The Chef JKP Podcast
The Chef JKP Podcast
Season 5 - Episode 12 - Colin Clague - Hard Work Beats Talent!
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In this episode of the ChefJKP Podcast, celebrated chef Colin Clague shares his experiences working in various kitchens around the world, from the Isle of Man to London, Australia, and Dubai.
He discussed the challenges and rewards of opening iconic restaurants like Zuma and Qbara, where he brought his expertise in Middle Eastern and Levantine cuisine to create unique and modern dishes.
Colin also reflects on the evolving restaurant industry and the importance of hard work and dedication in the culinary field.
Overall, it was a fascinating conversation with a true mentor in the industry.
ChefJKP and Colin discuss:
- The Challenges of Purchasing in the Hospitality Industry
- Consulting on a British Gastropub and Dreaming of Opening a Middle Eastern Restaurant
- Colin's Formative Years and Navy Experience
- Mental Health and Well-being in the Hospitality Industry
- The Lack of Recognition for Middle Eastern Food in the Culinary World
- Resilience and Adaptability of the Hospitality Industry
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That's right. The podcast is now on YouTube, so you can watch all of the interviews at your leisure. At the same time, your contribution to the show by hitting that subscribe button makes a monumental difference to the show,
as you can keep inviting the guests you love and keep having the conversations that no one else is having. The only thing that I ask is that you share the show. Welcome to the Chef JKP podcast with me,
James Knight Pacheco. checko. and memories.
Wherever you are in the world, whatever you're doing, I ask that you sit back and listen and perhaps take away a few morsels of advice. There will be laughter, we're gonna get serious.
Above all, lessons for life. You're listening to the Chef JKP podcast and this is what you can expect on today's show. - To put things into context,
you are coming from, again, Isle of Man, so you know about, produce. Then London, Michelin -starred kitchens, you know about produce. Australia, so you know about international produce.
So then come to Dubai, open one of the most iconic hotels and restaurants in the world. You knew far more about produce than the purchasing manager.
I think, yes, that's no doubt about it, but obviously the purchasing manager still today, are the hotel purchasing manager. does what his job is and he gets what he thinks is the best product for the price type of thing,
you know. I didn't, you know, the Barley Miso Chicken. I did first did that on skewer, you know. I was on about the 10th, you go try that. Still no, nearly there,
nearly there. He got 16 versions of that Barley Mishio dish, a chicken dish, till he was on the Cedarwood, till he was happy. I said, say the last three, I never changed.
It was exactly the same. And he says, "No, no, no, no, no." But I was so upset at this time. So when he finally agreed to it, and you can ask him this story, when he finally agreed to it,
I said, "Fuck, there." And then I handed him my notice. I'm consulting on a British gastropub that should open in March as down in blue water. But as I said,
the dream, and I'm speaking. to a few people and I'd like to speak to anybody else, if you know any millionaires, to do another cabaret. That's the big dream. I've been here so long, I want to do Middle Eastern food outside the box.
Not fusion. I've never done a fusion restaurant in my life where you take authenticity and you just tweak it, you know? The guest on this week's show has worked for some of the best best and most famous chefs on the planet.
Not only that, he also opened the Burj Al Arab, Zuma London and Zuma Dubai, Kabara, Ruya and many, many more. He has also mentored some of the very best chefs in the region and is still inspiring the industry to this very day.
When it comes to delivery of concepts, flavours and leadership, this guy has it all. all. Well -traveled, but the place he holds in his heart the most is his beloved Isle of Man,
which by the way, is a chef's paradise. Equally, to keep his mind sharp, he is not only an avid reader, but just casually runs 12 kilometers every single morning.
This chef has made an even bigger impact on the world of gastronomy than most. Next, on the final show of... season five, I talk to the one and only Colin Clegg.
We discuss his formative years from almost cooking in the Navy to then stepping into 80s London kitchens. We talk about the types of skills that are unfortunately not being taught.
And what was it really like to be part of the pre -opening team at the famed Burj Al Arab? Colin has so much knowledge and experience. Here's Colin Clegg. he is the very definition of what I would call a true mental.
One of my favourite conversations so far, Colin has some great stories and is also incredibly passionate about hospitality overall. Listen up for a story involving a dry day.
Time to rock and roll. Just before we begin, here is a small message from this week's guest. I'm Colin Clegg. If you like the podcast, podcast, make sure to follow, share and subscribe.
Welcome back to the Chef JKP podcast. And on the show today, we have one of the most celebrated chefs within the region. You all know him,
the legend that is Colin Clegg. Colin, welcome to the show. Thank you for the invite. So, first things first, favorite or first ever challenge? childhood food memory?
Fish in the Isle of Man. What type of fish? Well, kippers is in there obviously, herring, you know, all that sort of stuff, cod. I remember my grandfather going out and we had a rowing boat.
He'd made some murderers, you know, which are totally illegal. It just led ways with us. And in them days, you could get, you know, six or seven cod in one line, you know. So, when you were growing up there in the Isle of Man,
for anyone who doesn't know the... the Isle of Man, where is it located exactly? It's right in the middle of the Irish Sea, it's principality I suppose, you know, it's not part of the United Kingdom,
it's an independent country, crown dependency it's called, so we are independent and it's a bit like Scotland, a bit like England, a bit like Wales, a bit like Ireland, it is paradise.
And I can imagine the coastline being super rich. How was that? that for you as a kid growing up? A phenomenal, I mean, if you stand in the middle of the Isle of Man,
you're no more than six miles from the sea. Wow, yeah, it's 12 miles at its widest. So obviously all the fishing boats go out, you get fantastic. We've got legendary queens, you know,
the small scallops. Yes. So sweet, so beautiful. The fish is fantastic. In the mainland, oh sorry, in the, you know, the island itself, the land, everything. everything is fantastic. Really? It was really a lot of,
you didn't think about it, but it was organic and all that sort of stuff, but it was just what we grew up with, you know. My dad had an allotment, all his vegetables was grown. So were you helping your dad also with the allotment as a kid or not really?
No, just eating. So as growing up, were you super interested in food or did you want to take a sort of different path career -wise? -wise? - Well, my mom is a cook.
You know, she's got the same city and girls, qualifications as I had, and that's what she trained to do. And obviously then when my brother and I came along, she went into school meals and all that sort of stuff. So we all had the same holidays and things like that.
We didn't have much, I'll be honest. You know, we're just a regular working class family, but we always felt well. Dad growing his own vegetables and all that sort of stuff. It was, you know, farm to table every day.
you know. But that was real farm to table, you know. You knew the people that were growing it, you know. That must have been amazing. That was fantastic. I was truly blessed. I mean, to be born on the Isle of Man,
ticked all the boxes. I was lucky as it can be. So then during your teenage years, were you interested in food or did you want to do something completely different or was it just a natural step for you?
I remember going to see... see Arthur Fyfe, his name was. He was my career's teacher. And he says, "Let's face it, Colin. You're not going to uni, are you?" Which was quite blunt.
Lovely. Quite blunt. But I've been with still friends today. What's his name? Arthur Fyfe. Arthur Fyfe. Okay, thank you, Arthur, for the beautiful advice. But I always wanted... There's two stories that we can go down here.
I always wanted to be an archaeologist, but nobody told me. You really had to be quite brainy. I'm very, very good at... history and all that sort of stuff. I still, you know, that's my passion today, but maths, forget it, physics,
all the stuff that you really need to get into university, it wasn't going to happen. But so I thought, and I've got two passions, travelling the world, like yourself, travelling the world and cookery. So I thought I'm going to be a chef in the Royal Navy.
So I applied, you know, passed the exams, everything, there was no problem, and I went over to Mount Pleasant, which is in Liverpool, and had the medical there, did everything I could. the eyes, ears, all that sort of stuff. Then I stood on a scale, and it was about eight stone.
And you know, I'd live a puddle into like, I can play a piano concerto on your ribcage, that sort of stuff. So yeah, I failed that because it was too skinny. So he said, "Go home, eat scouse, drink Guinness,
"put some weight on." So that's what I did. I grew about under the foot, didn't put hardly any more weight on. So it was even skinnier than when I started. And by that time, I think, the notion of serving in the army or there,
you know, had gone, I just wanted to be a chef. OK. So as soon as I finished catering college on the island, I went straight to London. So before we talk about London, catering college was how long?
About two years. Two years. And I had started, you know, as I say, we didn't work in class. So from 14 years, I was washing pots in the hotel. Right. Ocean castle. OK.
You know. know for a guy called Stanley Kane washing dishes then slowly he'd let me do a bit of breakfast and all that he always said to me you should go front of house because you know but it was never for me so so you naturally had a career path anyways yeah doing that I mean the Isle of Man obviously was summer season you know it's a typical coastal British place tourism was very big not so much now but you
know when I was growing up a long time ago it was the thing to do so yeah yeah all had summer jobs just to make ends meet okay so then by the time you enrolled into college you already had experience yeah and during that two years it was all culinary or did you have to do food and beverage all of that we did you know the usual thing hygiene was in there bakery pettisserie food service was in there you know I
didn't excel at that obviously and I said a few things and most of the time I I was washing the pots instead of being the waiter, so even then I was a cheeky one. But yeah, I mean, one of the things I have to say about my time at college was that the lecturer was a guy called Bernie Ogle,
who's sadly passed away now. I thought he was the most evil man on the planet. There's no doubt about it. For two years, he made my life, and another friend of mine, Eddie Cain, our life's hell, because we were the two guys that said,
"We're going to be chefs." You know, people wanted to be managers and all that sort of. of stuff, but we were going to be chefs. And he made my life hell. You know, he'd some pew, he'd kick, he'd review two minutes into, yeah. Really? But until he died,
he was the first person I saw on The Island Man every time. I owe him so much. I mean, he was an absolute and still is a legend. So he sort of shaped you to go into the industry and to prepare you for what '80s London was like?
Yes. So then talking of '80s London. Yeah. Obviously. Obviously what sort of and those kitchens back then obviously they're nowhere near to how they are these days.
That's a good thing. Which is a good thing. Yeah. But but for you back then how was that experience? I mean coming I mean let's put it into context here. You're coming from a beautiful place I love man.
Yeah. Surrounded by beautiful nature family family, friends, everything is there to then do extensive travel to go into this metropolis. I'd never been on an escalator type of thing,
you know, I'd never, obviously a tube train. I mean, the trains on the Isle of Man or steam trains, you know, so it was, it was a culture shock. Right. Yeah. And I don't want to bring this, but when I was growing up in the Isle of Man,
everybody was white. Yeah. It was English Irish, you know. know, that sort of thing. We had no ethnic diversity, which we have now, you know. So when I got to London, it was just like, you know,
multiculturalism, straight at you. But then your first job, where was it? I took the first job, well, you know, I heard Nick, you know, and he was saying about he used to send all his letters out.
I must have sent handwritten because my mum insisted on like 50 letters. Oh, wow. And I got about... two or three yeses and one's not the greatest. I mean it's the Stran Palace Hotel in London but the reason I took it was the staff accommodation was basically right behind the hotel so you lived in Covent Garden.
Oh nice. Exactly. Yeah that was that was the thing and so that was that's the reason we took that and then obviously a few things happened so. So then let's let's put a fly in the wall.
What was the typical day like at that hotel at that time for you? - That hotel wasn't bad. That was just a step in the door. I think it was a four star or something. The hours were long, but the chef wasn't particularly melodramatic,
violent or whatever you're gonna call it. But further down the line, obviously, the Trocadero, Gary Hollyhead, people like this. I mean, those were hard. I mean,
I remember going to work for Gary and I said, "Well, it was shifts." And he said, said I said early's late So yes, so I presumed it was early's and late. You know, it was early's and late's So you're going in about 7 30 in the morning finishing at midnight and Saturday was a half day That was 12 till 12 as a half day as a half day 12 hours was a half day And it was at the time he was going through the you
know, him and Marco were competing and there was an article in the paper It's like who was the English on fontereble, you know type of thing, right? - And yeah, it was interesting. - But working in a kitchen like that,
quite high level with Gary. - Yeah, it was a Michelin star, that was it, yeah. - How was the pressure? - Well, if you know Gary then, I mean, he's a fabulous chef, absolutely, he always was. But obviously then, you know, the whole conditions that,
you know, it was in Soho and you'd order minimal stuff and you'd run out of stuff, you know? So you're in, it was always a little cup at the end of the day. table with money in it.
And when you ran out, say, carrots or leek, you run down to the market, you know, the one in Soho there, buy some leeks and carrots and all that, and run back. - During service. - Well, in the daytime. - Right,
okay, okay. - You run out in service. - I was gonna say. - Don't come back. But he did the ordering, so it's his own fault, you know? I mean, and you've run back with two bags of shopping or whatever in your chef's whites, and Soho being Soho in them days,
it's a live show inside. so I said, "Do you know who my boss is? He'll skin me alive." But it was tough, I mean.
But I can imagine because obviously none of the things that we discussed now were there then. So let's, you know, mental health, staff well -being,
that sort of thing. Didn't exist. You were just expected to get this the job done, whatever it takes. If you don't like it, see you later. - I mean, the stories I know of people burning themselves badly on their foot and leg with oil in it and finishing service with their feet in a bucket of ice type of thing,
then going to the hospital and all that sort of stuff. They really were, in one side there were terrible times. There were misogyny, violence and all that, but on the other side,
the camaraderie, you know, we're all in the same boat together. I don't know what's going, I'll probably talk about that later where the restaurant scene's going now, but then it was difficult,
but I enjoyed every minute. But I think the reason why you sort of got through it is because as you said, you had that camaraderie, everybody's going through it. At the same time, anybody who's ever worked in London,
there is a vibe to working in London. Yeah. So So it is tough. I mean, obviously, I'm getting on a bit. But a lot of my friends didn't make it,
didn't come through the other side, they've left the industry. As you said, there's mental health issues, there were drug abuse issues, alcoholism, all these things. So we don't want to go back to that.
There's certainly no way we can go back to that. But there are things that, if you want to be the next Jason or the next Gordon or anything like that. doing seven and a half hours a day and taking weekends off is not going to get you where they have achieved.
And the only way to do that is hard work. - Well, the other thing I wanted to sort of touch upon is specifically Australia, UK, US, the system for education is you do your two years.
And during that two years, there's also work experience that you work, like, or there are cases and certainly when I was in college, one day at college, four days a week,
five days a week, working and you learned on the job and got paid, which is really cool. But I think specifically within the UAE, that would be massively beneficial for everybody because at the moment,
as you know, there are qualifications that you pay for within three months or six months and then you're already a chef. Yep. What's your thoughts on that? Well, when I graduated, so I did the two years full -time, I mean, as they say,
when I lived there, it was 60 ,000 people on the island, man. You come out in two years, yeah. I got it all out. I've got my nose. I'm a chef. But then you started as a third coming and then to a second and to a first.
So to get to a chef to party was probably six or seven years. Right. You know, you really did a long, basically you were so wet behind the years, you started at the bottom and you really had to work your way. through. What's happening now is they come out of college and I think,
I don't mention politics, but getting rid of city and gills was a disaster. They don't certainly in Britain, they don't teach them how to bone, meat anymore or fish because they buy that in type of thing.
So they're coming out as a chef thinking that they know everything and can't fill it with fish or bone legs of lamb or anything like that. that, so. - But those skills are so, I mean,
you need them for life. So my father was the one who pushed me to be a chef. Because he said, you need to have a trade. He said, if you have a trade, if you're good with your hands, you can do anything.
So, you know, it wasn't plumber, it wasn't mechanic, it wasn't carpenter, but you look at those trades, you can't push or cheat your way through those trades.
You can't take shortcuts. - No. - But. you're right And after college you become the apprentice. Yeah, you know until you prove yourself. Yeah, right? I always remember going to it was in the Halcyon Hotel in London with James Robert and they did a fabulous game Terine so but it was only made by Michelle who was the Dutch sous chef and I went to it.
What's in there? Nice things that was it It was all secrets, but then you had to peer over his shoulder learn how to make it the hard ways And that took you three months months, you know? - Yeah. - Yeah. - But look,
then after London, what was the catalyst for you to go and travel to Australia? - I'll be eternally grateful for this gentleman. What it was, I went to travel, I met a few Australians in London,
obviously every bard, you know. - As you do. - The barman was always Australian. So I went to Australia house and I said to the gentleman, "Years working holiday, which is what you could do then." And he said,
"Look, chefs are on the list." pay an extra 50 quid, and you can be a resident. So I was a resident of Australia before I ever landed there. Oh, wow. Yeah. So obviously, then after five years,
they asked me to be a citizen. There were a few reasons I didn't. Another three years, still I wouldn't do it. And then they said I could swear allegiance to the people in the Commonwealth of Australia. So I took it, you know, so I got an Australian passport now.
But it was absolutely fantastic Australia. I mean, I mean, it's just Melbourne is the greatest city I've ever lived in my life. So how different is the culture,
the food culture in Australia compared to Britain? Obviously, it's nearly 25 years since I left Australia. But what I noticed when I first got there,
and I think this is basically carried through my career since London. London. Yeah, I mean some of the chefs that I've worked with will probably say now He's lying, but I've really calmed down and I went to Australia Obviously,
you know, you've worked for some of these chefs and been abused and been treated badly in some right now It's my turn. I'm going because there's people below me So I'm gonna give it to them and you get to Australia and you start doing your London restaurant Oh,
I made calm down mate. We don't do that here. You know, don't talk to you know, so they just didn't take it So I missed out on all that the fun part, really, but I think that's what it was. And when I was there,
I mean, the Australians kept all the best of. Right. I mean, the ingredients were second to none. I mean, absolute. I remember one story. There's a fish in Australia called orange ruffy,
you know, and apparently it takes about 80 years to grow to a decent size. And the Aussies were fishing out of the water, like there was no tomorrow. I think it's not allowed now or something like that. that. But you know, the chef,
go and get the orange ruffi from the fridge, always feed. Does it look orange? Does it heck? You know? So I come back, you know it? And then he still starts throwing stuff around. But then,
so, but you worked in, in Sydney and Melbourne. And Haman Island. And Haman Island in the Barrier Reef. So what a phenomenal journey. Yeah. Specifically, you touched upon Melbourne. And for those people who who haven't traveled to Melbourne,
it is the mecca of food in Australia. How was the scene back then for you? It was fantastic. Obviously, we're talking 30, 35 years ago.
So it's gone on to bigger and better things now. Although, you know, obviously, with the recession, it's struggling a bit now. But I always say Sydney's a bit more like an America. Okay. You know,
that's sort of young, but Melbourne is is definitely more European. There's a huge coffee culture, which I don't drink obviously. But the restaurant scene was great. The Chinatown, I mean, there was a restaurant called The Flower Drunk,
Gilbert Lau. Unbelievable. Unbelievable, they're still there today. So the food scene was excellent. You mean you're surrounded on the outside, but you know, the Yarra Valley and all the wineries and all that sort of stuff,
yeah. - Must have been phenomenal. - It was, it was. And the standard of living you could get was far, but it's like here. it was far superior to what I could get in London, so suddenly you're not doing the 16,
17 hour days and you got a nice flat to live in, you know, you walk to work, nice, it was just, yeah. - The weather's all right. - Yeah, well, Melbourne's not Sydney.
I mean, there's four seasons. - Yes, exactly. - It's still nice, no? - Oh, it's beautiful, but I like four seasons. - Yeah, I like a bit of rain. - If you didn't like rain, you wouldn't live on the island. (laughing) wouldn't you? - So, but what would you say that Australia taught you the most when it comes to your leadership style?
- Yeah, I think I calmed down rapidly. 'Cause, you know, treat people fairly, expect to be treated as, as you, you know, want to be treated yourself, probably goes down through camaraderie or something.
I mean, I just, I had a friend, an Irish friend over who I worked with in Sydney and we spent, you know, a couple of days together while they were in Sydney. Dubai. So those friends that you make of a life,
you know? So you've been through the trenches and now you've come out the other side okay. Exactly. So then, Colin, what I really want to get on to is the opening or the pre -opening of the Burj Al Arab because just before that time,
you worked for one of, I would say, one of the most... iconic chefs of our time, a gentleman called Anton Mossiman. - Who is still with us. - Who is still with us,
eccentric guy, always wears a bow tie. - Won't like, doesn't like garlic in food, which we put lots of it in there. - Lovely, lovely. Tell me about that gig specifically with him.
- Well, that was just basically, I was waiting for the bougie, God delayed. So I was doing basically the outside. catering for him. So, you know. - In London.
- In London. You'd go to various fine houses and all that sort of stuff. For one particular case, we were meant to go to High Grove House and cook for Prince Charles and Lady Diana,
but everybody handed their passports in. And lo and behold, I was refused. Dad was very proud. - Dad. Why, why is that? Oh, you political.
This guy's part. So then once Burj Al Arab had opened, tell me again, so because this was 1999,
1999, the Burj Al Arab was just about to open. Yeah. When did you first go in to Burj Al Arab? So I got there in probably the end of '98.
I mean, we were actually doing a lot of work in the Jamera beach and crossing the bridge every day in the sun, you know. It was a good four or five, six months before we actually opened the doors when we were there.
And in that time, you know, they didn't really know what type of food in each house. They said, do the menu for an Australian type of thing and then British and and you know So now they've settled on it.
It's obviously a fabulous place, but then it was a revolving doors, you know But back then Your brief was one restaurant. Yes. Oh, yeah. No, I was in charge of a lot of her.
Okay So that's the all not not rooftop restaurant, but yeah, they're highest. Yeah beautiful time the times described it I remember as a newspaper in a dog's mouth Oh,
what a beautiful there. Yeah. I mean, we'd be looking at the shape and the... Gosh. Yeah. Okay, it's very creative of them to... Well, sometimes... ...to come manage a bit of journalism.
But tell me about that time, because it is to this day one of the most iconic hotels and locations in the world. It's the only seven star, I believe, in the world. But you were there during the opening.
So how was the actual opening in? - Incredibly difficult. Obviously, as I said, the first year was a revolving door. You know, chefs came in and out,
general managers came in and out, food and boat, you know, it was, they were shipped out pretty quick, but you gotta remember Dubai was nothing like it is now. I mean, if you went to the Burj Al Arab in front of you is the Jamera Beach Hotel.
Now, if you look to your left, there was the Shakespeare Palace. And then the next thing you saw was the original Hard Rock Cafe way off in the sands and where that was. There was nothing. There was no marina, no anything down there.
It was still just desert. So visionary is not, is a word I would use. It is really. But were you busy then? Was it known because it was just coming up?
Everybody wanted to go in. I mean, now obviously you have to pay to cross the bridge and all that, but everybody wanted to come and see that it was palatial. I mean,
it was totally different from everything. Some of it, I mean, if you went to Almentar, I mean, the decor is quite unusual, let's say. But then it was,
I mean, the original design, I believe, and I wouldn't have gone there if it did, that was the floor was meant to be glass. Right. Oh, wow. - Can you imagine, yeah, that high opposite, yeah. But it was busy from day one.
Everywhere was, but it's definitely, the food is definitely far better now, you know. - And back then, would you say you were working at London Hours or it was that much?
- I mean, there's two things. We were definitely coming in in the staff bus in the morning, what I would do, do lunch thing and back on the staff bus, try and sleep in the back seat, go back to the staff accommodation, not go to the station. not get off the bus,
and then come back to work, go upstairs and start again. So I had like 40 minutes on the back seat. - Quick, quick nap. - Power nap, yeah. And other thing then, the ingredients that you got,
and I'm sure all the suppliers will agree with what you got back in '99 seemed to be what they couldn't sell in a Rougé and places like that and Covent Garden. It was just like, it certainly wasn't quality of the ingredients that you're getting into by now.
- Right. - No India. - Yeah. - But how was that? And I'm assuming that you had a purchasing department. - Yeah. - So what, again, to put things into context, you are coming from,
again, Isle of Man, so you know about produce. Then London, Michelin -starred kitchens, you know about produce. Australia, so you know about international produce. So then come to Dubai,
open one of the most iconic hotels in the world. restaurants in the world. You knew far more about produce than the purchasing manager. I think, yes, that's no doubt about it.
But obviously, the purchasing manager still today, a hotel purchasing manager, does what his job is and he gets what he thinks is the best product for the price type of thing.
But considering it was such an iconic place, there was no food cost when I there was no food cost. So you still, you had carte blanche per se. - I mean, they wanted gold on the dishes and all that sort of caveat.
Just before I left, they woke up and said, "No, we need a food cost here." - Okay. And how many covers is the restaurant for people who don't know? - That one you could do, I think, for a long time ago.
Maybe 150, 160 type of thing. - In one sitting? - I think so, yeah. - So it's quite-- - I just-- kitchen's very, you know, quite small. But if there was a lot of mise en place done downstairs,
came up in the lift and everything like that, and just, yeah. - And how long were you there for? - 14 months. - Okay. - Yeah. - And what an eye -opener for you? - Yeah, yeah. It was, yeah, it was.
- A few stories that probably not want to reveal. - We'll have those later on at night. - I had to look around. I was gonna get sacked. (laughing) - I was definitely-- going to get sacked. Nothing through the food scene that had just been in the Robin Hood,
you know, like the way some of the staff were treated in the early days, you know. They were definitely second class citizens. - Right, right. So then tell me about how the job in Zuma,
London came up because obviously you did your stint within Dubai. Successfully opened that, have it on the CV. When did you first hear about Zuma? Zuma? - Zuma was,
so I left the Burj Al Arab, went to run a restaurant called Monsoon in Madrid. And obviously I was married by that time, my wife Farrah came, she was pregnant.
So we decided to go back to London. And Reiner Becker, who's the owner of Zuma, was my head chef in the Park Hyatt in Sydney. - Oh, so he is very good at this.
he always keeps in touch with everybody. Wow. Yeah. So he rings me up in Madrid. Obviously, my wife is pregnant. I was pregnant. And it's like, do you want to come back to London? Yeah, sure. We're opening a Japanese restaurant.
It's like, you're German. I'm British. Why, you know, this is a disaster waiting to happen. And you didn't have a clue about Japanese food back then? No, I did. I opened its with Mark Gregory in London,
which is the first Kaiten sushi, but, you know, certainly not. not the standard or quality that Zuma was. So I was the head chef, and we had the Japanese head chef. - In Zuma.
- In Zuma. - And how was the conversation? - I mean, well, he didn't last. We were in a sacked in before we opened. - Because? - Drinking. - Okay. - You know, so we opened Zuma in Knightsbridge with only one,
I think it was one Japanese guy on the sushi counter. who's still there today Yoshida I think and you know we probably get right out just confirm it. I think there were 14 chefs So I said there's not enough chefs here And he goes let's see how it is because even in Reiner didn't expect it to be the success it has become and then you know four or five days in And you need more ships you think so,
you know, so we really ramped it up So in the early days, yeah, so when you first opened, yeah, it was a a lunch, dinner or all day operation. Lunch and dinner.
Lunch and dinner. But did you have a little break in between, like three to five, or it was just open all day? No. In the beginning it was lunch and dinner, now it's open all day. So it was one of the first sort of concepts of its time in London.
You know, the story goes, obviously Ryan, I was getting a haircut, somebody mentioned Mr. Warnie, they got in touch, Ryan. Rainer obviously was executive chef of the Park Hyatt in Tokyo. And he really jumped in with Japanese culture with two feet.
He loved pottery, the plates, the food, everything, you know. And he could write a book on Japanese pottery and all that sort of stuff. So he just really embraced it and they sat down and talked about it.
And, you know, we thought outside the box. It's something I've always become. And I think this is... one of the things that I still carry from like wanting to be an archaeologist, you research, you read.
And obviously the dishes, when we were there, where else, I mean, the tagline is traditional, but not authentic. And that's what it is, if you're Japanese,
you can go in, you can recognize the dishes, but there are tweaks to it, you know? And that is exactly what we did at Kabara and as a career and all these places. Right. So when you first opened it, it was busy from the get -go,
Zuma. In London? Yes. Yeah, there was a lady called Divya Lavani who's since married Joel Cadbury. And she was of that high society type of place.
So from day one, all the, it was the place to go. You know, all her friends came in, the celebrities came in, and the footballers and so and so and so. It was absolute. packed.
So you gained momentum super quickly. Very, very quickly. We were, it was the talk of the town. I think in the first, second year we got, was it Square Meals, Best Restaurant, the accolades was just amazing.
And specifically in London, so you went from 14 chefs to how many by the end you left? Well, they're way into their 30 odd chefs now. I mean, I don't know what it is now.
I had lunch with Reiner there about six months ago. months ago. Still excellent, but obviously the company now is not what I remember. It's a massive, you know, spend of so much. And it's a huge,
you know, like in Dubai, they have extra chefs that when they open in the mountains or when they open in, you know, in the South of France and the Mediterranean, then these people go there. So it's an absolutely colossal company.
So how did that journey from London to to Dubai come about? Because then, of course, you open Zuma Dubai again, no mean feat.
No, but so when we opened Zuma Dubai, God, when was that, 2007? I think, DIFC was just about to start. And Mr. Warnie and Reiner were going in there and everybody,
because I'd been to Dubai, I still had friends there. Oh, you're mad, mate. You need to put it on Jamera Beach in one of the hotels and all that sort of stuff. So, Zuma, the DIFC wasn't a dining destination that it is now.
We would make those a couple of sandwich shops in there, but they saw something. I mean, they are geniuses, both as a lunch market, dinner market. And from day one,
we were absolutely hammered. Two floors? Two floors. Absolutely. You couldn't get in. And in fact, they had to drop it up. one point because the fiber gate said,
"Look, come on, this is overpacking type of thing." So we were doing five, 600 covers a night sometimes. Yeah, and it's still doing fabulously.
It's iconic now. It's definitely iconic. - But from a chef's perspective, would you say that Zoomer taught you sort of business sense if you look at it from a chef's perspective?
if you like? I think the Zuma, yes. More importantly, Rhyna. Rhyna was probably coloring -wise the biggest influence in my career. You know, obviously from Parkire,
Sydney, and then like 10 years at Zuma. Rhyna's one of those guys, obviously I'll come up with dishes. He has impeccable taste. So it was your job to sort of come up with dishes for once a year?
to develop, let's say, a lunch special, so on and so forth. And you'd have to cook them for him in London or in Dubai or both? - Both, okay. I mean, when it was obviously in London. And then with Hong Kong,
I think the second restaurant that I went to help open was Hong Kong, so Hong Kong was the second, then Dubai, then it's, I think, Istanbul, then Dubai. - Okay. - But I mean,
I'll tell you an example, there was, you know, the Bali Miso Chicken. - Okay. I did first did that on skewer, you know, I was on about the 10th, you go try that, still no,
nearly there, nearly there. He got 16 versions of that Barley Mishio chicken dish till he was on the cedarwood, till he was happy. I still say the last three,
I never changed, it was exactly the same, and he says, no, no, no, no, no, no, but I was so upset. at this time. So when he finally agreed to it, and you can ask him this story,
when he finally agreed to it, I said, "Fuck, there." And then I handed him my notice. I said, "Oh, you're doing my editing here." And he's a very good, very good friend. And he just got away, tore it up, and told me to go back to the kitchen.
But, so yeah, and then we opened it. - But wow, I mean, but 10 years is a serious stint, Colin, for anyone, but especially in a place like that. It was such an eye -opener,
and the only reason I left, because I loved working for the Warnys and Reiner in particular, and the people that were around were just fabulous, you know. I mean, people like Jimmy, who's Ergo,
I mean, he's the best, one of the best barmen in the world and all this, Alex at Beebe's was there, Reef was there, I mean, everybody was there, and it was just a great training.
And the only reason I left was, I don't want to take sound derogatory or anything. I got fed up of Japanese food. You know, coming up with a new recipe, you just go soy sake, mirin, what else can I do?
- Right. - It was quite, quite limiting. So when I handed my notes in there, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think my notice was about six months 'cause they didn't think I was actually going to leave. I didn't have a job,
I just needed a break. But then Caprice Holdings came and offered me the, - Right. group, Middle East Chef, so I took that and then it was a case of, you actually aren't going to leave, you know what I'm saying? Yeah,
I just didn't want to do chug case food anymore. Well fair enough though, 10 years. I mean that's, you know, it's incredible. Attention chefs, restaurateurs and business owners. If you're looking for hospitality design experts with a keen sense of interior design,
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Now back to the episode. - So you did Caprice Holdings, but then you had a stint at Pollen Street. - In Singapore. - Yeah, for Jason. - Which is incredible. But then the concept that I really wanna sort of speak to you about is,
what you mentioned previously is cabara. So for anyone who didn't have the fortune of going, what was the concept back then? - The three owners and then like Patrick,
John and Elmer and Lou, they came up with this concept and they wanted a modern Levantine. So a modern Middle Eastern, a modern Arabic, you know, all that encompasses that area.
- And they approached you? - Yeah, I was in, I was in, you know, come back and let's, I mean, the gist of it was, let's do a Zoomer, but with Middle Eastern food. - Right. - Fantastic. - Okay. - Which is basically what it was.
- Okay. - Sharing, concept, thinking, you know. - 11 teen food, and again, in this region, just for anyone who's listening, you don't touch the mother recipes. Everything has to be.
- Well, I don't know. - Well, basically, you know, I'd lived in the region a very long time, so I'm very comfortable with Middle Eastern food, but I'm certainly wanted, so I surrounded myself, and you know, Mohammed was from Syria and all the other countries.
guys with lots of Turkish and we're Egyptians There were Moroccans and all that and it was a case of you bring your mothers and grandmothers recipes, right? and So they'd come to me and do that and we go that looks terrible But by God it tastes amazing.
Okay. Yeah, so your job was to twist tweak tweak it make it look I mean even with Ruer. I remember that you know, we did a porridge, you know, the The in tempting taste is fantastic.
But to make it look like a fine dining or a high -end restaurant is very, very difficult. - And I have to say, especially with Levantine food, you have to think outside the box. - You really have to think outside the box,
because, you know, how do you make a hummus look fine dining? - Yeah. - How do you make a tabbouleh? - Yeah. - You know, but because, don't get me wrong, Levantine food is beautiful. - Oh, yeah. - You know, there are so many varieties of flavors that there's a depth of flavor.
flavors But how did you go about then doing the development to take it to the next stage? Well, we we had fabulous, you know, like I say to anybody, you know A lot of it's hell of a lot of it is the plates you put it on,
you know And we had some amazing glass plates that the boys went out to places like Yemen and some really dodgy places to get some fabulous plates and decorations for the restaurant and we just came up up again with dishes that the guys knew from their home countries.
And we did a falafel, we took it, deconstructed it. We did a, everybody asks for the lobster cuvet, their black cod saia -dea. And then black cod saia -dea is just borderlining a biryani type of rice and,
you know, spiced. But the dish it came in, made it with black cod, which after Zuma was an icon. - Of course, but you want to-- - The black cod. The black cod. So it's just, again,
coming back to, it's a bit like archaeology. You're reading, you're researching, you're playing, you know, just going through the layers and... He must have learned a lot. I mean, that's still the dream. I think, I think Kabara was before its time.
Because people talk about it still. Yeah, still, still. It was before its time, was the wrong, it was the wrong location. I mean, and it was too big. I mean, there were two floors. It was... It was one of the most amazing looking restaurants I've ever seen in my life.
I mean, especially when you got the video screen, which seems everywhere has got these AI video screens now, but then it was just, you could sit and watch who it is. So unfortunately,
that concept had to close. Well, I left after, I mean, the guys that owned it, I think, went expecting the accolades and they watched it. that we got for what they wanted.
They always wanted like, they were all very nice guys. Like Lebanese, they wanted bottle service and a bit more loud music and all that. And we turned it into a fabulous restaurant.
They wanted more of a bar with food. And there's, as it started to push more towards the bar element, you know, loud and bottle service, that was time for me. I'm too old and miserable to do that.
Yeah. Yeah, but then you took the twist and then you became a business owner, partner of this fantastic Turkish modern Turkish concept called Rüya,
which again, super iconic. Not only was it incredible food, incredible ambience, you were in a beautiful location. How did that project come about?
about? The... Umut came with his father, eight at Kabara. And I remember it distinctly, they came in and they ordered the whole menu.
I mean, we're talking 35, 40 dishes, you know, for three of them. So you go out to talk to somebody there, "Guys, you can't possibly..." "No, we want to try everything, shall we try it?" And then they basically said,
"This is exactly what we want to do with Turkish food." Okay, that was it. Then I went and joined Jean -George and taught nothing more of it. About a year and a half later,
they got back in touch. We found a side, blah, blah, blah, do you want to do it? And it's still the passion for that type of food, you know, the Levantine, the Middle Eastern Arabic, when you're over here, I want to call it.
It's still the dream. I don't see why it doesn't get the recognition the same as French, Japanese, Italian, all the super cuisines of the world.
It's right up there. - So I had Greg Malouf on the show. - That man is a genius. - And I sort of question him a lot about that specific point.
- Why is it that in a region such as the GCC or the Gulf Persian, whatever you want to call it, with such a rich, diverse culture, of flavors and cultures.
Why is the food still not recognized as quite rightly what you said, Japanese, Spanish, French, whatever. Number one, number two, why hasn't had anybody really had the foresight to make this phenomenal food in a modern way?
And I completely agree with you because now I only feel right now that we have the talent coming up to start to do this in full. the diners to want to have that type of food. There's two things.
And I think we made a mistake when we took, so how do I say? In the Middle East, you know, everybody's, you can go to a restaurant and everybody is there.
Nobody, whether the locals, the expats and all that sort of stuff, everybody gets on with it. Nobody, you take a concept like Kibara and even Ruya, which we, when we moved to London. and because we were so popular here with the Emirati,
the Saudis and all that sort of stuff, when we got to London, we just packed out with locals. And if you've got a restaurant in Mayfair paying super,
super high end rate, many times we were selling as much food as rocker, for example, and yeah, I mean, it was very, very busy, but nobody's drinking. drinking. Right. So the spend per head is a lot lower.
And so it's a lot more difficult. So if I ever did it again, I'd really look at a two floor type of so where you can make everybody happy. Okay. Because it's very difficult. Obviously,
when you have a lot of people who don't drink alcohol. But then going back to Ruya, when you were developing the ingredients, how was that? And did you you,
did you actually go to Turkey? Six, seven. I mean, it was an ongoing thing. Rassin Bay, who's Omer's father, I mean, I used to go with him and I went right down the south,
which is sadly had the earthquake recently and all that sort of stuff, right to the Syrian border. And when you went, it was a wonderful gentleman. When you went to try anything but him,
he'd take you into a shop this place. place is just for the soup. So the guy in front of you on a little gas burner, now, chupi soup. Right, next shop. You know, you'd have 15 dishes for lunch.
- And it's like, wow. (both laughing) - Sounds horrendous, call it. - It was. - But then-- - But traveling around to-- - It must be amazing, yeah. - I mean, eye -opening.
- Yeah. - Because you must have learned so much, but then taking those learnings. and then taking them here to Dubai Yeah, and putting them on a plate. Yeah, tell me the guest journey when you walked through Ruya and how was the guest experience?
well When you walked in straight away, you were confronted by the central kitchen which can do by which contain the you know the bread section so you smelt the bread and everything as soon as you walked in and Then then the kebabs were there as well well.
So visually, and then you went, I mean, wonderful hotel grove in the house. But it was so many, in the winter, everybody's on the terrace. And in the summer, everybody's inside.
So it was a two thing. But the whole journey, I mean, there's certainly some iconic dishes that came out of there that, I mean, you see it a lot more now. But when we did the cheese pide,
still dream about it. - Yeah, and I slow cooked the egg, you know, 70 minutes at 72, and that just went mental, you know, everybody, you know, and the story that I start,
you know, approached earlier. So, you know, Rasimbaik, when I was in Turkey one time, he came and he said, give me a picture of Keskek, which is basically a gruel, you know, a barley porridge.
And there's no way, you know, no way. no. Next day, another photo. It's the actual national dish that's recognized by the United Nations of Turkey, Keske. So it's like cheddar cheese, it's like champagne.
Right. Okay. It's one of those. So he was pushing it forward and then it died three days and all of a sudden he's just, just, just make one, you know. And it's obviously lamb neck is in there and everything. So then we slow cut the lamb and,
you know, 24 hours and the lamb neck and made it look nice and a beautiful. beautiful pot that it came in. So, yeah, that's all I tell everybody to have. But again, that's a very filling dish.
I had a conversation with Reiner about it, six months ago when we were having lunch and he said that everything was amazing, but some of the dishes are heavy and you can't get away. There's the palenta with cheese that they eat for breakfast.
It's got two packs of butter in it, you know? - It's like chef's dream. Exactly. Wow. But then, look, the other thing I wanted to sort of ask you is,
you've obviously travelled extensively as a chef. Is it important, not just as a chef, but also as a hospitality professional, to travel? Yes. Because? Opens the eyes.
I mean, the best thing, and this is why I do get a little upset. I mean, I personally think catering is the best job in the world. I mean, nobody knows where it is, but if you knew where the Isle of Man was to see where I've been and gone,
you know, all my friends still live there. The vast majority of them still live there. I've seen the world, I've traveled, I've met some amazing people, and I think Dubai now is such a good place because it's a bubble.
And we've got all the mixtures of people, you know, the guys in the kitchen, the vast majority, you know, Indians for the people. Africans, that, you know, that sort of scattering of, say, Europeans and Turks and all that sort of stuff.
But they're still prepared. They still see the big dream. They still see the opportunities. Like every one of my chefs at the Berger Lab was Indian. And every one of them is in Canada,
Australia, New Zealand, that this was a stepping stone for them to see the world, to get, you know, passports for their children. children and have a better life for their children than they had.
So it's just a fabulous place. And all these guys are prepared to do the work. And if you go to see what it's like in Europe, certainly in Britain, obviously the double whammy of COVID and the worst one,
Brexit, has decimated. I mean, Simon Rimmer's closed his place up north. 33 years, that was open, because he couldn't afford the rent, the staffing and all that. There's nobody there. Gavrosh.
Yeah. Closed. Yeah. Marcus Wehring. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it breaks your heart because the people that want to go, if you want to be the next Gordon, the next Jason,
Heston, any of these, there's, the only way is hard work. There's no shortcuts in, in, in, in cookery. You cannot. Nobody wants to go back to the massage. misogynistic violent kitchens of the 80s I'm not saying that but there's got to be a meat in the middle you can't operate a restaurant if you do everybody does seven point six hours a week because you need two teams and you see so many restaurants in Britain now
are only open four days a week and everybody does doubles so the you know how can you make money and if you don't make money restaurant closes if you put the prices up so that there's a recession in England,
there's no other word for it, the restaurant closes because people can't afford to go out. Because also, for me, I think what was really interesting is during that time, I mean during COVID,
is people who weren't necessarily or understood restaurants or cared about restaurants, the appetite for going out physically being being in a restaurant,
talking to a waiter, seeing the chef, being served. It was, I remember the restaurants just bounced back almost overnight, certainly here,
because everybody just wanted to have that sort of human element. And I think it doesn't matter for me whether it's a high -end fine dining or a fast casual restaurant, you wanna have that experience.
I think the-- the demographic changed a lot as well. You know, obviously the two and a half, three years that nobody was really going out, everybody learned you saw it here. Could you buy flour for sourdough?
No, 'cause everybody's, I'm gonna make sourdough, or I'm gonna make pastas, you know? - An art of bread. - Yeah, good ingredients that you can make yourself. So basically what certainly happened,
I think, in Britain is to learn how to make sourdough. echelons you've got, they survived, you know, you McDonald's, you know, and then the higher end survived because the people can't make that.
And a lot of the ethnic restaurants did quite okay. But that middle, you know, that middle ground where people, you know, maybe the fish and chips, maybe the right, the pastas that you can do,
you know, yourself, not bad, a couple of bottles of water. and you've got a really nice little party with your friends. They struggled. Yeah. I think people got better at cooking themselves. - Yeah, absolutely. Of course,
and also through social media. - Yeah. - You know, they were watching the chef, so on and so forth, trying it at home. They had the time, you know, they had the furlough scheme so it was easy for them to get paid to do it.
But the other thing, Colin, I wanted to also get your standpoint on mentorship. Now, what I mean by that, specifically, specifically because you've been an owner of a business, how would you mentor specifically chefs who would want to open a business but are too afraid?
They don't have enough knowledge. What would you say to them? What would be your advice? - Firstly, get the knowledge. I mean, too many restaurants go by the wayside. You've got to really check it out. and look at it.
I mean, luckily, some of the guys that I worked with in Zoom or at Cabara, they've gone on to bigger and better things. They really have, whether it's, I helped in any way with that, it's debatable.
But hitting on something that Nick said, when Nick did his podcast, he was a year in every place. And you basically in those days, you picked up every little bit of knowledge in that year, take it with you.
I wouldn't look at it like that. at somebody like a commie chef that, you know, if I got a CB on my desk, he was a commie, a demi, a chef to party, a junior sous chef and a sous chef.
He wouldn't interest me at all to hire somebody like that. You need to have a broad, you know, when the old days, you'd look at all the chefs that you worked on, brilliant, brilliant,
brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, this guy's got to be good because you pick up a bit of knowledge from everybody. Because I think that's also a key point, is that you need... need people who are going to be solid, who are going to stay with you or see the end again.
- Especially these days where there isn't a lot of chefs anyway, a lot of people in the kitchen, you knew somebody's gonna dependable for sure. You know they're gonna turn up 'cause somebody comes in sick or,
you know, one down in a kitchen these days is a huge-- - Yeah, especially if they're skilled. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know? - Yeah. - Because also there are, as you know, the number which is banded around,
specifically within Dubai, it's 13 to 14 ,000 restaurants here. Obviously they're all different types of demographic of restaurant, but there's still restaurants. There seems to be a lot of cooks who are not necessarily qualified to do the job,
but they still want to be paid incredibly highly. I'm sure you've come across that. - Even more so in the UK now. - Amen. I mean, they come out from college with,
call me chef, but in six months they're a demi. Within a year and a half, they're chef to parties, junior to chef, because everybody just wants a pair of hands. So if you don't pay me, I know somebody. So you can walk,
there isn't, I don't think there's a restaurant in Britain where you couldn't walk in, can I have a job? I mean, it's that difficult. - Really? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Wow. - Yeah. - That's crazy, eh? - Yeah. - Yeah, because the other thing is that I'm sick.
seeing a lot of, specifically within competitions such as Uthex, which is happening, Golf Food, so on and so forth. I'm seeing a lot of particularly young,
talented European chefs coming over here now. And instead of cutting their teeth or training in Paris, London, New York, they're actually coming here because we have such phenomenal restaurants.
- Yeah. - Yeah, I think that's it. as you said, the life is good. Yeah, I won't go back. There's absolutely no chance I will go back to the you know, just only the UK, while it is like it is.
And I think I can quote Ricky Gervais here. I've lived through the best time, you know, just bone in the 60s all the way to now. It's just been fabulous. Starting a career in hospitality now,
it's very difficult. I'd rather do what I do. through the hell kitchens of the 80s than now. I definitely would. So then another question I wanted to ask you is,
because you've been in region for some time, what are your thoughts on the future of dining here? Obviously, now there's all these awards that have come. That's going to have a huge effect.
But if you look, let's talk about Zoom, you know, Ryan always said he never wanted wanted a star. And his exact words to me were, I don't need a Frenchman to tell me how to cook.
So he was never going to apply for those things. And they're phenomenally busy. And it's high -end food, but it's not Michelin. You know, Michelin is your Gregoire,
Michelin is your Himanshu and that. And there's more and more of them coming. Obviously, the new hotel that's opening. one's appeal. And so if we pick these restaurants,
big players, absolutely geniuses in kitchen. But I think Dubai is still a very young country. And I love to know what the average age of the person here is.
I'm sure it's below 40, the average age for the whole population. And they want a lot of them. want to zoom out, want to shoot each Samba or these restaurants that have a night club,
excellent food night club be by entertain, you know, all that it's a package to your ultra ultra fine dining. This is once, twice a year type of thing is the people to other enough people to frequent all the top,
top, top restaurants that are coming. It's a very niche market, so let's see. Because also, the other thing that a lot of people who I speak to, they're also asking about the future.
What's the talent coming up? Do you see a lot of talent, I mean, young talent coming up? I say to everybody, the guys that we get, you know, your Indians, your Filipinos, your Africans,
all these are guys that are so keen, so to better themselves, to really... And... and catering is definitely one of the industries where sexuality,
color, any of that makes no difference. If you're prepared to work hard and put your head down, the world you're oyster, you can do whatever you want.
And I think those guys here, and we're not short of staff as well, which makes it huge. You're lucky that the market is here, you can have as many people. So I think the future for Dubai is phenomenal,
phenomenal. So talking about the future of Dubai, what's your future now? What sort of projects are you working on? Well, I'm consulting on a British gastropub that should open March, that's down in blue water.
But as I say, the dream, and I'm speaking to a few people and I'd like to speak to anybody else if you know any millionaires, to do another cabara. That's the big dream. I've been here seven years.
long, I want to do Middle Eastern food outside the box. Not fusion. I've never done a fusion restaurant in my life, but where you take authenticity and you just tweak it,
you know? I think we need it, Colin. Yeah. You know, I think we really need that. I mean, it's a real shame, you know. Obviously, Mohammed... Or Farley, doing a phenomenal job. Phenomenal job, putting the region on the map and some of these places.
But if you come to Dubai and you say, what did you eat? I went, had a fantastic Italian, fantastic French, great Greek restaurant, lovely Japanese, and you haven't experienced anything from the culture here.
It's a waste of a trip, isn't it? - Well, totally. - You really should. And so many of the restaurants, Middle Eastern restaurants, are just your standard Lebanese type of thing. So there's far more to it than that. - Yeah, absolutely.
- Yeah. - Well, Colin, look, now we've come to the dreaded, quick fight. round, so I'll get yourself ready with the water chief. So,
first things first, sweet or salty? Salty. Fish and chips or tapas? Tapas.
No, fish and chips. All right, this is a trick one specifically for you. Queenie scallops or Manx kippers? Scallops.
Queenies. Queenies. Yeah. In fact, actually, there are more, so the traditional one, there's two traditional kipper factories on the island, man, one due to the, you know, bit as close.
So we're just down to one, you know, they don't dye the kippers, they're absolutely fabulous. Really? So we've only got one traditional. I mean, I don't want to say, but Scottish kippers quite often contain dye, ours never do. Wow. I only heard it here first.
Only kippers sold in Harrods Is it quite I think quite smelly that the factory in the island yeah, you can smell them from miles away Well, if you're in Peel you can smell them. Yes. Wow smoking shed still amazing Spicy or pickled My wife's Indian we've been married 23 years now and my spice tolerance is pretty pathetic (laughing) So I would definitely say pickle.
- Okay, I'm surprised Colin, I thought you would have been a, you know. - But it's very funny 'cause I've got two boys, Ewan and Nile. Ewan looks slightly more Indian, but his tastes are very European. - Right. - Nile is whiter than me,
he's albino. And he's chili tolerance and his love of Indian food is off the chart. - Whoa, whoa. Who would you say are your top three culinary?
heroes and they don't need to be chefs? - Ooh. - Well, for me personally, I'll always say Reiner Becker, you know. Yeah,
I think I'll throw in John Turrode. I know he's on the TV now, but John's an old friend. He bought me back to London to open Metzo back in the day. And we're still, you know, in contact with our good friends. So he'd be in there and I would say,
yeah. Anthony Boudin. - Oh, Anthony Boudin. - I still listen to his podcast once. - Anthony Boudin. - Listen to James O 'Brien walking out. I usually listen to Antio or you on the way back, you know, so it's, you know.
- By that guy, yeah. I mean, he's-- - That would have been my ideal thing. Travel, see the world. - Yeah. - But some of the things that, yeah, I think pass at that. Yeah, I don't have that, yeah, it's quite solid.
- As of right now, what would you say are your top three quizzes? cuisines that you'd love to eat? Middle Eastern, definitely.
Vietnamese and I would say British. You know what, it's the first time we've had Vietnamese,
first time we've had British. Well, British is so undervalued. undervalued, you know, and I feel really bad because I will blame Brexit.
My wife told me not to mention politics, but I will. It's OK. London and Britain in particular was at the pinnacle of the world food seat. You know, it really had gone. And sadly now because of, you know, everything,
it's starting to, I think, come down the other side. Countries like Dubai are obviously on the way up, so we're great. Right. But top quality British ingredients. cooked well. People like Hicks and Tim from Compris and all that sort of stuff.
Fallow is what they're doing in London is fantastic. - And they're opening another place. - Another place and hopefully they come here. Yeah, I think the food scene is... - But look, I think that when it comes to the British part of all side of things,
it pertains back to your childhood, you know, having top quality ingredients. equals top quality food. - Totally. - It's quite basic. - And what my pet ate is the supermarket.
Now, when I was growing up, even little villages had a fish mongers of butchers and a bread and that sort of stuff. Now everything, and I don't understand people have to work hard,
and there's two people working now, so everything's put into one big supermarket. The fish is in plastic. trays. The meat has already been prepped. You know, the skill level's on there. So how do you make great food from average ingredients?
- Right. - So, you know, and if you go to Italy, you go to France, you go to, are they better chefs than us? No, do they eat better? - Yes. - Because they'll sit around a table with their families and eat properly.
- Yeah, I agree with you. I agree. Now, Colin, I want you to go into your memory. bank. My age just a bit. What would you say is the funniest ever,
or for you, the funniest kitchen incident that you've either seen or been involved in? It could either be front of house or back of house.
And if you don't want to, for liable reasons, you don't need to name names. Oh, no, I'll spin the beans because they've involved me. Whether they're funny, I mean,
at the time, I wasn't laughing. Obviously, yeah. But now, yes. So we opened, there's two that's jumped to mind. One was in London and one was here. So we opened Metso.
You know, I was upstairs and Chris Galvin, fabulous chef, was downstairs. John Turrode was running it, you know, we're less happy. I had drinks with John, it was like, we sacked 100 people in the first year.
And probably twice as many of that walked out. It was just mental. The whole concept was minimums fridge storage. There was very, not many fridges.
Prep, serve for lunch, prep, serve for dinner. It was one of those places for deterrence. And it was modern Greek. Downstairs was French pressory obsesors, Asian. okay? And you're doing a thousand covers a day upstairs and down.
It was it was just mental some monster money Yeah, and we practiced as you do, you know, you offend friends and family It was 50 people 100 people 100,
you know But we never certainly didn't practice on more than 150 and then the opening day the opening day The queue is I don't want to be rude but the queue was like the unemployment office in Liverpool,
he went down the streets to get into this place. And obviously we didn't have enough food. I pulled the fire shutters down on the door. It was, I had, you know, the docket grabbers,
there was four on the board. And I still had a pie like that. I wouldn't have meat to my teacup. It was, it was crazy. It was the worst one. And then the other one that was mine was Cabara.
And I've never done it since. 'cause I'm terrified. So it was a, I don't know, do we still have dry days? - No. - I'm not sure. - I'm not sure. - But when we still had dry days, it was a dry day.
So we'd close the upstairs kitchen at Cabara and I sent half the guys home. There was 20, 30 people on the book, you know, carried on music blessing. How many is on the book? 100. - I don't know. - 150,
200, 250. And there's about eight guys in the kitchen. - Pfft. - I had people buy this for me. - Yeah, that was probably one of the worst.
- Pfft. - And now, you know, since then, chef at dry night, we're not gonna be busy, nobody's moving. Nobody, I'm never going through another-- - Wow. - Yeah,
I was hell on earth. - Gosh, that must have been horrid. - It was, and it was very funny, one of the chefs that I sent home came in and had a drink at the-- the bar And then came into the kitchen to see if I was okay because the language was yeah colorful He was like a rainbow and did he come in and come well He didn't until I had it no no I hadn't but ran this throat because he was laughing Yeah,
and so the lesson there is if you get sent home stairway. Yes. Yeah number one number two Never laugh when the chef is busy I think Nick said something along the line,
everything is good and bad. Of course. You know, you just, these are the stories when you're old, you'll be looking enough to get old, you know, you sit around the table with your mates and talk with them, you know? Yeah, I mean, again,
I was fortunate enough to work with Nick at Gordon Ramsay at Claridge's, Luigi Vespero, Tristan, you know, and, you know, back then, there are thousands of stories.
Oh, yeah. exactly, exactly. - But we're all best mates, also when Scott was here, and it shapes you, really. - And I think,
yes, we don't, and I said, I said it before, or touched on it before, we don't want to go back to the 80s kitchens, the misogyny, the violence, all that. But it's too sanguine now.
You need to meet in the middle, where the people that own the rest of the world, can make the money Absolutely, and there is only one way to do well in this in this job is to work hard Yeah,
if you want to get to the top you work hard it if you just want to stay a commie or a chef to party That's fine. Hmm. Do your job roll up go home But if you really want to get on it's all hard work now the final question for the quick fire Colin is What advice would you give to a 16 year old Colin Clegg?
Pretty much exactly what I did. Walk out the door and work as many good people as you can. Keep your eyes open. Work hard and see the world.
Travel. Yeah. I think that's phenomenal advice. Yeah. Not just for 16 -year -old Colin Clegg, but for anyone. Yeah. I mean, I'm way into my 50s now. I can still learn off,
you know, I'll tell you what it was. What was it? the Ritz the other day, and I saw something in a book or something about the hopper. I said to one of the Sri Lankans,
"I will get me one of those pots, this is fantastic. "I've got ideas of what I want to do with this." He comes back and it's this, it looks like aluminium, but it's obviously not, it's like cast metal rough and everything,
it's fabulous, it's in my head. And so yeah, the hopper, so he was showing me how to do it. and everything like, just 'cause you're executive chef, culinary director,
you can learn something every day, yeah. - I think that's the most amazing thing about our job, to be honest, is being also, well, the other thing Colin and I wanted to say is also being humble enough to recognize that you have that vision or you can see a dish that you could twist and turn and to have your team come and show you something,
you know, because I-- agree with you, we can learn a recipe from anybody. But I think that's also an amazing trait. And read. Read, read lots. I think reading enhances your imagination more than anything else.
So if you read, read as much as you can, and take that into the parts of your life, and it's definitely beneficial. Yeah, I agree. Now, Colin, for anyone-- wanting to get hold of you through social media,
how can they do that? - I think, what is it? Is it Manx Chef or Chef Manx? - What I'll do is I'll put everything in the show notes. - Yeah, you can always get hold of me there.
Yeah, you can put my-- - Yeah, I'm on there, but there's about three of them 'cause I keep forgetting my password. (laughing) - So I'll put Instagram and then only one can reach out. - Yeah. yeah. - And yeah,
everybody can, especially any millionaires that want to open up. - Very good. Millionaires, restaurant groups, you know, any of those. - Yeah, that's the dream. I definitely have one more,
I think, fabulous Middle Eastern restaurant in me. - I'm sure. - The imagination's going into overdrive. - Which is exciting. - Yeah, yeah. - Now, Colin, if we just have a quick recap of what we went through is your,
food memories, which I love growing up on that beautiful island, which I have not had the opportunity of visiting, but now I want to. Go in the summer. You know? So now I really want to,
to then stepping away, going to a pro kitchen in London for the first time, to then Australia, Dubai opening the Burj Al Arab iconic place, Caprice Holdings,
Zuma, of course, Kabara. Kabara, Ruya, why travel is so important. - Yugoslavia during a war. - Yugoslavia. - During a war, Israel during a war.
- I mean, if you've been everywhere. - It makes, what's it, character building? - Character building, exactly. But look, on behalf of myself and the entire team at the ChefJKP podcast,
we just wanna say thank you, first of all, for making such a... incredible impact in the industry, making such an incredible impact within the region, doing so much for so many chefs inspiring all of us.
It's really phenomenal what you're doing and really a massive thank you for taking the time to be on the show. It's really appreciated. It's a very kind of you to say so. Obviously, it's wonderful.
I do listen. Now that you showed me how to use a podcast, you need to tell everybody that. that. Yeah, now it's been a lot of fun. I wasn't as nervous as I thought I'd be 'cause it's very easy talking to friends.
But it's been a pleasure. Thank you very, very much. - Thank you so much. (upbeat music) - I told you he was inspirational. Everything that we discussed, it was fantastic to be able to sit down and really dig deep into his culinary history and to be able to get his thoughts on what the future holds.
Can you imagine the change? changes in the industry that Colin has not only seen, but also spearheaded? What I took away from that conversation is to never be afraid of change,
to take on challenges head on, and no matter the outcome, simply take these lessons, and just to keep getting better and better to always move forward. I guess that's what we all do,
especially in this industry, whether you're a commie chef, executive chef, waiter, or a restauranteur. restaurant director, there will be times when things are extremely challenging, but the key is to take a deep breath,
learn, and just keep pushing. Colin really is the epitome of the term chef. He knows the trade, he knows how to bring the best out of his team, and above all, has a clear vision when it comes to designing the dining experience.
I have to agree on his points about skill set. It is also so important to learn the basics. as these are the foundations of what is required to be at the very elite level. I have absolutely no doubt Colin will open yet another award -winning restaurant.
If you want to see more of what he is doing, I'll place all of the details in the show notes. A big thank you to JJ and the entire team at Podcast Now for producing the show and don't forget you can now watch us on YouTube.
If you haven't already, make sure to follow us on YouTube. and subscribe I would also just like to ask a small favor if you like the show You think someone you know could learn a few lessons from the guests and the conversations we have please share the show to Everyone we need to reach as many people as possible And you know what who knows perhaps these episodes can inspire someone to take action and be the very
best at what they do Again a big big thank you to you for staying on and listening to the entire show show. Your support has meant everything to me. The show is just getting bigger and bigger, so thank you so,
so much. And well, here we are again. Another season over, another run with some of the most inspirational guests, and even more food for thought.
The main message is food connects us all. We are all equal when breaking bread around the table. It is the one place that truly love can be found in the art of giving.
So, until next season, food is memories.