to Geraldo. Any news shows around that time I think I had written probably like close to 10,000 letters, wow, and I just kept sending them out.

Speaker 2: 40:50

And then finally years, probably like about 20 years, into my incarceration that's when the Innocence Project came around. Years into my incarceration, that's when the Innocence Project came around. And so the warden at one of the institutions I was at got in contact with them and suggested to them that they please take a look at this guy's case because we believe him to be innocent. And so the Innocence Project. I was one of the first five clients that they had in Wisconsin and we started working from there.

Speaker 2: 41:17

But there was a lot of road blocks because Milwaukee was was kept saying that they didn't have any records of me in prison for the murder and I was like I've been here for all these years. So how did the records disappear all of a sudden? So we went, we had to go through those types of things until finally we discovered, um, there was some transcripts, but there were so many things that were missing. We discovered that it was one hundred and forty five physical evidence that was not introduced into the case that could, that could have been beyond a reasonable doubt Prove my innocence. But because of lazy police work and that sort of thing. They kind of let it slip slide through.

Speaker 1: 41:58

So then, from that year 20, it took you 12 years to finally.

Speaker 2: 42:05

Yeah, it took 12 years for them to actually accept the fact that there were some documents that was missing, there were some things that that happened, that transpired not only doing the investigation but doing the actual trial. So now, all of a sudden, these things is finally coming to the light. And then, once I was released in 2017, my partner and I we literally investigated it. We, I went, yes, yes, we went to every, every person that was a witness, every person that you know. We just started searching, and then one thing led us to another thing and then, all of a sudden, we discovered what really happened in the case and why the coverup, and so that's where we are today.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Yeah, yeah, wow, oh. So you have four months, but you have that understanding now, in that peace of mind of getting to know what really occurred now, in that peace of mind of getting to know what really occurred.

Speaker 2: 43:05

That was that. That was the thing, because I used to always and I used to try to envision I like the person um who died. There was never a picture. A photo of him showed in the courtroom. Well, I never saw it. Yeah, I had no idea what he looked like, um, and then the location where it happened, never been there before.

Speaker 2: 43:21

So once I was released, I was able to go to that location, uncover some things, speak to some people in the community. In fact, about a couple weeks ago I went back into that community where this incident happened and I was driving and something just told me to pull over. So I pulled over and it was a group of older people sitting on a porch. So I went to the porch and I greeted them. I was like, oh, it's a beautiful day, I was like man.

Speaker 2: 43:48

And so I asked him a couple of questions about the murder that happened across the street and it was like, oh, it was just a young boy and we don't know what happened to him. I was like, well, I'm that young boy. And they looked at me and they was like we all started crying because they knew then that they had made a mistake and they tried to get in contact with Milwaukee County, but nobody would receive their calls. So that was the first time in 40 years that I had a chance to stand in front of them and we just broke down and cried and I told them I'm not mad at nobody, it's not your fault, you're not responsible for it. And so, yeah, and that's what I've been doing, just meeting with people, and actually we met probably with about 15, about 10 to 12 people who hadn't been involved in the case and each one of us has had signed affidavits pretty much that they apologize for allowing this to happen for so long.

Speaker 1: 44:46

Oh, my goodness. And then what is that process of getting out like? Is there, like, do some people like what does that even look like? Do they give a payment? Is it just like? You're out, like what? What is this experience like? Because I can only imagine that you're sitting there and you're like yeah, yeah, I've been in a constructed world for so long. I don't even know how to do something different.

Speaker 2: 45:09

Yeah, you know, and because the thing, the legal process, was taken so long. So what the Innocence Project had decided to do is that we decided to go to the parole board. I had gone to the parole board 21 times and was denied.

Speaker 2: 45:26

And each time I went to him I've always shared with him the same story over and over and over again. So I figured I was like, well, what if we take what the documents that we do have, which is the DNA, which is the eyewitnesses account, and then we actually built the case and showed what really happened? What if we build these things and present it to the parole board? Let's see what happened? And so, probably like after four or five times of submitting these documents, it just kept getting more and more overwhelmed, to the point where it was like well, we don't even know why we're holding you. You've been a model and you've been a model prisoner for the last 20 plus years. You continue to say that you were innocent of the crime. Now we believe you, so now we're going to parole you.

Speaker 2: 46:14

And so once they paroled me that's when the work for me began, because Innocence Project, their only obligation is to get you released, yes. And so once I got released, it was like they would say okay, alfonso, we have these other people that are in prison that need our undivided time, so we don't have the resources, the money or anything like that to really bother them, so I met a partner. When I was first released, I was still this 16, 17-year-old kid. I never drove a car before, never lived on my own, and so everything was really really fast and new and frustrating because I had missed out my so many years of development.

Speaker 2: 46:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was still stuck. I was this model guy who elevated in prison, who was a success story in prison. But once I got out here, it's like, oh my God, what do I do now?

Speaker 1: 47:07

It was like a time warp.

Speaker 2: 47:09

Yeah, it was a time, warp the cell phones, this thing right here, oh my goodness, it didn't exist. It didn't exist. So, yeah, it was. It's all a learning, it's all a learning, it's all a learning curve. But, um, I mean, I got bumped in outside the head. I made um, for instance, I thought I could still break dance when I got out, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't. My bones had gotten old. So that's how my mind was playing tricks on me. My mind would still tell tell me okay, you're a 17, you're an 18-year-old boy, but then I try to do something that an 18 or 17-year-old boy does, and my body reminds me, my heart reminds me no, you can't return back to those places anymore. So the transition was definitely challenging and is challenging.

Speaker 1: 48:00

Yeah, no, it's a constant thing because it's you don't think about these years. But, like most, people have no idea that when you change environments like that, it's very drastic.

Speaker 2: 48:10

Yeah, very, very drastic yeah, and I, and I definitely, I definitely had no. I mean, I I plan, I prep all these years but I never knew what was on the other side of the wall. I mean, my thing was, I want to get out, I just want to. I don't care what I have to do, if I have to crawl, if I have to do whatever, I don't care if I struggle out there. I just I just want the freedom. I just want the ability to prove that I'm worthy to be a part of this community.

Speaker 2: 48:42

And then, once, once that opportunity happened, it's like, and we investigated it, we just went on. We went to a couple, a few different states. We met with people who had some type of involvement or some type of information about it. We met with them. And again, I mean, everybody is pretty much on board and very apologetic, but I believe that this is a space for me to really talk about what forgiveness look like, not pointing fingers, you know, and there was a couple of supporters in my past.

Speaker 2: 49:16

It was like, well, it was racism. I don't really. I don't want to really cling to the racism stuff. I just want to cling to the fact that it was something bad happened to a human and we move from there, and that's that's. That's the human side of it. That's that's why I I want to talk about, um, what happened, um, how do you overcome those those different challenges in your life? Do Do you point the finger, do you sit back, do you mope, or do you? Or do you dust your knees off and say, okay, I'm, I'm a trooper, I'm strong, I'm determined. This didn't deserve to happen to me. Now I'm going to make my own course. I'm going to make yeah, and that's what it boils down to just knowing who you are and willing to do whatever it takes to get there.

Speaker 1: 50:03

Yeah, I love that because it's so true.

Speaker 1: 50:12

There's so many of us that are so held back and we're in our own prisons in our mind and it's just like you got to realize that you create you, like, no matter where you're at today.

Speaker 1: 50:18

That was five years previous to your decisions and we don't't, we don't. I don't think there's enough accountability. It's like, oh, he got lucky with that, or they got stuck with that, or this got to happen, and so your ability to, even when it's this is like one of the toughest things I've heard from people and like your story and it's like I'm still uh, hey, I'm still accountable for what occurred. Like it's still this accountability thing because, like, if I go playing the blame game, I could be a victim the rest of my life and that's not a very empowering belief for me, because that doesn't allow me to build and create the life I want to in the future, because I'll just constantly keep blaming everyone, which is, yeah, you see it a lot nowadays where everyone's blaming something for somebody. Like hey, there's traffic, and like that person crashed into me and it's like your car's broken you, you crash into them, like it's an, it's an oh it.

Speaker 2: 51:10

It is so insane. And that's something that's like it's. It's all brand new. It's like you look into the eyes of people and you see their souls. You see the woundedness behind it, but you see something else that comes out. It can be in a form of anger, it can be in form of depression, but they just don't know how to get it out. And it's like these young people they have all these dreams and this vitality and this system being, but then, all of a sudden, something in life comes on them and it deters them from what their purpose and what their vision is. Now they hold on, they cling to that unforgiveness, they cling to the fact that, well, I was wrong. Ok, I think ninety nine, point nine percent of us has been wrong one way or another in this life. But where do you go from there?

Speaker 2: 51:58

It was, it was, it was some wisdom that a person shared with me one time. I was so bitter, I was so angry, I was like man, why did you do that to me? And then this person left and then he came back like a week later and he stopped by my cell like nothing happened and he told me he's like Alfonso, you spent a whole week of wasted energy mad at me for saying something to you a week ago. Just imagine if you had channeled that energy to something positive and thought on those lines you wouldn't have been miserable like that. And so it was something that clicked on me when he said that and I was like no, I'm not going to let nobody rent space in my head because now you're giving them authority to do whatever or say whatever to you.

Speaker 1: 52:44

A hundred percent and that's so powerful because I know people thank God it was only a week. I know people have dealt with that for years and then, even if it's someone who passed away, they're like blah, blah, blah, blah and it's like dude, there's no one to talk to, it's just you. You got to figure this one out on your own here, right? It's true. It's true, and it's one of the major things for me that I always found super interesting about this is like we talked about it a little bit on the pre-call but, like, as people leave, they, they have a hard time with this acclimation, so they decide to come back because they enjoy the, the rigidness. So when you left I know it's something that you wanted to do for so long how did you? Obviously you went through the investigation process, but like, what's that like? How do you even think about like a job or a house or any of these things? Like because it's all? So does the project, the Innocence Project, help you out? How did all that work for you?

Speaker 2: 53:50

Once I was released, I was pretty much on my own. I had to figure some things out, and then I was at a mindset where I had been in prison by myself. My mother wasn't in a cell with me, my friends or nobody, so I had to figure out how to take care of Alfonso. And when I got out, I still had that mentality where I had to figure out how to take care of me. And I was.

Speaker 2: 54:14

Milwaukee had changed so much it was a lot of places that that wasn't there anymore. So I'm, I'm the navigation on the phone, didn't know nothing about it. So I'm, I'm the navigation on the phone, didn't know nothing about it. So I'm getting lost, like two blocks away from the places I was destined to go. So I got out. I was like man, I don't know what I'm going to do.

Speaker 2: 54:33

So the first thing I did was I went to a church. I volunteered they have um, because I have a culinary arts degree and I went to a church and I volunteered for that hot food program. But they was like well, we have nobody. Well, we have a person, but we do need a janitor. It's like okay, so they didn't have any chemicals. And so I went and purchased some chemicals with my prison money release money and I bought a couple of rags and I went in the bathroom and I cleaned the bathroom. I went in other areas of the church and I cleaned those areas and they was like, well and mind you, nobody knew I was in prison, had gone to prison. Nobody knew this. I was just trying to show my work ethic and my character, and so for about a couple of weeks I continued to do that and then finally they came and they said well, do you mind sharing a story, if you have a story with the circle of group of people? I said, yeah, I don't mind. So I went to talk to the circle of group at the church and before we finished the whole room was just bawling. We were just crying. It was like we didn't know you was in prison. I was like because I'd rather for you to get to know me first In regards to what my reason was for going to prison. I just wanted people to get to know me, and so once that happened, it was like everything began to open.

Speaker 2: 56:03

I went from making 15 cents an hour to then, when I was released, I made $9 an hour, which is not sustainable at all for a decent life. But I was okay. I was okay and I started getting promotion after promotion, after promotion. Then I started making myself available to not only food programs but if there was any type of counseling, um or mentorships or youth programs or anything in the computer, a community. I tried to make myself available. But I was on the other end. I was struggling with rent, I was depression, I was struggling with gas, I was struggling with all these other things, struggling with gas, I was struggling with all these other things, but I was determined to show up. I don't care what I was going to show up and be the best version of me. And so, as a result of that, this is where we are today.

Speaker 2: 56:54

Now it's like we're writing a book working on a podcast and you know, and the host of now I get to travel and share my story and so, and then I met great friends, like you, my friend. So it's just so many great things from hard work, from hard work, yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:15

And that's kind of what I want everyone to realize is that the path is never the same for anyone and what you're doing today might not be a reflection of what you're doing tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 57:25

But there are challenges and there are struggles, but, like, through working through that and getting through those points, then it starts to become optimal and you're able to do these things and you're able to get to that next level and that next step. So I think it's super important for everyone to realize this, because sometimes we're so hard on ourselves and we're like, by 22, I haven't like made all this money yet. And it's like you're 22 like give it a break. Yeah, it's not always the gauge of like let's gauge, because I think in america we have this problem where we gauged a lot on like hey, the more money you have, the more successful you are, the more happy you are, which isn't true. It comes down to these relationships and who we are and what we want to become. So it's like how do you find that joy button and keep pressing it, like Alfonso's doing where he's like I don't care, I'm going to go help these people.

Speaker 2: 58:15

Yeah, it is what it is yeah, and that's the key. That's to me, that's always been the key, because I grew up in a place where we had hot meal programs in the community. My mother it wasn't all the time that my mother was able to put a hot meal on the table, so we just walked down the street to the church where other families sat and we ate wonderful hot meals. And at Christmas time they took the kids to shopping and gave them some great toys and then, most importantly, they came to the kids' home or the family's home and spent time with them. So it was very visible in the community and those are the things that I miss.

Speaker 2: 58:54

So I was raised up on that type of thing where when you're in a position, you give back, even when you're not in a financial position. You give back as long as you have health, because your just reward is going to be. From that young person who look at you one day walking across that stage getting his diploma, his or her diploma, it's like I want to thank him for believing in me. So those are the rewards. That monetary stuff it comes and goes, but the soul of man, the legacy of you, it stays forever, whether it's good or bad.

Speaker 1: 59:28

Yeah, yeah. And the other major thing I want everyone to realize here is during the story, alfonso talks about the pastor who came and helped him. The pastor might not even realize what he's done because he talked to so many different people and he was doing this on the day to day. So my point here is like, if you can go there and be an inspiration to somebody or someone like you, they don't have to be like you're an inspiration. It's just like, hey, you went and helped them, yeah. Then you start to realize you're like, oh, like I might be that pastor, I might be that random person who inspired and changed someone's life because they gave me the trajectory to get there.

Speaker 1: 1:00:08

So, like, when you go and you find someone like me and my fiance are walking down the street the other day and there's this kid and he's maybe like 12, 13 years old and he's like I'm trying to raise money for this camp and he gives like a whole, like minute or two minute speech. And I look at my fiance I'm like what'd you think? Yeah, and she's like did a pretty good job. I'm like I think you did a good job too. So then I'm like here's a dollar. And then I'm like do you have venmo? So you had venmo.

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

So I gave him 10 bucks. And she's like why did you give him 10 bucks? And I'm like, because the 10 bucks doesn't mean anything. It means so much more to him than it does to me. Not saying that I don't respect money and all that stuff, but it was just like this kid might have been walking down the street it's hot, as can be in Tampa, florida and he might have been like dude, this sucks. So many people have said no to me. And there's that one guy who's like well, I asked that guy and he gave me some money. I can go ask another guy, I can go find another girl, and it's that little token of like dude. People sit there and don't realize how much they have. Like look in your closet, why do you have a hundred shirts? You wear five, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

You know what I mean, and that's the that's and that's the, that's the. That's the key, because I mean my, my childhood wasn't the worst. It was some things. That was that was. You know, sometimes kids want something they see on TV, or they see a pair of shoes or a pair of pants that they want, but my mother really couldn't find those things.

Speaker 2: 1:01:37

A lot, of, a lot of things that I wore was like secondhand and I remember I had two pair of pants and three shirts and I had to wear that for, oh my goodness, months and months. And the kids are so cruel in school where they notice, and so I started getting teased and that sort of thing and I was like one of these days I'm going to have so many pair of pants and shoes that people will never tease me again. And the first thing when I got out, I went and bought me like 20 pair of shoes, 20 pair of pants, 20, you know. And when I bought it I was like, oh my goodness, this is just a waste. And I took half of those clothes that I bought and I went and gave it out to people that I knew that needed so and and that's how it. Everything just keeps me balanced like that, when it's because it's real.

Speaker 1: 1:02:28

Yeah, for sure. And the further people get along in life, they start going I need this, I need this. And you don't realize what, how much further. Everyone, like you can get a hand up. But you can also give a handout and like you can help people out and like I just think, like your story and stories like this, where it's like, dude, don't be like I can't share anything, like, no, you can totally share, and it's like, well, then, give me anything in return.

Speaker 2: 1:02:58

Good, yeah, good, that's the point I don't want anything in return. Good the giver's gain, good.

Speaker 1: 1:03:01

That's the point. I don't want anything in return. That's the point. The giving yeah, absolutely so, alfonso. This has been absolutely amazing. So where can people learn more about you or learn about your book? What's going on with all this? Where can people reach out to you or hear about you or anything?

Speaker 2: 1:03:21

We got a couple programs that we're working on now. One is called Unfragile that's like my business name and we got the word unfragile, which simply means unbreakable and able to sustain, and it's a point of strength. So we pretty much connected with not only my prison experience, but it also represents the prism that others are in out here, whether they realize it or not. So what we do is we create a space where people is able to come if they want to come for a couple of days, and just we have a retreat by Lake Michigan. It's gorgeous, it's on 32 acres, and so what we're trying to do is just build a healing center. No matter what your background, financial situation is, we're making it available for everyone. So what this entails is that we have 24-hour counselors that will be with the person or the couple.

Speaker 2: 1:04:27

We have yoga classes, we have couples yoga. I mean there's a host of other things, but the most important thing is that we have a circle, and that circle consists of everyone sitting in that circle and pretty much just talking if they're comfortable, and so we have food that we also plan on preparing, and so we have a host of other things. So right now, in addition to that I'm doing a lot of traveling. Oh, we're in the process right now of setting up all the information and that sort of thing. So hopefully by next week we'll have all those things up.

Speaker 1: 1:05:06

All good, yeah, what you can do is just, you just send me that over text or an email and we'll be. We'll be good to go. But, alfonso, this has been absolutely incredible. I really do appreciate the time and the stories are just, it's something different, man, it's something different and it's definitely a story and I do want to leave everyone with this. So, like Tony Robbins, one of his top books is that he recommends to everyone's his man search for meaning by Viktor Frankl. And he talked about this guy and basically what ended up happening was he was in the Holocaust and he was in a concentration camp. Happening was he was in the holocaust and he was in a concentration camp and he talks about his survival and how he thought about these things and how he overcame that mindset and overcame those challenges. And in our pre-call, when I spoke to alfonso, I thought the same thing. I was like, dude, you remind me so much of victor frankl. He goes. Little did I know victor frankl actually came and spoke to me 30 years ago.

Speaker 2: 1:06:03

Yes, yes, he came inside the prison, one of the most amazing human beings you would have ever met.

Speaker 1: 1:06:10

Yeah, no, absolutely. Because here's the thing and this is one of the reasons I love doing the podcast is because it passes the stories on, it lets people hear these things and it lets people things grow. So I'm grateful that you came and shared some time with us and I'm really looking forward to seeing what we can do together. Incredible, yes, awesome.