The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Living with Livestock Guardian Dogs: Strategies for Success with Elizabeth Ingalls
What does it take to truly understand and live with Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs)? Join us for this enlightening episode to hear about the knowledge and strategies that are essential for successfully integrating these remarkable, independent dogs into your home. Our special guest, Elizabeth Ingalls, an LGD behavior expert, shares her personal journey from fostering a Pyrenees mix to leading Big Fluffy Dog Rescue and running her own consulting practice.
Elizabeth unpacks the unique traits of various LGD breeds such as the Great Pyrenees, Maremas, and Anatolian Shepherds, shedding light on their intelligence, autonomy, and the behavioral challenges they present. Whether you're a current LGD owner or considering becoming one, you'll gain valuable insights into why these dogs often end up in rescues and shelters, and how to navigate their transition from livestock guardians to household pets. We delve into breed-specific characteristics, the importance of understanding your dog's motivations, and how to manage their natural behaviors like barking and territorial aggression.
ABOUT ELIZABETH (She/her):
~Bs in Biology - graduated with honors
~CDBC via IAABC
~L-FDM- Shelter Division
~In my 19th year of working with dogs!
~Former- Executive Director of Big Fluffy Dog Rescue- specializing rescuing LGD breeds and their mixes
~Current- behavior consultant for National Great Pyrenees Rescue and several other rescue
~Current- Owner Elizabeth Ingalls Dog Behavior and Training- working with dogs and their humans nationally and internationally- last count was 37 states and 5 countries ;) In person locations include CT, NH and FL
~Specialize in LGD breeds- especially ones who are in pet homes.
~Voted the #1 remote dog trainer in the US, and the #1 dog trainer in CT by Sniffspot
~Founder and moderator of the Facebook Group 'Great Pyrenees Training that Works'- a R+ group dedicated to helping pyrenees and other working breeds owners
-Currently lives with 2 LGD mixes, Darwin and Phoenix and a husband
-Can be found traveling in our RV with the dogs as much as possible.
Elizabeth's Webinar on Great Pyrenees:
https://www.elizabethingalls.com/videos/v/greatpyreneesthebasics
Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
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The Aggression in Dogs Conference
Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
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Big old fluffy dogs like Great Pyrenees or Maremas can be so visually appealing, but do unsuspecting pet guardians sometimes bite off more than they can chew with livestock guardian dogs? Elizabeth Ingalls, an expert in LGDs and their behavior, joins me for this episode on all things livestock guardian dogs. On all things Livestock Guardian Dogs. Elizabeth has a degree in biology, is a certified dog behavior consultant, a licensed family dog mediator and is the former executive director for Big Fluffy Dog Rescue, which specializes in rescuing Livestock Guardian Dog breeds and their mixes. She's also a behavior consultant for the National Great Pyrenees Rescue and owns Elizabeth Ingalls Dog Behavior and Training and works with dogs and humans around the world.
Speaker 1:And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior. We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs. Hey guys, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week we're going to be talking about livestock guardian dogs, and I have an expert on this topic with me, elizabeth Ingalls, who I've known for quite a few years and we've had some experiences working together in different aspects of everything from rescue to training, so I am excited to welcome Elizabeth. Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and talk about my favorite subject.
Speaker 1:So let's jump right into how you got started in this work and working with these LGDs. You had worked in rescue before, so tell us a little bit about your background and what got you into this.
Speaker 2:It was actually completely by accident that I got into working with livestock guardian dogs. The story goes I lost my golden retriever. I wanted to foster and rescue and a transport company needed a foster for a puppy with an unknown to me rescue at the time and it was a little pure mix puppy and I fostered that dog and that dog was with Big Fluffy Dog Rescue and so it really just grew from there. I became a volunteer and then the president of the organization and eventually executive director of the organization and we really grew at least at the time that I was there from placing, I want to say, about 400 dogs a year to about 2,500 dogs a year when I left and I'm sure they're placing even more dogs now Like it was a really big and wonderful operation. And so not only did I fall in love with Livestock Guardian dogs and their mixes and rescue and that whole thing, but I also I became kind of the solution for some of the behavior stuff.
Speaker 2:When there was something wrong, I was local and I was going to figure it out. So I got my chops kind of diving in and hands-on experience and luckily for me, I had a lot of people I could reach out to you being one of them right when I needed help and lots of reading and lots of learning. I tell everyone I did lots of things wrong until I figured out how to do things right, but that's really where I started and then resigned from just background-wise, resigned from Big Fluffy and opened a private practice doing behavioral consulting and now I get to do what I love I have. A vast majority of my clients are livestock guardian dogs. I work with clients both nationally and internationally and it's really cool. I enjoy what I do.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. It's quite an amazing journey too. I mean, it also kind of makes me feel old, because I remember when we worked back in the day.
Speaker 2:I actually I've been working with dogs for 19 years now.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah, and now here you are, a certified dog behavior consultant working your own private practice, which is just an amazing journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you know we were talking before the show started. We were talking about just this huge influx of dogs now to rescue to organizations like the one you used to head up, and such a significant increase in the number of livestock guardian dogs ending up in rescue. So can you tell me more about what you're seeing there, what you're witnessing with this influx of livestock guardian dogs in rescue and shelters?
Speaker 2:Yes, man, that is a complicated question and with lots of answers and layers to it. So just for some context, I'm the on-staff behavioral consultant for National Great Peer Rescue, so I help them with unknown dogs or dogs who are coming back into rescue, who are dealing with you know, aggression-related behaviors or fear-related behaviors.
Speaker 2:So I get a good firsthand experience there. Say, 10 years ago it was very rare to see a purebred livestock guardian dog in a shelter and if you did, it was maybe a great Pyrenees. Over the last 10 years, for a variety of reasons, over the last 10 years, for a variety of reasons, we've seen a huge increase in not only the number of dogs that are needing to be rehomed, either in the shelter system, privately, whatever, but now we're seeing multitudes of these kind of what used to be considered rare breed dogs. So the increase is huge. I actually went on. There's a giant, I think. The page is called Great Pyrenees Rehoming page. They have 53,000 people on that page and I went and just on that one page alone I counted out some stats for a week and last week there were 56 dogs listed just for rehoming and these were mostly dogs in somebody's home and you know, for top common reasons they were looking to rehome them.
Speaker 2:So I think we're seeing an increase in some ways, from looking at Lena's article about livestock guardian dogs that we're seeing an increase in small farm homesteads having the need, or thinking they have the need, to get a livestock guardian dog, also seeing it as a potential income producing opportunity. So breeding these dogs and then not selling them. And rescues and shelters are getting these dogs in by litters and I don't know if you know livestock guardian dogs usually have large litters, like 12 plus puppies, so they're showing up everywhere. I mean again, in 10 years ago getting a purebred livestock guardian dog from rescue was like finding a unicorn, and now they're a dime, a dozen.
Speaker 1:What do you think the appeal is? I mean-.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're adorable. Livestock guardian dog puppies are fluffy, cute, sweet. So if we're talking about puppies, who doesn't want just like a giant white, fluffy puppy who is placid? When we think about breed group traits, right, I think that people think livestock guardian dog breed groups as puppies are easy because they're observant, they're calm, but that's what we've brought them to be observing Like we expect herding breeds to be kind of chasey and nippy as puppies, we expect gundog breeds to get excited and be mouthy, and so people get these dogs as puppy and they're easy, they're placid, they're sweet and they're just like yeah, man, let's chill, let's look at things.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, everything's great. Man, let's chill, let's look at things. Oh yeah, everything's great. But what people aren't as aware of is that because we bred them to be observant, that's how they are. Then we get to social maturity and all those things that they've observed, suddenly they're going to be like all right, I know what to guard now and I'm going to take care of this space and be aware of all of this stuff. So it comes as a shock to people. So I think, like I said, there's a huge list of reasons.
Speaker 2:I think, again, there's a common misconception about how to raise working dogs, kind of this hands-off option of we throw a dog in with stock and we expect it to just intrinsically know to do the right thing. And these dogs still need guidance, either from an adult livestock guardian dog or a human who's going to say we don't chase the lambs, we don't eat the chickens, those sort of things. So failed working dogs is one part, and again, because these dogs are inexpensive, now a lot of people are saying I'd rather just get rid of the one that ate all the chickens and try again for a hundred bucks, as opposed to really working with that dog and teaching them what's appropriate. I think with anything there's nature and nurtures, there's genetics and we never want to fight it. But we also need to understand that not every dog who is bred to be a livestock guardian dog, even if its parents have all of the perfect traits, is going to have that drive out of 12 puppies. Not all of them is going to want to card or want to be out in the field, and so there's the failure on that end.
Speaker 2:And on the other end of that there's failed pet dogs, where they find themselves in an environment that they're not equipped for and can't handle. Oftentimes we see that in urban environments, in heavily populated suburban environments. I'm not saying that these dogs can't be there. I mean I have them in suburbia. But, trust me, we work hard to normalize the environment and make affordances and I understand there's a lot of challenges that come with that. So failed working dogs, failed pet dogs, again, inadequate preparation for what these dogs actually are as guardians. Again, they're easy, lovely puppies and they hit adolescence and it seems like people's heads explode. All of these behaviors they were not expected and didn't see and seem dangerous and problematic to it. Suddenly, when you've got a hundred pound adolescent who decides they're not letting grandma in the house Because to us we love grandma and know her and to them she's a stranger and some weird old lady trying to come in the house and so those things tend to be problematic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so the travesty here is just really not understanding what we've selected for in livestock guardian dogs. So I'd love to jump more into that in just a second, but I did want to give a shout out to Dr Lena Kaiser's article, which you mentioned. It's on aggressivedogcom and it's a great article and gets into the reasons and some of the statistics on what we were just talking about, all this significant influx of dogs in rescue and shelters and all of the reasons you just mentioned, and so let's talk about that. You know again. Let's just back up a little bit, in case somebody is new to livestock guardian dogs. What are they selected for, what are the breed characteristics and what are some of the breeds that encompass livestock guardian dogs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, like the name implies livestock guardian dog we have selected them to guard livestock and, with that being said, we have chosen dogs who have lower prey drive and we can talk about what that looks like Protective and using ritualized aggression to deter threats. And if you're not familiar with those terms and all of that stuff, you know they're not bred necessarily to run off and fight every bear and coyote that you know comes across, but they're going to use barking behavior, right, bark, bark, bark, to let everybody know they're there. Hey, if you come over here and mess with me or my flock, you'll have something to deal with. But also that they are large enough and confident enough to engage with a threat should they need to, but ideally again, for the safety of everybody involved. They used kind of escalated, ritualized aggression and upping their threat level. You've also bred them to be relatively independent. Traditionally these dogs were on hundreds of thousands of acres with probably a group of dogs and maybe a shepherd and that sort of thing. So they have been bred to be independent, not stubborn, which I hear all the time, but to be able to make a decision without human input. They're not looking to me to say, oh hey, mom, should I tell that coyote over there to piss off? They're making that decision in the moment and what they feel is right and correct and they're also determining who their charges are and everything like that. So we have bred that traditionally is what we have bred them to do.
Speaker 2:So as far as breeds and things like that, I tend to think of it as breed group characteristics more so than breed characteristics per se. Only because I think that you know there's so much variability and you know this right. And in any breed group of dogs there are dogs with great Pyrenees who are welcoming to everybody and their dogs are other end of the spectrum who think everybody's a threat and you know, kind of is like Gandalf, thou shall not pass, sort of thing. So there's variability in all of that. But overall what we see as far as breed characteristics are you know they sound negative but they're what we need Territorial aggression, right Intolerance to strange dogs, creatures, everything like that Intolerance and oftentimes suspicion of strangers.
Speaker 2:Again, most of this hits at social maturity. As puppies they're very welcoming and sweet and happy to meet everybody, but they tend to grow up to be suspicious of strangers. We also see any sort of guarding behavior we see in the home, sometimes like resource guarding and those sort of things. But we've bred these dogs to guard what they perceive as their resource, and sometimes that includes their flock and all of that sort of thing. So those are a lot of the breed traits that we see. I also think motivation, again with that independent sort of thing, doesn't mean they're stubborn, it doesn't mean they're stupid, but it also doesn't mean they're overly interested in working for food per se or lots of repetition and training. And that can sometimes present a challenge both for owners and for people professionals who are working with these dogs, kind of understanding what their motivation is.
Speaker 1:And at least in the US, we're seeing a lot of great peers and Maremas, and now we're starting to see some of the other livestock guardian breeds coming in. So can you talk more about them? Like you know, which breeds encompass this whole umbrella of livestock guardian dogs, and what are more common? What are we?
Speaker 2:starting to see the kind of traditional five like five big white fluffy dogs that we always saw, like the Tatra, the Marema, the Pyrenees, the Akbash, and that was four. I'm missing one and I'm sure I'll think of it later. So on that end we've got they're slightly less stranger, directed aggression and less likely to kind of like leave an engaged sort of thing. And then on the other end of things we get what we call kind of sharper temperaments and a little more athleticism. In the middle we've got Anatolian Shepherds. Those are relatively common around here but we're kind of seeing what we used to consider rare breeds Caucasian of Charka, central Asian Shepherd. We're seeing a lot of these kind of really powerful dogs who also traditionally tend to they were livestock guardian dogs but they were also property guardians and things like that and we're finding that they're much less tolerant of typical life in suburbia and strangers and things like that and, to the point, heavy, heavy management is required for safety in a lot of not all of them, but several of them.
Speaker 1:Have you seen any influx of Kangals yet? If anybody's been, on Instagram too, they can look for those videos and you can see just how powerful and large those dogs are. Have you seen much of that in the US?
Speaker 2:So I'm seeing more of that on the West Coast, for whatever reason over seeing it on the East Coast. On the East Coast we're seeing a lot of Central Asian Shepherds and Caucasian of Charkas, and then on the West Coast we're seeing that and I don't know. I'm not quite sure why that population difference is, but yeah, we're seeing huge amounts of those breeds in like even LA. Just recently there was I had a client who picked up a puppy from a shelter and that's what it was so and the whole litter got surrendered which I thought yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and these dogs are no joke and they're big and they're powerful and they can be. You know, they can be intimidating. They were bred to be intimidating, right, and when you're like, let's walk through downtown, la tends to have some struggles there.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. So let's get into the issues, now that these dogs experience. You had touched upon some of them. So what we've selected for is to protect the territory, protect the flock, guard things, without necessarily engaging in these huge battles, but they're going to put on an ominous presence or a show to protect what they're trying to protect. So what is the? Obviously we can start to foresee the issues in somebody's home and somebody that's getting a dog as a pet dog and is supposed to be, you know, laid back and just chilling out as a puppy. But then they get into social maturity and those ages. What are the common issues that we're going to face?
Speaker 2:So common issues with that. I did a little survey of just my own client load last year. I took in 107 livestock guardian dog clients and percentage-wise, 25% of the people came to me for stranger directed aggression, so that's really the biggest percentage and other people seeking help came for inter household aggression, reactivity, guarding and barking and the remaining kind of percentage was some fear and wandering, which is again a very typical thing about livestock guarding dogs needing adequate fencing and containment and everything like that. But yeah, those are usually what we see presenting the most, with people needing help with and it being unexpected for them and kind of coming up at social maturity.
Speaker 1:And what are some factors that are influencing this to happen? So we could say like oh, okay, we can just train this side of the dog, we just get them socialized early on enough. What are you seeing with the problems with that kind of mindset?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think you can train genetics out. I think that's the biggest takeaway from that. I think trying to train genetics out of a dog seems like a really frustrating exercise for the dog, the owner, the behavior consultant or the trainer or anything like that. So, truth be told, we can socialize them as young dogs, but they're still going to mature into who they're going to be. I usually change it from I don't need my livestock guardian dog, who is a pet, to be social with everybody. What I need them to do is understand what belongs and what doesn't, and that I am their partner. I'm going to help them determine that, and that's really the biggest thing that I try to work together for my clients and their dogs is helping them partner together. If we just let our adolescent livestock guardian dog choose what belongs and what doesn't, you may not be pleased with the results of those choices, right, and so my job is to say here's what belongs and here's what doesn't, and we can get into the specifics of how we do that and everything like that. But I really think that partnering with your dog is helpful and understanding their intrinsic motivation, right.
Speaker 2:I think that a lot of times when we see typical training solutions offered for these dogs, they end up in failure or at least limited success. So for them say, with reactivity and discomfort, with unfamiliar dogs approaching and things like that, a lot of traditional people are saying, hey, get your dog's attention, have them focus on you, let the thing passes. And when we've got a dog who they're not fearful of things, they're saying that thing doesn't belong here and I'd like to do something about it. That thing doesn't belong here and I'd like to do something about it. Also, you have to think if there's something that you're worried about and or thinking is a threat, asking our livestock guardian dog to look away from it is the hardest thing to do. So kind of switching for me and my clients.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, look at it, let's look at that thing. Yep, yes, I see that dog across the street and I see him. He is not a threat, my friend. He's going to be there every day. He is not a threat to us. Can we check him out? Can we keep moving along? And allowing them to process their environment is the most important thing and, I think, the thing that most clients come to me not having any experience with. So that's one of the things we try to do with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's got me thinking too about.
Speaker 1:You know, we talk about this now quite a bit in the dog training community. But you know, think just how mismatched teaching something like let's go to a group class and we'll teach you how to sit and we'll teach you how to heal, and like how that doesn't touch or really address any of the issues that most these guardians are going to face because of the environment and the genetics that are in play. And I love that you mentioned, like this sort of cooperative teamwork between the dog and the person. Because LGDs are so independent, right, and that's something we have to think about. It's almost like we have to give them guidance in their independence. Right, they're automatically independent, they're totally fine just being on their own versus some of the other breeds. So talk more about that, the independent nature of livestock guardians, how they're like totally happy being out and just laying out in the snow by themselves all night and not needing to go inside and be cuddling up next to the person. But how that factors into all of the training and behavior as well, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it's an interesting adjustment. If you're not used to it, I think if you come from having biddable dogs and dogs who I had a Springer Spaniel who, if I asked him to sit a hundred times, he would have yes, yes, ma'am, I love you Absolutely. I just want to make you happy. I have videos of I don't remember if you ever met Queen Margaret.
Speaker 1:I did, I did yeah.
Speaker 2:But me asking Queen Margaret to come inside, and my joke was always like if she had middle fingers she would have given them to me, and so she was independent. But of course I had to figure out what her motivations reliable and consistent, and not in a top-down sort of way, but in a partnership sort of way I've always looked at yes, I care for you, yes, I have to make a lot of the decisions here, but let's be partners in all of this. Let's come together and let me look at what you're seeing, trying to look at it through the eyes of your perception of reality and everything like that and help you make sense of it. So that's always been where I wanted to come from it with and how I coach my clients to come from it with, and I think you're right. Going back to the whole, I think everybody does the research right. One of the things we talked about was people think they do the research. I get emails no joke several times a week saying I'm your client. I thought I did the research and then I got this dog and, oh my goodness, it barks and doesn't listen to me and doesn't want to stay home and all of the stuff that we've kind of been talking about, and so I think it's important to realize like we can do all the research in the world, but it's unless you talk to somebody who is familiar with them.
Speaker 2:How a livestock guardian dog presents itself off property is very different than how they present themselves and how they act and live on their own property at home. And again, going back to that Queen Margaret example, when I ran Big Fluffy I would bring Queen Margaret everywhere and if you met her off property she was giant and beautiful, she was 135 pounds of loveliness, and off property she was tolerant of people and strangers and she was really well-adjusted and people thought, oh my gosh, they'd always be like I love her, this is what I want. She's placid, she's quiet, she's calm and peaceful and all of this stuff. And I was like, hey, listen, that's what she is here in this environment. If you come to my house, you will see she is on her own property. She will bark like nobody's business to let God knows who and what. Let them know that she is there and she is a threat to be taken seriously, right?
Speaker 2:And if you came into my house, we have guest protocols for all livestock guardian dogs. There are guest protocols for how they come in, because if not, margaret may say, oh, you're not going to come in, and that manifests as growling, posturing, pushing back and even low-level stuff, just kind of coming and standing in front of me. So my job was to say, hey, girl, I don't need you to do that, I've got this. Thanks so much. But she was a very different dog at home than she was out and about. So I think all these people see these dogs out and about and think, oh, that's what I want, I love that and it's really important to know what they're like on property.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to definitely dive into the details of the differences in how we might approach the training and behavior change strategies, but first I'm going to take a break to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. If you're interested in hearing more about applicable and immediate steps you can use with your own dog or in your cases, I have a subscription series called Help for Dogs with Aggression, which is an additional format to this podcast where I walk you through a variety of aggression issues, some of the topics already in the episode library that you would receive immediate access to include territorial aggression, emotions and aggression, dog-to-dog resource, guarding dogs that bite when being pet or handled, aggression on leash, and a bunch more. These are solo shows where I take you step-by-step on how to work with each of these types of aggression. You'll find a little subscribe button on Apple Podcasts where the bitey end of the dog is listed, or a link in the show notes to subscribe using Supercast. Your support of the show is very much appreciated and don't forget to join me for the fifth annual Aggression and Dogs conference, either in person or online from Scottsdale, arizona, from October 11th to 13th 2024. This year's lineup includes many incredible speakers, including Dr Clive Wynn, veronica Poutel and Gina Fares, sarah Rodriguez and Jess Arachi, emma Parsons, sarah Colnice, dr Kelly Moffitt, sam Freeman, dr Amy Cook and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts in dog body language to working with aggression and shelter environments, to genetic influences on behavior. Dr Amy Cook is also going to be bringing her entertaining and energetic personality to the grand reception and cocktail party, which, by the way, will be live streamed as well as in person, and, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online, and I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Elizabeth Ingalls and we've been chatting about Livestar Guardian Dogs and now we're going to get into sort of the details of training and the differences. So Elizabeth was talking about, you know, working off property, the difference between off property and on property, property and kind of a light bulb went off in my head was like, okay, maybe we should be working on some more of these foundational skills and these greetings and things off property because we're more likely to see the success and if that would transition to on property. But I want to hear about like you had this greeting ritual you mentioned like how to you know if somebody's coming over, uncle Bob's coming over, what are you going to do there? Like, do you just create a consistent routine? Do you use certain cues? So walk us through that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Sure. So shout out to Kim Brophy and her off-duty hack. That is what I've been using for probably a good 15 years now. Although the off-duty hack that she calls it sounds much nicer, I actually always refer to it as we don't eat our friends dogs. The freedom to practice the behaviors of rushing to the door and then again, with livestock guardian dogs, potentially deciding that that person shouldn't be there, increases the chances of just kind of some yucky stuff to happen. Right, depending on the dog, it could be anything from over-aroused behaviors that I don't want practiced. Right, depending on the dog, it could be anything from over-aroused behaviors that I don't want practiced right Barking and that sort of thing, all the way up to a dog with maladaptive guardian stuff biting, lunging, that sort of thing. And so my protocol is I teach my dog hey, go to your room. That's easy to put on cue. I like using a baby gate versus a crate, because I want them to have the opportunity to move around, not feel threatened, everything like that, and so they know to go to their room. My guest comes in. My dogs can bark, they can do whatever it is they need to or want to. I let my guest enter.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of social signaling going on, I think with livestock guardian dogs and even off property. If I've got one that's worried about things, I make sure me, as the human, that I'm showing affiliative signs to the stranger. Oftentimes I'm like, hey, I'm going to rub your shoulder. I want my dog to know I'm welcoming this person into my home. So, using social signaling, I welcome the person into my home. My livestock guardian dog, or any dog, is able to really observe that and what this does is again putting those predictable patterns in place so the dog knows what to expect. They're able to socially observe me. And for my clients again, my clients are reaching out to me because there's issues this allows my clients the ability to to breathe, to know that if they have a dog who's struggling, that nothing is going to happen. We're using an installed gate that's nice and tall, that the dog can't push down, that they know they can welcome somebody into their home and nobody's going to get hurt. The dog isn't going to rush anybody. The other thing I like to use this for is the fact that most people are not that fluent in these lower level signs of livestock guardian dogs guarding or being uncomfortable or anything like that by having them behind a gate the owner can observe the dog in a way that is safe and easy and really be able to judge them. Because it's in the past. A lot of what people would suggest is have the dog on a leash, meet them outside and that can work for some dogs not saying it doesn't work, but when that's happening the owner is behind the dog. It's hard to see as much body language when you're physically behind a dog and I can't tell you how many clients come to me using that method whose dog you know bit somebody or used you know an air snap or those sort of things because they weren't able to see the body language from behind. So this kind of mitigates all of that and over time it gets pretty easy.
Speaker 2:You've met my dog, phoenix, before. He was a tough dude as an adolescent and we use this process. He knows go to your room, I get a couple of barks, the person comes in. The process now is three minutes max. I keep it consistent. Still, I'm not worried about him meeting people. We've done a lot of work. I can gauge how he feels. The only people that I usually don't have him meet are some sort of workers, but he's very clear in his signaling of how comfortable he is and if he's uncomfortable, he's not coming out of that gated area to meet my guests. There's no need for him to have to make friends with the solar people who are trying to sell us solar panels. I don't need that, so he stays in there.
Speaker 1:I want to unpack this further a little bit because, typically in our stranger danger cases, right, we've got like our typical go-to strategies let's use food, let's use counter conditioning, let's use treat and retreat, let's use something where we're going to help this dog feel better about the stranger.
Speaker 1:But in the cases that we're talking about, we're looking at dogs that often aren't fearful of the strangers. They're just doing their job as a livestock, guardian dog, and so you're using sort of more of a process of social learning or social facilitation, where the dog's like okay, I see my guardian saying hello and saying this person's safe, and you sometimes don't even necessarily have to go to using food or anything else, it's just the dog needs to be communicated to that, hey, this is safe, this is good. I'm looking for direction here. Is this person safe or not, or do I need to sometimes make my own decision about if this person's safe or not? But yeah, so can you talk us through a little bit of the differences like that, because I know you've worked both types of cases in a high degree.
Speaker 1:So would you say that's pretty accurate. Social facilitation is really the game changer for livestock guardian dogs.
Speaker 2:I do think so, and that comes with relationship building and trust. I have to have a dog who trusts me and that sort of thing. But I think that because many of them aren't, I'm going to say traditionally food motivated, using kind of like the open bar, closed bar sort of thing, isn't always going to work for them because the food isn't motivating for them or they won't eat it. They're more concerned about the observation of that and ensuring that it is safe and that those people are welcome, and social facilitation between the human and the dog is the biggest thing I think that we can do for our livestock guardian dogs. And they are smart and they figure it out really quickly. They are looking for subtle cues that everybody's feeling good. The other thing let's think about like body language.
Speaker 2:Not only are livestock guardian dogs subtle signalers with their own body language, but we have bred them to be observant of others with their own body language. So it's not just that out in the field they're physically looking for a coyote or a wolf or whatever it is. They're keen observers of their flock and notice small signals of maybe feeling nervous or anxious. Right, they're going to notice that and then be like all right, what's going on, what's happening Right, when they're noticing their quote, unquote, flocks, signals. So in that case, if they're noticing that we're anxious and all of that stuff and I'm not blaming anybody or anything like that but they're going to notice how we feel Are we comfortable with this scenario? Are we feeling good about it? Are we saying like I've got this, I've got this. Yeah, grandma's allowed to be here. Yep, I know we're not used to her, but she's allowed to be here. I'm feeling good, I'm happy she's here. That's the biggest social signaling that we can give to them.
Speaker 1:Good, I'm happy she's here, that's the biggest social signaling that we can give to them. What do you do for clients that maybe are like and we've all gotten these clients and I don't blame them either. I think there's a reasonable request for a dog to actually guard the property but also be friendly to your friends.
Speaker 2:So you'd probably get those requests.
Speaker 1:I got a livestock guarding dog because I want them to bark at strangers and to protect the property.
Speaker 1:But, when Uncle Bob comes over? I want Uncle Bob to be able to come over safely. Do you find that's a realistic goal? And it certainly sounds more realistic, actually, for me, with dogs that are intuitively like we were just describing. They can catch the social signals, they can understand the communication. It doesn't have to be food-based or any particular type of training per se, but it's more the dog. We're just tapping into that dog's intuitive nature to determine who's safe or not. So what do you say to clients like that, where they're like, I want the guarding still to be there. I want my dog to protect me if somebody does break in. But what if they also want the friendliness side? Do you go back to the same kind of protocol?
Speaker 2:So usually yes, because I think that, like with everything, it depends on the dog. I think every dog kind of has variances in their tolerance of sociability, of strangers coming in and out of the house and everything like that. So I found some dogs are just not going to be tolerant of somebody just walking into the home, which is why we put these kind of protocols in place so they know what to expect. Other dogs who seem maybe a little more social and can be tolerant, again, we're putting specific protocols in place saying if this happens and this happens and this happens, this is okay. Meaning again, I'll go back to my own dogs. If you walk in a specific door in my house, that's the stranger door. If you walk in a different door in my house, that's the we know where you're coming from door. And if you come and even if I'm introducing somebody new and it's a pet sitter and we go through it several times of I'm home, they come in the door, we do all the things and a few different times the pet sitter will come on their own and we really introduce it of this door is okay, this door, they know strangers are coming in that door thing that we can do.
Speaker 2:But I also think setting realistic client expectations, saying that if you have a guardian breed who is adequately territorial aggression, we're going to see them. You're not going to have somebody walk in the backyard and I think being honest about that is really important. And again I'll go back to my own stuff. You're not going to walk in my backyard without my dogs having a really intense reaction and I think it's okay to accept that. It doesn't mean my dogs are going to maul anybody. I don't want to say that. But they're going to come running and they're going to come barking and the expectation of that is okay. I, as their owner, make sure that that gate doesn't have access to a stranger walking in so they're not bamboozled and all of that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:But I think setting realistic client expectations is good. I also think that every dog is an individual. So, kind of circling back around, I still think you have to set up predictable protocols for your dog. Even if you want Uncle Bob to come over, how is that going to happen? And is he coming over unattended? Is he coming over and we do our guest protocol? And if you really need a dog who's going to be welcoming to all people. I would suggest potentially adopting an older livestock guardian dog who has been in foster care and has shown themselves to be really comfortable with that. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot, right? If you get a puppy we don't know.
Speaker 1:Get a Cavalier Kingchild Spaniel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, you know, get a Springer Spaniel, right, Like my Spaniel would have been like, oh my God, hi, hi, hi. Mike, oh my goodness, hello, here's my treat jar. If you just want to get me one of those, we'd be happy, right. And so I think that I think setting those realistic expectations is really, really important. And we had talked to kind of about that whole gentle giant myth for livestock guardian dogs and, and so I think that there's this myth out there that these guys are oh, they're gentle giants, right, and we see these lovely videos of them just laying on the ground and baby goats are crawling all over them and it's really cute. I love that stuff too and in some ways they are gentle giants, unless they're not, or until they're not, they're gentle giants with what they consider belongs, and I think that's the biggest thing what belongs and what doesn't.
Speaker 2:And how do we teach our livestock guardian dog what does belong and what doesn't? And this goes even from familiar species, right, there's our inner circle of dogs that we live with. They belong, right, and usually a livestock herding dog is pretty tolerant of them. Or cats, right, we've got our cats at home. We are tolerant of that because they've been introduced in the what belongs arena but perhaps outside of that unfamiliar dogs don't belong and they're a threat to be dealt with. Unfamiliar cats don't belong and they're a threat to be dealt with. My own dog I fostered kittens. They belong, they're in the house We've introduced them. He's like, oh my hi kitty right Out and about. Those cats don't belong in his mind and he chases them. He's. You know he's never heard a cat or I would never let him or anything like that. But that really scares owners if they're not familiar with that.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting because everything you're talking about, for whatever reason, the algorithms on social media are feeding me a whole bunch of livestock guardian videos, and a lot of them are showing just how gentle these dogs are to like newborn you know animals on property, or children or kittens, and it's so interesting that there's again so intuitive about knowing who belongs and who doesn't.
Speaker 1:I love that you framed it that way. That's actually a really great way to put things and how they might perceive their world. So can we kind of lean towards like for maybe, people using livestock guardian dogs more as utility and what your experiences are there when they're getting these dogs as puppies? Are they doing much training in air quotes per se for the dogs with the human interactions, or or do they let the current livestock guardian dogs show them the ropes?
Speaker 2:Ooh, man, you're opening a can of worms there. If you want to get into an internet fight. You talk about how you should raise your livestock guardian dog as a working dog. So a lot of traditional methods in the past have been put the dog out there, their instinct is going to take over and everything like that, and with some dogs it does. A lot of people who use livestock guardian dogs as working dogs do really well when they have an appropriate an adult dog to. Again, that social signaling thing is huge right so to model their behavior after. But the most successful working dogs I see have adult livestock guardian dogs, if possible, to kind of model after, as well as human intervention and observation. Again, these dogs are still puppies, these dogs are still adolescents. They're often going to make poor choices. Adolescents at large make poor choices, whether you're a human or a dog or whatever right, and so they need humans to guide them and to prevent behaviors that we don't want to see more of.
Speaker 2:The whole hands-off approach thing that had been really really common for a while is starting to kind of shift, because people are understanding too that if you throw a dog in a field, right, and it never goes in a car. It never has to be on a leash, it has never been handled. And then anything happens. Life happens, the dog needs to be seen by a vet, a national emergency happens and we need to put it in the car, a big, huge freeze comes through and yes, they're big, yes, they're fluffy, they can tolerate all sorts of weather, but not all of it, and they need to come inside for the night.
Speaker 2:Some of these things have shown themselves to be very traumatic for these dogs, or the farm cells, right. This dog has never been handled by a human, has never even seen what a house is like, has never seen a leash, has never been a vet, and then they go into rescue and it absolutely rocks their world. So I think we're not doing livestock guarding working dogs any favors if at least we don't introduce them to a little bit of handling, a little bit of car stuff, a little bit of leash work. I don't need them to like walk in a heel, right, but I want them to know sometimes I might put a leash on you, it is not the end of the world for you. And so we're seeing a shift in that and I think that's really, really helpful and important and makes for dogs that have more resiliency.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love everything you're saying there, because it also kind of brings me to my next question, which is you know, we talk about all the time meeting dogs' needs and what they've been selected for. Now let's say somebody goes out and gets that gentle giant that they want, what are things they can do to meet those needs? Because you know, with like dogs that like to sniff, we can get like a beagle, allow them the opportunity to sniff. Or we've got a retriever, we've got you know things to objects to retrieve. But what do we do for a livestock guarding dog? We can't just be like, okay, go guard, satisfy your needs, go guard the property.
Speaker 2:What do you suggest for pet guardian type of environments? The distance, but just the ability to not have your property be the only thing they have, because oftentimes then they become much more protective of it and everything like that. And so I want to say like, hey, go get off property, go somewhere that is not super popular and get a long line, let them do their thing. I call them hangouts. Go and hang out. Let your dog just hang out and observe the world, and that is often the most enriching thing that we can do for them. Hang out, eat some snacks. All of my own personal dogs have always loved that, and that has been game changing for my clients to realize we don't have to walk three miles a day. I don't need you to walk at a perfect heel, let's just go here, let's sniff around, let's be present, let's observe the world. This can also be helpful with normalizing the environment too, saying oh yeah, see, all the stuff we see at home is out here too and it's not that bad right, they're not a threat. Kids on bikes or other dogs and all of that stuff. So this kind of helps with that Small little things I found to help for dogs who do like to guard sounds weird a bird feeder. So many of my own dogs and many client dogs have decided bird feeders are cool. They like the birds. They don't really chase them. Also they're not really gonna get them because those tiny little birds are super fast. But I have multiple pictures of my client dogs hanging out near a bird feeder and then barking at you know any hawk or squirrel who may dare come and either threaten their birds or threaten their birds food for the squirrels and most of them they get enormous satisfaction from that. So there's small little things that we can kind of do to meet those guarding needs and everything like that. The other thing is the barking thing. Right, I think I'm never going to train a livestock guardian dog not to bark. That's not fair for the dog, but I also don't want my neighbor to hate me, so helping this dog normalize the environment of what is a threat to bark at, what should I be barking at and what is normal here For my own dog? I can't have him barking at.
Speaker 2:We live in a relatively busy suburban area. We have a big fence yard. It's against a field, so we don't have a lot of stuff happening back there, but I have a lot of foot traffic and things like that, and so for him we worked on, you know, checking life out, realizing the oil man wasn't a threat, and we did pair that with food right, it usually was. I look at the thing, maybe I get a snack. Everything feels cool.
Speaker 2:And I told my dog, every time that this black cat came and peed on my hydrangeas I was like, oh, there's the bad kitty, and he'd be like bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. And so that's his job. Now he protects my hydrangeas from getting peed on by the black cat in our neighborhood who, again, I would never let him hurt this cat. He is behind a fence or in the house or whatever, but he takes that job really seriously. I want to give him an outlet to say, yeah, nice work, my friend, thank you for keeping those safe. So I think there's ways to give our dogs affordances in some creative ways that maybe most people don't think of.
Speaker 1:And we've talked a lot about the different characteristics and really just how different livestock guarding dogs can be from a lot of the other types of or breeds we work with. But if you had like one take home message in terms of the secret to getting into a livestock guardian dog's brain, in terms of training, let's say, for instance, good examples. You know, a joke we make is like how do you get a livestock guardian dog to recall right?
Speaker 1:They're one of the dogs that I've worked with that are much less apt to decide if they want to come when called you know, and so if you had to like, start looking at, all right, what am I going to do to motivate most livestock guardian dogs and get them to start working with you and get that team building going on? What would that look like? What would it be for you?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. Let's see. I'm going to say, actually I think it's using my asks wisely. I'm not going to ask my livestock guardian dog to do a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter if that makes sense. And so I'm going to be wise about what I ask them to do and reinforce it in a way that feels reinforcing to them right. I think you can build, you know, the desirable food drive. Again, you're not getting a spaniel or anybody else like that, but my guys can do some hiking, but we have worked hard on it and it has taken years to get there. So you know, we kind of practice a lot of things.
Speaker 2:Long lines are your best friend and, for recall, with livestock guardian dogs and some of them may, you may never drop that long line, depending on the dog, right. But I think that too often we ask our dogs for arbitrary things. And with Livestock Guardian dogs I want to say here's what I'm asking. I'm really consistent in it. I'm going to pay you in whatever way that you deem worthwhile, and it's not going to be all the time, it's not going to be just for the heck of it. I'm not just asking for a sit for every single thing. So I think that for me it's using what I ask of my dogs pretty wisely so that I do get cooperation, not compliance cooperation.
Speaker 1:So Brilliant way to wrap up the episode. But I do want to give listeners a chance to figure out where can they find more about you and what are you up to next.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so you can check out my website, which is elizabethinglescom. I run a training group on Facebook. I want to say we have like almost 10,000 people, if I remember it's called Great Pyrenees Training. That Works, lena helps me with it and we offer free advice. So I'm hoping to be offering some group online livestock guardian training and maybe I want to say living with livestock guardians versus training livestock guardians. So I do that. I also offer I've been doing a lot of trainer to trainer consults lately, which I think have been helpful for any trainers who aren't familiar with livestock guardian dogs. They want to chat about breed traits and case studies and things like that. Again, I could talk about this stuff all day long. So I've been doing a lot of that and mostly you can find me online. Come and find me on my website, shoot me an email. But mostly I'm working with helping people live with their livestock guardian dogs and not fight their nature but work with it and understand them better.
Speaker 1:Excellent, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a really great pleasure to talk to you and I hope to see you again in the future.
Speaker 2:All right. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm really happy we were able to do an episode on livestock guardian dogs and focus on their unique needs and considerations before bringing one home. Elizabeth truly has a passion for these big, fluffy dogs and I'm excited to hear more from her in the future. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, From the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression and dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening and, as always, stay well, my friends. You.