Mastering the Art of Tough Talks with Todd Davis

Have you ever been tongue-tied during a critical conversation at work? Prepare to unlock the secrets to mastering challenging dialogues with Todd Davis from FranklinCovey, as he returns to the Rebel HR podcast to share a wealth of strategies for transforming tension into constructive outcomes. With Todd's guidance, you'll learn how to prepare for these tough talks, ensuring your message is not only heard but also fosters growth and understanding within your team.

Tackling difficult conversations requires a delicate blend of courage and empathy, a theme we dissect throughout this episode. We provide you with tools to constructively convey feedback and bolster relationships, emphasizing how crucial empathy is in shaping successful dialogues. By the end of our conversation, you'll have a personal toolkit for effective communication, complete with purpose and positive intent statements to help maintain the integrity of your professional bonds.

Beyond individual conversations, we dive into the broader implications of leadership development with insights from FranklinCovey's esteemed content. With heartfelt thanks to Todd Davis for his valuable contributions, this discussion serves as a testament to the transformative power of leadership skills in HR and beyond. Join us for a journey from anxiety to empowerment, as we explore the art of navigating the toughest talks in the workplace.

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Chapters

• 0:03 Navigating Difficult Conversations in HR
• 6:31 Effective Communication in Difficult Conversations
• 19:52 Navigating Difficult Conversations in HR
• 22:21 [Ad] Virtual Rockstar
• 23:10 (Cont.) Navigating Difficult Conversations in HR
• 31:41 Leadership Development Recommendations

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back, Rebel community. We have back with us, as a repeat guest, Todd Davis. Todd joined us way back in episode 25. We were talking about his book Get Better and we're going to be talking today about navigating difficult conversations. Years for FranklinCovey, he is currently senior consultant and thought leader, enjoying the opportunity to share his knowledge with the world. Todd, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it, Kyle.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Well, extremely excited to have you back and, if I can just again personally, thank you for helping shape my HR career, helping so many leaders in our function and I was telling you a story before we hit record. Thanks for giving me a book that I now have the opportunity to gift to other HR professionals that are new in the career. So, todd, you've been very influential in my career. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Well, I appreciate that and I think we all help each other, so I've learned a lot from you and others as well, but thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:26

Absolutely. You know part of this podcast. It's a little bit group therapy, right, when you get other HR pros in, certainly like chief people officers sometimes, it's a little bit of that too you understand me is how you feel when you're with other people like that. I feel, seen, I feel like you understand what I'm saying about this, right.

Speaker 2: 1:47

That's right.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Well, again, thank you for spending your time with us, and we're going to be talking today about an aspect of the leadership and human resources that you've been really focused on lately, and that is navigating difficult conversations, which is one of those areas that I think we all like to think that we are talented. Certainly in the HR space, we know how to handle these conversations, but I'll be the first to admit that there's been a number of times where I really have thought to myself gee, I wish that there was a protocol or a manual to figure out where in the world I take this conversation now because I'm struggling, and so, todd, I'm guessing that you probably have some insights for us, and so I think maybe the first question that I'll start with is what is prompting you to be focused on difficult conversations, specifically as one of one of those areas you're focusing on right now?

Speaker 2: 2:48

Yeah, well, thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to share this because we, when you said, you know I wish there were a manual, there's a manual. We now have it as, as the listeners may or may not know, so, franklin Covey, we have been in the leadership space for four decades, 40 years now. I'm not quite sure how I feel when I say that I'd been with them for most of that time 28 of those 40 years but I have, and I say this with humility, but we're regarded by many as the most trusted leadership organization in the world. And throughout our journey and developing leaders I think we did an estimate the other day of like 30, over 30 million leaders we have developed in this time period Um, and we have, you know, multiple work sessions on different topics, as you know.

Speaker 2: 3:33

But throughout all of that, repeatedly, has come up how to successfully navigate difficult conversations. It's just, it's a part of our lives that, whether in a formal leadership role or not, it repeatedly comes up and while we address it in I don't want to say roundabout ways, but different ways, through our various content in the seven habits of highly effective people, people who are familiar with that. Habit five is to seek first to understand, then to be understood, in other words, listen first, and so there are different tools and principles to help with conversations, but we have never had a specific course, kind of a step-by-step. Here's how you get ready for the conversation, here is what you consider when you're putting it together, here is what you do during the conversation, and that is what we have done now with this.

Speaker 2: 4:23

It's a two-hour work session called Navigating Difficult Conversations, turning Tension into Progress, and so, sorry to ramble, your question was why now, and why are we focused on this? It's because it's been requested over and over again. In fact, harvard Business Review did a study not too long ago that shared. Almost 70% of all managers say they are very uncomfortable having different conversations with their employees and that they need to improve. So there's my long answer to your short question.

Speaker 1: 4:59

Absolutely observe is you know, I think a lot of times we go into these conversations and it's, you know, there's like this outline in our head and we know what we want to say and we know in general what we would like that to look like. And then I can't even tell you how many times I go in there and you just read everybody's body language and everybody's energy is like super, super high and you can tell there's some nerves and like some people are like really closed off and that outline almost just gets like ripped up and thrown out the window. And then you're at the end of the conversation and you're like, wow, I didn't even check off one of those things, but we had a conversation, but I don't know that we ended up where we wanted to. So I guess my first question is, as you're thinking about this manual and this framework, what's your advice for us as we prepare, before we even go into these conversations?

Speaker 2: 6:00

Well, the timing of us taking this podcast is perfect, because I just taught two of these this morning. It's been a long day, two different client groups and so, just fresh off my mind, we were talking about first of all and you just described it beautifully we start to anticipate this conversation and all of a sudden, before the conversations even happen, these emotions start to bubble up Because we're thinking about how we're going to feel, how the other person's going to feel, and the reason these emotions come up is because something's at stake. I mean, in most cases, we're concerned about what the relationship's going to look like after we have this conversation. You know, I need to share this information with his employee or with his colleague, or with just my boss, and I want her to still think kindly about me after I have the conversation. I want to maintain that we're worried about offending. We're worried about maybe it's have the conversation. I want to maintain that we're worried about offending. We're worried about maybe it's a repeat conversation. Oh my gosh, we've talked about this five times. So all of these things, and, just like you said, I could feel all of the listeners heads nodding when you were saying we sweat this out, we think about it, and long before you even had the conversation, we've already taken 10 years off our lives worrying about them, and so the first thing we do is to recognize that these emotions are what are causing the tension, the emotions, and we all have emotions, we're human beings. So, if we can begin the conversation with a balance of courage and consideration, that's what we focus on and that's what our process is all about. It's recognizing courage.

Speaker 2: 7:32

What do I need out of the conversation if I'm the one initiating it? But then also, what does Kyle or the other person need? The consideration of that, and I have to be careful here. I'm going to jump in to teach the class, but in the class we take time to develop, actually write out a purpose statement and a positive intent statement, a purpose statement and a positive intent statement, and so the end result is me saying something like Kyle, I need to talk to you about a problem we're having on the team, and I think it's unbeknownst to you, but you're part of the cause of that.

Speaker 2: 8:04

So I want you to know. That's why we're having the conversation. But, kyle, I also want you to know that my only intent in talking to you about this is because I care deeply about your success and that you'd be wildly successful in your role. So please know that that's just an example of a purpose and positive intent statement so we can get the conversation going. And that balance is key to having these conversations be successful. And then throughout the conversation, because we don't know what emotions are going to come, how Kyle's going to react to this, how I might feel, then we have other tools to respond and keep that balance in check while we're having the conversation. So that's probably more than you wanted to know, but that's what I'm passionate about.

Speaker 1: 8:48

No, that's good. Yeah, we'll take all the content here, but I love those. Well, to steal a seven habits term, I love that paradigm, the courage and consideration, kind of the pillars of how to approach this right. And I think so often, certainly, at least in my experience, I'll go into one of these tough conversations. Certainly, at least in my experience, I'll go into one of these tough conversations and, yeah, I'll do all the prep and I'll, I will like, drive myself crazy rehearsing what I anticipate that they will say and how I'll respond.

Speaker 1: 9:21

But but so much of it is is is around the courage of me, you know, saying something right, or or landing the message in the way that I think it needs to be, you know, to be delivered. And so often I think we can kind of forget about the consideration piece, right, the fact that, although we might need to deliver a message with candor, we also need to be considerate and have some empathy for the person and how they receive that. And my guess is it's probably not the way that you want to receive right, because we're all so drastically different from each other. And so, as we're thinking about, kind of these two pillars courage and consideration let's start with consideration. What are some of the things that we need to be thinking about as HR professionals and people leaders as we're entering into these tough conversations? How can we be prepared to deliver a challenging message or enter a challenging conversation but do?

Speaker 1: 10:23

it in a way that's considerate.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Love the way you put that. So you're right In most cases not always, but in most cases it's easier for us to think about okay, well, what do I need out of the conversation? But what does the other person need? I'll call them Joe. Okay, I'll stop using your name, so I mean, hey, you could use my name all you want.

Speaker 1: 10:42

You know what Plenty of people have used my name in this context. Go ahead.

Speaker 2: 10:45

Right, yeah, so I'm preparing for this conversation. I'm actually thinking of an experience I had on my team not too long ago the team that I was leading as the chief people officer and so I knew what I needed, because Joe did a lot of things right, but there were some things that were really hindering their performance and therefore hindering our team, and I needed to get that message across to Joe. Now, when I was preparing for this conversation, to your point, thinking, what does Joe need? Well, obviously Joe needs to know what they're doing wrong. But before that and I'm so glad you asked this, kyle, because before that I remind leaders Joe needs to feel respected, joe needs to feel valued. That's right, but they're still a human being. Unless you're going to fire Joe, let's think how do we build their self-esteem while we are giving them this feedback?

Speaker 2: 11:39

This particular conversation is about some feedback, and so, in remembering that, it helps me shape how I approach the conversation, by reminding Joe or letting Joe know that I've received feedback from my leaders, and I know it can be a little bit uncomfortable, but I also really appreciate that they care enough about me to share these things with me because they want for my success, and so, by sharing, I have found that many times in many conversations, that reminding the person or telling the person about times when I've received feedback puts it down so they're less embarrassed. You know, if we get talking specifically about feedback, but when we get feedback on a performance, I don't care how senior you are or how mature you are, it's embarrassing. We all want to think we're doing things right all the time, and so when a good leader reminds you that, hey, we all get feedback, that's something to consider when we're thinking about consideration. Mind you that, hey, we all get feedback. That's something to consider when we're thinking about consideration. So we also people like me who tend to overly worry about the relationship, to the point where sometimes I have avoided the conversation longer than I should have.

Speaker 2: 12:45

Let's remember that the most considerate thing we can do is share with the other person what's going on, you know, because how unfair is it to observe something that is getting in their way of being successful or being great and not share it with them? And I will often use that kind of language. I'll say you know, kyle, this is going to be hard to share, but I put myself in your place and, boy, if you were observing something that you could see me doing, that was getting in my way. I would hope you would share it with me. So, please know, my only intent in sharing this with you is because I care about you, so that those are some examples of really showing sincerely showing the consideration for the other person.

Speaker 1: 13:24

Yeah, and I think I think a really, you know, really important context to be thinking about this in right. You know, and it's interesting, you know, as I reflect on areas where you know I get involved with things like employee relations, or you know, somebody's got a problem with their leader. More often than not, it's it's it's not somebody that's got a problem with with you know how their leader delivered feedback. A lot of times it's that they, their leader, hasn't delivered feedback and and by the time they're actually delivering some level of feedback, that's extremely negative. It's, it's surprising, right, it's almost.

Speaker 1: 14:05

It's, it's it's almost more disrespectful for them to to be shocked because there hasn't been consistent feedback over time, or or before, you know, I call it like before the smolder turned into a brush fire. You know, it's like we, we, we could have addressed it before. You know, now we, now we've got a really big issue. Um, and I think I, I would agree wholeheartedly. You know, anytime that respect component goes away, where somebody feels like they've been disrespected or or you know there has, there hasn't been, like an acknowledgement of the embarrassment of of how somebody might be feeling in that in that moment, then you, then you get the resistance, right, and that's when it gets, you know what I call effervescent and challenging.

Speaker 1: 14:56

So let's talk about that other pillar, that courageous pillar, and you know, I will admit I'm like raising my hand, as you were talking about you know being maybe overly concerned about a relationship, concerned about a relationship, and I certainly I fall into that category where if I have a, if I have a deficiency and you know my boss would agree I'm probably too lenient or or, you know, too too too considerate of like the things people are going through, to the point that you know I could probably be a little bit more, more upfront with my feedback. So for those of us that are maybe in that category and I would assume many people are in human resources and fit that category how can we start to work ourselves up to the courage to have these conversations before they turn into a big brush fire?

Speaker 2: 15:47

Yeah, such great questions, such great framing, and you're absolutely right that we Such a great question, such great framing, and you're absolutely right that we people that tend to gravitate towards the human resource, or people we call it people services space, it's because they have this additional amount of empathy and they're more easily able to put themselves in the place of others, which is a good thing, but can work against us, like you said, if we focus on that too much. And so, to your point, when we talk about balancing courage and consideration, it sounds like a small thing, but it's really important that we do it in that order, that we do it in that order. This was a tough thing for me to learn, because courage again, what do I need out of the conversation? People like you and me, we tend to put that second. We want to say, okay, well, first let's make sure they feel respected and they know that we really like them and all of these things and those things are important.

Speaker 2: 16:43

But there's a subtle but important difference. If we start out with our purpose, meaning our courage, and tell them why we're having the conversation, and again, to other people it might sound well, okay, that's no big deal. But to people like you and me, it is a big deal when we sit down in a conversation. I say hey, kyle, I need to talk to you about something kind of difficult that you're doing or performance challenge that you may or may not be aware of, but I wanted to know. That's why we're having the conversation.

Speaker 2: 17:10

That used to be really hard for me to say, because I'm thinking wait a minute, but what's Kyle going to think? I've got to jump in there and tell him how wonderful he is too. That'll come, but to an earlier point you made, kyle, how unfair is it to call somebody in and you're doing the consideration piece and you're dancing around all this stuff telling them how wonderful they are, and they're sitting there wondering, okay, where is he going with this? Am I getting fired? Am I getting a raise? What am I in here for? What's going on?

Speaker 2: 17:37

And so that's what helped me get over it and to be more always with respect, but to lead with courage and to have these conversations and just lead out and say, hey, this is going to be a tough conversation. Here's exactly what I need to talk to you about and then go into, but I want you to know my only intent is to make sure that you're successful in your role. That's what I'm looking out for. So leading with courage is actually, in a roundabout way, being very considerate, because you're telling the person why you're having the conversation, and for people like me, I shouldn't assume, but I assume. Yeah, it takes a while to get comfortable with that, but once you do, boy, have I seen it be a huge factor in beginning these conversations on the right foot.

Speaker 1: 18:25

Yeah, yeah, and I think such a you know such an important point that you know framing the reason for the conversation sometimes is really really kind. I guarantee there's a lot of people nodding their heads to this comment, like when someone gets pulled into HR's office, it's that, that can that? That alone can prompt a whole bunch of emotions and anxiety.

Speaker 1: 18:52

Like like like am I getting fired? Am I get you know? Am I getting reprimanded? Am I getting yeah, am I getting a raise? Um, do they just want to talk to me, like so? So, actually framing that like right up front, I think that's a really, really important point. I do want to call out, like to any listener that didn't catch, that Todd just coached me because I said let's start with consideration and then we'll jump into courage, and he's like you got to start with courage first. So thanks for that coaching. So we're seeing live, live coaching here today. Thanks, todd.

Speaker 2: 19:23

To the point you were just making. So, as you mentioned, I was the chief people officer for 18 years and and for a year now I've been out of that. And somebody was asking me. I was in Boston the other day and they said so do you miss the role? And I said, oh, there are elements of it. I miss being on the executive, I miss the role. But I said it's really nice to go to a lunch or a dinner with colleagues seen as a human being and not just some potential threat.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Oh, I know, I, literally, literally, today I was in the hallway. I was walking through the hallway and I saw a gentleman that I probably see once or twice a year, you know at a sales meeting. And I walked up to him and like shook his hand and you know, of course I knew his name, and he looks scared up to him and like, shook his hand and you know, and of course I knew his name, and he and and, and he looks scared and I'm like hey, it's okay, you know you don't have to run the other way, I know you, I know you want to run the other way. I'm just saying, but you know, I'll try not to take that personally.

Speaker 2: 20:21

After you know, after a few decades in the profession, it's it's easy to you know you, so, whatever, you get used to it but for those of you new in the profession it's normal and you just have to try to dispel the rumor that you're there to like fire everybody, all right for those who are my age, which are probably not many anymore, but there was an old sitcom on that ran for years called cheers, and uh, in cheers there's a character named norm and he is. He gets hired by a company to be the HR guy, but only for terminations. So all he does all day long is go around and terminate people, and it's a pretty hilarious episode for people to Google if they want. Norm on Shears is the firing hat guy, because HR does a lot more than that, something you mentioned earlier that I wanted to come back to, if it's okay for just a minute.

Speaker 2: 21:07

You talked about mindsets or paradigms, because, frank and Kevi, we're really big on that.

Speaker 2: 21:12

I think it's what really distinguishes us from other great competitors in our space, and that is that all great results begin with the way we think about things, our paradigms or our mindset, and on this navigating difficult conversations, a common mindset can be okay.

Speaker 2: 21:28

This is going to be painful, and so the best I can do is just get through it and get it over with. That is a very normal mindset when we're anticipating a difficult conversation, but once we have these tools and there are a lot more than what we've just talked about here. But once we have these tools, we move to a much more effective mindset which says okay, the conversation is still going to be uncomfortable, but I can actually reduce the pain and, more importantly, I can make progress when I start to focus on balancing my needs and theirs, when I have this balance of courage and consideration. So I just didn't want your listeners to miss out on that, because it is a huge shift. When you can get the right mindset around this, you actually don't dread these conversations. They're not fun. You don't want to spend your day doing them, but you feel empowered and equipped to handle the conversations or to be a resource to some of your leaders to help handle those conversations.

Speaker 1: 23:03

I think that's a really, really great call out and I would kind of second that and I would say that as I look at my job and I look at my HR team's job, part of our job is to help people develop that mindset as leaders, right, and there's so many times where I go into a conversation and I can, just before the conversation I can tell like this, this leader is apprehensive, they are like they're like jittery, they're bouncing. I can just like feel their nonverbals, like they are not looking forward to this. And so if you can help others adopt that mindset and really kind of be the subject matter expert as it relates to how, to how to effectively and deal with, deal with difficult conversations, deal with, deal with conflict in a healthy way, you know, look at feedback as a, as a gift, and and and help your team think in that context, it's gonna. It's going to elevate you as well, you know it's. It's going to be a better situation and a better experience and it's going to elevate the importance of you within an organization. So it's all you know it's.

Speaker 1: 24:15

It's helpful for everybody. It's also personally enriching and guess what? You're gonna have a whole lot fewer different, like horrible conversations, if you have that right mindset. So I think really great call out and and you know a call out, I think I think a little bit of a call to action for the HR folks out there that you know somebody has got to be the expert, somebody, somebody has got to help the organization through this. Nobody likes this stuff, but somebody has got to be good at it.

Speaker 2: 24:43

That organization Well, you hit on yeah, you hit on such a key point there, especially for HR professionals, because we all want to contribute, right, we all want to do something valuable. And you just got me thinking, and I say this with humility, I'm not bragging to myself, but I can't tell you how many conversations that a leader has called me into or said, hey, could you coach me on this, me on this. We talked through it and they will. And I want to make sure I say this in the right way. I'm not bragging here at all.

Speaker 2: 25:12

It's just that if we get good at this, you have so many reps at doing it and these leaders really talented leaders that can do things I could never do They'll say to me how do you do that? How do you just say that? Or could you say that again? Let me write that down. And what starts to come second nature to you and me, kyle, is something that they really need. And so, boy, if you want to feel like you're making a difference, and you really want to do making a difference, get really good at this so that you can coach other leaders in your organization, because it is such a needed skill and it always will be, it always will.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Yeah, I think you know what I like. I'm having all these like, um, all these kinds of revelations myself too, like I would actually attribute that to a lot of the success in my career personally, and I think I don't know that it's necessarily a skillset, but it's the reps, right. It's like you're doing this day in and day out, probably multiple times a day, and you're working with leaders that might do this once a quarter right, so like they need that help and and that comfort.

Speaker 1: 26:12

And you know, I think, if there's, if there's one, one strength that I have, that I I'll, you know, do it in a way to try to stay humble, but it's, you know, it's, it's the ability to not get flustered at this stuff, because I've done it so many times right and it's like oh, this is just another monday, this is not a big deal, we can all, take everybody, take a deep breath.

Speaker 1: 26:32

Let's just work through this. You know, calmly, inflectedly, you know, but I think it's such an important skill. With that in mind, I'm fascinated to hear your answers to the Rebel HR flash round.

Speaker 2: 26:46

Are you ready?

Speaker 1: 26:47

No, Well, this is not going to be a difficult conversation. Okay, thank you.

Speaker 2: 26:54

I'm going to put that Remember consideration, remember consideration here.

Speaker 2: 27:03

All right, all right. Question number one where do we need to rebel? Oh boy, well, I think these are all. I'm assuming. These are all situational. You probably get a lot of different answers from different people.

Speaker 2: 27:23

We all have our different points of view. We see something that feels unfair going on wherever I see for me personally, in my work, in my personal life, my neighborhood, wherever I see an injustice, where I see people not being treated with respect and again, I don't want to sound like this high-minded Gandhi, although I'm a big fan, but I just that's something that has always been, I've been overly, in a good way, overly sensitive to that. I believe that I know that the receptionist at the front desk should be treated with the same level of respect as the CEO and, of course, you talk about different things because they have different roles and responsibilities, but I so that's an area I don't know if rebels the right word, but that's an area that that I I have a lot of courage on bringing to people's attention. If they're, if they're not, showing the same level of respect to every human being, it's. I feel very strongly about that and I always have.

Speaker 1: 28:20

I love that I love that. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 2: 28:26

Well, Kyle, of course, on his podcast to Well, kyle, of course, on his podcast. Who else? Who should we be listening to? Well, I'll tell you who I should not be listening to, and that is the news. Every day I've been here in the US with so many interesting things going on in our politics and everything else. You can get overindulged in everything that's going on. I would say, people that I admire. I'm not sharing who those are, but people that I respect and admire based on their actions and their behaviors. Seek out those kind of people and listen to them. I mean, maybe that's a dumb, maybe that's an obvious, but I think find the people who I aspire to be most like um leaders, famous and not so famous find the people I aspire to be most like and and that's who I listen to that's who I seek advice from, that's who I seek counsel from.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Yeah, that's a great you know. I think it's a great reminder too, like there's so much noise out there and I actions and behaviors right, as opposed to the kind of there's a there's just so much out there that that the actions and behaviors of the people saying it don't necessarily reflect right well, and and along that, be very mindful.

Speaker 2: 29:47

and again, this is nothing new, everybody knows this, but I still want to repeat it that with social media now and just all the technology we can and I've caught myself in this situation we can unintentionally surround ourselves with everything we want to hear and all of a sudden start to have just a very one-sided view of everything not just politics, but everything. A very one-sided view of everything, not just politics, but everything. And that's how the algorithms work. And so, again, I know everybody knows that, but step back and look in the mirror and say okay, I know that. Am I somehow unintentionally slipping into that? Let's wake up every morning and say I want to start with a fresh paradigm back to the word paradigm and make sure that the paradigms I hold are are healthy, that they're lifting me up and they're lifting those around me up, or are they unhealthy? That's a, that's a uh, a good mantra to live by.

Speaker 1: 30:38

That is a great, great uh call out and a great reminder. And I, you know, certainly I we're all victims of that If, if, we are not intentional about being aware of that, right, right, that is the way this stuff works, that's how they, that's why you see what you see when you open up LinkedIn or Facebook or whatever you know social media. So great call out. Okay. Final question here how can our listeners connect with you and how can they get more involved with the content that you are providing?

Speaker 2: 31:08

Yeah, very simple. Just go to franklinkevicom. More involved with the content that you are providing? Yeah, very simple, Just go to franklincoveycom. That's wwwfranklin F-R-A-N-K-L-A, like Benjamin franklincovey C-O-V-E-Ycom, and there's a lot of free resources there. Whether you choose to be a client of ours or not, there's a lot of great resources and videos there. And then there's, of course, all of our information on all of our multiple work sessions and everything else that we do Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 31:34

And just a side note, I've used the FranklinCovey program. I've read many of the books, I've been a participant in many of the the sessions here over the number of years of my career, and there's just so much great content there. So this is a non-paid promotion, by the way, like I just personally the content's good.

Speaker 1: 31:55

It is really good stuff. So if you're looking for content to help develop yourselves or your leaders, I would encourage you to take a look at this. So, todd, thank you so much for spending your precious time with us here, really excited that you're out there sharing your knowledge with the world, and thank you for sharing your knowledge with our listeners.

Speaker 2: 32:17

Thank you, kyle, appreciate you inviting me back.

Speaker 1: 32:21

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR Podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR Podcast, twitter at RebelHRPodcast, twitter at RebelHRGuy, or see our website at RebelHumanResourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by RebelHR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.