Refik Anadol

“[In the future] I believe that the buildings will dream, the buildings will remember.”

In the latest episode of Endless Vital Activity, David Johnston speaks with Refik Anadol, media artist, director and visiting researcher at UCLA’s Department of Design Media Arts.

Johnston and Anadol discuss the intersection between the spiritual, virtual and physical realms, data as an art form and how Refik challenges the conventions of art with his public space data sculptures.

Transcript

David [00:00:11] Welcome back to Endless Vital Activity, conversations to inspire radical action. I'm David Johnston, founder of Accept & Proceed. At Accept & Proceed we believe the cross pollination of minds and ideas is vital and we can't find solutions in isolation. So, connection and collaboration are critical. Throughout this series, we will engage in wide ranging conversations with radical thinkers, artists, scientists and activists about the problems we have been given to solve. We are seeking new perspectives to reimagine our world's. Today, I'm talking to Refik Anadol. Born in Istanbul and now based in Los Angeles, Refik is a media artist and director, using data to imagine a whole new world. Exploring the space between digital and physical, building a relationship between consciousness and space, he creates parametric data sculptures which manifest as public art. Watching Blade Runner at a young age was in many ways the foundation of his creative awakening. Refik is fascinated by ideas that close the distance between dreams and reality, and his positive mindset has really enabled him to create new ways of seeing, experiencing and understanding the invisible in our worlds. I love chatting to Refik about new aesthetic languages, what designers can learn from machines and how we can imbue spaces and architecture with the ability to dream and even hallucinate. 

David [00:01:39] I'm really interested in your thoughts on clairvoyance, because you are one of sorts, you know, I'm struck by the previous conversations you've had and the discussions around this idea of remembering the future. And on a quantum level, as far as I'm understanding it, every moment contains every potentiality. So, in that respect divisions we imagine and create can all be manifest. And I love this idea that we're steering life in the direction that we want it to go with our work. And I'm keen to know, I don't know how comfortable you are with both the kind of, I guess, spiritual and mystical realms, as well as the virtual and physical. But, you know, what are your thoughts about the potentiality of clairvoyance? 

Refik [00:02:23] So first of all, it's an incredibly important question, I think what you're asking, because I never honestly differentiate both worlds. I think spiritual world where an era maybe when the technology doesn't have the same body of work, what we have or when the science doesn't have the same body of work, but still the humanity was in depth in its own consciousness. So, and I don't think it will be fair if we just ignored that. And as a person believing in knowledge and experience and wisdom, I think it's a pretty predictable, I think a reality that every single knowledge, every single experience is an input I think for humanity. So, I respect the past as much as a future. So, I don't have any problem with going to back. Simply, the process of as a human that I am enjoying a lot is bringing depth to surface and that process, the deeper we can go, of course, the more we can bring surface a depth, right? I think that analogy can only work with the consciousness, with the spirituality and belief systems. So, it's an incredibly important surely to respect to the past and to understand and concerned about the future. And like I was talking with something very funny. And as a media artist, I was very fortunate to work with one of the first Google arts and Mission intelligence residencies and I was very openly sharing this like what will be amazing is in the meeting is not only just an incredible AI scientist or an artist can talk, but what will happen if we have a shaman, a neuroscientist an AI engineer and artists together. What will happen in that imagination cycle was much exciting and it wasn't like wrong, actually. We had one of the deeper conversations in my life. I can say. 

David [00:04:16] Wow. I love the fact you're interested in that area of exploration and I'm really interested that actually you've touched on this idea that you're a very positive and optimistic person and I really get that from the few times we have chatted,  I can feel this great energy from you. And I'm really interested in where that life force comes from for you, you know what drives you and do you have any personal processes that you can share? 

Refik [00:04:42] I think one of the most inspiring moments in…I mean, first of all, I had what I what I found in my humble life is, I had been lost, I had many gained minds and souls I can say, like from my wife to my family. I was, I think, very fortunate to grow up in a very lovely family, a family of lots of teachers. So, first of all, I think that was a very impactful, starting point in my journey. And by the way, as a family with lots of teachers, I think I learnt sharing so much early in my in my humble life. But I think what I also learnt that anything we have in our life that you may have a chance to lose. So that feeling, that emotionally attached and deeply, how can I say transformative loss- such as, I lost my father in my life at fifteen years old, I learnt that my uncle, my second father, unfortunately had Alzheimer’s. I had these really impactful moments happen in my life and the more these are happening, the more I'm learning about the technology algorithms or the code or whatever. But they are started like engage each other, they just start to like, you know, converge the feelings I'm saying like not the experiences. So, I think I'm in this like this mindset for last five years, I can say. And that's one of the interesting practices that whenever my sensitivity to like what may happen, as, I mean very openly, what does it really mean to be a human in 21st century? Eventually unfolds many questions, and each question eventually comes to our personal experience in life. So, what I learnt is simply it doesn't matter how hard the technology is or hardware or software or it doesn't make me exciting unless it says it like human, humanitarian, strong leg or strong discourse or context. So eventually I learnt about meditation and I learnt about especially my wife. I mean, she's a hero and a full supporter of the journey and part of the studio, she's one of my vital, I think, a source of...many things I can say. 

David [00:06:54] Well thank you firstly for sharing that story of your loss of your father and your grandfather. And it sounds well, I'm quite inspired by the fact that loss can inspire gratefulness for what you do have. That's a very positive mindset. In terms of your meditation practice I'd be interested in knowing what form that takes? 

Refik [00:07:15] Right now honestly, I need to develop my own versions because of my life. I think before Covid 19, they say that the life is so fast and something that I think I'm grateful that our work as a studio has been recognised by many countries and many people brings tons of, like, I think, activity in the practice. And I was just looking for this fifteen or ten-minute-long breaks because otherwise, like, honestly, the world demands so much. But time has a very limited context and concept to gain more time or create an elasticity in time, I find that I need to stop it. Like this is very cliché about this neon woman in Matrix, right when he stops the bullets, right? And when he discovers that he can control time as a medium. You know that feeling of like every bullet in the air, he suddenly like discovers. And I clearly remember in the theatre when I saw that moment, like, is it really possible? I feel like meditation is a feeling that you can do that, and you can practice that, so that's my number one exploration to really handle time and space concept in life. 

David [00:08:28] Fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I'm on that same journey. It's interesting because you know, life can be all consuming if you allow it to be, you could work 24 hours a day and still not get everything done. And I'm finding the gaps I'm creating in my life that kind of allow contemplation around the situations that I have are the things that fast track everything. So, it's kind of counterintuitive that you find the space you create actually makes you more productive and your effectiveness more profound. But listen, Refik, I'm really keen to talk to you about data, of course, it's something that we share in common and its part of, you know, Accept & Proceeds' DNA as well as yours. So how did you start working with data and what fascinates you about its significance as the raw material?

Refik [00:09:17] It's a beautiful question. I think when I go back to my practice, I think it was 2009 when I learnt about the software called a V, v, v, v. Now it's an open source I can. say, software that allows you to create visual programming language to use visual programming language in your practice. So, this software and around the software I was witnessing, incredible body of work, but they were pretty much like used in really advance, like commercial presentations of like car companies, mostly in Germany. And but the beauty was the software was so powerful that can read data, it can like manipulate data, it can interpret data. But for me, what was a truly inspiring moment was 2011 I was fortunate to work with- so every year, I'm from Istanbul, Turkey, and then my hometown have every two years I have a Biennale. And this is mostly just trying to go over an immersive city itself as a canvas. And 2011, I was fortunate to get a commission from the Bienalle to create a piece in a street called Issac that street 2011, September was the opening. And in just three weeks, which was a very stressful moment in my life, the curator was pushing me to create a piece of experience on a public space, on a building, because I was using projection in public space all over the Europe around 2019 and 2009 and eleven group of mind, let's say, pushing how to use cultural artefacts in the city. And this street was specifically an enormously well-known by the protest, by the celebrations. There was a religious building. You can hear all the voices or noises again, protest and the happiness. The street was full of everything. And I thought I think sound is a data to capture the Street's DNA. And then I started my journey with the with the data, I get some data and used Grasshopper back in time and transform the sound data off the street. Three days of cumulative sound into blinds. And then our very first time I applied a frame idea around it, that because I was very inspired by…so thanks to my early mentors, Spitter Weibel, who is also a founder of Z Gaiam in Kashmir. I think the one and only place where media, art, archaeology. He was also one of my heroes around that time, speculating about the framing of data, framing an algorithm, framing and hardware and software. So that was the first time I used data in my practice and turned to sound data into a like a landscape. And then S.A.M. the form and put a 40 minute by 40 meter and six-meter depth augmented data sculpture in the public space. 

David [00:12:12] You've come a long way since then, and data visualisation has now become an increasingly important method of visual storytelling over the last decade, I suppose. And you've taken things to another level, Refik, mixing arts and data into visual sculpture, painting and installation. So for me, you know, through my research, you're really challenging the conventions of what art can be. Can you talk a bit about the context of your work and why that's so important? 

Refik [00:12:38] So I think, first of all, what I found is fruitful for me, art is as a definition is the capacity, imagination, capacity of humanity, and that capacity I find that it's getting more exciting when you are on the edge of the capacity of imagination, also edge of technology, because I feel like they have the same symbiotic connections. And what I found super fascinating is, first of all, I think, as we all know, the data is our new language, right? A language between the machine, language between systems, a language that requires… I think it desires to become on an archaeological anthropological like no artefacts is a trace for humanity. So, if you know all this reality, I think data becomes a pure pigment. But the problem for me was turning data into a pigment or intellect or sculpting with that was really challenging. And what I found is that the light was the only material I found that this pigment can find a body of reality. And by the way, around that time I learnt about light and space moments, like Robert Irwin, Dom Flavin, and I also learnt about like many other minds and souls who have been speculating about light as a material and space as a canvas for that. So, I think that was the desire of like I mean, also very, again, childish dream. But I was always dreaming about like what will happen if a space can learn, an architecture can dream. And like always, this is me trying to bring the human consciousness a capacity like to the space, basically special imagination. So, I found that when I when I connect the special imagination and transforming data into a kind of a material and suddenly new narrative just, you know, appeared, I think, last five years. I'm just honestly with my team going trying to go as deep as possible to this new narrative.

David [00:14:43] It's beautifully, beautifully put. And you really are going deep in this narrative. But, of course, your work lives as public art. How do you think about, as with your first piece, you know, you can pick all the way through that journey? How do you think about the audience when creating?

Refik [00:15:02] I think it's an incredibly meaningful question there David, thank you. Because first of all, what I learnt very in my first days, I found that art should be for anyone, any age and any background and any culture. So, I think this statement is really, really heavy. I know. And also, for some elitist minds I think it's also bothers that group of people, because eventually we know that art sometimes relies on some patrons, some minds, and they try to of course, own that moment in life. But I find the opposite way. I mean, they can own it for sure, but I think the first ownership should be for anyone, any age and any background. So, to really fight for this idea, I thought that might I maybe my explorations and practice should not just start in a gallery or a museum. Maybe she'll start in a space called public space, which is for anyone any age. There is no beginning. There is no end. Like there is no door. There is no ceiling. There is no floor. But it was very also challenging because when you make a public art, the statement is for pretty much anyone in that neighborhood. Right. That was heavy, so that's one of the reasons I decided to study at UCLA, the Design, Media, Arts department where I teach last five years. And there I met with my heroes such as Casey Rios, Christian Mueller, Jennifer Stein, Kump and many, many others. And these people and deeply appreciating them. But also, this these people, through mentorship and leadership, allow me to like find those Neeme narratives in public space. And what I also learnt that the data itself as a pigment was not honestly have any practice in the public art scene. So I think what really made me really exciting and also what makes our studio special right now is, we discovered, I believe, a new narrative in the public space by embedding media arts into architecture, but also bringing data as a pigment to the public space with public data. So that practice started five years ago. Right now, the very first piece in San Francisco 350 mission was my first commission, first permanent commission. And then I think we took off from there. And I'm data appreciate that the mantra is to the people who commissioned those early pieces. 

David [00:17:21] Talking about your audience, I've been shown your work by people who've experienced it firsthand many times, excitedly showing me their phones and then walking me through what they've experienced very emphatically. Is that intentional, do you think, about the sharing of your art in the process of creating it?

Refik [00:17:38] Yes, definitely, I mean, very openly, what I found that especially for public art, because it's a public art. I felt that I need to share the data, I need to share the process more. I mean, for private explorations, I'm not sure about that, but especially, for example, a project right now, we finish in Portland, city of Portland. And the city was so generously shared their archives, like their entire photographic archives, like you can go back to like hundred, six, four years back to the city is origin. I mean, archives, materials, documents. It's very intimate moment. It's just like, you know, touching someone's, you know, private moment. By the way, I'm always trying to like not to use any egocentric data, I'm trying to detach ego from data in my practice as much as possible. And that was just one of those moments and I think clearly when you start to work with such an intimate data, I felt also that we had to, like, share more about the process. I wish I could show more, but because of Covid 19, the opening now postponed to August. But that specific project really explores this openness and where data comes from, what are they and where they may go? And I felt that in other public art, protesters in Charlotte, North Carolina, we did a piece for an airport. An airport was clearly expecting...by the way, funny news- five people so far missed their flights because of the impact of the artwork. While we think the flight. But I think what was very funny is I think sometimes when the art touches the mind and a soul in a given time, there is there's serendipity and there's this moment of I think, exciting moment and to make it happen more, that's one of the reasons I'm sharing more behind the scenes, if possible, in those experiences. 

David [00:19:38] Okay, so, can you share your creative process? Where do you start? 

Refik [00:19:43] So I think there's two ways of doing that. There are there are some ideas that is always in my mind, I guess in my imaginations is my childhood, for example, is Mission List Nation series. I mean, that specific series was literally I mean, I clearly remember my first meeting at Google while I was doing my residency, I was just seeing this clearly. Hey, I would love to dip my brush into the mission’s mind, and I really want to paint with mission consciousness, like I was very clearly describing this and that idea, that desire was coming from that research back in like four years ago. But also, there are projects that, for example, in LA Philharmonic, we have a very purposeful journey with L.A. Philharmonic. So, the Frank Gehry, their true hero in my life, I was fortunate to work with him 2014 right after my graduation. But Disney Hall Dreams Project was one of his dream projects. An idea was in my mind, like for a long time, for four years it couldn't happen because it didn't fit into reality and the L.A. Philharmonic was not, you know, ready for such a such a major installation. But for hundred years, for example, it just, you know, fit perfectly. And Frank Gehry suddenly also said, wait, that makes no sense. We are celebrating hundred years now; the building is 15 years. Now we have hundred years of knowledge and experience. You know, like these kinds of moments when they collide a past idea with a futuristic approach that was like very beautiful serendipity. And we also constantly, I think, finding meaningful collaborations when the idea comes completely different. 

David [00:21:23] Did you pitch that as an idea or how did it come about? 

Refik [00:21:28] So then did dream? I mean, honestly, 2012, September, I arrived Los Angeles from Istanbul. I put my luggage in my student home, and the first thing I did was rent a car and go to downtown Los Angeles. 2012. September. I clearly remember I went and see the building because I knew from, I mean, of course, Frank Gehry, Zahiri Tato Ondo, Toyo Ito. I have so much heroes in the architecture field. And his building was one of my, you know, to do list to go and feel and see it. And when I saw the building this, the funny thing was it every night. Around 1.45 am midnight unfortunately, building goes completely dark. And I was literally there at like 1:50 or something. And my dream building was dark. There was nobody, no car, just pure nothingness. And I was shocked that such a lovely building was alone and nothing and, you know, this did strike me that it's...I mean, what will happen? These buildings have suddenly, you know, becomes conscious. So that idea came from there and a speculation and I was also fortunate to get the award from Microsoft Research 2014 and 13 when I submit Bill Gates and now, I'm in his collection, which was a life changing experience. And then I think it took off, that was that was one of those, you know, years. The idea of like an architecture is sensing its environment and giving a purpose and meaning to its own existence. So, it took like four years to make it happen shortly. And then two years ago, decided to, like, commission it. And I challenged them to give me all their hundred years of memories to let the building dream. 

David [00:23:13] Refik. Can you tell me a little bit about your team? 

Refik [00:23:15] I have limitations. I mean, even though as as a creative mind trying to be on the edge of the imagination, I know that that edge cannot be achieved. At least that edge cannot be produced with one only mind. But I always trust the power of collaboration. I always trust that the depth comes to the surface. Once we have enough knowledge in a given time. So, then I started like dream of the studio almost now, six years ago, and after graduation, the first step was opening the studio with a team that I believe has diversity. So, we are not well, people can speak to our language and we can. And basically, we are a neuroscientist, engineers, data scientists, architects, designers and musicians and thinkers, like it's real, like a very diverse group of minds who has this horizontal power of imagination. And it's we are relatively young, like 25 million age. It's really exciting to imagine together. 

David [00:24:19] It's wonderful to hear about your wide team. And yeah, they clearly are a vibrant bunch of creative minds, you know, across the boards. But your collaboration with machines is an important part of the work. What excites you about working with machines and what do you think designers can learn from machines? 

Refik [00:24:38] Oh, it's a beautiful question. So I think first of all, what really enhance me an entire team is it was almost four years ago when I started my residency at Google and and that was like a life changing experience, as I maybe mentioned, that working which one of the leads in India in the field of machine learning algorithms and mission intelligence really enhance our imagination. But also, we saw so many problems, so many like blockage. So, I mean, like, you know, repetitions, for example. First of all, the field, even though it's very open source right now, even though we have an enormous access to like computational power, still there are some blockage and some limitations. For example, the machine learning systems have is a frozen model, reality specific, talking about the generative areas, Hill Networks, which is my specific, I think, look and pattern of imagination. I wish that this tool I mean, first of all, the tool it's the tools you can create with these powerful algorithms can completely and hence the cultural artefacts that can completely reconstruct collective memories and which are really exciting because eventually culture affects the aesthetics and it eventually affects the culture. So, you can find that unique language between the two territories. But also, what is really exciting is if you can fly in the mind of a machine specifically talking, that's it. So, first of all, when Machine learns we know that the machine doesn't require on the three dimensioned machines can mathematically store the information and end dimensions, which is pretty impossible as humans to pursue. But once we have a tool that really tranced codes that end dimensions into three dimensions, which is X, Y, Z, then we start to like to unveil any world and the Maumee floor in three dimensions. The more we fly in that universe; every single step is a new finding. And that's really very beautiful. And I think from a design point of view, since we are always looking for the uniqueness, freshness. And there are some scientific like findings. And I think that will be one of the reasons that eventually minute tools we are using everyday will be completely inspired by these powerful ideations. Right now, it's still very odd, though. Of course, R&D level or some experimental level, but it's really easy to predict that everyday tools we are using as creatives will become very much inspired by, like, you know, like this turbo button off, like mission intelligence. I feel that from the color perspective, from the forum perspective, from the motion perspective, I'm pretty sure that especially Gena visual networks will be extremely helpful for creative minds. And also, I am feeling that from the textual context, from the literature contexts, I think we are becoming also aware that like there are, for example, open eyes too, which is a very powerful neural network that allows you to like, create really compelling, really deep and reach and almost how to distinguish realistic literature outputs, which are completely surreal and very sometimes powerful. I think these are really becoming very unique findings for creative minds. I'm really excited about that. 

David [00:27:57] Wow, what are the current limitations of artificial intelligence? 

Refik [00:28:02] I think the frozen the frozen context of mental model, because eventually. So, first of all, just a reminder for four people, maybe for the first time, imagining when a machine learns these data sets, it unfortunately just locks itself. Right, it locks itself well, a state where it just needs to like, you know, freeze the knowledge, let's say. And it's just kind of not like how we humans imagine. Right, because we have this, we have a consciousness that constantly, like evolves. We constantly learn and has our cognitive capacity in a given time. But for machines, it stops it just freezes and then we just need to assume that that's everything there, which is not close to our mental model of the world. So because I mean, for example, I'm, by the way, super inspired by Foster, who is and the writer of System Dynamics. And he always mentioned his mental model. Speculation's here. I mean, nobody in our in our head imagines an older world, government or country. He says a man has only selected the concepts and relationships between them and uses those presents real system. So, I think the limitation of emissions mind is unfortunately that at the moment, but also, it's predictable that with the quantum computing and many others, there's a massive potential that there's neural networks will be in life. There will be a lie. So just to remind you that the individual networks are two neural networks. They're kind of in this locked in a bottle. So, there's discriminator, which is trying to distinguish real images from fake images. And there is also the generator, which is trying to create images that make the discriminator think they are real. Right. Like there's a dialogue between two neural networks. So, at the end, the generator network is outputting images that are distinguishable from the real images for discriminator. Right. Like this basic like a twin Arrow network imagining that look. So, this is a like a very one time experience. And we are just witnessing the same movie again and again. So that's a limitation, I guess. But in their feature, which is the very soon these neural networks, I think, will become a life. And which is ethically challenging, but also creatively very exciting. 

David [00:30:16] This podcast is really focused on radical ideas around the world we have been given to solve. So, I'd like to ask you Refik, what problems do you think your work solves? 

Refik [00:30:27] Oh, it's a beautiful question. So, I think I have several intentions when I am working with data like now almost nine years. I think the data itself is something. I mean, first of all, I think I want to go back to this feeling of the Freeville. Right. The Freeville is one of the most discussed analogy of like as we all know, we are surrounded by the technology. We are surrounded by like algorithms, decision making machines and minute things. Right. I mean, it's not too hard to imagine that it's pretty predictable to like sometimes where we can go, what we may eat, what we can see, what we can here, what we can do even like so this this is a very major decisions about like our selections in life. So, I feel like once the data becomes a pigment, once a data becomes a context for an artwork for certain audience. It's a very fresh start. And majority, maybe a majority of the world is aware of what data means, what like how machines communicate, how Hovda Nieve World is like moving forward. But for some part of the world, some part of the audience at least I have in my in my practice is is not aware of what's going on. So first. I think awareness and I believe that the people around the artworks, once the data is touching the mind and soul, they are finding new connections, the symbiotic relationship, which is incredibly rewarding. That's what I'm feeling at the social impact, because also I am feeling that the young minds, especially the people who are like trying to find what is next for them, is feeling connected with the technology, science and arts because one three of them connect to each other. There is this sense serendipity in the center of this triangle, and I feel like them. My young audience, I'm calling them right now, or the curious minds who are like trying to find what is next for them is feeling connected with this imagination, with these narratives. And the third, I think, is more like a scientific maybe this time because as a studio, we have been working with wonderful minds from the neuroscience. Also, from Mussad GPL, for example. I think what I learnt is one wants to collaborate with engineers from a different capacity and different backgrounds. We also start to find that the tools we are making can be also used for research purpose. So, at the end of day, maybe the artefact, the output is an artwork, but the process that the tools to make the artwork can be also functional for the people. So, I it three times in mounting memories, which is a which is a project about the neuroscientific data, said transforming the moment of remembering into a piece of experience. Literally, we were able to transform EEG plantings into like kind of a tool that net neuroscientists can use EEG recordings and replaced them, repurpose them by this by this approach. The second one was not the GPL researchers. I mean, once he had this vast terabytes of like every single photo ever taken from Mars, and once you let the machine learn from this entire corpus of the data universe and suddenly a researcher who had been looking at this data was trying to see something never seen before. And that is also another exciting, I think, function. Or for example, recently I got a very. Purposeful message from Imperial College. What was read like a very exciting is Mr. David, HCO and Brendan Good and they were like literally in waiting for a purposeful research with the FMI Ryan, e.g. like basically brains temps of some psychedelics and their retreatment on on the Depression. And they were incredibly doing this research forum for almost a decade. And they are like proving this, and as an artist, I think being able to like work with these mastermind's who had been like imagining the intersection of science and technology, I think our tools are becoming shortly and making invisible more visible. And that's really very exciting for our work. 

David [00:34:19] I'm also really fascinated by how you think about machines and objects and imbuing them with consciousness. So do machines remember, in the same way? You've talked about how they could dream or even hallucinate. But can you unravel that for us? 

Refik [00:34:34] Oh, it's a beautiful question, I think, for me, again, consciousness and the model in the model of reality. And it is I think, when a machine tries to become this collaborator, to narrate the consciousness, to narrate the current life and alternate reality. I think as a collaborator, it kind of unleashes any kind of imagination. I mean, there are neural networks that are literally looking off every single meaning in images. There are neural networks trying to imagine that these predictions, as I said, predicting the eleven seconds before people act. I mean, these are really fascinating stories. But for me, if a machine can learn like ten a dream, it was a very simple question because we have something that can learn at the end. Of course, the speculation, of course, it's not truly like a functioning conscious model. But what I found that when I apply this model to a building, for example, that will say Dreams Project with Frank Gehry, it was a completely exciting finding because what does it do is to put simply, I thought that maybe we can apply this model to a building, an architecture which humanity, which humans inhabit and have a functional moment in life. Then we can speculate it much better, because in that project, what I found that once we have access to, like every single memory pattern of a building, like in this case, elated Harmonic was performing for fifteen years. And I was just saying, what will happen if we have access to every single memory of the institution, like every single photo image, video, drawings, every memory pattern, for an institution, then I think we can speculate it much better. So, I found that to answer this question, the best way is literally use architecture as a canvas and speculate this model of imagination. And I found that once people experience inspiration, events, people, experiences, installations, people, I think get a much more deeper understanding this ideation right now. Of course, a building cannot dream. But like, I think it can listen to it because of it with, I think, a near future when a machine and an architecture connects each other, it's purely predictable that the memories of space, memories of abuse environment can completely become an artefact or a dream for a hallucination. So I think that's one of reason I'm very fascinated by the context of connecting and machines mind with space and what will happen next with that. 

David [00:37:21] Yeah. That's incredibly exciting to think about. I mean, we love the idea of that kind of overlap between technology and spaces and thinking about spaces with a consciousness that could actually kind of morph and change based on the users within it, or maybe they kind of use a pattern from the day before, it could rearrange. I mean, the way that could actually affect retail spaces or art environments or little things like that is very, very exciting to think about. One of the central themes to your work is the symbiosis and tension between people and machines and technology. And part of that is material base in the future, I guess. But in the here and now, how would you describe our relationship to technology? And where do you see that going in the near future? 

Refik [00:38:17] I mean, it's a beautiful, beautiful question, and I think from from many perspectives, I mean, I was, I mean, watching days and like ex machine and I think I've grown land is one of my hero. I think he's depicting this future in a dark way, but it's a very honest way. But I think I'm in a very optimist mindset. I'm in a very, like, positive mindset, and for me, I think this story ends positive, first of all. And that in there, like Ray Kurzweil, is like this drama of singularity. I don't believe that the potential problem of unpredictability, of technology may go. I don't think that that's our, I think that's our future. But I feel like I mean, also, I'm very aware of like the technology in humanity is always there. Right. Like for I mean, for the last Fifteen thousand years, like we are one hundred eight billion people, right. That we have Homo sapiens and I think that we always had the technology in our patterns, right. We found the fire and we cook it and we also create communities around that but with the same technology, we destroy each other, right? We invent the fire and and things that change. And I think that AI, and potentially quantum computing and all of them have a very similar destiny and very similar, you know, predictability. But I think that with the same technology, we can learn better. We can imagine better, we can dream better, we can produce better, we can solve problems better.  So, I think in my in my mindset, I think if we apply these models to how they learn, how to imagine how we create, we have much more potentials than what happens when we find the fire. And that's my hope, that's my positive hope with this technology.

David [00:40:08] It's a beautiful one. And I get your optimism and your positive energy every time we speak. Do you always feel positive Refik, or is there any darkness? 

Refik [00:40:18] Truly, there is, I  think my deep darkness not only comes... I mean, first of all, we know that the ideas in our mind is also in the mind of people who are…sometimes turns into a product. But what I am feeling is maybe art is still a kind of a shamanic experience that maybe used to like, you know, to explore an idea, a technology before it becomes a product like I feel like there's this kind of a very important, you know, distance between, of course, as many creative minds. The whole is all about like our imagination and how like turn our dreams into reality, right and this is from dream to reality is our process. But I think what is really challenging and sometimes is like there are dreams in life in in in an in anywhere in the world that becoming a reality, right. But the access of technology and the do ability with this open source world has equally important for all those dreams and ethical thinking. There are ideas in world that I am, I believe, incredibly important for humanity, but also their ideas are not, you know, exciting in terms of the ethics. Right, I mean, it's not hard to imagine that there will be a machine that can find the people face and do something completely horrible and create that, you know, a machine gun that can do extremely horrible things. But also, at the same time, the same code can extremely used to find the pattern of a cancer cell in image archive. So, what I'm trying to say is we have this extreme spectrum of finding an incredibly purposeful and functioning idea for humanity, but at the same time, this can become something extremely horrible. So that's a fear in my mind that I'm holding it. But also, as I said, I'm hopeful. I hope that humanity will choose to find those other ideas that make the world better, that make the humanity purposeful. 

David [00:42:29] Yeah, you and me both, Refik. OK. The final thing I wanted to ask you- knowing that we were speaking today, I watched Blade Runner again last week, and I was amazed that the date it's set in, which is November 2019. So that's what now was going to look like in 1982. But one thing you've been clear on is an optimistic vision of the future, something which is difficult to grasp, I think, for many who fear the impact of technology. So, tell me, what would the world look like in another 30 years? So, in 2058, let's say, and how do you believe we can have a positive future with machines? 

Refik [00:43:08] That's a beautiful question. I feel like so from multiple perspectives, I feel like the more science and technology cohesively connect and have seen better relationships. It's very predictable that I think we will solve many problems like right now with Covid 19 or many other problems, the speed of data analysis and speed off, like changing, exchanging that knowledge and information and experience. I think this will evolve us into a somewhere where we will find cures for problems much quicker in terms of like this. I mean, from the clinical medicine world, from the like, psychological world, from the psychiatric world. I feel like we will heal much faster. And that's one thing that I'm hoping that they will do in an ethical way. Just, you know, digital rocks, but something that it will be hopefully more purposeful and more, you know, equally distributed. And it's really clear that the decentralized imagination of many things will also make things more equally, I mean, manageable and accessible, which will make I think everyone who had the power will imagine much deeper and have much more purpose and impact in their products and in there. I think ideas which brings purposefulness, which brings, I think more, you know, responsiveness. And the other thing, I believe that the buildings will dream, the buildings will remember. I'm pretty sure that we will have this kind of a very funny maybe a device when we go to a space, it will allow us to say, OK, I want this space to dream for me, or dream with me. I want this space and learn with me. I want the space to become a tool for me, a room with like multiple channels of maybe a light material. We'll turn our imagination into a material. Maybe the space will turn into a tool that can allow me to remember better. I think this kind of cognitive experiences will become a day life patterns. And I hope it will be accessible, too. And the other thing I think will be the libraries, the knowledge. Right now, we are only using maybe a search engine to reach a knowledge. But I believe that that the machine learning algorithms, the mission intelligence will completely enhance our learning. We will come to learn much better, much faster and purposeful. And eventually, I think that the pedagogy of mission intelligence will become an incredibly important part of education. And those are my like, very high level expectations, I guess. 

David [00:45:37] And is there any any kind of overarching message you would like to send out to the kind of creative community, the audience that listens to this podcast? 

Refik [00:45:48] I think one of the most important thing that we are right now is living is the questions. It's pretty clear that the questions are more important than the answers. And I do hope that everyone has equally feel responsible for the tools that we are constantly using every single day. But also, it's I think as Homo Sapiens, right. Last fifty thousand years, we are around one hundred eight billion people right, live and approximately seven billion of this 6.5 Persons are not alive today. I think it's time to be a sense for our future because that's where we will be living together. 

David [00:46:29] That's beautiful, thank you Refik. It's been a fascinating conversation. And I just want to thank you and your team for shining your light into the world. 

Refik [00:46:37] Thank you so much. And thank you for the wonderful insights, dialogue, questions and all. Thank you very much. 

David [00:46:43] My pleasure Refik, you take care.

Refik [00:46:46] Thank you. 

David [00:46:49] Thank you for listening to our conversation today. I hope you found Refik as inspiring as I do. His passion to continually push at the edges of what's possible using technology, combined with an endlessly positive outlook, is very aligned with our mindsets at Accept & Proceed, and I know that he will continue to contribute positively to the arts sector, as well as the world at large. Endless Vital Activity is brought to you by Accept & Proceed. Remember, creativity can reimagine our world.