#46 My Life in Books - Chris Bookish Cauldron

Welcome to the 46th episode of The Bookcast Club, a book podcast for people who love to read and talk books. Today, it's the next installment of My Life in Books, a series where we chat to a friend and fellow reader about the books that have meant the most to them. We are very excited to have Youtuber and friend of the podcast Chris joining us today. Sarah K chats to Chris about his favourite books. 

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Books mentioned:

• The Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson
• A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara
• Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket (for "a book that reminds you of your childhood)
• Wicked by Gregory Maguire (for "a book you have revisited multiple times")
• Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister by Gregory Maguire
• Mirror Mirror by Gregory Maguire
• Son of a Witch by Gregory Maguire
• A Lion Among Men by Gregory Maguire
• The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters (for "a book that surprised you") 
• Fingermsith by Sarah Waters
• Tipping the Velvet by Sarah Waters
• The Paying Guests by Sarah Waters
• Affinity by Sarah Waters
• Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb (for "book that most represents you as a reader")
• Self-Portrait with Boy by Rachel Lyon (for "book that you think is underrated")
• The Magician's Assistant by Ann Patchett. 
• The Dutch House by Ann Patchett.
• A Spool of Blue Thread by Anne Tyler 
• Redhead by the Side of the Road by AnneTyler 

We encourage you to shop with your local independent book store. Many have gone to great efforts to develop an online presence and we're sure most, if not all, will take orders over the phone. They can order whatever book you want. You can find a list of independent bookshops to support on our website, many of which do home delivery.

Other mentions:
Mercedes' Youtube channel (MercysBookishMusings)
Elena Reads Books on Youtube 

Where to find us:
Instagram | Twitter | Website

Transcript

File:                       46 mlib chris draft.mp3

Duration:             56:52

Date:                     07/05/21

[START AUDIO]

00:00:16 Sarah K

Hello and welcome to the Broadcast Club, a fortnightly podcast by 4 bookish buddies. Today it's just me, Sarah and we have the next installment of our My Life in book series. 

In My Life In Books,  we interview a friend and fellow reader about the books that have meant the most to them and how they think about reading and how it impacts their lives.

Today I'm talking to Chris from the YouTube channel Chris Bookish Cauldron.

Hi, Chris.

00:00:37 Chris

Hello.

00:00:39 Sarah K

Would you like to tell us a little bit about your channel and like what you do in the book Internet world?

00:00:44 Chris

Yeah, so I have had a book tube channel now for about the past four years. It'll be four years in July and I've always considered it kind of like a book diary. I feel like some people have a much more like purposeful intentions with what they're doing with their channels.

I've always been kind of the opinion of like this is just what I read, these are my opinions on it and just kind of sharing so I've been doing that for the past four years.

I read a mixture of literary fiction and genre fiction. I love historical fiction.

I read a lot of fantasy. I feel like my fantasy reading over the years has really picked up quite a bit in comparison to my literary fiction, but especially when I first started the channel, it was a lot more of literary fiction. The balance has definitely shifted over the past four years.

I absolutely love having a Booktube channel, you get to meet some of the most amazing people, have some of the best conversations.

It's just an amazing community that I've loved being a part of.

00:01:36 Sarah K

You seem to kind of, increased your activity over the last like year or so. I've been watching you for a couple of years. 

I think I found your channel… It was suggested to me when you put out a video, you probably already know the video I'm talking about. There's a particular video on you channel… do you know what I mean?

00:01:51 Chris

I don't!

00:01:51 Sarah K

The Mistborn video!

00:01:53 Chris

Oh, really, that's such - that video has some of the most views of any video on my channel, and it's so not typical for the types of videos that I produce. It's so not typical in terms of production, it was very early on in my channel. I think that I had only had a channel at that point for like 5 or 6 months, and it's a really ranty, negative video about MISTBORN, by Brandon Sanderson.

And that's the video that so many people know me by because it just got too many views and I still to this day, like the comment section on it is ridiculous and sometimes I wish I had never made it. [laughs]

00:02:27 Sarah K

People who like that series are really into that series, like they really hate it. It's not a very good series, I completely agree with you. Actually, at the time when I watched it, I was like this guy is foolish, this book is amazing 'cause I read it like five years ago.

And then I actually reread it last year and I was like this is terrible.

00:02:47 Chris

[laughs] Well, it's just that it had been hyped up so much and I was just like what is everyone seeing in this? It's awful.

00:02:54 Sarah K

Yeah, it's bad. It's bad bad bad.

00:02:56 Chris

So you came to me from a very negative experience. You really had  to go through that one. [laughs]

00:03:00 Sarah K

Yeah, but that's really my, that's really my style, so I was very attracted to that immediately. [laughs]

00:03:05 Chris

Well, I actually came to Booktube from like a similar thing in that the way I found Booktube – I had read A LITTLE LIFE by Hanya Yanagihara and I read it like way before I had ever even heard of like the book internet or like the book community.

I was just trying to get back into reading after University 'cause I had not read hardly anything at that time. And so I picked up, read it, like freaking loved it.

I remember at the time I was reading passages out loud to my roommate and stuff like that, I was just completely obsessed with it and when I got done with that book, I really wanted to know like what people were saying about it, like what were readers, What was their reaction to it?

'cause it's a book you can't read without having like some kind of an opinion about it. You know, like really invites a reaction. And so I just Googled like ‘A LITTLE LIFE Review’ and all the things that came up were like Washington Post, New York Times and I was like I don't care what these critics have to say like I want to know like average people are saying about this thing and so I clicked on the Videos tab and it was the first video that came up was Mercedes giving it a big thumbs down [laugher]

And I was like I watched the video and I was like I completely disagree with everything she's saying like but I like the fact that she put out the review and that's how I found Booktube.

00:04:08 Sarah K

Oh nice, I think I know the video talking about actually I'll – 

00:04:11 Chris

I think she's deleted it.

00:04:12 Sarah K

OK, well I'll link her channel anyway with another negative review. [laughter]

00:04:18 Chris

Well, yeah, I mean I think that sometimes people are a little bit down on negative reviews and stuff like that, but I think they're helpful and I enjoy watching them fit.

Maybe 'cause I'm a little bit salty, but I actually think that they're helpful and they give you such an insight into people tastes and stuff like that.

00:04:30 Sarah K

Yeah, I like them. I don't think it's intrinsically negative. Like if someone says oh I didn't like this book because, you know the characters weren't likable and there was no real resolution to the plot.

I'm like, oh, great, I'll add it to my TBR, it sounds fantastic.

00:04:42 Chris

Exactly oftentimes I hear people say oh, this book was so slow-paced, blah blah blah, I'm like count me in, I'm ready for it.

00:04:52 Sarah K

So before you started your channel like so at the moment, obviously you read quite a bit like what was happening before your channel, were you a big reader? Have you always been a reader, how does that [work]?

00:05:01 Chris

I was always a casual reader, you know, it was probably somebody who read you know, maybe 15-20 books a year and I've read a lot of murder mysteries. I did not read a lot of literary fiction until I found Booktube. And you know, my worldview and like what fiction was and what it could accomplish and all that just kind of exploded. And what people were reading.

And so I read a lot of murder mysteries up into that point. It was kind of like my main genre, and when I went to University, I wasn't reading at all, you know. I mean, I think that there's this almost like guilt that you have with your free time when you're in college where it's like if you're spending time reading for leisure, you know you should be reading your biochemistry textbook, and so that always like kind of plagued me. When I graduated University, I moved to Indianapolis and I was within walking distance of two bookstores, which was very dangerous for my entry level salary. [laughter]

And that was where I found the book A LITTLE LIFE because it was on a display that said like 10 books to read before you die, and then that just kind of exploded.

But before that, I really I really read a lot of crime fiction and stuff like that, I was not much of a literary reader.

00:06:00 Sarah K

So when was this in relation to when you started your channel?

00:06:05 Chris

I watched Booktube for about a year before I started my own channel.

00:06:10 Sarah K

Oh OK, so that's pretty quick, I think most people sort of hang around for longer.

00:06:15 Chris

Yeah, what convinced me was I was watching a I think it was a live stream with Elena Reads Books and she was talking about like if you love the community and you like wanna take your participation to the next level, it's just like the best thing to do and like don't have any fears about it, and like literally the next month, I was like alright doing it.

00:06:34 Sarah K

Yeah, I’ll put her channel in the shownotes as well, she's really good. Interesting.

00:06:38 Chris

I definitely think if you have any like fear about or anything like that, like the benefit is so much worth the risk for in terms of like the time, everything like that, it's still worth it I think personally I mean obviously I've been doing it for years, I wouldn’t be doing it if I didn’t think it was worth my time.

00:06:53 Sarah K

Well, you’re currently doing at time of recording, I think it will be finished by the time this comes out, but you're putting up a video every day in April, right?

00:07:00 Chris

Yeah. [laughs]

00:07:01 Sarah K

So there's loads of those with Chris out there.

00:07:03 Chris

There's lots of content coming right now.

00:07:06 Sarah K

So I gave you a list of prompts when I first asked you to do this episode with me, and you've picked a couple of those and we'll chat about the books and we will list of course, the questions that Chris is answering and the books in the show notes.

What's your first prompt and what’s your first answer, please?

00:07:20 Chris

The first prompt was a book that kind of defined my childhood, or that made me think of my childhood. 

I loved all sorts of different book when I was a kid. I read pretty much everything I could get my hands on. My dad was very much of the opinion that his children would be readers. He took us to the library every week and the one author who held my childhood in his hands more than any others was Lemony Snicket AKA Daniel Handler, and the SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS.

I was obsessed with those books. I found them when I was about 7 or 8, so it must have been 2002, 2003. I read them all multiple times. I mean for several years it was pretty much the only thing I was reading and I haven't reread them as an adult, largely because I kind of want to keep them as that kind of special magical experience like I don't want to apply an adult lens to it, you know.

And especially I think that those books are actually quite funny when you read them as an adult, but for me they were horrifying as a kid, you know, I really took these films very seriously.

I was very afraid of Count Olaf and you know what he was doing to these children and stuff like that.

And I remember when the movie came out and they had cast Jim Carrey, I was like that's such a no Jim Carrey is funny, you know, Count Olaf is not funny and I'm sure if I read these books now I would see where that humor was coming in but I almost don't want to, yeah.

00:08:40 Sarah K

I thought he was terrifying as well, especially the way he in the earlier books when he has sort of custody of the children and he sort of has them in his house and they don't really have any power to leave. I thought it was really scary.

00:08:51 Chris

I was horrified by him. I was horrified that he's described as being very dirty and unclean and smelly.

And the idea of somebody with like a tattoo of an eye on their ankle, like everything about him, just reeked of evil. And I think that those books they really take their child audience seriously, you know what I mean? Like they present some pretty rough themes to the kids and really accessible ways, you know I mean, and they also they present so many puzzles that you can become like obsessed with.

Especially I had a very obsessive personality as a kid, I think a lot of people who are readers do and to you know there were so many different rabbit holes to fall down with those books.

You know what is what is VFD, what are all these secrets that the parents are hiding all that different stuff?

00:09:36 Sarah K

Yeah, I reread them actually – well, a couple of them so I read them all as well when I was about the same age and I reread, I started to reread a couple a few years ago and they're like newly horrifying because it as an adult you're reading it like what is happening with social services?

[laughter]

00:09:54 Chris

And Mr Poe is supposed to be their Guardian and is like the worst human being ever like, how is somebody so inept put in the charge of three orphans?

[laughter]

00:10:01 Sarah K

From a CPS point of view a fresh wave of horror came up for me, so I think I only reread the first one, THE BAD BEGINNING and then I was like no, these are definitely -  should stay in the world of children.

00:10:14 Chris

Yeah, and I think that you know as kids you just kind of you have so much less of a barrier between like yourself and doubt. You know what I mean? And so you just take everything at face value and those things are still horrifying.

I have thought about rereading them on audio because I know that Tim Curry does the audio books and his narration is just brilliant.

00:10:33 Sarah K

Have you seen any of the adaptations?

00:10:35 Chris

I saw the movie when I was a kid and then I saw that they did the Netflix adaptation with Neil Patrick Harris playing Count Olaf and I've not seen that one yet. I've kind of resisted.

I don't know. I mean, I played the video games as a kid, so I don't know if that counts as an adaptation, but I did like the video games as a child, but no, I'm not seeing the newest one.

00:10:56 Sarah K

Yeah, I haven’t seen it either. I was a little bit surprised by the casting, Neil Patrick Harris? I also saw the Jim Carrey adaptation really didn't like it either, I thought the casting for Olaf was all wrong.

00:11:05 Chris

All wrong! They're just presenting him as almost this charismatically funny character, and he's just not to me, he's slimy, he's greasy, he's horrifying, I, I mean, at least in my childhood mind.

I mean like I said, if I read these as a kid, maybe I would as an adult I would maybe find this humor that some of these casters are finding.

00:11:26 Sarah K

Yeah, I don't know. I certainly didn't see any, but maybe I have no sense of humor. 

00:11:31 Chris

[laughs] Yeah, but those books, definitely. I mean, we didn't own a lot of books as a kid. I had three older siblings so we didn't have a ton of money, but that was like the one series that was like an exception was made. So like every year it was always a big deal, like when a new book could come out, we would make a trip to the bookstore and pass it around between all the kids.

Yeah, so definitely very special spot in my heart, those ones.

00:11:53 Sarah K

What's your next prompt?

00:11:55 Chris

The next prompt is a book that I have revisited multiple times throughout my life and that has to be WICKED: THE LIFE AND TIMES OF THE WICKED WITCH OF THE WEST by Gregory Maguire. I've probably reread that book more than any other book I've ever read and I just reread it last year and I was really worried 'cause I hadn't reread it since I think my freshman year of college and I was like is this going to hold up?

You know, I've read a lot more books since then, is this really going to be of as high of quality as I remember? And  it was even more spectacular reading it now.

So have you read this one?

00:12:34 Sarah K

No! So this is the book upon which the musical Wicked is based?  I haven't even seen the musical.

00:12:41 Chris

I think a lot of people have a very different idea of what that book is going to be because of the musical.

So the musical - I haven't seen the musical myself because I like watched, maybe the introduction to the musical and it was such a different tone to the book that I was just not interested. I was like, no like this is completely wrong, and I'm not going to watch this, but from what I've gathered, based on like what people have shown up at the musical is at the musical really presents itself is quite campy and rompy.

And it really portrays - so I mean, I’m sure that the listeners know that WICKED is about the Wicked Witch of the West and telling her life story. 

00:13:17 Sarah K

So this is from the Wizard of Oz, if you're really under some kind of huge rock. 

00:13:22 Chris

[laughs] And so the music like this really presents this as kind of Elphaba, which is the name that Gregoyr Maguire gives to the Wicked Witch of the West based off the initials of the author of the Wizard of Oz, L. Frank Baum as being quite this heroin, you know, is this misunderstood tragic hero. And that's not how the book is. It always kind of bothers me when people are like oh, you know you don't get her side of the story. She's actually really good. 

It's like no, she's wicked, that's why the book's called Wicked like read the book! She's a horrible person, and that book is so well written like on a sentence by sentence level. Probably more than any other book I've ever read is one of the few books where I have to like keep a dictionary next to me while I'm reading, and I don't mind 'cause the words themselves are just so melodic and it's very slow.

It really is the story of of her life, from the time she's born all the way to her death.

And it is just a phenomenal book. It's very philosophical and dark and twisted. And as I've revisited it throughout my life, you know, I think when I was younger, I discovered the book when I was about 13-14, I found it really shocking. There's some things that happen in that book that I was just, you know, completely shocked by and really kind of shook my like teen sensibilities and then, as you know, revisit it as an adult, it's a really sympathetic portrayal of somebody who is awful and that you relate with, even though you know you shouldn't be at a lot of times.

00:14:55 Sarah K

So is it the story of the Wizard of Oz, but from her perspective? Or does it go like outside of the story?

00:15:01 Chris

It has some differences. So for example, you know there's some differences between the film adaptation of the Wizard of Oz and the Book of the Wizard of Oz. For example like the ruby slippers and the book, in the movie, it's made a big deal that they're ruby slippers, and in fact in the book they're not ruby at all, I think they're silver or something, and in WICKED it is ruby slippers, so he's kind of retelling almost the combined mythos of the Wizard of Oz. Because there are book details from the Wizard of Oz and the lore of Oz that are in WICKED and then there are like movie details or like kind of pop cultural ideas surrounding the Wicked Witch of the West that are put into WICKED as well.

It's quite a horrifying book actually, in a lot of parts I mean the book is one of the most twisted I've ever read in terms of what these characters do to each other.

There's almost a certain nastiness to all of the conversations that these characters have with each other that I think put some readers off, but I think it's captured so well, like the writing style is truly unbelievable.

00:16:06 Sarah K

Well, God, I didn't even know this was a book, I don't think.

I'm very interested, I think I'm gonna have to read this.

00:16:11 Chris

He's done a lot of these books where he kind of retells different fairy tales. I think he's done Alice in Wonderland, he's done Cinderella with CONFESSIONS OF AN UGLY STEP SISTER, which I read, but I don't remember much of he did MIRROR MIRROR for Snow White, but WICKED is kind of his, his main one, and in fact, it grew to be a larger series, so there's actually, I think 4 books total in the series.

You could definitely read Wicked as a standalone, and in fact I recommend it because I don't think the following novels are anywhere near as strong.

00:16:40 Sarah K

So these go beyond the story of the Wizard of Oz? 

00:16:43 Chris

Yeah, and so those go on.

So like minor spoilers in WICKED - Elpheba ends up having a son and so SON OF A WITCH, which is the 2nd book goes on to follow his life. And then there's the third book which is called A LION AMONG MEN tells the tale of the Cowardly Lion and then the 4th book, I can't remember what character that follows, but it follows some other side character as you go through.

It's chronological, so you if you do want to read the series, you would need to read them in order, but I would recommend just reading WICKED as a standalone.

It wraps up perfectly, you don't need, I don't think, any follow-on.

00:17:20 Sarah K

Interesting, interesting so you read this when you were 13 or 14? But it's an adult book.

00:17:28 Chris

Yeah, I didn't have a whole lot of restrictions. It's like what I picked up to read as a kid. I know some people, their parents probably wouldn't have loved them reading with and in fact, I remember I gave it to kids my age after I got done reading. I was like, oh, this is so good. You got to read it and their parents were very mad at me because especially if you read the book there, if you have read the book, there's a scene that takes place in the Philosophy Club which I won't spoil. But I'm sure you know the fellow 12, 13, 14 year olds I was giving it to, their parents were not thrilled when their children got to the philosophy club scene.

00:17:55 Sarah K

You were the kid other parents were having meetings about like this kid is a bad influence.

00:17:59 Chris

Yeah. [laughs]

But like I said, I just don't have hardly any restrictions on what I read as a kid, so which I kind of, I personally think it's a fairly good attitude to have.

I mean, obviously there's some subjects that you might want to control when your child is ready for them, but I think in general kids a lot of times if you don't understand something in a book as a child is just going to watch over you anyway and you'll take from it what you take from it. 

00:18:22 Sarah K

Yeah, definitely. I agree, no, I didn't have any restrictions either. I think it also made me like less interested probably in the books that my parents might not have been thrilled about me reading than if they'd said like don't read those books.

00:18:31 Chris

Yeah! 

00:18:34 Sarah K

I probably would have, like you know, snuck them in.

00:18:37 Chris

Exactly exactly.

Yeah, but that book I mean and I reread it so many times and it's a book that it's very full of, like kind of worldbuilding details and different stuff going on like in the politics of the world. It's very allegorical, borrows a lot of imagery from like Nazi Germany.

And as I reread it over, like different points in my life and like kind of understood more about different stuff going on historically and stuff it was really cool to like, oh like, this is clearly what he's referencing when he made this decision and stuff like that.

So I think like rereading it multiple times in your life like you just get something so different out of it every single time. 

00:19:11 Sarah K

Those are the books that are the best, right? The ones that kind of grow with you.

00:19:14 Chris

Yeah, exactly.

The next book is the book that surprised me, and I'm pretty sure this is a book that has at least been talked about on your podcast before. That is THE LITTLE STRANGER by Sarah Waters.

Have you read this one?

00:19:28 Sarah K

[uncertain] I have… - wait, you do the synopsis then I’ll tell you if I’ve read it. [laughs]

00:19:36 Chris

Ok. [laughs] This is set in 1940. And it is told from the perspective of a Dr Faraday, who is called to a house called Hundreds Hall, which is this crumbling, formerly aristocratic mansion.

There's only three surviving members of this very wealthy family, and he's called because one of the maids is having some sort of stomach ache or something like that. It turns out that she's faking it, but while he's there visiting the family, he notices that the son of this family, whose name is Rodrick, has a really bad limp and he decides that he could probably help this man out by giving him some electric shock therapy and kind of this controversial new therapy for the time and he asks the family if he can continue coming back in and giving Rodrick these therapies, and so the book is about the fact that he's going back to this House, giving these therapies and slowly ingratiating himself more and more into the family and inserting them into their into their lives.

And as he's doing so creepy things start to happen around the house and it starts to feel like there is a sinister force inside the house that no longer wants the family there and is trying to expel them.

And very very creepy things start to happen inside. So this is her subversion of a haunted house story. I mean, I think if you've read Sarah Waters before you know that she's never going to take anything without a twist, and it is one of those books that shocked me because, like all Sarah Waters novels, there is a twist and the twist comes in the last paragraph of the book and I remember getting to the end and my jaw hitting the floor.

00:21:18 Sarah K

[slowly] I…have read this.

00:21:19 Chris

OK.

00:21:20 Sarah K

Now. Chris. Don’t be upset. [Chris laughs]

00:21:25 Sarah K

I'm not the Sarah Waters fan that you are.

00:21:28 Chris

It's OK. What do you not like about her out of curiosity? Because I know, I know she splits opinions quite a bit.

00:21:34 Sarah K

Yeah, the problem I have with the Sarah Waters…

I like THE LITTLE STRANGER actually, it's probably my the one that I've liked the most out of, I think I've read about three of hers now.

The problem I always have is that there's always some sort of romance-ish situation with the main characters and I just find it really hard to believe. This was more of a problem for me in FINGERSMITH, which you've probably read it as well, which is her most famous novel, and that's about like two women who were sort of in love, not in love. It's quite twisty, I can't remember exactly how it goes, but I just find the way that the characters like relate to each other and they're how they feel about each other.

I just I never buy it. There's something about it that I just don't, I can't buy into and for LITTLE STRANGER, I kind of felt the same way.

00:22:15 Chris

Interesting, I love Sarah Waters for her writing more than anything she has almost a rhythm to everything, that is, I find very suspenseful and very kind of gripping at the edge of my seat, and I would actually probably agree with you about her romances. I actually don't get super invested in those romances and THE LITTLE STRANGER is the only book of hers that lacks a queer romance.

Her books are fairly well known for having lesbian romances at their forefront. This is the only one that doesn't have that. Now there is a romantic engagement to an extent between Doctor Faraday and the daughter of this family that didn't bother me as much, I think because it's not presented as like a true romance in the sense like it's much more almost an odd convenience/obsession for both of them, which was kind of interesting to explore, and I also really like how she focuses on things about like historical elements that like, you wouldn't necessarily think about in like day-to-day life.

You know what I mean?

It's like, oh like, that is how you would have to get around such and such problem without the technology that we have today and it's just stuff that you just totally wouldn't think about.

But that book in particular has always stuck out with me because of the way that the Haunted House story is used to reflect the social anxiety of Britain at the time and this rise of social welfare and the labor force and how it was driving these aristocratic homes and there's this old money in that anxiety and the tension that is felt between these two because Doctor Faraday is he comes from working class stock and his mother was actually a former maid at the house.

So he has these kind of connections, but almost very almost certain envious connection to the house, somebody that has been a part of it but never truly been allowed to live inside of it.

00:24:21 Sarah K

Yeah, it's really interesting the way he's sort of intoxicated by the house like the idea of the house, he's very drawn to it.  It's definitely - it's good. I just don’t love it. But I know that my wonderful co-hosts are fans of Sarah Waters.

I'm also not the biggest, biggest fan of historical fiction, to be honest. Have you read TIPPING THE VELVET?

00:24:40 Chris

No, that's one of the ones I haven't read really.

00:24:42 Sarah K

Don't really, it's terrible, sorry Sarah. [laughter]

00:24:45 Chris

I've heard that it's her weakest.

00:24:47 Sarah K

It's bad.

It's like girl has romp through London. Many adventures. Manages to find literally every lesbian in London with no effort whatsoever like doesn't seem to be a problem. There's lesbians everywhere.

00:25:07 Chris

Well, I've heard too that like her motivation for wanting to write was that she had, like read a whole bunch of lesbian romance novels and was like these are all rubbish. I could do better than this.

Yeah, and I mean she probably has done better than a lot of like you know, the pulpy romances that were available at the time.

But yeah, I don't think that her romances really shine in any of her books, even though I do find the actual like other side plots about them very engaging.

And I thought, especially in I don't know if you read THE PAYING GUESTS, I did not like THE PAYING GUESTS, that's the only one of hers I really didn’t. In fact, that was my first Sarah Waters and I remember reading it thinking at once everyone talking about this like this is not good.

00:25:51 Sarah K

Is that the hotel one? 

00:25:53 Chris

Yeah, so it's it's about a mother-daughter who decided to open up their house to tenants and then a married couple comes in to occupy the tenancy and the daughter of the mom and the wife of the married couple started this illicit affair inside the house.

It wasn't very good, but yeah, in general I think THE LITTLE STRANGER is her strongest for me, even though it's considered a lot of people consider it her weakest.

00:26:20 Sarah K

No. They haven’t read TIPPING THE VELVET. [laughter]

00:26:24 Chris

I personally thought was great and it's also really good on audio, so I've read it twice now. I read it once physically and then I listened to the audiobook, which is narrated by Simon Vance and Re listening to it.

There's a lot of sections in that book where the creepy, potentially supernatural things are happening and I remember being horrified when I read it the first time. In particular, there's a scene that takes place in a nursery that, like you know, scared me beyond anything else I've ever been through in my life.

And I remember thinking well when I reread it because I know what's actually going on, and I know what the twist is this won't be as scary, and it's so much scarier, like when you know it's actually happening, it's so much more sinister.

00:27:04 Sarah K

God yeah.

What are other books? I'm trying to think of others.

00:27:08 Chris

She's written 6, so there's THE PAYING GUESTS, THE NIGHT WATCH, THE LITTLE STRANGER…

TIPPING THE VELVET!

AFFINITY.

00:27:22 Sarah K

Oh yeah, I've read AFFINITY as well.

00:27:25 Chris

If you've read FINGERSMITH, then the twist in AFFINITY is so obvious.

00:27:30 Sarah K

I didn't realize it was a twist. I thought it was just the plot [laughter]

00:27:36 Chris

Yeah, I think it's whichever one you read first that you're going to figure out the twist and the other one because of that.

00:27:42 Sarah K

Yeah, yeah I read - FINGERSMITH was the first one of hers I read. So yeah, I liked it at the time, but, yeah, just didn't believe that, I can’t remember the name of the two main characters, but just like did not believe that whole thing.

00:27:54 Chris

Yeah, I agree, and in fact I remember thinking in that book that they didn't feel like they had much of a romantic connection until the very end. And then it was just kind of like super forced down the reader's throat.

00:28:05 Sarah K

Yeah.

00:28:10 Sarah K

Right, what's your next book? And prompt.

00:28:14 Chris

Yeah, the next prompt is a book that most represents me as a reader and this is the one where I've cheated. I'm doing a whole series and this is where this is where we get to gush together.

00:28:25 Sarah K

Yes!

00:28:25 Chris

It is the REALM OF THE ELDERLINGS by Robin Hobb.

Is the book series that most represents me as a reader, so I think you know as somebody who watches my channel I read at this point about 50% fantasy and 50% literary fiction, and I read those things for such different reasons. You know, when I'm reading a fantasy book, the number one question I'm asking myself as somebody who's reviews books is did this entertain me?

Uhm, you know, did I feel invested? And when I read literary fiction, you know I'm wanting that those moments of like that make me think and I'm wanting, you know, really deep intimate characterization and slow storytelling, and what Robin Hobb says to me as a reader is that I get to have my cake and eat it too. 

And I feel that her books provide such exciting plotlines and such intimate, intimately drawn worlds and characters to fall in love with, and I don't think that anyone provides me the level of escapism that her books provide me with, matched with a level of depth for her characters, so you want me to try and like summarize a little bit of what the how the whole world works…?

00:29:42 Sarah K

Yeah, go for  it! The listeners will be like, are you kidding me? [laughs] I’d like to hear the way you summarize it, actually.

00:29:50 Chris

So the REALM OF THE ELDERLINGS opens up with the FARSEER trilogy, and that trilogy is very much a traditional coming of age story. It's told in the first person perspective of this character named Fitz, and the book opens up when he's only five years old and he's dropped off at the Castle gates by his maternal grandfather who basically says I'm sick and tired of raising the King's bastard son. You know, the Prince needs to take responsibility for this, and so you know the the Royal family has to take in. This bastard child fits his father who is in line to be the next King, is forced to abdicate the throne and then, you know he's sucked into all this political intrigue because one of his uncles is clearly vying for position of power.

Wants to be usurp his brother, who would be the next King. And now Fitz, in order to be protected is trained up as an assassin by the Royal family because they feel that you can't have a bastard child who you know you can't have a free bastard child just doing whatever they want.

You know they'll be used by our political enemies, and so Fitz has to be trained up as an assassin and he also has to be trained up in the magic of his family, so there's this mostly telepathic magic that this family has and he also has another form of magic which is very looked down upon called the wit which allows them to communicate with animals and all of this sounds so cheesy doesn't it?

Like when you're describing it, it just sounds like the most basic fantasy, but it's not when you read it.

So she takes all of these tropes so seriously. And the consequences of what's taking place in this world so seriously that you never feel like you never feel like this is cliche.

I never feel like, oh, this has been done a million times before because even though some of those basic plots have been done plenty of times, I mean you know the Fantasy Boy with a Wolf and that type of thing but hers just feels completely different when you're reading it on the page.

And her writing is, her writing is superb like I love reading her descriptions and the way she pulls you into the world, all that different stuff and she's just phenomenal.

And I mean there's 16 books in this series, and you know, as you read, you know, the world just kind of explodes exponentially as you learn more information about different geographic locations and learn more about the characters there and the villains that she creates are so 3 dimensional.

And the plots themselves are so exciting like you're reading them with, just -  I, I mean, I remember when I read these books the first time around, I had to like tell myself to slow down because I was just like racing to get to the end of the next chapter to know what was going to happen.

You know, you felt almost like you do as a kid when you're reading, you know, and I don't think anything else is has captured my imagination the same way over the past, you know five years of reading.

00:32:59 Sarah K

Yeah, it's that like getting the next book – like if you read HARRY POTTER as a kid when it was coming out. If you're in like that generation. And you know how everyone would read it immediately and you’re desperate to know what happens, is that like kind of feeling as an adult, which is pretty cool.

So it's the only time I've ever had it as an adult, yeah, yeah, her characters are incredible.

The thing I like the most about them is that you can - OK for most books, people's favorite characters is going to be one of, like you know, two or three. This is like a whole range of characters. None of them are inherently good. None of them are like inherently bad. They're very complicated characters. Even the main characters who are, like you know, “good” guys, they’re not really. They're super complicated.

They do some bad things. They make poor decisions and exactly as you're saying, the consequences, especially as the main character fits your following his life for like from the time he's like saying six years old at the beginning all the way through until I don't know, I haven't finished the series, I don't know how old he is, but he all these things happened to him, and he as an adult was like really suffering emotionally.

For those things that have happened to him, it's not like a lot of fantasy novels are like, oh, we all had a there was war and we all like killed many people and there was no consequences to that. He's really like thinking back on what things he did as a teenager and I also love how he's kind of an impulsive teenager as a as a teenager, and then he sort of thinks back on that later and he feels shame about how he what things he said and things he did, which is like very relatable for everyone. [laughs]

So yeah, fantastic.

00:34:35 Chris

I completely agree, and she's like you said she follows him throughout so many different stages of his life and he revisits these relationships that he had.

I mean, that's the core of the series, is the relationships between the people and the one relationship that really follows all of these books, for the most part is the relationship between Fitz and this Motley Fool that he meets when he's young and it turns out that this fool obviously has a much greater significance for the world, and they developed this friendship when they're young that extends throughout their entire lives and the way that that gets explored is phenomenal.

I don't think that and other book series takes friendship as seriously as that one does, because a lot of people have classified it as like a great love story that's not actually romantic, and that's one of the I think the best ways to describe it, and the way that it fits revisits that relationship throughout his life, and the consequences that you know what they've done together has on where they each are emotionally, now and how they relate to each other is phenomenally well handled and that's this is all this just saying about the Fitz books. 

I mean, that's not even talking about the LIVESHIP books, which are arguably her best works in terms of epic fantasy. I mean, those books are, you know, set in a different part of the world. You have a completely different cast of characters, and yet they're just equally as gripping the plot lines in them are unheard of in in that book series.

Again is one of those books series, if you describe the plots of it, you know it just sounds ridiculous.

It's about, you know a group of aristocratic traders that own talking ships. I mean my, you know how, how could that, how could that be any more childish, right?

00:36:30 Sarah K

[laughs] You can swear if you want. Yeah, it's it sounds ridiculous.

00:36:36 Chris

It sounds ridiculous exactly, but when you read it like each of the ships has their own character, their own problems, the everything relates back to each other.

00:36:36 Sarah K

Very like Pirates of the Caribbean, yeah?

00:36:48 Chris

Yeah. Although the villain in that in that series is a pirate captain named Kennit, who is just despicable.

Yeah, but so three-dimensional like you just read him and you're just like I've never read any book that took the emotions of the villain so seriously and in genre fiction.

00:37:09 Sarah K

I actually love Kennit. He’s one of my favorites, so he does such awful things, but you understand why he's doing. I mean you don't agree with the stupid things that he does like, he's a very like cutthroat person, but you get to hear his like internal reasoning and I just think he’s so fantastic as a character, and he's also like so funny, but he's awful, and so I just found, I think it's just a masterstroke of a character and then it's even from the first book he's like that.

But then as it goes through like the 2nd or the 3rd book in that trilogy, it's just even more extensive how you feel for him, and like how complicated his relationships are with the other characters, it's just, it's insane, the other character that I think is particularly well done in those books is Malta.

Yes, you start off like I hated much at the beginning, so she's this bratty teenager and you're just like shut up Malta, I don't wanna read Malta’s sections, I hate her!

00:38:05 Chris

She's compared a lot of times to like Sansa Stark and then in the Game of Thrones series. And she definitely has kind of a similar character arcs, as she's the daughter of this, you know, once affluent aristocratic family and you know she's just, you know, they're they've suffered all these financial hard times.

In the beginning, it just seems like she's willing to put her family at risk for anything. I mean, she's so devious and she's so smart and she has no interest in applying what could be those as strengths to actually benefiting the family?

She's so selfish and she wants what she wants. And, you know? The beginning, you're just like oh I could ring this girl's neck, you know like I could just beat her. And then as she goes on and you know and as she suffers some like hard times and has to like learn how to apply her strengths in productive ways. It's just her character arc is phenomenal. Unmatched. By the 3rd book, I was like this is the best character ever.

00:39:06 Sarah K

Yeah, she's she's good.

I also really admired how I'm also a sort of Malta’s actions are kind of key to a couple of critical plot points, and it would have been very easy for her  to have this kind of like, oh, I'm, I'm sorry I'm not going to be this way anymore. I'm going to like you know, do things like cooperate to make it easy for everyone else and she doesn't do that.

When I first read that I was like how dare you? But then later I was like no, it's just so true to the character, like the characterization is just so complete and so whole, it doesn't service the plot really.

In that way, it just feels like real. It's fantastic.

00:39:44 Chris

And I think a lot of people get frustrated by Robin Hobb’s teenagers, but I just think she presents them in ways that feel very realistic to me and I think that's why they are frustrating.

It's like, yeah, this is exactly how teenagers react! They're so self-centered and all that.

00:39:58 Sarah K

Yeah – they’re teenagers, hello! It's fantastic.

OK now I'm going to do a little spoilery conversation, if that's OK. 

Which I'll put the ad break in here so you guys can listen to the ad while we have this conversation.

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00:40:14 Sarah K

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00:41:03 Sarah K

All right now I need to climb my mind out of Robin Hobb.

And then what is the next prompt and book that you've chosen?

00:41:11 Chris

Got the next prompt is a book that I think is underrated and I have chosen SELF-PORTRAIT WITH BOY by Rachel Lyon.  Have you read this one or heard of it?

00:41:22 Sarah K

Never heard of it.

00:41:23 Chris

It is phenomenal. It is a debut novel that came out in 2018 and you know, sometimes books just don't take off commercially and you just kind of sit back and wonder why like you know. Was this a lack of marketing? You know, what was happening here? 'cause it got really good reviews. It was up for the International Dublin Literary Award, but I think this book is just one of the most underrated gems out there in recent years. It is about a 25 year old woman named Lou who is a recent art graduate student. It's set in the 90s in Brooklyn and she is a photographer a very like high end, you know, artsy-fartsy photographer and she's working three jobs.

She's living in this like artist block of apartments where the rent has always been fairly cheap for Brooklyn. But now they're trying to sell the apartment block to developers, so her rent is probably going to go up, and she the only thing she's doing to really keep herself grounded in the art world is that every day she takes a self-portrait and when the book opens up, she decides that she's going to stand in front of her window and leap into the air and set the timer on her camera so that it snaps her mid leap and she does this and when she lands from her jump she hears all this commotion going on outside.

And so she goes outside to see what's going on, only to realize that the upstairs neighbor, their young son, has fallen off of the balcony and plummeted to his death. And so she in the meantime, between getting this photograph developed, develops this kind of friendship with the mother. And you know, it's this really complicated relationship between them and starts to kind of offer her support and then she finally gets her photograph developed from that day and she gets these photographs developed like really big kind of blown up photos and she can see that in the background of the photo is the young boy falling to his death and she realizes that this image of this young free 25 year old woman jumping in the air juxtaposed with this young child, falling to his death is her masterpiece.

Like this is the thing that will finally break her into the art world, this is the thing that will solve her financial problems. This is the thing that will, you know, force her to be taken seriously and she also realizes that the image itself is obscene and that it's exploitive of these people's story. It's exploitive of their emotions and their grief, and this book is about the series of events that happens next, which I won't spoil. And ultimately, whether or not she is going to try and display this piece of art.

It is gripping the writing in it is really tense and really taught, and I remember reading every chapter and just being like at the edge of my seat you know? I mean this book it you know this book at the end of the day, I mean, there's no violence that you're afraid of or anything like that. But you feel horrified by every action that the character is taking, and she's one of those characters that's really excellent. Like if I was to ever recommend that you buddy read a book with somebody, this is the book because she's so, she splits opinions so hard like there's a part of you that wants to root for her because she's looked down upon really badly because of her class and where she comes from.

A lot of artsy people don't like her so you want to see her prove them wrong and at the same time you're like horrified by what she wants to do.

Oh, it's just brilliant.

00:44:56 Sarah K

This sounds intense. Really intense. 

00:44:57 Chris

It's so intense, it's so intense and it's a really hard look at grief, so you get a lot of passages of Lou and this mother talking very frankly about their feelings of this child dying and the mother is kind of in parts kind of open about the fact that, like - there's a part of her that's relieved like all this responsibility, all this stuff that she was faced with that could go wrong with motherhood. All that's been taken away from her. All that stress has been taken away from her. And the fact that her son wasn't at times likable, like you know he would annoy her and pester her and she doesn't have to deal with that anymore.

And then she finds herself thinking that and then she thinks she's a horrible person for thinking that and all of that gets explored with this real intensity in this book, and it's just phenomenal.

00:45:47 Sarah K

God, it sounds fantastic. I'm going to read it.

00:45:50 Chris

Yeah, it's really good.

00:45:51 Sarah K

I can't believe I've never heard of it, so this is her debut, you said? 

00:45:53 Chris

Yeah it came out in 2018 and like I said it was one of those books where I'm just like I do not understand how more people have not found this and how more people are not talking about it because it was just a real cracker of a book like it was a certain you know, almost fiery feeling you have when you're reading it.

00:46:15 Sarah K

God. Has she written anything else since then, do you know? 

00:46:18 Chris

She writes a decent amount of short stories and still publishes them in literary magazines, but that's so far is their only full length book.

And like I said, I mean it was longlisted for the International Dublin Literary Award, but that's kind of the last I've really heard about it, but I just think it's a really excellent look at you know all these different issues.

And there's also a certain supernatural element in this book, because Lou starts to feel like maybe she's being haunted by the ghost of this young child in her apartment.

And yeah, it's just really fascinating, God. Fascinating.

00:46:47 Sarah K

It sounds wonderful. I've underlined - I've written it down. I just kept underlining it. Well, three underlines.

I mean, we know how much I love books on grief.

00:46:58 Chris

Yes, yes.

00:46:59 Sarah K

I mean really, it sounds fantastic. I’m going to read it immediately. I can't even picture it so I don't know how that's completely passed me by. Is it a US  - is it an American title? 

00:47:07 Chris

It was published in the US - I think that she's an American author. I don't know that it ever got like an international release. I don't think 'cause I remember thinking at the time that I was hoping it would get long listed for the Women's prize. And then I looked. I remember like when I was that year, like trying to put together my like list of predictions which I was naively doing in the past, I remember looking up to see if that book had been published in the UK and it hadn't been so I don't think that it's gotten an international release, so it's just one of those books where you just wonder you kind of sit back and wonder, you know, who dropped the ball on this?

Because this should be, you know, flying off the shelves.

00:47:45 Sarah K

Oh, it drives me nuts, especially when you know other books could be removed. [laughs] Plenty of room on those shelves.

Oh, sounds fantastic. I'll underline it again. Just to be sure that I remember. So one more book that you have? 

00:48:00 Chris

Those were just the five prompts – do you want me to do another one?

00:48:03 Sarah K

No, I thought no – I just can’t count. Question. Is WICKED your favourite book, do you have another favorite book that you haven't mentioned? I'll just drop that the $10,000 question. [laughs]

00:48:14 Chris

That's a hard question, but it's definitely the book I've revisited the most, and it's the one I've reread the most. So in some ways I think I would almost want to answer yes, and in a lot of ways it provides me like it is a fantasy book, you know, and it has like worldbuilding and stuff like that and like, little obsessive details that you can fall down the rabbit hole, which are really fun.

And so, in some ways it also provides me some of those same Robin Hobb feels, although I will say the characterization is less intimate even though it's just as complex. You know, you don't feel particularly attached to these people because they're quite like I said earlier, nasty.

So yeah, it would definitely be in my top five favorites of all time without a question and and having reread it just recently I was - I was really glad that it held up, yeah completely.

00:48:58 Sarah K

[laughs] Yeah I can’t believe I hadn’t heard of that before, how crazy. Is there another book that you like or couldn't fit into the questions or like that you would love to shout that you don't think has enough press? Sorry that I'm dropping all these questions on you! 

00:49:14 Chris

No, I have to think I'm now I'm like looking around my shelves like give me an answer give me an answer.

Hmm. If I had to say like I don't know, I feel like the one that I would like give a shout out to is like an author that's super famous and like I'm sure you've heard me mention many times and that would be Ann Patchett so it's like weird to be like oh she's underrated because she's clearly not like she's the bestselling author like many times over. But the book that I feel like it's ignored by her many times and people tend to not pick up is a book called THE MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT. You have read this one right?

00:49:48 Sarah K

No, I've never read any, never read any Ann Patchett.

00:49:52 Chris

Oh, you would love her. She's really good.

00:49:54 Sarah K

Do you think?

00:49:55 Chris

Oh yeah! She’s very um - it's hard to say like where people should start with her, but I would say THE MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANTS very good it reminded like it's set and it follows a family from the Midwest and so in that way it felt very familiar to me and some of the quirky, eccentric cities of the characters in that book. Some people might look at it be like, oh come on, but they felt very real to like people I grew up with, so THE MAGICIAN'S ASSISTANT is about a woman who was in a marriage of convenience with a man who was gay in the early 1990s and he was a magician. She was his assistant.

They were very good friends and in a lot of ways they did love each other.

Just obviously not sexually. And so when he got sick with HIV AIDS and they decided to get married in order for him to have somebody to kind of leave the money to and also just to kind of like spend their last years together and then he died suddenly from [an] aneurysm.

And so, she was expecting to kind of have these kind of like few more years left with him as he kind of got sick in front of her and all of that is robbed from her. And then it turns out after he dies, this family of his makes contact with her, and she had always been under the assumption that his whole entire family was dead.

And actually, it turns out that he has his whole family living in Nebraska, and so she has to kind of travel there, meet with the family and work out the details of his death and also try and get to the bottom line of why did he lie to her about this family and why did he keep this secret and kind of untangling this family?

And I just think it's brilliant. It's one of those books that I think is a really interesting look at a relationship that I think people on the outside would judge really harshly but clearly worked for them in a look at this family that failed their son in so many ways.

While at the same time felt full of love.

00:51:51 Sarah K

So this is. - Ann Patchett wrote THE DUTCH HOUSE right?

00:51:55 Chris

Yes.

00:51:56 Sarah K

Right, OK, yeah I think I lump her in my mind with Anne Tyler because they have the same name. [laughs] who I don't like.

00:52:03 Chris

I don't like Anne Tyler either.

00:52:06 Sarah K

Right, ok, good. [laughs] Yeah, obviously I need to give Ann Patchett a go.

I mean it's a very harsh critique to just say your name is too similar to someone else’s. 

00:52:10 Chris

Yes. [laughs]  I've only tried A SPOOL OF BLUE THREAD by Anne Tyler and I really didn't like it.

I got like halfway through it, I didn't believe the dialogue. I didn't believe the characters and I actually went into it expecting it to be similar to Ann Patchett, I think like you because they both write these kind of family dramas and their names or both and they're kind of similar to like age range of author so it's kind of expecting it to be similar and no, they're not similar at all in my opinion.

00:52:37 Sarah K

Yeah, OK, yeah I read REDHEAD BY THE SIDE OF THE ROAD which is the Anne Tyler book that was nominated for the Booker last year.  I thought that was dreadful. And it really put me off Ann Patchett, very unfairly.

00:52:49 Chris

I found and maybe I don't know what your problem was with REDHEAD BY THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, but I found all the conversations in A SPOOL OF BLUE THREAD to be very melodramatic.

Like people on the phone would just say exactly what they were thinking in the most heightened emotional states possible and in ways that just did not feel realistic. It was like, you know, you want it.

You want to just come out and say that you know what I mean.

00:53:10 Sarah K

Oh, I found Redhead to be boring like really boring like as interesting as a as a program about antiquing like it was really like, really uninteresting.

00:53:17 Chris

Oh wow.

00:53:21 Sarah K

It - dull like really dull like. I can't think of it. You know, as dull as used cotton wool, I don't know.

But boring.

00:53:29 Chris

Yeah, no. I definitely think that if you didn't like Anne Tyler, you could still definitely like Ann Patchett it and her books are also very different, like every one of her books has like a completely different feel.

Yeah, some of them are like almost feel like kitchen sink dramas and some of them are, you know status.

00:53:46 Sarah K

What's a kitchen sink drama?

00:53:48 Chris

I always think I don't know where I first heard the term but it's like a drama that could just take place around the kitchen.

Like characters that could just, you know, this is just their life. This is just their house.

This is just the conversations they're having, you know.

00:54:02 Sarah K

Oh, OK. Like, uh, domestic, yeah whatever.

00:54:05 Chris

Yeah, yeah, I guess it's a quirkier way -  I don't know why I said kitchen sink drama.

I feel like I've heard that I heard that term a long time ago and it's always stuck around with me.

00:54:10 Sarah K

No, I like it, I was - I like it.

00:54:17 Chris

Uh, so some of her books were kind of like that, but then something like state of wonder almost has like a fantastical element to it, and it's about a woman trying to uncover the mystery of what happened to a scientist. Just in the Amazon and it's very dark and twisty.

And you know there's all her books have a very different feel, you know? THE DUTCH HOUSE almost has like almost a Gothic feel to it.

00:54:38 Sarah K

Interesting, yeah, you really liked THE DUTCH HOUSE as well, didn't you?

00:54:42 Chris

Yeah, I loved THE DUTCH HOUSE. It was a really good book.

00:54:45 Sarah K

All right, I'll get over my bizarre stupid prejudice, which is nothing. I mean, how daft.

00:54:52 Chris

[laughs] I've definitely had similar things like that. O just like I get 2 authors like linked in my mind as being like similar and I just think you know, or especially if I feel like I've seen them be friendly with each other,  

I start to judge based on that yeah exactly.

00:55:05 Sarah K

Guilty by association. I also - I'm very swayed by marketing and stuff in a negative way.

Like if there's if a publisher is using a word I don't like. I'm like no thank you.

00:55:14 Chris

Oh, really.

00:55:16 Sarah K

Yeah, anything like gritty any word like that

00:55:19 Chris

Yeah, I think I I can. - I can kind of see that if a book is - I feel like the words relentlessly paced if I see that anywhere I'm just like never.

00:55:27 Sarah K

Oh Christ

00:55:28 Chris

I'm not reading that like if that's the selling point and I feel like the opposite is never like true like you never see publishers advertising books based on the fact that they're slow paced and I wish they would like.

00:55:30 Sarah K

Yeah.

00:55:39 Chris

How do you do that?

Carefully paced, deliberately drawn.

You know something like that. I wish publishers would be more upfront about that because that's that's the marketing that's going to grab me.

00:55:51 Sarah K

Yeah, I think there's a pool of about 10 words that they grab from every time they need to sell a new book, God.

00:55:58 Chris

Yeah.

00:56:01 Sarah K

Well, I think that's it right, right? Have you any final thoughts?

00:56:05 Chris

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

This was a blast.

00:56:10 Sarah K

Oh, thank you so much for doing it.

I really enjoyed it so we'll leave you - so you're basically Bookish Cauldron on like Instagram, Twitter and stuff, right?

00:56:16 Chris

Yep.

00:56:16 Sarah K

We’ll leave to Chris in the show notes and I really encourage you to check him out and his videos, especially for Robin Hobb-related stuff. Fantastic. But if you like the kind of books I like then I think you will really enjoy Chris’ content. 

Thanks again, thanks very much, Chris.

And thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed the episode.

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