Have you ever wondered how a simple melody can transform a mood or mend a mind? Could the rhythms and harmonies of music unlock a new dimension in healthcare?
Join us in this enlightening episode of me&my health up as we dive deep into the therapeutic world of music therapy with our distinguished guest, Dr. Tanya Silveira. Explore how tailored musical interventions can not only enhance mental well-being but also provide significant breakthroughs in treating neurological conditions like Alzheimer’s, Parkinson's, and recovery from strokes.
Dr. Silveira, with her extensive background in both psychology and music therapy, sheds light on how these methods can dramatically improve life quality for those afflicted. Whether you’re a healthcare professional, a caregiver, or someone interested in the potent healing power of music, this episode offers invaluable insights into a holistic approach to health that harmonises the body and mind.
Tune in to discover the profound impact music therapy can have on mental and neurological health, and why it might just be the treatment you or your loved one needs.
About Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Registered Music Therapist: Certified with a PhD focusing on music therapy for stroke rehabilitation.
Educational Background: Holds degrees in Music, Arts, and Psychology, integrating these fields in her practice.
Research and Advocacy: Extensively researches music therapy's impact on stroke recovery and advocates for its inclusion in holistic health care.
Public Speaker: Delivers engaging talks, including a TEDx talk on innovative music therapy techniques.
me&my health up seeks to enhance and enlighten the well-being of others. Host Anthony Hartcher is the CEO of me&my wellness which provides holistic health solutions using food as medicine, combined with a holistic, balanced, lifestyle approach. Anthony holds three bachelor's degrees in Complementary Medicine; Nutrition and Dietetic Medicine; and Chemical Engineering.
Podcast Disclaimer Any information, advice, opinions or statements within it do not constitute medical, health care or other professional advice, and are provided for general information purposes only. All care is taken in the preparation of the information in this Podcast. [Connected Wellness Pty Ltd] operating under the brand of “me&my health up”..click here for more
Have you ever wondered how a simple melody can transform a mood or mend a mind? Could the rhythms and harmonies of music unlock a new dimension in healthcare?
Join us in this enlightening episode of me&my health up as we dive deep into the therapeutic world of music therapy with our distinguished guest, Dr. Tanya Silveira. Explore how tailored musical interventions can not only enhance mental well-being but also provide significant breakthroughs in treating neurological conditions like Alzheimer’s, Parkinson's, and recovery from strokes.
Dr. Silveira, with her extensive background in both psychology and music therapy, sheds light on how these methods can dramatically improve life quality for those afflicted. Whether you’re a healthcare professional, a caregiver, or someone interested in the potent healing power of music, this episode offers invaluable insights into a holistic approach to health that harmonises the body and mind.
Tune in to discover the profound impact music therapy can have on mental and neurological health, and why it might just be the treatment you or your loved one needs.
About Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Registered Music Therapist: Certified with a PhD focusing on music therapy for stroke rehabilitation.
Educational Background: Holds degrees in Music, Arts, and Psychology, integrating these fields in her practice.
Research and Advocacy: Extensively researches music therapy's impact on stroke recovery and advocates for its inclusion in holistic health care.
Public Speaker: Delivers engaging talks, including a TEDx talk on innovative music therapy techniques.
me&my health up seeks to enhance and enlighten the well-being of others. Host Anthony Hartcher is the CEO of me&my wellness which provides holistic health solutions using food as medicine, combined with a holistic, balanced, lifestyle approach. Anthony holds three bachelor's degrees in Complementary Medicine; Nutrition and Dietetic Medicine; and Chemical Engineering.
Podcast Disclaimer Any information, advice, opinions or statements within it do not constitute medical, health care or other professional advice, and are provided for general information purposes only. All care is taken in the preparation of the information in this Podcast. [Connected Wellness Pty Ltd] operating under the brand of “me&my health up”..click here for more
Welcome back to another exciting and insightful episode of me&my health up. I'm your host Anthony Hartcher. I'm a clinical nutritionist and lifestyle medicine specialist. Today we have a very special guest, we are talking about music therapy. A music therapy for mental health, music therapy for anxiety, depression, Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, and victims of stroke. This episode is all about how music therapy can be applied to empower these people with these mental disorders. And so I'd love to welcome on the show and introduce you to Dr. Tanya Silveira. So Dr. Tanya Silveira is a registered Music Therapist. She has a Bachelor in Music and Arts and another Bachelor in Psychology. And she went on to do her PhD in applying music therapy for the stroke victims, and how to how music therapy can be applied to those that have suffered a stroke and how it can really help them in their rehabilitation. And so I really look forward to you joining me with this discussion. And we explore how it works, and who it's for. And just the intricacies around how music therapy really helps someone get back their full functionality. And it's a really intriguing episode. And really enlightening in that sense, because it will open you up to another paradigm beyond the talk therapy for mental health. It opens you up to a whole new world of music therapy for mental health. So without much further ado, I'd love to welcome you into the discussion I'm having with Dr. Tanya Silveira. Welcome in the me&my health up podcast. How are you, Dr. Tanya Silveira?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
I'm pretty well, thanks. Thanks so much for having me.
Anthony Hartcher:
It's such a delight to have you on. I've been working on this one for a couple of years now, I must say. So it's, it's it's great, great to have a very in-demand guest and you know, like and that's what I'm really excited about today is to have your specialty on the show, I've never interviewed a registered music therapist. And so you're the first and I guess that's special for me. And, and you you come with such you know, high regard. So all your authored papers, co-authored papers, and your breakthrough research, and your TED Talk. It's, it's really special. So before I get let the cat out of the bag or the rabbit out of the bag, I'd love to give you the opportunity to share with the listeners as to how you have arrived at what you're doing today as a registered music therapist.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Oh, that's a really great question. And I guess my response stems back 20 years, maybe I guess I'm in that age bracket now. When I was 15, my brother was looking into different courses for him to do in his, you know, university life. And we decided just for fun to see what might be interesting for me. And we came across this profession of music therapy, and, you know, five or so years later, after finishing my undergraduate, I still wanted to do it. And then I engaged in the Masters of Music Therapy. So I felt it was it was pretty amazing to be able to combine my passion of wanting to, I guess, help people as cheesy as that may sound. And also combine that with my love of music. So I feel very very fortunate to be in a profession where I just enjoy how everything kind of comes together.
Anthony Hartcher:
Absolutely. So every day that you get up, you don't feel like you're working, right? You're just doing something that you love doing.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
I mean, there are of course some challenging days, of course, you've got to gotta love those, bureaucratic systems that we work within and some challenging, I guess case, stories of people that we work with, but ultimately, I feel very privileged and really excited to do what I do. And I feel constantly inspired by the music therapy participants and patients that I work with. So yeah, I feel pretty lucky to be working in this kind of a profession.
Anthony Hartcher:
Fantastic. And your love of music. Is it because you play a musical instrument, or is it you just love listening to music and moving with the beat of music? What is it?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
I think it's a combination of a lot of factors. So I'm from a really musical family both parents are from musical family. So you know, music has been around my life ever since I was a child probably even in utero. My mom was a singer my dad was a saxophone player they met in a band and, and yeah, music's always been around I loved music when I was in school I really loved, you know, practicing my instruments. I was one of those kids who were never forced to get there practicing, I just really enjoyed it. And, yeah, it's always been around. And I've always yeah, connected with lots of different types of music. I've never been kind of pigeonholed into one genre. So I've always been fascinated by music anyway. So yeah.
Anthony Hartcher:
And I was listening or watching your TED talk, and you sharing the story about turning 18 and just wanting to go out and dance all night. And it wasn't the sweaty bodies that attracted you, it was the fact that you're moving your body to the music, and in beat, and it was just fine with being with your friends.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, and there's something amazing about how you know, music just bring people together, it's, you know, the universal language that you don't even have to know the lyrics for the same song. It's just if there's a solid beat, everyone just starts kind of moving together. And it's this universal feeling, which we don't even realise we're engaging with, which is pretty cool.
Anthony Hartcher:
And I liked how you shared the story about your grandmother asking you whether you knew the waltz or the tango, and all these sorts of dances and you said, I don't know any of them. And she goes, show me your dance moves.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, just jumping up and down, up and down. That's all we kinda did when we were 18 going out. And I wish I said, I mean, back then, I think many of the girls my age were wearing, you know, high heeled shoes. I wish I was in the generation of now with sneakers are fine. I'd probably have a bit more dance moves. But that was about yeah, a while ago now.
Anthony Hartcher:
100%. Yeah, so just to, I guess, your profession, and you know, where you're shining and helping others in such a great way. Let's talk about music therapy, and how it actually works. So how does music therapy, rewire the brain?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
So I think it might be good to backtrack a tiny bit, just to share that in the context of Australia to be a registered music therapist. You have to engage in the there are two masters of music therapy programs at the moment. So most music therapists are masters trained. And then we register with the Australian Music Therapy Association. So that might be helpful if people haven't really heard of the profession. And there's a lot of amazing evidence-based practice that is emerging from Australia, actually, and around the world. But when it really comes down to it, when you're thinking about rewiring the brain, essentially, the amazing thing about music is that it's processed in both hemispheres of the brain, so all over the brain. So if there is a challenge, or disturbance or damage in one part of the brain, music can actually help by overcompensating. And that's why it's really great for working in particular areas such as stroke, where there is a brain injury in a particular part of the brain. So music might help with speech rehabilitation, movement rehabilitation. And another aspect as well, when we think about music in the brain is that, you know, you may have actually come across some beautiful clips on social media and YouTube and things like that of people, you know, who have dementia, and they're not able to say words or speak, but they can sing, and then all of a sudden, after they sing these songs, they can actually reflect upon the memories from that time. And the reason why that is possible is because music is linked to our autobiographical memory. So we actually tap into the part of the brain that is still intact, and it's processed everywhere in the brain, it can actually help people kind of come out of it more.
Anthony Hartcher:
Wow. And I watched that documentary on the ABC, and it was looking at using music therapy for those with Parkinson's. And they went took us through a study during that documentary. And I thought that was amazing in terms of how these people that really struggled with movement, that once they started this music therapy, their body just started to move like, you know, like it would like it should.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, and actually with Parkinson's as well, a lot of that links to you know, that I guess that anecdote I offered at the beginning of my TED talk about you know, everyone just kind of jumping up and down to the beat in sync with one another. In music therapy, we refer to that kind of synchronisation as entrainment and when you when we're working in Parkinson's, many of us really focus on the importance of rhythm and beats, to help people with Parkinson's, you know, entrain or synchronise to the beats, and that has shown to have great benefits for kind of even activities of daily living, whether whether they're walking from point A to point B, or whether they are getting faster at that walking or just sequencing their movement a little bit better to have kind of more safer walking. It all comes back to that kind of synchronisation of the beat and the rhythm. And
Anthony Hartcher:
when we're in synchrony with the beat and rhythm, does that elevate dopamine? Is that direct? Yes. Have you seen evidence of that?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Um, off the top of my head? I comment on that. But I will say that because a lot of the kind of entrainment or synchronising processes are linked to familiar music, I would say yes, for sure. Because we're not just using, you know, the music therapists people often ask, you know, what music should I listen to? And the response is, whatever music you want to listen to, actually, because music is linked to our memory. So when we listen to music, or engage with music, in our music therapy sessions that are linked to particular positive memories, then for sure that's going to make us feel good about ourselves in the moment. So that's something that I did a lot of work with when working in Parkinson's groups, asking them what music do you like, and using that music in a more rhythmic way, whilst they also engaged in perhaps singing, which is actually quite difficult to focus on two things at once, if you're someone who was at a particular stage of their Parkinson's diagnosis, but also because it was a group experience, they were also really kind of getting that energy or that vibe, if you like off one another. And it was a shared experience as well. So there are kind of multiple levels like the rhythmic element makes it easier to kind of follow and then have successful output, then the familiar music aspect also brings them back to their memories, and you know, the positive experiences they had, and then you've got the group element where they're actually, you know, creating new experiences with people in a really relatable way. So lots of different levels there. Yes,
Anthony Hartcher:
I could also see how oxytocin would be also potentially elevated with that feeling of connection and doing it with others. For sure. Yeah. So it's, it's incredible in terms of how it can really help our mental health around boosting certain neurotransmitters, it just simply by playing music that we relate to we associate good memories with and, you know, that bringing up those memories for people that are struggling to recall past memories with dementia. And then as you mentioned, with Parkinson, starting to help prove that movement mobility with those with Parkinson, how do you work with those that have suffered a stroke, because in the talk, in the talk the TED talk, you mentioned that one in six people globally are affected by stroke. And I can certainly relate to that in my family. My mother had a stroke, my grandmother had a stroke. And just recently, last week, a friend of mine in the Philippines, her brother had a stroke. So it's all around us. And people are, you know, families are grasping with it, as you said, it not only affects the person that has the stroke but also those around it, you know, witnessing loss of mobility, loss of function with that person that loved one.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, music therapy and stroke, I think is, is a pretty incredible, I mean, I refer to it as a superpower music therapy in the context of stroke. Because the stroke survivors more often than not, they have multiple needs. It's not just, you know, let's focus on getting your hand a bit stronger. Along with that it's normally a speech challenge, cognitive challenge, walking, a sense of identity or reformation of identity. And then, especially with some of the youngest stroke survivors that I've worked with, who were you know, from their kind of mid 20s to late 40s. There's this shift in kind of relational dynamics with their partners as well, where the partners also become the carer and so there's lots and lots and lots of levels going on. And the reason why I, I like to position music therapy as a superpower in the context of stroke is because music therapists can actually draw upon multiple goal areas at the same time in one intervention. And though we may not be as knowledgeable as hand rehabilitation as an occupational therapist or physiotherapist, we can actually engage the person in hand rehabilitation-based exercises, whilst looking at identity reformation and self-expression at the same time. And that's something that I did in my PhD intervention, looked at hand rehabilitation and well-being at the same time because from my clinical experience, I found that it wasn't just the trauma, you know, the neurological trauma of the brain. It was also the psychological trauma of the stroke survivor grappling with this new sense of self and also from many people that I worked with not not wanting to even acknowledge that they had had a stroke whilst recognising that they had had a stroke. And for many of us, you know, I hate to use the C word COVID. But for many of us, we now have this interesting shared experience of what it feels like to feel isolated, to feel removed from society, to have kind of lower energy levels for initiating things because of this shared experience of COVID. And that's something that, you know, might be relatable for the audience to think about for stroke survivor, you know, they, they feel trapped, they feel like they're not themselves, the motivation is really hard to initiate doing anything, which impacts their ability to actually have changes in their physical outcomes. So that's why I focused on wellbeing and hand function at the same time. And in this intervention, the stroke survivors engaged in using an accessible music-making application called Thumbjam, which I didn't create, I just used a lot in my practice. So they didn't have to have much movement to engage with it. And because they were actually making music whilst working on hand exercises, they were engaging in what we refer to as nonverbal self-expression, they were just creating music, I was accompanying them on the guitar most of the time. And then we had more focused exercises like learning an excerpt of a familiar song. And we found that in their reflections through the qualitative analysis, there was some shift in their experience of anxiety in that acute setting. And there was some improvements in hands function, but this study happened during COVID. So we didn't get out at the numbers that we wanted. But it was a really exciting kind of first step to learning a little bit more about, you know, how we can make intervention more accessible for people. And also looking at multiple things at the same time, which is very common in the music therapy space.
Anthony Hartcher:
I really love that holistic approach that it has in terms of as you said, you're not only helping with that physical function, you're also helping with that rediscovering their identity and connecting with their identity through that allowing them to express themselves through music, do you find that the music they choose initially is different to where they go to over the course of treatments? Like do you find that initially, initially, that music may be associated with some denial or some, you know, a bit of anger about, you know, to themselves or to someone else about what's happened? And then it they've moved through that cycle of, you know, going through that, I guess, grieving cycle? Do you find that? Yeah,
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
I think it depends on the level of injury as well, I suppose. So in my particular study, the stroke survivors basically had limited to no hand function at all. So I should mention, I combined this music-making method with something called functional electrical stimulation, which is a method used by physios and occupational therapists. So when I actually met the stroke survivors, in that recruitment phase of my study, many of them were just kind of saying to me, I'll try anything at this point because I just, I just need to know that something can happen. Whereas when I've worked with participants who have had more presenting movement, and it is more that the goals are more focused on the kind of psychological motivational aspects of their, of their recovery. Often, I find that I guess from an anecdotal clinical experience perspective, there is less receptivity to kind of really engaging than there's more engagement. And then, you know, working towards kind of self directed engagement. So with the more engagement perspective, I suppose what I find really fascinating as a therapist is when the stroke survivors, or any of the participants I work with, actually go deep into the challenging aspects rather than, Oh, yeah, I liked this song, let's sing it, because then they're finding music that actually meets where they are. So it might be a type of music or a particular song that might be you know, in quotation marks depressing, but having a music therapist there, support them in engaging with that listening process whether they are crying in the process or not, you know, really validate their experience and meet where they are, rather than trying to make the person feel happy when they're on this end of the spectrum, really not happy. When you try to make someone happy, who's on that end of the spectrum, you're going to do more harm than good. And I guess that kind of linked to some of the incredible work by Professor Katrina Skewes McFerran, which looks at the healthy and unhealthy uses of music. So remember, we can use music in a really unhealthy way we can downward spiral if we don't have the knowledge and skills to move through. So yeah, it kind of it really does depend on the individual. But I would say that the most kind of deep, I suppose sessions are when the person actually allows you in and shares all of the challenging stuff. And it may not be appropriate to shift that perspective. But in that moment, but then at least you can validate for that continued shift for that sense of identity. So sorry, that wasn't a very straightforward answer but people are complex. 100%,
Anthony Hartcher:
I totally understand that everyone's unique and different and special in that in that sense. So, you know, each case is a separate case, and you just work with where the person's at and take them through the process. And that's, I think, what I gather from what you're saying, depending on where they're at, you know, that's how you progress them forward. And, you know, people move through that, at different rates, you know, some people are a bit slower, some people are a bit faster than others, and, but you're essentially progressing, you know, making progress with their mental health and, you know, the the acceptance and acknowledgement and tapping into their unique superpowers. Yeah,
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
and what I find really interesting, because I've worked in pediatrics, and you know, across the lifespan in stroke, and it often, you know, people are often really shocked when they learn about, you know, the fact that children and babies can have a stroke, as well, because the media kind of focuses in more on the older population. But, you know, working across the lifespan, I find it really fascinating to see how people at different life stages, you know, their level of motivation. And one thing that, again, anecdotally that I've really learned from these wonderful stroke survivors is the importance of the supportive network. And I found that people who generally have more support in their life, their everyday life feel more motivated to engage in, you know, this, this way of this therapy, self directed. So beyond the therapeutic session, and one particular person I worked with, you know, he was about 32, when he had his stroke, really, you know, fit working professional lives with his partner, and wasn't interested in music, but wanted to give it a go when he had some really incredible outcomes. And you know, was able to drive by the end of, you know, the program finishing, was able to write his name, return to work, was able to iron his clothes, you know, all of that kind of thing. And one thing that I found was really interesting in his sessions was that his brother and his partner would come to every single session, and that was something that was really important to him. So that supportive network, whatever end of the lifespan, I think, as therapists and people working with people who have complex needs, you know, be really attuned to, if people have supportive networks, and if they don't, what you can do from an equity perspective to support that and build that as well. It's
Anthony Hartcher:
so quite, you know, Yeah, that's such an important point is that having that support network, because progress needs to happen beyond the session, otherwise, in essence, life, life will get in the way, and you'll go back to your old ways, and you're sort of sort of taking one step forward, two steps back, and yeah, I can, I can see why when you had the whole family there, that if he was, you know, back into the real world, and, you know, taking on the challenges and facing new obstacles, because obviously, once he was able to, you know, potentially walk up a set of stairs, and now that's a bit more difficult, or he needs to do it with assistance. And that's, you know, hits him in the face again, ah, you know, like and reminds him of what's happened and, but having someone there, or the carer there with him that's really supportive, you know, it can I guess take that, you know, that I guess, caring supportive role during those times and keeping moving forward. Have you had any other cases that really stood out in your career?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
I mean, so many, just trying to think of which one to share, I suppose. I've been really fortunate to do some long-term work with some with some young people. So there's a I mean, I met him when he had a stroke when he was about, I think, 11. And I'm still working with him now. And he's a teenager. So this whole, you know, when you're in your adolescence, you're transitioning to your new sense of self and identity is really interesting. And with this particular young person, what I have really learned is the way that he speaks about how he had a stroke that's really shifted my, I guess, my understanding and approach to working in stroke across the lifespan, because the way that he talks about stroke, remembering about how he had had the stroke when he was 11 is very different to how you know, 32-year-old talks about having had the stroke versus, you know, an 84-year-old talked about having a stroke. And I feel very inspired by this young person because he transitions into talking about how he had a stroke. And it was very scary. And now he's really strong. And, you know, the strength that he's talking about is his physical strength. We did a lot of work and hand rehab and speech rehab, but but what I really see across that lifespan that I've worked with him so far, and through kind of teenagery, you know, shifts, which is, you know, a really complex time for an individual is his inner strength and how he's advocated for himself in his various school setting, how he's kind of found his sense of self, you know, he told me in a recent, we do a lot of songwriting together to help with just word finding, and also that emotional expression. And in a recent songwriting experience, he reflected upon how he wanted to when, you know, when he finishes school, he wanted to be a nurse and a music therapist. And it was just, you know, so hard to not get teary in the session, because that's what he remembers from when he had a stroke, you know, you never realised whatever discipline you are, you never realise the impact you'll have on, especially children who, who were kind of getting to know who they are. And so I was very young, very inspired by him to show off. But but along with him, you know, there were so many people I've worked with, and, and there's another particular stroke survivor, who, who I remember telling me and I think I referenced this in the, in the TED Talk, who had shared that they felt like they were half a person in after having the stroke, which is a really, you know, when when this person said this to me in a session, I remember just feeling my heart sink. And though that isn't a particularly uplifting comment, it's a real comment that I'd never heard before. So when I heard this from this person, again, it really shifted my practice as a therapist, and made me even more cognisant to not just try and, you know, make people feel happy to really meet where they are. And I've, I've drawn upon that, quote, you know, that the importance of lived experiences, is, you know, I prioritise that more than clinical experience, because you need to connect with people, of course, so when I'm working with stroke survivors, who are in a really, really challenging part of the journey in recovery, I may say something like, look, you know, I've never had a stroke myself, I don't know what it feels like to go through that. But I had worked with a stroke survivor who shared with me that, you know, they felt like they were half a person when they're in this phase. And I cannot tell you how many stroke survivors who have connected with that since just from that comment of, you know, lived experience and validating that this is not great, you know, yeah, you can feel motivated and get better. But at the end of the day, it's a really challenging time. So, yeah, kind of coming back to lived experience as well, from the kind of uplifting, exciting perspective of the young person, but also from the challenging perspective of the older person who shifted my practice a lot.
Anthony Hartcher:
It's amazing how clients often progress us as clinicians, therapists. Yeah, it really is, like, like, I once heard that saying that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. But then I've also recently heard the reverse of that saying, when the teacher is ready, the student appears, you know, like, in the sense that when the student or when the teacher is ready for the next next level of progress, then that student comes and challenges them to go to that next level of progress. So,
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, totally.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah, I found that my personal clinical practice, and I could hear it, you know, what you're saying, and I thought, wow, I can relate to that. It's quite, quite profound.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
And I think I've always gotta keep on learning from the people that we're working with, and that we're supporting, because at the end of the day, as therapists we're working for them, you know, so we've got to find that nuance and find that shift and half the time, it really challenges, maybe what we learned at uni, or the particular technique that, you know, is supposed to make a big difference, but it's not working for that person. And that, you know, part of being a clinician. 100%
Anthony Hartcher:
So, I was thinking like, you work a lot with, you know, some of these really debilitating or, you know, they have such a big impact around mental health, you know, I guess disorders or diagnosis. What about the lesser sort of, I mean, it can be, it can be quite debilitating, you know, chronic anxiety and chronic depression, you can also work work with those people?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, so actually, my early in my career, I helped establish an ongoing mental health program in a couple of hospitals, which are now government-funded, which was very exciting. And that was in acute mental health. And that actually inspired the way that I work in neurorehabilitation. That's why I have a huge mental health aspects my neuro work, but in my mental health work, and you know, there's heaps of amazing music therapy research about music therapy, and mental health and, or mental ill health. And I guess one big thing that I learned about in my work, there was, again, the importance of connection and lived experience, but also the importance of processing. So in my work in mental health, we look, I was predominantly working with people who have had some challenges with addictions, or various substance abuse. And then also with people who had, yeah, quite a quite a diverse array of diagnoses as well. But back then, this is going probably about eight years ago, we were creating a new program. And so people would just, we did like this open group thing where people would just come together, and it would be kind of an array of people in this phase. And what I found works really beautifully was using improvisations-based methods in music therapy, where we let the kind of instruments do the talking. So you know, we'd I'd get particularly instrument or program, particularly instruments so that when we played together, it would have a, you know, it would feel accessible to engage with the people. And then I'd either play a guitar or a piano and kind of hold the space if you like. So keep it grounded. So everything that was happening, you know, it would just it would feel okay for the participants. And then we'd have a bit of a chat about it after and one thing that really, again, I learned this from my experience in the field, one thing that really shifted my knowledge was that many of the people who had experienced challenges with substance use said that engaging in these processes helped them feel like they were getting to that high that they had whilst on substances. So they found this alternative for this, you know, the chemical hips. And then we actually created more concrete, something more concrete after that, where we create a song with words and lyrics, which would verbally unpack what that means and kind of explore why they're in hospital at this time, and that kind of thing. So that was my, that was my kind of intro to working in mental health, which has shifted again, my practice that even in neuro rehab, I use a lot of those methods across. But yes, I think in the mental health space, as well, working with people one on one, there are lots of different music therapy, methods and techniques that people draw upon to support that self-expression, but also to support you know, things like medication compliance, interaction with other people around as well. There's so many different methods. Yeah,
Anthony Hartcher:
I can see how it could really work with someone that doesn't like the talk therapy, and how this is a great help and aid to support them. Because, as you said, they're expressing themselves via a musical instrument. And it's allowing them not to talk but to express their feelings outwardly through the music they're playing. And I are seeing parallels to art therapy, where they're expressing what's going on internally, through pictures that they've drawn.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
and I've been very fortunate to work with a lot of art therapists actually, in that way. There's a lot of art therapy work happening in the mental health sector as well. And it's a very Yeah, similar process in that you, you know, when you think about just people in everyday life, when you've experienced something really challenging, sometimes to talk about it makes it more real, and we don't always feel ready to talk about stuff straight off the bat, especially if it's a really challenging experience. And we don't want to feel upset by it, even though we know that's healthy. We don't want to do it, but also for some people the kind of other side of that is that they may be going through some stuff and they may not actually have the words or the language to articulate verbally what that is. So these kinds of creative art therapy processes become more accessible for that outlet. And with music therapy, I know without therapy, there's often a kind of concrete end product if you're if you're creating in particular art processes. But with music therapy, you may have an outcome that you can see like we've Yeah, we've written a song, but you may also have something that's just kind have left out into the ether, whether you've engaged in a musical process, and it's there, and there's no concrete, tangible thing to take away from it as well, which can also be helpful in those earlier sessions as well. It's true
Anthony Hartcher:
that the only real thing they take away is the experience with you creating the music and how they felt in that moment creating that music. Yeah, it's, it's been fascinating, I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing all this knowledge and insight around music therapy and how I can help with mental health and help with the rehabilitation in terms of, you know, those those mental conditions. We spoke about Parkinson's, dementia, and having, you know, stroke people. So I really appreciate you coming on the show, Dr. Silveira. So how can the listeners best connect with you? You're
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
welcome to contact me through my social media. So my instagram handle is@tanyamariephd. And for those of you who are interested to know more about how you can draw upon music in your work or in your practice. I'll send through my website for my workshops, which is tmsworkshops.com.au, so you're welcome to contact me through that as well. Fantastic.
Anthony Hartcher:
And listeners, I'll include those links that Dr. Silveira shares with me in the show notes. So you can just go directly to the show notes, click on those links. And just my final question I have for you is can you work with people remotely with music therapy? Is it something that can be applied remotely?
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Yeah, so a lot of music therapists work through telehealth channel. So, I mean, this has been happening pre-COVID. Because as you can imagine, actually, there's, you know, not as many, many music therapists as there are other allied health discipline. So, for me, in particular, I do work via telehealth. And that has developed I suppose, a little bit more since COVID. Because a lot of families have made the decisions and cost the cost of living crisis, we've got to mention that as well. People are moving to more kind of less metropolitan areas, but they've wanted to maintain their therapeutic engagement. So many music therapists do work remotely. Again, it depends on the goal areas of the of the person, but I'm sure any music therapist is up for that as well.
Anthony Hartcher:
That's fantastic to know. Because a lot of the listeners will be, you know, remote from Sydney, so I just really wanted to make sure that you could help them if that was possible, then that's great that you can work with telehealth has really opened you up to working with, you know, in a global sense. Yeah,
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
for sure. And I think it's really important, especially thinking about, you know, my, my partner's family are from a rural community, you know, about six hours away from Sydney, and just thinking about, Oh, they have, you know, a main hospital, the access to various therapeutic services is very limited, of course, when you compare to metropolitan areas, so it's really wonderful that you can link in with telehealth services, especially for rural communities to have more access. It's
Anthony Hartcher:
fantastic. It really is. Because it's like, it's finding the right solution. And for the individual, as you mentioned earlier in our discussion, and like if music therapies for them, then it's them having access to that resource is really going to help them so it's really good, good for people to know. And the purpose of this podcast is to enhance and enlighten the well-being of others. And you've certainly done that today, Dr. Silveira. So thank you so much for coming on the show.
Dr. Tanya Silveira:
Thanks for having me.
Anthony Hartcher:
You're welcome.
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