HR Loneliness: Nick Jonsson's Pathways to Mental Well-Being in Business

What does it take to triumph over loneliness, stress, anxiety, and depression at the highest levels of business? Imagine reaching the peak of your career only to find yourself feeling isolated and overwhelmed. Nick Jonsson, author of "Executive Loneliness: The Five Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety, and Depression in the Modern Business World," joins us to share his deeply personal journey through these exact challenges. Nick's story is a powerful reminder that even the most successful individuals can face mental health struggles, and his candidness about his resignation and fight with depression highlights the importance of self-honesty and understanding the root causes of our feelings.

Throughout our conversation, Nick emphasizes the need for robust support systems, including mentors, coaches, and peer networks. We explore the often-hidden world of executive loneliness and the critical resources available, from charities to hotlines, all designed to provide free and accessible help. Nick's own experiences with overcoming socially acceptable addictions, like alcohol, offer a compelling look at the importance of vulnerability and storytelling in breaking mental health stigmas. By sharing his journey, Nick encourages others to take that crucial first step toward seeking help and building a resilient support network.

We also touch on the significant role that community and mentorship play in personal and professional growth. Drawing from a real-life example of a friend’s wife navigating the HR field, Nick highlights the benefits of connecting with local groups to manage work stress effectively. Our discussion wraps up with reflections on the profound impact of executive loneliness and the invaluable guidance that mentors and coaches provide. For anyone interested in delving deeper into these themes, Nick Johnson's book, "Executive Loneliness," is available on Amazon and LinkedIn. Join us for an episode filled with insights, inspiration, and practical advice for maintaining mental well-being in high-pressure environments.

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:03

This is the Rebel HR podcast.

Speaker 3: 0:04

The podcast about all things innovation in the people's space.

Speaker 2: 0:08

I'm Kyle Rode. Let's start the show. Welcome back Rebel HR community. We are going to have an amazing conversation today on a topic that I think needs to be talked about more and is extremely important. Topic that I think needs to be talked about more and is extremely important. With us today we have Nick Johnson. Nick is the author of the book that's available where books are sold, called Executive Loneliness the Five Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, stress, anxiety and Depression in the Modern Business World. Nick, thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 1: 0:43

Thank you so much for inviting me, kyle. It's a pleasure to be here Well pleasure to have you.

Speaker 2: 0:48

I know you are hot off your speaking tour and trying to find a time zone where the two of us could actually connect was a little bit challenging, so I'm glad that we finally were able to connect here today.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Yeah, likewise, it's a traveling world at the moment. The globalization is certainly there, but it's great that we can do this online. Otherwise, I had to get over to the US as well.

Speaker 2: 1:10

I think you know, isolation, loneliness, anxiety, depression, burnout. You know we're just now starting to, I think, elevate this conversation to something that we can actually start to do something about. I appreciate you a little bit ahead of the curve writing this book and you know it's been out here for a few years now here for a few years now. I'd like to maybe understand, before we dive into the topic, what motivated you to write a book specifically on executive moment.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Yeah. So it is a topic that was on my mind as I elbowed my way to the top for my career. Society set me up for success and it can be very lonely if you follow that. So once I reached the top of my career, I was a managing director of a large medical company. You know, I started to question myself Is this what I worked so hard for? Was it really worth it? And I started to have self-doubt and really I felt extremely lonely at the top, so much so that eventually I resigned from this job and I didn't have any answers. So much so that eventually I resigned from this job and I didn't have any answers.

Speaker 1: 2:29

But what happened then, after that, was that I realized there was a lot of others who also were in a similar position and that intrigued me to then do some research and interviews. And during that time also, I went into a depression myself and I had some major issues at my end. So all that together sort of propelled me forward to start writing the book. In the end also, I lost a good friend of mine, a colleague of mine, to suicide, and that was the nail in the coffin. Then I said I just have to do this.

Speaker 2: 2:59

Yeah. So first of all, thank you for being vulnerable and kind of open to putting this together. I know that that's tough and I'm so sorry to hear about you losing a friend. Unfortunately, I think that this has become a common narrative in many people who would be considered externally very successful, right, and so often we get these like there's this perception that once I make it, once I get to that top or I get to that C-level position or that HR leadership position, now I'm gonna have it made. But that's not always the feeling when you're there. So for those of us that are maybe listening to this, I'm thinking, yeah, I'm pretty lonely, or yeah, this isn't all it's cracked up to be. What are some areas that you think that we need to really start to focus in on as we start this healing journey of coming out of the executive level? As we start this healing journey?

Speaker 1: 4:05

of coming out of the executive world. I think the starting point is to just be honest with ourselves. We need to do an audit of ourselves, almost like if you think of a shop owner who do an audit or a stock take you know, to know where we are. They check the inventory. But we are so busy running through our lives and especially if you're in the HR, you're so busy focusing on looking after others that it's easy to forget yourself. So we need to really do that and sit down with a pen and paper or a spreadsheet, and perhaps with a coach, a mentor, a sponsor or a friend of someone who can hold us accountable, and just really really do this and write down the things that are going on in our lives.

Speaker 1: 4:42

And of course, there might be reasons why we are isolating. In my case, there was, for example, some issues that I didn't deal with and just because I became overwhelmed, I couldn't keep up with everything. And then, when the self-doubt come in, then you start questioning everything you do and then the natural default can be the next step to isolate. So there are reasons why we isolate and we have those feelings. So my point here is we need to really go to the root cause here before we can address it yeah absolutely, I think, um, I think that that, you know, advice is really, really critical.

Speaker 2: 5:19

It's also really difficult, right, like, like I, you know, I think one of these things so, so, and I, I've, I've experienced this in my career.

Speaker 2: 5:26

So, full disclosure this is a little bit anecdotal from my experience, but, like the, the fact of the matter is it's really easy to kind of convince yourself everything's fine, right, like no, you know it's like no.

Speaker 2: 5:39

Instead of you know, looking inwardly or being honest and reflective about how I'm actually feeling on a personal level, I'll just pour all of my energy into, you know, my job and whatever's left over. You know, I'll pour it into my kids, you know, maybe, maybe a partner, and then at the end of the, at the end of the week, all you've got is like, you know, you just want to fall asleep and and sleep through the weekend. Right, you know? And I think, I think many of us are in that, in that camp. So, for those of us that are maybe stuck in this, like this, this cycle, this learned behavior, where we just continue to just repeat these routines until we, we kind of blame out what, what are some areas of our lives where we, we can you know kind of wake up a little bit and take stock and what are some tactics to really truly do an honest self-honor?

Speaker 1: 6:29

Yeah. So I think it's important to look at all the key areas of our health, and I mean when that comes to physical health, the mental health, the emotional health, and I'm talking a lot these days about the social health. The social health is about the well-being of our relationships personal and professional and family relationships. They play a huge role and there's been so much research coming out now of big surveys there that says if you don't have your relationships in order, it can be as dangerous as smoking 14 cigarettes a day. So we might as well also include that in the list to really look after that. And when it comes to then the relationships, I'm a big believer in having safe spaces. We need to have pockets of people who we can speak with and where we are vulnerable, where we can be our authentic selves. So when we are facing some challenges, naturally we are in some groups or communities where we are disclosing these issues and we deal with them are in some groups or communities where we are disclosing these issues and we deal with them.

Speaker 2: 7:31

Yeah, yeah, I think it's um, I don't know, but it's, it's so easy to in a humanistic profession like this and in a leadership role in general. Just just kind of focus on everybody else, right Like that, you know. But you know the, the, the level of like actual friendship, like like true friendship, right Like vulnerable, open. You know relationships where, where you've got this level of like trust, um, even the, the dark side of you know the, the things that you're experiencing and the fact that you have somebody to share that with.

Speaker 2: 8:10

It. Not always easy, and I I feel like the, the more established you get in your career, the higher that you get within an organization, the less of those you tend to have right Like, and you know, I think it's one of those things that you don't necessarily nurture it, as that eventually just goes away. So so, as I know, you've been focused on social health and I think social health is a little bit of a you know it's. It may be a little bit of a newer revelation, but there's been a lot of really, really compelling research around. You know relationships and some aspects of social health that we should be focused on as a business professional.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Yeah. So with the social health, again, it starts with awareness. It starts with awareness and the honesty to ourselves to really think about the relationships, and to start with the relationships then with ourselves. You know, are we isolating ourselves or are we in denial, or are we honest to ourselves and standing, owning up to the issues that we are facing? I think we are only ready for the social health and the social relationships once we have our own house in order.

Speaker 1: 9:34

We got to love ourselves before we can love others, and according to me, it's love in romantic relationships, but it's love in friendships and working. It's all on the spectrum of love, and so that is the first step. And then, when it comes then to the other relationships, yeah, you can say that it's family first, and it's so many professionals these days who would say oh yeah, I didn't speak to my brother for two years. You know I don't have a good relationship with my father. Well, if that's the case, how can you then have a good relationship with your husband or wife and then with your colleagues? It's very, very difficult, again, if you don't have the things close to you in order. So it's about being proactive here, and just like we are proactive these days about our physical health by exercising and having a healthy diet and so on, and we're increasingly looking after the mental health.

Speaker 1: 10:26

But I say that we need to look after social health as well, and that means to repair and heal broken relationships, and I know that's very painful, but we got to make amends, we got to apologize, we've got to own up, to decide the things that we have perhaps damaged, and it is here about cleaning up our side of the street. We cannot take responsibility for the other party, but clean up your side of the street and have all of that in order and lead by example. If you're an HR professional, then if we do this, then and our teams do that then we're going to work in a place where the work culture is more warm, more open. There'll be more engaged employees, less sick days and all of these things in the end, more returns for the owners of the business.

Speaker 2: 11:14

Yeah, I think it's interesting. You know as much of these types of you know endeavors do. There's usually a positive ripple effect in the world of work, right? So you know, as you do the self-work, that, yeah, like you said, sometimes this stuff is hard and it sucks and it's really really not something that you like, have a strong desire to do. But it could be really really important, right and necessary for healing. But that'll reverberate, right, like if you're in a better place, if you are healthier, that will only make the workplace healthier. It's natural. That's how it works. I think it's really really critical that the reality is that sometimes we don't have the skills to do this on our own Right. You know, sometimes we need help. Do you recommend that people think about getting, or maybe where can people who are feeling drawn to do something but don't necessarily have the skills or the toolkit to do it, where can they go first?

Speaker 1: 12:53

support it depends what kind of issues and what kind of feelings or isolation and so on they have. And when I went through my difficult time and after I resigned from my job, I also filed for divorce and that made me even more isolated. I was just not ready to be questioned by anyone, so I pushed everyone away from me and in that space also I started to pick up addiction. And that's very common as well. When we are in there, we change our good habits to bad habits. So for me that meant a trading gym membership for a bar stool and basically with that my healthy diet, fast food and pizza, and I started to drink too much beer, I gained a lot of weight and I became addicted. So again, I had to own up to that and I went to one of the 12-step programs and I got support there by first being honest about my issues, owning up to that, meeting like-minded who were going through a difficult time and who had alcohol problems before, and that gave me hope and they showed me the way.

Speaker 1: 13:55

These days there's so many charities, so many social organizations, so many helplines, hotlines that are full of volunteers who are supporting in this for everything from alcohol to drugs, to sex to shopping, to social media addiction there's people there to help. So, if we again have done the orders properly, if we know where the issues are, help is there and it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. There's a lot of volunteers. The most is actually free. If we know where the issues are, help is there and it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. There's a lot of volunteers, the most is actually free. If we want some professional help, then there's coaches, there's mentors, of course, and it's all kind of mastermind groups, peer groups and associations where you can ask people who perhaps have some more year experience than you and they can help you.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Absolutely. Yeah, I think this goes back to the loneliness thing too, right, like you're not alone, right Like there are a lot of people that are, you know, struggling with this type of thing, and so you know, kind of finding people that have gone through similar situations maybe are currently going through it and are you know, on a on a road to recovery or support can be can be really, you know, really really helpful.

Speaker 2: 15:08

Um, I'm curious maybe to you know understand a little bit more about how you have, uh, thought about this topic as you wrote the book. You know you really you focused on on five pathways to overcome executive loneliness. What are those five pathways and and why were those the focus areas for you?

Speaker 1: 15:33

yeah, and it's good timing to bring them in, because we already covered the first one. And the first step is just what we talked about about taking stock. It's about that audit to look at yourself and then so we can cover now the second one, which is actually once you've done that audit. It's about taking that list and thinking about who you can ask for help. So it's really taking action on that. So if you write it in a spreadsheet, you have one column with issues.

Speaker 1: 16:01

In my case, it was I had too much weight, I was drinking too much alcohol, there was some broken relationships and I needed help. So I put all that down. And then the second row, I put some names of people who I could ask for help, and then the next step then is to start asking them and just ticking the boxes and going to see the friends calling the hotline, so getting the help you need really. And I say that we have to look after the body first the physical health has to come first and the mental health, so that we get the house in order.

Speaker 2: 16:46

Absolutely the mental health so that we get the house in order. Absolutely, um, as you were writing this, I'm curious. Um, my, my assumption is you probably ran into to many other people that were dealing with a similar you know kind of a similar situation. Were there any any common themes to individuals that were struggling with this that you observed?

Speaker 1: 17:07

I would say that the most common replies I had as I started to write and talk about this was just a big surprise. There's so many times that people have said I've been waiting all my life for someone to talking about this and I can, for example, within 24 hours of me going viral with this and sharing my story, I was on TV, radio and in over 20 newspapers, and in Singapore, where I spent most of my time, the biggest business newspaper there called Business Times, they wrote a four pages feature on my story and the book and so on, because they said we wanted to write this kind of story for so many years, but there was never, ever anyone daring or willing to be vulnerable and step forward. Everyone was okay to share the story, but anonymously. We need a person. So they had my picture there. And's what was.

Speaker 1: 18:02

What's also what the publisher said nick, you're sharing your own story here in this, in the book. This is very unique, so that's why the, the publisher even insisted that I'm on the, on the on the cover, because people need to see that this is actually real people behind this, and so so that was the main point of the book was to break the stigma, and I had to have my story there. So it was a difficult decision, but it's the best decision I've done in my life to step forward here.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Yeah, yeah. And again, you know a high level of vulnerability, right? You know honesty. I'm sure that was personally difficult to open up that way.

Speaker 1: 18:44

Yes, it was, but the reward is there. And I want to say also, kyle, every time I have a chance to share this and share my story and just to admit to myself and to others and to say to you and your listeners today that as I went through this, I had an alcohol issue. That was very, very hard for me to admit. That sat really deep. Now it's six years ago since I had my last drink and it's a bit easier to say so, but for anyone who has any addiction, we will do anything we can, and it doesn't matter if it's that we're workaholics, that we're working 14 hours a day, because most of us would be in denial, and we'll do everything we can to defend those things.

Speaker 2: 19:24

Yeah, totally, you know, I think. And first of all, you know, congratulations for six years. I know that's no easy feat, but alcohol is one of those things it's, you know, in many cases it's societally acceptable. It's one of those things it's, you know, in many cases it's societally acceptable. It's also in the business world, super common, right, Like it's, like it's hard, it's like you're walking away from a, you know, a task. That is certainly certainly a challenge.

Speaker 2: 19:59

I, I, I haven't drank for about six months. Um and uh, you know, for, uh, for, for for similar reasons, mostly mental and physical health. You know it's it. It wasn't helpful, right, but but it's it, but it's. It's easy to make that realism, to come to that realization. It's a lot harder to actually execute on, not right, that point of you know kind of burnout and isolation and loneliness, and you talked about some of the things you had to overcome all the way to, you know, ironman, right? So how did you navigate that journey? Once you did the audit, you were honest with yourself and you started to tap into your resources that can help you come out of it. You know how did you navigate through the rest of that journey.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:03

So the model that I used to come out of the loneliness and getting myself healthy proved to be a winner and I thought I can apply this to everything in life, anything I want to do, and I did it then on the sport of Ironman, where I was completely vulnerable and open and I signed up with swim coaches, run coaches, cycling coaches, triathlon academies, getting the social life and always asking questions, asking the people who'd been there before, getting the nutrition tips and everything.

Speaker 1: 21:36

And most of these tips, again, are free. Most people are happy to share. If you want 10 minutes, they will give you 10 minutes for free with some of the top tips. If you want an hour, you can. You can get it at the rate. So I just apply that to the sport of ironman and that took me all the way to becoming top two percent world and I I just qualify now for the world championship in my age group in the half Ironman distance, where I will go to New Zealand in December and compete. So it just proves that it works and I applied it to a few other areas also of my life and it works in every area. That's awesome, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:16

I have done a half Ironman the best I can say is, I finished after, but.

Speaker 2: 22:24

But. But you know what? Here's the thing, nick like. So I did not do what you did, right, I tried to do it myself and I did finish, but I didn't excel, you know. So, as I listened to you, it's like, you know, a little bit of a light bulb moment for me, where it's like I didn't focus on the social aspect of it, I didn't get coaches, I took, you know, no-transcript as well as, obviously, the physical and mental health aspect.

Speaker 1: 23:21

Yeah, absolutely. And then I wanted to test that also in the public speaking arena. So I'd done presentations all my life, I'd done some speaking and so on. But then I put a target as myself I really, really want to break through as a professional speaker. So I did again this I made a list of all the top 30 speakers in Asia and I reached out to them and some were willing to give me some mentor calls and checking in with them.

Speaker 1: 23:45

I just asked them you know what have you done? What? Were willing to give me some mentor calls and checking in with them. I just asked them you know what have you done? What are the secrets, any tips? And if you speak to 15, 20 professional speakers who are the best, you get a pretty long list of things to do and as long as you action some of them and at least one or two points of everyone, you know things that get moving really, really quickly. And a few of them got really inspired when they saw me going and a few of them have volunteered to be non-paid sort of volunteers for me as their mentors and I can call them anytime to get free tips and they're linking me up and giving me keynotes all over the world now. So I was fully booked since March, basically going around the world. I had to fly twice to Maldives, even to give speaks. Maldives, yeah, you hear that Sure.

Speaker 2: 24:26

Had to fly twice to Maldives even to give speaks. Maldives, oh yeah, you hear that. Sure Maldives, sure Maldives.

Speaker 1: 24:37

If you want the Rebel HR podcast, a live podcast in Maldives.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Yeah, but you know, as evidenced by how hard it was to get you, you know, connected I, you know. Again, I think that's that's. You know you're tapping into the power I, I. Actually, to me, what I'm hearing is like you're tapping into the power of your story and your vulnerability and your and your, your willingness to ask for help and like be be open and honest with people like, hey, this is what I want to do, what, what do you? What tips do you have? And, and it sounds like, for the most part, it's been an extremely positive experience for you.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Yes, of course you get a couple of no's, but you just keep going and there will be enough people who are willing to help you. And then there's professional speaking associations I joined and now, as they had their mentoring program, I said now is my chance to give back. And I'm actually mentoring nine professional speakers now and I group them up. We have a session every month where I'm helping them to take them through the journey of becoming professional speakers themselves. So it's all about giving it back at the end of the day as well. And in the triathlon community I'm also coaching and mentoring, helping younger people also in the sport, not with the professional side. Community, I'm also coaching and mentoring, helping younger people also in the sport, not with a professional side, but to also find a profession outside the sport so they have a life and an income outside. So whatever also I've done and everything that happened to me the six years, I'm also giving back now and that gives me then fulfillment as well yeah, absolutely yeah, I think it's.

Speaker 2: 26:08

You know what's what's. What's really interesting here, is it? It's such a rewarding thing to like make these connections. Obviously you're addressing the loneliness concern there by just by making the connections. And then you know research after research shows like giving back actually makes you happier than receiving, right? You know, actually, investing and and pouring into into others can, can, can be, you know, medicine for the soul, right? So, um, so good for you for, uh, for giving back.

Speaker 2: 26:43

I think one of the things it's it easy for us to agree with this stuff and I think I've had a couple maybe light bulb moments as we've talked here today professionals that feel duck, like like they understand, hey, I'm looking for, you know, I understand I need to figure out this social, you know, health thing.

Speaker 2: 27:13

I know I need to find some helpers. I know I need to be vulnerable, but I don't I, I don't know that I'm comfortable doing that. You know, like in the workplace, right, especially, I think a lot of times, like our friends are at work Most friends are made at work in many cases but in like an HR position or an executive position, you know that's not really possible because you, you know, you know what everybody makes. You've got all these confidentiality requirements. You don't want to have an awkward conversation with somebody or reboot plan at the you know family barbecue. An awkward conversation with somebody or reboot plan at the family barbecue. So for those of us that are maybe struggling and don't feel comfortable doing this in a work setting, what advice would you have for us to go out and build maybe more of a social network outside of the workplace in order to fulfill that need?

Speaker 1: 28:01

Yeah, so I think professional connections and outside the workplace, I believe we need them on a one-on-one basis and perhaps internally in the company they're giving you someone perhaps in another office as a mentor, but that you're not going to be completely transparent and vulnerable there. So look for someone perhaps who is five, 10 years ahead of you in the career ladder in another organization, someone who might have worked for and see if they can have a mentoring relationship with you on a one-on-one basis. That could be one thing, but otherwise look out for mastermind groups, peer groups perhaps, and there are groups also in the HR field. Look out for HR organizations, professional organizations, where you can join and perhaps take on some board roles there, to be of service as well. That's a good way to get to know people.

Speaker 1: 28:53

And if none of this works, then think about what other HR professionals you know in other companies which are not in conflict with your own business and set up your own mastermind group. It can be an informal group where you log on for an hour a week on Teams or Zoom, or maybe you can meet in person. If you have some in your community, just set up that. You only need five, seven of you and let's meet up once a week and discuss what's on your mind and just say from the upfront that this is a confidential meeting. We are here to support each other and nothing is off the chart. Just share what's on your mind. What will happen then is you will listen to others and you will say, oh, I'm also going through that, I also have that issue, and then you will get that commonality and the sympathy that we so much need as human beings.

Speaker 2: 29:37

Totally yeah, and I would echo that as an example. I was in the grocery store a few days ago and I ran into one of my friends and his wife had recently got into human resources and we got into a discussion about it. I had assisted with interview prep questions and things like that, so I was really happy to hear that she got the role. But his concern was like well, she's bringing all the stress home and she's just dumping it on me and it's like I don't know. It's like I don't know, you know, it's like I'm not an hr professional and and and you know he had this. Look, he's like how can I help her? And you know my, my advice is well, here, guess what? There's this hr group, there's this local hr group. She can actually have these conversations with local hr professionals that are dealing with the exact same issue. Right like, or or at least a very, very similar issue. And and you know, there can be some, some level of support there and like, yeah, but it's things like that, right Like, kind of look out for each other. You know, build these, build these communities of support. And you know, and and I, I really think it's critical, um, and certainly personally, you know, my success has been at the uh, you know, at the support of my mentor. Personally, my success has been at the support of my mentor. Had I not had the mentors I had, I wouldn't be where I am today, and so being open to that really, really cares most Sounds great, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:04

With that being said, nick, I want to thank you again for for coming on and sharing your story and and and um, and for writing this book, and I think it's a really, really critical topic. I appreciate you, you know, being brave enough to uh, to tackle it and and and to share your story around it. Um, we're going to shift gears. We're going to go into the rebel HR flash round. Are you ready? Yes, let's do it. Rebel HR flash round Are you ready? Yes, let's do it. All right, perfect. Question number one where do we need to rebel?

Speaker 2: 31:32

I think we need to rebel with ourselves really challenge ourselves to break out from our day-to-day patterns. You know, I think if there's a theme of this conversation today, a lot of it has to do with being honest with yourself. That's really where it starts and I think that's the root and that we're not alone. We're all in this together. I think. Two big takeaways and I think areas that actually in our space are kind of rebellious Absolutely there's a rebel in all of rebellious right, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:08

There's a rebel in all of them.

Speaker 2: 32:09

Just bring it out, that's great Question number two who should we be listening?

Speaker 1: 32:15

to and you know what I'm going to say the same thing we need to listen to ourselves. However, I also want to say that we need, perhaps a coach or someone who can help you to ask the deep questions. You break through the glass ceiling and you get a bit deeper in yourself sometimes. We need to be challenged, and so look for someone if you have a mentor, a coach, who can ask you the deep questions and then listen to yourself and listen to the answers and even ask perhaps your coach or mentor, who had this conversation, if you are allowed to record it, so you can listen to yourself. And just again back to the first question there rebel and challenge yourself and listen to your inner voice.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Absolutely yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think you know, I think this is lifelong work, right, it takes work every single day to kind of focus on these aspects of your own personal health and your personal journey. And so you know, for any of you that are out there and agree and are struggling, you know there's a lot of us in the thing both. So just know the journey and that we're all in it together, all right. Last question how can our listeners connect with you and how can they get their hands on the book? Executive Loneliness.

Speaker 1: 33:26

Yeah, they can go to Amazon and the book is there both as a Kindle and also as an Audible book and it's called Executive Loneliness. Otherwise, I'm on LinkedIn as well. They can look up Nick Johnson. That's N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N.

Speaker 2: 33:43

Absolutely. We will have that information in the show notes. Feel free to pop open the podcast player. Click on in the book again is Executive Loneliness the Five Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, stress, anxiety and Depression in the Modern Business World. Nick, thank you again for joining us. Just a really, really great conversation on a critical topic, thank you. Thank you very much, kai.

Speaker 3: 34:09

All right, that does it for the Rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests. Follow us on Facebook at Rebel HR podcast, Twitter at Rebel HR guy, or see our website at rebelhumanresourcescom. The views and opinions expressed by rebel hr podcast are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any of the organizations that we represent. No animals were harmed during the filming of this podcast baby.