Anyone Can Work: People with Disabilities as Part of Economic Recovery

Now that our state is talking about what life looks like coming out of the pandemic there is a lot of the discussion about economic recovery – getting businesses back up and running and getting everyone back to work safely. 

In Wisconsin, we know people with disabilities want to work, but they are seriously underemployed. In fact, People with disabilities have lost their jobs at a much more rapid pace during the pandemic  - generally, nationally, people with disabilities are employed at one-third the rate of people without disabilities. 

Today’s guest is passionate about changing that. 

Shannon Webb has over 25 years of experience working in the field of employment and community services for people with disabilities. Since 2005, she has been fostering innovation and systems change as subject matter expert for state and federal initiatives to increase integrated employment for youth and adults with disabilities. Over the years, she has collaborated extensively with self-advocates, family members, service providers, schools and funders and has received the Wisconsin Rehabilitation Leadership Award. Shannon is creative and an excellent problem solver. She believes everyone can work.

Work Incentives Planning and Assistance: https://eri-wi.org/programs/wipa/

Customized Employment: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/odep/program-areas/customized-employment 

Thank You to Old National Bank
This podcast episode has been brought to you by Old National Bank - a Leading Disability Employer.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the arc experience, featuring the stories of self advocates with disabilities and their families from around Wisconsin. Be inspired. Take action. And now for today's episode,

Speaker 2: 0:22

Hello and welcome to the arc experience podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Pew of the arc Wisconsin. You know, now that our state is talking about what life looks like coming out of the pandemic, there's a lot of discussion about economic recovery. How can we get businesses back up and running? How can we get people back to work safely in Wisconsin? We know that people with disabilities want to work, but they are seriously underemployed. In fact, people with disabilities, we know have lost their jobs at a much more rapid rate during the pandemic. And just generally nationally, people with disabilities are employed at one third, the rate of people without disabilities, but today's guest is going to help us change our perspective on that. She is passionate about getting more people with disabilities out in the workforce. Shannon web has more than 20 years experience helping people with disabilities to get jobs, improving systems of support for people, and she believes everyone should be able to reach their full potential as a citizen. A welcome Shannon. We're excited to talk to you.

Speaker 3: 1:32

Thanks Lisa. Thanks for having me on your podcast today.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Sure. We're looking for your inspiration, Shannon, but first let's talk a little bit about that bad news. How have you seen the pandemic impacting the employment of people with disabilities in Wiscon?

Speaker 3: 1:47

Yeah, people with disabilities were much harder hit than the general population. Um, with the pandemic in terms of job loss, we, you know, nationally, we saw that, um, you know, employment rates fell over 20% for people with disabilities versus, um, 14% in the general population. And, you know, in Wisconsin, our department of health services, um, estimates, uh, show that perhaps about 50% of people in longterm care programs, um, lost their jobs due to the pandemic and, you know, hardest hit industries where, you know, the leisure restaurant, hospitality industry, you know, education and health services. So a lot of people working in jobs in those fields and, um, you know, having to take a break because of, you know, closures business closures. I would say though that I, I, I kind of heard a mixed, um, you know, some mixed things around the state of Wisconsin over the last year. Some communities, you know, the, the pandemic didn't seem to, you know, hit some communities as hard as others. And so some businesses were in fact able to stay open, especially in different rural areas across Wisconsin. So some people were definitely able to keep their jobs in those positions. Um, and you know, there were a number of people working in essential positions in grocery stores, retailers, and whatnot that did continue to work. So, so again, um, you know, kind of a mixed, you know, um, you know, mixed results out there in terms of how the pandemic affected people. But, you know, I, I just want to say that I hope, you know, before the pandemic, um, you know, people, employers were really scrambling to find workers. We had a great economy, there was a workforce shortage with the baby boomers retiring and everywhere I went, you know, in Wisconsin, employers were really looking to hire, you know, people with disabilities tap into that talent. And I'm really hoping that as our economy rebounds, we're going to see a resurge and employer interest in hiring the needing reliable workers. I have hope,

Speaker 2: 3:47

You know, I think the, the work force, the workplace has changed so much coming out of the pandemic. Um, I, you know, more people are working from home. There's more technology, things like that. Are you also seeing new opportunities for people with disabilities, with different, you know, gifts and skill sets to be part of the economy now?

Speaker 3: 4:09

Yeah, absolutely. Remote work is, is becoming more and more of an opportunity. I think it's something that, um, you know, people with disabilities should start looking into more connecting with businesses about, and, and businesses should really think about how they can include people with disabilities in their remote workforce. Um, but what I S you know, what I see the biggest opportunity for as, uh, you know, really working with employers to carve and customize jobs right now as they retool reopen. Um, and so, you know, because they do have fluctuating needs and different needs now, um, I don't know if you've seen some of the articles in the paper or whatnot, but they're, you know, um, they're, especially in the hospitality tourism industry as, uh, businesses are reopening, they can't find employees. We almost don't even know where some, some of our workforce has gone. Right. And so I see a lot of help wanted signs out there. I've now gone to some restaurants and places where I can tell the service is suffering because employers really don't, you know, they're, they're trying to manage these new needs, the fluctuating business with the pandemic. Also, you know, looking for more part-time employees at this point in time as schedules change and whatnot. So I think, you know, what, what, what, there's an opportunity for us to talk to local employers, hear what they need and tailor, you know, those unmet needs to, you know, the skills of people with disabilities that, you know, we support, or if you're a person or a family member or a person with a disability to really, you know, have an opportunity to match those needs with what someone can do.

Speaker 2: 5:49

Sure. You know, uh, looking at your professional biography and I'm going to share it in the show notes, you really, and a statewide expert, if not a national expert in this thing called customized employment. And, you know, you mentioned that in what you were saying, and actually in how you describe it, you kind of said what that is, but I would imagine that customized employment is, or job carving is probably a new term or something that's really unfamiliar to people when they think about employment. Could you describe the difference between customized employment and what people typically think about a job or employment opportunity for somebody?

Speaker 3: 6:28

Yeah. Yeah. Customized employment might be a new term to some people, but it certainly has been around for at least a couple of decades, um, and is actually part of, you know, as endorsed by, you know, federal legislation, um, the workforce innovation and opportunity act as a, you know, promising and best practice for people with complex disabilities. So what customized employment is and how it's different from, um, like supported employment or, you know, regular job type of development or placement services is, um, you know, it really, it is about getting to know employers of what they need through, you know, an employer discovery process. But first I should say discovery meeting, informational, interviewing, hearing how their workplace works and, um, you know, uh, and what their needs might be. But then first, before you do that, you actually, you know, you get to know employee employees or, you know, job seekers in the same kind of way, where you get to know what they can do. You get to know what motivates them and what their talents and skills are. And so once you know what employers need, and you know, what people can provide, you can match those two things and actually create a job based on things the employer needs and what the person can do. And so that could be, you know, job creation, a position that never existed before it could be, like you said, job carving where it is taking parts of positions and putting them together so that, um, you know, a person can do those and then say, someone else can do something else. So it makes the workplace a little bit more efficient, um, whereas, you know, regular job seeking, um, and you know, what we might call supported employment or job placement services really just look at open and available positions, like kind of, uh, you know, what is the typical job we're gonna apply for that? Um, submit our application with everyone else and, you know, compete with the general, you know, pool of applicants. Um, and that may be, you know what I mean, contact that employer and let them know that, you know, we have a candidate that might be a good fit, um, and whatnot, and work on that relationship. But again, customize is really about, um, you know, matching the needs and matching what people can do and not paying attention to open positions and job descriptions. It's really about creating and customizing something around a person. Yeah. I think that really opens up. I think a lot of thinking now I listen to these conversations as a family member of somebody with a significant disability who likes to be busy and employed. And I think that this job customization or job carving can be really a great match for a lot of people with disabilities. But also, like you said, in this current economy for maybe an employer, that's struggling to find maybe all the help they need, if they can maybe think about their employment needs in a different way. Um, somebody with a disability might re really good match to, to meet a need. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 9:36

This podcast episode has been brought to you by old national bank. Old national bank has been recognized by the national organization on disability as a leading disability employer, and one of the best places to work for disability, inclusion, old national fostering, a welcoming workplace where people of all abilities, backgrounds and skills can work together to accomplish great things.

Speaker 3: 9:59

So if I'm a person with a disability and I'm listening to this podcast and I'm thinking about, I really want to work, I really want a job at Ben maybe unsuccessful, or I don't even know where to start. What are some good first steps for somebody who really wants to kind of get back out there? What would you suggest? Yeah, yeah. Um, well it's like starting a job search, you know, getting back out there and getting out there for the first time. Um, you know, I think a good first step is to take a personal inventory. Um, you know, what you like, what you don't like, your skills, uh, things that you can do, um, kind of who you are and what you, you know, who you are, what you bring to the work workplace. Right. Um, it's helpful to write all that out. Um, and, and, you know, there are some tools online that help people do that. Um, then I would say the next thing would be map out who, you know, and where they work. Um, you know, in terms of your friends, your family, you know, other people, you know, in your life and, and everyone, you know, that you're looking for a job and that here's what I'm good at. Right. Um, and this is what I really want to do. Um, and asking people if they have leads or connections or heard of anything. Cause I think, um, you know, one thing for people to keep in mind is that, um, like more than 80% of jobs out there are in, what's called the hidden job market. Um, there's never a, a help wanted sign or an advertisement they're not on, you know, whatever monster.com or, you know, um, the different websites, you know, they're all word of mouth and who, you know, I know someone, Oh yeah. You know, and or if you let people know, you're looking, if they hear something they could put two and two together. Right. And so, um, you know, I would, you know, that's a real natural approach to, um, you're looking for a job. Another thing people can do is, you know, connect with a job developer and that would be through the, of vocational rehabilitation. Or you can ask your Iris consultant or managed care worker to help you connect to an agency or resources that can help you. You know what I mean? Um, find someone to work with scope, job developers, help people find jobs. Some PE some job developers are trained in what we were just talking about, Lisa customized employment. So if that sounds like something that's, um, attractive to you is to have a position customized to what you can do. Um, then you'll want to find a job developer that knows how to do that. Um, and I, you, one thing I really want to emphasize to anyone who is working with a job developer or wants to work with a job developer would be before you, you know, decide to commit to working with a particular job developer is to interview them and ask them what their style is. You know, what kind of employer contacts they, they have, you know, how they work with job seekers, how they work with employers and get a sense of whether or not it's a good fit for you, because this is someone who's out representing you, you know, and, and talking to employers about you. And you want to make sure that you feel comfortable with them.

Speaker 2: 13:00

Sure. Oh, those are great tips. I love that hidden job market factor. That makes so much sense that you're not necessarily going to find your next job in the want ads. It's that word of mouth. You have to develop that skill, right. And be more assertive. I'm want to work. Um, you, we know there's a lot of barriers out there for people with disabilities to get employment, and sometimes they can be overwhelming for people. I'm just gonna shout out to you a list of common barriers that I hear that I know people face. And I wonder if you could give us some quick tips on, you know, just kind of some things to think about differently. Somebody says, I don't have transportation, can't work. I don't have transportation. What would you say?

Speaker 3: 13:42

Yeah, I would say, um, start with the end in mind. So think about, you know, where it might be possible to work, um, and then think about whether or not there's transportation. So, um, what I would do is, you know, look, think through all of the different modes of transportation, right? Um, sometimes people think, well, I don't have a car or there's not a public bus system. So, you know, if you live in an area where you could walk or bike to work, that would be, you know, something maybe you could learn to do, or you could have some support to do. Um, there's a gentleman in my community. Who's been, um, you know, biking to work and biking around town for, uh, you know, and he does it 24, seven, three 65. Um, I'll see him, you know, on a fat bike in the winter with a lots of blinking lights and safety features, but that's how, you know, he gets around, um, you know, to get where he wants to go. So the way to manage your health. Right, exactly. But, you know, um, there are bus systems and sometimes people need support to learn how to, you know, take those bus systems. So again, it's kind of thinking about, you know, if, if, if a bus is available or a taxi, um, or someone who can drive you again, this is thinking about, you know, the end in mind is, you know, thinking, you know, when, when are they available, where do they go? And can I find a job? You know what I mean, in that area or in, you know, during those times. Um, so again, there are supports and services that help people learn how to take the bus, learn how to take a taxi cab. Um, there was, um, a woman I know recently I, I talked to, um, her support staff about is, you know, sh she was very concerned about taking the taxi and kind of had refused to do that for years. Right. And, um, they started talking to her about, well, we could have someone ride with you. We could, you know, um, you know, provide support someone to make sure that, you know, you get, you know, on the taxi. Okay. Um, you know, get, meet you at work and whatnot. So they, they created a whole support plan around helping her take the taxi and, um, you know, we're successful in helping her become independent with that after a few months of, of learning how to do that. So, you know, that just opened up a lot more opportunities for her, for jobs. Um, so rideshare with family, friends, and neighbors, um, you can also use self-directed supports funds through Iris or family care to pay for that. Um, if you wanted to, um, find someone to drive you and you were in the long-term care program, um, DVR does help people, um, with drivers assessments and learning to drive if, if that is an option too. So it could be something to explore. I think sometimes with, um, people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, we kind of just automatically take driving off the table for, for a lot of people who perhaps could learn to drive, um, and could could, you know, with support and, and some accommodations in the testing and whatnot. So, and then ultimately, sometimes people have to move closer to work if they don't have transportation. So if you live out in a rural area and, um, you know, it might make sense to move into town and find, you know, a place to live in town so that you can use, you can walk, bike, use the taxi, use the bus, you know, find other people who could drive you, um, to, to work. So,

Speaker 2: 17:03

So what I'm hearing you not say is that if you think that transportation is your barrier to working, there's a whole lot of things you could try before then you can.

Speaker 3: 17:14

Yeah. I mean, I, that's why I'm saying, think about, you know, all of the different modes of transport, how could this happen? Because, um, just because of bus or a car isn't available, there might be other creative ways.

Speaker 2: 17:27

And a lot of it sounds like a lot of support systems that if you ask for that in your care plan and in a fork is a priority for you, there should be even some funding or other supports that you could maybe access.

Speaker 3: 17:39

Yes, absolutely. Yes. And that's one thing I didn't mention specialized transportation, right. Which can be paid for through the long-term care system. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 17:47

Another thing I want to make our listeners know about you is that you are not like this Pollyanna person who says here's all the things you should do. And the, and that you've never rolled up your sleeves and actually done that because I've known you long enough that you've helped a lot of people problem solve through these very issues and a lot of different communities in Wisconsin. And I don't know, I hope you give yourself credit for that, but I mean, urban communities, rural communities, I know you've helped people problem-solve around things like transportation. So it's not just something you're reading from a piece of paper.

Speaker 3: 18:25

Absolutely. Thanks.

Speaker 2: 18:26

Another, another barrier that I hear, um, my guardian, other people in my life don't think I can work. They just don't think it's possible. It's not safe.

Speaker 3: 18:36

So I would ask why, why do you think that w why do you think I can't work? Um, why do you think it's not safe? Uh, you know, and, and, and explore that, um, and say, you know, kind of think about, well, maybe, maybe it's because, um, you know, I don't have work experience or I don't know what I want to do. And so, you know, and, and that's might be why they think, well, you can't work because you haven't worked before, or, you know, um, so then that would be a matter of, Ben's asking to do some career exploration. You could ask your Iris consultant or your family care case manager to, you know, connect you to some resources for, you know, community-based pre vocational services, um, to try some volunteering things, um, get out there and, you know, and, and see what you like and what you can do. Um, and you know, other, by helping out other people by volunteering and contributing that way, um, you know, in terms of the safety thing, um, you know, people, a lot of times people disabilities start with supports on the job through job coaches. Um, and you know, that could be an option too. If a guardian is concerned about safety, um, an agency can support the person to get to work and to, you know, while they're at work to ensure there they're safe. Um, and also look for employers that offer and provide safe workplaces. So what, what, what, what are the safety factors and what, um, what should be considered, and let's look for an employer that fits that. So, you know, maybe having lots of, um, open to the public, you know, people coming in and out, you know, a very busy environment might not be a safe place for some people, well, maybe a smaller office place with, you know, coworkers, you know, uh, five, 10 coworkers who know you well is the type of environment that would be safest. So I think, you know, thinking through those things, asking why, why people have those opinions, you know, a guardian or others, um, and then really trying to, to say, well, what supports could be in place, or what are the ideal conditions that could, could, you know, be in place for, you know, me to explore jobs, to get work experience and to, you know, ensure my safety at work. Sure, sure.

Speaker 2: 20:58

Uh, what about that barrier that we also sometimes hear where the jobs that people suggest for me, aren't things I want.

Speaker 3: 21:05

I do, yeah. Yeah. I would say don't take a job. You don't want us cause that's the worst thing, our failure. Yeah. I actually just learned that, um, uh, some interesting statistics about kind of, um, happiness, mental health, uh, and employment is that, you know, we tend to think like, Oh, people who work have a better, you know, mental health and health. Right. Um, but it's actually only the case if we're in the job that we, like, if we get into a job that we don't like, generally what happens is our mental health suffers and, you know, that's not good that that affects our health. So don't take a job you don't want. Um, but I think it's important to know what you do want, um, and that can be found through doing some exploration, trying some things. Um, sometimes we don't know what we don't like or do, like until we actually give something a try. So going on job shadows, um, you know, doing as much career exploration as possible, you know, doing some volunteering, um, you know, some tours of places thinking about what type of environment people, you know, cause it's not just about the skills that we have and the tasks that we can do, but it's really about, you know, what type of work environment we want to be in, in belonging. So I think that's where, you know, trying things, you know, having those exploration activities is really, really important. Um, so, and sometimes it takes, you know, having a couple, you don't like to turn, you know, decide what you do. Like, so, um, so absolutely, but don't, you know, if, if your goal is to work, say with, you know, children or something like that, or, or in fashion and, uh, you know, people in your life are saying, well, here's this job at McDonald's, you know, uh, and that's just absolutely not who you are, what you want to do. Don't, don't take it, you know, explain again what I want to do. And let's brainstorm some employers that are in fashion or are in, you know, um, childcare or are, you know, in the areas that, that you're interested in. And, and if, you know, my suggestion then is to ask people to brainstorm at least 20 businesses that fit that theme, you know, whatever your interest area is, and really, um, you know, cause we tend to think, Oh, there's no employers in that, you know, in that, in our community. But in fact you'd be really surprised if you have people brainstorming or you start looking up businesses that fit in that, but you know, that interest area. So

Speaker 2: 23:33

Would you also say that, um, to think holistically about what you want to get out of a job that would make you happy? And I'm thinking like, for some people it's really so much about what they're doing at their job, but who they're around and the social aspects of work, whether how much socialization you want or, or the money sometimes too. So I know there's a lot of people that can do a job, like a task that's somewhat boring, but they still like their jobs because of the environment that they're in. Right?

Speaker 3: 24:07

Yeah, absolutely. I think that the environment and the people can really make, you know, make or break, you know, how someone feels about their job, right.

Speaker 2: 24:15

It can make wiping tables much more, um, interesting. You like your lunch break with your colleagues, right, exactly. You know, one final question in this area of barriers that I know you have a lot of experience in, is that, is that question of benefits. People who think, well, I can't work because I'm going to lose my benefits or maybe a Guardian's like, you can't work because, um, you, you you're, you won't get that check anymore. So I know that's like a huge myth and it's probably deserves its own podcast, but what's your general reaction to that?

Speaker 3: 24:51

Yeah. Yeah. Actually I was thinking about that when, you know, the question you had about when people say you can't work, right? Sometimes that's a reason why guardians and family members think that people can't work. So, um, my, my, uh, saying is, you know, people are better off working. Um, you know, that it is possible to, uh, work and keep the benefits you need. There's a lot of things out there programs called work incentives that come along with the public benefits that people receive. Um, they're super confusing, but they, they do help people earn money and keep the benefits that they need for services, you know, for room and board and food and all of that stuff. And so the best way to, um, you know, figure out how to navigate, you know, those work incentives and what's possible with work is by connecting with what's called a work incentive benefits specialist. And we have lots and lots of them in the state of Wisconsin. And, um, you know, people can connect to work incentive benefits specialist in three ways and they can provide a service to, to you free of charge. You, you don't have to pay for this. And so the first way is if, if you are in long-term care, so family care, Iris, you can ask your care manager or your Iris consultant to connect you to work incentive benefits, counseling services, and then, you know, they can help you, um, cause that, that can be part of your plan in those programs and that can be funded through your Iris budget or your, um, family care plan. And then the second way is through the division of vocational rehabilitation. So if you do want to work and you're concerned about the benefits or if you're currently enrolled with DVR and you want to make sure everything's going to be okay, when you go to work, you should ask your DVR, your division of vocational counselor to get you that service. And then there's another way that if you don't have family care, Iris or division of vocational rehabilitation is, um, through a program called the whip, a program, the work incentives, planning assistance program. And, um, they provide free benefits, help for people who aren't connected to other services. Um, and, um, you know, our, um, employment resources incorporated in Wisconsin is the whip up provider, the work incentives, planning assistance providers. So if you Google employment resources incorporated, Wisconsin, you will come up with their contact information that you can give them a call.

Speaker 2: 27:28

Well, you have just destroyed all of the barriers that somebody might have to employment. So, um, we have a lot of optimism about people with disabilities, getting re-engaged in the economy as we hopefully move on from the pandemic as we end our conversation. Shannon. Um, because I know you have, you know, been all across Wisconsin and really seen a lot of people with significant disabilities, um, working in the community. I know you have a lot of success stories in your brain. What is one of your favorite stories to share about maybe somebody who a lot of people thought wouldn't be able to work and know kind of what happened with that person?

Speaker 3: 28:12

Yeah, yeah. So, um, so, so this story is actually we published it on the Wisconsin board for people, developmental disabilities website. Um, it was S a story that, um, um, uh, headwaters incorporated, um, you know, helped a gentleman in Ryan Lander who had been working in his work center or in their work center for, um, over 20 years. Um, you know, start to get out of the work center, start to try some things in the community. Um, you know, he and his family just never really thought that employment in the community was possible. They weren't opposed to it, but they just thought, you know, the work center was where David would go and he was happy there. Um, so after doing some exploration and really learning about David and what he wants to do, um, they figured out that he really loved to cook. And so they figured that out because, um, they were doing some, um, you know, community, uh, uh, day services and he was in a cooking class and he really, you know, it, he loved it. And he said that he really wanted to make, you know, becoming a chef, um, part of his, you know, vocational goal. And so, um, headwaters helped him get a job at Culver's. Um, and in, in Rhinelander, um, he, um, started out wiping tables and whatnot with the idea that as soon as he was, um, you know, improved his cooking skills, that he would be able to go back and do food and cooking, you know, in the back then. And so, you know, that's why he continued to take cooking classes and whatnot. And so after 25 years, uh, you know, he, um, left the work center, he, um, works at Culver's. He, um, has a full day in the community, volunteering at the, you know, art museum, um, doing cooking classes and other types of things and Ryan Lander. So, uh, he's really a great example of, you know, if we, if we really get to know what people want and, you know, and, and what they're really great at and their passions that we can, you know, figure out how to find jobs in the community for them.

Speaker 2: 30:19

That's a really great story. Thank you for sharing that, that thank you, Shannon, for being on the podcast today. Do you have any final words of advice for people about employment?

Speaker 3: 30:30

I would say that when it comes to, you know, employment, be, uh, you know, get ready to advocate and be a good self advocate, let people know that you're looking for a job, know what you want to do. And if you don't know what you want to do, try to, you know, um, get some experiences through volunteering, helping other people, you know, maybe some temporary work with, uh, division of vocational rehabilitation. If that, if that is, you know, make sense for you. But I say, um, don't let anyone hold you back and have high expectations for yourself, or if you're a family member have high expectations for your loved one. Um, and, um,

Speaker 2: 31:09

And you'll get to where you want to be. You'll get that job. Perfect. Perfect way to end. We'll put a lot of the resources that Shannon talked about in the show notes here. Thank you again, Shannon for joining us and thank you to our listeners for listening to the arc experience podcast, be sure to like share and subscribe, and we will talk to you next time.

Speaker 1: 31:36

Today's episode of the Ark experience was brought to you by the arc Wisconsin, the state's oldest advocacy organization for people with intellectual developmental disabilities and their families it's funded in part by the Wisconsin board for people with developmental disabilities. Our theme music called species is the property of[inaudible]. It cannot be copied or distributed without permission. It was produced by Eleanor Cheetham, a composer and artist with autism.