The Arc Experience Podcast
The Present and Future of Special Education: The Importance of Optimism
In this episode we hear from one of Wisconsin’s leading experts in best practices in special education and transition supports for student with disabilities. Dr. Nancy Molfenter is currently an Assistant Director of Student Services in Wisconsin’s 2nd largest school district as well as a special education professor at the University of Wisconsin. Nancy is someone who is not afraid to roll up her sleeves! She has more than 20 years of experience working as as a special educator, transition coordinator, and a leader in statewide and national organizations supporting inclusion and employment first. She is passionate about supporting all students with disabilities to reach their potential.
Hear what Nancy to say about three key ways to close the achievement gap for students with disabilities, the biggest challenges for school districts and how parents and IEP teams can find common ground, even when there are disagreements.
In this episode we hear from one of Wisconsin’s leading experts in best practices in special education and transition supports for student with disabilities. Dr. Nancy Molfenter is currently an Assistant Director of Student Services in Wisconsin’s 2nd largest school district as well as a special education professor at the University of Wisconsin. Nancy is someone who is not afraid to roll up her sleeves! She has more than 20 years of experience working as as a special educator, transition coordinator, and a leader in statewide and national organizations supporting inclusion and employment first. She is passionate about supporting all students with disabilities to reach their potential.
Hear what Nancy to say about three key ways to close the achievement gap for students with disabilities, the biggest challenges for school districts and how parents and IEP teams can find common ground, even when there are disagreements.
Welcome to the arc experience, featuring the stories of self advocates with disabilities and their families from around Wisconsin. Be inspired. Take action. And now for today's episode,
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the arc experience podcast. I'm your host Lisa Pew with the arc Wisconsin. And you know that here in this podcast, we strive to bring you the best. So today, Dr. Nancy multicenter is our guest. She is one of Wisconsin's leading experts in best practices in special education and transition supports for students with disabilities. She is currently an assistant director of student services in Wisconsin, second largest school district, while also continuing her work as a special education professor at the university of Wisconsin. Nancy is someone who is not afraid to roll up her sleeves. She has more than 20 years of experience working as a special educator transition coordinator and a leader in statewide and national organizations supporting inclusion and employment. First, she is passionate about supporting all students with disabilities to reach their potential. What an introduction, Nancy. We're so glad to have you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yes. That, that is quite an introduction. It's yeah, thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. And I hope I can live up to the hype.
Speaker 2:We are honored to have your expertise, you know, special education and transition supports for students with disabilities, such an important topic, um, for people who care about disability issues, you know, I'm sure that over those 20 years of your experience, I'm sure you've seen a range of changes arrange in quality and the special education field. Um, I was following an article you're recently quoted in saying that in the Madison metropolitan school district, where you work, the impact of insufficient funding for students with disabilities is palpable. What, what did you mean by that? And what are you seeing these days?
Speaker 3:So we have, and this has always been the case since I've been in the field, you know, students with a very wide range of needs service needs. And so our challenge in, in, in our, in the Madison school district and in any school district is always making sure that we dedicate the resources where those are needed and, and it shifts and, and a school district like Madison has many schools, smaller school districts, um, sometimes have fewer buildings, but still needs that are consistently changing from year to year for, for their students. And so we have a funding formula and that works, um, reasonably well, um, some of the time, but some of the time we have to go outside of that funding formula and think about, well, what other resources do we have? What can we really do to support the student to be included with their peers and how can we make that work for this particular student and their family, um, and the school. And so in those cases, the school district, what I see is that a school district like Madison, that's very large and other large school districts, um, have more flexibility, um, and smaller school districts may have less. And so that's something that I saw when I was working at the department of public instruction. Um, but even in Madison, we really have to be consistently thinking about, about how to do that. And I think with more funding and, and maybe tech to ensure that we kind of have, I think that what we'd like to do in the field and in certainly in our school district is have resources in place. So that we're ready for any shifts that come along rather than kind of chasing the shifts to meet students' needs, being prepared would be a better place to be. So in terms of additional funding, that's, I would think, you know, let's get ahead and be prepared for what student needs may come up and arise, because we always know that that's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Sure. And I'm sure, you know, what, as we're talking right now, you've probably been following the state budget and there's a lot of people think that there isn't enough funding for special education statewide. Um, do you, I mean, clearly you think funding is a major challenge for school districts in Wisconsin. Are there other kind of challenges that you're identifying currently for students with disabilities?
Speaker 3:So no surprise to anyone listening to this podcast, but the current great challenge facing the Madison school district. And I believe all others, not only in Wisconsin is that we've had a year plus of students, not all being in person full time. And two, you know, nobody could have predicted or prevented the fact that we needed to have a closure in order to reduce the spread of COVID-19. And then this year during the school year, large school districts have had to really balance health and safety with how, how much time students spend in person in our school district. We just recently had all grades return and even that is not full time for all students. And so, and some families and students have chosen to remain virtual for their safety. We completely understand that, but what it means is that special education service delivery has not happened in the same way over the past 12 to 14 months for many students that it typically would have. And that also means that some students did not make the expected progress towards the general education curriculum standards or toward their annual IEP goals. And so we are in the process of setting up additional services for many students with special education needs. And so our challenge is how do we provide those additional services in a way that helps students to get back to the progress that they should have made without the pandemic and COVID-19 and virtual services happening. And one of our great challenges with that is that it's very hard to provide all of those additional services in inclusive settings, because we're looking at afterschool time and summer time. And so that's, that's been a really difficult thing for me personally, as I help plan for our high schools in Madison to provide additional services that some of them are going to be in more segregated settings than we want. And, and that's, it's really hard, but trying to help students catch up basically is the bottom line challenged.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. I know you are a passionate advocate for inclusion, so I'm sure that's difficult and I'm sure staffing challenges as well, plan to current challenges for school districts. I'm guessing.
Speaker 3:Yes. Well, I can tell you that here in Madison, we are offering some incentives, additional pay for staff to provide those services over the summer for students. And so that's, that is something that we are definitely spending some resources to, to put in place.
Speaker 2:Well, thank goodness you work at the university and are training up young, special education teachers. We need more of those for sure.
Speaker 3:One of my very favorite things to do. Yes.
Speaker 2:I know you mentioned, um, students, um, kind of falling behind, or maybe not making progress in the last year, but that, that really isn't new news. When we look at the achievement gaps for students with disabilities, we really, and you worked previously at the department of public instruction. We don't seem to be making kind of a meaningful progress in closing that achievement gap, like, um, and maybe you have a different opinion on that, but I'm curious, like what do you think really needs to change in order to begin closing that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure. So I'm going to start off my answer, circling back to our discussion about increasing inclusive opportunities for students with disabilities that research tells us, um, and my personal experience tells me and my many of my colleagues feel the same and have seen the same that if we can provide inclusive opportunities from an early age and all the way through high school for students to be in general education classes, alongside their peers who don't have disabilities, students get exposed to all the same content. Students can have annual IEP goals that align with the general education standards and students can learn from their peers, those social and emotional skills that we also know are so critical to outcomes and to succeeding in school and beyond school in employment and life. And so I, you know, I, I am just a firm believer, as you said in continuing to think about how do we have our students with disabilities regardless of the intensity of their support needs. How do we have them side-by-side with their peers in general education classes all the way through now, a bit of a more pragmatic topic that I know the Madison school district is tackling in earnest at this point is reading achievement for students by the time they leave third grade. So another very evidence-based practice and topic is that we know that if the student leaves third grade well behind grade level, in terms of reading ability that that impacts their outcomes in the end and as educators, no one would argue that that would be the case. We, we do need to always be considering assistive technology options for students who have intellectual intellectual disabilities and other potential barriers to becoming independent readers. But the majority of our students should be leaving third grade at or above grade level in terms of their reading fluency and their comprehension skills. And so that's just, uh, something that we need to tackle and I believe is a universal need to tackle because that allows students then to remain included through their years, if they are able to participate in the learning activities and have access to the content verbally, as well as in writing and in other formats, one more piece that goes hand in hand with inclusion and reading achievement, math achievement is important too. So I don't want to discount that, but we, we in the education field, we know a lot about universal design for learning. We know a lot about scaffolded or tiered interventions, having interventions that are universal for the whole school, having interventions that are a bit more intensive for students who need those and then very intensive for a smaller number of students. So we know what to do, but we don't always get the work done. So I think to continue to focus on known evidence-based practices of inclusion, universal design for learning, and the three tiered intervention process are things that we just need to continue to focus on. And we need to remember in education, this is a hard thing about education. We never really have it done because you can have a school that's absolutely thriving and achievement outcomes are very positive for students with disabilities. And, um, you know, two years later, if there's turnover or things change that can go away without a constant kind of effort and focus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are, that's really good insight on the achievement gap and areas to focus. I think don't, you see, you know, in your statewide work, a lot of schools do struggle with, um, inclusion and understanding how to do it and how to do it well. And, um, I know that at the department of public instruction, they've been trying to provide that sort of technical assistance to districts, but that seems to be a continued challenge,
Speaker 3:Right? Well, it never, we're never really done. And I think that having that mindset is critical. I just think for those of us who are leaders in the state leaders in districts and, and even for all of our teachers, general education teachers as well, principals, you know, everyone who works with, with students, um, it's the students, of course who have special education services are general education students first. So we have to remember that everyone in a school building and school district is involved in the process and we just have to have the mindset that we're, we really are never done and that a student may have a fantastic year. Um, and then the following year might not be as, as good. So we can't say, Oh, that student is great. Oh, you know, they're just going to keep, keep coasting along. Um, and same thing for a school, same thing for a grade level. Like we, we just, our work is never done and that's how it's supposed to be. We have to continue to circle back on, okay, what's working here, what's not working here and be good problem solvers and maintain that mindset of, you know, what worked last year may not work this year. That's okay. We try something new back
Speaker 2:To the drawing board. Continuous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Um, going back to funding a little bit, you know, I mentioned that the legislature is debating the state budget and that budget had included some pretty large increases for special education. I'm wondering in terms of, you know, some of those achievement gap areas that you just talked about, like where, how would you invest that money? Like what, how do you see it benefiting students if you were able to get an increase?
Speaker 3:Sure. So I, I do, I think we would want to look at staffing patterns. So I do believe that, um, more, more people, more staff, more teachers, more paraprofessionals, isn't always the answer, but I think we would want to look at staffing patterns. We would want to look at pay scales. Um, you know, w we're I think all school districts are continuously looking at pay scales and what is going to attract the very best people to the field and to stay with the district and to stay at schools with our students and build those positive relationships over time with families and students. Um, and then I also think that investing in communication strategies, which goes hand in hand with professional development for teachers and other staff, how are we messaging out? How are we creating materials that are going to be the most helpful, so that teachers do understand how do I meaningfully include students with very intensive support needs in classes? How do I support that? How do I support teachers to get students involved in learning activities? Um, you know, I no surprise to you or probably any of your listeners, but it's really not a positive outcome for students or positive experience for students if they're in a classroom, but they're not involved in the learning activities. So that's the, the, we want to dig deeper in terms of the level of professional development around the tiered interventions and universal design for learning, but also how to modify materials. We really want to, I think get down to the really basics of like the, how tos, how do we make this happen? And I think that investing some resources in whether it be expert trainers, whether it be development of materials, um, those are the pieces that I would want to take a look at.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm listening to you as a parent, as a parent of a student, a former student with a disability she's now out of the public schools. And, um, I'm sure that what you're saying is like music to the ears of a lot of parents, because you know, a lot of times parents struggle with their relationship with the school district. I'm sure you've seen that throughout your career, um, when they feel their child's needs, aren't being met, um, it often causes great difficulties. I'm wondering what your advice is to parents about their relationship with the school.
Speaker 4:Aye,
Speaker 3:Have regular conversations with teachers and school staff about this topic, not from the parents side, but from the school staff side. But I think that the advice is the same and, and advice as a strong word. I'll just say from my perspective, what I've seen can be really helpful for students and their services and outcomes is I share with school staff that we always want to remember the positive intent. That's behind questions that parents ask and parents I've never met a parent ever who doesn't want the very best for their child. I'm a parent myself, and I've worked with many parents and families over the years, never met a parent who doesn't want the very best for their, their child. And in the same vein, I haven't met any teachers who say that their goal is to have a student have less than optimal outcomes. And so I really believe that teams, IEP teams, teachers, and school staff and parents all have the ultimate same goal, which is that the student has a positive educational experience that the student learns that the student meets their IEP goals, that the student has friends. And so how to make that happen is something that sometimes team members differ on. So when there are differences of opinion or when a parent or family is struggling with what's happening for a child, that school, I would say a really good approach is to ask for an IEP team meeting. And that can happen at any time, not doesn't have to wait for the annual and to say, talk to start out with something like I really want to meet, because I want to talk about our goals for my student, not just annual IEP goals, but goals in general and make sure we're on the same page and think about how we can work together to support my child, to achieve the learning outcomes that we want to see them achieve, to, um, learn the social skills, to make friends, to be involved in extracurricular activities, and then ultimately get to where they want to be after high school. And so I think that it's, and as a parent, you know, I've struggled with this myself that when your child is, is seemingly not doing well. Um, it's, it's a very emotional moment and that's, that's okay. It's understandable. Um, and, and that it's okay to express that, but I would also just say that I know very few teachers and case managers who don't want to talk about that and don't want to listen and don't want to help make things better for a child. I would also say that that's one of the reasons that my position exists in that only the Madison school district, but every district has a director of people services, a director of special education, and that person can and should be an ally. So if you need to reach out and bring that person on board, that can be really helpful as well. Um, sometimes it takes a few discussions and a few, a few conversations, um, to, to get to a place of mutual understanding w school staff wanna understand where you're coming from. So help them to do that.
Speaker 2:Sure. I like your reminder that everyone really does have the best of intentions and the same goal of student success. So just to remind yourself of that and, and that it's okay to call an IEP meeting. I think that's good advice for parents too, you know, Nancy throughout your career, you have a great deal of experience in transition supports those supports for youth ages 18 to 21. And I know you've seen a lot of good practices and not so good practices. I'm wondering what you see in the future of quality transition programs, um, for youth with disabilities, what would you like to see happen? I guess,
Speaker 3:Yes. What I would love to see is I would love to see, um, this connects to the, you know, the budget questions on the funding questions is I would love to see every school, every high school have at least one transition coordinator, um, who gets to know the VOC rehab system, the division of vocational rehabilitation in Wisconsin, but every state has a rehab, um, a Voke rehab system that works with schools. So I'd love to see every high school have someone who can become an expert in the relationships with vocational rehabilitation and the relationships with adult service providers and relationships with employers and prospective employers in the community so that students could have work experiences earlier. I have, um, use the term evidence-based practice a couple of times in this podcast, but one evidence-based practice. That's very clear in transition services for students with disabilities is early work experience. And so thinking about those summers, even after ninth and 10th grade summers and weekends for students and working with VOC rehab to partner, to find perspective employers and supports to learn jobs and try jobs and actually get paid for jobs as early as possible. So I think having someone in the high school who can have those relationships and support families and students through the process is important. I also think that growing the range of options for students and families, again, I recognize that Madison like large school districts has resources, um, for flexibility, but we have a project search program, which is phenomenal in terms of bringing those pieces together, school parents, students, employers, Voke rehab, and adult agencies to support those experiences and gaining employment and employee employment and employability skills, which will lead to better outcomes for students. We also have a college program we're really fortunate to have campus connect. And so our high school students, um, can go to college with supports from our school district. And then also our buildings each have a transition coordinator, um, or sometimes multiple, depending on the size of the school and the size of the population of students in transition services. So I think growing options and opportunities, and I would love to see smaller school districts pull, pull together to hire transition coordinators that can gain that expertise on behalf of students and families. But if we can continue to grow those options, we have the workforce innovation and opportunity act in place. We have services that we need to provide. So we just have to continue to build the base of people who know how to do that. Sure. You know, Nancy, we're coming close to our end of our time together. You sound like such an optimist. Um, are you seeing good things in the future for students with disabilities and families and Wisconsin? Absolutely. Yes, I really am. I mean, I do believe that I believe that over these past five to 10 years, um, best practices are better known. And I believe that again, going back to the more parents and family members can educate themselves on what's possible, the more that they know what specifics to ask for, they may run into a teacher or even a special ed director who hasn't had a lot of experience yet in transition. So the more everyone educates themselves, um, the more we know the more we can do. So I I'm absolutely optimistic. And you know, I, I'm always so happy to be a part of, uh, talking about best practices in special education and in transition. So thank you very much for having me. Oh, thank you. I think we've come away with a lot of good advice and ideas. So we so appreciate you having us having on the podcast today. And I wanted to thank our listeners too for taking the time to listen to Nancy and the arc experience podcast. Be sure to join us next time and make sure you like share and subscribe
Speaker 1:Today's episode of the art experience was brought to you by the arc Wisconsin, the state's oldest advocacy organization for people with intellectual developmental disabilities and their families it's funded in part by the Wisconsin board for people with developmental disabilities. Our theme music called species is the property of[inaudible] and cannot be copied or distributed without permission. It was produced by Eleanor Cheetham, a composer and artist with autism.