Life on Mars - A podcast from MarsBased
Life on Mars - A podcast from MarsBased
080 - Balancing creativity and business in Spain, with Brian Farrell (Farco)
The podcast is back after a much needed (albeit unintended) hiatus. For more details, listen to this episode (in Spanish) or wait until an AI translates it for you.
Until then, listen to a few of the episodes that we had recorded prior to the break, which are still of high relevance, the first of which features our friend Brian Farrell, co-founder of Farco Studio.
What if the secret to thriving in the design market lies in balancing American ambition with Spanish work-life harmony? Join us as we sit down with Brian Farrell from Farco Design Studio. Brian's remarkable journey—from spearheading digital transformation at BBVA to founding his own studio in Spain—provides a unique lens into the shifting landscape of design. We explore the shared challenges our boutique companies face in a market where retainer contracts are dwindling and project predictability is more elusive than ever.
Navigating the complexities of working with large corporations, Brian and Àlex delve into procurement processes and the cultural nuances that set American and Spanish business practices apart. We share our personal battles with imposter syndrome and discuss how past credentials can influence our professional paths. Highlighting the benefits of blending American drive with Spanish balance, we illustrate how this fusion fosters a passionate and sustainable approach to business. We also address the often overlooked yet crucial aspect of meticulous attention to detail in design—how print experiences can sharpen a digital designer’s eye for precision.
Lastly, we reflect on the challenges of transitioning from a hands-on designer to a business owner. From redefining productivity and managing new responsibilities to learning the art of outsourcing and automation, this episode is packed with insights. Brian shares his vision of promoting Spain’s incredible design talent on a global stage, encouraging listeners to recognize the diverse and vibrant creative community Spain has to offer. If you’re navigating the turbulent waters of the design market or simply passionate about creativity, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and inspiration.
🎬 You can watch the video of this episode on the Life on Mars podcast website: https://podcast.marsbased.com/
Hello everybody, welcome to Life on Mars again. Alex, thrilled to have you here and, as we announced, we're bringing back the podcast. And, as we announced too, this is one of the episodes that we had recorded a few months back but that didn't see the light of day. I think the content is evergreen anyways, and because in this episode we're talking to Brian Farrell from the Varco Design Studio, one design studio that we got very close to in the last months, if not years. We respect them very much. We think they're a company to look up to. They have very, very similar values as the ones we have here at MarsBased. They're super boutique, they work mostly American clients, but they run from Spain and we compare models.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But more than anything, this conversation is about the shift in the market that I have been preaching about in the last months, where we have to sell more and more often because we are not able to sell retainers anymore or companies aren't able to sign retainer contracts anymore. Projects are being canceled, downsized, postponed. So at the receiving end of all these projects the providers, the companies like MarsBased, like Farco we are not having the best time of our lives, to be honest Most competitors to similar companies that we have here in, either in Barcelona or internationally, have shut down, downsized. They have had to let go a lot of people. That's not our case, but it's true. It's becoming a real struggle to sell projects and to have a prediction of what's going to happen in the next three months, and that's not ideal. So we discussed this with Brian. We discussed sales, we discussed leadership, communication, company culture and how to run a boutique company. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to our friend, brian Farrell. Brian, welcome to the show. How are you?
Brian Farrell:doing. Thank you for having me. I'm doing good.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:We're live, live on Mars, the podcast of MarsBased . We almost worked together on a project. We got to know you guys because of a joint proposal we launched for a potential client. Unfortunately that didn't go through, but we like your company so much. I feel like there's many parallelisms between Parco and MarsBased and we want to give voice to this kind of companies, because we don't get the press, we don't get media coverage, we don't get, you know, all of this attention that all VC-backed companies get. So maybe start introducing Farco and how did you start and what you guys do.
Brian Farrell:Sure, yeah.
Brian Farrell:I mean, we were really excited about potentially partnering with you guys as well, and hopefully we'll get to find an opportunity in the future to do so. Um, but at least we got connected to share knowledge and um beers at least um, since we both like craft beer. So we are in our fourth year at Farco. I'm an American, I'm from Atlanta, georgia, and I was up and down the East Coast different agencies, my whole career, and about nine years ago the bank BBVA, who has a headquarters here in Madrid, was starting their digital transformation. So they did a global talent search and they were bringing over a lot of different Americans at senior positions, and I just happened to be one of them. So at the time I was living in Washington DC working for a digital agency and then ultimately moved over to Madrid to start and lead the design team internally at the bank, and I was there for four years. It was this magical time at the start of their digital transformation, where they were putting a lot of investment and visibility into design and innovation. We were able to really change everything at the bank, from the methodologies down to all the different digital products, to the identity, but it was really the main goal there was shifting the internal culture from design as this entity of production to really design as at the center of the culture of the company, and I think that was really the beautiful shift that we saw, and I think, ultimately towards the end when I at least of my time there in 2020, bbva was really looked at as sort of this reference towards digital transformation. They were one of the first ones that actually put high investment into it, and so I ultimately, at the end of the four years, just felt like we had changed most of the stuff and my time was, you know, my my work there had was done.
Brian Farrell:I was looking for a new challenge. I was thinking about potentially um asking and finding a U S agency that would want to open a office in Spain, because I think part of something I realized before moving to Spain was that it wasn't really on the radar of creative circles in the United States. We often thought about really big creative hubs in the US, but outside of the US we would think of London and Berlin, sometimes we would talk about Tokyo, but no one was talking about Spain. So when I took the role at the bank and I knew I had to grow like a really large creative team, I was unsure because I didn't know any of the creative community of product designers or developers, and so that was one of the, I think, most beautiful surprises that I had in terms of moving here was getting connected to all of these really talented communities, and so for me, it was about that was sort of like what sparked the ideas how do I bring together all of the most talented designers and developers that are within these different communities and put it on the global radar, particularly in the United States, because that's sort of you know where my network is, particularly in the United States, because that's sort of you know where my network is.
Brian Farrell:And so at first, I was thinking about just going to one of the agencies that I had worked for and presenting this idea of okay, well, why don't you come over to Spain and open up an office? And then, ultimately, what I decided was well, why not just go at it myself and see if I can do it myself? So that is ultimately what I decided to do, and that's what has led us to here four years later.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But yeah, you didn't do it alone, right? So take me back to the first days of Farco. Who did you create it with and how did you convince him?
Brian Farrell:Well, so the very first day of the studio was the first day of our confinement here in Spain for COVID. So I think it was like yeah, it was crazy.
Brian Farrell:Well, I mean, I think you look at that and you're like, oh, that was like horrible timing. But when you really look back at it, like I had no overhead, I had no office, no employees, I had no clients, but it wasn't as stressful. I think for me as a business owner it was a lot less stressful than actually having a business at that point because I didn't like I was saying I had zero expenses. And then it gave me a good three, four months where the whole world was basically paralyzed, just to talk to people and network, and I think it actually ended up being great because everyone was locked in their homes. I was able to get in touch with investors and venture capitalists and equity people and CEOs of other agencies, because we had so much free time.
Brian Farrell:We were all stuck at home, and so I got to talk and get connected with a lot of people during those first three, four months and I really just took the pressure off. It wasn't about making money and getting clients, it was just about like talking to a lot of people and learning, and then ultimately, what happened was sort of towards the end of 2020, I was, I mean, obviously the case study of BBVA helped me a lot in terms of finding our first clients, which ultimately was Repsol, which is, you know, a really large energy client here in Spain who was trying to undergo and start their own digital transformation. And ultimately, how it started was I had gotten connected with the head of design there. She had asked me to participate in a pitch for their commercial web, their main commercial website, and I remember I was like a one man team at that point, and so I was. I was, I had my slot in the calendar to pitch our proposal, our mine proposal.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Yeah, it was our right, Me and my company.
Brian Farrell:No, she literally wrote me and she goes because, like in the invite, which was like all the heads of the different departments of Repsol, and it was just me, and she was like, can you invite other people from your company to this meeting? It looks like because they were talking with all of these, like the big digital agencies of Madrid, you know, and they're all pretty well known, but they, you know, were bringing their head of technology and head of design and head of strategy, and it was just like Brian Farrell in the invite. And I was like I can't, I'm like a one-man team right now. So I pitched Well, you told them no, I told her. I was like listen, I'm just like a one-man person at this time. I'm putting together a really good team. I think we'll do a really good job for you, but at this point I don't have, it's just me. And so, anyways, I went into the pitch, I pitched our proposal. I didn't win it. Obviously, they wanted to go with a more credible agency, or at least one that was around for a little bit longer, but they really liked my proposal and so what happened was, it's like maybe a month later, a month and a half later, she called me back up and she was like the agency we went with is not doing a good job. You have two weeks to show us what you can do.
Brian Farrell:And the thing that sort of was like just I don't know just worked out time-wise because like right before that I had asked my partner to come on. He was a guy that I had hired at BBVA. He was like one of the best designers and just best people in terms of thought and creativity that I had worked with, and I had asked him to come join me. We didn't have any clients at the time but I just said, listen, let's take a risk. I'll hire you for two months, let's just see if we can drum up business together.
Brian Farrell:And literally the day he started was the day I got the email from Repsol saying you have two weeks, show us what you can do. And so it was just like that. Ultimately, that timing was just perfect for us because the two of us worked for those two weeks, put together an incredible proposal of how we would shift their commercial website and we won the project. And that sort of like really sparked the whole company because after that was our first project in the studio was like the main commercial website of this energy giant of Spain. And then that just turned into like we redesigned really all of their different digital touch points and then you know that sort of like steamrolled into hiring employees and getting new clients, and so but you know, the real reason why they hired you is because you could invite two people to the conversation.
Brian Farrell:Yeah, I know, I do find myself I do think it was funny, because it was like I was like I don't know, going on that sometimes I feel like I'm not one to not do something out of fear, and a lot of times fear provokes me to actually do something even more because I don't know, I'm just, I don't like making decisions or not doing something based out of fear. And so, like I do remember myself in that meeting with them and it was in Spanish, obviously I was trying to um, present our ideas and proposal in Spanish, and obviously that's not even my, my native language, and it's secondary to me, and but you know it all works itself out, but it's well, it's secondary to me and but you know it all works itself out, but it's well.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:It's funny, what a coincidence that your first line was repsol. It's our last client. We just signed with repsol right now. So, uh, this kind of like a uh the the news I can bring to to to this episode, um, but it's.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:It's weird though that such a big client would sign a company that was emerging, right, because usually these big corporations, they have their procurement processes and you have to undergo this like three-month cycle of. You know, talk to this person, these others send certificates. You have to comply with this with that minimum revenue, minimum years of existence. So typically, if you haven't been around for five years, big corporations are going to hire you. Probably in design they make more exceptions, but at least in development I know we started getting a lot of corporates to contact us in year five.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Before year five we worked for two or three of them, but we were kind of like the exception right, because where there is a process, there's also a workaround, right, where there is a procurement process, there's always a fast tracking oh, we really need you. Then you know, we did that for Orange, we did that for a banking institution, we did that for another corporate here and there. But usually it's like oh no, you need to be like five years old as a company. You need to do at least one million in annual revenue to make sure that you're a legit company. They didn't have these requirements for maybe it was because COVID there were loser requirements, or just because in design usually they don't have that.
Brian Farrell:I don't know if it was a matter of like pre or post COVID, because I didn't have a business pre COVID, post-covid, because I didn't have a business pre-COVID. But there's definitely a procurement process and we had to go through and present legal paperwork in terms of employee requirements or security requirements, all of that kind of stuff, but it was never around the solvency of the company. Now we have lost pitches here in Spain, particularly related to the government, because of solvency in our early years, because we just didn't have enough revenue to participate. But the corporations that we've worked with and we've really only worked with corporations here in Spain since the beginning, corporations here in Spain since the beginning We've never lost or not been able to work with one of them because of revenue or our age.
Brian Farrell:I think maybe it is because of I mean, we are always. Our entrance was always design and particularly related to design system. Many of our contracts here in Spain are are like designers over a year where they will go in and be part of the team to help evolve a design system or a specific digital product. So I don't know if it's because of that type of contract a specific digital product. So I don't know if it's because of that type of contract or if it's the department within the company. But our size or age has never really limited us here in Spain in terms of working with really large corporations.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:As an American, you probably face this cultural shock of you had an upper hand on negotiation, perhaps, or adoption of risk, whereas Spaniards are typically more risk averse. Right and probably when you said I am not one to calculate my decisions based on the fear factor. Right, and so a Spaniard would be like more conservative perhaps, and so maybe these I'm not saying this is a fake, it till you make it right, because you are super transparent about I'm a one man show, I'm just putting up together this business. But another person could probably say like, yeah, we right, because we are a team, we are a company and we got these credentials and you also had one ace up your sleeve, which was the great work that you did at BBVA. So probably those credentials played in your favor, but I don't know.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:In comparison, when we started, I felt I took a different approach, and maybe because I had more imposter syndrome and that's something I still suffer from 10 years in, don't get me wrong but I didn't play my credentials from past companies because I didn't want to be associated to Deloitte and other companies that worked for it in the past. I really don't want to have anything to do, but probably they would have won us projects in certain cases because it's large projects and whatnot, and we're starting with a blank slate at Mars Base. That was probably the experiment of the first year. So how did you play these cultural differences and do you think that you had also an advantage? Because there's the typical fascination for DX, for America here. Right, you hire an American, you'll pay twice as much for exactly the same work, which is because it's in America. It's kind of like hiring IBM nobody gets fired for doing so. Right, what's the worst that could happen?
Brian Farrell:Yeah, I'm sure all of those factors played in Definitely as an American working in the Spanish system and having succeeded here and lasted, because a lot of times, like I was saying back in 2016, working in the Spanish system and having succeeded here and lasted because, you know, a lot of times, like I was saying back in 2016, when BBVA was starting their transformation, they brought over a lot of Americans at the same time, all at like really high levels CMO, coo, head of product, all of those and after two years, like there was maybe, I think, 12 to 15 of us, after two years, I was the only American left. I was the only one. That really fact that I've lasted and been successful in the Spanish system. But I think it's also one of those things where I've realized that the merger of American and Spanish culture is such a beautiful fusion and it's like the absolute best cultural fusion that I've seen, because I feel like you know, the standard image you have in American is this like super ambitious, goal oriented, career driven person.
Brian Farrell:And I think also the image you have of a Spaniard is like this person who really places value on work-life balance, and they really understand the value of disconnecting, which I also think is, like, so important. And so when you like, merge those two cultures, you get these. And so when you like, merge those two cultures, you get these people who are super passionate both about work and life, and you get people who are career oriented but also diverse in their interests, because they're not so singularly focused. And so I've always really valued this fusion because I've also seen how it has evolved me as a person and how I approach life. But also now at Farco, we place a heavy emphasis on merging these cultures. So we work significantly with the United States, we work significantly with bringing teams of Americans together with our team here and creating these distributed teams, diverse teams working together, because that, ultimately, I think, is that fusion is so beautiful and it's so apparent with these teams that are working together.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:It's funny because in here we have certain similarities, I would say, because, I mean, I spent a month a year in San Francisco, in the Valley. That's where we kind of like absorb some of the ideas that then we implemented in the company. We created the company in 2014, but conceptualized it a couple years before in 2014, but conceptualized it a couple years before and so we were kind of like one of the first companies to bring in such like a super cohesive idea of company culture. Back in 2014, nobody was talking about company culture in Spain, nobody knew what that meant. There were no remote companies, or very few of them, certainly no office-less companies, right. So I understand this and, as somebody who sells, also to americans, that they appreciate that we are not the typical spanish, not only americans. I mean, I've heard that from several other countries, like you know, uk, sweden, finland, all these other countries also. I've got this image of spain like good for partying and holidays, but not for business. We all know, know that. We know the stereotype. Our role here is to help to dilute this stereotype and just make it so that you know, good business quality can also come from this country, right?
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But anyways, going beyond that, there are certainly a few aspects that will help. You know you being native to America and selling to American clients who speak the same language. But also you know the initial cultural shock is different the pacing in communications, the wording of the emails, what is expected, regulations and other non-so-tangible stuff that you can in a negotiation. You know that probably Americans want to cut to the chase, right, they want to get more. They're pretty efficient about that, as Brits take longer paths around the negotiation here. Talk about the weather, whatnot?
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Spaniards, we like to have 17 conversations before the actual contract discussion, right? So a lot of these cultural differences matter a lot, but most of your I that's? That's a question. I assume most of your business comes from from the US, so I assume that this cultural affinity or understanding it's good for your business, because you're like, yeah, no, do you need to tell me all about this? I know how to, how US corporations breathe. I know how US companies work. I'm American, know how us companies work, I'm american, right? So I guess that that helps in the negotiation I think definitely.
Brian Farrell:I mean, I think most of our us clients also are people that I've worked with in the past, so there's like there's alreadya trust built up just through working together. But those, those that are completely new, I think definitely the fact that you would be working with a company that's owned by an American and that probably has certain cultural behaviors that are similar to those of an American, probably reduces any type of uncertainty of working with a company outside of the United States, for sure. But to your point around bringing back this idea of culture here to Spain from your time in San Francisco, I think is really important and obviously I think the industry in general is changing here in Spain and I think employers are starting to value employees a little bit more. I absolutely love living in Spain. Obviously, I have chosen to live here, I prefer to live here.
Brian Farrell:But I think one of my biggest criticisms from the beginning, and something that I always notice, is it's a little bit of a abusive labor market and I think, where employers were taking advantage and not really valuing or showing value towards their employees. And you know, I think it stems back to your earlier point in terms of, like Spaniards, really thriving and placing a high importance on stability and security. And you know, I think, if you really wanted to get back into, like, where this stems from it's, you know, 50 years ago you were in a dictatorship, you know. And so I think that's that long ago. And so, like, the older generations have always had this mindset of stability and like, if you have a job at a bank or you have a job at a big corporation, like you would never think about leaving it.
Brian Farrell:And I think that's also why, like here in Spain, like the most, one of the most coveted jobs is a government employer, the Funcionario, and it's because you will never lose that job which, like in the United States, you would never tell someone you would want to go work for the government.
Brian Farrell:No one wants to work for the government, but it's because there's this mindset here of stability. And I think that has also provoked this abusive, or more abusive labor market, because employers know that they will never lose that employee and so they can treat them however they want. And so for me also, what I'm trying to do and we're super small and it's not like I'm going to make a big impact on this sort of cultural shift, but I do want to do my part in it and even though I can make a little ripple in terms of really creating a culture at a Spanish company that places huge importance on valuing the employee and compensating the employee for doing good work, to me is super important and actually it reminds me I was. Do you know the company Tierra? It's a like a burrito place.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Well, so anyways, in the US, no, no, it's here.
Brian Farrell:It's all through Madrid. There's some. It's basically it's more or less a fast food chain, but for those Americans it's basically like Chipotle, but it's super, super successful.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:They call it Tierra Burrito, right, something like that. Yeah, exactly, but it's a fast food chain.
Brian Farrell:It's like blowing up here in Spain, and so he's a friend of mine.
Brian Farrell:He's an American, but he's also bringing over this cultural mindset of career growth within the company and really valuing the employees. And so he told me that he sat down with the head of McDonald's here in Spain and the guy from McDonald's went to him and he was like you know, I'm like you're making me treat my employees better because they're all leaving to go work for you. And I was like that would be the most beautiful compliment that any couldn't could ever give me If, like another agency at some point comes to me and says, listen, brian, like you're making me treat my employees better because, or pay them better because of the way that you're treating your employees. I think it's like that would be, hands down, the goal.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:We are small raindrops in a big ocean of corporate bullshit, right, and so the rippling effect we can create is relatively small, not to say minuscule, but I think we can have some impact, right, because it begins in the individual. Then we can expand, you know, to your point. This is a brilliant example and I don't know if that will ever happen to us, but certainly I know that we are changing the industry very modestly, but we are, because you guys probably are introducing new design systems to the market. You have introduced more like a boutique approach to design compared to the I mean design agencies, to my understanding, which is pretty limited, but I've always conceptualized as something like very boutique.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Right, probably there are super big generalizations, but because you work and you optimize for creativity, I don't think you can create a kind of like a mold and a kind of cookie cutter framework and just replicate it and grow heavily and whatnot, the way big consultancies do or development consultancies do. They're like you know, I just buy developers and then just do giant roll-ups of different agencies and consultancies and put them all together and we'll figure out, because we optimize for productivity, not for creativity. Therefore, we can scale this very, very high, and so I think there was more space to grow as a boutique development agency, like we did, and to bring this different approach and have no office, optimize for employee happiness and all of that than for design agencies. I don't know if I'm in the right or I'm in the wrong. What's your perception of these? Your market was like? What was your differentiation? Yeah, with regards to other boutique agencies.
Brian Farrell:Yeah, what was your differentiation with regards to other boutique agencies? Yeah, well, I mean, this insight sort of came to me when I was at BBVA, because, even though we were growing a really large internal design team, there was just too much work and we had to work with a lot of different vendors, both really big ones and then also really boutique ones. And something I always saw is when we would go with the big ones that could cover all aspects of the project end-to-end, we would be given the deliverable and even though we would be able to implement it immediately into our systems, we were always left like the quality is average and so we would go in and have to like elevate the quality and design of it. Um, and then when we would work with the smaller boutiques which I love supporting and loved working with them because the creativity was so beautiful we would be given the final deliverable and even though the quality was amazing, it was clear they had no idea of around large systems and so we would have to go in and like reconfigure it in order to implement into our systems, and so that was sort of like.
Brian Farrell:The insight to me is like there's there's this space in the market for a small boutique who is still um. Main focus is quality, and it's it's not about you know profit and building large teams or you don't really know if you're getting the A team or the D team but that also knows how to implement creativity and scale design at a macro level. And so that's really where we're trying to play in the space in terms of we're a small team, we're 10 people, but we're able to do really big work because we know from working at really large corporations how to systemize our design so that it can be implemented in those systems no-transcript, and my partners used to work also in big consultancies and I think that the main thing that we've got in common here as an agency we're boutique and we're small because we want to be small, we want to keep it small.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:We could have Mars Base. You know, we're 10 years old, we're a team of 20. We could have grown to 50, perhaps, right, if we so had wanted, but maybe we would also have suffered setbacks and had to scale down, maybe because of the market downturns, because of crisis, because of large client just switching providers and whatnot. We never wanted this. We wanted to always be smaller than we should be very consciously about this, because this way you keep agency ownership and quality and, at the same time, you've got the best gray matter that you can invest in producing systems at scale right. Right, because I, you know, in the last 24 months and we discussed this over beers the other time most of the boutique development agencies, they have disappeared. They either shut down because, when they went out of business, because they got tired, or because they were like, oh, there were tailwinds for so many years. Now there are set winds and we kind of like, oh, we married to somebody else, we, we got tired of this Right. Many years now there's headwinds and we kind of like oh, we merged with somebody else, we, we got tired of this, right. I'm talking about companies like karumi, like code gram, like um, like some other, some other companies that were super boutique and they specialize in this and they're like, after 10 years, we're not just not going to compete anymore and, um, my point being, most of these companies, they were extremely good in the technical side, but they were not that great in business.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:I'm not saying these two weren't. They had really really large clients. But from the employer's point of view, you at BBBA, you have to choose sometimes between the large, generic eccentric that can give you the end-to-end and they have the budget, they have their team to start tomorrow. They can produce things at scale, but the quality sucks and then go for the really niche. I'm not putting these words in your mouth, I'm saying this myself.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But then the boutique agency are like, yeah, brilliant, looks fantastic, but this doesn't scale. I need three more people tomorrow. You guys can't deliver this right. And so maybe we have, because we have this past in the corporates, you and I or my partners now you and your partner too. Then you can conceptualize things differently at the intersection of technology or design and the business right. You take both things into account. And I don't know maybe that's my observation here, so I don't know if you share it or not but I think that other boutique companies, they just create boutique because they don't know any better. They're super technically skilled, but the moment where business comes into play they're like I can do that, I'm not interested. I hear that I'm not interested in business. Chances are you are not going to do very big clients or you're not going to last for longer, because people appreciate that business saffiness right.
Brian Farrell:Yeah, I mean we spend a lot of time, for instance, on measurement plans. So how to measure the design that we're doing for clients?
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:What does that mean? I'm not familiar with the concept.
Brian Farrell:So how, yeah, so how to measure the value of design, Um, and, for instance, a design system of what uh that we're building for a client, like how to extract metrics even in the first month after launch and then continually as it grows? Because the business side and typically a lot of times we'll start our pitch decks with just explaining the value and the ROI of investing in design through very specific examples and case studies that we now have over the last four years with other corporations, Because I still think that there is a learning curve and sort of a hesitation around truly investing in design without understanding how it's going to impact your business.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:What would be a good example of these KPIs? So like what kind of KPI like, for instance, that really resonates? I think one of our best portfolios, or two of our best portfolios, are one that a company will help to rebuild their MVP and we help them to grow their revenue by a factor of 300, something like that. Right, really crazy Five years. But you know, they went from something that didn't scale to something that scale and now they're a multimillion company, right. Or another one that they sold the company. They managed to sell the company because of the technology we developed for them, right. So we helped the company to grow in valuation and have an asset that was worth an acquisition, right. So what would be in design? What would be the KPIs that you're using to measure this against?
Brian Farrell:Yeah, so, like in specific projects, like a commercial website, it would be like um increase in lead generation, um or sales increase through the platform. Uh, when we're talking about design systems, it's time to market for introduction into a new market, taking up one product from one country to another country and what's the increase in time that you're able to launch? It would be even down to the technical side in terms of how fast can you detect an error or bug and fix it. How fast are you launching new features using? If you have created a successful design system, that multiplier becomes a very, very big number quickly to the distinction between lifestyle businesses and businesses that are, you know, pushed for growth.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:You probably have got also the upper hand on negotiation and you can cherry pick your customers. It's not always so, or hopefully in your case it is. It hasn't been so for 10 years on Mars days, but for the for the most part, we could pick the clients that we wanted to work for, right, and so that gives us a longer, not a runway, but it gives you better clients that then you don't have to replace so often, that you build a deeper bond with them and stuff like that. And while technically, lifestyle businesses come across as something not ambitious, mostly in the eyes of Americans, I'm getting these more when I go to America oh, yours is a lifestyle business. Oh man, that's easier. Right, I wouldn't say like they call us lazy, but it's like yeah, it's easy, everybody can build a lifestyle business.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:That's not ambitious. You will not create impact. You cannot make a dent in the universe. That's not ambitious. You will not create impact. You cannot create a dent and make a dent in the universe. But at the same time it's like, yeah, but we're 10 years in, you know, making a healthy profit every year.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Maybe the company is not very large, but we work for big companies as well. We're healthy, we're not stressed, not balding at 40 years old and not a lot of gray hair, no divorces, no depression. No, I don't know all of these health problems that a lot of people in the industry suffer from right and I don't know. For me, it is ambitious to create a culture where employees you know, I'm not, I don't like there was another word better for talent retention. I think there was, I don't remember right now, but it's kind of like you know employees have a tenure of seven to nine years in our company, which is unheard of. Three people have left in 10 years, right Out of the 30 that we have hired. So what is your policy for client choosing and how do you establish these long-term relationships, granted that you're four years old now, but I'm pretty sure that you still retain the same clients from 2020.
Brian Farrell:uh, yeah, I mean I think that's the goal is particularly in terms of creating financial stability. Um with a small company is having retainer clients and long-term relationships, and definitely we try and do that. Um, I think for me also it's a matter of um keeping diversity in the studio so that employees consistently can grow in new areas and more complex systems and bigger teams. That required different ceremonies and workflows with startup clients, that you're working with a really small team. Everyone on the call is the decision maker. You're typically launching in faster timelines, because I think the pairing of those two are really interesting, not only for the energy and spirit of a studio, but also in terms of just portfolio cases and a lot of times we're working with cause-related startups, so founders who are trying to start businesses in circular economy or climate or sustainable travel, and so that's a nice pairing with Fortune 500, who's trying to scale their product market.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:And how did you get to work with the retainer? Because one of the things you might have observed as an American is Spain doesn't have a big tradition of working with retainers, and even less so in design, Like development, because there's the body shopping. Maybe in design, you also use the body shopping system, but in 2014, it was like I remember we were having the conversation with using retainer systems diamond materials nobody was having it and, luckily enough, we got hired from companies from Sweden, Finland, the UK, Germany, and then we were able to introduce it in Spain. But, like you know, kind of like going abroad first and then having clients here who we converted to retainer contracts right, Maybe coming in at 2020 was easier, or do you have only retainers with American clients and then the fixed bid ones in Spain?
Brian Farrell:No, we have retainer. I mean typically the retainer here on the design side is called the implant so and the corporation wants to hire however many designers to come ultimately be a part of their internal team. It's something that I started to see when I was working at BBVA. We had a lot of different implants.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:The problem that I see there is what's the difference between implants and body shopping? Because it sounds like body shopping, isn't it?
Brian Farrell:I don't know what body shopping is Body shopping.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:yeah, it's kind of like you're loaning them a few people. Then they become internal employees. Right, they have their own email.
Brian Farrell:They get into their dynamics.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:It would be the same thing, body shopping.
Brian Farrell:So we call it, on the design side, a design implant, and we had a lot of them at BBVA. The problem is is that they're never treated as employees, so they don't have a career path, they don't have a career manager, but they're literally there every single day, 40 hours a week, as if they were an internal employee. So they're sort of like left on their own little island because they're not really connected to the agency that they were contracted. Well, where they have a career path, they have a manager within Farco, even though they are 100% assigned to that Spanish corporation as another internal designer within their team, which I think is really important, because it not only is great for that particular designer, because then they also they have a career path, they're growing but then it's good for the client as well, because they're continually bringing new ideas to the table.
Brian Farrell:I think that's one of the benefits of hiring external help is because you want fresh ideas, you don't want someone so bogged down in the internal politics, and so if you can create that dynamic where that implant or, in our case, hybrid has the connection to the exterior world, has the references coming from the studio of other clients, I think that only benefits the end client of the corporation as well. But yeah, I mean to your point, like we have retainers here in Spain, I would say they're a little bit different in terms of time. I mean, the ones in the US are typically like year long ones. Those are the contracts and here we see it's like six months.
Brian Farrell:We can get a corporation to like every six months we renew it. Sometimes it's like every 13 weeks.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:So I guess that's the difference okay, yeah, the reason I brought up body shopping, it's because one of the things that we really didn't want to do with our company, because, from the from the point of view of the provider, we have seen that they alienate the developer. Right, of course, you're like the company is borrowing a couple of developers from you. It sounds good, it's a stable contract, it's year long, then they pay for full-time employees. It's two, three, four, five people, if you want. Sounds good in principle, but then in practice, these people don't feel part of the client, but also they don't feel part of your company right and I remember clients.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:They want to have body shopping because they're like no, because I want them to be part of our company. They will be invited to our company days, they'll have our email, they'll be on our Slack and all of that. It's like, yeah, but then they don't have the benefits that your employees have. They don't have to go. I mean, sometimes they want them to go to the office, which is something as a remote company we don't do. But don't get me wrong.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:I think they want the best part of it, but they don't want the worst part of it, which is like yeah, I mean, you will not have this person really. You just want to kind of like lease them if you want, right, and for us as a provider, that person would feel super disconnected from our team too. That's why we, in this case, we don't do it and what we do is like the same approach that you guys have. Like the management happens here internally in Marspace. They are on our tools, they're on the client tools as well, but they participate in our team dynamics. Like we do a company, you get together, they come to our event. The client does a company get together, they don't go to that event, right, and and so they still feel very connected. That's the way that we can optimize for employee longevity Right.
Brian Farrell:So that that's yeah, I mean, I think, but I think it's like about, I mean, our case. It's like a true hybrid. I mean, they participate in in both companies, events and, and, but the mentorship happens on our end. But I think it's what's really important is to communicate this at the beginning when you're going into these types of relationships with corporations where they want this type of implant. Um, to be very clear is like this is how it works on our end.
Brian Farrell:These are the benefits of why we do it this way, and also the concept of rotation, because I think people who want to work on the agency side, they do that because they want visibility and contact with different clients, and so they have purposely chosen not to work in-house at a corporation, and so. But when a corporation hires this type of profile, they think it is forever. They want it to be like an employee because of the integration into their internal teams, and so I think the challenges that I've seen is when you go back to a corporation and say listen, it's time for a rotation, this profile needs to move on to another project and another client and um, if that idea has not been pre communicated, I think that's where you arise at some problems, um, but I do believe that, like the, the, the idea of rotation is so important.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Yeah, yeah, because I think from the buyer's perspective, from the client perspective, it's like I hire an agency so that they give me continued support, like 40 hours per week, no downtime. The employee will never leave Once they acquire the knowledge of the platform. Once they acquire the knowledge of the platform, it will never go down right. And I mean, if you did that internally and the employee leaves, then you would lose it anyways. It's only natural that an agency, the developer, can also quit the company and there will be some downtime. For instance, the way we minimize this is we have a minimum of two people in the project, so it would be a very big coincidence that the two of them, or three of them, five of them, they left at the same time. There's always like a manager and a tech lead and then the developer by minimum standards, so that if the developer quits, there's the tech lead who has centralized, also stored in the knowledge of the platform, and then we minimize the. You can always present some KPIs like we minimize the ramp up, adaptation period or the creativity and productivity. You know it decreases after a year. We have calculated a year and a half. That's when we typically we have a rotation policy of 18 months. But yeah, if the client and the developer are happy and in some cases we have people five years in the same project because both of them they wanted each other in the project. They wanted the developer wanted to stay.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But I kind of like to wrap up. I've got a couple questions also. You know, I always ask to everybody because we were fully transparent with these and we like to have other examples on the show. Which is where's the at the office Like? Because you know it sounds very rosy, it sounds dreamlike, but it's not always like this and even though bootstrap businesses, typically we have less or fewer lows than highs, we do have them sometimes. What has been your worst day at the office with Fargo?
Brian Farrell:Well, the thing is that I'm a designer by training and before this role as a business owner, I was always even though in very high positions later on in my career, but very specific to projects even though in very high positions later on in my career, but very specific to projects and so my 40 hours a week were very specific and dedicated to project work and very specific tasks. And then when I stepped into this role, I'm not on projects, my responsibilities and role definition is completely different in terms of business development and networking, and it's not so natural and it was not so natural for me. And so my worst days were those where I didn't feel productive, and it was because I didn't necessarily have to work an eight-hour day. I mean, there's only so much new business development you can do, but mentally I wasn't used to not being completely busy for a full eight hours, and so it was.
Brian Farrell:It was like that it was recalibrating my mindset to feeling productive in a new way and, honestly, I mean one of the conversations that I've had recently with another agency owner that really brought me so much peace was him saying like Brian, I only do three or four hours of work a day. That's all that's needed of me and you know I spend the rest of my time doing other stuff and he has a super successful agency agency and it was like it was this eye-opening moment where it was like, okay, like you don't have to work an eight hour Monday to Friday type of this is not your job anymore, it's it's much different, and so I think having that in mind and and and knowing that you know how I do my work and when I do my work is not on the same time schedule as before was has really helped me out.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Yeah, it's a really good point. Actually makes me think that I'm on purpose. I'm trying to work fewer hours per day because, even though it sounds counterproductive, because you know working less means probably less revenue, right, but then you increase another KPI, which is you're more creative, and then you focus more on the things that matter, right. I know I could fill my house with tasks, right. I've got tasks that have been pending for 6, 12, 18 months. Sometimes I see some things on linear or on my task management systems, like this task was created in 2018. Like, for fuck's sake, it's still there.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But because we got so many things chief, everything, officer right, that doesn't mean it has to be done. So my new framework is like completion by ignoring, right, which is, some tasks are best left ignored. If they disappear, they were not really important. If they are really important, they will come back twice.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Right, I'm not saying you should be doing this with everything, but most of the things we do, we do it just because we think we have to do it, and we could outsource them, we could automate them, we could eliminate them altogether, and I think that's one of the risks that we, as first-time founders, that we incur in because we're just not used and we're like, oh no, I'm not going to hire somebody to do this stuff. He's going to charge me 300 euros. Like what's 300 euros? Probably your hourly fee as a founder of Barco is way higher than that. Of course you should be hiring that person, but in your mind it goes against your profit, right? And you still have got the mentality of a really small business owner, and it's one of the things that we have to battle against. How about? Were you any close to shutting down your business?
Brian Farrell:Were there any periods in time that you were like, ah well, short of money, or no, I mean, like you said, we're I mean, we've always been bootstrapped and we've always grown organically based on the clients that have come in.
Brian Farrell:And, like I was saying, we sort of had it easy from the beginning because we started with really big clients.
Brian Farrell:But I will say that, like last year, first quarter, when everyone was concerned about the economy and our clients were not opening up their budgets and reducing headcount, and I mean, we didn't make any profit in the first quarter of 2023.
Brian Farrell:And so that was like probably the most challenging period, and I think for me, though, looking back on it, because we had started off on such good footing from the very beginning, I'm almost glad that that happened, because it sort of gave me perspective on what a challenge looks like, how to prepare for it and, most importantly, that we can survive it. So it also has sort of like calmed me down a little bit as a business owner, because I think particularly because I'm new to this like I always think we're going to fail, like I just have this, have this mindset of we could fail any day, which really really stressed me out, and so, having gone through that period where we really didn't make any profit at all, we weren't at a loss, but it wasn't a successful quarter at all sort of like peace of mind and also confidence in terms of if it happens again, it's not going to be the end of our company.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Since you shared, I'm going to be sharing as well. We had a similar situation in Q2 last year, right and so, and that contract we didn't land and we were supposed to. We had doubled down on sales on that project. It would have been a very big project for us. Then we completely took the attention away from other sales processes, which in hindsight we shouldn't have. Then we, because we didn't land the project, all of a sudden we had to not help the team but a significant part of the team without the project. Then we had to go back to these clients that we have left unattended for a while, or potential clients, so like, look, this happened, we're super transparent. They had a couple of them and ended up hiring us. So we managed to turn the situation around.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:But that quarter I mean we don't measure quarterly profit. I don't know if that's something that you guys do and I think that's pretty clever. It could have been pretty disastrous if we hadn't reverted the situation. It's also that situation of being at peril for a while. It's like, wow, you guys should get this fixed. I think it was also a wake-up call for the company. I think it was positive. Last question before we wrap it up because we're running out of time. What was your most expensive fuck-up and can you quantify the money?
Brian Farrell:Yeah, I mean you had mentioned this yesterday.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:I was trying to think about what is the the first time we prepare? I have to say First time we prepare with this question.
Brian Farrell:Yeah, I was like what is a fuck-up?
Brian Farrell:That I could talk and and, and thankfully, at least at fargo, there hasn't been a a fuck up um that I can quantify um, but I will say um, that in my career, um, a big fuck up was particularly related to you know, I started in in design studios in new york city back in 2003, where most of it was print-related, and so going on press check and sending a client through with an error and having to reprint definitely happened many different times and cost tens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars.
Brian Farrell:And, quite honestly, one of the biggest pieces of advice I give to any designer going into particularly the digital space now is find a client, a freelance project that will require you to go on press check, because it creates a sense of detail and preciseness that is so important that I think designers that go directly into the digital space don't have, because it's so easy to correct bugs. You just go over to your developer and say code this. Differently Did I see a lack of refinement and attention to detail on designers that haven't necessarily gone through the more physical print-related industry?
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:I'm not laughing because of your fuck-up. I'm laughing because, coincidentally and I haven't heard this story I'm drinking tea from a cup that happens to have a typo. You know that's our slogan. Can you read Instead of alien, alien.
Brian Farrell:That's our slogan. Can you read Instead?
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:of alien Alien. I think six different people saw the design, but we didn't see this typo and we printed, like I don't know, 50. We made 50 of these coffee mugs and when they arrived, when they were shipping it, before receiving them, I was like, oh, by the way, I think there's a typo here, like they're arriving today. So we have to reprint them, we have to remake them and we sent them anyways. We sent the wrong one and the fixed one to the team as a reminder that everybody fucks up, because it was the designer fucked up. But then the head of people reviewed it. She didn't say it.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:The three founders reviewed the designs for other nerds and this one in particular. We didn't see it and somebody else was involved Didn't see it either. Six different people didn't see these typos, you know. So I think it's a great example that these printing you know these printing check. It's very good. Brian, you've been extremely generous with your transparency and sharing your wisdom nuggets and your experience and your time. I want to give you 30 seconds to kind of like I'm rolling the carpet for you. Say how we can help you. So I'm rolling the carpet for you. Say how we can help you and, farco, if you've got something coming up in your life business-wise that you want to announce, just do it here.
Brian Farrell:Ask for a favor from the community. Great. So, I mean, I think our vision is to continually put Spain on the global radar, so that really is the essence of what we're trying to do. So, if you're in a market outside of Spain, think of the talent that's here, because it is really incredible. And these fusions of culture, I tell you, are creating not only diverse, interesting teams but super fun to work with. So that's basically all I have to say.
Àlex Rodríguez Bacardit:Thank you, Brian.
Brian Farrell:You're welcome.