Conflict Resolution: An Essential Skill for Aggression Cases and Beyond, with Carmaleta Aufderheide

Ever wondered how to navigate emotionally charged training sessions? Our latest episode features Carmaleta Aufderheide, who brings a unique blend of a master’s degree in conflict resolution and a robust background in working behavior cases. Carm’s journey began from a personal loss that fueled her passion to merge these fields. She emphasizes the critical role of empathy and communication, sharing invaluable techniques for understanding both the human and canine sides of aggression and separation anxiety cases.

We explore the art of reading clients as skillfully as reading dogs. Carm shares her insights on balancing actionable solutions with empathetic listening, highlighting the importance of recognizing non-verbal cues and the emotional states of clients. In this episode, you will hear how to create a safe environment and build effective relationships with clients, ensuring that your advice lands effectively and fosters positive change.

ABOUT CARM:

Carmaleta (Carm) is a positive reinforcement/force-free trainer in Springfield, Oregon.  She holds a Master's degree in Conflict Resolution (CRES), is a graduate of the Karen Pryor Academy (KPA-CTP), is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT-KA), and a Certified Separation Anxiety Trainer (CSAT). 

In 2016, Carm completed her Master's degree in conflict and dispute resolution (CRES) from the University of Oregon.  Her academic journey included research exploring the potential restorative impact of prison animal programming through interviews with incarcerated individuals working with and sharing their confined living quarters with dogs nationwide.  She has contributed insights from her research to a chapter in the book “Prison Dog Programs” published by Springer.  It was this research that inspired her career working with dogs. 

From 2016 to 2020, she dedicated her time to transformative initiatives as she co-directed and facilitated an innovative education and restorative justice program with adults in custody at Oregon State Correctional Institution with The Insight Development Group (IDG).  Her work with IDG allowed her to witness firsthand the profound impacts of education and restorative practices among individuals often in conflict with themselves, their past, present, and future.  Drawing inspiration from her research and work with IDG, Carm applies lessons from these experiences to bridge better connections in her work with dogs and their families. 

Today, Carm owns Northstar Training Solutions, where her work focuses on canine separation anxiety. Building on her background in conflict resolution (CRES), she specializes in bringing mediation and facilitation skills to navigate challenging conversations and enhance outcomes when communication becomes difficult. 

https://www.northstartraining.info/

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

You often hear me talk about how important the human side of working with dog aggression is so crucial to understand and the need for empathy and kindness for the humans involved as well as the dogs. Conflict resolution is a much-needed skill, not only for dog behavior consulting and aggression cases but, I think, for life in general cases. But I think for life in general. Carmeletta Ofterheide joins me for this episode to take a deep dive into the topic of conflict resolution what it is and how we can use this important skill to navigate difficult conversations. Karma has a master's in conflict resolution, is a KPA, ctp, a CPTTKA and a CSAT or Separation Anxiety Trainer. She specializes in applied conflict resolution and positive reinforcement training. Carm brings her knowledge in positive reinforcement techniques to complex behavior problems, ensuring effective and humane training practices. She leverages academic insights to address and resolve conflicts within professional dog training to facilitate better training outcomes. Over the past decade her mission has been to improve client communication, connection, training, compliance and navigating difficult conversations with compassion and understanding by applying simple tools to the trade in conflict resolution to optimize outcomes. And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior.

Speaker 1: 2:01

We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. We've got a very special topic this week. It's on conflict resolution and I can't think of anybody else better to talk about this, especially in our community. Calm After Heidi is here with us, so welcome Carm.

Speaker 2: 2:24

Thank you. I'm super happy to be here, mike. Thank you so much for inviting me onto the podcast and to give me a platform, an opportunity to bring conflict resolution and a few suggestions skills tips to people that I think they'll find helpful in how they're working with their clients.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Yes, I think this is such a much needed topic to talk about in our community because of all the problems we can face and the issues and the struggles. So let's start with you know what got you into this kind of work. So were you training first? Are you doing other kinds of work? What is your background in this?

Speaker 2: 2:59

It's such a great question. I am a late bloomer, I consider myself a late bloomer in life. Question I am a late bloomer, I consider myself a late bloomer in life and I got into conflict resolution before I was a trainer, which is why it had such a heavy influence into how I started practicing and started training. The story of how I got into conflict resolution is pretty interesting. I go ahead and I pursue conflict resolution. I apply to the program. I get in surprise to me, surprise, surprise. Couldn't believe I actually got in. I apply to the program. I get in surprise to me, surprise, surprise. Couldn't believe I actually got in. But I did, because I thought I was just too old and I thought they're going to say, oh good, try. But I get in.

Speaker 2: 3:34

And I had a lovely, lovely golden retriever at the time and this dog was my heart dog and I had never experienced a connection and a human animal bond in the way that I had with this dog. So about a week prior to starting the program, jake was his name got diagnosed with a hemangiosarcoma and three days before starting the program he was gone and I felt sucker punched and I honestly truly didn't think I could do the program without him. I didn't think I could do it without this dog at my side because we were so connected and I leaned into him probably more than I ever realized. I did like most people do with their dog, but they have this kind of connection. I had never experienced that, and so what I did is I went ahead and I started the program. It was horrible, it was in total grief and I decided somewhere somehow I was going to figure out how to merge the world of dogs and conflict resolution together and the program director at the time said good luck, nobody's ever done anything like that. I don't know how you're going to do it, but let's see what happens.

Speaker 2: 4:40

So I had pursued and did then research in prison animal programming and I was looking specifically at the human animal bond. It took an additional year in the program to do it, but I went to three different prisons in three different states one in Louisiana, one in Iowa and one in my home state here of Oregon and I interviewed, sat and interviewed inmates who were either raising dogs for service, because I wanted that longer term relationship. I wanted to know what the impact was. I wanted to hear their stories from their side about the restorative processes that occur as a result of this work, and then I, additionally, was able to connect with a program where a humane society is being run out of a prison system in Louisiana, which was incredible and amazing, and so that, when I started, that really precipitated my training career.

Speaker 2: 5:36

I graduated from CREZ and then I started working with dogs and I got certified and everything I did from that point forward just felt natural to bring a CREZ lens into it, and it was not until I started going to conferences that I realized this was an incredibly valuable skill, and the tools that I were using in conversation with my clients to get better training outcomes and to help them in a better way were things that I wanted to share and I felt there was a need for and that people were just kind of they had a little bit of it, but they were missing, and so that's kind of how it all comes together.

Speaker 1: 6:17

Wow, that is an incredible story. Thank you so much for sharing that and it just really that's an incredible journey that you've been on and you were mentioning, you know, how could we bring conflict resolution and dog training together. But look at you now you're here talking about it and it totally makes sense and it resonates with me. So I kind of want to talk more about you know, since we're on our aggression podcast and a dog training podcast, we should. You know what are some of the common things, because you do a lot of separation anxiety work and I do a lot of aggression work and people think when you hear conflict that word conflict you're like all right, this is like we're fighting or arguing over something, but it's not always that it might just be the disagreement or differing thoughts. So let's kind of dive into it. What are some common? Maybe? Experiences in your separation anxiety work where you're seeing what we would call like a conflict Sure work where you're seeing what we would call like a conflict.

Speaker 2: 7:04

Sure, yeah, I think this is such a great question because, regardless of whether and I think our two worlds come together in a really interesting way is regardless of if it's separation, anxiety or a case that's coming to me with a dog that's having trouble being home alone, or you're dealing with a reactive aggression case the is that when people find us and they're coming to us, they are usually in crisis. They are usually at a point in time where other things have failed spectacularly and they are reaching out for help and pretty much at the end of their emotional rope and what they are looking for is really a rescue. They're looking for someone to help rescue the situation because they have nowhere else to turn. So I really appreciate this question and what often comes up for me is, in these cases, when people come, is like holding space for them. It's really, honestly, the beginning process of any consult that I have, or any client that I work with, is I find it my responsibility and I take it very seriously to hold space for them and to pull in that CREZ part of my education and give them that space where they feel safe and they feel comfortable enough and not judged. They feel safe and they feel comfortable enough and not judged so suspending judgment is a huge part of this that they feel safe enough to be able to express what they're feeling.

Speaker 2: 8:30

But then we also have those people that come to us in these cases whether it's aggression or separation anxiety that want help but also hold their emotions and their feelings very close to their chest because of past experiences. So you know, and in that first session somebody may not just spew their feelings and their emotions and everything on the table. There's work to be done there. There's work to be done in valuing what somebody has to offer to the table. So I go into every single consult assuming that I have something to learn from this client, they have something to teach me and I know that they are contacting me because they are looking for actionable things and we feel the pressure as behavior consultants to provide those actionable things. In aggression, clearly a priority is gonna be safety in that first meeting, setting up a safe situation for the trainer and everybody to walk into.

Speaker 2: 9:24

And then two I want to take a look at that assumption that first meeting, setting up a safe situation for the trainer and everybody to walk into. And then two I want to take a look at that assumption of I have something to learn from you and, yes, I feel the pressure of giving you actionable things, but it's not my job to convince you you need to do this. It's my job to listen and be able to find those little nuggets that tell me what's going on for you and what your lived experience is and what you're willing and able to find, those little nuggets that tell me what's going on for you and what your lived experience is and what you're willing and able to put forward before we meet the next time. And that's where we're going to go. We're going to put those management pieces in place and we're going to talk about it and we're going to do one single actionable thing.

Speaker 1: 10:02

I'd love to jump into some of the skills and tools here that we can use for these conversations. One of the things I always just scream out there is the empathy part of it. Having empathy is such a crucial skill for anybody doing behavior, consulting, work, because of those emotions you were talking about. Let's face it when we're talking behavior cases like separation, anxiety, aggression we need to have empathy because of that People being at the end of their emotional rope, as you just mentioned. So, in addition to empathy, let's dive into some skills. What do you typically recommend? Let's say we have some new trainers like okay, this sounds great, I love training dogs but don't really know much about people, right?

Speaker 2: 10:40

Yeah, and there's a misconception to the general public that you know we get to play with dogs all day and we do On some level. We get to work and you know it's the joy of our lives and we love doing it. But there's a whole other element there and for trainers, we are really skilled a lot of time and invest a lot of time in understanding how to read canine body language and understanding what a dog is feeling and what a dog may be experiencing through the body language and the carriage in which, the way that they're carrying themselves, how they're reacting to things in their environment, how they're reacting to people, how they're reacting to sound, how they're reacting to being home alone, like all of those things. But we're very skilled at that. What we have let fall away in that formula is how well are we reading the people in front of us? How well are we noticing those small little shifts that we might notice in a dog's ear carriage? Literally, an ear shifting back and forth would mean something to us that we're not paying attention to in the people in front of us.

Speaker 2: 11:43

So whenever I'm doing a consult, I want to pay really close attention to the nonverbal communication that people are giving me. It's a gift. They are gifting me with this information and I receive it as a gift. Right, you'll see a shift. You'll say something, you'll present it and we don't know what's going to hit the mark or not hit the mark with people when we're saying it.

Speaker 2: 12:09

We're just providing information, given what we're seeing, the conversation at hand, and I'm always watching for an eye shift, a shift in weight, a shift in their feet. Did they tap their toes? What are they doing with their hands? Do we see them close their mouth a little bit tighter? Do we see them glance away and disengage for a second and then come back into it? That's a gift. When I see that happen, I take note of what were we talking about, what was the language that I used, and then I have an opportunity to just kind of pause, to take that pause and say what's coming up for you. When I say this, what's coming up for you? Because I noticed this is happening.

Speaker 1: 12:52

I like that.

Speaker 2: 12:53

And actually give them the platform and opportunity, instead of I keep talking and I keep giving them all this information. I need to read the room and I need to be really as skilled at reading the room and reading the people as I am at read the room, and I need to be really as skilled at reading the room and reading the people as I am at reading the dog.

Speaker 1: 13:06

Yes, yes, it's such an important point. Well, first of all, I'm not playing poker with you anytime soon. So if a new trainer's starting out in consulting, is there a particular resource you recommend to learn more about human body language, or do you have like a couple of go-tos just really briefly off the top of your head?

Speaker 2: 13:25

Yeah, I mean, honestly, you can do just a general search on human body language and there are like wonderful websites on the just subtleties of weight shifts, eye glances, does somebody sit up a little bit straighter? Do they lean away? Do they shift their weight away? That kind of thing that tell me they're disengaging from me a little bit. I've lost them, so I need to stop and figure out what's going on for them. Why have I lost them? And so, honestly, I just would recommend for any new trainer out there that they just do a general search and start looking into basic human body language and start applying it into, like, everyday conversations they're even having at home with their family, applying it into everyday conversations they're even having at home with their family. And when they see a shift, note it and just be like, hmm, ask and engage with that and just be like, hmm, what's coming up for you? What are you thinking? What's happening now? And it's going to give you information. It's like is what I'm thinking happening actually happening, or am I reading this wrong?

Speaker 1: 14:22

Yes, it's such a beautiful way. It's so subtle too, because we could say something else and we might not realize it. That could shut the door at the same time. So it's so subtle, but I love that you're asking the question to really find out where they're at, without being judgmental, without accusing them of anything, without getting frustrated ourselves. We're opening that door rather than closing it. I love that, that particular question right at that moment. So I was just going to kind of shift to other tools you like to use. I want to get as much out of the toolbox that we can in this episode, because that one was really good. So what else would you consider in terms of strategies? Maybe, like you mentioned earlier before we started, emotional intelligence and something that I've had to work on my whole life and understanding what that is, and developing more of a you know, emotional, empathetic side to these cases, because it's really a significant part of these cases that we work.

Speaker 2: 15:17

Yeah, absolutely, emotional intelligence is everything. So the next piece of what I would want to introduce to any new trainer or even any experienced you know well versed trainer out there that's been doing this for a long time and they feel really comfortable talking to people in these really difficult situations. Because what will happen sometimes in our training sessions is we will hit resistance, we will meet with resistance of either to I. I absolutely don't believe in my dog's going on medications. I only am going to give you about four weeks of time and I got to see if this is going to work. So we feel the pressure of time. They may have core beliefs and we'll talk about a little bit. We can go into core beliefs after this if you want. But they may have a whole history and beliefs, belief system in aversive tools, because it's what they were raised with, it's what their history is in, and they're reaching out to somebody in positive reinforcement for a reason. They're interested. They're dipping their toe in the water, but I can easily push them out of that and so I have to be really mindful and careful about how I do it. And so there's a lot of resistance and we can just have a flat out disagreement with somebody when we're in a training session of like, I absolutely am not going to do that, I don't agree with it, and then we find ourselves in a situation where it's like, okay, we got to take a step back down that road. That would be the next thing. So the first thing is I'm really, you know, I'm welcoming them, I'm trying to, you know, I'm suspending judgment, which was huge. Every day is a practice in suspending judgment for me. I am a work in progress. We're really good at judging. I'm super good at it. I think most people are. It's normal, it's a normal part of how we live. It's a normal part of life. And so learning to hear something, come at you and kind of practice that poker face and not show that, hmm, I don't like that one. Hmm, okay, we're going to go round and round about this one, we're going to suspend judgment because their lived experience is theirs, it's not mine, and it's valid. Whatever it is, it's valid.

Speaker 2: 17:24

And so emotional intelligence turns the table on us. It's not about what we're getting from our clients, it turns the table on us. And what emotional intelligence really breaks down into is these five different pieces. So there's self awareness, self regulation, motivation, empathy which we've kind of touched on a little bit, we'll go into a little more and social skills. And so when I'm turning the table on me, when I have somebody disagree, or I see something or I experience something that triggers a feeling or emotion in me, and I don't know what that's going to be for anybody, but I know there are certain things, certain phrases, certain things that are going to trigger something for me in a training situation.

Speaker 2: 18:09

I need to know what is my understanding of my emotions and thoughts, what comes up for me. And then how good am I at receiving that information and having this chain of feelings kind of put into play for myself but not get put into motion outwardly, right? So it's like, okay, I recognize this is what it makes me feel and how good am I at regulating that? So that second piece is that self-regulation. I feel it it's definitely like a pain point for me and now I'm experiencing these emotions which kind of shuts the door on like what else I'm going to be able to receive from my client. But then the second piece of emotional intelligence is once I get that information, how good am I at regulating it so that I can exercise emotional restraint right, so that I can be controlled when triggered to be able to like step outside of it and keep going forward and not putting emotions behind the steering wheel. Because if I let my emotions then in that moment get behind the steering wheel, I've just gone way off track and I'm not going to be able to help these people. I'm not going to be able to help them or their dog that are in front of me.

Speaker 2: 19:21

And then empathy, my emotional intelligence would be. I'm looking at empathy from two different perspectives. I'm looking at it from an emotional empathy perspective and then from a cognitive empathy perspective. And so cognitive empathy is I can appreciate and understand what somebody else is experiencing and explaining to me and I can kind of relate it to other life experiences I may have had, but I may not have had that exact same experience with a dog. But I can certainly empathize with how difficult and what a crisis moment this is for this family, for these people.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Whereas emotional empathy is I've had the same experience. I totally can tap into what you're feeling and I know that it's there. I can play both of those pieces interchangeably because I don't have to have had the same experience to be empathetic towards somebody and I shouldn't have to have had the same experience. So my emotional intelligence is how well am I able to like extend that part of myself to them while I'm emotionally regulating if I feel triggered by something right, and then I'm thinking about what's the motivation? So in my emotional intelligence piece, what's motivating this conversation? It's not that it should never be, that I want recognition, that I want money, that I want any. You know I'm looking forward in that way. Motivation needs to come from a place of self-improvement and self-development. I want to be motivated to be better at these conversations and to help these people in this moment the best that I can, and then that improves my social skills and my ability to help them.

Speaker 1: 20:58

That's so well put because it really got me thinking about, because we're kind of looking at both sides of the equation here. We're looking at the client side and their belief systems, we're looking at the trainer side or the consultant side, and it had me thinking about how much we might actually sabotage our own behavior plans and our own success in the case because of our belief systems. And it's definitely something I've become aware of in my consulting work over the years. Let's say it's a client that tells you you know, yeah, I pin my dog down, I take a newspaper out and you hear all these awful things that we have a visceral response to.

Speaker 1: 21:33

And when we're in a profession that often most of us start off because we're just caring about the dogs, you know, really focused on the dog's welfare and those kind of things we hear about those horror stories and can have such an emotional impact on us. And then we find ourselves sitting in front of a client and they're telling us these things what are your recommendations for people that might be? At that moment they're like, okay, I haven't quite been able to just brush these things off. Or you know, this all sounds great, learning emotional intelligence, but how do you actually get to that step and what do you suggest for developing that skill? Because it is a skill and it's not something that you can just develop overnight and be like oh yeah, you know, you're seeing animal abuse and then suddenly you're sitting in front of a client telling you those things. But we have to remain professional if we're going to truly help that animal and the client.

Speaker 2: 22:21

Yeah, that's a really well said, really well stated and such a great question. Because you're right, like I personally, like if I see a dog chained outside, it's really hard for me. And you're right, like clients are going to come to us and they're going to say things and they're going to present a story, a history, of this dog that may have pieces to it that are extremely offensive to me. So if you're new in this, the first thing that I would say is be kind to yourself, give yourself some grace. Right, none of us are perfect. I am still every single day. This is something I work at. It's something that I continue to work at.

Speaker 2: 22:59

I would never say I'm an expert at it, but I would say I am well-practiced at it. Okay, I would never call I'm an expert at it, but I would say I am well practiced at it. Okay, I would never call myself an expert in doing this, but I would. I would embrace that, that I'm well practiced, and so I. The first thing that I would tell people is is give yourself some grace. And if you want to practice your emotional intelligence, one of the better ways to do it is just in anytime you're watching the news or anytime you're watching something, that something comes up on your feed right On social media, that triggers you, that absolutely sets an emotion and a feeling and a mood in place, right, we get that chain reaction. The first thing that I want people to start doing is when they feel that the first thought that often comes to mind is I've got to prove that that's not correct. I've got to prove that that's wrong and I've got to express it, and I'm going to fight to the death on this. Avoid taking that step. And I want you to take a breath and take a step back, and I want you to think about and start really processing for ourselves. Why do I feel this way? Why does this trigger this response in myself? Because I can't help somebody else if I don't even understand why this is such an important, visceral thing for me. It doesn't mean that you know I'm always going to get there and I'm always going to have an understanding, but I'm going to keep working at that. I'm going to take that step back, I'm going to pause and I want to say what's happening for me. Why do I feel so strongly about this and I lean into a thing called the? You know, if anybody's ever heard me talk publicly, you will hear me speak about a feelings wheel.

Speaker 2: 24:44

I love the feelings wheel because what it is and I had, there's websites for it and things but I often use a feelings wheel and I've used it inside work that I've done with inmates and incarcerated populations Because what happens is like we have we have these core beliefs, and so what ends up happening in the feelings wheel is like so we have happy, angry, sad, and then we have frustrated, you know whatever, but whatever's on the positive side, these are needs that are being met. Frustrated, you know whatever, but whatever's on the positive side, these are needs that are being met. Anytime we have something negative that we feel or is occurring for us, then we are hitting and touching on a need, an emotional need for ourselves that is not being met. And unless we really start to explore and uncover the feeling behind it, understanding why we feel that way and what need isn't being met or understood, we're never going to flip it to the other side. So on a feelings wheel, the negative side or those unmet needs are always on the opposites, just directly opposite of the needs that are being met, and what happens is those core beliefs are generally what people express. They're like I'm angry, I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm frustrated, whatever. But the reality is is like what we're seeing is we're perceiving it as that, but it actually is filtered out into. Maybe I'm not angry, maybe I'm just feeling really isolated or lonely, and this is really hard for me, right? And so I can help use that feelings wheel to identify what somebody might be feeling. I'm not labeling it, I'm not putting it on them. It's like I think this is what's happening and I can help explore that. So I can do that for myself as well.

Speaker 2: 26:12

If something comes up for me and I'm watching the news and there's another school shooting or there's another thing that's happening in the world that I just don't understand, I approach it differently. Instead of you know, it creates this whatever emotional chain reaction in myself, I take a step back and I'm like why do I feel that way? And if I'm looking at it and understanding it, then I have a much better understanding of how, what needs to be met in order for me to move forward with that. And it's the same thing for our clients. It's the same thing. It's like they they're going to put out these like feelings and if I can help them in any way understand what the root of those expressions and those experiences are, then I can understand what isn't being met and together we can create goals and we can create training goals.

Speaker 2: 27:03

But so, in a very long roundabout way of answering your question, mike, if I'm looking at how do I improve my skills, I would start with anything that triggers me and just identifying what it is I feel and taking a look at like when that happens. What's the history behind that feeling? What's the history when that occurs that makes me feel that way? It's not right or wrong. I'm not trying to fix it, I'm not trying to answer it, I'm just trying to understand it, because unless I understand it I'm never going to be able to crack the door to meeting the need to get outside of that cycle.

Speaker 1: 27:38

I love everything you just said there Because when you think about it, it's just parallel to dogs, of course, that we're working with and understanding the cause, rather than just looking at the symptoms, right, and the expression of our feelings that happen without understanding the reasoning, we can't help that person or animal. So I'm loving how this conversation is going, but we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. If you're interested in hearing more about applicable and immediate steps you can use with your own dog or in your cases, I have a subscription series called Help for Dogs with Aggression, which is an additional format to this podcast where I walk you through a variety of aggression issues. Some of the topics already in the episode library that you would receive immediate access to include territorial aggression, emotions and aggression, dog-to-dog resource, guarding dogs that bite when being pet or handled, aggression on leash and a bunch more. These are solo shows where I take you step-by-step on how to work with each of these types of aggression. You'll find a little subscribe button on Apple Podcasts where the bitey end of the dog is listed, or a link in the show notes to subscribe using Supercast. Your support of the show is very much appreciated.

Speaker 1: 28:55

And don't forget to join me for the fifth annual Aggression and Dogs conference, either in person or online from Scottsdale, arizona, from October 11th to 13th 2024. This year's lineup includes many incredible speakers, including Dr Clive Wynn, veronica Poutel and Gina Fares, sarah Rodriguez and Jess Arachi, emma Parsons, sarah Colnice, dr Kelly Moffitt, sam Freeman, dr Amy Cook and many more. Head on over to AggressiveDogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts in dog body language to working with aggression in shelter environments, to genetic influences on behavior. Dr Amy Cook is also going to be bringing her entertaining and energetic personality to the grand reception and cocktail party which, by the way, will be live streamed as well as in person. And, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online, and I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference.

Speaker 1: 30:04

As a family of world-class trainers, fenzie Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports using the most progressive training methods and positive reinforcement techniques. Through their online platform, students are able to access professional dog training no matter your location or pup's skill level. Fdsa believes the bond between dog and human is a proud and life-changing partnership and they will work with you to develop a respectful and kind relationship with your furry best friend. Check out FDSA at FENZI dog sports academycom. All right, we're back here with Karma.

Speaker 1: 30:40

We've been talking about conflict resolution, amongst many other things that have been really helpful for me as well, and really unpacking all of the human side of the work we do, and you know we were just talking about tools and you had mentioned social media too.

Speaker 1: 30:55

I think that'd be helpful for a lot of our listeners because one of the most significant struggles I hear from trainers and consultants and my students is the impact of social media, where they kind of need it sometimes to market. I mean, some people disagree with that, but let's face it. We are in a social media society where people find your business and through social media, so you sometimes have to be on it and there's a lot of boundaries you have to draw if you're going to be healthy, really emotionally healthy. It can be challenging when you're on social media. So what are the differences? When we're in person with a client, we have the time, we can see the body language, we can have a much longer conversation versus social media. So what are your recommendations for trainers and consultants listening that have to deal with the trainer wars and all the conflicts that can happen on social media?

Speaker 2: 31:43

It's such a good question and it's a really powerful question, quite honestly, because we live in a social media world, we live in a digital world where we really rely on these tools, like you said, to build our business and to provide information and help to people that we want to give. So I think the biggest challenge of social media, quite honestly, is all of those tools that I use for conflict resolution, in reading the room, reading somebody else's body language, reading you know, all of those things that will cue me into asking more questions, trying to understand how they feel, trying to uncover what their history is, because if I'm not considering their history, I'm not able to really fully understand where they're coming from and what's going to be the next step in my training approach. So what happens in social media is all of that gets removed. All of those pieces that I really rely and lean into heavily to understand what's happening for somebody get removed, and so all I'm faced with is sometimes something really ugly coming at me, where somebody could be either attacking my methods or attacking the methods that I align with, or could be, you know, just saying something not so pleasant that's going to trigger me, and it's social media has become this place where bullying becomes very, very easy and bullying without repercussions, and so I'm a really big believer in the difference between accountability and responsibility. We'll kind of break that down a little bit. Responsibility is I take responsibility for it. I did that. I fully understand, I own it right. Accountability is I own it. I did that, and what do I need to do to repair the harms that I've caused? What do I need to do to make reparations for what's just occurred or what's happened?

Speaker 2: 33:38

And so people in social media don't need to be either they don't really necessarily have to be responsible or accountable to the things that they're saying, which is difficult at best. And so what I often encourage people to do is when something triggers them and something comes at them, I would, quite honestly, I wouldn't engage in the conversation. It is a black hole for you. It is not a place where anything productive or any conversation of any value is really going to take place, simply because you aren't able to read the room and, quite honestly, unless somebody is really willing to engage in that conversation and have that conversation with you so that you can better understand one another, you're not going to get anywhere. You're going to continue to try to throw facts at one another or throw shade at one another to prove your point, and the reality is that facts don't change people's minds they don't. We can throw all the facts in the world that we want about the research done on positive reinforcement, training and all the things that we know in the literature about aversive methods and things that don't work and the fallout of all of those things, and it's never gonna change somebody's mind or position.

Speaker 2: 34:58

The only thing that does is when you invest in somebody that's willing to have a conversation so that you can understand where they're coming from better, because once we understand them and we understand the history behind it, we have an opportunity. Then we've opened the door a little bit for them to try something that we're suggesting. But in social media that opportunity is void and nil. It's not an opportunity that's available. So when you find yourself triggered by something said, I would honestly not engage. Take a moment, give yourself some grace, and the question I would ask myself honestly in that moment is I wonder what's happening for them and I wonder what's happening in their history that makes them align so heavily with this belief.

Speaker 1: 35:42

Yes.

Speaker 2: 35:43

And leave it at that.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Yes, exactly, I think I should package everything you just said there because it's such gold advice. It's something that I wish I knew when I first started off five, 10 years ago. I'm getting into these some social media conflicts and reacting. So that's sort of the key phrase, sort of like we talk about dogs that are reactive. If you're reactive, you're going to often just get reacted back. Right, you're going to get a response from whatever you're reacting to.

Speaker 1: 36:13

So the travesty for me, too, is that in my position I get a lot of people that will reach out to me or folks that are trying to get on speaking engagements, just know, just put their information out there. But the travesty for me is that there's some folks out there that are afraid to do any of that because of the potential criticisms that they might face or the critical comments or any kind of negativity that can happen on social media, and that's just so sad because there's so much talent and knowledge and information that is not getting out there because it's getting stifled. And so if you're listening in right now and you're one of those folks that are you want to put a message out there, I highly encourage you, just do it. Do it and then take Carm's wonderful advice and pair it with that and that's how you can often survive that social media environment while getting the message you want to put out there into the mainstream. So that was just a top of mind thought for me, but it really was, I think, important to say that because I don't want people, good talent, not getting out there because we're just doing damage to the dogs and to the people we're trying to help, because that information is not getting out there.

Speaker 1: 37:19

So do what you got to do and put it out. There is my message there. Let's continue on. What other tools or what else is top of mind for you in this conversation?

Speaker 2: 37:33

where you would love to also add into this. Yeah, I think what's really top of my mind that I want to kind of circle back to is because I do conflict resolution and because this is like really front and center in how I approach any conversation, and particularly all of my training conversations. It doesn't mean that it's going to end well, okay. So the idea that, like resolution is in that you know phrase doesn't mean resolution is going to always happen, and it doesn't mean that it's going to feel good. Conflict doesn't feel good. I have the same visceral response that everybody else has when something gets really hard or somebody comes at me, or all the time you can be in the middle of a conversation, even with you know clients that you've been working with, or even those that you're just meeting for the first time, and you're kind of blindsided and surprised by how aggressively somebody might come at you with something, that difference of opinions. For me, though, what I have to remember is that when somebody else is giving me a very emotional, visceral response, that's gold. That's absolutely the gold I'm looking for, because that's the gold that I need to explore. That's the gold I need to kind of dip. That's the gold that I need to explore. That's the gold I need to kind of dip my toe into in order to be able to really understand and help them.

Speaker 2: 38:50

But so these conversations are not always going to go well. They're not. You know, we're not going to like do this huge process and really understand people, and we're limited in time. We're limited in the time that we have in our consults and our time to work with them, and so we have to really kind of, outside of these moments, work on those separate pieces and get better at them and pull them in where they're needed, when we need them. And then sometimes we have to just agree to disagree, and it's okay to do that. Every conversation is not going to end well and you're going to walk away going oh God, okay, that didn't end nearly as well. I should have done this or this or this or this would have gone better if I had. You know, we always think in retrospect of all the things we should have done, and so I often want people to create what I call a wishing well, and the wishing well is after a conversation if it didn't feel good, it didn't feel great. I want you to put in that wishing well the things that you wish you had done better, and then you keep working at those things, because those things will keep coming up and you keep working at those things. But the next piece would be I want to really kind of talk a little bit deeper about what informs beliefs and where people are coming from when they come to us.

Speaker 2: 40:10

Because whether it's an aggression case, whether it's a separation anxiety case, there are things that people will come into a session. They come with core beliefs and they may be very, very different than ours. So core beliefs are those things that really give us a lens into how we view and perceive the world in front of us, and for everybody that's different. We are not born with core beliefs. We are not born with them. These are things that we learn through life experiences and as we move through the world. It's the things in trauma, it's the things in childhood that have informed the world. It's the things in trauma, it's the things in childhood that have informed the beliefs. It's the things that we've been modeled, all of those things. It's the communities that we live in, the places that we work in, all of these things that put us in a community that support our beliefs. Right, because we often will put ourselves in communities where our beliefs are supported, because it's uncomfortable to go outside that.

Speaker 2: 41:02

So when we're now in a conversation where I'm presenting information they're interested, but I'm presenting information or I'm seeing something that completely counters and goes against their core beliefs, I need to take a step back and I need to understand it, and so I'm going to spend some time really trying to understand what their history is, because everybody comes to the table with a history and if I'm just assuming that I'm going to railroad through and just brush aside what their core beliefs are or what they're asking you know, when they're asking for help, what might be stopping them from actually moving forward with that help, then I've missed a huge piece of the puzzle, and so I want to spend some time really trying to understand what's somebody's history with this. So, for example, we have clients that are just like you know all the time. Like you said, they're going to say things in that initial consult that you have to have that poker face, you're going to suspend judgment, because it's like, as an example, I had a client come in and when I was working, reactivity and aggression cases before I was doing separation anxiety and he just had this real firm floating in the aversive dominance world and he had a pit bull which was lovely. It was this lovely little pity loved this girl. She was such a sweet girl.

Speaker 2: 42:26

And so we have a couple of dynamics happening here. We have, like this dog that's having these reactive moments and showing some aggression. We have an owner that is really leaning into aversive tools and believes he needs to dominate his dog because his dog needs to know that he's boss. And then we have the wife who is on the sidelines and doesn't necessarily agree with him. So we have two differing opinions occurring between husband and wife and I'm finding myself kind of in the middle of a therapy session of I have to uncover what's happening between them, because unless we get both people finding a common goal, I'm not going to be able to help move them forward.

Speaker 2: 43:03

So a lot of that comes into what's the history for him. He has a whole history and a whole, you know, background in why he believes so firmly in aversive tools. Why does he believe so heavily that he needs to dominate his dog? So we went there, we had that conversation, we gave the dog something to do.

Speaker 2: 43:21

The dog was doing fine in the room and we had that conversation which helped me understand and also helped him understand a little bit better the concerns that his wife was having and why she was afraid and why he wasn't afraid. And that way we could come to one single common goal and that's what we worked on for the next two to three weeks and when he started to see the relationship with his dog change by not dominating him, then the door cracked open a little wider to try something else and to try something else and to try something else. And he took the choke chain, he took the prong. Collar off of this dog, he stopped being aversive, he stopped trying to dominate him. Collar off of this dog, he stopped being aversive, he stopped trying to dominate him and, mainly unbeknownst to him, it's because he allowed himself to express and had the opportunity to be heard and understood in a way that nobody had listened, instead of just trying to tell him why that wasn't going to work.

Speaker 1: 44:19

Amazing, amazing transformation too, and what I would sense is a short time, in my experience too for a paradigm shift like that to happen. Would be wonderful to be a fly on the wall during a consult with you just to see the navigation of the conversation. In terms of that, I'd love to kind of, before we wrap up, talk about some of the resources too that are available out there. We know there's limited resources for dog trainers and consultants, so there's some books, like some of my favorites, like the Human Half of Dog Training with Dr Risa Van Fleet. Crucial Conversations Never Split the Difference. Those are some of the common ones that are talking about conversational skills, but one that's sort of I wouldn't call it new, but newer to the dog training world is nonviolent communication. Do you want to talk more about?

Speaker 2: 45:01

that, or maybe even the topic of it.

Speaker 2: 45:10

Oh, you are just like lighting up my world. Yes, absolutely, because where all this leads to are in conflict resolution and mediation and facilitation skills is nonviolent communication, and this is where it all kind of filters down into. So we have all of these other things at play that we're considering right, that we've talked about, that we've discussed, and how do we apply it into actual tools and skills in the moment, and what it comes down to is nonviolent communication. And what nonviolent communication is is it's broken down into four steps, four very simple steps. Simple, although not so simple. Simple because it takes practice to actually rehearse them.

Speaker 2: 45:45

But the first step is observation, and so observation is when you're doing a consult, your first step is observation. It's not judgment. You're suspending judgment. You're not putting any labels on anything. You're not doing any of that. It's facts only. What are you seeing? And if somebody is expressing an emotion, what is it that you're seeing? Just observations only. That's the important first step. The second step is going to be feelings, right? So you observed this, and so then what you have an opportunity to do is mirror back the feelings that they're expressing. To do is mirror back the feelings that you're that they're expressing. It's like.

Speaker 2: 46:27

So when I said that you know when, when we were talking about this or you were describing this behavior in your dog, I noticed that your voice got a little bit more intense. You were talking about dominance. There was, you know, things got a little harder for you. Can you help me understand what's happening and what comes up for you there? Because what's happening is I want to explore and I want to understand. I want to make sure that when I'm mirroring back, they understand that I heard that, that I understood and I'm actually listening and I'm hearing what their experience is. I'm not judging it, I'm not trying to fix it, I'm just trying to repeat back what were the feelings that you were experiencing as you were describing that situation? Are you, are you totally embarrassed? Are they expressing complete embarrassment by what their dog is? You know what are their, their goals and expectations of this dog? That might be unrealistic, fine, but like what are you feeling? Why do you feel like that's so important to you? Why do you feel like this dog that has a huge history in aggression and a few bites needs to be a therapy dog? What's happening there? Right? Why do you feel that? But I need to understand and mirror back, like I've observed this what are you feeling, right, when I see this, what comes up for you or when I've, you know, when you said this and then needs.

Speaker 2: 47:41

So when we're talking about feelings, just like we did in that feelings wheel, so now we're like tapping into, I've noticed this. Are you feeling this when I say this? And let them have an opportunity to kind of explain and expand and say more about it than needs. So what would you need? Ask them, give them the opportunity. It's just like. So maybe what you need is to feel a little more secure and safe when you go on a walk so you don't get drugged through a ditch. I get that. Okay, that makes sense to me.

Speaker 2: 48:09

And let them say what I'm looking for in any conversation is that moment where a client says to me yeah, that's it, that's exactly it, because if I've done my job correctly here, then I've listened to them, I've observed it, I've been able to mirror back what I've observed or what I've heard them say, and ask them what feelings, if I haven't really identified a feeling, what do you feel when I say that or when you're saying that, and then identify when you're feeling that, what do you need, what's the need that needs to happen here, and then what's the one actionable request given that, then would you be willing to try this? I can make a request, or they can make a request of? I need to just be able to walk my dog and feel safe. So it really comes down to nonviolent communication. I was at a conference and it was the first time I'd seen the nonviolent communication book at the dog wise table, and I was. I literally almost like jumped.

Speaker 2: 49:04

I mean, I was so excited and I talked to them. I was like who put this book out? Who put this book here? Who put this book on the table? So the people at the dog wise table were not so sure that was a book that really belonged there and I was like this book absolutely belongs here because it's not about dog training. That book is not about dog training. But the book is about how to employ these four steps observation, feelings, needs and requests into actionable things in how we have any conversation. And if you practice it, what you're going to find is how you approach your consults and how you approach a training session are going to be different. And what you will also find is you are developing a stronger connection and a stronger mode of communication with your clients and you're going to have better buy-in from your clients and you're going to have better training outcomes.

Speaker 1: 49:57

Wonderful, wonderful. And if I had to guess, it would be Erica. Erica Austin, who works with DogWise, probably put it there. She's amazing, loved her.

Speaker 2: 50:05

I was just like I literally hugged her. I'm like keep this book on the tables.

Speaker 1: 50:10

She's doing great work for DogWise as well as the rest of the dog training community, so shout out to Erica.

Speaker 2: 50:16

Incredible yes.

Speaker 1: 50:17

And you're going to be speaking at speaking of conferences. You're going to be speaking at the Aggression and Dogs Conference. I'm really excited for that one. Real quick, what are you focusing there? What's your focus going to be on for the topic?

Speaker 2: 50:32

Yeah, I'm super excited to have the opportunity to actually present this material because I feel like there's a lot of people really kind of skimming the surface of this and they've got some skills, They've got some things happening.

Speaker 2: 50:44

They just don't have the bigger picture and understand how to pull it all together.

Speaker 2: 50:46

So what I'm going to be talking about at the conference is we're going to dive into each of these things. We're going to dive into human body language. We're going to dive into, you know, core beliefs. We're going to dive into emotional intelligence, the feelings, will and actually how to apply these tools in what you do in your work, regardless of whether it's shelter work or whether it's. You know you're facing time limitations, you're doing aggression, you're doing separation, anxiety or you're just teaching classes and you're meeting resistance and not being able to convert those people that are reaching out to you into training packages, and why might that be happening? So I'm going to be diving into all of those things and we're going to go do a deeper dive into nonviolent communication and how to actually use those tools and those skills to improve the way that you're having conversations and how to change the course when things feel ugly, when they don't feel good and suddenly you find yourself in a situation you hadn't planned on being in.

Speaker 1: 51:49

I'm really looking forward to that. And what else do you have coming up this year? Where else can people find you?

Speaker 2: 51:54

So where they can find me. I live in Oregon, I'm in Springfield and I'm kind of living a quiet little life here. I run North Star Training Solutions in Oregon and I only work separation anxiety. It's the thing I primarily focus on. I'm a CSAT. I'm a certified separation anxiety trainer, also on staff with Milena DiMartini, so I'm doing cases and work with her as well. I just give local talks quite honestly on both. I've given a few talks to the CSAC community on difficult conversations mainly directed towards that community and covered this and then also just done some separation anxiety talks. But I am always open and happy to talk to anybody if they don't want to wait till the conference and they need to reach out to me and they're just like okay, I heard your podcast, this is really great. These are tools that I feel like I need. They can reach me at my email. They could always email me at karm at northstartraininginfo, and I am always happy to consult and help people kind of navigate the slippery slope when things go south.

Speaker 1: 53:02

Wonderful Karm. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation and I'm really looking forward to seeing you at the conference.

Speaker 2: 53:09

Thank you, Mike. This was so fun. I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. I could talk about this all day long, so clearly as you can tell. So I really appreciate the platform.

Speaker 1: 53:21

Great, Thank you. It was absolutely wonderful chatting with Carm and I picked up some really great insights that I think I'll be using in my conversations, both in my dog behavior consulting practice and, I think, life in general. You know this might sound cliche, but I know the world will be a better place if conflict resolution became part of our mainstream culture. And don't forget to head on over to Agg aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, From the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs.

Speaker 1: 54:02

We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends.