The Chef JKP Podcast
The Chef JKP Podcast
Season 6 - Episode 5 - Judith Cartwright - Understanding Revenue Management!
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Episode Description:
In this episode of the Chef JKP podcast, host James Knight Pachecco explores the world of hospitality industry finances with special guest Judith Cartwright, founder and Managing Director of Black Coral Consulting.
They discuss revenue generation, team management, common mistakes in businesses, and the importance of collaboration between finance and culinary teams for success.
The episode is filled with valuable insights and personal anecdotes, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the intricacies of the hospitality sector.
Topics discussed:
· Importance of Revenue Optimization in Hospitality Industry
· Insights from Judith Cartwright
· Revenue Management Journey
· Challenges in Hospitality Industry Operations
· Total Revenue Optimization Culture
· Business Turnaround Strategies
· Menu Engineering and Financial Analysis
· Dynamic Pricing in the Restaurant Industry
· Future of Food and Beverage Industry
· Maximising Revenue and Professional Growth
Key takeaways and lessons:
- Data-driven decision-making is crucial for revenue optimization.
- Collaboration between finance and culinary teams is essential for business success.
- Strategic menu design and staff training can improve profitability.
- Understanding customer demographics and industry benchmarks is vital for informed decisions.
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- The statement is finding the right price for the right customer at the right time through the right channel. And behind that sits what we refer to a revenue optimization process.
And that process starts with the data collection. So what data is being collected? How are the systems set up? And Judith, so to interrupt, is that before the business is open or during?
Before. Okay, so pre -opening So it's all, it's even before the whole concept is conceived, is that you need to understand, okay, you know, who is the audience that you want to capture?
What audience do you want to cater for? And then how do you have to set up your business? And then it didn't take too long, then we came to the restaurant reservation system. And then somebody during the pre -opening,
and that just comes back to the earlier conversation that we had, how important it is to set things up from the get -go correctly with segmentation, your price points, and everything how you want to measure later.
It just turned out that the restaurant reservation system, the tables were capped at 20 people between six and 8 p .m. out of 120 or out of 150 seats.
Finance departments, very talented in what they do. And then if the chef can take them onto the journey and if the chef can get the finance teams to understand what they want to achieve,
then the financing will not just scrutinize and question, but then they will also be able to help collaborate. Right. And they will be able to tell the chefs, you know, have you considered this? Have you considered that? And the chefs,
they need to be open to that. Of course. A lot of times the walls are also built, you know, I mean, both ways. As you know, here on the Chef JKP podcast,
we love to push boundaries and discover anything and everything when it comes to the hospitality industry. One thing we haven't dug deep into throughout my time as a host of the show are the financial numbers and how to make sense of them.
Most of us are a bit scared, don't understand or even know where we can begin. So some people are super put off by the numbers and do not really understand them. So as a special treat for you,
we have someone who is a maverick when it comes to not only understanding the numbers but also explaining them in a very easy way. Today's guest has worked for some of the biggest names in hospitality and has certainly been involved with bringing in very serious amounts of revenue to those units.
So on the podcast this week I talk to Judith Cartwright. We discuss all things revenue, how to get the best out of a team, as well as the things that businesses get wrong.
I also wanted to discover how two opposing forces, so the finance teams and operational teams, can work in harmony. As so often in my experience,
there has always been a clash between quality of produce versus cheaper costs. This is the type of conversation that as a listener you'll want to go back or take notes,
huge amounts of information and massive amount of valuable knowledge to digest. Listen out for a story about a Friday business lunch. Time to rock and roll.
Just before we begin, here is a small message from this week's guest. - Judith Cartwright, Founder and Managing Director of Black Coral Consulting. It was a great pleasure to be on this podcast,
and if you enjoyed it, please make sure that you follow, share, and like it. - Welcome back to the Chef JKP podcast. Then on the show today,
we have the Founder and Managing Director of Black Coral Consulting, Judith Cartwright. Judith, Welcome to the show. - Thank you very much, Jane, for having me. Glad to be here. - So, first things first,
before we get into all of the technical things, can you tell me your first or favorite ever childhood food memory? - Being German, that's Spätzle.
So it's a homemade pasta, and together with schlitzel, a very traditional dish homemade, by my grandmother, by my mother. And I do that quite often now for my children as well.
And even to an extent where our nanny now knows how to make the Spätzle. [Laughter] And so, what were the sort of, so that was your predominant food memory. What were the things were you sort of eating in Germany as you were growing up?
Well, Germany is all about, you know, bread, potatoes, a lot of the heavy dishes, and then also cakes in the afternoon. And that's just, you know, it's again, that's one of my passions is actually baking.
And I bake a lot with the children, all sorts of cakes, cupcakes, breads, et cetera, et cetera. Cooking de chupnodon is another one. It's almost like the Italian version of gnocchi and with your potatoes,
with your eggs, with your flowers, and they put into the hot water. And then you can make that in all sorts of different styles. The maltation, they come in all sorts of variations. And that really came from an origin from the monks because they weren't allowed to eat meat on Fridays.
And there's a city called Maulbronn, not too far away from my hometown. And they hid the meat in a pasta. So it's almost like a giant ravioli.
- Oh, wow. - And that's why they're called Maultaschen. And that's just then, you know, it's one of the traditions down south in Baden -Württemberg, my home said close to Stuttgart. And that's one of the dishes that you just don't get here in Dubai.
And then we make that at home. It's quite a bit of effort, but it's very, very tasty. So there is a niche for that dish to be here. Exactly. You know, for people to take the opportunity at least. So then when you were growing up through your adolescence,
were you involved in hospitality in any way or did you always choose another path? No, not involved in hospitality, you know, growing up, but it's just after school,
I wasn't quite sure what to do. I knew I wanted to do something more hands -on innovative. And then the hospitality aspect just then crossed my path. And then that's when I went to a hotel management school.
And then I did the business administration path, but I also worked in the kitchen back then. You know, so you had in Germany, you go through every single department, and you also go to the school.
So it's almost like many internships with every subject that you would have to cover. And then you do that. And then when you finish, then you do a longer internship and then you choose the path that you want to get into.
- So before we get into that path that you chose, how long were you in the kitchen for? - There was about four months. - And which departments within the kitchen were you doing? - It's all of them.
So it's we, At the time, us interns, it was at the Hilton in Munich, at the Park Hilton, and we were in charge of the banquet kitchen. Oh, my God. So then we were organizing huge events,
you know, and I mean, it's the, and I have vivid memories from that period of time, and some funny and also embarrassing stories, you know. But no,
but we, you know, they gave us the responsibility, and then we were in charge of putting everything together, having the banquet order, and that whole organizing was just lots of fun. And then also understanding everything that lies behind it,
even like how many pieces of butter you have to put onto the plate, you know, how many liters of orange juice you have to order. And then, you know, when you wanted to have your whipping cream, you had to go into the section for the pâtissier.
And he was a very strict one, you know, and then he said, you know, if you don't ask, you don't get. So then you always had to stand at the And then you just ask, you know, how much you wanted for what you wanted for, et cetera, et cetera.
And you better didn't spill anything. And then, you know, European chefs are very hard, right? So, but that must have been an amazing feat to sort of see all of those departments to then go into what you're doing now.
So then if we sort of fast forward into your sort of degree, why did you choose the sort of the revenue management or the management business side of things. - There was also something more by,
I always wanted to be in sales and marketing. That's always something that really intrigued me. But then I had the opportunity when I did my internship in the US in South Carolina on Hilton Head Island to learn about revenue management.
And back then, it was still quite new. And it was more inventory management, system controls and focusing mainly on rooms. And I really enjoyed that.
And then when I came back, you know, as a good German, then I felt I have to go back after three years to Germany, get some work experience onto my CV, and revenue management was even newer back then.
And then I had the opportunity to join Le Merdien, and then, you know, and then the rest is really history. So then I went from one hotel to another, had opening hotels. And then when you do opening hotels, you always had a lot to do with every single aspect of logistics.
So whether it was on the receiving side, but everybody had to help out, you know, in Germany at the time, we didn't have an army of people where everybody was doing their own thing. So whatever needed doing,
we all had to chip in and we all had to help. At one point, then I was stocking the mini bars, but that then also gave me really great insight in terms of understanding, you know, what the mini part checker has to do. And then again,
from a procurement side of things, then when you're receiving the goods, how you're handling the goods, expiration dates. And then from there, I went to Kuala Lumpur. I was transferred with Limerdian and then Starwood took over,
so then we did the Starwood transition. And again, anything related to revenue optimization and commercial strategies. And then from there, I had the opportunity to join Minor International in Bangkok. At the time,
there were 14 hotels. So Dilla Bhrayakaya, who is the CEO currently, he was the VP Finance and we join at the same day. And then there you had almost a blank sheet of paper. And I had an amazing mentor,
you know, Heidi Gempel at the time. And then we built the revenue management function. And anything to do with money with funds is so much process,
procedure, but also innovation driven. But one doesn't go without the other. You know, otherwise, then you build is almost like you imagine building a pipeline, and then if the pipeline has a crack,
the water leaks through. Or if the pipeline is clogged, you don't have the business flow. And that's anything that you do in the business, whether it's revenue management, revenue optimization, commercial strategies,
you might be spending money on one thing, but then again, if the process isn't there, you might be spending the money and it doesn't reach the end consumer, and then you don't get your return on investment. So if I just sort of backtrack to all of that,
Essentially, for those people who have never been involved in revenue management, if we were to break it down into sort of smaller segments, doesn't matter whether it's restaurants or hotels,
is there one sort of specific sort of bloodline or recipe that you follow for any business? So the statement is finding the right price for the right customer at the right time through the right channel.
And behind that, it's what we refer to a revenue optimization process. And that process starts with the data collection. So what data is being collected?
How are the systems set up? And Judith, sorry to interrupt. Is that before the business is open or during? Before. Okay. So pre -opening phase. It's all, it's even before the whole concept is conceived,
is that you need to understand, okay, you know, who is the audience that you want to capture? What audience do you want to cater for? And then how do you have to set up your business? And that goes across,
you know, how many chairs you have, and even then, you know, how your kitchen is positioned, where your kitchen is located, how is the flow and the process between the kitchen staff and the waiting staff to then serve your meal,
then your point of sale system, your recipe management systems that need to be set up, your procurement system and how you're receiving the information. You need to evaluate what data will you have and what systems do you need and then what data needs to be the input and what is it the output that you want,
which then goes into the next step of the process, which is then the analysis. And then from the analysis, then you said you evaluate, and you have your learnings, you have your rights and your wrongs or your notures.
And then from there, you would go into the strategy setting. And then from the strategy setting, you go into the activation. And then after you go into the measurement, that's when you critique. And then you identify what has worked.
And what is it that you want to stop, start and continue? Wow. So that's, but That's amazing because a lot of businesses, I would say, don't even go into those details.
They just think, "Okay, I'm going to open a place," and then they do it, and then they don't have the failsafe to do so. So then after Singapore, and you built this system,
when did you, or how did the opportunity arrive for you to come over to Atlantis? - It's the, When I was in Bangkok, then I was headhunted to join the Atlantis as their head of revenue management.
And I came from managing 14 hotels owned and managed across different brands. And then when looking at the Atlantis, it was quite an interesting journey actually because revenue management didn't exist yet.
And it was when it was pre -opening? I joined just after the opening. So in November 2009, so the hotel had just opened. And I still remember now,
I mean, now we're going back to the average room rate, but everybody was doing their head in because the average room rate was low. But it's just because the segments weren't segmented correctly and the data was collected and the data output was correct.
But the way the data was looked at and interpreted wasn't the correct way. So, your job, was it to work with the general manager? Was it to also work with the entire finance team and all the heads of department?
Correct. All the heads of department. So, first, we sorted rooms, revenue management, and then shortly after, then I was tasked with F &B revenue management for the restaurants,
because there was a numerous amount of restaurants, from celebrity chef to Michelin star, high energy, fine dining, but then also all day dining outlets. And then again, it goes back to the process,
you know, so then what do you have to do for every single business unit process wise in terms of getting that flow going. But at the time, what my biggest learning curve was is that whilst I knew what had to be done,
the audience didn't know what needed to be done. And that was really then, you know, taking people onto the journey, breaking down the barriers, you you know, from operational F &B,
everything was very fast -paced, fast -moving. The chefs in the kitchen, what do we do with you? You know, just let us cook the food, you know? So why do you talk about menu engineering? - So that's what I also wanted to understand with you.
In the beginning, especially Atlantis, you had a lot of, how should I call it, strong personalities in, I'm sure the kitchens and of course they had no idea about food cost and they had no idea about overheads They just wanted to be creative How did you how did you tackle that because it's quite sensitive especially to chefs who are like who you're finance?
What are you doing here? You know, no, it was very sensitive, you know, and then also, I mean in the end data talks, right? Got feeling walks, right? That's always what I what I say So and and a lot of things are just in a work base on gut feeling.
And then I said to the to the SAP F &B at the time, I said, give me one restaurant. And I said, and let's just try that as a case study. And that restaurant, it was Seafire.
You know, it's a family hotel I had been in Bangkok before and then at the Atlantis, maybe 10 or 11 months roughly. So then we look at the data and between six and eight o 'clock, the restaurant was just simply empty.
And then from 8 .30, 9 o 'clock, it was busy. So then I looked at the data and I just asked the question, why is that? Oh, because it's a late dining culture in Dubai, Judith. And then I thought, okay, fine.
So then what do you do when business doesn't come? Then marketing then suggests an early bird. Oh, let's just launch an early bird. Okay, fine. So we launch an early bird. Still not much improvement.
And the money that was spent on the marketing did not get the return. You see, Judith, we told you it's a late dining culture, you just don't understand. And I was thinking, if you give me something, I'm like a dog with a bone, you know,
I'll get down through to the, to the bottom. And then I said, no, okay, let's just take the process and let's just go through by through. So the data that is being collected, how is it being collected? What are the systems in place and how are they being set up?
And then it didn't take too long. Then we came to the restaurant reservation system. And then somebody during the pre opening and that just comes back to the earlier conversation that we had, how important it is to set things up from the get -go correctly with segmentation,
your price points and everything how you want to measure later. It just turned out that the restaurant reservation system, the tables were capped at 20 people between 6 and 8 p .m.
out of 120 or out of 150 seats and I asked, you know, why is that? And then I was told, oh, it's simply because the kitchen didn't want to get overwhelmed in the early hours.
But then from nine o 'clock, everything was white open. And that's why the kitchen was getting hammered every single evening from nine o 'clock in the evening, which led people to assume it's a late dining culture.
But if it's a family resort, then no. So then I sat down with the head chef, who by the way was the one that taught me how to fry the schnitzel in Munich during my internship.
Oh my God. Sasha Trima at the time, who now heads up the water park. So then we sat down and then together with the head of F &B and I said, "How do you feel about making some more tables available?" And then so we did this gradually and then that fixed part of the problem and then within months generated a million dollars more in revenues.
Oh my God. And that then helped me to get that breakthrough. So then they said, okay, well, why don't you take the next restaurant? And that was even before we started talking about menu engineering or menu design, you know, the menu engineering piece,
you know, I'm sure, you know, the audience has heard of whether you have your stars, your cows, your question marks and your dogs, which items are high in profit, but fast selling,
which items are high in profit and slow selling, which items are high in cost, but fast selling and which items are low in cost and slow selling. And then how do you position these around the menu to make sure that the customer then actually buys them?
And then we did workshops because you had a lot of silos. And that's what you also will see, that we see a lot in restaurants or in businesses, that then marketing talks about one item,
Social media about another one and I'm not exaggerating. Now when I say that then social media is pushing the stake But in reality, it's the sea bass that has the highest profitability So but you want the customer then also to purchase and to convert based on your most profitable item That is also the storytelling as part of the concept.
Wow So so in the end, how long were you involved with with the Kersner Group. - 12 and a half years. - My goodness. So that was spanned across the one and onlys.
- Correct. - Atlantis. So you must have seen and been involved in so many aspects of the operations indirectly, you know,
or understanding the chef, understanding the products. So that's quite phenomenal because the other thing I sort of wanted to ask you is, During my time when I was a corporate chef, the thing I dreaded the most was something called the BRMs or the Business Revenue Meetings and there was always the head chef or the executive chef of the unit would come and it would be like an interview because you'd have the revenue
manager, general manager and they're all asking you, "What's the food cost? What have you done this and some of the chefs just get completely defensive and they don't want to be there.
Those kinds of chefs, what advice would you give them when it comes to sort of dealing with the numbers or dealing with the finance team? It's the understanding your business and I think the advice that I would give to the entire business is not just to the chefs,
because the chefs, they need to be creative, they need to cook, they need to get the advice from the finance team to, you know, if the finance team or the revenue management team was to say, you know, chef, if you tweaked XYZ,
does this work with your menu and then your food cost might improve? Or, you know, depending what the objective is, when you look at restaurants in hotels, a lot of time is spent around what the breakfast allocation is to the FB department.
But nobody speaks about, you know, so how do we have maybe seasonal pricing in restaurants? Because when you look now in, look at Dubai, whether it's an independent restaurant or it's a restaurant within a hotel,
and I'm not talking about dynamic pricing just yet, but we expect the low season customer to spend the same amount for a pasta dish like during the high and the peak season.
So why they're not, you know, amend your menu so that you're able to have more bundling, more packaging, so that you actually then speak to the audience. And that's also how you avoid in the summer months or the deliveries coming into the hotels,
right? And then that's, that's then also how the hotels can convert a lot more of their restaurants and their dining. And that's one of the common problems here in Dubai. But the advice then too for the chefs,
I would give, I mean, there are training classes available, you know, on the numbers. There are, you know, I'm part of the, I'm the chair for the Revenue Optimization Advisory Board with HSMEI.
Trainings can be done there. There are great conferences and then sometimes also just reach out to your Revenue Manager, Revenue Director at the hotel and just say, look, you know, can we sit down?
These are my challenges. How can we fix and collectively. Because when it comes to the challenges, Judith, the other, I'm sure you're very much aware, the most common I get, and I speak to a lot of different people,
is the constant fight between purchasing manager and exec chef. The chef knows his products really well,
inside out, quality so on and so forth, but the purchasing manager has to bring in the bottom line almost. So there's always that fight. How can we have common ground there?
Because it's not easy. That's not easy. And then it's also for, you know, from a purchasing perspective, a lot of times what's a challenge then also for the chef is then when the recipes are built in systems and ingredients are added and then the supplier changes.
So then you have to change that again right in the system. So again, it goes back to how the systems are managed and how the systems are set up and that the right product is purchased that has the quality that the chef wants.
A lot of times it just simply gets confusing for purchasing because there are just so many ingredients in the recipe management system. If then the ingredients that aren't relevant anymore,
if the menu changes, can they be moved to inactive? And that way, then, it also gives the procurement department a much clearer oversight to help them achieve their KPIs.
And then for the chefs to achieve their KPIs. And it's just sitting down to understand, OK, what are the KPIs? What is it that we want to achieve collectively? And how can we get there? So how can we improve the food cost without me jeopardizing the quality of the products that I'm using?
How can then the whole menu become more profitable and that doesn't mean that you have to change things. Sometimes you just, well, that you have to remove things.
Sometimes you just change a few things around and that comes back to the menu design. I mean, when you go and dine in restaurants, you know, have a look at the menus and what stands out,
nine out of 10 times, it's the price point versus the actual dish. And if you're able to do the dish so that it's storytelling, that is enticing, that is the customer understand these ingredients have been locally sourced.
And that's why the ingredients or that's why that dish is so unique. Then you get this across social media. And then you push that out, you do the storytelling. And then you see, and that's the whole 360 degree approach.
It doesn't just start with a chef or with procurement, and it doesn't end with a chef and with procurement. It's really that 360 degree cycle of what you do from an activation perspective, commercial strategies,
finance, revenue management, chef and procurement and understand what is it that we want to achieve, set the KPIs, set the dashboards and the data that people can read and not just a whole bunch of numbers to make sure that the data is storytelling so that the chef can easily see on the matrix and on the dashboard,
you know what? This is what I need to tweak. And you know what? This worked extremely well. That's what I'm going to push going forward. - Because also the, I mean, being with, or spending so much time within Kersner,
they're also notoriously well known for having the very best of the best restaurants and gastronomy in the world. So does that model still work for the high -end fine dining restaurants?
- It does. And again, it comes back to what is it that you want to achieve with the fine dining high end restaurants from a bigger picture perspective. You might make more revenues per square meter from a fast moving fast food restaurant,
right? Versus a fine dining restaurant per square meter. But that's not the objective. Then the fine dining restaurant goes back to the storytelling to the experience that the guest is going to have at the hotel. It's again,
something that the hotel can use from a social media perspective or if you use the independent restaurants, you know, the brands, some of the famous brands around the world, then it's a very fine balance because they always,
if they want to grow, they then also need to make sure that one, they are profitable. But at the same time, that formula needs to be adopted and adjusted gradually,
but it still works. So then after your 12 and a half years, you now have this company, Black Coral Consulting. Why did you decide to break away after such a long stint?
I mean, it was an amazing experience and, you know, the experience that I've been able to gain with, you know, across casino, across concerts, across spa, across water parks,
across rooms and various F and B outlets. And it's always been a dream of mine to do my own consultancy. The time was right. I always said that when my son goes into grade one,
I'll do that. The pandemic came to an end and it was the right time to launch. And it's been an amazing journey. And now we're helping owners, asset managers, and management companies to unleash their profit potential.
So then I want to ask you, how tricky is it to sort of be dealing now with asset managers and owners and Everybody has different visions for the business. How do you go about dealing with those things?
So it goes back to alignment, understanding what is everybody's objective and then really to create that total revenue optimization culture. And that's really important.
It's you need to have the people on the journey with you to get the buy -in. We do a lot with workshops. We listen to, you know, what Everybody around the table, what is their objective?
And most times, you know, people have a different objective. You know, what's important to you as the chef versus what's important to the head of procurement? And then we bring the synergies together. And then we identify,
you know, where are the gaps and where are the rooms for improvement? Or simply how do we help to elevate the business to the next level? But most importantly, how do we build the bridges between the teams?
And then whether it's within the team of an existing hotel, how do we build the bridges between the owner and the management company and the asset manager? So how do we make sure that the management company delivers what they've promised the owner and not just do the commercial planning and the strategy during the budget time and then get the sign off from the owner.
But then we would also make sure that then the owner knows where and how to follow up that the management company actually implements that. - Because Judo, I just wanna sort of pinpoint something that I think that is a very tricky thing to do because how do you get the buy -in of the owner?
How do you get the buy -in of the management company have a vision for the certain asset per se? Then the owner has a separate vision. Then they bring you in, you know. Your predominant job is of course to listen both sides and then mediate,
because that must be not arduous, but quite tricky to make everybody understand. Then there has to be one vision. There is one vision, and then also then, you know, where do you meet? So I'm actually now about to launch a book on asset management with a commercial lens.
Oh, amazing. Because a lot of times the owner's asset manager comes from a finance background. And then on the, or from a GM's background, the management The management company has the commercial strategies and it's really then making sure that how do you make sure that you optimize the both.
And everybody has an amazing wealth of talent and skill sets. But it's making sure that the one understands the other, that the money is spent in the right area, but then also that the owner makes funds available to spend in the right areas and then also sees the return.
And 99 .9 % of everything that we do, we can tie back to an ROI. That's also when we engage with somebody, we set the goals of what we want to achieve then collectively. And then you work through that,
you find out then again, where's the process, where are the gaps? And it's when you really turn every single stone, then you find out it's like peeling back the onion. So the more you peel back,
the more you can look under the hood. And I always say, it's like, don't expect what you don't inspect. And that's also the key, even if somebody tells you this is how it's done, then we go in,
we dig deep, and then we identify, is that actually how it's being done? And is that also everybody else's perception, and not just like what we think is being done and what's actually happening? Right. But I think that's an amazing point,
because, yeah, you're absolutely right. You need to really dig deep to ensure or to know what's going on. It's just like going back to your first point about Seafire, you know, and a simple reservation error,
then brought in, you know, or a tweak, brought in millions, which I think is amazing. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Chef Middle East. Ever wondered if your culinary creations could reach new heights?
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Now back to the episode. So then I want to understand if a business, kitchen, restaurant, whatever it may be, is in a time or is in a time of financial crisis and you were to be brought in,
then how do you start or go about working with those teams to turn that business around? I mean, first then, you would sit down with the team just simply to understand how the business has been conceived.
What was the vision? Where are we now in comparison to where we inspired to be or wanted to be, how long the business has been open, and then the first step would be is then to look at the financials.
What do the financials say, but then also how are the financials retrieved? And then we go straight into the systems before we start even talking about any changes, any commercial strategies, any change of concept.
We would take a look at the demographic. How does this compare to industry benchmarks? And then you go into or details before you even go into the menu engineering, you look at your meal periods and how busy is every single period.
How many people are actually dying? You know, what is then your conversion in terms of your covers? How long are people sitting? How are the systems set up? How does it work between procurement?
Who does what, right? And that's then usually what we do identify the first gaps and the first speaks for improvement before we even start talking about the menu. Then we download the data and then we look at the menu engineering matrix,
then again to identify which items have a high cost but are selling well and which items have a low cost but are not selling well. And then you would go through the menu item by menu item,
sit down with a chef, then to understand, okay, so why is this dish on the menu? Are we able to find different suppliers to reduce the cost? Are we able to increase maybe the pricing?
Do we have to change the name of the dish? Do we have to make it more descriptive? And then you would go into the design, and you almost have to imagine the menu design like the Google heat map, right?
So when you take a menu, where does your eye go? And where your eye goes? And that's where you would want to have your highest, your item that you want to push. The one that you believe in and the one that you convince that this is the dish that you want to promote on social media,
that that's the dish why your guests are going to come to the restaurant, you want to place where it actually converts. And then we look at the staff training from a waiter perspective. Do they know which item the chef wants to convert?
Do they know what is the most profitable item? And then that becomes then what the waiters are suggesting to you as the customer in combination with starters, your beverages,
et cetera, et cetera. And then you would then evaluate again the data later to see what has actually worked, but then also from an activation perspective, and that's almost the chicken and the egg approach. So then if you have an underperforming business,
you still need to spend money in certain areas in order to push it. But then you also need to allocate the funds and then you need to put the stake in the ground by when things should improve for you then to again, make the tweaks.
The other thing I wanted to sort of also ask you from not just a Dubai perspective, but UAE perspective, do businesses nowadays very seriously consider marketing and PR budgets?
Because it's an integral part, it's a must have nowadays, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, not so much. Yeah. But how do you see that now budgeting -wise? Budgeting -wise,
not enough businesses are actually doing. So again, when we come back to the commercial plan in hotels, a lot of time is spent on the rooms just simply because that's where the highest profit comes down.
And imagine if people spend 50 % more of their strategic time on other business units. So for restaurants, for spas, for retail, how much more that could improve?
And we always talk about the magic percentage for the food costs, you know, 28, 29%. But why? Why can it not be better? Well, why not have a higher food cost but have, you know,
higher revenues? I mean, you know, why is that the magic number? That's something that people don't challenge and how do you actually tweak that? And maybe you have to have a different food cost for a certain period of time in order to turn the restaurant around,
but then later then you scale it down again. Especially during the summer, as you said, and you mentioned something earlier, which I also want to understand, tell me about dynamic pricing. So dynamic pricing,
it comes back to finding the right price for the right customer at the right time through the right channel. And dynamic pricing is all around you. You have different pricing when you just say an Uber or a Karim right now.
If you're leaving during business peak periods, you pay more for your journey Then when you travel in the less when you do your deliveries, a lot of the apps now they charge more higher premium during the peak demand periods rooms,
they fluctuate the pricing based on price and demand and and restaurants don't do that quite yet in the U .S. It's coming and there is a system being developed called juicer,
which I'm very curious to see how it's actually going to work. But then also when you look at seasonal pricing. So maybe for restaurants we talk about seasonal pricing before we talk about dynamic pricing. And we have different spending power in Dubai throughout the year or in the UAE,
you know, across the UAE. The summer customer comes on a smaller budget than the, let's say Q4 and Q1 customer. So for them to pay, let's say,
let's just say ice cream, 20 dirhams for a scoop of ice cream is five times the price that you would pay for a scoop of ice cream in Italy or in Germany, you know, just as an example. So if you're coming on a smaller budget, that is still very expensive for you.
So imagine if then hotels adjusted that slightly, but then have a higher conversion, which is then again in favor of the food cost instead of selling less at a higher price point.
And could that also work? Because I do agree with you 100%. Could Could that also work for the higher end restaurants in the summer in this region? It could also work.
Again, if they were able to attract more volume based on that and have more opening timings, they could still have their minimum spend for certain sections or for certain areas.
That's also a point of dynamic pricing or finding the right, if you then have certain sections or were to bundle your meals, you know, so what are your two items that have a low food cost that you could bundle together as a dish that are complementing one another?
And would that then, if let's say for example, I were to be a restaurant and I was located within a hotel and I still have to pay the hotel rent or whatever it may be,
how then would I approach either the general manager or the director of revenue to say, listen, throughout the summer period, I want to reduce my prices. So can we discuss how it would work with my rent or how we would discuss with the split?
How would you go about tackling that? - So that's something that you would have to calculate through on a cost -benefit analysis. So if you were to reduce your pricing,
how much more revenue could you generate in theory? And would that actually warrant to reduce the lease or the rent of the restaurant? Or do you actually simply then achieve a profitable EBITDA?
Because that's also a lot of businesses here in the summer. They have a negative EBITDA. What does it mean for people who don't know what that is? Okay, so that's basically your earnings before interest and taxes,
etc. So, you know, or then just simply your profitable cost, you know, in simple terms. So would you then run a profit over these months versus not having a profit and running negative numbers over that period?
So then the other thing I want to sort of get from your perspective is, what are the common denominators that you have seen operators get completely wrong when it comes to the numbers?
It's not understanding the numbers and making decisions looking at the numbers. That's the number one thing or not understanding what's happening on the floor. So just to give you another example,
I was at a restaurant, I don't know, maybe now 12 months ago, 18 months ago, and I was having lunch, a business lunch, and it's a restaurant on a very high floor with lots of nice views across Dubai.
And the business lunch was not available on a Friday. And the first thing then we came and then we sat down and the first thing then the waiter said, Oh, by the way, today, there is no business lunch. And then we said, okay, that's fine.
You know, and we just simply assumed it was going to be busy. We'll just order a card. The restaurant normally is pumping and it's busy from 12 o 'clock onwards. And then we sit down and there were three more tables occupied.
And then I asked the waiter again, I said, so are you expecting a large group or, you know, what's happening? So I assumed it's going to be very busy because you don't have the business lunch available. Oh, no, it's because it's Friday.
And then I said, you know, looking at this amazing view across Dubai. And then I said to my friend that we were having dinner, I said, I know exactly what the problem is.
So then again, then I asked for the manager to come over and I said, look, I said, what time do people come on a Friday afternoon? Oh, they come at three o 'clock. And I said, is that because it's after prayer time?
And then he said, yes. I said, so why don't you have This is lunch available that goes from noon until 2 .30pm. Oh, because it's the weekend. And I said, but look around you, it's not busy.
I said, now if you want to rise and shine with your management, who probably made the decision sitting somewhere in a corporate office, assuming it's going to be busy because it is Friday and not looking at the data.
And then that was adjusted. And I was thinking, I should have free lunches in that restaurant for But then I never took it forward, you know, and I was just thinking, you know, that's, that was in my good deed,
you know, bringing it back to the business. But that's just a lot of times it's, it's the systems, it's understanding the data, but then also questioning the data. Why is it? And again, what is it that you want to stop,
start and continue? And that's even before you go into profitability, food cost, or anything like that evaluations. And that's really critical. It's really understanding who is your customer audience,
Who is your customer that's coming and how do you have to adjust your business to cater to that customer? So, if it's a summer customer who doesn't come to your restaurant because it's just simply a low season customer, less spending power,
what do you have to tweak with your business to make sure that they can come and how do you make sure that you then capture that audience? But isn't it incredible how some small tweaks can make such a monumental difference to a business?
A lot of Sometimes it's not rocket science, you know, and a lot of times people get scared when they just hear the data or when they have to look at an Excel spreadsheet coming back to your earlier comment, then when the chef is getting interviewed,
scrutinized about the data, you know, so that then also doesn't allow the chef to think creatively than if every time the focus is only on the food cost, you know, but then what else can I do to improve the overall experience for the guest?
How can I create the synergies. How can I make sure that the commercial teams understand what I want to achieve with my restaurant? And how do I, as the end consumer, understand why I should come to your restaurant?
What's the uniqueness about it? And then when you go into the storytelling? I think it's a really incredible point, Judith, because if everybody was to take that particular thing where everybody sat down and began to think about synergies when it came to the business.
I think everybody would really, I mean, certainly back in the day when I was looking at the spreadsheets and then, you know, you've got the direct, the financial direct say, no, no, no, no, no. And you're just like, okay,
I'm trying to do that. But I have Ramadan to contend with, I have summer to contend with, and then you want me to hit a 20 % food cost, but then you've just changed the supply, which is, you know, it's, yeah.
You know, and finance, finance individuals, financial departments. Very talented in what they do. And then if the chef can take them onto the journey, and if the chef can get the finance teams to understand what they want to achieve,
then the financing will not just scrutinize and question, but then they will also be able to help collaborate. And they will be able to tell the chefs, you know, have you considered this? Have you considered that? And the chefs,
they need to be open to that. Of course. A lot of times the walls are also built, you know, I mean, both, both ways, both ways. Yes. Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know,
the only thing I've done and learning the hard way is to have an open and honest conversation with the finance team and be like, guys, how can we,
this is what I need to do. I know what you guys need to do. How can we work together? You know, and I agree with you, you know, once you bring them on, they understand the operation and so on and so forth, and the challenge is much,
much better. But throughout your time, whether it's with your current business, or whether it's with your previous colleagues or businesses,
what has been your biggest sort of challenge to turn around? No, the biggest challenge to turn around was building the culture.
So, and that takes a long time. So, you know, it sounds quick that you do one workshop, but it's not done with that. So sometimes you build the culture until people get comfortable and it takes 12 months. - So explain,
let's dig deep into that, Juna. - So if you wanted to get all the departments around the table to understand, let's say, food costs, profitability, menu engineering, menu design,
and you do a workshop collectively and tweaking these workshops to get the breakthrough now or the aha moment that then the organizations have. That has been not so much a big challenge,
but a lot of effort, you know, but because with every workshop, then you learn, but when you get the people and you make them interactive and you understand everybody and then you mix up the talent within the pool and you do that combined with quizzes.
And at the end, then you set a strategy plan. But the strategy plan is not set by myself. It's the team that sets the strategic plan with the actual plan, and then also with the timelines. And then we come in and we hold it together,
and then we help them to implement that. But the biggest challenge for me, like in my career was understanding revenue optimization, but getting other people that aren't analytical to understand what that actually means and to help to take out the fear factor.
Why then it's so important to have the whole overarching commercial strategy departments on board with you aligned, you can have the push and pull, you can have the agreements, you can have the conflict.
That's very good because you know when people don't always just sit around the table and nod and agree with you, then a lot of times they don't understand, they don't want to challenge or they don't challenge you.
And that's been one of the biggest learnings throughout my career, is making sure that you have the right balance and that you take the people onto the journey that you create that culture. And that's one of the biggest pieces that big organizations have missing today.
They all talk about F &B revenue management. They all talk about many engineering, many design, and it's happening to a certain extent. But how do you take what you have to the next level?
level that's really what makes or breaks your business. That's an amazing piece of advice also because you're right if you get everybody into the same culture you're absolutely right and it's very much the same when I've worked at the highest level kitchens everybody has just one mindset and you know exactly the goal so I think that's amazing.
Now how do you see since being in the region for some time, how do you see the future of food and beverage within the region? - Oh,
here it's endless. I mean, just when you see and what's coming up, I think here the future a lot more is on the homegrown products that can be utilized. And you see more and more now when you do your food shopping,
you know, just like as a normal consumer without doing the food shopping necessarily for restaurants, how much more On the fruits and the vegetables are actually grown locally, which I think is amazing The fact that you know,
we now have access to our own oysters and we don't have to bring them You know necessarily all the time from other destinations is amazing the whole food aspect home grown and Sustainability that's also very important.
And I mean there are some you know some great companies that do a lot with the food waste management and they repurposed the food waste. And I mean, the other day I was at a conference and it was at the Conrad on Shakespeare Road,
part of Hilton. And then they had along the breakfast buffet the little tubes. And that was just the composted food waste that you could then take with you. And then I took like two tubes home with me and then I planted tomatoes at home with the kids.
Oh, how amazing is that? You know, so it's just like just for them to see and that's something then also as a parent I've always been missing here in Dubai to make sure that the kids actually realize where the food is coming from which I think is really important you know for the generations to come or then initiatives like the bio emmerz farm is doing where you can take the family out for the farm days where the
children then learn how to grow and to learn more about the organic the organic products. Organic products here in the region, I think have a lot more opportunity for growth.
It's something that's really strong across the European countries, not enough available here, because just so much still has to be important. And since the arrival of Michelin,
Gomelow, 50 Best, have the revenues improved? Have they gone down? Because what tends to happen is that you have your standard restaurant that everybody goes to has not been in the guide,
has a certain price, and then as soon as they're in some type of guide, then the price is skyrocket 30 % plus. Is that the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do, do you think? Again,
it comes back to who is your audience and if your restaurant is still full and you don't suffer in terms of your covers, then why not? And maybe before it was underpriced.
But not everything in terms of revenue optimization always has to be with the price increases. Dubai has very high price tax around every single restaurant. And I think it just needs to go hand in hand.
Does it have to be 30 % straight away? No. When the alcohol tax was removed, did the alcohol drop by that equal amount? No. So I think certain things need to be passed on back to the end consumer.
But then also if There are, if you're able then to hire a better quality talent, if you're able to give back more to your employees, if you're able to increase your bonuses that you're paying,
it all depends what is the objective of the price increases, not just because now you're in the Michelin Guide, but if that now warrants that you can reposition your product, then I think,
again, it comes back to the strategy and comes back to finding the right price for the right customer at the right time. - Yeah, Absolutely. Now, Judith, we have come to the quick -fire questions of the show.
So, first of all, are you sweet or salty? Sweet. Cheddar or Parmesan? Parmesan. Sunday roast or fish and chips?
Sunday roast. Now, these don't need to be necessarily chefs, but who would you say are your top three culinary heroes. - That's very interesting. Well,
one of them is my mother, you know, who has, yeah, an amazing talent for cooking and passed that also then on. And then I love Nobu.
And again, he's also like an amazing chef. And it's just, you know, having met him numerous times and, you know, there is a certain level of relationship, but then also how the company was built and how it's been grown,
and then also then domestically, I've got great admiration for a local grown brand. That's one is actually two, one is Mythos, which is also in JLT, and then also for Kaffee Isan.
And I think, you know, it's just then also on how businesses were built from the ground up by believing in the right product. Amazing customer experience, amazing culinary journey. Kaffee Isan brings me back to my time living in Bangkok,
so I'm going to the side soys, I'm more the street food, I love going to the big brands and I love going to the nice dinners, but really down the chefs that really inspire me are the ones that have created the street food scene atmosphere and where you really get the true authentic dishes.
And those are two amazing places because Cafe San is just open in time out and Mythos has just entered the 50 best discovery list in San Pellegrino, so and they're both,
yeah, phenomenal places, really. So then, when it comes to favorite cuisines, what are your top three? My top three, okay. Can I group Asia altogether?
Yes, yes. So it's definitely Asian, Italian, and German. Okay. And how much German food do kids know at home. Still quite a bit. Yeah.
You know, I do cook quite a lot of the traditional German dishes. And then also especially the ones that we eat in Germany in the summer that you cannot buy here. Oh, amazing. Yeah.
Amazing. So, and now I can't wait for asparagus season. So, asparagus until it comes out of our ear. So then, if it was to be your last meal on earth, what would it be?
That would definitely be my schnitzel and the schnitzel. So then, Judith, if you could, what advice would you give to 16 -year -old Judith?
16 -year -old Judith. Don't sweat the small stuff. Find mentors. Go out of your comfort zone and ask for help. Don't pretend you need to know it all without the experience that you have.
And then even if the tone can be rough sometimes, you know, especially then also then when you were in the kitchen. I mean, I still remember, you know, I was, I was in banquet at the time, and then we had the fashion week. I think I was like two weeks into my internship.
And then I was told, you know, as back then we still wrote everything down manually. And then we had to give the receipt down to the kitchen. And we had to ask them how much it costs, because then that's what had had to be charged again on the banquet floor to the vendors that were exhibiting for the fashion week.
And then I remember going down and I was just happy that I found the kitchen, you know, from the banquet floor. It was a big hotel. So then I found the kitchen and then I went first, you know, to the wrong section of the kitchen and it was spaghetti bolognese.
So I went to the cold kitchen. Oh, you don't get that here. Okay, fine. Go to the next section. Again, again, wasn't the right one, was the, you know, in the pâtisserie, but I had no clue that this was the pâtisserie. And then I go to the,
you know, for the, the warm kitchen and then I was just like relieved because I didn't have much time to go back up and the food had to go back up, right? And then the sous chef then asked me, so how much does it cost?
I said, how should I know? And then he said, you have to ask me that question, but it wasn't quite that friendly. Yeah. You know, so it's then again, And that just then, you know, scared me in the beginning quite a bit.
But then, like, throughout my career, I learned that it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to say, "I don't know what I have to do." It's okay to say, "I don't understand." And I think that's the advice that I would give to the younger audience and also to the younger self,
that even though people expect that you know what you need to do, they don't know what you don't know, you know? And they don't know that you need help, and that's really important that you just simply ask for help.
I think that's amazing advice, Julie, it's really. So then, if I wanted to learn more about maximizing revenue or learn anything and everything to do with revenue,
and I don't know anything, what would be your advice on that? Because I know that you're involved with certain organizations. Well, there are some really good articles available online, but I'm also the chair of the H of the HMMI,
Revenue Optimization Advisor Board here based in Dubai in the Middle East. We do an annual conference, which is the commercial annual conference, but we also have a mentorship program.
And that's also then for people that want to get advice, want to be coached on their numbers, on their knowledge on revenue management, or to simply want to be mentored and coached in regards to how they should be approaching,
how to build the bridges between the departments. And we've just launched that, so applications were still accepting. If anybody who is listening to the podcast wants to apply, they can follow me on LinkedIn,
they can follow Blackroll Consulting. I've also done numerous thought leadership pieces online. Some were featured with Hotel Catering Middle East, so they can reach out directly and I'm happy to have a chat for anybody who wants to know a bit more.
And there are a lot and then guide them to the right resources that might help them. So what I'll do is I'll put all of those in the show notes for everybody to answer. Okay, great. So Judith, I just wanted to sort of have a recap of what we've been discussing because it's just been amazing.
From your childhood food memories to your education, the banqueting kitchens, the passion, obviously revenue management, 12 years at Kursner, which is amazing.
That's no mean feat. I think that's phenomenal. Of course, having your amazing Black Coral Consulting Company that you finally had your own dream to do that, I think is amazing. And really, all of the advice to do with revenue optimization,
connecting departments together, I think, is such incredible and refreshing advice. Because if more people were together like that, so much more revenue and business and synergy would be fantastic.
So, on behalf of the ChefJKB podcast, I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to come and really, I have learned a huge amount and I'm sure the audience have too. Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for having me. It was a great pleasure. How about that, Guy? Judith was really able to break down many key factors when it comes to the full explanation and understanding of those numbers,
even when people think they know better just by doing a bit more detective work you can get very surprising and fruitful results. It is not easy to also be tasked with the financial revenues of such a venue like Atlantis.
There are so many variables that can go wrong, For example, the spa, hotel rooms, to all of the different restaurants. However, Judith found a way to optimize those revenues in order to generate financial wins for the business.
At the same time, that decision to go it alone must not have been easy, but imagine Judith now runs her own very successful company and is also able to help businesses to thrive.
Honestly, it's conversations like this that can really open up our minds and think about the entire ecosystem of hospitality. It doesn't matter if you're a chef, waitress,
bartender, whatever you are in the industry, you would have been able to take something away from this. And that's why we really do these conversations. If you want to see more of what Judith is doing, I'll place all of those details as always in the show notes.
A big thank you to JJ and the entire team at Podcast Now for producing the show, and don't forget you can now watch us on YouTube. If you haven't already, make sure to follow, share and subscribe,
plus a five -star review no less. I would also just ask a small favour. If you like the show or think someone you know could learn a few lessons from the guests and the conversations we have,
share the show so that we can reach as many people as possible. And who knows, perhaps these episodes can inspire someone to take action and be the very best at what they do. As always,
thank you, thank you, thank you for staying to the very end of the show, you absolute legend. Until next time, food is memories.