#160 Chris Zervas - Communication in the Interview
Sep 10, 2022Season 2Episode 160
Scott Townsend
Help support The Scott Townsend Show via Buy Me A Coffee www.buymeacoffee.com/scotttownsend
In this episode, I visit with Communications expert Chris Zervas about the things you need to think about when communicating during an interview. 0:00 intro
2:27 Setting the stage 4:51 Use their name 10:45 The importance of eye contact 18:16 Let me see your hands 21:40 How to handle anxiety around interviews 24:47 Visualization 28:39 Power Posing 33:28 Outro
For more contact information, you can reach Chris at www.chriszervas.com chris@chriszervas.com
Help support The Scott Townsend Show via Buy Me A Coffee www.buymeacoffee.com/scotttownsend
In this episode, I visit with Communications expert Chris Zervas about the things you need to think about when communicating during an interview. 0:00 intro
2:27 Setting the stage 4:51 Use their name 10:45 The importance of eye contact 18:16 Let me see your hands 21:40 How to handle anxiety around interviews 24:47 Visualization 28:39 Power Posing 33:28 Outro
For more contact information, you can reach Chris at www.chriszervas.com chris@chriszervas.com
Welcome to The Scott Townsend Show brought to you by Deetsoman Productions
Chris Zervas:
...and one of those Range Rovers that has no roof and no doors and his guide takes him up. And sure enough, they come on I don't know what you call a herd a flock a covey a welcome back to The Scott Townsend Show. This is Scott of cheetahs. I don't know what it is. But a family we'll just say it was a nuclear family of cheetahs. And he's watching the cheetahs and the cheetahs are watching them a little bit and cheetahs decide, you know, what are they going to look closer look. So a cheetah gets on the hood of the Range Rover and is like, you know, me to what appears you on this video screen. But another one crawls in the backseat behind the third row behind Britten Hays, and it starts licking the headrest beside him. And his guide is screaming don't make eye contact. Don't make eye contact dont make eye contact.Zervas Townsend. And today I have with me author, speaker, communication advocate and all around great guy Chris Zervas Chris, how's it going? I'm doing well how is Scott Townsend today.
Scott Townsend:
I'm doing great. Yeah. Awesome. You know, we've had you on for the last three other times, talking about communication, talking about communication in the interview process. First thing we spoke about you spoke about was the pre interview process. The second thing we talked about was the was the second one the
Chris Zervas:
Who's my audience,
Scott Townsend:
who's my audience. And then the last one, we talked about story, which was really a lot of fun. I love storytelling. I grew up in a family where that's pretty much all we did during dinner was tell stories. So today, what are we talking about the last the last of the four episodes we're talking about? What atr we're talking about setting the stage for the interview and anxiety.
Chris Zervas:
That's correct. That's correct.
Scott Townsend:
You know, I have a big problem with setting the stage. What I mean by that is, I believe in setting the stage. But I can't convince anybody to use another person's name, like the credit union down here. I won't say the name. But and I've even sent emails, suggestions that you know, no one ever. It's the sweetest sound to a person's ears is their own name. And so why don't you when they've got all my information up front, set the stage and go hey, Mr. Townsend, how's it going? And then, Mr. Townsend, here's your deposit. I get ready to go. Mr. Townsend, anything else I can do for you? Or Scott, I don't care. Hey, you will be better than just nothing. But I can't. Okay. So then the ushers at the church, I tell them try to learn the people's names. So when they walk in me and say, Hey, Chris, Hey, Scott. Hey, Billy, hey, Jane, how you doing? Come on in, you know, zero. Here's the other thing for retailers who are listening, if you have a retail business, you have the perfect opportunity to know someone's name and set the stage for massive profits down the road, because they more than likely are going to hand you over a credit card. And when they hand you over a credit card to pay for their purchase. All you got to do is look down at it. It's Chris Zervas. All right. Hey, Chris, is there anything else we can do for you? I didn't have asked for your name. I just read your credit card in the day used to be the check. So but it's that and that cost you know how much money that cost to do that zero money to make a connection to to lay down that foundation that you and I know each other a little bit. At least we know each other's name. I got my name tag on. I can't seem to convince anybody. I hope we can convince people on this podcast if we don't do anything else on this episode. We are going to convince people to set the stage for a good interview. And Chris, how do you do that?
Chris Zervas:
Well, one way names you are so right is the most important word to everybody. Scott So if I say people's names, they just feel valuable. We also have the ability to set the stage with the enthusiasm that we bring. I heard as a kid a statement that enthusiasm covers a multitude of sins. And I don't know that we're talking about sins in an interview as such, but it has the ability to cover a multitude of problems. So there was a researcher named Howard Friedman, who took a group of people. And he gave them a quick test, and he divided them into two groups. One group he identified as a group that was not very charismatic. And the other group he identified as a group that was very charismatic. And then he took individuals from each group and put them together for two minutes. Every time that anybody was influenced by anybody else, it was the group with high charisma influencing the group with low charisma. Never in his, in his studies, did anybody with low charisma influence people with high charisma, including putting people together and not even having them talk? All right. So when we go into an interview, we don't want to go in there. And we talked about this in our very first segment, you know, like, we ran over our dog on the way to the interview. I mean, our enthusiasm sets the stage, we have the opportunity to be even though it is not our home field advantage, we have the opportunity to be the thermostat in the room. And I'm not talking about going in to an interview and acting like John Wayne, or some some character that you're really not, but I am talking to rob and yeah, I am talking about if your level of enthusiasm is right here, then tow up to that like a free throw line, and get as close to your highest level of enthusiasm that's appropriate for the setting. Again, we talked a couple sessions ago about who's our audience, but our enthusiasm can cover up a whole bunch of problems that exist.
Scott Townsend:
Man, you just nailed me on a couple of those. One time I was doing an interview. I guess I'll leave the company. And it appears it was Philips in they flew me down to Houston. I was I was excited. I did all my research. I was on point. I was looking good. Feeling good. In the morning of the interview. i Yeah, drank way too much coffee. I mean, I got up early. I'm reading my notes again. You know, I'm like, auditioning for some big movie or something, you know? Right. Right. And so I go into the interview, and it goes well, but I get so energized. So this is an example of what not to do. This is an example what you just said, I'm gonna pass the free throw a line. I ran up under the basket. And I am just I am selling boy, I am I am cooking with gas. My voice is raised. I'm animated to the point where someone else poked their head in the door to make sure everything was all right. Like they're not having an argument or they you know, right, right. Right. Right, right. And then at the very end, then we have lunch and then so by the and then by the time the interview was over with, I was exhausted, I was all caffeined out. I was sent, you know. And so at the very last, she said something like, well, it was great to have you here and we look forward to visiting with you again and bah bah, bah, bah, bah, whatever. I don't remember what she said. But it was that parting conversation. And she goes, Okay, well, we'll talk to you later. And I said something like, Okay, whjaslkdgfjaorigv;lksd I couldn't even talk. It was unintelligible It was horrible. And no, I didn't get called back after that. So I was just I had the dial turned up to 11 I should have dialed it back to abouot a 10. So there is something to be said for don't be too over enthusiastic because that can happen.
Chris Zervas:
Yeah, I mean we you know that that segment we talked about a couple ago who's our audience is so critical i i remember a great bomb that I have by just totally miss reading the audience. This guy was all business and I thought we would try to talk for a while about, you know, things unrelated but he didn't care. and I droned on about things that weren't related to the interview. And after a while, I could just tell that this was not going as I had planned. So, you know, we, we all make mistakes in the process and get a little better because of it.
Scott Townsend:
You know it's funny now, but at the time, it was painful. Actually, it was a little laughable. Then I realized, as I was saying this, that was about the stupidest, dumbest thing you could do you know, but anyway, it makes for a great story down the road. There you go. There you go. So setting the stage using the person's name, how else can we set the stage? When it comes to the interview?
Chris Zervas:
Well, we can really set the stage with eye contact. Eye contact is a key to persuasion and believability. So there's this guy named Britain Hayes, who was a young man in Seattle. And he decided I've always wanted to go to Africa to see the cheetahs. And so he makes it happen. And he's in Africa. And he's in one of those Range Rovers that has no roof and no doors and his guide takes him up. And sure enough, they come on, I don't know what you call a herd a flock a covey of cheetahs. I don't know what it is. But a family will just say it was a family Yeah. It's a nuclear family of cheetahs. And he's watching the cheetahs and the cheetahs are watching them a little bit. And then the cheetahs decide, you know what I think I'm going to have a closer look. So a cheetah gets on the hood of the Range Rover, and is like, you know, me too, what appears you on this video screen. But another one crawls in the back seat behind the third row behind Britton Hayes, and it starts licking the headrest beside him. And his guide is screaming, don't make eye contact, don't make eye contact don't make eye contact. And the cheetahs are, you know, literally that close. And so Britton Hayes listening to his guide, didn't make eye contact. But in your interview, eye contact, as I shared is critical for persuasion and believability. Most people have eye contact between 40 and 60% of the time during a conversation. But to make an emotional connection again, we talked about em otion being a key cornerstone of our three legged stool of communication last time. But to make an emotional connection, we have to be engaged in people's eyes 60 to 70% of the time.
Scott Townsend:
So how do you do that without coming across? Like, you know, you're just really looking into their eyes and it becomes awkward. Do you look at their forehead and stare? No, you don't do that? Because then it looks like they're looking at something you might have mustard on your forehead or something. Right? Do you actually look at their eyes and just lock in on their eyes? Is there some bizarre trick here or when is looking too long? When when is becoming looking at someone? You're? It's
Chris Zervas:
awkward? Yeah, I think the 60 and 70% is kind of what we're looking at.
Scott Townsend:
Wait wait wait wait wait. But wait, wait, say that again. 60 to 70% of what?
Chris Zervas:
60 to 70% of the time so it's not 95% it's 60 to 70% of the time that you're engaged in dialogue. You want to be
Scott Townsend:
okay. Okay. I missed that. Okay, I'm sorry.
Chris Zervas:
It's okay. But you know, one thing that's really important is when I'm just learning, you know, my dad was an orthodontist. All right. So eye contact for me was a foreign concept eye to tooth concept tact was, was my MO my whole life. So when I learned to look people in the eyes, it felt creepy. So I'm kind of learning to, to lift my gaze and, and as a young man, I remember my boss was he was a great leader really strong. And when he would talk to me, I would look him in the eyes. But when I would talk to him, I would avert my eyes. And researchers will tell us that people with high dominance will look people in the eyes when they talk and we're not trying to be dominating by 90% eye contact, but we need to show a confidence, especially when we're talking to look people in the eyes between 60 and 70% of the time. So, you know, we can avert our gaze to grab a thought, but but holding eye contact is it's a pretty critical piece, to really setting the stage for success.
Scott Townsend:
A lot of times when I'm interviewing for this podcast, I'll find myself looking off thinking about what I'm going to say, maybe trying to form a question, or a story. And I find myself just looking off, you know, like, all the time, rarely looking at the person that I'm speaking to. And so that, I guess I need to work on that.
Chris Zervas:
You know, this this day of video interviewing is a challenge as well, because we have to learn to look at
Scott Townsend:
and they'll do what to do what
Chris Zervas:
to look at the dot, like the dot,
Scott Townsend:
like right now I'm looking at you, which makes me think I'm looking at you which I am. But for the viewer, doesn't, I'm not looking at I'm looking here. And you know, that's I gotta tell you, over 100 150 episodes that I've done with this thing, that's tough. That's still tough. That is tough. Because I can see you in my peripheral. I can see the camera right here. In getting all that to work together is is difficult. It's really difficult.
Chris Zervas:
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. Same with me, I'm trying to learn to look at the dot trying to still learn to look at people's eyes and not the teeth. And we're, it's tough for me to get up to the 60 and 70% of the time.
Scott Townsend:
Yeah, yeah. That's a good practice. And so this is where you know, when they say practice your interviewing skills, this is one of those, there's a lot of skills we've talked about this is one of them is, especially today, if you're going to go in person to person, that's one thing. I think we're all pretty familiar with that. But if you're doing a video interview, something over the zoom or something, where to look is important, what you're saying, Look into the camera as much as you can. I don't I personally, I don't do that, like this interview that we've done, I've looked at you the screen, and probably 90% of the time. So okay, so from here to the end, I'm going to try to look into the camera. So here we go.
Chris Zervas:
You know, they make a Lucite camera holder that you can hang over the top of your computer screen. And then you can adjust it. So you can put your camera at about the same spot and the monitor where your audience is, which makes it a little bit easier.
Scott Townsend:
And my brother is always busting my butt saying you need to look into the camera you need to look into the camera. Yeah. So okay, I get it. We're looking into the camera. I'm looking into someone's eyes. We're setting the stage for a good interview here. Yeah,
Chris Zervas:
yeah. Speaking of that, I'm going to kind of while we're talking about virtual interviews, and body language and etc. One of the things that's important in an interview, whether you're face to face or not, is that people see your hands. And think of the fight or flight mechanism. There's, there's a piece of us that when we meet somebody, and this is not a cognitive thought that's going through our mind that we're like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. It's more of a subconscious thought. But if I can't see somebody's hands, I immediately don't know. If I can trust them subconsciously, what did they have in their hands? That's why handshakes started. So people would know that this is a clear, yeah, we're safe. And so if you're in a video interview, it's great to have your hands visible. It. It's one tiny little checkmark in the interviewers eyes that says, hey, this person's trustworthy. So we want to do the same thing. If we're in an interview. We want our hands to be up on the table, not in our lap. Just again, it's a subconscious thing, but it makes us more trustworthy and creates zero doubt in the interviewers mind of that component. And there's obviously a million boxes we're trying to fill. But that's one little kind of tidbit that is to take away on.
Scott Townsend:
So if I'm in if I'm in an interview, how do I show my hands? My hands are right here. They're always right here. Hey, Hey, what's going on? Good?
Chris Zervas:
Well, I mean to that end, researchers are also saying that, you know, if you say, Hey, let me shake your hand or fist bump or high five, that so when when I shake your hand face to face when I see Scott Townsend and metropolitan Bartlesville, Oklahoma and I shake your hand, there's oxytocin that is exchanged, and that's that, that cuddle hormone. But when we do a high five, or a fist bump, or a virtual handshake, researchers are telling us that it also creates a little bonding. That is an input. Again, these are tiny little checkmarks. But they're important ones. In the interview process,
Scott Townsend:
very good. Talking about the millions of check boxes that we're trying to check. When you're when you're aware of all the boxes that need to be checked, that's nerve racking. And anxiety can not creep in it comes in and knocks the door down. Yeah, and just comes barging in. And so you find yourself. Caffeine, caffeinating yourself to try to overcome your sweat and your your mind's racing. So anxiety is a huge part of your life. No one likes to go to an interview. You never hear anybody go, man, I get to go on an interview tomorrow. That's gonna be so great. I
Chris Zervas:
can't wait to get a breakdown I needed that. Yeah, exactly.
Scott Townsend:
So how do you handle anxiety that you want to talk about anxiety for a little bit?
Chris Zervas:
Sure. Sure. Well, I think, you know, you mentioned a great piece is that there's no substitute for practice. So a practice interview where, you know, you've made a list of notes and your buddies are saying, Hey, your hands are on on the table, or you're not looking in the eyes, or, you know, you've rehearsed your stories that we talked about in the last segment, where these things are natural responses, I want to control as many controllable things as I can. So that the things that I can't control I can deal with. So practice allows us to do that. Another way is, you know, there's, there's a bunch of ways and and I'll give you a couple today, but visualizing success is is a huge deal. So as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is there's a fascinating story about America's Cup. And the Americans America's Cup. I mean, we just crushed countries for years, all through the 1800s, early 1900s. But the first boat that had a really good shot of beating us was in 1983, it was Australians. And the Australian captain was onto something because he handed every one of his crew members, a cassette tape. And he said, I want you to listen to this twice a day, for the next three years. And it was complete with waves lapping up against the boat, with the race being narrated, and ultimately, the Australian boat, beating the American boat in the America's Cup. And what happened during the 1983, America's Cup was exactly what this Australian captain had narrated as the Australians won. And, you know, research would say, well, they've already won over 2000 times in their mind, because they've heard this over and over, excuse me and over. So part of it is that we visualize success. And I'm not talking about New Age things. I'm I don't visualize my six my success as a sumo wrestler. I don't quite have that build. All right. But I can, I can visualize my success in something that I know I can be successful at an interview and I picture, you know, myself with great eye contact with I mean, just my hands on the tables. We've talked about those things, telling great stories. So preparing myself to be really successful.
Scott Townsend:
I totally believe in that. One day, Matthew, my son was going in for a karate competition. And he was gonna level up on his belt at this competition, which meant we had to leave at five and The morning, which meant we had to go to Claremore. That's so whatever kind of drive that is, and then you know, we're there before the sun's up. Before we left the house, he was extremely nervous to the point where he didn't want to go. Sure. He's like, Nah, I don't want to go, I'll never break the board. The one thing that had to do was kick and break the board, you know. And I'm just afraid that I'm not going to break the board, blah, blah, blah. So I finally got really irritated, I'm like, it's five in the morning, I'm, we're going, we've planned this getting, get your butt in the car, and we're going. So he was very reluctantly got in the car. So before we take off, just just do this, close your eyes. And I want you, you know, the processes that you have to go through to kick the board, there's a step, a sidestep, a swing, the arm, whatever, all that karate stuff. And then, and then you kick the board. I want you to just roll close your eyes and on the way to Claremore. I just want you to repeat those steps over and over. And I want you to see yourself kicking through that board. Just so he did he closed his eyes, he went through the steps, the arm swinging the spin around and the kick. And so what happened, we get to Claremore. And guess what happens? Broke the board.
Chris Zervas:
Karate champion baby.
Scott Townsend:
So. So you know, visualization, being able to put yourself in a winning situation before you get into the winning situation. And being able to visualize, and you're, you know, when you go through stuff like that you've already won, basically, now, it just becomes a matter of just like the Australians now, and it just becomes now all they've got to do is just execute what they've been thinking about for two years. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's awesome.
Chris Zervas:
Yeah, it goes back to what you said to I mean, you know, a lot of performers will say, the game or the performance is the fun, you know, the hard works already happened. And I mean, you know, just kind of like you said, not a lot of people are like, I can't wait to go interview today. But if I've practiced enough, if I've thought through the process and know my stories and know my body language, and etc, etc. And I'm thinking about them, I take all the pressure off of me, we talked about this in other segments that, who's my audience, I'm not thinking about me, thinking about how do I make this person successful? And what can I do to do that? It takes a lot of pressure off of us, and we can enjoy the performance, if you will.
Scott Townsend:
So that's really odd, just say that I enjoyed the performance and I enjoyed the interview. But you're so right, if you practice and practice and practice it, there is no room for anxiety because you know exactly what you're going to do. If I'm going to kick the football from the 40 yard line through the uprights, we're going to have a big problem that I've been if I've practiced my whole football career to do nothing but kick the football through the uprights. You can walk up there cool as a cucumber in front of 10 million people and just and that's done, you know. So yeah, that's good point. How else can we eliminate anxiety?
Chris Zervas:
You know, one of the things that I do when I get nervous is there was some research that came out a while back and I believe in it. It's called power posing. And the founder. I don't know the discoverer of this was a researcher named Amy Cuddy and power posing as a kind of a relaxation technique. But Amy Cuddy was a researcher at Harvard and she had graduate students in a class that she was teaching a psychology class. And in the front row, were a group of male students that really made themselves really big in the class, they put their feet up on the desk in front of them and, and they talked a lot in the class. In the back of the class was a young lady who sat with her, you know, hands between her legs, was kind of shoulders drawn, and rarely talked in the class. And being a researcher, Amy, Amy Cuddy thought, You know what, I wonder if there's something to this? And so she began to do some experiments and she sent people through to an interview where there was a two way mirror, and she had one group of people coming in for an interview that made themselves really big. And she had another group that came through and made themselves really small. The people that made themselves big, being judged by those outside the two way mirror were 20% more likely to be hired than those that did not. And when we power pose, it really is just making ourselves big, like a Wonder Woman pose, you know, some people do or I have literally gone into a bathroom stall before I was to speak before and, and just stood and made myself as big as I could or do that in the chair, you know, before you go into your interview. But what it does physiologically is cortisol is the anxiety hormone and we get nervous, man it just. But when we make ourselves big, it releases testosterone. And testosterone pushes down cortisol. Think of a gorilla beating its chest, a cobra fanned out, or a peacock all fanned out. I mean, they're saying, I'm the alpha male in the jungle, and you better get out of here. And so it helps create a scenario of confidence. And that's a really cool one. And I think meditating on the truth is another way to, to help us relax.
Scott Townsend:
Do you watch the show Ted Lasso.
Chris Zervas:
I know all about it. And I've never seen it. Anywhere. There's
Scott Townsend:
an episode where a guy's he's very timid, extremely timid. And so the coach of the soccer team, or football, like they call it in your shows, shows them how to become big and stretch out. And so that reminds me that Yeah, that's probably not something you want to do during the
Chris Zervas:
No. Put your feet up on the table. Yeah. Exercise interview. your your testosterone. That's not what you want to do. But but a couple minutes before you go in is what the researchers recommend to kind of put yourself in that frame of mind.
Scott Townsend:
Head back stand tall. Just walk in. Confident. Yeah. power posing. Yeah, absolutely. So Chris, is there anything else we need to talk about here? I know, we talked about a lot of stuff as far as interviewing goes. And I hope the people that are listening, watching this podcast, and that's the one of the goals of this podcast is to help people be better, do better motivate them to you know, learn, inspire. And so these last four sessions that we've had with you, hopefully, I'm sure if anybody has listened to them, and I encourage you to listen to all of them, is going to help you when you go rolling into your interview and lock down, lock down that next job. So thanks for taking the time to share with us all these tips and tricks and just common sense, things that will help people reach their goals.
Chris Zervas:
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. It was fun to get to do these with you and appreciate the opportunity.
Scott Townsend:
So if anybody wants more information, where do they go to either get in touch with you or to find out more materials that you have to offer?
Chris Zervas:
They can go to chriszervas.com. And there's a page on interview coaching that has some information of this and we'd love to be helpful to you in your interviews coming up.
Scott Townsend:
Great. All right, Chris. Thanks a lot. You're welcome back anytime.
Chris Zervas:
Thank you. It's great to be here.
Scott Townsend:
So for Chris Zervas, this is Scott Townsend. Thanks for watching, listening to The Scott Townsend Show. Have a great day and we'll talk to you later.
Britany McCullough:
Scott Townsend Show is a Deetsoman Productions. For more episodes, visit The Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
