Bringing Universal Emotions to Life with Inside Out 2 Writers Dave Holstein & Meg LeFauve

Ever wondered what it takes to bring a beloved Pixar movie to life? Join us for an insightful episode featuring Dave Holstein and Meg LeFauve, two creative forces behind "Inside Out 2." Dave shares his childhood dream of writing a Pixar film and the high-pressure but exhilarating experience of bringing it to fruition. Meanwhile, Meg dives into the grit and determination required to turn creative ideas into reality, offering a candid look at the perseverance needed to overcome industry challenges.

We also explore the profound impact of storytelling on young audiences. Dave and Meg discuss how films like "Inside Out" resonate on a deeply emotional level by staying true to authentic human experiences. They emphasize the therapeutic power of storytelling, focusing on universal emotions like joy, sadness, and anxiety. Their reflections reveal how these films not only entertain but also help viewers feel understood and less isolated in their feelings.

Finally, we take a behind-the-scenes look at the intricate process of creating animated characters and worlds. From the initial sketches to the final edits, Dave and Meg share the collaborative efforts needed to breathe life into complex emotions like envy and embarrassment. They also discuss the personal and professional challenges of world-building and running a TV show, providing an honest and inspiring glimpse into the highs and lows of bringing creative visions to life. Don't miss this engaging episode filled with raw insights and heartfelt stories from two industry trailblazers.

If you are enjoying the show please subscribe, share and review! Word of mouth is incredibly impactful and your support is much appreciated!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:24

This is the Stop Time Podcast. I'm your host, lisa Hopkins, and I'm here to engage you in thought-provoking, motivational conversations around practicing the art of living in the moment. I'm a certified life coach and I'm excited to dig deep and offer insights into embracing who we are and where we are at. So my next guests are two incredibly talented writers and producers whose combined work has left an indelible mark on the entertainment industry. Between them, they have created and contributed to some of the most memorable films and television shows of the past decade, earning numerous accolades and recognition for their outstanding storytelling abilities. Dave has been a driving force behind critically acclaimed series like Kidding, a Golden Globe nominee for Best Comedy Series, and I'm Dying Up here. His extensive experience includes writing and producing for beloved series such as the Brink, raising Hope and Weeds. He's currently developing an exciting new series for Apple TV+. Additionally, his contributions to the world of theater include a musical adaptation of the Emperor's New Clothes, which received a National Alliance for Musical Theater grant and is published with Rogers and Hammerstein Theatricals. His work has been performed in Edinburgh, sydney, new York and Chicago, and his podcast musical Wait, wait, don't Kill Me earned him the Sarah Lawrence International Award for Audio Fiction and a Webby Award.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Meg is no stranger to this world. She has been recognized with an Oscar nomination for Best Screenplay for the Pixar blockbuster Inside Out, winning an Annie Award for the same. Her storytelling prowess extends to the good dinosaur, marvel's Captain Marvel and the recent Netflix animated film my Father's Dragon. Beyond screenwriting, she has made significant contributions as a producer, garnering Emmy and Golden Globe nominations and a Peabody Award. Together. They are here with me right now, and they are co-screenwriters for Disney's much anticipated upcoming sequel, inside Out 2. And it is my pleasure to introduce these two creative powerhouses. Dave Holstein, welcome and Meg LeFauve, hey guys, thank you. Thanks for having us. Oh, it's my pleasure.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Speaker 1: 2:42

It's absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for stopping by. I really appreciate it. Hey, dave, I read somewhere that writing a Pixar movie was your childhood dream, and also that Inside Out was your favorite Pixar movie. So talk to me is realizing your dream, what you thought it was going to be.

Speaker 3: 3:02

I mean, dreams are always a minefield of expectation. I started interviewing for Pixar maybe 10 years ago, I think, on Toy Story 4, and could never quite get the stars to align. And, yeah, I really lucked out on not just getting to work up here, but getting to work on a movie that really gets at what I hope movies can be, which is both entertaining and enlightening. And to be able to do that with Meg has also just been wonderful. We worked together many years ago and this has been a very lovely reunion.

Speaker 1: 3:49

Another question for you about that, dave, because when we have these big dreams and we realize them, a yay right, I mean that's thrilling and exciting. But I'm so curious were there things that you kind of expected that were as you expected them to be? Were there other things that kind of made you go, wow, that's not what I thought.

Speaker 3: 4:05

Yeah, I mean, it's funny when you are in this field, your dreams involve the dream of harder and harder work. You know, and you sort of know when you go down this path that what you're really hoping for are challenges. You just call them dreams and you're kind of always wishing for that new door to appear. And you know, when you open that door it's going to be nothing like you expected. You know, and you just have to be ready to, to, to battle whatever's on the other side. And I feel like you know the, the Pixar experience, the experience of writing this film. You know it's very different than writing anything else and so nothing really prepares you. You just sort of jump in and tackle what is an enormous production, an enormously high bar from the culture, an enormously complex story, as I'm sure Meg can tell you that you're always writing in three dimensions on a movie like this no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 5:28

The chance to conquer, the chance to do. I love that you see it as an opportunity. Right, it's presented as a challenge, but there's clearly an element of excitement and I know, having spoken with Meg and by the way, she's smiling, I mean that's part of what you can relate to. Right Is that there's the challenge and it is a chance.

Speaker 2: 5:49

Meg chime in on that a little bit. Yeah, you know, for me there's always the dream, is always like this idea in your head or the creativity in your head and what could be, and a lot of the projections at that point are about how good it's going to be, because it's still in your head, right, Even if you're coming in on something that's already moving. You have an idea of how you could help or how you could you know, redirect it or whatever you want to do so.

Speaker 2: 6:11

But then you start and you're like, oh, the gap between what's in my head and what reality is there's always. It's always like the Grand Canyon. To me it's always the Grand Canyon. I mean very rarely, it's a little tiny, you know ditch, and you're like, oh my God, it's actually easy and flowing. But actually you're, the Grand Canyon is coming. It just means you haven't gotten there yet and uh. So I think a lot of people quit because they land in the Grand Canyon and they think well, that means I'm not creative, that means I'm not a writer, that means I'm not good. Uh, and the and the, you know the, the doubt can come in I'm a fake. All that stuff starts to arrive, which, you know, might be driven by anxiety We'll see but then it's to me.

Speaker 2: 6:55

It's working at Pixar, you see the greats fall into that Grand Canyon, and that is so illuminating because you realize, oh, it's not me, it's the process and the only difference. Yes, they're incredibly talented, but it's not me, it's the process and the only difference. Yes, they're incredibly talented, but, honestly, they keep going. They scale the canyon, they find another one, they scale it, and each time they're getting closer and closer to something that that original dream is not manifesting.

Speaker 2: 7:22

No, of course not, because it's better. It's its own thing. It's this thing that's being evolved and created through all of those journeys and all the people that you've found on the way. So I try to remember that when I fall into the canyon, that it's part of the process and that the dream was just the spark in order to get you to the actual story, to get that you don't know yet. You can't know it because you haven't lived it yet. It's actually a process of living and creating is so alive. It's a completely changing, iterating thing. It doesn't mean when I fall in the canyon, I'm still not depressed for a day, but that's also part of the process.

Speaker 1: 8:08

It's so interesting because there's a distinction here. It's a distinction and it's an alchemy. But when you're talking about the dream or whatever, you guys are really talking about the art. You're talking about the story that you want to tell, and it's so interesting because someone else might be answering well, the dream was to become the screenwriter and the dream was to be in Hollywood. You're not talking about your personal dream, you're talking. You're so in service of the story that you want to tell. That's, that's brilliant. I want to honor you for that, first of all. But go ahead, dave.

Speaker 3: 8:36

Appreciate that. No, I mean Jim. Jim Carrey says something really interesting about how I wish everybody could just become rich and famous. So they see it doesn't solve all their problems. You know, and I think that you know, the dream to be a Hollywood screenwriter, or to work in Hollywood in general, is just the dream to have homework every day until you die. You know. I mean like that's basically, you know, with higher and higher stakes and bigger and bigger challenges. So you have to love the work. You know it has to be about actors loving to rehearse and writers loving the blank page, because that's sort of what you're getting at the end of the road. There's no pot of gold, you know. It's just a constant machine where you're being challenged more and more and more and you have to like that challenge. You know, I think that you have to be able to also. You have to like that challenge. You know, I think that you have to be able to also.

Speaker 3: 9:28

You know, for a lot of writers it's a hobby that becomes a job. You know, and at least for me, you know, growing up like that was a hobby. It was a thing I did after school. You know, and I think that when it becomes your job, you have a different relationship to it and your dream is to be successful at it. But that's an active dream. It's a dream you have to keep, you know, inflating with air, or else it's going to fall to the ground. So it's it's, it's stressful, but it's also like, incredibly fulfilling. You know, and, and, and, like Meg says, like the, the challenge of it's not a you know, it's a science and an art, but it's like you, you're constantly given that Grand Canyon to cross and finding it's a different way every time, every different solution every time to cross the Grand.

Speaker 3: 10:13

Canyon, you know, and there's no one way to do it, or else we wouldn't really have jobs.

Speaker 2: 10:19

You know, it's just a wheel powered by frustration I have found too that when I'm creating out of ego or out of kind of external worries, like, oh, this is what the market needs, or this, this is what these big producers have made in the past, so they're going to expect this and it's not good enough, or whatever, or this is the one that's going to sell for a million dollars, it, it's whatever. I, this is the one. The Academy award, this could be it, right, and they suck, they just don't. They don't really bear fruit for me I'm not saying for someone else that it may, that would be a good driver, but you can't control getting Academy award. As someone who sat in the audience, you can't control it Like, and it's like, it's just. That is to me it'll be a shallow win, um, and for me it's. I.

Speaker 2: 11:09

Always, when I get into that place in my head cause I think we all can Um, I just remember that I'm in service of the characters and that they. It's a sacred, it's a sacred job. I believe the universe, the muses, whatever we want to call them, chose you to tell a story, and every time I hit the wall, or it's too hard, or I think, oh, my God, I cannot write this scene again, or I'm stuck, I can't think of anything. I just try to remember I'm fighting for the character and that I'm there for the character, and then, if you don't do it, they're never going to be known in this play, in this world, like.

Speaker 2: 11:42

So if I'm in service to that, if I'm in service to that, if I'm in service to joy and anxiety and all of those characters, then I find you can tap into deeper storytelling and more fun storytelling, because for me that's the authentic place that it's coming from if you're trying to talk about what it is to be human, even through funny, adorable emotions. So for me it's more. I try to stay there. I don't win all the time. There's plenty of days that my ego gets involved and I spin out, but yeah, it doesn't bear fruit for me to think about. I will be a screenwriter, you are a writer, are you a writer? I say this to emerging writers all the time.

Speaker 3: 12:19

Are you a writer? Then be a writer. You are a writer. Whenever I speak to young writers, I always tell them to do it for the awards. A writer Whenever I speak to young writers, I always tell them to do it for the awards. That's just very important. Your value in life is determined by which awards you've won and which you were nominated for, and there's a point system and you know. That way people feel like they're doing this for the right reasons.

Speaker 2: 12:43

It's so funny, Like, why is it? Because we all know intuitively that doing it for the awards is not good and not good and yet we all we meet so manyome of that and I know people who would say to their grave.

Speaker 3: 13:11

That like awards that affect them. But once you are in that room and they're about to call your name, no matter how much of a long shot you are in that category, you always think there's a chance.

Speaker 3: 13:23

I know you do Well you always lose a chance and you look around that room and it is intoxicating. I remember when I was at the Globes and I walked in front of Jeff Bezos and was suddenly surrounded by every A-list actor. It's bizarre and I understand that some people are, and I know people who are driven by the desire to be in that room because it makes you feel very special. But, um, I don't know, I don't know, that sounds like a treadmill you can't get off of. Um, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Yeah, no, 100%. We can't overlook how vital what you're doing with this particular piece. You're allowing especially young people, right, but everybody. But I've heard so many people come to me and say, oh my God, that movie. My son, who isn't verbal, he's nonverbal, but he saw the movie and it helps him. And it's so vital. And now you're introducing like the next level, so people even can grow up with it, like that's huge, that's, it's a huge responsibility. Does that feel like a weight? How does responsibility play into it for you guys with that?

Speaker 2: 14:31

Well, at the beginning we really tried not to think about this because it will really shut you down creatively. When you think about the responsibility of it, you can think about it more as the wind beneath your wings kind of the mentality that people are in your corner and they want more and those kinds of wonderful things. But for the beginning of it we really thought about it really is centered on the director, kelsey Mann, and what he's coming to and what his sequel were. The idea, which was anxiety and growing up with anxiety as a kid, and so you know the way that creativity, the more specific, the more general you get. We just really stayed keyed into Kelsey and his life experience and how I related to that life experience as a writer and the head of story and we really tried to stay within what was our authentic human experience, because if you think too much about the outside and what it'll mean to the world, it really can put you into a terror state that you're really not creating out of. I don't know, dave, how was it for you?

Speaker 3: 15:33

Always terrifying.

Speaker 3: 15:34

I mean, I think that you hit it on the head when it's like when you try to write outside of the character, outside of clearly, what does the character want, that's your job At the end of the day, like that's your job.

Speaker 3: 15:48

And when you try to write backwards from anything and bigger than that, you get into trouble. But, ironically, the most universal quality of something is to get specific. You know, and I think the more we sort of dialed in on like, on trusting that we're going to create an authentic character journey, that the more that would resonate with people, especially when you're being true to character and your character is anxiety, you're naturally being true to the process of what that experience is. You know, and that's the beautiful alchemy of Inside Out is that your emotions are, they're not named Larry and Joe, they're named joy and sadness and like. So you have to be very true to joy and sadness and so everything about their character has to fit into the psychological, physiological profile of that emotion. And so, ironically, I think that's why it does resonate on that mental health level, because I think that you are applying truths and dramatizing them to emotions in a way that no other property can do, and the fact that it's aimed at a very important age group, all the better.

Speaker 2: 17:00

I think what Inside Out can do very clearly that I hope all stories do is make you feel not alone, that your experience as a human being you're not alone Like that feeling. You know everybody has sadness and instead of rejecting it inside of yourself as weird or over much, why don't you accept her and see what gift she has to offer you? Everybody has anxiety yes, some people are is driving higher and it's it's whipping into something, but I just feel like that, to me, is what I hope all stories do, at least, for what I love about storytelling is that you, you aren't alone and that it's part of the human condition, I think. For grownups.

Speaker 1: 17:38

In many ways it's, it's multifaceted the effect, because not only do we maybe see it in our children and in the world around us, but we too experienced it ourselves right, so it brings us back. I mean it really is the human experience, the whole thing, you know. I mean I laughed out loud when I saw the trailer. When anxiety arrives and literally puts down all the baggage, it goes. Where do put all this?

Speaker 2: 18:03

where do I put my stuff? Got a lot of baggage I mean, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 18:07

So talk to me about how does anxiety show up for you guys?

Speaker 2: 18:14

um when does she not show up is what I want to know. Does it, does she not show up for everybody else? She's always got a finger on the console for me. In what way?

Speaker 1: 18:24

in what way? Because I know, I know you're a fighter. I, I mean, I know enough about you to know that when she shows up, you're aware that who, who she is, and that you deal with her. She can fool me.

Speaker 2: 18:34

I don't know about everybody else, but I can literally kind of wake up to her like oh geez, oh geez, oh geez, this is anxiety. I didn't even realize I was projecting into the future. I didn't even realize it. I was just lost in some anxiety fugue state. I don't know, I was a very anxious child. My father called me Moody Meg. I, just, I was born this way.

Speaker 2: 18:51

The lever was turned on and she arrived, let's just say she arrived at my headquarters early. She, let's say she arrived in my headquarters early. She was anxious to get, get to be part of the program. But it's just, I learned at a very early age to imagine and I don't know if it was my parents who taught me this, I don't remember Just imagine and this is so weird because it's way before this movie just imagine a little chair and ask her to go sit down just for a little while, like try to, and again again, just for a little while, like try to, and again again. I think she's always got her little finger on the console.

Speaker 2: 19:23

But for me, um, uh, it was so interesting for me, in the research of doing the movie, to also think of the ways that anxiety does is, why is she? Why does she exist in our human animal condition? Um, you know. So if you are worried about um forgot the present for the party, that's good Anxiety should remind you about the present for the party. So it is a. It was interesting that way for me.

Speaker 3: 19:48

Too much of anything, though. You know it's, uh, it's, it's everything in moderation. You know, I think, um, you certainly learn writing these films. You know that, uh, everything has a value, you know, just like no characters inherently totally good or totally evil, you know, neither are your emotions and, um, I mean, I think it, I think it's about.

Speaker 3: 20:11

What I learned at least was was it's not about, um, when does anxiety show up? Right, but when does it consume you, you know, and like, when does it take you over, take you over? You know when, when do you feel powerless to it? Because, meg's right, a little anxiety is good. You should have a little neuroses, a little anxiety. You should, you should care about things, and you should. It's it's, it's, it's there to protect you in a lot of ways. But there are times, especially as writers I mean what a practical joke to ask a bunch of screenwriters to talk about anxiety. You know, you're constantly attuned to your anxiety and concerned about what could happen, because that's what writing is. You're always sitting there thinking what's the worst thing that could happen to this character, you know, and so you're trained, I think, to internalize that question a lot Like what's the worst that could happen, you know, and I think, I think that that's why maybe anxiety and screenwriters are in the same word cloud.

Speaker 1: 21:12

You know, when these things show up, no matter what the emotion I mean emotion is just energy, right, it's energy that we've created and it's there for a reason we try to push it away if we don't like it or if we think it's not good for us, and we spend extra energy trying to get rid of it, instead of, as Meg was, sort of her parents were brilliantly saying, just bring it in, let it sit down. They didn't say get rid of it. You know to put it out and lock the door. You know, and I think you know, if you check in with anxiety, for instance, with a curiosity, and say I wonder why it's here, and then it's kind of a bit of a reality check. And you're right, dave. I mean, you do realize that actually at some point it really did protect you from something, from being embarrassed or from being whatever it might be, and sometimes we just need to reprogram it, right, it's got old data right.

Speaker 3: 22:00

It's very smart. I mean, listening to your anxiety is a great exercise. It's easier to do, I think, as you get older, but certainly, or at least when you're more able to control your emotions. I mean, I think a lot of what this movie is about is being at an age where you're sometimes not in control of your emotions and they sort of control you. Yeah, Especially during puberty and just times when there's a lot going on in your head.

Speaker 2: 22:25

Somebody had told me years ago and I thought about it writing this film is that jealousy or envy is really just there to tell you what you want.

Speaker 1: 22:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:35

You know it's a very important thing to not push away as evil or bad or you shouldn't. You're jealous. Why? Because you want something in there, right. Why do you want it? You know it's a very important, you know, telltale sign of something that you could pay attention to and usually in jealousy or envy you see something in yourself, in that person or in that thing.

Speaker 1: 22:58

Yeah, so it's really a potential mirror going, you know, and then you go, oh shit, it could have been me. And then you can totally descend into, well, you know the victim mentality, right, and be like, yeah, but I never get the breaks, or you can fucking write or do whatever it is that or admit you want it.

Speaker 2: 23:14

I think a lot of women can't even admit they want something that's outside of service.

Speaker 1: 23:19

Or admit that you haven't been working for it. I mean, you know, I mean I think it's a great signal. And then you can ask yourself do I really want it?

Speaker 2: 23:28

Do you, and what part of it do you want?

Speaker 1: 23:30

Emotions are data, not directives. The trouble is we have an emotion and then we act on it, especially those lower level things, because it feels dangerous. It feels like you're being threatened. It must be so multi-layered for you when you're writing about it and you're feeling it. How do you put that into the mix? Does that help?

Speaker 3: 23:49

I mean, it always helps to write from a place of panic, absolutely, yeah, panic drove many pages of this film.

Speaker 1: 24:04

How did you guys collaborate together? Talk a little bit about your process. I'm curious, like how would that work?

Speaker 2: 24:08

Well, I was on the film a long time and I honestly was feeling like I had an opportunity to go and work with my husband on a live action movie and I felt like I had serviced the story really as much as I could, so I stepped off. And then when they told me, when I found out that Dave was coming on, it was such a happy day. I knew how amazing he is. So we didn't collaborate directly on this particular project that we have in the past on other things, so I handed the baton.

Speaker 3: 24:39

It was a baton handoff.

Speaker 2: 24:40

Oh cool.

Speaker 3: 24:42

Yeah, I mean these, these movies at Pixar. You know they take years. It's a marathon, you know. And what's great is that when you come in on a project like this, you can look at a lot of work that either isn't on the page, isn't on the screen, you can see deleted scenes, you can see deleted sequences, you can see deleted art, and so it's a much different process than any other movie or TV show that I've come on to work with, because you're just, you're given this well of ideas and then you add your own, you know, and you sort of make this thing.

Speaker 3: 25:16

That has to make sense on a lot of levels. But yeah, no a, the process here is interesting because you're always writing, shooting and editing at the same time. You know, you're always taking stuff that has been stuck to the wall for a long time and that's foundational, and then you're always adjusting things that could be on either side of that moment, you know, and uh, it's like building a house that defies the laws of gravity. Where you're, the third floor is somehow done, but you have to finish the first one. You know like, and it's a lot of having to wrap your head around organizing information and lots of it visual, thematic, and trying to piece together what someone as brilliant as Meg has left you and also what you can sort of create to fill in the gaps.

Speaker 1: 26:03

Yeah, what kind of visuals are you working with Dave, like when you were, or either one of you really like, at what point did that come in? And at least you had the first movie right, so you had a lot of foundation to go from. I'm just so curious to know how much that influences you, or what was in your head.

Speaker 2: 26:25

Well, when you start, when you start your director is an artist so he can draw almost immediately, right. So he's drawing images that he sees, and then you will have a head of story come in, and then you'll have storyboard artists come in and eventually character designers are coming in. So, like Dave said, it's this moving thing that there's so many people. Art is everywhere. As soon as you start, art is everywhere, there's artists throwing ideas.

Speaker 1: 26:44

It's amazing, it's so interesting because you know, when you're writing in general like, there tends to be a visual right in your head, and so do you when you're writing, in particular with this project. Since we're talking about this project, are you visualizing the characters that you know Like or are you visualizing in real life? I'm just like, are you thinking about Riley as a young, young girl, or what do you think about when you're doing that?

Speaker 3: 27:10

By the time it gets to me. What's nice is that we have a lot of the cast, we have a lot of the art, and so it's very easy to to visualize no-transcript this when you're working, but also you can't. Which is the beauty of Pixar is that there's so much that the story artists add to a scene that you can't anticipate, and so it trains you to write in such a way that you are leaving spots open to interpretation and ideas and different visual paths, and that's really fun too. You can get the same scene to three different story artists and get three different, entirely different stories. You know which is so cool?

Speaker 1: 28:13

Yeah, no, absolutely Was one of the characters, one of the new four characters, sort of more difficult to hone than the other, difficult maybe is the wrong word, but more nuanced or more.

Speaker 2: 28:24

Well, there's always emotions that can get repetitive. In the first movie it was disgust for me. She just it was too easy to just make her disgusted. Certainly the actors start helping with that. To be honest with you. They start riffing in the booth and they bring a lot to it. Start riffing in the booth and they bring a lot to it. And for me, on this one, envy was she was tricky because you wanted to still like her and yet she could go pretty dark, pretty quick if you weren't careful and not to help her be repetitive. So for me, envy was the one that was a bit of a. I had to wrap my head around her, dave.

Speaker 3: 28:57

Which one was it for you, I mean, I think when I started, what was nice to hear was and something that I think the actors hear pretty early is that you're playing an emotion. But that emotion isn't just that emotion. That joy can be sad and joy can be angry, you know. So not to box in both the performance of the actor and then how we write the lines, because it can get repetitive if all you're doing is you know there's a, there's a line I like in this new version, where, where anger says I can't always be the rage guy, you know, like I want to buy someone flowers every now and then you know, and like there's something to keeping that in mind that rounds these guys out. Otherwise it can get tricky because they lead with that foot. I mean, they lead with that, with with their sort of core emotion a lot, and that's their personality. But once you let it, let it define them, it can become caricature, you know, and I think I think envy was definitely tough.

Speaker 3: 29:50

Embarrassment was actually surprisingly easier, because embarrassment you have to. I don't want to spoil anything, but there's certainly moments in the film where embarrassment and sadness have a dynamic and that helps you find a new layer to embarrassment, and anxiety certainly has enough real estate to be able to play with. I really love a character like Anouilh which is so rooted in easy one-liners that could be comic relief the whole movie. But, man, I love when you take a sarcastic character and then build them up for one moment of sweetness. You know, and I think, I think, I think sometimes who they are tells you what you need to round them out. You know, and that's always fun to execute too.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Yeah, totally. It sounds like less is more with Ennui right.

Speaker 2: 30:39

The animation is so amazing with all the characters and bringing whole other levels, and especially with Ennui. Like Ennui in the movie, Ennui doesn't even have to say anything and you're already like into it because of just how they've got her drooping. And I just have to give so many props to the designers and the animators and all those levels that are coming in there.

Speaker 1: 31:00

Oh yeah, the body language. I watched something in my research where, where the in the first reveal, you couldn't see what they look like, but you could see their bodies, the silhouettes. That's brilliant, right. It's lovely to see that because it's so important, right. We always think about it like to physicalize the emotion I think is such a great a great way to go, so beautiful, to watch the animators add layers to their dramatic performances you know, because a dramatic performance is subtle, you know, and and there's movement in an eye or there's, and it's that, I mean it's it's.

Speaker 3: 31:32

I'm not going to say it's easier, but it's certainly a different instrument to do the Looney Tunes performances or do broad comedy performances, but watching them animate with such deft and subtly for emotional scenes, um, that that blows my mind. I mean it's really something to watch and something that not a lot of animated movies have, you know, which is why I sort of again like love inside out, because it gets at a, it treats emotion with such um, it puts it on such a pedestal and it really respects all levels of it, including in the just facial performance of it.

Speaker 1: 32:08

Oh yeah, no, absolutely. I was never as a child, I was never a very big animation fan or a cartoon person really at all. And it was as an adult, when I started seeing some of what Pixar did, that I was like, oh man, you know, there's a depth to it which is really visceral, I think. You know, the embarrassment character strikes me as being probably potentially an anchor I mean, I have no idea, I haven't seen it but an anchor to the others. Right, because I think you could pretty much filter all the other emotions through embarrassment. Right, either as what you're trying to avoid in anxiety, or what you're, what you feel, why you're sad, because you were, you know.

Speaker 3: 32:45

I certainly could have at that age yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:47

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 32:49

Embarrassment was a driving force in my teenage years.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Yeah, no for sure For what you didn't do too right. Like for that again, the sort of the, the way they go together, like the fear I could see them all, like getting together in a corner going.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Yeah, we're not going there. Well, at that age you're so sensitive, you know, they're all kind of keyed up so high. I mean, there's a really funny joke in the film about that, which I won't spoil it is nice.

Speaker 3: 33:14

That, like, what's a part of the world is not that you don't have these emotions until you're 13, you know, but that they are just, you know, in a waiting room, you know, and they're not flying the plane, they're not at the main console, and when you get to that age, it does feel like a lot of emotions are fighting for that control, fighting for that main console. You know, and that was always where I went to to relate to it to. It was remembering what it felt like when you weren't in control of your emotions, that they were controlling you and they were all fighting for control, and how that made me feel. That's where I started to try to tap into it.

Speaker 2: 33:55

That makes sense. We even had a scene originally when one of the early screenings of going to the emotions waiting room. So good, yes.

Speaker 1: 34:04

Waiting room. I love it.

Speaker 2: 34:04

Say that there's new emotions. You had to prove when were they, where are they in the parents mind, like you had to have a whole world logic to to that. So some of the early screenings are really trying to lay down that logic. We ended up not needing it and it fell away, but it was fun to go there.

Speaker 1: 34:21

Yeah, and I can imagine probably a lot of choices of which way you could go right and then to hone it down to these ones.

Speaker 2: 34:27

I mean, come on, it's the problem of having too many choices and no choices like at the same time.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Yeah, I guess in the end it's about the story, right, what's going to actually really serve the story? But I can imagine, as you're going through, like all of these millions of emotions, that you could choose you're, you know you could probably be. Oh, I see such potential in what we could do with that, right, but then you're straying away from yeah, but how is that helping Riley, right? How is? How are we telling her story?

Speaker 2: 34:54

Guilt was an emotion that arrived but then fell away, and shame was an emotion that arrived in the doorway and and uh, that's again like you're it's. Does it serve the story or not? No, is it this, this particular story? Right, there's probably tons of stories for riley. You could give the guilt to the parents because they're gonna carry it.

Speaker 3: 35:14

You know, make it really really heavy too believe me, there's there's a lot of versions of this that could exist just for the parents and exactly oh yeah, to uh, to uh, to take our parent minds out of it sometimes, because oh yeah you're so protective, uh over over the 100.

Speaker 1: 35:34

So I'm curious what's the hardest thing either one of you have ever?

Speaker 2: 35:37

done For me it was just the first Inside Out movie was so hard because it all had to be invented out of literally nothing. There was no context to anything. There was. You know, at least, if you're going to pitch, we're going to go and do a movie in the ocean with fish. Well, there's sharks down there and you could start somewhere.

Speaker 2: 35:57

The first Inside Out was nothing Like. Literally, it's just whatever we can come up with. Josh Cooley, who was the head of story and the co-writer on the first movie, used to joke it was like trying to create a movie in an empty apple store and you can never leave and there's no props and you're like, okay, now, of course, when you get to the sequel, you're like who the heck came up with this idea, for this rule? Oh, that was us.

Speaker 3: 36:19

Yeah, right yeah, it's funny. You definitely think in the sequel it's going to be easier in some ways. And it's harder because, in a lot of ways, because you, um, you're locked into rules that have been established and you have to filter a lot of ideas through rules that apply in the mind world, in the real world, making sure everything aligns. It's, it's um, it's a complex needle to thread.

Speaker 1: 36:45

It is. Yeah, no kidding, right, meg. I'm so curious when you had that blank slate, what made it so difficult?

Speaker 2: 36:54

You didn't have to make it all up.

Speaker 1: 36:55

There's no title, no, nothing.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Well, there's no, I just mean the world building, you know?

Speaker 1: 37:00

Oh, I know I understand that, but I'm just curious when you did go into that empty room was there a concept and a title? And then you know, I know I understand that, but I'm just curious when you did go into that empty room, was there?

Speaker 2: 37:06

was there a concept and a title? And then you went oh yeah, no. I came in on the second screening. So Pete had done all his research and picked his five emotions and we knew we were going out in the mind and we had places to go, but there was no story. And and what are the rules in this headquarters? And? And we used to just be like can't, can't he have a coffee cup or something? Can they go to bed? They're never leaving stage.

Speaker 1: 37:27

Yeah, you're creating literally a whole new world. Yeah, that's pretty cool. What about you, dave? What's the hardest thing you've ever had to do? Gosh.

Speaker 3: 37:36

I mean there's a laundry list of that. I mean, I think when I was on Kidding, which was a show that I created for Showtime, there were a lot of challenges in uh just being a first time showrunner and and sort of inheriting uh. You know, I was uh early thirties and suddenly the CEO of a $50 million company. You know which is sort of what being a showrunner is for the first time. Um and having to um be a uh unknown a show with uh a lot of very famous people um and earn their respect. Uh was certainly a very hard, creative thing to have to do Um, but I look back on that uh and with uh um, just a great enjoyment of that time of my life because it was such a great challenge and we did such great work that yeah, no, it was very hard but it could have gone south and instead it went well.

Speaker 1: 38:40

What was it, do you think about you, that allowed you to navigate it? I mean, you might know now in retrospect, right Like when you look back, how were you able to navigate that. I can, I can imagine it would be very hard.

Speaker 3: 38:50

I think I just felt that I couldn't fail you know and there was certainly a lot of anxiety in in that but that, uh, I had, I had worked many years to get to the point where I had this exact opportunity and that you feel like you're on the uh uh, you know, five yard line of something that you uh, that you have to make. You have no choice. No one's going to help you. You have to make this work. You have to take uh uh big personalities and make them all functional. You have to uh deal with uh, uh, you know people that, uh, you might not like working with that. You have to uh uh make like working with it.

Speaker 3: 39:34

It's I don't know, it's a, it's, it's a lot of levels of um, but making a, making the show go on, um, that uh, yeah, are super challenging. And then you do it and suddenly the pistons start to move and everyone starts to have a good time and it becomes this very creative sandbox and everyone's having a great time. So it's yeah, no, that was a very challenging but rewarding part.

Speaker 1: 39:59

It's interesting because if you were, let me ask you this way if you were writing this character of you, what character attribute would you call that that was able to navigate that right Like? You explained to me that I had to do this and I had to do that, but talk to me about, like, the traits inherent in you.

Speaker 3: 40:21

I think I had to become a well of my own confidence, you know, because nobody was going to help me. You know, I was at the point where I had hopefully learned enough from enough movie stars in it and not ask permission and be the guy in charge, because I was the guy in charge.

Speaker 1: 40:50

But how did you do that? I know I'm pushing you a little bit, no, no, that's okay.

Speaker 3: 40:54

I'm trying to find the right words.

Speaker 1: 40:56

Because it's incredible that you did that, and it's true you overcame all of that. But what was it about you? How did you do that? Was it courage, was it balls, was it?

Speaker 3: 41:06

fear. I mean it was a mixture of anything. It's always, always a mixture of courage and stupidity. I mean, I think that I, I, I, I knew I grew life with a problem that I didn't think I could solve and I solved it through theater, through doing Shakespeare and learning how to use my voice and to find it. Shakespeare, and learning how to use my voice and to to find it. Um, and I, I, sort of privately in that moment I've never actually said this out loud, but it was I. I never in that moment, I never wanted to let anybody else take my confidence away and I think in those challenging moments, for the first time since I was a kid, did I feel like someone was trying, or not someone, but a thing was trying to do that or a thing was challenging that, and I just couldn't become that kid anymore, with the stutter, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 1: 42:16

Yeah, thank you for sharing that Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 42:18

It makes sense.

Speaker 1: 42:19

Yeah, you know confidence is a result too right. It's not like a thing that can be taken away. So you gained confidence. I love that that helped you, but it literally is a result. Do?

Speaker 3: 42:33

you hear that? Do you hear that it's a result of what you did? Yeah, I do, I totally do.

Speaker 1: 42:35

Yeah, it's amazing, truly an amazing. Thank you for sharing that. What's the easiest thing you guys have ever done. What's the easiest decision you ever had to make? What's the easiest thing you guys have ever done.

Speaker 3: 42:45

What's the easiest decision you? Ever had to make Proposing to my wife Nice. That was probably the easiest decision.

Speaker 2: 42:51

The easiest decision I ever made was challenging for us to get pregnant, and so I was like, well, we're just going to do it. We're going to do everything that it takes. There was just no question that I wanted to have my kids. Oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 43:04

I love that, so I guess I'll need to ask you each what is your definition of living in the moment.

Speaker 3: 43:10

I think, when you take away all of the distractions of why we do what we do, I think it's about living for yourself, why we do what we do. I think it's about living for yourself in a way that isn't looking forwards or backwards, and that you are able to erase ambition from the equation. I'm trying to find a nice way to put this. You know that, like you're, there's a purity to it I'm trying to define. You know that, like you're living in the moment. We had a sequence in the movie that sort of talked about this too. That was just about having to frankly bury your anxiety and embrace your joy, you know, and that anxiety is about thinking about the future, planning for the future, and that if you can silence that voice, you can live in the moment. So to bring this full circle, you know, I think that perhaps living in the moment is letting joy drive and anxiety take that seat.

Speaker 2: 44:17

Yeah, that was going to be. What I would say is that, you know, joy is in the moment. She's just very, very present and experiencing the joy of the present. It doesn't mean something joyful is happening, right, but there is beauty everywhere. For me it is getting anxiety a little bit off the control, so that I can come and be present, let joy drive.

Speaker 1: 44:39

Yeah, it's interesting because we do. We have a bias to negative things. As humans, I mean, we're wired to have a bias for safety, right. So we are always noticing the more negative things, and the negative things are always there if you look for them, but so are the joyful things always there, right literally, recognizing that.

Speaker 2: 45:05

Not that, no, everything's great and rosy and sunny, but rather let's look for what you know, let's be open to what, what exists now, that and you know and and focus on the survival instinct is really this the survival engine is so wired to our physical survival yep, you know, to the to being, to literally be able to live.

Speaker 2: 45:19

So it's always looking for ways that you could die like oh 100 at this point know, kind of emotional because about what you were taught as a kid or whatever, but you know, as an adult you start to understand that the joy is also needed for like a bigger kind of living. You know it's not just about surviving, it's about living.

Speaker 1: 45:37

And that's what we need, our joy for, nicely put, absolutely. Hey, how do you want to be remembered?

Speaker 3: 45:44

Nicely put, absolutely. Hey, how do you want to be remembered? It's assuming that I do. I don't know someone who had their priorities right. You know, I feel like, at the end of the day, I love my family and if, if I had nothing else but them, that would be fine. You know, and, uh, and, and I think I think I'm okay. If I'm just remembered for being a good dad, I'll be all right.

Speaker 1: 46:13

Nice, Beautiful. How about you Meg?

Speaker 2: 46:17

I want to be remembered as a kind person who gave uh for others. You know, honestly, I know that sounds so schmaltzy, but it is what I try to do create community and give back and connect connection. That's really seems to keep being the centering of what I do and the choices that I make, Be that in a story, which is a way to create community and connection, or the podcast, or teaching or stories, or my kids, is the most sacred centering connection and kindness and community that we need to build as a center for sure.

Speaker 3: 46:56

I want to be remembered as the guy who lost the Oscar for inside out too.

Speaker 1: 47:00

There you go. Yeah, that's a good idea. Nice, great idea. Then you can. I think you should go to the Oscars as feeling like a loser. I think that's a great idea.

Speaker 3: 47:10

Great Done.

Speaker 1: 47:12

And then, when you do get it, I think you shouldn't go up. You should be in the bathroom.

Speaker 3: 47:18

Lower your expectations, you'll always be happy.

Speaker 1: 47:21

Absolutely See. If you can finish this, this will be fun for you.

Speaker 2: 47:32

We'll do Meg first. Most people think that Meg is, but the truth is Well, I just had to rewrite my bio because they were like this is too straight. Write something funny, write something that'll grab people. And I was like, oh gosh. So this is the first sign of my bio. You know, meg LaFauve may seem like a calm, cool, collected, professional screenwriter but in fact she's having an anxiety spin out at all times. So I don't think people actually understand how much anxiety and worry I was a worry wart. My grandfather used to say you're going to have gray hair by the time you're 10, because I would just worry, worry, worry, worry. But now, instead of I try to embrace that part of me. So I think people understand. People think I'm just so calm and cool and I'm not. People who know me well they all know that I'm an overthinker, but I would say that's what it is.

Speaker 3: 48:29

I love it what about you, Dave.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Most people think Dave Holstein is, but the truth is Most people think I'm just so wealthy and attractive, but the truth is I'm humble.

Speaker 3: 48:35

Most people think you're avoidant, but others just think you're funny. I don't even know. I honestly don't know how to answer that one. I thought about it while Meg was answering and I couldn't quite even get to a thing.

Speaker 2: 48:44

I liked.

Speaker 3: 48:45

I don't even know what most people think about me.

Speaker 1: 48:47

I couldn't even answer, that's cool, that's fair, that's perfectly fair. All right, so I'm going to say what makes you and you're going to say the first thing that comes to your mind. So I'm going to say, and do you want to go, meg, and then Dave, or do you want to? Yeah, let's do that. So I'm going to say, meg, what makes you hungry?

Speaker 2: 49:04

Cookies. No, I'm sure you mean philosophically what makes me hungry Stories, storytelling characters that arrive on my doorstep and want their stories to be told.

Speaker 3: 49:18

I was also going to pizza because it is lunchtime and I was like, yeah, I know pizza. Why isn't anyone just saying pizza People do? Um, no, no, I mean, I think I think what makes me hungry is when I you're walking along, you're in the shower, you're driving your car and like, like you get a nugget of something that's like, oh, that's cool, I want to chase that, you know that's, that's always fun.

Speaker 2: 49:47

Yeah, what makes you sad? Unness, meanness, uh, selfishness, self-absorption of others, that that hurt other people, which is just fear. I do know that it's. It's, it's a kind of fear inside of people that can make them make choices that really deeply hurt other people.

Speaker 1: 49:59

Yeah, but it can still make you sad. I mean, that's valid. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 50:02

Just because you understand including the fearful, yeah, yeah, it makes me sad for the. I mean, that's valid. You know what I mean, just because you understand. Including the fearful, yeah, yeah, it makes me sad for the fearful person too, that you had to go that far to protect yourself.

Speaker 1: 50:10

Yeah, what makes you sad, dave?

Speaker 3: 50:12

Oh, rampant inequality, People who don't appreciate how lucky they are. You know that makes me sad.

Speaker 1: 50:20

What scares you Meg?

Speaker 2: 50:26

Everything scares me. This is part of my. This is part of my childhood. I was a scaredy cat kid man. Everything I can make. My imagination is so tuned in to what can scare me that I literally could be anywhere and be worried about something. So I, I, uh, that's everything. I have to be honest everything what scares you, dave.

Speaker 3: 50:43

What scares me is my son's YouTube addiction. Oh that, uh, that freaks me out.

Speaker 1: 50:49

Fair. Well, listen, I'm going to, since you need to go. I'm going to thank you so much, meg. Maybe we'll stay on for a minute minute more, but uh, dave, thanks so much and wishing you all the best for that failure at the Oscars and uh's been, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much, it's great to meet you.

Speaker 3: 51:04

It was great to be here. Thanks so much, Lisa.

Speaker 1: 51:11

Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure. So, meg, it's been three years since we've talked right, so what? What has changed for you in that time that you can, that you can sort of speak to? Is there anything that sort of stands out as what feels different inside?

Speaker 2: 51:21

A big different thing for me is that I'm writing with my husband. Now We've become a writing team and so we tried that early on in our marriage and it wasn't a good idea. But now that we're deeply in the marriage and have matured it's really been really fun and really fruitful. And we do the same things well and yet we do different things well, so it's a great pairing. We do the same things well and yet we do different things well, so it's a great pairing. And I just really really like having somebody of his intense creativity and smarts down in the foxhole with me, like we talk about going into that canyon.

Speaker 2: 51:55

I really like having someone in the canyon with you to be just to figure out, just, yes, to figure out the way through, but also to say, yes, we're in a canyon, yes, you know, just, is this happening? You know, there's so much of creativity that you can get lost, and I really like having somebody with such talent with me in that hair. With someone you kind of get pushed right to do things that you wouldn't have thought you could do, or take on different kinds of projects. So that's been really really very different and very, very rewarding for me.

Speaker 1: 52:32

What's one thing you're looking forward to, both today and then long term?

Speaker 2: 52:37

Well, I mean, come on, here comes Inside Out too. So, as much as my anxiety is driving like a madwoman projecting, I'm so looking forward to it. My kids and I went out around just around my neighborhood because I live in LA, so there's billboards everywhere and bus posters and we we went into pictures of me with all of them and you know that's a perk, so it's really, really fun to look. I'm looking forward to the world receiving it. However they receive it, I do know that a lot of people will appreciate it and feel seen, so I think that I'm really looking forward to that. Your kids must be so proud of you. They are. They are very proud of me, I will be admitted they are.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Right? I mean, yeah, it must be, because it's again like I said, it's something that all ages can relate to. Everybody's excited about it coming out.

Speaker 2: 53:22

I mean it's pretty cool. It is. I mean it's funny because my son was just saying to this morning you know, I was like I think he was nine or 10 when the first movie came out and now he's 20. So he's having a very different experience in the first movie Though I will tell you, in the first movie the first movie you know basically were parents, you want me to be happy, but I'm not, and we're in a screening of it and my kid leans over and goes well, I know what she's talking about. So you know I'm very much looking forward to what he relates to in the next movie that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 53:56

Have they seen any of it? No, no, no one's allowed. Oh my god, that must be so excited. What are you guys getting a sneak peek before? Before the it's 14th, it opens yeah, there'll be a premiere.

Speaker 2: 54:07

There'll be a premiere, so I hope I get to take them. We'll see yeah I hope so. I haven't gotten the tickets in the mail yet. But uh, either way, we'll all go see it and have a blast and uh, yeah, so uh well, congratulations and thanks so much for taking the time.

Speaker 1: 54:21

It's so great to reconnect. Let's continue to stay connected and I'll follow you and see what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 54:26

Maybe I'll have you and your husband on next? Yeah, that would be fun. That would be a whole different conversation. Oh, we should do that. I'm down.

Speaker 1: 54:36

All right, have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 2: 54:38

Thanks so much All right.

Speaker 1: 54:40

Talk soon. Bye. I've been speaking today with Meg LaFave and Dave Holstein. I'm Lisa Hopkins. Stay safe and healthy, everyone, and remember to live in the moment. In music, stop time is that beautiful moment where the band is suspended in rhythmic unison, supporting the soloist to express their individuality In the moment. I encourage you to take that time and create your own rhythm. Until next time, I'm Lisa Hopkins. Thanks for listening.