Embracing Compassionate Intelligence in HR with Kelly Campbell

Discover how the echoes of our childhood can resonate through our leadership styles as Kelly Campbell, author of "Heal to Lead," joins us to unravel the complex ties between past traumas and present-day management techniques. By introducing the concept of compassionate intelligence, distinct from empathy, Kelly illuminates a path toward more self-aware and empathetic leadership. The discussion delves into the four pillars of high conscious leadership, providing listeners with a blueprint for incorporating compassion into their leadership approach, ensuring that the emotional needs of both employees and leaders are met without compromising organizational goals.

Navigating the intricate dance of fostering a supportive work environment while setting healthy boundaries can be as nuanced as choreographing a ballet. This episode tackles the fine line HR professionals and managers walk when they border on counseling roles in the workplace. We explore personal stories of overcommitment and its impact on leadership reliability. Kelly and I also analyze the necessity of establishing boundaries, not only for the sake of professional clarity but also for personal well-being, highlighting strategies to prevent burnout and ensure that leaders can sustainably support their teams.

We close our candid conversation with a heartfelt reflection on the power of vulnerability in leadership and HR. Kelly's personal experiences add an intimate layer to our examination of the often-undiscussed topic of trauma in the workplace. Resources like myhealingmenu.com emerge as beacons for those looking to begin or continue their healing journey beyond traditional talk therapy. This episode offers more than just insights; it's an invitation to transform your leadership narrative through the transformative power of storytelling and shared human experiences. Join us on the Rebel HR podcast for a dialogue that breaks barriers and paves the way for a future where vulnerability is not just accepted but celebrated.

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Chapters

• 0:03 Compassionate Intelligence in Leadership
• 8:17 Establishing Healthy Work Boundaries
• 11:52 [Ad] Virtual Rockstar
• 12:41 (Cont.) Establishing Healthy Work Boundaries
• 18:18 Navigating People Pleasing and Trauma Healing
• 31:25 Breaking Taboos in HR

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, rebel community. This is going to be a fun conversation. Today With us we have Kelly Campbell. Kelly Campbell they are the author of the new book available now, where books are sold Heal to Lead. Revolutionizing Leadership Through Trauma Healing. Welcome to the show, kelly.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Thanks, kyle, it's great to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:34

Well, I am really, really excited to have you here, and this is a topic that we haven't really dug into on the podcast much. We've talked about mental health in general. We've talked about things like psychological safety and making the workplace a secure place to work, but this is going to be a little bit of a new topic. So thanks for joining us and excited to dig into it today.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Yeah, same here.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Well, I'm really excited to talk about it. You know, I know, how challenging writing a book can be, and you know this is no small undertaking. So I'm always curious to ask an author what motivated you to spend the time and energy to write this book. Heal to Lead.

Speaker 2: 1:21

Well, I'll be honest with you that it's been about five years in the making, because I started writing my third book before I started writing my first book, as a lot of people do and then I got some great advice and someone told me that and really said I need to hear your voice.

Speaker 2: 1:37

You know, as a first book, we need to hear your voice, your point of view and really leaning into your lived experience, your expertise, all of it. And it wasn't a huge departure from the first book that I was writing, but my voice is so focal and so present in this one where it really was like one-eighth of the situation earlier. Why I wanted to tackle this particular subject, and that is the correlation between childhood trauma and leadership style, is literally because no one else has talked about this in a direct manner. Like you said, we talk about mental health, we talk about all of these different things. Yes, we bring in psychological safety, so we're starting to sort of you know, I don't know lean into it in certain ways, but we're still distanced from the word trauma, from the idea of healing, particularly in workplace environments, and forget about talking about leaders and the trauma that they may have experienced, which may explain why they're showing up the way that they're showing up. So it felt like the time is really really now for this conversation.

Speaker 1: 2:55

Yeah, that's a really interesting call out, and I think you know the term you use, I think was dancing around you know the this topic and and the reality is it's, you know, it's kind of like we've corporatized trauma a little bit right, like we've packaged it into something that's that's mildly comfortable for some, uh, within the world of work.

Speaker 1: 3:17

But but you know the the reality is, I think there's still a lot of kind of hesitation to really be open around the topic of trauma and you know a little bit of, I would say, you know, fear to like to actually open up honestly and give our employees the opportunity to open up, you know, kind of in a really, you know, maybe emotional way in the workplace. And so one of the things that we want to talk about, you know, a little bit today we were talking before I hit record as it relates to an HR professional or a people leader in the workplace is something that you call compassionate intelligence, and so let's start the conversation there. You know what is the concept of compassionate intelligence and how. So let's start the conversation there. What is the concept of compassionate intelligence and how do you find that applicable in the world of work today?

Speaker 2: 4:12

So let me back up a little bit and tell you about the four fundamentals of high conscious leadership, because compassionate intelligence sits sort of as a subset under one of those. So in the book I talk about these four fundamentals, the first one, in my opinion, being the most important, because it's the way that we develop self-awareness, which is really trauma integration, integrating our emotional wounds, our psychological wounds from when we were younger, our formative years, obviously lays the groundwork for us to become really healthy leaders, really self-aware, comfortable with vulnerability, which is the second fundamental right Embodying, actually not just comfortable with vulnerability, but really embodying it, having it be part of our way of being, so that vulnerability doesn't feel like, you know, an awkward share. It becomes part of the way that we operate and the way that we speak and the way that we interact with others. And the third fundamental is leading with compassion. I specifically did not say leading with empathy, and the reason for that is because empathy, while it is wonderful and it's a great quality that many leaders you know many effective leaders have, empathy, is really about feeling with someone else, right. Compassion takes that a step further and essentially it's feeling with and then taking supportive action on behalf of. And then the fourth fundamental is lighting the way for others. So that's the framework.

Speaker 2: 5:51

And then, if we go to this third fundamental leading with compassion the number one question that I'm going to get from leaders, from HR professionals, from people operations is really well, how do I know that I'm not leaning too far in from a supportive perspective? Right, like, what is that line? Because there is a line. And so this basic framework for what I'm calling compassionate intelligence, which is, yes, have compassion, but be smart about it. Right, be rational about it.

Speaker 2: 6:23

There's essentially three different questions that I say sort of come into play in how HR and people leaders can think about this. What does the employee need is question number one. What do I need as their supervisor or their director or their HR professional or their leader? And then, what is the business, or what does the organization need if it's not a business, right? So this framework of what do they need, what do I need, what does the organization need, essentially looks at the holistic picture of what are the needs, what are we talking about here? And then we can start to understand how we might support the employee in a really intelligent way that gives everyone maybe not 100% of what they need right, because you're not going to be able to meet the needs of the employee yourself and the business in all contexts. We know that it's not realistic, but at least it gives us a little bit of a starting point to have that discussion. So that's kind of what I mean by compassionate intelligence.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Yeah, I think it's.

Speaker 1: 7:34

You know it's really important to really get specific about, you know, the role that we play in that and I, you, you mentioned you know there is a line and and I think a lot of times, people in kind of the humanistic professions within you know, within an organization, that they usually get, get to those jobs because they, they care about people right, and so like, when, when somebody is is, you know, showing up with with challenges or or in an emotional state, or you know there's there, there's trauma, um, that that needs to be responded to with compassion, it's it's like an either or it's almost like a binary, like well, no, that's outside of work.

Speaker 1: 8:17

So don't, you know, don't emotionally dump, uh, your problems at work, you know, bottle it up, which is kind of the honestly kind of the way we were coached, you know, a decade or more ago. And then you've got the other end where it's almost like, you know, hr or the manager becomes like a counselor, right, and it's like everything, everything kind of comes out and and you know, it's it's it's good intentions, but may or may not be what that person actually needs, yeah, in that moment. So so how do we distinguish between that like being that open, like psychologically safe space, but also making sure that we're not going too far or crossing some sort of a boundary, as we're trying to be supportive.

Speaker 2: 9:06

Yeah, and I love the fact that you just said boundaries, because that's where I'm going with this. We really need to be solid within ourselves and we need to have really healthy boundaries as people in these kinds of positions, because if we don't, if our boundaries are squishy or muddy, that's going to be confusing to the employee, right, and so the clearer we are on what our role is, what support we're able to provide to them, how we consciously communicate to the employee so that, yes, we're creating that rapport and we're letting them know that we care about them, but we're not promising things that we really shouldn't be, you know, promising and things that we, quite honestly, just cannot deliver. One of the examples that I give in the book is that you know, let's say, there's a leader, hr leader, and someone on the team is dealing with addiction, and that becomes something that you know is talked about in an HR meeting, obviously confidential, obviously private. The HR leader is not going to say, okay, well, you're dealing with addiction. You know, we really want to support you. I'm going to dip into my child's college fund in order to get you into an inpatient program, right? You're not going to do that, right, and I use that as an extreme case, because I want to highlight, sometimes we make, we try to make promises or we try to advocate to get the best possible thing for the employee and it's just not within our toolbox.

Speaker 2: 10:39

So, instead, what you might do is, again, depending upon the organization and what kind of benefits you have. You might help them by looking into what is available to them and then what it looks like from an FMLA standpoint or medical leave or what have you. So you're giving them support, you're letting them know that you care, that you're really hearing them, that the issue that they are dealing with is definitely something that you are taking to heart. You are there in their corner to support them and, within the parameters of what you can do and sometimes it's not going to be enough, according to the employee right to feel kind of handcuffed because from a bureaucratic standpoint, you don't have the ability to do what you really think is right, right. So we are in this kind of dance we'll go back to that where we want to do the right thing, we don't always have the tools to be able to do it, and I mean tools not necessarily personally, but from the organization right? So it's really about getting clear on what all of those things are.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, I think that's really powerful. And as a, as a recovering people pleaser, you know that boundaries word can can be pretty, you know, challenging, right, and I think I think there's a lot of us in this profession that you know we, we, we want to help, right, you know, and if somebody does present to us with some, some level of trauma, we want to be helpful. But, but there is a healthy boundary. And I think one of the other things you know from a personal standpoint and as I've worked with other professionals, is, a lot of times you'll also find people in these roles that struggle with boundaries because they haven't dealt with their own.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Stuff Right, 100%, yeah, stuff Right, and I, hundred percent, yeah. So so it's like you're trying to fix someone else but you really need to put your own oxygen mask on on first. So so, as we think about that, I, I, I'm, I'm fascinated to understand. You know, you, you mentioned in the beginning of this conversation that you know that trauma, uh, that childhood trauma informs you, know how, how you lead, and so so, and so what are some of the like, some of the correlations between some of the, you know, childhood trauma and how that actually presents itself in leadership?

Speaker 2: 13:47

style. Yeah, so people pleasers are on a spectrum between people pleasing and people controlling, right? I say a spectrum because it's not an either or this isn't a binary. You're not one or the other. You can be both in the same day and you can slide across that spectrum within the same week. That's reality, right? Most people in the humanistic professions that you're talking about do tend to slide a little bit closer to that people-pleasing end of the spectrum. My hand is raised as well, and really what that is is we didn't necessarily feel and this is a very blanket statement, so I'm using that as my disclaimer, very blanket statement we didn't necessarily feel that, just for who we were when we were younger, that we would be accepted or loved or feel a sense of belonging. So what we tried to do is we tried to create the conditions in which we would receive those things, we would get those needs met right.

Speaker 2: 14:52

It's a beautiful design. It's a beautiful survival strategy. So that looks like trying to get straight A's when you're a kid, maybe excelling in arts or athletics or something like that trying to please whoever your caregivers are so that they will notice you, provide attention, maybe affirm your and validate your sense of self and your you know existence in many cases, sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, given who the caregivers were, but that sets the foundation for who we are and that, quite honestly, we're talking about HR professionals and you know, people, leaders. That sets the foundation for the professions many times that we go into, because we do want to help people. Why do we want to do that? Because we don't want in adulthood, we don't want and this is subconscious, we don't want other people to feel the same way that we felt when we were younger. And if that's sort of a light bulb moment for you as you're listening, I get it right. Maybe you've never thought about why you chose the profession that you did.

Speaker 2: 16:03

The way that I thought about this was and kind of came to this myself was when I was 22,. I started a business. I started a cause marketing agency where we did digital marketing for nonprofits and foundations and social impact initiatives, do-gooder stuff. It had me written all over it, right, and I loved that we got to do that work. It was really impactful. I felt good about it. I loved my team, all the things.

Speaker 2: 16:33

But fast forward, 14 years later and when I sold the company because I was really really unhappy and burnt out and all the things at a very young age, I started thinking about and questioning why did I actually create a company at 22 years old?

Speaker 2: 16:48

That's kind of a strange thing to do. It's not a thing that most people do. And really, where I landed was I wanted to recreate the environment in which I was needed and valued and that I mattered. So because I didn't feel like that when I was younger at the hands of my mother, I created or recreated an environment in which my employees and my clients really needed me, really valued me, and I mattered to all of them because I was either responsible for their paycheck or I was responsible for the success of their marketing ultimately. So if you haven't ever thought about why you're drawn to the profession that you're drawn to, there is some answer in this. Again, I say at the beginning it was a blanket statement because I don't know what happened to each and every person who's listening, but generally speaking, when we're talking about trauma-based leadership styles and that spectrum of people pleasing and people controlling, it is rooted in something that sounds like that of people pleasing and people controlling.

Speaker 1: 17:57

It is rooted in something that sounds like that. Oh, interesting, I'm going to see how many emails I get after people listen. I'm sorry you get out of my head.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Kelly, I'm sorry and you're welcome.

Speaker 1: 18:10

That's one of those things it's like once you learn it, it's like, oh, now I can't unlearn this, you know. It's like oh great, but I meanarn this, you know. It's like oh great, yeah, but I mean, I think, you know, I do think that there's there's so much um, there's so much truth in the you know kind of that, that subconscious drive to like help people and and and the question why you know Um, and I think I think it's really interesting. I also, you know, would venture to guess, that many people in you know, in this type of a profession also maybe prefer to focus on, you know, on helping others versus helping themselves. And that's certainly my personal experience. And I think until you really start to get honest with yourself and do some of the really, really unfun work, it can just kind of sit there.

Speaker 2: 19:10

I mean unfun, but really really rewarding.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Right right, right, yeah, but what you're speaking to is really we've been talking about sort of the positives Right, right, more than what we can actually handle. We say we're fine, we don't speak up, we don't advocate for ourselves. We end up burning out or feeling that overwhelm, right which clearly is not sustainable. We get sick, so it manifests as sickness. Hopefully that's just temporary, but in some cases that manifests as more chronic illness.

Speaker 2: 20:04

We know that from the work of Dr Gabor Mate.

Speaker 2: 20:10

We know that from Bessel van der Kolk's work that the body really does keep the score that's the title of his book and so trauma lives in our body and if we don't do anything about it to really integrate it and reincorporate it, then we're just playing out that same scenario over and over again and it really will manifest in these really maladaptive ways.

Speaker 2: 20:33

How that impacts us I mean, that's more on the human side, right, but how that impacts us in terms of leadership style is the people that we work with. Our colleagues now see us as unreliable because we take on so much, and of course things are going to slip through the cracks it's just the nature of it because we're taking on more than what we actually have capacity for the intention is good, but the execution is what suffers. And these are all of the so when we talk about people pleasing as a leadership style or as that spectrum of leadership style, there are so many legs as you can start to see to all of this and how the tentacles really go into so many places for ourselves, for our own health, for our own mental well-being, also for our relationships with our colleagues. We also bring this home at night to our partners and our children, and on and on and on. So the ripple effect is really, really significant.

Speaker 1: 21:36

Yeah, um, you know I I do think to use a personal anecdote I mean, you know there was a point in my career where, you know, I I kind of intentionally said yes to almost every opportunity, and you know what it and there was an abundance of opportunities to get involved in, you know, in wonderful nonprofits and projects and you know, in all these teams at work, and it did, it did manifest itself into a place where, you know, I had to, I had to actually drop boundaries on things that I had previously said yes to, and and ultimately, yeah, I had to let some people down.

Speaker 1: 22:16

You know, there were some commitments that were made in the, in the midst of the excitement and optimism, that were just unrealistic, based upon the demands of of of life and and complete lack of balance. Right, and for me that manifested in a number of not so awesome things, but did prompt me to actually start to ask the question why? And start to do that work Like, okay, why am I driven to do this and why am I not showing up for myself? And so for those of us that are listening to this and kind of feel like, okay, I feel like I'm going to do this and why am I not showing up for myself? And so for those of us that are listening to this and kind of feel like, okay, I feel like I'm being seen or feel like this is really applicable, where should we begin if we're starting to think about some of these past emotional wounds and try to understand how to kind of move forward with a more effective way of leading by resolving some of these traumas?

Speaker 2: 23:13

Yeah. So I want to start by saying I don't use the word healed E-D past tense. It's a lifelong commitment, so let's start there and then you can gauge your willingness. That's how I'll say it. But really, if you've not, you know most people in HR are comfortable at least talking to a therapist, because many times they are almost acting the part of one.

Speaker 2: 23:41

If you are currently in therapy, great, there can be many, many other modalities that are more somatic in nature, so that you're actually moving trauma out of the body. You're approaching it in very different ways, very unique ways that you may not have heard about. So part of the supplement to the book is an online resource called myhealingmenucom literally set up like a restaurant menu called myhealingmenucom literally set up like a restaurant menu. So you can kind of explore through there. Nothing is recommended, it's really just an educational resource and you know, if you have not spoken to anyone before, then obviously talk therapy is a great entry. I kind of jokingly call it the gateway drug, but it's not the thing that is going to help you reincorporate or integrate that trauma, release that trauma out of your body, because talk therapy by its very nature is cerebral, right, you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Someone just said this to me the other day think about the difference between therapy and coaching. Right, if you draw a line in the middle of a horizontal line, from the line that you are vertically in the middle, backwards, that's therapy. From the line forward, that's probably coaching, or HR, or mentorship, et cetera, et cetera. Right, because we're talking about what's happened in the past. In therapy, you're unpacking all of the things that have happened to you, which is not trauma. By the way, trauma that's not the events that have happened to you, it's actually your association with those events. Those events, right, it's what happens inside of you because of the events that have happened to you or that you've been part of. Going forward is really more the coaching and HR and all of that.

Speaker 2: 25:40

So I think always talking is a great starting point. It's just not going to be the thing that is the quick fix, by any means. It's not going to be the be all end, all so more of these somatic experiences and again, there are hundreds on that website. I always recommend just browse it. Keep your eyes and ears open to other modalities that people are talking about. If you're curious about them, research them a little bit more, try them out, and the only caveat with that is on myhealingmenucom I talk about the dessert section of the menu as plant medicine and psychedelics, and so the only caveat there is that that's not for everyone, obviously, and that's really not for you if you are already aware of a mental health condition or you're on medications like SSRIs, because that would be contraindicated.

Speaker 1: 26:41

Yeah, I think you know. So this is, you know, on a personal level. So I was one of those that full-blown people pleaser humanistic occupation, said yes to everything and when people would ask me, I'd be like, yeah, I had a perfect childhood, well, that's always a big red flag, right? So it wasn't until recently that I actually started flag Right. So, um it, it wasn't until recently that I actually started.

Speaker 1: 27:10

I did the gateway drug, I did the top there talk therapy and then started to really really focus on some of that. You know, kind of that continuous work and, yes, it absolutely is a journey. But I think you know, for, for those that are listening to this and and are kind of realizing that, hey, maybe, maybe there is an opportunity to opportunity to look at this for myself, take the opportunity to get educated, right, because there is a lot out there and at some point it's really overwhelming. So I think the fact that you put this into a menu format is kind of genius so you can actually kind of think about processing in a way that makes sense and that you're comfortable with and I think could be really powerful. So I would echo that. You know, if you're not thinking about that or don't have some resources to help you through some of these things, then you know, get educated, yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:00

And I'm glad that you said it like that, and you know. Ultimately, what this comes down to and I think you've kind of alluded to this in some of the personal examples is getting clear on what you will and will not accept, getting comfortable with the fact that you will. In having boundaries or better boundaries, boundaries at all, you will let people down, and, as a chronic people pleaser, that's going to be hard right. That's the worst thing in the world to a people pleaser is to let someone down, to disappoint another person, to say no, oh my God, right, and you know. The reality, though, is you can't keep pouring from that empty cup, so at some point, maybe, commitments that you've already made you can pull back on. You'll have better information, more information to know that. You know saying yes to every single thing is not actually in your best interest, as much as you want to help. It doesn't make you a bad person. I think there are people that need to hear this. It doesn't make you a bad person. I think there are people that need to hear this. It doesn't make you a bad person when you say no to a request.

Speaker 2: 29:09

You can have a filtering system similar to what I talked about, with compassion and intelligence, a filtering system to say, you know, is this something that you know? There's a request that comes in, whether it's work, whether it's from a family commitment or obligation, in many cases, a friend group, whatever it is. There's a request, right, like, hey, can you come do this thing, can you help with this? Our natural posture is to immediately, by default, say yes, of course. But if we apply it, apply a filter, you know, to those requests and start to say, like, do I actually have time? Do I want to do this? Is this going to bring me joy?

Speaker 2: 29:48

You know, has this person asked, like several times for other things? And you know, really, at the end of the day, like, is this an act of self-love for me to say yes to this, or would it be detrimental to me in any way? That doesn't make you selfish, right? That gives you the opportunity to really fill your own cup, so that when you do serve other people, you do help other people. You're doing it from a place of presence. You're doing it really with a lot of intention and a lot of integrity. Otherwise, you're giving everyone pieces of yourself, right, you're not giving anyone the full you.

Speaker 1: 30:29

Well, powerful note and, I think, really, really important for us to think about in human resources and people leadership. So we will leave it there With that. We are at the end of our time together and I want to be respectful, but I want to give a warm handoff to our listeners. Where can they learn more about you? Find the book and continue to understand some of this important work.

Speaker 2: 30:53

Yeah, so my website is klcampbellcom and the book is on there. My work is on there. Obviously, the book is available Amazon, Barnes, Noble, lots and lots of other places, independent bookstores, etc. But all the information that you need is right on that website.

Speaker 1: 31:09

And we will have a link to that in the show notes, so pop open your podcast players, check it out and get your hands on the book. Kelly, thank you so much for spending some time with us. Really, really critical topic that we don't talk about enough, so thank you for putting this out there and for having this conversation with us today.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Yeah, thanks for diving in, Thanks for being, you know, vulnerable and sharing some of the things that you did as well.

Speaker 1: 31:34

Thank you All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, Twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at RebelHumanResourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by RebelHR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.

Speaker 2: 32:05

Baby.