Matt Garrow-Fisher: 0:28

In this episode, I reflect back on key points my guests have shared about their career changes, and shed light on patterns I've noticed and how you can use this collective knowledge and experience practically in your own change journey, whether you want a career change or bigger lifestyle changes. The first point I wanted to talk about is turning points. And the moment you realise you want to change. And I share some clips from guests on when they realised they wanted to do something different with their life. First up, I have a clip from my interview with Phil Evangelou who left a high-pressure legal role in a startup in London to pursue a portfolio career with more freedom to work remotely and focus on his passion projects such as setting up a charity called Kupendo Kids donating toys to poor children in Africa. Here he discusses the time he realised when he wanted to change.

Phil Evangelou: 1:27

so I think I got to the stage where, yeah, I put my own interests below my job's interests. And then, eventually, you know, you get to a point where you feel a little bit disconnected from the real world. because you're so focused on achieving these career goals and these goals of the business you're working for, that you start to forget about your personal goals and your own personal development. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's what I was feeling towards the end of my four years stint. in that I pressure your job.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 2:06

In this next clip, I asked Dai Manuel, who spent 17 years building an 8 figure national fitness business across Canada, about the moments he realised he wanted to change:

Dai Manuel: 2:17

I learned a lot, but after 17 years, Matt, I knew it was time for change, you know, and just because my gut told me that. I had this feeling. I was not feeling satisfied. I was not excited to go into work anymore. I wasn't even excited to have those type of conversations with my teams, with my suppliers. I just, everything became harder. And you know, if I back it up a couple years, probably closer, you know, a couple of years before getting to the 17 year Mark, more like 18 months actually might I had gone through a period of time where I had my Jerry McGuire moment. You remember at the beginning where he stays up all night, writing in his manifesto, write about how he wants to change the industry and everything that he sees, and he sees this, this paradigm shift needed. Right. And, uh, I had the same sort of experience, uh, you know, I got to a point where I was feeling quite burnt out. So, um, My partner and I agreed. I'd take a break for a few weeks. And I flew from Vancouver to Toronto to see family and just really decompress and just not thinking about work. And, uh, of course, when you try not to think about work, you start thinking about a lot of other things that, that you may be interested in. And so I sat down and I wrote a manifesto. My personal manifesto, uh, which incorporate a lot of things. I wanted to aspire for my own personal life, but also where I envisioned our company going and where I thought there may be opportunities and, and things that would get me excited, you know, to get me re-engaged to get me wanting to recommit to this business, you know, to this career path. Long and short of the story, my partner never read it, then read it. You know, we never really had a discussion around it. It was a, it was sort of just a blip. And I saw it at that point. I felt really, I don't know, disconnected and just disappointed.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 4:18

You see, a lot of times, when things aren't feeling good or working out how you hoped in your career or business, there is a misalignment between your personal goals and your career goals. When you don't correct that imbalance, or realise that your career and personal goals are on two different paths that might never cross, or perhaps you never will have the time or flexibility to work on your own projects, that is where internal conflict, and feeling bad, frustrated, empty and other negative emotions kick in. Without realising this and becoming consciously aware of it, you might channel this into behvaiours to block out these feelings, such as working more, or other unhealthy behaviours that can lead to addiction such as excessive alcholic, drugs, video games, porn, over-exercise, etc. So take a moment now, and reflect. What are the personal goals you want to achieve in your life? Perhaps this next clip of Seb Terry's realisation of what he actually wanted in life helps to clarify and make sense of the success he has had since pursuing 100 goals to achieve in life to make him happier and smile: How did you decide Seb to make such a big change to start creating a list of a hundred things to do before you die? That will make you smile and be happy then to travel around the world to make this list come true. I mean. You know, wasn't that really out of your comfort zone. And where did, where did that decision come from after drifting for so long in life

Seb Terry: 6:05

No, it was a, this is the crazy thing. It was such a large contrast to the way I'd been living, but it was easiest decision I ever made. And it was purely because in a moment of complete raw authenticity, if you will, I just realized I wasn't happy. And I just thought about it and it dawned on me ever so clearly, like, like, you know, not to try and make this sound dramatic, but at the same time, it kind of is. I just realized for me, at least all I wanted was to be happy. That is it. That was it. And so, yeah, I just made decisions that would allow that to happen. And so it was easy. I mean, it sounds drastic. I pulled myself out of a very normal way of living like left Australia. I said goodbye to friends and family. I. I walked away from a business that had made no money at that point, but went on to make money for other people. I mean just life is so it should be simple. If we had all boil down the thing that we just truly, truly one, and I dare say that being happy is ultimately what we all want. We just want to feel good if we knew how to feel good. And we knew what the steps were to get to that point, we will all do it. And it's easy. It just is. And so I, yeah, I dunno. I want to be able to say, well, no, I'm special and I've worked out a formula on how to be happy. No, I didn't. I just realized certain things I thought I could do to make myself smile more and I pursued them and. The offshoot of that is of course that it's had a big ripple effect, but, you know, in the, in the first instance it was, it was just that.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 7:35

What things do you want to do in life that would make you smile more? How can you prioritise your time to do these things? In how many ways can you incorporate some of these things into your career path? How can you incorporate some of these things into your lifestyle? What do you need to change from where you are now in life to do more of these things you have listed that would make you smile more? Remember, some things are out of your control of course. Going travelling might make you smile, yet if you are in a lockdown like many countries are at the moment including the UK, travel is pretty difficult, right? So whenever you want to do something but you are not able to do that thing that is out of your control, ask yourself the question, for what purpose do I want to do this? E.g. For what purpose do I want to travel? My answer to that question is to connect with people, learn about different cultures, see beautiful scenery, be in nature, etc. Knowing this structure, if I am in a lockdown in my own country right now, in how many ways can I fulfill these purposes of connecting with people, learning about different cultures well I could maybe start an online meet up on Zoom with people from around the world that is a language or culture exchange, or join an existing one. Perhaps you could do an online course in nature photography, so when your lockdown is lifted, you can appreciate nature in a new way. The possibilities are endless to serve a purpose. Sometimes, you might have started out in a company or business, and had a certain set of values that were being met. Over time, perhaps years or even decades in a career or role, your organisation's values have changed, the people around you have changed, and certainly you have changed and so have what's important to you now. Maybe even the external environment and events have made the environment you now work in stressful, toxic and unenjoyable it's not the place or environment you originally signed up for, This is certainly the case in a clip I'm going to share with you now of Max Vishnev what led you to to walk away from wall street. Right, right. Great question. I had this nice job. I was dressed in business casual, I had a good salary, benefits. So I did that for several years and then got transferred to a fancy trading desk in Times Square, which for me was, you know, first time in my life I worked in a skyscraper in the middle of of it all right. And the, the madness that's times square. And I was sitting with these hot shot traders and so I was like the operations manager on a big trading desk and it traded a lot of confusing products that eventually led to the housing crash and the, the global financial crisis. I was making a lot of money at the time and I thought, man, this is cool. But then I also saw what happens once the bubble burst, right? The environment got really toxic and really negative very quickly. There were rounds of layoffs, there were the rumor mill was turning about who's going to get laid off, how the bonuses are basically gone and what bank is going to fail next. So this was 2000 so you know, Lehman brothers collapsed fall of 2008 there was a domino effect. The rest of the 2008 was horrific. My company at the time, Morgan Stanley, we barely survived as an independent bank. We were going to go down to, there's some last minute basically rescue efforts. So we made it, but then I was like, man, I got to get out of here. And the seeds were planted. Like basically that fall with the collapse of Lehman brothers. I was so stressed out at work, my stress level just spiked and I, you know, it was really affecting my quality of life and I was like, I don't want to be here. You know, at the time I was 28 and I was like, I gotta get outta here. You know, what's, what am I doing here? What's the primary driver? Money, right. And the status symbol of working on a trading desk at Morgan Stanley. But at the end of the day, is this something I want to keep doing? And the answer was no. So what is the environment like you are working in now? How has your day-to-day work changed since you started and when you were enjoying work? How have the people changed? In a good way or bad way? Are the reasons you got into the job or career no longer attractive for you or important e.g. the promise of lots of money and fancy offices might now not be so alluring once you've had this already, particularly when you've got used to it. The shiny new objects might not be so shiny anymore. Sometimes your own circumstances change. You might have had kids and starting a family can certainly over time change your priorities and what you are looking for in your life and career, often meaning more balance and perhaps flexibility in work is craved. Patrck Ryder shares in this clip his situation of being in a senior global role for many years, connected 24/7 to his company, and the effect it had on his physical health, his mental health and the knock-on effect it had on his relationship with his wife and kids:

Patrick Ryder: 13:16

if we just look at the section of nearly eight years when I was doing the mobile tech work, when I was based in London, And at the time with my wife and a new baby, as well as a slightly older daughter, And I was commuting, on a daily basis from sorry to London, which at the time was very difficult because of train strikes and various other issues. So it was something like three and a half hours a day, commuting With trains being canceled all the time. You never knew what was coming one day to the next, not a particularly sympathetic manager in London. that person was based much closer to the office and therefore I ended up having to change my working hours. but the stress continued and obviously on top of all that, you know, not getting home so 8:00 PM every night having left at 6:00 AM, and then childcare and kids and all the rest of it. So, That kind of was alleviated we're moving to Hong Kong, which is, a very much more straightforward set up, the pressure's remained very similar if not more. it was at that point after a year in Hong Kong, this is 2017, 2018. It became clear to me and my wife and those around me that this was not the right thing for me anymore. after 22 years of that, corporate life, there was having detrimental effects on me as a person and therefore my family or my relationships, my quality of life. The list goes on the upsides were fading and the downsides were very, very negative and damaging.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 14:56

what were the kind of hardest points about. Corporate life what were the toughest things where you thought, wow, I can do this

Patrick Ryder: 15:04

anymore. I think there's probably three areas, you know, physical, mental, and emotional. I'm sure that resonates with lots of people. So, but for me, it's well documented what the impact of stress can be in from a corporate. Day to day for me physically, I knew something was badly wrong when I ended up losing something like 15 kilos in eight weeks without actually changing my diet at all. And without exercising a great deal. So I was still eating burgers, A lot of Asian, Chinese food, obviously. but losing 15 kilos is a huge amount of weight in a very short space of time. So that was one indicator. I think that got me seriously worried. pure mental stress I've found that impossible to turn off, the global nature of the business, I was running meant that, when Asia closes America opens and you're somewhere in the middle And the nature of the connected business Wells nowadays means that you need to be seen to be available 24 seven response times and measured. There are metrics in place. There are deals that need doing So it's kind of the fair and greed. Perspective in its worst form, not greed from my parts, but greed from my company's part and the business world in general is part it's about making money. Otherwise they'd be charities. but certainly you end up in a state of high anxiety. that you are either missing stuff or that you failed at staff or that the perception of you is that you're not putting your weights and things like that. So that manifested itself certainly physically for me. the second thing was, mentally. the mental impact was very negative. it turned me into a very introverted person, and was the total wrong kind of focus. the third part of things, my relationship, those all suffered. as a result of that is I wasn't the family guide that I should have been, that I wanted to be, that, I could have been. and I think if you put all those three things together over time and you keep grinding it out, then something's going to break. And I felt that it. Treaty dead within me. And the impact on my marriage also was starting to be extremely detrimental as well. Even though my wife is a very sort of a senior executive with a lot of responsibility and pressure. I just simply wasn't getting any kind of fulfillment out of business success and everything else was suffering as a result of that.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 17:46

Sometimes external events out of our control happen which affect us and shake us up so much that we start to question what is really important in life. Prime examples of these external events are a death of a loved one or a painful breakup, the latter being the case for Kim Orlesky, which prompted her to reevaluate her life and successful sales career at American Express in Canada and a moment of realisation in the shower triggered a series of decisions that changed her life dramatically in the space of just 6 weeks:

Kim Orlesky: 18:23

at the time I was doing really well with my career as American express. it was a lovely work from home position and I just got to a point where, I just wasn't sure that this was where I wanted to live my life. I was inspired after a breakup because I was like, Aw, man. I'm like, what else am I going to do with my life? And I'm like, this is really what I thought I was going to do. And I was in the shower the next day after this terrible breakup. And I asked myself, I'm like, what do I want to do? And it was like, almost like this voice came inside my head. It was like, just go travel. And I thought, I'm like, why not? I'm not married. I have kids. I would leave a career and, this wonderful house and everything that I bought, but who cares. a career as a career and you can find more of them and a house is a house and you can find more of that. And, there's only so many days in our lives where we can actually go out and travel. And so I made the decision and all of a sudden everything went, moved incredibly fast. Like lightning speed for the moment I made that decision to the moment. Yeah, I was, I had the house sold and it was on my first leg of my trip was maybe six weeks.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 19:31

Holli Massey, a highly-successful TV and advertising producer from Melbourne, Australia, on paper had it all. But something didn't feel quite right and she started a quest to explore what was the reason for that feeling that kept bugging her:

Holli: 19:49

this career of just working with loads of different companies, loads of different creative people, directors and producers. And, yeah. Keeps me off on this kind of working in advertising, which was fantastic because. I made a fair bit of money out of it, and it's really well paid. but I suppose during that time that I was doing it, there was always something that just didn't feel right. And I used to say to myself, you know, you've got a good job. You earn good money and working with amazing people. Like what's your problem, you know, stop winging, like, you know, you're lucky, you know, all this kind of stuff. So I sort of went into that sort of power play within my mind quite a lot. yeah. And I got to travel, you know, so I got to sometimes because I made enough money, I'd go on travel for a year or something. So I'd have a year traveling. And, and so it was the perks of everything, you know, but. It was just something that just didn't feel right. And it took me a little while to kind of put my finger on was, and I think really ethically, I just felt, I always felt really connected to the people felt really connected to who I was working with. I loved the conversations and I loved everything that was creative about it. But yeah, when someone would ask me what I did for a job, I found it really difficult to tell them that I. Produced TV commercials. I felt like it was. Adding to the problems of the world. I was kind of, you know, the, the consumerism and the, the imbalance in, in life and that sort of paradigm of fear based paradigm that we live in. I just, for whatever reason, I just really kind of carried that with me and it felt really, didn't, it just didn't suit who I was. So. I went on this sort of quest, I suppose, to try and balance that out and, found a project in Kenya, in the developing world, in developing countries. I wanted to con did some travel through those developing countries to find some projects that I could support through the film industry. And, and then that kicked me off into kind of where I am now.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 22:11

I played this next clip on a previous episode called Big Decision No Regrets, and want to play it again from Vimala Seshadri, about feeling empty and unfulfilled even when on the surface everyone else sees you are financially successful, have great hobbies, travel, etc, just like Holli shared too. Vimala's approach to finding out why she was feeling so empty and unfulfilled was to sit with herself in silence for 5 whole days:

Vimala Seshadri: 22:41

So, at that point in my life, I was, working in a very, very, senior level. Job. And I was only 28 and I really enjoy the job. I was traveling. I was going first class. I had, financially I was extremely secure. But I would come home every day and feel like, okay, what's next? And that has been happening for a few months. And I'm scared a lot of pressure for me from my parents to consider marriage. And it just did not seem right for me. And I didn't know why. And I was in there like just limbo phase. And I came back. I remember very clearly I came back from horseback riding and. Just said, why am I doing this? And I started crying and it led to three days of just nonstop. I just need to know why I'm on this earth. And that deep sense of purpose and I needed to know. And so I actually stepped out of my world and went into prayer and just, just sat with myself in the woods of Michigan and just sat there and decided I was going to figure this out. I had a lot of supports around me, but I was silent for five days. And just when within, and the only thing that I can, you can think about that only thing that really came up visually and even auditorily at that point was work with kids. Hmm, and I wasn't working with kids at all. So it was a big surprise for me.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 24:16

Right. So, I mean, what was obviously, but you burst into tears, you, you were upset about something and that is what prompted you to reflect from a thing. What do you think, was it about either your life or your career that made you so upset? Was there certain aspects that, you know, just weren't one sitting with you? Well, what was it in particular?

Vimala Seshadri: 24:41

I think, I just felt like I felt empty. I was, I was like a robot. I was just going to work doing my thing, doing it. Well, it wasn't about not being successful at the time I was doing it well, but it wasn't fulfilling. So I fulfilled it with, you know, going shopping, you know, horseback riding. And I was, going out with friends, but, you know, The next step. Everybody told me it was, well, once you get married, then this will all just kind of resolve itself. And I'm like, I don't want to, I don't know if that was right for me, it didn't feel right for me at the time, but that real sense of what, you know, what's the, what's the big deal is I find if I do this work or if I don't do this work, it's really not gonna make an impact in the world. And I think that's when I really kind of felt miserable that I could actually live on this planet and die and never really make a difference or never really know if this is, this is what I'm supposed to do for the rest of my life. Really know it in my heart. there was a book, I think, the death of Ivan Ilitch, and at the end of the book, he says, he goes. What if, you know, I didn't do what I was supposed to do while I was here. And that those kinds of thoughts kept coming to me again and again, saying, is this, this, this all life is. And everyone around me seems happy in going to work. You know, having that, that life, it just, something just didn't sit right with me. Right. And yeah. Right before I had this job, I was working in the university where I had students and I had patients. And I think that was very purposeful for me. Right.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 26:26

Sometimes looking back on your career or life and remembering when you were most happy, when work or certain activities you did were fulfilling and meant something to you, can be incredible clues to figuring out how to renavigate your life or career to be incorporating more of these elements into your life now. Sitting in silence for five days could be one way of uncovering what a persistent negative feeling is trying to tell you a message from your unconscious to do something different. Holli found her insights to change and actually quit her job after an ayahuasca ceremony and on returning to film an advertisement for a global brand in the slums of India, her inner conflicts were brought past her threshold and she left her job after finishing that project, as she had the realisation that her work brought an ethical misalignment that she was no longer prepared to put up with

Holli: 27:24

I drove down to this ceremony on Friday. I got back on the Monday and during the ceremony, it was just, yeah, quite a, I was very nervous about it cause I'd heard all different things. and during the ceremony, it was probably one of the most nurturing experiences of my life. But the most, the biggest kind of slap in the face I probably had ever had in my life as well. I found out what my issue was. I wouldn't know what the very clear intention and, came out with a very, went in with a certain perspective on life and came out with. Obviously the same person it's like Dave, but I saw everything very differently. so I, yeah, I kind of, I got on, I came home, I got on a plane the next day and I flew to India. And after that experience, and obviously it takes you into a whole other realm. I mean, it's like, you're not in this world. And I went to India and we went out to the location of where we were filming, which was a slum in Mumbai. And it was that moment. I still remember it walking, getting out of the car, just coming out of this Iowasca experience with this whole kind of new perception of going okay. I know what my problem is. I'm not listening to myself. I'm not loving myself. I'm not honoring who I am as a person and walking into the slum and, standing there just seeing all these amazing, beautiful people. and that was my moment where I was like, I can't do this. I can't, I just can't do this. I can't be this person anymore. I want to work with these people. I want to work for the better good of these people. I don't want to walk in here with a brand and molting me and be in dollar brand in this slum to sell what it was we were selling now. I don't directly sell that stuff, but I. You know, it's not like the clients, my responsibility or anything like that, but just the very act of me being there and being a part of that team and, you know, producing that commercial, just, it just made me go that's it. That's it. I can't do this. And that was my moment. So it got through job and, it was great. And, I came back to Melbourne and, We, my business partner and I have, weren't seeing eye to eye really very much. Maybe that it's something to do with it. I don't know. I mean, we'd worked a hell. We'd worked a lot that year. It was just, we went, you know, we're at burnout mode really, and just can't do this anymore. So yeah. I left. I left. And then eight weeks later, my husband and my kids and I were on a plane and we came to Ireland and a whole lot has changed. So every month, every week, every week, every month, every year, has just been a building block of getting Being who I am and being real with what I do. And. never, ever, ever looking back.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 30:55

it's this concept of identity that has always fascinated me. In fact, much of the work I've been involved in in neuro linguisitc programming and other coaching methodologies centres around what makes up one's identity. A helpful framework I've found to explore this and other key steps on a ladder in career and life change and correcting internal misalignments and inner conflicts is called'The Neurological Levels of Change', a model refined by NLP developer Robert Dilts. I may explore the usefulness of this model in career change in a future episode, but in the meantime, I will include links in the show notes that listeners can use to start to understand and use this concept. The premise is that we have 6 different levels we are operating on at any one time. When we have a misalignment at one of these levels, it is often when we make a change at the level above that inner conflicts can be sometimes instantly resolved. The levels start at environment, then behaviour, then skills or capabilities, then values, then identity and the highest level is purpose. So earlier in the episode I spoke about when there is a conflict at the environment level such as a national lockdown, this restricts being able to do a love of travel which is also a conflict at the values level if someone values adventure. Recognising the purpose of travel, to connect with people, be in nature, etc, we can examine each level below purpose and assess what changes we can make here to make improvements to how we feel inside, even when there are things going out at the environment level that are out of our control. Often with careers, when someone wants a career change, there is a conflict at their identity level, and often this is realised much later on in being unhappy for a while, as was the case for Malia Griggs who took over a year off work due to extreme burnout, and during this time off made these extremely valuable realisations for herself and I hope also, you the listener: you raised quite an interesting point about, you, you're not your job, you're not your job. I speak to quite a few people who, particularly when they're in transition in between jobs, some people that they feel lost when they're not in a job. And, I spoke to a friend who's. He was sitting at home, he was on gardening leave, in transition. And he just didn't know what to do. He's I don't know what to do with gardening leave is when you wait, when you're in between two jobs and your period in between and in Europe at school.

Malia Griggs: 33:51

yeah.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 33:54

And, people, don't, some people don't know who they are, like when they're not in a job. it's like an identity issue. What, how, who were you when you were in that job and who are you now?

Malia Griggs: 34:06

Yeah, I thought of myself as there being like a work Malia and then just home Malia. And what I, especially when I was promoted, I remember thinking I can't command a team where everyone. I look younger than everyone, I'm tech, I'm actually older, but so I went out and I remember I bought clothing that I felt made me look more like a boss. and I came to work and some of my coworkers made fun of me for a while, but then they got used to it. I had, I bought a pair of heels that I put under my desk and I bought just like fancier clothing than the flannel shirts I was wearing to work with my, just my jeans. and that kind of helped me. Take on this mindset, to put on that costume. But then I think that costume extended beyond just being a costume to a degree. so I felt like I was acting away. I mean, there are elements of my humor that were there and, I like injecting humor and, into my candor work, but, I just, I felt like the goop, the Greeley, the true, the truly goofy essence of myself was gone. the things that I don't know that made me creative were gone. I used to love it writing and I do love writing, but I used to really love writing and then photography and, painting and drawing and acting. And I was into improv, for a bit. And I wanted to do stand up and all of these things, I felt like I didn't have time to do because I was, my job was just. Taking up so much of my energy, the time that, a lot of nights I had to be home, if there was a debate or any sort of political event or for is the Oscars or which, again, this is part of, par for course, but then when you add on the insanity of having mass shootings all the time, it's just becomes, and then the impeachment, it's just a lot, it's a lot for any journalist and it's a lot for someone who's covering social media. And then on top of that social media is more than it sounds. yeah, they're the, I think the essential parts of me were the things that I loved when I was a little younger and then couldn't didn't have any space for it. so I guess, yeah. Now I have more time. I have lots of time for that.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 36:18

It's often when we revisit what makes us happy, purposeful, passionate from earlier in our lives that we start to uncover a sense of who we really are The only way to really know who we really are though and prove the theory is to test things out. And it's this testing that Patrick Ryder did when he took a year off all work to figure things out. He volunteered in teaching and following his curiosity, got feedback from family, friends, people in the industry he was testing getting into for him teachers which proved an invaluable use of time in proving it was the right new path for him:

Patrick Ryder: 36:59

Happiness is very hard to measure, but is much more visible to me anyway. that's a positive purpose. helping people to progress and grow. And I keep using that word progression, but it is super important. that's kind of how that manifested itself. and it was blatantly clear that I needed to do something totally different. So I knew that I'd always liked teaching and coaching. and my son was at a preschool in Hong Kong. My daughter was a, the British international school in Hong Kong and I decided to go and do some volunteering. so at least I'd be doing something constructive. Whilst I figured out whatever the plan was going to be for me. and so I started volunteering both with the three year olds and the eight, nine, 10 year olds, and absolutely loved it and, really got into it and ended up doing everything from pirate dress up days to sensory play days being covered in lasagna. Taking three year olds out in the mountains in Hong Kong and how to build stuff with rocks to teaching my set those aside, the older class about photography and stuff like that, which I really love. And just organizing school fairs, I'm much more good for the soul stuff than just churning out metrics and sales reports on Salesforce. like man, you know, I can be out. Building a skate, ramble, something, you know, listening to a mix or reading a book or anything, you know? So I thought began to crystallize the idea of teaching in my mind. And that's really where I guess the testing stage came in and by testing, I mean, putting this idea, allowing myself to be vulnerable and opening up and saying to select friends, family members, look, This is where I am. This is the idea I have. What do you think? And getting their feedback and really doing a lot of active listening to that feedback. my mother-in-law has been a headmistress at a primary school in Botswana for 30 odd years. A lot of our family friends are my teachers. For my primary school and secondary school still, and a lot of friends are actually teachers teaching assistants in the education system. And the feedback from them was resoundingly. You know, we think you'd make a great teacher. We can see that you've got the right kind of skills and nature and you're that type of person so that, you know, I didn't need the validation, but it was nice to get it. you need a sounding board So as a litmus test, that crystallized it for me. And it was at that point that I started to put together one of the most important kind of thing, ethos aspects that I live by, which my wife kind of taught me as well as various other people. I've met along the way, which is to have a plan

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 39:50

natasha Stanley emphasises this point about following your curiosity, and not just making a list of things you are interested in, but actually jumping into trying things out, testing out new activities, business ideas, career paths through conversations, mini shift projects perhaps at the weekend or when you have time off, and getting a sense of if it is really for you.

Natasha Stanley: 40:15

why can't I just find my thing and master it and do it really well. And what I discovered was actually. If I, Elizabeth Gilbert talks about following your curiosity. And if I just do that, if I go with the things that are interesting, me, immerse myself in it, up to the point that I need to and want to, and find ways to share that with people that's. Really, it's not just enough for me. It fills me up. I don't get bored. I don't reach the point where, I'm doing the machine repeating itself kind of thing. And some people love that. Some people love the detail, keeping the machine running, all of that kind of jazz for me. It's just like that shiny. I'm going to go and dive into that. Who wants to come with me? And along the way, if I keep asking myself, like, why is this important? What do people need in relation to this thing that interests me? There is always an opportunity to make a living from it one way or another. everything that I do. Right now does fall under that kind of umbrella conversation around helping people do things they never thought were possible. I see it every day in my work with career shifters, people just look what just happened. Look what I just did saying we lack or yoga. the first time somebody flies on someone else's feet that look on their face is what I live for. with this is for you. I teach people the art and science of meaningful human connection. I have people walking out of workshops thing. Like I never thought that I could go that deep with somebody that quickly and not feel scared or vulnerable or uncomfortable, falls under that umbrella. But the more that I go through, so the more I realize. That kind of happens by accident. If I just trust the stuff that I'm interested in and I manage eyes by when I look backwards, Steve jobs in his commencement speech talks about, you can only join the dots, looking backwards. When I look backwards, I see that theme, but I'm not like I'm going to go out and help people do things that they never thought were possible. It's really just me trusting my gut saying, Hey, that looks cool. Who wants to come with me? And that's not the case for everybody. some people have a very different approach, a different mindset, different set of needs than I do, but there's something about, we work with an idea called the fulfillment sweet spot. Which is like a Venn diagram of three cars questions. And we believe that your fulfilling work lies at the intersection of those trends, the questions. So the first one is, what energizes me. So not what am I passionate about? Not what's my purpose. Not even what do I love, but what energizes me? Yeah, wake up in the morning and you're like, Oh God, I just, I can't today. And then there's something that you do. And no matter how tired you were, when you started, you come out buzzing and it might be good thing that you're doing, it might be the people that you're around. It might be the environment. Yeah. And it's the whole picture, but finding some what energizes you finding something that you're good at or that you could get good at? and then what will the world pay for? So for me, I start with the, what energizes me part, cause I've been in jobs where I was good at it and I got paid for it and I just wanted to stick a fork in my eye every morning. So I start with what energizes me. I'm like, Oh, this feels buzzy. I'm going to follow that. I do a little bit of it. Oh, I could get good at this, or, Oh, I actually am quite good at this. And then, okay. So what's the problem I can solve using this. What will the world pay for? and that's the way round that I've found gets results most quickly. But the key of all of that is to start doing it as quickly as possible.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 44:09

We examined some really practical ways of discovering what energises you and what drains your energy, in taking certain psychometric assessments, particularly ones backed by lots of science and data such as Strengths Profile which I took and discussed with a great coach who took me through my assessment, Therese Toohey:

Therese Toohey: 44:30

The thing I really love about it is, you might've mentioned four different concepts, which kind of show how much you're becoming energized versus how much you're being drained of energy. So there's realized strengths, unrealized, strengths, which are things that. Gave you energy. They give you energy points. If you were, and then learn behaviors and weaknesses or things that you might Excel at and your boss might say, wow, you're one of the top performers. It does, but it doesn't light you up inside. It actually takes energy away from you and an every day eats away to the point that you don't want to do it. or you want to do it less than that. and that is not a ground for. moving towards success and growth. it's actually quite the opposite, even though, there's an illusion of you being very skilled and a top performer. I had an example of that When I was working in the public service straight like properly. I was part of the team that was doing the state of the service report, which is a huge compendium of where they're up to in terms of all sorts of things. Writing is not one of my strengths. I can write, I've done it masters. I know how to deal with it. I can do it. I'm reasonably good at it, but it just doesn't give me energy. So I did the job, I got it done. They really loved the work that I did. And they said to me, the year turned over to the next year and they came back to the list. Listen, you did such a good job last year. We want you to do this again. I just wanted to call up in the fetal position under the desk. I could do it, but he just didn't light me up. And I was diminishing the more I had to do his own. Really wasn't doing the things that I loved, which I could be more engaged with and more productive because I got energy from them because they mattered. So yeah, completely one Oh one example of you've got a strength, but no energy from it.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 46:08

the other big concept that I wanted to touch on in this episode in particular and develop further is the issue of your sense of identity in your career and changing careers. I explored this further with world-reknowned coach Jamie Smart, who also explain that realising that none of what going on in your job, career or world outside is not causing you stress or other negative emotions, but that all of that is created within you it's an internal experience. And once you realise that, it can be immensely freeing to focus your energises and change your attitude for new levels of happiness. Why do you think then that, people that have changing career? they're not happy in that job or in that business. Why do you think they. Struggle to find a role or an identity that makes them happy to see them and is who they are in a sense.

Jamie Smart: 47:14

Well, I, I dunno. I mean, some people do some people don't, but I think there are a bunch of reasons. one reason is a lot of times when someone's got a job that they're good at, for instance, they've got a bunch of track record with it and they're good at it. And so they get kudos for it and they get paid for it and all that sort of stuff. And then they got this thing that they're inspired to do, and they got to start from scratch with that and be not very good at that's what I had to do when I decided I was going to be a coach and a trainer. I had to be really sure. I wasn't very good at it when I started out. Whereas my job, I was good at. I got well paid for when I first started coaching, I could hardly get paid anything. Cause I wasn't very good at it. I had to develop my skills and masters. So there's that like people like stuff that they're good at and that they're familiar with and that they already know how to do. But I think, the word you use the identity people often they've got a lot of identity in a certain role, that sort of thing. and the idea, and I remember reading, I don't know how true it is, but, Reading that some massive percentage of guys guys die within two years of retiring from their job. Cause all this stuff about identity and purpose and that sort of thing is wrapped up in it. And I'm like, man, I had there never want to retire or I know what I want to make sure I don't have too much identity associated with that stuff. But I think, a lot of times people associate or work role with who they are and what their value to society is. But also just the thing of familiar, I've worked with lots and lots of people around. A career change. And a lot of times it's fear of making a mistake, fear of criticism, fear of not being good enough, all that sort of stuff. And you don't want one of the big ones is math. Fear that they're not going to be okay if things go wrong, like you, you and I both know massive numbers of businesses fail within the first year of starting and massive numbers fail within the first five years. So we know that if you want to go and do your own thing, that's a relatively high risk venture. And if you want to start a new job, a new in a new industry or a new type of career, while that has a certain amount of risks associated. People, people don't like, having to let go of their perceptions of security. Cause a lot of people believe their security comes from their job or their role or their perception in the eyes of others, that kind of thing. So that's my best guess at it.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 49:47

so how then would you be confident in making it as in a big life decision, like career change? Cause you're

Jamie Smart: 49:56

saying. certainly when I work with people around where we start is helping people get clear on two things. One we've already talked about, which is who they really are. And the other is where their experience comes from. I give you an example, we're recording this in the middle of lockdown and COVID 2020 and. Lots of people. If you'd asked them in a, I don't know, November or December of last year, he said, what, how's 2020 looking to you. They would have said, Oh yeah, I've got a real sense of certainty and confidence about what 2020 holds and that sort of thing. And then if you'd ask them four months later, they'd be, I feel very insecure and very uncertain. We're actually closer to reality now than we were four months ago. what we have now is the end of an illusion. We have the illusion back in late twenties, 19 when they were certain that things were going to go a certain way in 2020, it's an illusion. It was never going to be the case. This was already in the cards. so we're actually closer to reality. if one of the things that. No, we can all do with getting better at is becoming connoisseurs of reality rather than our own illusions. Remember, when I, back when I was still, I was when I was still contracting, actually, so this is like 1999. And so as day rate contractor on a contract in this company and the HR, because I was involved in a mission critical project, they decided it would make more sense if they could get me in as an employee. And they, so they offered me a package, very attractive package, director level, salary, car, all this sort of stuff. I said, no things. I'm, I prefer to stick with things as they are for, to have a contract and the freedom and, income that's associated with that. And the HR director, he was shocked. He said, well, what about jobs? Security? I said, well, there's no such thing as job security, you know, as well as I do, you've you've made people redundant as part of your role. They thought they had job security, but they didn't. There's no such thing as job security. That's an illusion, it's an illusion. And he got really flustered. He said, what would happen if we all thought that way? It's wow, I don't know. it's the truth. It's the truth that the feeling of security. Can only an always come from within that's the only place that has ever come from every feeling of security you've ever experienced has being generated from within your psychological and spiritual properties. Every feeling of peace and wellbeing has been generated the same way, every experience of love and peace and connection. Came from within same, with every experience of, anxiety and worry and all that stuff, too. It comes from the inside out it's created from within, it seems like it's coming from there. The stress seems like it's coming from, the email or the traffic or whatever it might be. but it's being generated from within a hundred percent of the time. No exceptions. And so that's worth no. And if you're wanting to embark on a new venture, because it turns out there's a lot of things, but you don't need to concern yourself with once you realize that, and that frees you to focus on the things that it is worth concerning yourself with a w and that it is worth paying attention to.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 53:41

My recent guest Jeremy Lipkowitz reflected on this very point to discuss how our reality is created from within in this clip and gives practical ways we can start to change our attitude and reality through mindfulness and meditation:

Jeremy Lipkowitz: 54:00

one of the reasons that those silent retreats are so powerful is you just see how powerful the mind is in terms of creating your reality. you can literally be doing nothing, but sitting in a room having a cup of tea and you can either be in a state of complete hell because of what's going on in your mind or complete bliss, based on how you're relating to your experience. And it's all in your mind. it's so much of the drama that we experience is created by ourselves, created by having expectations about where we should be, or shouldn't be, or, all these things. It's so great to be, to have the time to go on a retreat like that, but you're right. That most people don't have the space. most people don't have the time and the space to go on a retreat like that. There's still so much you can do to start to become aware of these things. So developing a consistent meditation practice, particularly, I'm a huge fan of mindfulness, which is this there's very bare open. Awareness of what's happening. There's no goal to mindfulness. It's really about observing what's happening, particularly inside your experience. So what's going on in your body. What's going on in your mind. And this observation, you start to see what's happening in your life. You start to see the way you might be talking to yourself the way you might be beating yourself up, high performers. So many of us are. Really vicious, inner critics, right? We're so nasty toward ourselves. when you start to see that, you see how violent you are to yourself, you just naturally start to do less of it, but it requires seeing it first. So that's one thing is, having a consistent, meditation practice or reflection practice, or self-awareness practice of some sort. The other big thing that I like to offer it to the people that I work with or in some of the workshops I do is connecting with people that you really admire from that sense of how they're living their life. And for me, this was really important early on is seeing people that were living really good lives. They were really fulfilled from within, and you could see it on their face, the way that they live. It wasn't about how successful they were. They had this kind of inner radiance to them and reading about those people. for me, I think of, people like the Dalai Lama or, tick, not Han or, whoever you want to think of people that have that inner glow is really powerful because then you start to. your vision of reality starts to crumble. if you keep thinking, Oh, I'll only be happy if I can be a millionaire and have enough money to retire and go sit on a beach and drink a margarita and you see those people and that they're miserable. And then you see someone who doesn't own anything except for a pair of robes and a begging bowl. And they're filled with happiness and contentment. You start to realize Oh, okay. Maybe I'm not doing things right. Maybe I'm focused on the wrong things here.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 57:09

This concept of comparing your identity when you are unhappy in your life and career to when you are burning from within, living life with passion, purpose and balance is my final point I wanted to highlight in this episode. We go back to episode 1 where Seb Terry unpacks his valuable thoughts on this and the effect this has had on the results in his life: When you compare yourself to when you were struggling and drifting in life. What was the biggest difference between you as a person, your identity and your purpose, to how you are now

Seb Terry: 57:49

I think I've just learned to be me. I just think we're told to be so many different things from a very young age, by our parents, by culture, by society, by business, by peer pressure, generational trends and all those things. And it's, uh, it's very easy and it's forgivable as well. It's to see people as I was just going. Okay, cool. And you sort of subscribe to all the things and that you don't allow that to influence you and you end up being a product of society. But I think in that, the risk is that you completely lose yourself. And that's what I had. I didn't even found myself. So I was just drifting. I wasn't doing a thing. When I allowed myself permission, which is a really important word you give. A lot of people ask"How are you able to do what you do? Is it because you're wealthy? Or is it cause you're lucky or brave or like", no, no, no, no, no. I just gave myself permission. To be happy. And I chose to pursue that anyway. retrospectively I've just learned that the 100 Things list was simply a vehicle for me to. Get to know who I was better. And I dare say the secret to living a happy life in my opinion, a life where on your final day on earth, you can look back and go. I wouldn't change a thing is if you were able to a) figure out who you are, which in itself is a journey and it's always changing by the way. And b) just learn to be that person. Just unapologetically, be that in every aspect, whether it's business, whether it's personal, whether you're living in the city, whether you're living in an ashram in India, you know, I I'm really fortunate. I could speak to a lot of people as you have done, you know, doing, doing this series and this book and it's, um, Yeah. I just keep finding the commonality between the people who sleep well at night, the people who were deemed themselves successful in, you know, in the way that they would be it financial or personal or whatever, they're all just being themselves. And I think I know who I am at this stage of my life, at least, and I didn't at the beginning.

Matt Garrow-Fisher: 59:46

I hope you enjoyed this episode of reflections from key themes around career and life change from my previous guests around realising when other people knew they needed to change careers or lifestyles, through to discussing different ways to find out what those empty, negative persistent feelings mean including meditation, ayahuasca ceremonies and something I didn't cover but has been brough up by many guests which is journalling out your thoughts, and also speaking to other people including friends or coaches. We also discussed the concept of identity conflicts during career changes, how to start to resolve these inner conflicts, following your curiosity and testing things out to explore new paths through to making decisions that lead to happiness rather than other previous objectives such as making more money or getting a promotion. Discovering who you really are is a long process, psychometric tests, self reflection and coaching are ways to start to uncover this key question. And in future episodes we will explore more ways on how to live a life true to yourself, one of the top 5 regrets of the dying uncovered by Bronnie Ware. As always, please connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook and share your reflections on this Matt Garrow-Fisher I'm the only one in the world. You can also check out my 12-week career fulfillment program on burnfromwithin.com/fulfillingcareer where I take you through a set of exercises, tools and techniques while really listening to you so you can uncover who you really are, your values, your strengths and explore potentially new career and life paths with my support. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast, tell friends who would benefit from this. And Until next time, live with passion, purpose and balance, and Burn From Within.