Harmonizing Faith and Pop Culture: The Gospel According to Taylor Swift

Wondering how Taylor Swift's music can intersect with the Gospel? Join our Pastors Lora East and Dave Carpenter, along with our music director, Nancy Reeves, unpack the surprising and insightful journey of our recent unconventional sermon series - the Gospel According to Taylor Swift. We'll shed light on why this series was chosen, the divine timing around it, and how it sparked deep, meaningful conversations within our worship community. In this faith-filled exploration, we'll also discuss the importance of embracing current pop culture phenomena like Taylor Swift's music to connect with the younger generation and make our services more relatable.

With new concepts come controversies, and we'll share how we navigated through these waters. But it's not all about challenges - we'll also look at the positive influence of integrating elements of modern culture into our faith discussions. Using themes from Taylor Swift's music as a springboard, we encourage dialogues that push boundaries, accept varying perspectives, and create space for discomfort - because growth often happens outside our comfort zones. We passionately believe that these conversations, although tough, have the potential to enrich our faith community's understanding and acceptance. So tune in to hear how our church, with its unique qualities, has become a welcoming space for people of all faith backgrounds and perspectives. Don't miss this episode, for it promises to be as enlightening as it is surprising.

Chapters

• 0:08 Exploring Taylor Swift's Gospel
• 9:16 The Gospel According to Taylor Swift
• 14:52 Embracing Controversy and Growth in Worship

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to Resilient Faith, the podcast. Opportunities to find deeper resilience within ourselves can come when life seems most challenging. This podcast is to help you develop that resilience and connection with God. Being resilient and having power starts with faith. Welcome, friends, to the Resilient Faith podcast sponsored by Brentwood Presbyterian Church in West Los Angeles. We are sharing our sermons from our recent series, the Gospel According to Taylor Swift. This was a six-week sermon series in the fall of 2023. It's important in this day and age to talk about current events and pop culture in our worship and be in dialogue with Christian perspectives and scripture. Using Taylor Swift's lyrics and some of her songs as a launching pad, we are discussing some of the important issues and looking through them with a Christian lens. Thanks for listening and we pray that the Holy Spirit reaches you through this series.

Speaker 2: 1:31

Hey everyone, welcome. I'm Janice McQueen. I'm so excited to be here. I am the producer for the Resilient Faith podcast and I'm joined with my friends, pastors Laura East and Dave Carpenter, and friend Nancy Reeves, who's our music director, and they are just such wonderful people and I'm so excited to be part of this faith community. We're here today to talk about the Gospel According to Taylor Swift. It's our new sermon series and I know that I'm excited. But I wanted to first ask everyone's opinion about this particular sermon series. What is the reason that you chose this as a topic for a sermon series? Because it's a pretty exciting topic. Let's start with you, laura. What do you think?

Speaker 1: 2:17

Okay, well, janice, thank you so much for bringing us together, Thank you for producing this podcast. It has really been such a gift and a great form of outreach for our community, and it's really a pleasure to gather today and have this conversation. We have been talking about this and been looking forward to it, and it's an opportunity to report back on what our experience has been since we launched this series and then just completed it a week or two ago. So this actually came up early in the year, maybe in April, and Dave was going away on sabbatical this summer. His family was going to be away for three months and so he needed to do sermon planning well before that. And so in April he comes into my office and he says so, any ideas, any input, what would you like to preach on? He's so good at incorporating me into these conversations and saying what would you like to preach on this coming year? What do you think?

Speaker 1: 3:23

And just kind of as a whim, I said, ooh, the gospel according to Taylor Swift, and my recollection. I'd love to hear your version of the story, but my recollection of it is he goes huh, yeah, now that could be fun. And I was like okay, but really okay, but really because we had all just had this adventure in LA. Well, taylor Swift fans worldwide, when the tickets for the concert went to her concert, her Ares tour, when they all went on sale in November, everybody had a story to tell, if they tried to get tickets, on what that adventure was like, and Dave and I were no different. We had stories to tell on trying to get tickets to the Ares tour, and so it had been. We had been discussing it then for a few months and the excitement with the tour that was launching and that it was coming to LA in August and all of that. So just sort of saying, in a fun, playful, kind of on a whim, well, what if we did a Taylor Swift sermon series? And then that that actually, you know, came to fruition and we saw it through. I mean, it was just so fun and so awesome in that way. So that's my recollection of how it started.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Now I will say the timing was purely a God thing, because she had just been in LA for six shows at the beginning of August and we launched our series at the very end of August, and so the city was full on Taylor Swift fever and we couldn't have even predicted that back in April that that's the vibe of the city, that we would all be, you know, taylor Swift mania, so it really felt serendipitous and like a God thing that she had just been here at the beginning of August and then we launched the series at the end of August. And you know, they say timing is everything and I feel like the timing for this was just perfect. It wasn't too soon, it wasn't too late, the timing was really perfect for where the city was, where our community was, in terms of her tour just finishing up the city, being crazy about her, and that she was everywhere in the media. And then for us being able to incorporate that into our worship just felt timely and relevant and creative and fun and quite an adventure.

Speaker 1: 6:00

Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 6:01

I know you're waiting to speak and I mean, we're all big Swifties here. Anyhow, we love her, but why choose Taylor Swift as a sermon series?

Speaker 3: 6:12

Well, I think we probably first have to begin by stepping back and just acknowledging that, while there are some churches that are mainly about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and saving souls and getting people inside the church and kind of secluding themselves from the rest of the world until they get to go to heaven, in the reform faith and the mainline denominations of which the Presbyterian church is one, we've always been very clear that we are called to be very engaged in the community and what's going on in the world, to be very much at the front of these conversations, and so I think it was Carl Bart who originally said we need to preach with the newspaper in one hand and the Bible in the other and see how the Bible and our faith relates to what's happening, the bigger conversations that are happening around the world. And I don't know if there is any bigger global phenomenon right now than Taylor Swift and all that she's causing us to think about and talk about around the world. I know for myself. I knew that my kids were big Swifties and loved her music, and so I started hearing things through them, but then, maybe even more so, just saw the influence that she and her music was having on them All of her advocacy for people who are marginalized and left on the outside. My kids were more confident. My daughter was more confident because of Taylor Swift. They were starting to become concerned about advocating for those who are marginalized and pushed to the borders of our society, and I just started loving seeing some of the things that Taylor Swift's music was doing in the lives of my children, so I was becoming more and more a Swiftie.

Speaker 3: 8:03

We got tickets for this concert, and what a concert it was. But I would say that, more than anything else, we really do need to be in the middle of the conversations that the world is talking about, and I don't know if there's anyone right now, unfortunately, between the rifts we see in our politics around the world and in our nation, the rifts we see between faiths and religion, I don't know if there's anyone who's uniting a bigger swath of our planet right now than Taylor Swift, and so I thought it was imperative for us to be engaged in the conversations that she is raising, and so it was a fun chance for us to use some of her music and some of the issues she's passionate about to come and say okay, what is a Christian approach? What's the Christian view of some of these important topics that the world is talking about right now?

Speaker 2: 8:57

Well, you mentioned, of course, she's a musician, and very well known one. So we have to get your opinion on the music part of it, annecy, because I think that's a whole other element that is brought into the conversation when you're talking about the fact that it's a musician. That is part of the sermon series.

Speaker 4: 9:13

Well, yes, definitely. You know we've used a lot of popular music styles within our church. You know, the contemporary music that we use is very much, very similar to what Taylor sings and writes about, and so I, when Dave and Laura came to me about this idea, I thought to myself. Really that was my first thought. And then, the more I thought about it, the more I thought what a fun idea, what it brings some levity. You know, we're not all serious church here. This is a little bit fun. We're bringing in popular culture and we need to meet people where they are. You know, people don't listen to Gregorian chant, so they don't. They don't, I don't think.

Speaker 3: 10:12

so that's not on the radio I do sometimes.

Speaker 1: 10:16

No, I don't think it's trending on Spotify. No, not at all. Not at all.

Speaker 4: 10:20

So I thought, you know, I just I love the idea and I thought that this was a great opportunity for us to do something different and start a conversation that's a little bit different, which is always great.

Speaker 2: 10:35

That's what I've always loved about this church, for as long as I have been a member and part of this community, is the fact that I feel we just opened the doors for everyone, that everyone is welcome, and that also means you're welcoming in different opinions and that's okay. I think that conversation is healthy. It's very important nowadays to talk about how you feel, and I know that having such a dynamic and modern topic allows people to feel the lyrics that Taylor Swift writes, but also feel the change that's happening in the world. But it also brings up conversation and it brings up let's just say it criticism and controversy, and I think anytime you're trying to change the world, you're trying to make it a better place and you're trying to evolve as a person, you can bring up controversy and you can bring up that conversation that is difficult to have, and I don't think that escaped us here with Presbyterian Church.

Speaker 2: 11:42

So let's just open the floor. I want you to chime in whenever you feel comfortable, but what is some of the controversy that you have faced as a church community?

Speaker 3: 11:54

Well, yeah, we've had. I would start by saying that, overwhelmingly, we have had positive responses to this. Our national church reached out to us and wanted to write an article about it. We had. We were hoping that maybe some young people who haven't been to church before would want to come to hear what we had to say about some of Taylor Swift's music, and that definitely happened. We had lots of young people from around our neighborhood. We heard from parents who were saying that their kids were saying we have to go to church this Sunday because the church on the corner is preaching about Taylor Swift. And we've seen people are taking stopping on the way to the farmer's market to take pictures, and people coming back from the farmer's market who stopped and came into the church to see what we were doing. And all of that is what we were hoping for. And even our older generation most of them were saying I don't really know Taylor Swift or her music, but boy oh boy, this seems to really be creating a buzz and it's fun.

Speaker 3: 12:55

The other thing I would say is that I think there's some people who felt like that we were saying, oh, we believe everything that Taylor Swift sings about and says is that we're holding her up as some sort of religious icon.

Speaker 3: 13:11

There are people who are complaining that we were deifying Taylor Swift or that we were bringing the entertainment industry into the church, and so, again, I would need to be really clear that we started the series by saying, like, we don't endorse everything that Taylor Swift says or does, but she's talking about important issues that are important to our whole world and we need to take a look and see what the Bible says about these things, what we have to say about these things, who we were using her music as a launching pad.

Speaker 3: 13:44

I also think that there are some people who didn't realize that this idea of the gospel according to so and so is a real genre within the Christian community. There are books out there the gospel according to Bart Simpson or Betty White, the gospel according to Vince Lombardi or Garth Brooks and it doesn't mean that any of these books or sermon series or Bible studies are endorsing everything that these people say, but saying that they are relevant people talking about important issues in our world, and we want to use that as a way to talk about these issues and where we stand on them, and so, yeah, so we've had some people who have struggled with it a little bit, and we totally understand that, but we really do believe that this is a chance for us to engage with the things that the world is talking about in a way that brings the light of Christ and faith and God and God's kingdom to bear on these important issues.

Speaker 1: 14:51

Yeah, yeah. I'll add to that that for the most part, even people for whom this wasn't their favorite series or it didn't totally resonate with them, there was still, overall, a very gracious response that understood where we were coming from as the worship leadership, that recognized what good it could do in the community, that it could bring some more people in, that we could talk about Scripture and faith and the love of God in a unique and creative and different way, and overall there was a lot of graciousness around it that also said well, it's only six weeks, so it's not forever, you know there will be.

Speaker 1: 15:45

you know, we will eventually move on to something else, and also a gracious response that not every sermon is for every person, not every series is for every person, but that's okay. That's a part of being in a community, a part of trying to reach different people who are going through different things in life.

Speaker 2: 16:04

I mean I just I think anytime you try to change the narrative it's a positive thing. It's going to hopefully reach people that may not have thought about church for a while or thought about coming into the actual house of God for a while. Maybe they're listening, but I think it's a great thing, challenges and all, because her music and what she's gone through as a person we can relate to, no matter what her generation is, and I see her as someone who's very resilient, which is perfect for this podcast. Of course she's very resilient.

Speaker 2: 16:43

She's gone through a lot and she sings about it, as most great musicians do. They write about it and they sing about it. Right, but you had another. You had another thought.

Speaker 1: 16:58

Well, so sort of on that note, thinking about conflict or controversy or the fact that on everybody would agree on everything that we say or do at church is kind of built into the cake of Christian community, of faith community and we kept posing the question is it okay to be uncomfortable in church? And what's the purpose of worship? Is it always to be comfortable? Is it always to feel like you know everything that's going on and you agree with everything that's being said? Well, probably not. And so it's okay to be uncomfortable in worship. It's okay to not agree with everything that's said, because that's to me that's information about our own faith, our own beliefs, our own experience.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Wow, I didn't really like that, or it didn't resonate with me, or I didn't really agree with that. Why is that? What nerve is that touching, or what belief is that challenging, or what perspective do I have that's different on that, and where does that come from? So I think it's also an opportunity to have those conversations and to acknowledge sometimes we're uncomfortable in worship and that's okay. That's a part of it.

Speaker 4: 18:19

And I think that when you give people that opportunity to look at something that's different from what they normally look at, tv radio, of course radio is out with young people, it's podcasting, podcasting.

Speaker 2: 18:38

Podcasting Showing my age Podcasting.

Speaker 4: 18:42

But you expand your world and expand your mind and you learn new things, and I think that that's what this series has brought about too. It's like I wasn't really a Swifty, but I think I am now.

Speaker 3: 19:00

It speaks and I can hear her songs when they come on the radio, so that's good and I would add to all of that to say that since long before I arrived here, bpc has always considered itself a big tent, and it's a place where we have a lot of different people, people who are just beginning to explore faith, people who've been part of the church since the day they were born more conservative, more liberal, more evangelical, more quasi-agnostic. We have a large spectrum of people and we are a church. When people leave here, they often try to find another church like ours, and they can't, and I know that since the time I got to know BPC long before I was ever here I felt that same way about BPC. We often say to people this is not your parents' Presbyterian church. Or we say wherever you are or aren't on your faith journey, there is a place for you.

Speaker 3: 19:59

You are welcome here, and so we've never shied away from talking about the real issues that the world is talking about, and so there's gonna be some controversy just in talking about women's issues and the glass ceiling and women's rights and misogyny. There's going to be controversy talking about the gay community and LGBTQIA plus rights, and these are important issues that are at the forefront of our nation right now. Talking about mental health issues and depression. These are never going to be easy things to talk about, but one of the things I'm most proud about our church is it is never backed away from wading into these important issues.

Speaker 2: 20:41

That's an important thing to say too. I think that's. I think this is what the thought that came to me as you guys were talking is that I think Taylor Swift because she's here, she's alive. Most of the time the church is talking about the scripture. They're talking about things that happened in the past and how we've learned from that and how we take real life into account from what's happened in the past and how God leads us. But she's very current. She's alive now, she is living now, she is making statements now, she's going through things now and it is a trigger for so many people from the things that she talks about, the things that she's gone through. It is a trigger for many people, especially after what we've lived through the past few years, and I think it's important to talk about it because it does allow us to grow.

Speaker 2: 21:28

Everything that you've said is allows us to evolve and grow, and the church should talk about that. We should be current. I think the church should maybe open that store just a little bit so that it heals a little bit better. So I love the fact that you're constantly thinking about unique ways to engage with everyone, regardless of where they are on their faith journey. I know for a fact I've never found a church that I love as much as Brentwood. There's just something special about this church and the community and the people, and I hope that you hear some of that in the podcast and continue listening through its evolution and also visit our church as much as you can, especially when you're here in Los Angeles. But I have to end on a fun note, because Taylor Swift is such a wonderful musician. What is your favorite song? Let's start with you, nancy.

Speaker 4: 22:26

Well, from the series that I think, for what I know of Taylor, I think it was Shake it Off. It's such a fun song, but it also tells us, whatever other people are talking about you just shake it off, that's okay. Just be yourself and be the person that God has created. You are perfect the way you are. I like that.

Speaker 3: 22:57

Why don't I go next? Because I'll build on Nancy's to say that Shake it Off was probably the one that really hooked me when I was watching my kids and their reaction to Taylor Swift. There is a section and we also. We played the videos because sometimes the videos go much further than just the lyrics of the music does. And Shake it Off is kind of about her and the journey she's been through and how she just needs to let go of some of the criticism she's gotten.

Speaker 3: 23:26

But there's a whole section at the end of this video where it's just normal kids of every shape, size and color, some who seem so awkward and uncoordinated, and they are dancing like nobody's watching.

Speaker 3: 23:40

They're just going crazy, letting loose, being themselves, and it really drives home this idea that God has created you in the Amago Day exactly as you are, to be who you are and you don't need to worry about what anyone else think-sur-sets about you. And I saw that getting into the blood of my children and them taking that on and it was such it made me so happy for them and so grateful to Taylor Swift. But the other one I would say is I loved preaching about you need to calm down and LGBTQIA plus rights. And you know, in my own evolution I think I've always been, I've always cared a lot about this issue. But just seeing the way that society is changing, my own views are evolving some of my most conservative friends to see how their views and ideas and their eyes are opening and they're seeing new perspectives. I just to me it's an anthem and I loved that video and I loved preaching about it.

Speaker 2: 24:46

I thought it might be good for you to finish this off as our resident Swifty, I know.

Speaker 1: 24:53

Well, I'm wearing two Taylor Swift friendship bracelets right now that the podcast cannot see, but one of them is our song, which is the first song that Taylor put out on the radio that I heard. I still remember where I was the first time I heard this song, in 2007. And I was hooked at that point. So that's like my OG favorite song. But my other favorite song is I'm going to answer this in three parts, okay, my other favorite song is All Too Well. So I always say her red album got me through my first year in seminary. So I shared this with our congregation at some point I said I am here as your pastor because of the Taylor Swift red album, because that album got me through my first year in seminary.

Speaker 1: 25:48

But what I love about the song All Too Well is it's really this song about bearing witness to what happened and what was, and my friendship bracelet says I was there. And there is this essence of bearing witness to our lives, bearing witness to our relationships, to our heartache, to our joys, to our start, all of it. Bearing witness to what our life experience is and saying I was there, I remember it, I remember it all too well. But there's an act of, I think, real grace that comes in when we bear witness to each other's lives, when we bear witness to the good news of Jesus Christ, when we are able to walk alongside one another and say I was there when that happened or you were there for me when that happened, or just acknowledging that life is hard and we need one another and we need community and we really need our faith to get us through. So that's my second answer.

Speaker 1: 26:56

My third answer from the series, at least I think, is antihero, because in some ways we could do an entire series on depression and mental health and loneliness and that epidemic that we have, that pandemic that we have of loneliness and mental health issues and depression and anxiety.

Speaker 1: 27:20

I felt like I could really only barely scratch the surface. But the way that that one song talks about body issues and insecurity and not feeling like you belong and being depressed and being lonely and feeling like you're all alone in this world and not having anybody, that is just so heartbreakingly real and true for so many people that it can be talk about facing things that are hard, that can be really hard to talk about. That's not a cheery topic but it's so important. So many of our young people in our community talk about that. We have folks who work in schools and it comes up in high school, it comes up with college kids. It's just so prevalent and so discussing that, I think, is so important. So those are my three favorite songs at least an answer to your question right now.

Speaker 1: 28:23

If you ask me tomorrow, I might have a different answer.

Speaker 2: 28:26

No, I appreciate that very much.

Speaker 2: 28:29

I wasn't always a Swiftie.

Speaker 2: 28:31

I loved her music, but I think I really, really converted hearing the stories of people that went to her concert and I wasn't able to get tickets and I so hate that I didn't get a chance to see her live and I've just heard so many wonderful things about her ability to persevere and just to work so hard and to believe in everything that she says and does. And she's an imperfect, a perfect person, like all of us are, and I think that is someone to talk about and that's what we did. We talked about her, and I love this church for always looking for topics that make us think and make us so relevant and uncomfortable and, ultimately, part of the community. And if you're listening and you feel any of these things that you need to have a community and you need to reach out, we are here for you. So I want you to know that that's why we do this podcast is because we care about you wherever you live, and we hope that you'll come visit us and reach out to us really soon. Thanks, dave, thanks.

Speaker 3: 29:36

Thank you, this has been great.

Speaker 2: 29:38

It's always so wonderful to see you and talk with you and everyone. Please listen to this sermon series. There's so much more to come. We're so excited to have you here and we're just grateful for you.

Speaker 1: 29:49

Thank you, janice. You've been listening to Resilient Faith. The podcast Resilient Faith is sponsored by Brentwood Presbyterian Church in West Los Angeles. You can follow our church and this podcast on Facebook at BPC team and Instagram at BPC underscore USA. Make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and thanks for listening.