Everyday Acts of Courage: Redefining Leadership with Ash Beckham

What if you discovered that leadership isn't about titles but about taking courageous actions in your everyday life? In this compelling episode of the Rebel HR Podcast, we sit down with Ash Beckham, author of "Step Up: How to Live with Courage and Become an Everyday Leader." Ash dismantles the traditional notions of leadership, revealing how anyone—regardless of their role—can foster a culture of belonging and lead from the grassroots level. Learn from her journey from casual storyteller to sought-after speaker, and discover ways you can embrace everyday leadership and take courageous actions in your professional and personal life.

Curiosity can be a powerful tool for building empathy and creating allyship, and we explore this transformative concept in depth. Drawing from shared human struggles for acceptance and belonging, we discuss how being curious and assuming the best in others can break down barriers and foster more inclusive environments. Hear Ash's insights on navigating the complexities of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) work without villainizing any group, and understand the importance of making space for diverse perspectives in conversations and decision-making processes.

Authenticity is more than just a buzzword; it's a crucial element for a healthy and innovative workplace. In this episode, we tackle the challenges of maintaining authenticity while balancing professionalism. Discover how even a small increase in being genuine can lead to massive improvements in morale, innovation, and trust within your team. Ash shares practical advice on how leaders can foster a culture of authenticity, amplify the quietest voices, and ensure that everyone feels included and valued. Connect with Ash Beckham and learn more about her impactful work through her website and social media, and remember to follow the Rebel HR Podcast on your favorite platforms for more inspiring conversations.

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast, the podcast about all things innovation in the people's space. I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back Rebel HR community, really, really excited for the conversation. Today With us we have Ash Beckham. She is a speaker and author of the book Step Up how to Live with Courage and Become an Everyday Leader. Ash, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Thanks so much, excited to be here.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Well, we are super excited to have you and really excited to dig into this topic, because I think that this is one of those areas that, especially as people, leaders or human resources practitioners, we get asked to be courageous at work and have uncomfortable conversations and do all of these really hard and humanistic things as it relates to leadership. But we don't necessarily always have the best idea how, and so I'd like to spend some time maybe talking through your thoughts there, but before we jump into that, I'd like to understand what motivated you to write the book and ultimately spend your time being a speaker on these types of topics.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Yeah, well, it was not always my intention, right. I mean, I never shied away from getting in front of people, but I feel like when you have human experiences, they were just stories that I would talk about with my buddies at the bar, right, like of these weird things that would happen, this path that we walked down, and if you can't find humor in some of those things, I think that makes life a little bit more challenging. And so I did a couple of talks and then got traction with the TED Talk and then all of a sudden was kind of thrusted into this world and for a while I did kind of like, oh shucks, I'm an activist, kind of deal. And then people expect you to be an expert, and I didn't know if I was ready but I needed to be. So I was kind of riding that wave. But I would go to these, you know, conferences or speak in these corporate environments and people would say, ash, I love what you had to say. When I dot, dot, dot, when I am this leader, I will implement those strategies right.

Speaker 1: 2:19

When I get the promotion, when I get the degree, when I manage the budget line, when I have this many direct reports right, there was this hesitancy, that there was some sort of threshold people had to get to to be a leader, and to me that wasn't the case.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Right, the whole point of the book was that we're leaders by disposition, not by position, because I'd be in these rooms and I'd ask people who thinks of themselves as a leader and you'd range, you'd range it and they're like 50 to 60%, you know, depending on the demographics, but then you'd say who thinks of the person to the left of them as a leader? And everybody would raise their hand. So the self-perception issue more than it was anything else. And so the idea of the book is no, no, you can do these things from exactly where they are right. You have, you know where they are right. You have your sphere of control, your sphere of influence, and then beyond that, but in your sphere of control whether that's one-on-ones, in person, on your team, in your department you can create the dynamics that foster a culture of belonging right, and we all have the power to do that. We don't need a title or an office or any of those things to make that happen. How do we have that be more of a grassroots, egalitarian perception of what leadership means?

Speaker 2: 3:30

Absolutely. I think that I love that, that, that that saying so, I'm going to repeat it here. So you know, leaders by disposition, not by position, and I, and I think, as you, as you, as you kind of described that, that, that feeling or that feeling or that observation, so many people come to mind that have been extremely influential in my life but have not been in a formal leadership role, but have certainly been leaders on a team I worked on or somebody that I just like, aspired to be like.

Speaker 2: 4:01

Yeah, to be like you know, yeah, um, so I, I just think I think that's that's uh, really profound, kind of just really kind of profound, to reframe how we think about that, and I'm, I'm guilty, uh, by the way, you know, it's funny Cause it's like where I said I'm, you know, chief HR officer, but there's still times where I catch myself like, you know, when I finally get to there, then I'll be able to implement this, and it's like wait a minute, right, you know, from an organizational leadership standpoint, I'm pretty sure I'm where I wanted to be 20 years ago. Right Time to change stuff, right, or time to take action.

Speaker 1: 4:38

And it's almost. A lot of times I feel like as we progress we think that we will be less risk averse and a lot of times we become. We become more risk averse right as we go through that, go through our career. We get to the point where that it's feels too dangerous, like those mistakes. We're afraid to fail because the consequences seem so much greater when, if we're in the right work environment, we actually have the backing of everybody else on the team to fail and we're not failing arbitrarily.

Speaker 1: 5:12

We have the historical knowledge, we're making the decision, we're trying something new, we're being uncomfortable, but the risk and in reality, the number of people that our decisions impact gets greater, so we actually become more risk averse, that our decisions impact gets greater, so we actually become more risk averse. So I think that is what we're trying to break. Is that idea culturally within the organization that we need to have a little bit of failure in these realms as well. And I'm not saying you like, make this huge decision to pick the new company insurance because you're flipping a coin and you're just like feeling dangerous on a Friday. I'm saying you know we think we go through these processes but there is room for to do it differently than we've always done it, just to try to see what kind of different outcomes we can come up with.

Speaker 2: 5:57

Absolutely no, it's really. It's a really profound observation. I've never really thought about it before. It's funny how your brains like trick you, because I was just thinking, like you know, with that context in mind, I'm absolutely more risk averse than I was earlier in my career, because there's more at stake. And it's almost like like here in my seat, I look back and I'm like you know, back then it didn't even really matter, it was so, you know, I was just getting started. I could have really failed massively and it wouldn't have really been a big deal. And then, back then I was thinking, you know, just wait till I get to that point, I won't care anymore, because I'll be so secure in my career and I'll be able to do all these things.

Speaker 2: 6:35

And it's, it's like the self-limiting yeah. You know risk aversion, right, it's kind of fascinating.

Speaker 1: 6:42

Yeah, and no matter where you are in your career, you have that, there's that little voice in the back of your head. It's like I don't know which is, I think, important, right, that's that gut feeling, I think, when we're trying to do things that are courageous, when we're trying to push the envelope, we're trying to get out of our comfort zone. It's not the absence of fear, right, we always have that fear. The courage piece is to feel it and do it anyway. Right, because you know that there's growth in that moment when you're, it's that pit of your stomach feeling. To me, that's like something we should do every day, right, and not high stakes every day, but we have to be able to sense that, know it and act in opposition to it, because it's the right thing to do yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 7:28

I. I love that comment and it's like you know, you're never going to eliminate fear. Um, I also think it's. You know, it's really fascinating the way that you know we're, we're, we're all so wired to to like protect, you know, and it's evolutionary, right. I mean, you know we're wired to notice the negative things or to be more afraid of what's, what's unknown, versus the. But the reality is, a lot of times we assume the stakes are a lot higher than they actually are. Right, there's actually, there's actually a lot of room for, you know, discovery and learning and a little bit of failure, as long as you learn from it right and grow.

Speaker 1: 8:03

That's actually where it happens right.

Speaker 1: 8:06

Yeah, I mean it little bit of failure, as long as you learn from it right and grow. That's actually where it happens, right? Yeah, I mean it's always the anticipation of doing that. I mean it's like I have this conversation with my therapist on a regular basis, right of like I, the anticipation of doing the thing is always worse than doing the thing every single time. I, you know, I'm just taking me 50 years and I'm still learning that lesson. But, like the the but that is, we are there, is and I think, acknowledging that that is not something that we, we strive to overcome it, we don't strive to stop it from happening. Right, we need to be working in concert with those internal instincts to a certain degree, because that's that's our barometer, right, it's how we know we are pushing the envelope is to be in that space. That is uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 8:50

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I want to circle back just for a minute. So earlier you mentioned you got a little bit of traction on a Ted talk and, just just so the group understands, that's like 5.4 million views. So you know, a little bit of traction, you know, might be the understatement of the, of the, at least the month, uh, but but I, I think, um, and we'll put a link to that in the in the show notes, but I think it's a really, really powerful message and it's titled coming out of your closet, and so I, I wondered, um, if we could maybe you know, in the context of what we're talking about, as it relates to courage, talk about how you think, about how everybody has kind of their own closet that they are working on coming out of and what that means to you.

Speaker 1: 9:34

Well, it's kind of back to what we were talking about. Is that like somatic feeling, right, because courage isn't subjective? I mean, I'm sorry, courage isn't objective, it's subjective, right. What's brave for you? The only constant in that is that it's brave, right, and it doesn't serve me to compare my hard thing to your hard thing. That doesn't really get us anywhere.

Speaker 1: 9:55

And I think that a lot of people, when I was starting to do this work and my focus was initially in the LGBTQ plus community, and people were like, oh, I would never know what that. I would never know what it's like to be gay. I don't know what it would be like to be different than other people. And I was like, well, okay, sure, but have you ever had to tell somebody something and you were afraid that it was going to change their opinion of you? They're like, yeah, I was like, well, same thing. Like stakes are higher, things are different, whatever. There are details that are not the same, but if you've ever done that, then that's close enough.

Speaker 1: 10:32

We can start having a conversation at that point.

Speaker 1: 10:34

And I think that a lot of times when we're speaking of or about or to marginalized communities, we assume that that is such a unique experience and yes, of course it is, and you have to understand that to be able to be an ally.

Speaker 1: 10:48

But at the same time, the things that we struggle with are very, very similar, in that we all strive for social acceptance, we strive for a sense of belonging, we know what it's like to be excluded. We want to be in the in-group. We all want to do that. It's just human nature. So it really isn't that different. And if we can bond on our similarities and build trust and build that foundation, then we can more easily step into those more difficult conversations, because we trust intention in the other person, even if we see it differently. Right, I think you can get to empathy there, because in empathy, like you have to agree with somebody to be empathetic, and if if that's okay, if I don't have to agree with you, I just have to be willing to imagine what it would be like to walk in your shoes, I can empathize with anybody.

Speaker 2: 11:38

Right, right. I think that's. I think that's really um, in kind of a humanistic profession needs to be aware of. It's really not about knowing everything, agreeing with everybody's point of view. It really is about that empathy piece, right. And I think a lot of times. We throw around the word empathy, quite frankly, and I think we're actually misdefining it in a lot of cases. So walk us through what empathy actually looks like for you. How do you define an empathetic leader?

Speaker 1: 12:27

Well, I feel like we had you, like you said in the beginning, right, when we have those initial thoughts, like you know, they say you're not in charge of your first stop or your second thought and your first action, right, like when we see difference, when we see things we don't agree with, when we're in this world where we're making decisions so quickly, in the middle of everything we it is human nature to assess friend or foe, right? And so I think that in, again, like in the high pace world that we live in, it's that's completely normal. But how do we take a second and that empathy piece and? And that is like a, it's not just something you have, it's like you have empathy or don't have empathy. To me, you practice empathy, right, it's something that you draw on and your time that it takes to get to an empathetic state hopefully shortens over time. I think that that's the growth that we knew. But to me, it's all about curiosity, right, I think we assume the best in people and we're curious about why. Because in most of these situations, whether that's inside of work, outside of work, you know another parent on your kid's team, another dog owner at the dog park, right, like you know that you are.

Speaker 1: 13:42

We're assuming best intent because, at the end of the day, for me personally and like you said earlier, like if you're in human resources, you're like, you're an optimist, you just have to be like you have to. You can't do the work that y'all do and not have an optimistic look Right. So, because I would so much rather be wrong by somebody that's a jerk than miss somebody that's good, because I judged them first, because I think a lot of the times in the DEI work we're so afraid about being judged. If I come out, what are people going to think of me? But we don't realize that we do the same thing. Right, like we are judging people and again, maybe for safety initially, but if you can assume best intent and be curious that this person just arbitrarily didn't wake up and decide to be an asshole, I can't say that, sorry, you're like I don't, you can cut it. You can cut it. Yeah, that's all good, I'll say it again, okay.

Speaker 1: 14:37

You can say it again and use a I see you use a better word that, if you know, you, this kind of like, decide to wake up and be a jerk like that is their human experience that led them to where they are, and they have beliefs that may be different than mine, and I'm rooted enough in my beliefs that a conversation with them isn't gonna change my mind. But but why? Why did they get there? Why do they think that? Why do they feel threatened by the new dei initiative? Why do they feel like they don't need to be part of the conversation? Why do they feel isolated?

Speaker 1: 15:11

When you get to the root of that a lot of times again in this space, when you have the straight, white, cisgendered male often villainized in any of the DEI work. So, of course, if you don't feel like you belong, you're not going to try to be part of it, right? And so how do we reframe? Making a seat for everybody at the table and that's not everybody that agrees with us, right, that's everybody at the table, baselines of mutual respect, things like that. But I think empathy to me is that curiosity of you didn't just wake up one morning and become hateful or biased or any of those things, right, like you got there for a reason. You think those things for a reason. Why do you think that let's get there?

Speaker 2: 15:57

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think you know from my standpoint, you know from my standpoint certainly, um, um, always considered myself an ally and, as a part of that, always really kind of nervous that I'm going to say the wrong thing, right, or I'm going to be labeled as you know, pale, stale, male and yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:23

Or worse, right, so it could be significantly, you know, worse words than asshole have been used, I'm sure.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Right, you know, with people that look like me and mine.

Speaker 2: 16:33

But I think many of us are, you know, are in almost in a state of like freeze, where it's like, well, you know, we want to learn, we want to be empathetic, we want to be, you know, we want to engage in that curiosity, but we're a little bit afraid, right, and so, and I think I think that's an area that that is an important conversation to kind of to elevate a little bit, that it's, you know, with the foundation that you mentioned.

Speaker 2: 16:59

You know that that foundation of trust that somebody is coming from this, from a standpoint of, you know, being a good human and just trying to make, you know, the environment great for everybody. Then we can, you know, then it's okay to maybe make a mistake or say the wrong thing, and so I know we were talking a little bit about cancel culture before I hit record, but I'd like to maybe dive into that just a little bit in the context of how we, how we kind of get out of that state of freeze where we feel like, uh, you know, anything we say, is going to be wrong, or or or even engaging in the work and and kind of raising your hand as an ally is is risky, um. So what guidance would you have for us, as we're kind of continuing this, this practice?

Speaker 1: 17:48

Yeah, I mean, I think the the first thing that always comes to mind for me is you know some humility and some vulnerability, and that's that easy to do. So I think you create your trusted circles of people, honestly, where you can practice that conversation. You know you don't just like and again, you, you have to have relationships first. You have to go around educating yourself. Somebody's going to come up to me and be like Ash tell me how you and your wife got pregnant, right? It's like you're getting after it right away. If we're friends, I will give you more details than you would ever want to know, right, but if we, if we have never had that conversation before, that's different. But also, you would be surprised at how many people will actually dive in. My poor wife is constantly getting asked by. You know, I work for myself and she works at a big company and she's she is like the token resource for all things gay parenting or it's like what she's doing and and she, you know it's awkward and it's uncomfortable, it's whatever, but people want to share their stories like you. We have to be willing to be awkward and and really lean into that. And again, it's not the responsibility of lgbtq plus people to educate everybody on homophobia or BIPOC friends, to to end racism, right, like we're doing that collectively together and you go in with a little bit of education. But I think, if you can go in and say, hey, I, this is something I want to know more about. You know, what are you? What are your biggest concerns right now? Right, is it what? What hits home? What's be like, not, what are the gay issues of June of 2024, right, but you know, how does it affect you personally? What are the discrimination policies, like where your kids go to school? Do you have friends or family members that are transgender and they're moving, you know, and they're trying to figure out sports and what that looks like. Like it hits everybody in a lot of different ways. And so how do you and I start a dialogue? Well, the easiest way to do that is for you to figure out what's most important to me and then you go off, you do a little bit of education, you come back and have the conversation and you kind of enter and saying, hey, this is something I really want to be working on and really work on an allyship. It feels really awkward. I'm going to try my best. I will be completely honest with me. Do you feel like you would be willing to be a resource and that's all it is? Because I think there's so much empowerment.

Speaker 1: 20:21

We talk about employee resource groups or business resource groups and what that looks like employee resource groups or you know business resource groups and what that looks like. Yes, it's a resource for, and I think it started as a support network for people that identified with a certain affinity group. Right, but now it's not just your gay employee, it's your employee's kid that just came out, right, like it's the nephew of somebody and their parents don't know what to do with it. Right, they kicked them out. Right.

Speaker 1: 20:54

It is so much broader in how any of these things affect us than just the people that identify in that way, which makes a much, much bigger table, which is amazing. But also, I think there's an impetus. You have to meet people where they are right. They'll get there. But sometimes they need an olive branch, right. Sometimes they need somebody to invite them to the table and say, hey, in this space, you don't have to be afraid to mess it up Like. I'll be honest, I'll tell you you mess it up over and over. We've got problems, but I, I am a resource to help you figure it out, and I'm going to figure out right next to you.

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going. I mean going right back to you know, the kind of that curiosity piece, right, and I think so much of this comes comes down to you know, an element of of being authentic, right, like, like, like this isn't like, like you're not going to go out and be like hi, as a part of our DEI initiative, I am going to seek feedback on allyship from you, would you? You know, right, exactly. No, this is about like, hey, I don't know what I'm doing here, I'm probably going to mess up. I want to learn, you know, can we have a conversation, right?

Speaker 1: 22:02

And if I say something rude.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Can you be like, hey, that's rude, and not be offended?

Speaker 2: 22:06

Yeah, yeah, that's rude, like not be offended. Yeah, yeah Right, like totally different, like totally different context. But I think so often, especially in in kind of my career segment, um, you know, we kind of get coached to be these like like robotic, like like policy, you know machines that are in, it really becomes really an uncomfortable situation. So for those of us that are maybe trying to shake that off and get rid of this inauthentic attempt, what advice do you have for us to actually bring our whole self into this type of work and into these workplaces?

Speaker 1: 22:48

Yeah, I think that it's having really honest conversations and I, you know, authenticity and transparency are two completely different things, right? I don't have to tell you everything to tell you enough. You know, you and I we're going to jump on a call and you can tell that I am constantly checking my email. If I don't tell, if I'm not telling you why I'm doing that, you're going to fill in the blank, right? Ash doesn't care about this conversation. She's disengaged. This relationship doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 23:19

If I say any, any of the things, a thousand things could happen. I'm waiting on a text from my family member who is letting me know how surgery went today. My kid is having a really hard time at school and I'm waiting to get her. There's a thousand things that happen because, again, we're human and it isn't just our job title and it isn't just my transactional relationship with you. I am a human and there are other things that are going to impact my ability to pay attention. So, if I am a human and there are other things that are going to impact my ability to pay attention, so if I have a relationship with you where I can be like Kyle listen, today's just not the day man, I know we got to get this done.

Speaker 1: 23:56

I'm here, but I am not my best self right now. Is there any way we can push you to tomorrow? I've got these other things going on, that's enough. If we're close, I can tell you, my wife and I got in a huge fight. My in-laws are staying here, my dog died, like whatever. We can go deeper, but just that ability to be honest of like I can't do this now. I'm on a deadline, my email is blowing up because we're supposed to submit this today, in two hours, and you and I had this meeting scheduled a month ago and I had no idea it was going to hit like this and I just can't right.

Speaker 1: 24:34

How can you and I have that relationship where I can say that and you now can't check this thing off your list, but you're like, oh, all, right, a how can I support you right in what you're doing? And actually you let me know when works for you and then when you have to do the same thing, great. And I also know when you're like we just got to bust it out. Can I just get 20 minutes? Can we just knock out a couple of these things and I'll circle back to you in a week. But if we can say that and not try to hold all the things and spin all the plates and look infallible, and that our life outside of our Zoom screen doesn't affect us is not, there's no way and it's unrealistic and it just isn't real. And we all have those things right and some of us have either an ability or privilege to compartmentalize better than others, but some of us don't. Then you just get to know somebody more as a human. The next time we have a call you're like oh hey, how's it working for Luke at school? I know he was struggling and I just want to check it Again. We just know each other better as humans.

Speaker 1: 25:44

That builds the trust and it's a lot easier to have a hard conversation with somebody you trust than somebody you have this robotic transactional relationship with.

Speaker 1: 25:55

So I think you can start it with people that are safe, right, I feel like if it's a peer, right, you can have a group of people in the hr department and I'm sure a lot of people listen to, like you know the hr department of one, but that you have those relationships because, again, you're not one version of yourself when you open your laptop in the morning, like I feel like when we we go into authenticity, it isn't something we do, it's something we become, and the more we practice it in other realms of our life. Again, in these trusted relationships, we're like I'm trying to say this and I'm going to stumble all over it, but you feel safe to me to be able to say whatever I have to say, and then that's going to open up. That's a two-way. It's really hard, when somebody is authentic to you, to not lean in a little bit Like it is it's an authenticity is wildly contagious.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Right, right, yeah, it's you know, I think. Well, I'll be honest, like I think many of us struggle in this profession with, with when you open that laptop, you have to be somebody different or you're supposed to be somebody different.

Speaker 2: 27:00

You know, there's like there's there's perception of who you think you're supposed to be.

Speaker 2: 27:03

I think this actually probably goes back to where we started the conversation, which is like this perception that well, once I make it now I can be my authentic self.

Speaker 2: 27:10

Or you know, back when I was younger, it was easier to be my authentic self, but I actually my personal experience has been that like by doing that, it was just like it was a crash course for burnout and it just really kind of sucks. Like as I've gotten older, I'm like screw that. Like like I don't, like, like I am not going to go spend 40, 50, 60 hours a week with my coworkers and be someone I'm not, or you know, I can't look myself in the mirror at the end of the day, right, so it's. It's also just kind of a self like a misery index that I don't want to increase my misery by not being authentic at work, but it totally. It's easy for me to say that it's a lot harder to do that on a daily basis. It's. You know, we fall into these patterns of like just being robots, and you know kind of just and it's like path of least resistance.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Right like, yeah, it's not easy to say hey, kyle, I can't do this today, even though we've we've put it off for a month. Right like, but that it is easier to be inauthentic. It's exhausting and it takes much longer, but it is a lot easier and feels safer to be inauthentic. So we, it's the path of least resistance. But I would say, if you look at it I mean, bring in the finance department, think of the amount of time wasted deciding what version of yourself you need to be right, or how many ideas like, if I can't be authentic, I'm not going to. Like innovation, creativity takes a nosedive, because if I can't even be myself, how am I going to bring up this wild idea that I had the other day? Because I think it's just going to shut, get shut down, right like there's. It affects the bottom line, it affects morale, it affects everything. But it's also easier and when we're in these high stress environments and it's constantly there and you know, with reorgs and downsizing and everything that happens, like you're just trying to not screw up. You're living in this world where, like, don't, let me be one of the ones they can pick off. Don't give them a reason, right. Right, maybe my authenticity would be that reason, but I mean that the net stock that that takes on the organization is unbelievable.

Speaker 1: 29:33

Yeah, and I think you're not asking people to, you know, all of a sudden, like go to the meeting tomorrow and like just be your most authentic self. That's not what we're trying to get to. I think that if everybody in the organization was 10% more authentic and then 10% more, you know what I mean. And then you take that for a while and then you see the positive growth from there. We're not asking a ton and that feels a lot less scary. Being 10% more authentic, I can lean in. That's like an hour a day. That's one of my calls a day that I have to be just a little bit more authentic on, you know. And then it's like you know, rising tide, let's all boat. And then there's this tipping point of culture where, like, the expectation is authenticity and that's what we're all trying to get to right. It's like that becomes our bar.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Yeah, yeah, and I would also, you know, for, for people that are people leaders, managers, hr professionals it's also a really, really important um signal to send to the organization. Even, like you said, like, even if it's a little like a 10% more authenticity, like, oh my God, like, like I'm sorry I'm late, my kids were throwing a massive fit and you know what it it just it took me five minutes to get them calmed down and get them out the door today, so I'm sorry I'm late. Like that you you may have inadvertently just given every single parent that's had that happen to them in the last like 24 hours to feel a little bit more connected to you and and you know, a little bit of like, I don't know permission to be authentic about some of the struggles they're facing and, ultimately, maybe some of the accommodations they need to be more successful at work, right, like there's, there's so many like there's, there's so many like veins, like those little actions can, can really, uh, really turn into to bigger, bigger things.

Speaker 2: 31:23

So wonderful.

Speaker 1: 31:24

Yeah, I mean, it's like at the end of the day, right, if you're let's say you're staying late, you're going to make a meeting, and the boss gets up and is like, okay, we're all going to take, everybody, take fives, like, do whatever you want to do, or they sneak out or whatever, to say, hey, I'm going to call my family, I'm going to say goodnight to my kids, everybody's got 10 minutes and we'll meet back here and we'll get after it again.

Speaker 1: 31:50

But whatever you need to do, that equivalent for you go, do jumping jacks, run the stairs, whatever you need to do, we're taking a break for what your humanity needs, because it's eight o'clock at night and I know you're missing something. Right, right, that that is I mean. If you think of when you were saying in the beginning, like the leaders, the people that you look to as leaders that inspired you, that mentored you, they weren't perfect. Who wants a perfect leader? That's so intimidating. We want them to be real and honest, and they're going to be. They're going to have faults, right, we all do, but that's, that's what makes it relatable and connectable.

Speaker 2: 32:28

Yeah, yeah, Really, really amazing message. I think I just absolutely love this conversation. I'm going to shift gears and we're going to go into the Rebel HR flash round. Are you ready?

Speaker 1: 32:40

Got it, I'm ready, hit me All right here we go.

Speaker 2: 32:42

Question number one where do we need to rebel?

Speaker 1: 32:47

Uh, I would say in the mirror like make do something hard tomorrow, do something that that you don't think you can, or that you don't want to, or that gives you that feeling the pain of your stomach like own it yourself first.

Speaker 2: 33:02

I love it, I love it, I love it. Question number two who should we be listening to?

Speaker 1: 33:08

the people that are the quietest, the people that don't have a voice. I guess would be it right, like I think there's so much of having your voice heard that that feels so amazing, but part of that is amplifying other voices. So so I feel like figure out who whose voice isn't there and get them to the table.

Speaker 2: 33:25

I love that. Not to take this out of the flash round territory, but like no, well, I've already ruined that.

Speaker 1: 33:32

I feel like it's my mom answer Whatever. Yeah, it's just the way to.

Speaker 2: 33:35

But like I think this is really really powerful, especially in like today's workplace, when we've got all these like teams meetings, and then you sit on a meeting for an hour and and I had it like an aha moment the other day and and we use primarily microsoft teams and there's this like ai tool that tells you how much people talk and it will literally tell you like like how long, like how much air time people have had. And I'm looking at this and it's like four people and there's like 13 on on the meeting, right, yeah, so four people took an hour of our time. Did those other nine people have nothing to say? No, of course not.

Speaker 2: 34:13

Um, I'm sure they had plenty to say, but for what? They just weren't the loudest in the room and it like for me, I'm actually like, I'm like okay, screw this, we're not doing this anymore, like we're changing our meeting formats because this, what this is not effective, right, like that's. So you know, side note, like yeah, I totally agree and I think I think it's even more important now in kind of how we work.

Speaker 1: 34:35

And I think that's a brilliant way to look at it, right? Either there were 13 people on the meeting and four of them spoke, so either nine of them didn't need to be there.

Speaker 2: 34:42

Right, right.

Speaker 1: 34:43

Or nine of them needed, or you need to have 13 people talking, and it probably isn't either of those extremes, but it's somewhere in the middle, right and like how do you get efficient, how do you value people's time and or their voice? Right, like it's two of those things. Those are two incredibly valuable assets for every single member of the team. How are we maximizing those things?

Speaker 2: 35:06

totally, totally, um. Yeah, so side note, but um I love that. That's amazing it's super cool. Yeah, it's like it's. It's just, it's a transcription tool and I didn't even think about it like we use like we use it for the podcast, right so I can see who talks and how long. So I use that to make sure that the host isn't talking too much a lot of times. Sometimes I'm better than others, but you can use that in a workplace setting and manage the extroverts right, because that's not always easy.

Speaker 1: 35:39

That is like such an A.

Speaker 2: 35:41

That is the A I am here for.

Speaker 1: 35:43

Yes, genius, all right.

Speaker 2: 35:45

Last question Maybe the Renee that's the AI hack. I am here for yes, genius, all right. Last question, maybe the most important one how can our listeners connect with you? How can they get their hands on the book? How can they learn more from Ash?

Speaker 1: 35:55

Oh, absolutely. Ashbeckhamcom is my website and I'm on all the socials at Ash Beckham. And then the book is at any online bookstore where you buy it, or independent bookstores. Step up how to Live With Courage to Become an.

Speaker 2: 36:12

Everyday Leader. I would love to be in touch with anybody that's interested. Absolutely, Ash. Thank you so much. So many. Just like truth bombs in this conversation. Just absolutely loved the connection and the conversation today. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 36:24

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Kyle.

Speaker 2: 36:27

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by Rebel HR Podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast.

Speaker 1: 36:57

Baby.