Have you encountered barriers in seeking medical or emotional support after a difficult relationship? How did you overcome them?
Join Anthony Hartcher and Kathy Ozakovic as they dive into the profound impact of narcissism on physical health and personal well-being. Kathy bravely shares her journey of surviving a narcissistic relationship, and the impact on her thyroid health. Anthony explores the importance of self-reflection and holistic healing in navigating such challenges.
🌟 Highlights:
Kathy's personal battle with a narcissistic partner and its surprising effects on her thyroid.
Insights into holistic approaches to wellness and preventive care.
Practical advice on healing and moving forward after emotional trauma.
About Kathy Ozakovic
Kathy is an Accredited Practicing Dietitian and Founder of NuFit Wellness. Her speciality is in Holistic Gut Health. Kathy stepped away from working in hospitals to focus on guiding clients in proactive health and disease prevention. Through research, Kathy found her passion for gut health and focused on understanding the relationship between the human gut microbiome and wellbeing.
With personal and professional experience supporting individuals with Metabolic disease, Gut Health Issues, Performance Nutrition and Eating Disorders, Kathy has noticed that focusing on gut health helps these individuals improve physically and mentally.
me&my seeks to enhance and enlighten the well-being of others. Host Anthony Hartcher is the CEO of me&my wellness which provides holistic health solutions using food as medicine, combined with a holistic, balanced, lifestyle approach. Anthony holds three bachelor's degrees in Complementary Medicine; Nutrition and Dietetic Medicine; and Chemical Engineering.
Podcast Disclaimer Any information, advice, opinions or statements within it do not constitute medical, health care or other professional advice, and are provided for general information purposes only. All care is taken in the preparation of the information in this Podcast. [Connected Wellness Pty Ltd] operating under the brand of “me&my health up”..click here for more
Have you encountered barriers in seeking medical or emotional support after a difficult relationship? How did you overcome them?
Join Anthony Hartcher and Kathy Ozakovic as they dive into the profound impact of narcissism on physical health and personal well-being. Kathy bravely shares her journey of surviving a narcissistic relationship, and the impact on her thyroid health. Anthony explores the importance of self-reflection and holistic healing in navigating such challenges.
🌟 Highlights:
Kathy's personal battle with a narcissistic partner and its surprising effects on her thyroid.
Insights into holistic approaches to wellness and preventive care.
Practical advice on healing and moving forward after emotional trauma.
About Kathy Ozakovic
Kathy is an Accredited Practicing Dietitian and Founder of NuFit Wellness. Her speciality is in Holistic Gut Health. Kathy stepped away from working in hospitals to focus on guiding clients in proactive health and disease prevention. Through research, Kathy found her passion for gut health and focused on understanding the relationship between the human gut microbiome and wellbeing.
With personal and professional experience supporting individuals with Metabolic disease, Gut Health Issues, Performance Nutrition and Eating Disorders, Kathy has noticed that focusing on gut health helps these individuals improve physically and mentally.
me&my seeks to enhance and enlighten the well-being of others. Host Anthony Hartcher is the CEO of me&my wellness which provides holistic health solutions using food as medicine, combined with a holistic, balanced, lifestyle approach. Anthony holds three bachelor's degrees in Complementary Medicine; Nutrition and Dietetic Medicine; and Chemical Engineering.
Podcast Disclaimer Any information, advice, opinions or statements within it do not constitute medical, health care or other professional advice, and are provided for general information purposes only. All care is taken in the preparation of the information in this Podcast. [Connected Wellness Pty Ltd] operating under the brand of “me&my health up”..click here for more
Three things cannot be hidden the sun, the moon, and the truth. Big believer in this as well. So the day that I drew my bloods was the day that he had his anger outburst. And three days later, I get a phone call that my GP wants to discuss the results with me. So straightaway, I'm like, something's up.
Anthony Hartcher:
That was Kathy Ozakovic, and you're landed on the me&my health up podcast. I'm your host, Anthony Hartcher, a clinical nutritionist and lifestyle medicine specialist. The purpose of this podcast is to enhance and enlighten your well-being. And today, I have Kathy on the show again. This is the third time, the trilogy. She previously did a recording with me on gut health, which was a real hit, and a subsequent recording on breast explants, where we spoke about what you're not told about breast implants. And that was also another hit, and this one, I guess, will also be a great hit. And we're talking about narcissism, being in a narcissistic relationship, and the impacts on your physical health. So Kathy is sharing her story again. It's a very open and raw story. It's very relevant, recent. And so she's sharing it from a health perspective, and what helped her, and how she overcome it, and how you can also help overcome anything in your life that is really getting you down and out and how you can rebuild your functioning. So your metabolism, your thyroid function, so that you can speak up and speak out. And so this episode, we cover thyroid function, thyroid health, the inability to speak up when we're in a such a relationship, where we're being spoken down to, and then also what to look out for in a narcissistic relationship. And I just realised when I was looking for further research in this episode on narcissism is a psychotherapist that I've also had on this podcast has spoken to the fact that we are all born narcissistic. So we are all born with immense pride. And we are all born about thinking about ourselves. And so it is not that we don't have this ability within us, and we can easily switch to it. And so we all have this narcissism within us at some degree. And there's obviously different degrees of narcissism. So what I realised is that when Kathy was sharing her story, that I've expressed these, these tendencies or these narcissistic traits to others in relationships, so it's certainly something I could relate to in relationships, where I've been the one that expressed these narcissistic traits. So tune in, have an open mind to this and reflect on yourself do some self reflection I certainly did when I was chatting with Kathy. So without much further ado, I'd love to welcome you into this episode with Kathy Ozakovic. Welcome back on the me&my health up podcast. How are you, Kathy?
Kathy Ozakovic:
I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Anthony Hartcher:
So great to have you on for the trilogy. I'm so excited. We did gut health in the first episode. Second episode was around your breast implants. And the third episode is around thyroid and the integration of Eastern and Western medicine and how we can make it work best for us. And obviously, it's another personal story. So as we're chatting pre-episode, we talked about the N of 1. So maybe, let's start with the N of 1 concept, and then you can expand into your story and what you've got to share with the listeners and what you've learned from your experience.
Kathy Ozakovic:
Yeah, so we were talking just before we started recording how at university and throughout all our studies, we are so encouraged to look at the research. Everything needs to be research-based. And yes, there's an element to this, but also remembering they encourage us N=1 doesn't mean anything. But really, when you think about it, there's no such thing as the average person. All of this research is based on averages, but everybody falls somewhere different on this line. And everybody is N=1 because we're also individuals. So what works for one person will not necessarily work for another person. And this is where I've really adopted with my clients as well, the theory of trial and error and correction. So really giving something a go, seeing whether it's going to work for you, adjusting it, being flexible, correcting it until you get the success that you want and the results that you want.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah. It's fantastic that you share that because, yeah, we are the best determinants of, you know, what's working. We know what resonates with our body and what doesn't. And so, I really liked how you shared that. And it's a very personal journey for everyone and so and a very unique journey so I'm so glad you encourage your clients to certainly embrace the trial and error and go on a journey with you and ultimately find what works for them. So, yeah, thanks for sharing and enlightening the listeners on that one. But yeah, please share your story because I'm sure the listeners are really intrigued as to what you've got to share this time because the previous two episodes with you were very enlightening. So I can't wait to hear.
Kathy Ozakovic:
Thank you so much for having me. So today is all about the thyroid, and our nervous system, and really shining a little bit of light on a whole missing leg in our medical system at the moment, which is we know as wellness. So really talking about that preventative aspect. So this is something that's very close to my heart, something that I am on a mission to raise awareness of as well when it comes to that preventative health and the wellness space that we don't really have in Australia, probably not so much worldwide, really, when you think about it. Basically, long story short, right, my thyroid was giving up on me. I am 29 years old, really fit and healthy. When you look at me, you wouldn't say there's anything wrong with me. But we do know from my last episode, I had breast implants for seven years. So my immune system has been very strained for seven years. Funny story, last year when I went to get new ear piercings, it took about six months for my new ear piercings to heal. When I went to change them over, I kept getting sent back and told to wait a little bit longer until I can change them. Finally, after six months, I'm able to change them over. And the beautiful girl that was changing them says, I don't want to say there's something wrong with you, but your immune system seems to be struggling. And I just burst into laughter because I knew and I told her that's what having breast implants for seven years does to the body, it lowers your immune system and everything is recovering now. And it just turned out that she was thinking about it and having that short conversation with me really put her off because she began to understand what actually happens when we put these foreign objects in the body. So my immune system overall, it's still healing, my body is still healing, I'm 16 months, 17 months post-surgery, I'm still healing. And I also often say, you know, if I'm in a car accident, please don't call the chiropractor. If my guts are spilling out, let the surgeon do his job, stitch me up. But then once I leave that hospital, that's when the real healing begins, what we do afterwards, how we take care of our body, what we eat, how we think, how we move, how we sleep, all of these things are going to help the healing journey. So 29 years old, I look pretty healthy. But around December 2023 so last year, I started to feeling started feeling really fatigued and things that just were not me and I started bringing it up with my coach, I have a fitness coach. And I started saying, you know, usually my steps are 15 to 17,000 steps a day, I'm barely getting 6000 step, I feel exhausted, I'm constipated. And being a gut health specialist as well I'm taking note of everything. I'm like, this is unusual for me. And I'm doing all the things as well that I know are gonna help, I'm still getting really constipated, I'm feeling really fatigued, I'm sleeping more, I'm feeling down, a little bit more depressed, just not like myself, I'm feeling more achy, I'm just not recovering as well as I know myself to recover from those gym sessions. And it was a really awkward kind of a time because GPs were going on leave it was Christmas holidays, New Year's, and I had to book in to see my GP late in January. That's how long I had to wait to go see her. And I'm sure that the listeners can also appreciate that when you click with a certain GP, when you build that rapport with someone, you kind of want to go see the same person and speak to the same person who knows a little bit more about you and it was about the 20th of January when I went to this GP. Unfortunately, I didn't get the empathy that I was hoping for. And I was listing all of these things and saying I don't feel like myself and I really just want to do detailed blood tests to see what's going on. One of the responses that I got was along the lines of you've never had trouble with your thyroid before, you're fit and healthy, there's no reason to check it. And all these other things as well where no I can't do that for you, we can't check that, you're underage. And it was really heartbreaking and I was called argumentative because I was pushing for I don't feel well, I really want to check my blood, so I can see what's my next step forward because I was kind of guesstimating what's going on and adjusting accordingly. So I left that consult in tears because I felt so overwhelmed with I have no help. She agreed in the end to check my thyroid because I've never had that test done before. There were some tests that she didn't agree to check. So I found a way around the system to do my own bloods. And I ordered them online out of pocket because I really wanted detailed bloods to see where I'm at. And it took me about a week, a week and a half to go get these bloods done. It was really interesting the timing of everything, like I'm a big believer in call it what you want, Divine timing, everything in its own time, God's timing, I believe everything happens in its right time when it's meant to happen. So at the time, I was actually in what I can now identify as a relationship with a narcissist. In the time, I didn't see it. All I knew was my body was having these reactions. And I felt very agitated, but also on edge. And as my health was unfolding my health journey with my thyroid, so was this relationship with the narcissist. And I was taking note of hang on a minute, his words are not matching his action. Hang on a minute, he's being hypocritical here. So he can do this, but I'm not allowed to do this. So what's going on here? And I just felt there was something wrong with this person. And I couldn't figure it out. On the day that I did my blood test result was the day that he had an anger outburst over the phone. That's when the puzzle pieces all clicked together. When he had this huge anger outburst over absolutely nothing. And that's when I was like, I need out. This person is poisoning me. I really feel like there is something even more going on here. I don't know what it is, but I will find out soon. Three things cannot be hidden the sun, the moon, and the truth. Big believer in this as well. So the day that I drew my bloods was the day that he had his anger outburst. And three days later, I get a phone call that my GP wants to discuss the results with me. So straightaway, I'm like, something's up. If a GP wants to discuss your blood test results with you. Usually, that's something that they want to highlight to you. So I bypassed the GP visit, which was in another two days, but I go straight to the nurses and I asked for my blood test results to be released to me. So I got my blood test results before my meeting with the GP. I saw my thyroid is underactive, slightly underactive thyroid, okay. Now looking at it, I'm very clear on she's not going to give me medication because it's not full-blown, it is underactive. Interesting to see what she's going to say. But first of all, I do my own research, I contact my trusted naturopath, I contact my trusted chiropractor who also does acupuncture and Eastern medicine, I contact an acupuncturist, few people that I have on hand. And I basically wanted to make sure that the approach that I wanted to take was in line with their thinking as well because I have my own bias. So I wanted to make sure looking at the thyroid, looking at supplements and herbs that are going to support this sluggish thyroid and also looking at this is the throat chakra. This is in Eastern medicine, the throat chakra, which is poisoned by lies very, very interestingly, within the next 24 hours, I found out that my ex-boyfriend that I didn't know he's a narcissist at the time, I find out that he was also lying and cheating on me throughout the whole three months of this experience. And I'm like this person was literally poisoning me with their lies and they're cheating. I need to cleanse myself of this and like really big red flags along the way that to me, yes, it was a red flag but also I fully acknowledge that I went into this experience. I chose this experience for the lessons that I'm sharing with you today. They are lessons to me. So yes, it is a giant red flag that I borrowed him money. Okay, it is a giant red flag but he lost his job and I decided to borrow him money. At the time he presented himself very well, I didn't know at the time that he can't hold a job for more than three to four months because he never told me this. I found this out in later from other sources. I didn't know much about him, but what he was telling me I was trusting him so much. One of my biggest values is trust, honesty and loyalty. So, now I have my results. My thyroid is underactive. I've decided to support it with herbs and spices, and food intake looking at what's going to help me. But also, this person is lying, this person is cheating on me possibly with multiple women. He has my money, I need to get my money back. My body is in fight or flight mode, full-blown sympathetic nervous system. So let's just dial back when it comes to the nervous system, we have the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic is the fight or flight or freeze response. The parasympathetic, your rest and digest friend, uh, tend and befriend. So your parasympathetic nervous system is responsible for your immune system, for your reproductive system, for your thyroid function, and for your digestion, your sympathetic all about fight or flight. For the past three months looking back, I could see that I had been freezing, when he would say, I'll stop the car right now leave you on the side of the road, I would freeze, I wouldn't fight back. Because I promised myself I would never yell, I would never call him names, I would never fuel the fire. I wanted a different response in this relationship. And I didn't know what that different response would be. So I just kept freezing, freezing up shutting down, freezing up, sometimes I would cry, and I would get absolutely no empathy. And then that would make me cry even more, because I was like what is going on here. So really, what I can see looking back is the freeze response. I was in fight or flight freeze those whole three months, which led to my thyroid actually being underactive because the thyroid is the parasympathetic nervous system. Now I was in fight or flight mode after I realised I need to get out of this relationship, and I need to cut cords, and I need to heal my thyroid. But I really want to highlight that it didn't happen straightaway. I couldn't just drop into the parasympathetic nervous system straightaway, because I'm still heightened. I'm still thinking, I need to get my money back and I need to get out of this relationship. How am I going to do this, that underactive thyroid turned out to be the biggest blessing in my life at that time. I used it to call him up. And I was emotional and I blew it even more out of proportion. So I made him think, I need you to be the man right now, give me back my money so that I can go do my treatments because my thyroid is giving up. I was fully emotional crying and putting responsibility onto him to get me my money back. So he took this very seriously because he this was also a trait of narcissism is that he's the man he needs to be providing for his woman. So really, really sad way that he actually got my money back was by sleeping with other women and begging them for money. It the whole, like, I was really angry about everything. And then you can see now that it's been probably two months all up now, I went through huge waves of emotion through 10 days, huge waves of emotions, and then it slowly settled. But I absolutely was furious. I was angry and I was screaming into a pillow. I was screaming in my car. I have friends that witnessed me scream. I was talking to my mom over the phone and I was screaming. He was cheating on me throughout probably a month before I broke up with him. And that's like for me, I this was the first time I'd experienced this. And like I said because my values are so strong in honesty and loyalty. I couldn't imagine that I didn't know that these people exist that they could lie so much. So I was sharing my truth with my friends. I had about five to ten people that I had on call, especially my mom was there whenever I needed her. Like I literally told her those last seven days like mom I need you 24/7. When I call you up, I just need to talk because those last seven days in front of him, I was normal. Because I needed my money back and I wanted to get out of there safely without any drama. You never call out a narcissist on their behavior. They're just gonna manipulate you back and he was manipulating and gaslighting me throughout the thing like looking back I can see it. Overall, like this is also concentrated, Anthony, I was in this experience for three months. A month and a half into the relationship, I was like something's wrong with this person. I started journaling and writing down because I felt like something is wrong. And then things that he would say would not match what I was writing down as the experience and I was like what is this person doing? I didn't know about gaslighting until this. I was like, Oh wow, this is really serious. And that freeze response is what also got me because I was like, why am I freezing? What's going on? What is this freeze response? But later I learned that the freeze response again is just another survival mechanism. When a prey is captured by a predator, it will freeze so that the predator thinks that it is dead. Predator will leave the prey, go walk off, and this will give the prey just enough time to get up, shake it off and run away. It is a survival mechanism. Now, I've learned throughout this experience that I am predisposed to thyroid issues. When I experienced the fight, flight or freeze, my thyroid goes underactive, my digestion was also screwed up. My digestion which goes hand in hand with the thyroid symptom of an underactive, sluggish thyroid is also constipation. However, because now I was in fight-flight mode, I couldn't tolerate much protein, at all. I had so much adrenaline in my body, I was eating cornflakes and banana sourdough toast. I was pushing myself to eat some protein because I was also running, I picked up running. 14 years of my life I didn't run, prior to that I trained athletics for seven years between the ages of 7 and 14. No running for 14 years, all of a sudden, I have so much adrenaline in my body. I'm running 5 to 10 K's every morning. So you can imagine that has caused some issues with my foot and my hip because I went all out. And um just the ligaments I couldn't take it because it was so much pressure. But also, again, highlighting I couldn't go from being it fight-flight freeze mode to rest and digest to calming down straightaway. I was in a very real situation. I was getting my money back. I was getting myself out of that relationship, out of that danger that I felt. A very big threat because I also didn't know, I didn't know this person very well and how aggressive he could get. I had that one phone call with him where he was very aggressive and I said, I don't want to witness anymore. That's enough. And that's where you really need to be strong in your boundaries and strong in your values and strong in what you deserve and what are you worthy of. Well, it was very clear to me that I am worthy of much better treatment than this. So the last seven days, really hard in front of him. I'm again, I was very careful not to tell lies, but rather to just, the way that I viewed it was I have this person who is a very loving person sometimes, but has a completely other side that I don't know to them. So when I was saying my goodbyes, I was saying my goodbyes to the loving person. I was crying in front of him, knowing that this person is lying and cheating, getting my money back by sleeping with other women. In my head that was going on, but in front of him, I was just crying and I was saying, I'm emotional. I have my period, it's hormones, it's the thyroid. Part of thyroid function being underactive can also, so actually, I have an issue with iron. I've had an issue with iron absorption for years, possibly exacerbated by the breast implants, I don't know still investigating. Also because I'm so athletic, athletes tend to run through iron much quicker, but my iron was also low in my ferritin. And last year, I had my first iron infusion. So when the iron results came back as low again, ferritin low again, my GP confirmed and was happy to give me another iron infusion six months after my first infusion. So there is some sort of a correlation there between iron and thyroid as well. Possibly when you're unable to absorb iron, your thyroid will go down. So if we're thinking about metabolism now, the human body needs certain vitamins and minerals in certain amounts in order to function at its optimal level. So I'm not absorbing iron so my thyroid is not functioning at its optimal level. I'm really struggling. There's those functions that are really struggling in my body because I need iron. So I go and get my iron infusion. I make this person drive me to my iron infusion, drive me back home. Again, never called him out of his behaviors. I got my money back in two lots. It was such a relief when I saw the money back into my account the day before my iron infusion, because my plan was, okay, you're gonna take me to my own infusion, bring me home and then I'm gonna dump you. Literally, that's exactly what happened. Took me to my iron infusion. We came back home in front of my house and I just said, you would never hurt me, would you? This relationship is over. I'm leaving you. You know what you did. And I walked out. He tried to say something. I didn't engage, went straight to my house, locked the door. That was it. Never heard from him again. Now, he tried to reach out later but then he saw that I basically called him a liar and a cheater everywhere. And then he can't face the problem like me. I'm a problem now because I know the truth and I share the truth. And that was a big relief. And then between my blood test and my second blood test that was 19 days to almost 20 days, 19 days between when I took my bloods out first, which told me I have an underactive thyroid. And then 20 days later, 19 days later, I took my bloods out again to check my thyroid function again. In between, in those 20 days, so about three weeks, I left this person. I was doing oxygen tank, so I was inhaling pure oxygen in a wellness center and I was doing cryotherapy as well. I was doing total body cryotherapy and I was doing also cryotherapy localised for my foot because my ligaments were starting to hurt because of all the running and the adrenaline. So cryotherapy, it was going down to minus 140. It uses liquid nitrogen. So it is a different feeling to ice baths, but it works on the same sort of a principle. It's about lowering inflammation and helping the body heal. I prioritise the oxygen during the time that my thyroid was underactive, because that helps also all the cells in your body heal. And it's a very much more mellow and chill kind of a, you're in a bit of a Zen. I even fell asleep a few times in that tank. And then I was also supporting my thyroid with, like I said, those thyroid-supporting supplements. The biggest thing when it comes to Eastern medicine, understanding that the thyroid is localised in the throat chakra, all about telling your truth, all about removing yourself from those lies. 20 days later, my results came back. My thyroid was healthy. Another thing. Yeah, just another thing when it comes to the GP, like I already knew my results, but I asked her, like, do you have any suggestions? Do you have any recommendations? What do I do now that my thyroid is underactive? I already had my plan, but I wanted to hear what she was going to say. Watch and wait. Your thyroid is not in treatment area. I can't give you medication, but we need to watch and wait, wait and watch. If it gets worse, that's when we give you Thyroxine. And that was such a disappointment to me. No recommendations on nutrition, movement, meditation, psychologists even, what's going on in your life. Nothing. And this is where I also believe that it's not their fault. They're only taught as much as they're taught and they only know as much as they open themselves up to know. Had I stayed at the level that I was taught at uni, I wouldn't know anything about what I'm sharing with you today. I wouldn't have understood my body and what it went through. I wouldn't have understood the healing process. I wouldn't understand the importance of the emotions that I felt, the importance of expressing those emotions rather than suppressing them. The body is meant for expression. Emotions being neuropeptides in the body, emotions being actually having a chemical makeup that accumulates in the body. I wouldn't understand that we can actually work on excreting these chemicals, which negative emotions can cause disease. The body is out of ease, dis-ease. So when it comes to a lot of GPs, I encourage people to look for holistic, integrative, lifestyle medicine type of GPs. And at the end of the day, also understand that, look, they're good for what they do. There is a time and a place when we need medication. There is a time and a place when we let the surgeon do what they do best. And it's taking that holistic approach, right? In this example, in this true life story that I gave you, I'm using Western medicine. I go and do my blood test. I go and talk to the GP, but I'm also tapping into Eastern medicine and I'm using the supplements and I'm using modern day technology, that oxygen tank, the cryotherapy, the holistic approach to healing. And helping the body do what it does best. The body always wants to be in equilibrium. It always wants to work at its peak performance. It always wants to do its best.
Anthony Hartcher:
about what are the signs that someone should look out for that they're being gaslit? You mentioned that you you were blinded at the time when you're being gaslighted and now you're aware of it. So I'd love you to share that with the listeners.
Kathy Ozakovic:
Yeah. So gaslighting in its very, like, I also want to highlight, go and research Dr. Ramani is her name. She has literally her whole life worked with narcissists and narcissism. And she's got two good books and a great podcast to help you. 1 in 6 people are narcissists, 1 in 6 people. Now the scale is very different. So we have narcissists that have absolutely no empathy, whatsoever. And we have narcissists that have very low empathy. And also when they are being empathetic, it doesn't, really, there's no authenticity to it, doesn't sound like there's minimal again, still, it's like, I'm not really sure that that was really sincere. So like when he would apologise to me it was like there's an apology, but there's always a but, if, you know, kind of taking it back with all of that. For example, he said that my calluses on my hands are not sexy, and being an athlete like calluses. I've had calluses from when I was a kid, I used to do monkey bars when I was a kid like this is just normal for me. What do you mean my calluses are not sexy, but for me, it was a very real, like, hang on a minute, like you take care of the rest of your body. Why don't you take care of your calluses? And I was like, I'm really confused right now. This is not sounding very nice. And then later, when I asked him to apologise for this, he said, but there's one thing I never bring up. What do you mean, I never bring up your breast explant scars. My head was, I was so confused that I had to go ask my neighbor, what did he mean when he said he never brings up my explant scars? Oh, he's actually saying he's being empathetic. So he actually really thinks that your breast explants' scars are hideous. And that's like, oh, okay. No empathy whatsoever, right? Always needs to be the best, always needs to look the best, always feels that his story needs to be the better version as well. Because one of the things he used to say was, you're always, you're always one-upping me. I'm always one-upping you. What do you mean? I'm always one-upping you? Well, every story I tell you always have to tell a better story. It's like, well, maybe my life was just a little bit better than yours. I don't know. I was just sharing honestly, just sharing parts of my life. I didn't think it was a competition. I thought we were just sharing, one-upping you? And it was just really odd things to me that I was like, I don't understand. But when it comes to the gaslighting, gaslighting is when a person works to break down your sense of reality.There are different ways that a person can gaslight. And later I found out that this person, when they were in a previous relationship, actually used to move things around the house and then say, that wasn't there. Again, why I started journaling and writing things down, which was really funny story about the journaling as well, but things didn't match up, he would say one thing but I have journaled, oh, something else happened, wait a minute, this is not adding up. So he would say things like, that was your perception. Not my intention. I would never hurt you, I love you. That was your perception of what I said. It's not actually what I said. Hang on a minute, but when you said that, my feelings were hurt, like, I remember feeling hurt and crying. Looking out the window and crying and you didn't even ask how am I. And you didn't even think that that was going to be hurt, right? Also, so that was the biggest one that he used to use was that was your perception, not my intention, I would never want to hurt you. What else did he use to say? Using, also using things that I would tell him, were my experiences before. That's the other one he used to do. You're comparing me to your ex, I'm like, I haven't even mentioned my ex, you don't know anything about my ex. I don't even talk about him. How am I comparing you to my ex? It's like chalk and cheese. Because I'm such a conscious person. And I've done so much work on myself when he would bring these things up. Like these are the reactions that I would have in my head, I would be completely just observing him. I took everything as an experiment. I was like, I just want to get to know this person. I'm just observing here. I'm the observer. I'm just taking note of his behaviors and his actions and his words. Then he also said, um, that's your reality. That's not my reality. And now if you've done a little bit of neuro-linguistic programming, you start to pick up on these things and the way that he was talking to me, I remember one conversation we had I was like, you want NLP shout out to me right now. I am so confused. When he left I realised this is a person that has never done NLP in their life and has no idea what it is. What is he doing to me to make me feel so confused? And that's one of the signs of gaslighting is huge confusion. That's when I realised he is manipulating me. A real sign of manipulation and gaslighting is that confusion. Again, actions are not matching words. He's convinced, they convince you and I'm using him because my experience was with a male, but there are women who are narcissists as well and can do this as well. Basically, they also, there are different types of narcissists and this person was a grandiose and vulnerable narcissist, depending on the circumstances. So when they had a job when everything was going good, they were grandiose, they were better than everybody else. When they lost their job, suddenly, they're vulnerable narcissists. And there was a lot of blame, excuses, denial. That's what I picked up on. Because that's an acronym that I kind of use to identify where people are on their journey, BED. Are they in BED? Blame, excuses, denial? Or do they take the ORA of their life? You know, they're steering their own way by taking ownership, responsibility and accountability. So this person constantly, I was just like, blame-excuses-denial, blame-excuses-denial, again. So that was kind of also, that was my red flag to me. I was like, I can't have conversation with this person. We're not on the same level, we're not on the same frequency. Use whatever terminology you want. But feeling manipulated, feeling like it wasn't it wasn't matching, feeling very confused, deflecting, a lot of deflecting, there was so much deflection. And what I'm really proud of is that I never called him out on his behavior, but also never called him out I was deflecting. He would think that I forgot something and we would just brush over the topic. No, no, no, no, no, no, I was taking note of everything, uh-huh, skipped this conversation, skipped this conversation, doesn't want to talk about this either. Right? So I was taking note of all the things that were important to me. And he would not show any empathy and would not want to talk about it again, and would think that I was very silly and things like that. A lot of deflection also kind of making it seem as if it was your fault. Like, again, like your reaction to the situation. It's your fault, not his and what he said. And I say, Oh, wait, but what you said was hurtful. I'm, um, I want an apology here. Like can, are you able to say I am sorry? And again, without the ifs and the buts and the explanations, and it's your perception. That's out of taking responsibility. Right? Coming back to blame, excuses, denial is inability to take responsibility for their actions, so they can't apologise. Like if I'm in the wrong, I'll apologise. I'll put my hand up first, I was in the wrong there. I'm sorry, I hurt you. And the, that's pretty much the gaslighting is breaking down your sense of reality, you're really confused. Are you being manipulated? And the deflecting as well is a big one. How would
Anthony Hartcher:
you deal with it now Kathy, if you, you know, experienced another such relationship where you could, you know, see that this person's gaslighting me and how would you better deal with it now?
Kathy Ozakovic:
I think I did. Again, in the time, I didn't know at the time, like, I did a week or two of research afterwards on narcissism to really understand what I've been through. And they, one of the things that I kept repeating even now was never call a narcissist on out on their behaviors, because they're just gonna deflect and make it seem as if it's you, not them. I never called him out. I was just observing. And I was just, you know, let people show you who they are. And had I called him out on his cheating, it would have come back to, well, that's because blah, blah, blah, blah, or how do you know that, that you're violating my privacy, they're always going to come up with something to deflect and to make it seem as if it's you. And also, they want you to feel the fire. So there's this real game being played, where they want you to overreact. They want you to look crazy, they want you to go mad, because then they can put the spotlight on you being crazy. I didn't give him the satisfaction of being able to do that, by remaining calm. In private, like I said, in private, I was screaming in pillows, in the shower, in the car, over the phone to my mother, but he never heard me scream or yell. My voice was giving out how much I was screaming. He never heard me scream to the very time that I broke up with him and just said, this relationship is over. You know what you did with the flattest, kindest kind of like, a just low tone. And that that's, so, sorry.
Anthony Hartcher:
Yeah, I was just going to say that the approach that you took is still the approach you take today. In essence, yeah. Is that for a safety point of view? Like as you said, like, if I were to challenge him, it would just come back to me or just add fuel to the fire. And there's an element that I'm thinking that this could explode, right? So, you know, if you had responded with fire, you get more fire back. And I was just thinking that can get in a real dangerous situation. So from a safety point of view, the way you were responding intuitively was the right response.
Kathy Ozakovic:
Absolutely agree with you there. And this is where Dr. Ramani also says anybody who's capable of domestic violence is a narcissist. So the two are linked very much. And I don't know what this person is capable of. So intuitively, like you said, don't fuel the fire and don't engage, just focus on getting out of there, focus on staying safe, focus on your plan. That's what it was for me and I was focusing on stay calm, stay cool, stay collected, get your money back, get out of there. So what you focus on is what you're going to find. So let's focus on peace. I just want my peace. This person is not giving me peace, this person is poison. Let's go. And then they talk about, I think, yellowstoning as well. But basically, it means minimal conversation. 1 in 6 people is considered narcissistic, or narcissist, again, there's that very big empathy kind of scale. So when you think about that, you probably have family and friends in your life that you won't be able to get rid of. However, you can minimise the conversation, you can minimise the communication and the contact, and you can keep it very surface based. When it comes to these people, whatever you tell them, they're going to use it against you. So become very aware of their behaviors, it's, again, a little bit of intuition. If you've ever felt like you're going to feel off, there are people in our life that you just feel off around and you're like, I don't really feel comfortable sharing this much with this person, you don't have to. And there's a reason you feel like that. And it's a choice for you how much you share, understand that that is your power, take your power back, set up those boundaries, decides, who are your people that you have a close communication with, that you trust, that are trustworthy. And who are the people that maybe they're in your life for the rest of your life, or they're family or friends and they live, live close, maybe, but you're just gonna be a little bit more, hi, bye, how are you, how are you, everything good, okay. Just that kind of a surface level.
Anthony Hartcher:
And it sounded like the journaling was a big part of your ability to cope. Like it was really helping you understand the situation, gain back your reality in a sense that, you know, they're trying to distort the reality and make you feel that, you know, you're to blame and you're to blame for everything. And, uh, but you, by you doing the journaling, you're seeing that there was a bit of a contradiction and a bit of, you know, you're you're not honoring your word. And you, so you started to see it through the journaling, right? Yeah,
Kathy Ozakovic:
the journaling, like I said, a funny story actually started, I started this journal as a very loving journal. The idea behind it was, I'm going to start journaling so that I have this notebook filled with memories of the two of us together, so I can give it to him for his birthday, a very loving idea. And then it transitioned from being very loving to you know what, I'm going to write down the tiff that we have just a little tiff that we're having with things that we're not agreeing on, so that I can show how we grew in our relationship. Well, those tiffs started to turn into the confusion and the hurt and the sadness that I was feeling, and the lack of empathy. And the hang on a minute, he's saying one thing doing another and then as I understood more, I would go back. So I was writing with a black pen. When he had his aggro, phone call outburst, I went back into my journal with a red pen and started circling things that was like this is a red flag, hang on a minute, what did he mean when he said this, and I started, started taking off the rose-colored glasses, and I put on 20-20 vision glasses, and I was now looking at everything, which also I really want to highlight when it comes to this kind of a journaling as well and the journey. It's really nice idea to do it for the both of you and to have this kind of a journal of your relationship to show how you've grown. But what this really highlighted was how important it is to balance it. Include the tiffs, include the arguments, include the things that you don't agree with. Balance, not just all the lovey-dovey stuff. Let's actually have a look, are we collaborating here? Or is one of us losing really badly, always. What's going on?
Anthony Hartcher:
And that's very much behind Eastern medicine, isn't it? It's the yin and the yang. And they're always intertwined in tangled together in any given moment. And so that's what you're pretty much sharing is that the relationships, there's, there's battles, and there's, you know, positive moments and not so great moments and, but that's the relationship and as you said, you wanted to create a, well, share a reality of what a relationship is like, and how it can evolve. But obviously, through that work, you started to untangle what you're going through and experiencing and starting to realise that hang on a sec, I'm, he's making me feel this way, but it he was the one that created this situation. Yeah, like but I'm the one experiencing the emotion and, and, and so I guess it really helped you get out of the relationship, in essence, because you're able to see your blind spots, as you said, you know, you started with the rose, the rose goggles, the rose glasses, and then you finally found your 20-20 lens.
Kathy Ozakovic:
Yeah. And like I said, I believe that everything happens for a reason. And God put me in that position where actually I had a neighbor and a friend who had been in a relationship with a narcissist and a marriage for 20 years. She was the one that first saw my confusion and was like, read this article about gaslighting, you've kind of seems like he's doing it to you, but you just read she just kind of direct she just sent the link. And once I have a read of this, and then come talk to me if you want to, there was no pressure there was, it was just, she needs to experience as far as self and have her own what is going on here. Right? So that was again a blessing I had her to reach out to, but also I had another friend who had been in a relationship with a narcissist for two years, and I had only met her last year before my whole experience. Again, they were picking up on the red flags before me, but they were there to support me when I took off those rose-colored glasses. Because naturally when you start off in a relationship, it's lovey-dovey love bombing. And this is the thing where the fairy tale start also looks like the love bombing, like fairy tale relationships are a real thing. It does happen. People do fall in love fast and hard and then go off and have a happy life. It does happen. And it's very important that when you've been through such an experience, like I have now to know let go of that, like it's still possible. And being again, that balance of also this love bombing, gaslighting, manipulating thing happens too so just be aware. And when it comes to that ying and yang that you talked about, ying and yang balance each other out. That's the whole thing. But what we had going on here was it was a real power play where he was overpowering me, right? So it wasn't a nice balance. It was a push pull. I'm freezing, I'm having all these symptoms in my body. My body and my health is my biggest barometer of what is going on. And that's a blessing as well that over the years, I've been able to teach myself to question my body, what are you telling me what is going on here? And as I kind of silenced with the journaling, I was able to silence his noise, able to silence what he was telling me and really go in and ask myself what is going on here.
Anthony Hartcher:
And you also able to express yourself through the journaling. So as much as you were just listening and observing in the in the situations, in the moments, you'd go away and then express how you were feeling through the journal, right?
Kathy Ozakovic:
Yeah, it was really important for me to also reach out to my psychologist and have that conversation with her and what was going on. I was also listening to Audible that kept my mental health really strong and sharp. I would, listening to things that were motivating me, because like I said, it took some time to untangle. It took some time to get out of there. And what are those things that you're doing to support your body? For me, it was my underactive thyroid, to support your mind that you're staying sharp and that you're understanding because he's still trying to manipulate me. He's still trying to skew my reality. He's still trying to live a happy, bubbly life where he's not cheating on me because that would make him look really bad. He didn't know that I knew the whole truth. And that was, that was my power. Knowing the truth was my power. So let's not give that away. Right? And then keeping my spirit strong as well. I was praying and meditating. A lot, a lot a lot.
Anthony Hartcher:
It's really great how, you know, you've, uh, you've shared this topic today. Obviously, it was, you know, the relationship that was, you know, challenging and you know, providing that fight-flight response, but then how you were able to help the body get back into balance through holism in terms of looking after your nutrition, doing your exercise, doing your spirituality, as you said, your mindfulness, your prayer, praying. So you've been able to incorporate all these tools that you've acquired over the years that have really helped you recover and be in a safe position out of the relationship and more insightful around future relationships. So it's really empowered you, so I really appreciate you coming on and, and sharing the story and really highlighting key things that people need to look out for in relationships and how to respond in the better respond in the moments as opposed to fuel the situation and make it worse. And you've shared some really good tips here so I really appreciate the story, share, sharing the openness as you do Kathy and it's been great to have you on. How can the listeners best connect with you if they want to reach out and further, you know, maybe seek your help around this?
Kathy Ozakovic:
I've got Instagram send me an email kathy@nufitwellness.com.au. My website is nufitwellness.com.au. And I really want to highlight what you said there about, it, like, it took years to develop these skills. And it's been a journey for me through wellness as well, which is why repetition is the mother of skill Jim Rohn or repetition is the mother of mastery is Tony Robbins's interpretation of that as well. Repetition, repetition repetition, the more you do something, the better you get at it. And that's that trial and error and correction as well. The more we invest into being our best selves, the quicker you're going to get at bouncing back. I have a radar now for narcissism and I can protect myself and be aware. And it's also being gentle with yourself and for a while, I just want to share this as well for a few weeks after I got out of the relationship I was very hesitant around anyone. Give yourself the grace and the time and so gently with yourself when you've come out of such experiences and do seek guidance and help with someone.
Anthony Hartcher:
Thanks for sharing your insights Kathy. It's been a, you know, wonderful that you've come on and opened up and really share such deep meaningful and things that the listeners can also watch out for and then you know apply and, and get helpful and know what to look out for. So thank you so much, Kathy, I really really appreciate you coming on the show again.
Kathy Ozakovic:
Thank you.
Anthony Hartcher:
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