Episode 225: Create Your Dream Home with Melissa Kennedy and Jen Hinesman

Looking to build your dream home? In this episode, Melissa Kennedy, President of Meadowlark Design+Build, and Design Director, Jen Hinesman discuss the process of building a custom home designed specifically for you. Using their 20 years of experience, Melissa and Jen explain all the important steps like planning, budgeting, choosing a location, and making sustainable choices.

Listen and Learn:

• The importance of financial planning and budgeting for your dream home
• How to select the right property site
• Strategies for making sustainable, eco-friendly choices in home construction
• How to deal with challenges like weather delays and labor shortages

 Resources:

• Check out Meadowlark Design+Build Services 
• Visit the Meadowlark Custom Home Design Gallery 
• Follow Meadowlark on Instagram
• Follow Meadowlark on Facebook
• Listen to Episode 174: Exploring Investment Assumptions: Real Estate vs. Stock & Bond Investing
• 6 Steps of the Custom Home Building Process

Links are being provided for information purposes only. The information herein is general and educational in nature and should not be considered legal or tax advice. Tax laws and regulations are complex and subject to change, which can materially impact investment results. Pearl Planning cannot guarantee that the information herein is accurate, complete, or timely. Pearl Planning makes no warranties with regard to such information or results obtained by its use and disclaims any liability arising out of your use of, or any tax position taken in reliance on, such information. Consult an attorney or tax professional regarding your specific situation. Please note, changes in tax laws or regulations may occur at any time and could substantially impact your situation. Pearl Planning financial advisors do not render advice on tax matters. You should discuss any tax matters with the appropriate professional.

Transcript

Melissa Joy: 0:01

Welcome to the Women's Money Wisdom Podcast. I'm Melissa Joy, a certified financial planner and the founder of Pearl Planning. My goal is to help you streamline and organize your finances, navigate big money decisions with confidence and be strategic in order to grow your wealth. As a woman, you work hard for your money and I'm here to help you make the most of it. Now let's get into the show.

Melissa Joy: 0:37

One of the questions I get so often from clients is how do I build my own dream house? I want to do this. This is on our list. We don't always get to win, but I wanted to devote this episode to talking about building your dream home, and I brought in a team of experts, because that's not an area, as you'll hear in the conversation, that I have as much expertise in, so I'm going to be learning a lot in this episode too. I am thrilled to be joined by two members Metal Art, Design and Build. Melissa Kennedy is President and Entrepreneur Operating System Integrator and Jen Hinesman is design director both at Metal Ark, Design and Build. Ladies, welcome to the podcast.

Jen Hinesman: 1:10

Thank you, good to be here.

Melissa Joy: 1:13

You just spoke last and just introduce us. We're talking about this huge topic to me at least, you know very complex building your dream home. Tell me a little bit. When somebody you know calls you out of the blue and says, hey, we're building a house, we want to talk to metal art, we're talking to other people, where may they be at in that project and who are they going to end up talking to?

Melissa Kennedy : 1:34

Melissa, it's so fun to talk to people about building their dream home. We really really believe that beautiful spaces impact lives and so many of our clients have careers where they are really impacting the world in such positive ways, and so it feels like a gift to be in this field, to be able to design these homes for people, and so when they call, it's really an exciting part of the initial phase because we do feel like we've been at this Metalworks 20 years old this year and we've been at this working with homeowners to figure out how to build a custom home for you know, 20 years now and it's just incredibly. It's an incredibly challenging process, but it's also wonderful when you work with the right homeowner to help them achieve their goal in or email in, you know, on weekends, at evenings, whenever busy people have time to send emails to inquire about, you know, these side projects that just take up so much time but are really exciting to tackle. So we get homeowners who are moving here. You know so frequently now post-COVID, people are moving here from larger cities and out of state and wanting to be closer to family or move back to the town they grew up in or went to college here. So some people call in just looking for land and they said we saw your pictures on Instagram and we want to build a home. And some of that's after doing sort of research on what homes are available and not really seeing what they want.

Melissa Kennedy : 2:58

Other people call us when they have plans.

Melissa Kennedy : 3:00

They've worked with an architect before, or even an interior designer, or they've even drawn something themselves and they have this idea and they put it on paper, but now they want to both find land and work with a builder who can help them bring it to fruition.

Melissa Kennedy : 3:15

Other people call us like right when they bought the land and they're interested in building, and so we like to help people talk through the process, from wherever they've started at to how we can get something built, and a design build company operates a bit differently than an architect and a builder.

Melissa Kennedy : 3:33

We really do work with our in-house design team to get clients' ideas into real physical built space where their family is, you know, hosting a holiday party at, and so it's just a little bit different thinking where our front end design team really works with clients to think through the cost and the timeline and when they can put even their current house up for sale so that they can, you know, move, get ready to move into their home. What sort of contingency is there? How does their family live during this season where they're building the custom home? Because there's a lot more involved than just building the home to having a homeowner build the home. And so whenever people call us, we like to try to keep it as simple as possible but really figure out how they need us in the relationship and who we can connect them with.

Melissa Joy: 4:21

That reminds me so much of really financial planning done right, where you can take a really complex either idea or goal or dream and break it down in a way that makes it achievable, and I understand that, for example, with a retirement. But I have, I've already said, no clue when it comes to the build of the house. Now, melissa, you just said the design team is where you start and, jen, that's you right, that is so. Tell me, when somebody has their first meeting with you, what are they bringing to the table? What are you asking? Where do you guys start?

Jen Hinesman: 4:53

Oh, you know, we are really relationship based right Residential design and build. And so asking them questions again, just meeting them where they are. Are they coming to town? Are they familiar with the area? How long have they been looking for land? Do they have?

Melissa Joy: 5:08

And I should say we're in Western Washtenaw County or Ann Arbor, michigan. That's right, it's your home base. I'm sitting in Dexter.

Jen Hinesman: 5:17

That's right. That's right, absolutely. So. I have, you know, a recent homeowner. I'll sort of like a case study. A recent homeowner called in. She was looking for a piece of property that actually she wanted to, you know, build like kind of like a compound with her mother. And so before she even purchased the land, she contacted us. We kind of discussed a couple of different parcels, kind of pros and cons of each like a high level right, and then we actually she came in and met us, met the team, kind of talked through oh sort of those bigger, higher level ideas, goals for the project. She wanted an art studio, wanted a space where you can connect with the land. So those are really important. What we did, even before we started the design process, was looked at the land well, in septic municipalities, all of those kind of nuts and bolts, not so exciting but super necessary. Pieces of the research, components of the research.

Melissa Joy: 6:09

So you guys are looking at the land, you're listening to what your prospective client is telling you At this point. Is a real estate professional involved, a real estate agent or someone like that?

Jen Hinesman: 6:20

That's a great question. Yep, sometimes there is a real estate professional involved. We certainly do involve anybody who's on the team. We definitely wanna have a conversation I think it's really open and honest communication with all of the team members or anybody who's involved in the process. Real estate agents certainly are very gosh great collaborators in terms of looking at different pieces of property, understanding any of like there's. Sometimes there's like strange little clauses, especially it's adjacent to farmland and this person owns five acres. It's just, you know, sometimes there's some kind of wacky things, so super important to have that person involved, of course.

Melissa Joy: 6:59

Who else might be involved. At that point I'm thinking. I go straight to the numbers. So I'm thinking a banker, maybe, or the financial advisor who's like okay, most projects, I would assume, have budgets.

Jen Hinesman: 7:13

Every project has a budget, absolutely, and I would even think the financial advisor oftentimes is the person the first stop, right Before, even like I think you had mentioned cultivating that dream, planning for that dream, much like retirement, planning for that custom home dream and how to make it reality. So, definitely, financial advisor for sure. Banking partners absolutely Always advocate for a partner who is open again to the conversation. Every homeowner has different, like a different, financial landscape. I would call it maybe right and so being able to have those conversations with local bankers, I think that's kind of an important component. I think local bankers do understand this kind of unique, unique area that we live in in Ann Arbor and the surrounding areas.

Melissa Joy: 8:01

Yeah, it's hard to go and call a big bank. You know a few states away and try to explain that right. You know what type of appraiser you need, for example, or you know what the comps are, things like that. Because I'm assuming with custom builds it's more difficult when you are appraising to get those comparables because you're building something that hopefully is unique and hasn't been done before.

Jen Hinesman: 8:25

Yeah, you're right, it is trickier.

Melissa Joy: 8:27

Well, let's talk about the design phase. I want to hear so initially, you know, there may or may not be land, there may or may not be plans, things like that. What do you need before you start to dig and put the walls up, things like that? What's going to happen before then?

Jen Hinesman: 8:48

That's right. So it is a custom home. We do build custom homes that really are unique to our homeowners and what they need. I think Melissa did mention that space does matter. So we really want to understand the homeowner, understand the homeowner's needs now and then maybe in the future, as well as their family or their lifestyle changes. Families grow, lifestyles change, right, and so again, just sort of getting to understand the homeowner. Also understanding the land, the piece of property and how the home relates to the site. So understanding again the municipalities, the setbacks, all the requirements if it is in town, understanding connections to sewer and water if it's a little further out, maybe well and septic.

Jen Hinesman: 9:30

Those are kind of like the nuts and bolts components before we can start dreaming.

Jen Hinesman: 9:34

So we get to know the homeowner, we get to know the land and then we dive into conceptual design, so usually creating a couple different concepts, again kind of higher level, almost like sketchy in a way, to help the homeowner understand how their house will look and feel when they pull up the driveway.

Jen Hinesman: 9:53

You know we want their heart to pitter patter, right, we want them to be excited when they drive up the driveway.

Jen Hinesman: 9:57

This is their home, this is where they're creating memories where they're celebrating holidays, so definitely want them to understand gosh, how it looks and feels. And then we move into the interior how you know the different components, how it fosters conversation in the kitchen, how their kids are going to lay out their you know homework assignments and draw on the poster boards of the island while they're cooking dinner or when they're having large family gatherings, thanksgiving meals and that sort of thing. We also look, again zooming out, at site placement, so thinking about how the sun will rise and how you'll feel the sun and how it will set and what that feels like on the interior spaces too. And then also sustainability. We want to build a house that is awesome, that again gets your heart racing, but then also is going to stand the test of time. So talking about green features and benefits and how that really can, it's not just a nice to have, but really how your house is going to feel and perform now and again into the future as well.

Melissa Kennedy : 10:59

I wanted to interject really quick as Jen's talking. You know I keep thinking about. It is people's dream home and doing this type of a project is a dream, and I think it's really important to remind people that no dream can be achieved while're hands off, and so people knowing what a time commitment is required of them as homeowners to pursue this dream. It really is relational, which means we need homeowners to engage and needs and spending time to really think it through will make them feel very confident in the construction process of all the decisions that were made up front. So the time commitment, along with the financial commitment, is just a really big and important piece for people to consider before they step into making this dream a reality.

Melissa Joy: 11:48

Well, that brought me to a conversation I had with a client last week who is doing a custom build, almost full tear down, in a city on the east side of Detroit and she's about nine months in and she was like, if I have to make one more decision about you know, I don't know. Yeah, the decision fatigue is real, but that is so true. You can't just be like, hey, I have this dream, let's, you know, drop it into the room and then I'm going to walk away and come back in six to 12 months with, you know, my vision becoming reality. You really need to both know the time you're going to need to invest as well. You know that this is not light touch project. You really need to be invested or otherwise. You know it's okay if that's not a good fit.

Melissa Joy: 12:35

There's so many situations in real estate where people come with a desire and I say okay, and this is not a raining on parade situation, this is an understand what you're getting yourself into situation. Do you know you may be carrying two mortgages? Do you understand that these types of projects don't happen in six months? Things like that, setting the table with realistic expectations up front is so big in terms of satisfaction with the project.

Melissa Kennedy : 13:04

Yeah it is, and I think those are. You know, it's the time, it's the budget, it's even knowing who you're collaborating with. Sometimes it's, like Jen said, it's a mother and daughter situation, sometimes it's a couple situation, sometimes it's a single female situation. So just knowing who are all the people you even want at that table or have at that table to be making decisions with and I think the more we said open and honest you can be about who's there your financial planner, your spouse? You know, maybe it's your mom in certain situations and making sure that you understand what those voices are and who is the decision maker. All too often it's happened before and now we really try to help people prepare for this is that somebody who is a decision maker comes to the table late and then it's really frustrating for our, our homeowners or our clients to try to navigate those conversations again with somebody who's maybe has a louder voice than what they were thinking.

Melissa Joy: 13:59

So even understanding who the players are is really important piece and and hopefully you have the flexibility to decide, because there can often be in situations especially I'm thinking right for single women people that want to step in and kind of take control and that might, may or may not be appropriate. So, making sure you have the right kind of players that can be additive and not make things more difficult. Yeah so, jen, in this design phase, so you're bringing your sketching, you have you're both doing that concrete, like hey, we need to have a way to have utilities connected to the outside world, etc. Water is nice. It's nice to have water.

Jen Hinesman: 14:40

Exactly.

Melissa Joy: 14:41

Also the dreams there's been have the clients contracted with you for this phase, that design phase, as an initial phase, where everybody knows what you're being paid, the economics of it? I can't help myself trying to understand the dollars and cents, Of course.

Jen Hinesman: 15:00

Yeah, of course it's super important. You mentioned every homeowner has a budget, it's absolutely true. So what we try to work through, the designs inform the level of investment and the level of investment informs the design. There are two phases of design for us conceptual design, again, making sure we're on the same page, it's a working, a long-term relationship, right? So we want to make sure that the homeowner is excited about the ideas, that it's a trusting relationship. And then also, number three is that it's the right level of investment in ranges, right? So we're still conceptual, but we always are talking about that level of investment to make sure we are speaking the same language, are on the same page in terms of you know that, build cost.

Melissa Joy: 15:42

And so in that phase they know what they're paying you to design the concepts, or else it's, you know, like I'm assuming, that in some cases you could think you're working for a certain number of hours, and then there's multipliers based on.

Jen Hinesman: 15:58

Yes, that we could draw until our hands fall off. We love it so much for sure. The first phase of design as I mentioned, conceptual design is a fixed cost for design services. It's really like a feasibility study. I think all the components you're just talking about, I think all the components you're just talking about certainly you know the beautiful aspects again, getting that heart racing all of the interior features, some finishes, mood boards, but also timeline, I think Melissa well, I have two Melissa's, but Melissa Kennedy mentioned you know that timeline right in terms of how long the build will take.

Jen Hinesman: 16:28

We also talk about how long the second phase of design, which is detailed planning, how long that takes. It's very hands on. If you think about a funnel, we start really wide at the top of the funnel with conceptual design and we continue to move down the funnel to the bottom of the funnel. That's where we go into construction. So we're working through designs, we're working through levels of investment getting more and more granular with each. So then when we go into construction we have a really well thought out, considered floor plan, but also financial plan and timeline plan as well.

Melissa Joy: 17:02

So that second phase, I'm assuming, is where you start to talk more about what realistically to expect in terms of what the market's giving you for costs, both in materials, labor.

Jen Hinesman: 17:15

That's correct.

Melissa Joy: 17:16

Whatever else you need to invest in.

Jen Hinesman: 17:18

That's correct. Yeah, absolutely Get more and more granular again, working towards permit drawings and construction documents, but on the flip side, also talking about, as you just mentioned, that level of investment, really talking about the site work and excavation costs, square footages, all of that right, not just going from we need X amount of lighting fixtures moving to okay, we need that specific lighting fixture.

Melissa Joy: 17:40

And at what point in time is the okay? This is assuming. I mean, I'm sure you love clients who just walk in and say money's no object, I've just got cash in the bank ready to write checks. But in most cases A the people involved are probably living somewhere else. If we're starting from the ground up and then also may or may not have the luxury of just being able to fully, finance with their checkbook. So at what point in time does a lender or bank become involved? Who will help to finance the project?

Jen Hinesman: 18:12

That's a great question. We need enough information for the bank to understand the level of finish, the components, square footage, number of bedrooms, bathrooms, even fireplaces and outdoor spaces. Understanding all of those components, but not too far along where we feel like we're so locked in that we can't make changes should we need to after the appraisal comes back.

Melissa Joy: 18:34

Perfect, and it's that lender saying, hey, hopefully in most cases it's like this looks good, we're good. But I'm assuming in some cases they may have pause and say I don't know, you know like they know the market too. When they're saying, you know, we need to make sure that this would appraise correctly, or assuming that you need a loan at the end.

Jen Hinesman: 18:55

I think, absolutely. I think it's a little bit tricky in terms of custom homes because there's nothing built yet, right, and so we're looking at comps in the area of homes that are already built. So it's not necessarily apples to apples, because we are using newer technologies now than a house that was built, you know, maybe 10 years ago, right. So it's a little bit tricky, but we have really worked hard to kind of cultivate and foster relationships with different bankers in town and in the area. I think it's really important for homeowners to pick a lender that understands what they're trying to achieve with their custom home. That way the appraiser has a better shot of also giving you that value. They understand the components and, again, what you're trying to achieve.

Melissa Joy: 19:40

Yeah, so I'm assuming you're asking people about construction loans like how many have you been doing and is the bank able to be successful in those things like that?

Jen Hinesman: 19:53

Yes, absolutely Work hand in hand with homeowners and banks as well. Definitely, it's definitely a team sport.

Melissa Kennedy : 19:58

I was going to say. It's not uncommon that while we're designing, we're actually pulling comps for the homeowners to show, like, where the value is, because different people also have different amounts of cash they're willing to put in, knowing where the market is going to go if they're going to stay in their home for 10 to 20 years. So there is I mean, I think that's interesting for people to think about is is what does the builder provide as far as supporting homeowners to get the resources they need to build the project? And we're quite heavy handed in it.

Melissa Joy: 20:27

That makes a lot of sense. So, this design phase, how long can it go? I'm sure that every project is different, but what are we talking here?

Jen Hinesman: 20:35

Every project is different, really and truly, I would say maybe an average. Give yourself six to eight months in detailed planning. People are busy, Our homeowners are busy and if this is your dream home, I mean, give yourself a little bit of space and time to be able to think about decisions and not be under the gun right Perfect. I think it'll just give the best results in the end.

Melissa Joy: 20:56

So then all the stars have aligned. We're sitting in Michigan, so I'm assuming you also need the weather to align. There are certain months that you may not be starting, you know, to dig, but when you get to that point, what should someone expect after the design phase?

Jen Hinesman: 21:13

Maybe Melissa should field this question.

Melissa Kennedy : 21:15

I'm happy to talk about this. Yeah, after the design phase, when all the decisions are made, there's about a month to two months of some quiet time where we're working on permitting, getting everybody aligned to start construction. And yes, we live in Michigan so it's questionable what the right season is to build Spring is rainy and unpredictable, fall is rainy and unpredictable, winter is icy, it's snowy and summer can be like relentlessly warm. So we just like to start whenever it can start. Whenever we get permitting through and bank loans have closed and we have the drawings done, we like to start construction and we are constantly working around the weather. So building a custom home is quite different than like a neighborhood development, where they're very similar and it's not so custom and all the trades can just like truck along through.

Melissa Kennedy : 22:05

A neighborhood Custom home means it's very unique. It's one on the site, there's not multiple, and so after this period of downtime we start excavation and that can be a bit unpredictable and actually then foundations and then framing and once the house is weather tight, that's when the process gets more predictable. So we work really hard to get the site work done the foundations, build the exterior walls, get the windows in, get the roof in and now the rough trades can start to do the work. And that's when homeowners' time also becomes more important to be available. We do weekly walkthroughs with our homeowners, make sure everything's going in the right ways before the drywall gets on, because it's a lot easier to change things before drywall gets on than after drywall gets on the house.

Melissa Kennedy : 22:53

But you can expect a custom home build to be anywhere from 15 to 20 months or beyond that, depending on complexity. You know we have a lot of homes that there are several homes right now that are looking for no gas utilities and so there's a lot of coordination with solar and batteries and making sure the insulation and the framing all work together to have a really tight envelope. And a lot of those decisions are made in the design phase so we can do a better job of predicting for our homeowners what the schedule for construction might be. And for construction schedules we really work more towards milestones. It's like what are we doing this quarter? Where will we be? Because it's really unpredictable week to week what's happening. But if we focus on quarterly milestones we can usually get there with a strategic way and keep homeowners aware of what the goal is for the project.

Melissa Joy: 23:45

Well, I can see, with someone who specializes in EOS, that quarterly milestones would be a natural fit. Of every 90 days counts, your 90 day rocks. When you say 15 to 20 months, is that during the construction phase, or does that include the design phase?

Melissa Kennedy : 24:02

It does not include the design phase, that's just the construction phase. It's shockingly long, and I think one of the things that we've really been aware of in the Midwest is there is not a lot of skilled trades labor, and so something we do work with our trades on and cultivating awareness of is there are not many trades that are just we can fill in on a job because the level of expertise it's just so weak in the very professional area where we need our craftsmen to operate in our custom houses in order to get the details executed that we've designed. And so just a reminder that building a custom home is not Amazon you can't buy it and it appears that your mailbox. It really does take time because there are physical hands doing all of the work that's involved in building a custom home. So all the more important to decide those decisions up front, so when the skilled laborers are pure on the job and have the time dedicated to do so, they can really work to execute instead of figuring out what they're supposed to be doing.

Melissa Joy: 25:07

Well, I've had that discussion often with clients that are speculating on the kind of future of real estate market. In Michigan in particular, when we had the Great Recession in the mid-2000s and our economy was so tied to manufacturing industry, we really lost 15 years of building construction. You know, much more depressed home starts than the rest of the country and with that loss comes the loss of those skilled laborers, just like you're saying, which can make a project in Michigan more expensive than it might be in a different part of the country. So that's something that people need to be aware of. But it's also why people are driven to wanting to build their own custom homes, because when you look around the market and you look at perhaps dated, you know kind of inventory in homes that weren't built the way that people prefer nowadays. You know it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy when people have the luxury of a choice.

Melissa Kennedy : 26:06

Yeah, it absolutely is, and this company was founded by Doug Selby and Kirk Brandon, and they really believe in leaving a positive impact on the world, on the planet and on the community. And so building with integrity is one of those motivators to making sure that we leave as clean of a footprint as we can on the earth. And so, yes, then it means hiring the right people, having the right traits involved, who really do care about their craft, in which, yes, it does take time.

Melissa Joy: 26:37

It's a labor of love and not a labor of speed well, melissa, I'll allow you to give a little bit of a plug for metal art, but talk to me as people are deciding. You know, if they, if they're listening to this episode and saying this, I want to be in that room. When I see where is the sun rising and setting on the house, I'm thinking this is what I need in my life. Talk to me a little bit about metalwork. But people listen from all over the country and, in fact, all over the world.

Melissa Joy: 27:04

So, if you're interviewing a design and build team, what should you be asking for? What should you be looking for? And tell me what you guys, what you think, makes you different?

Melissa Kennedy : 27:14

I think, when you think about a relationship, I think it's really interesting for homeowners to think about when they've successfully collaborated on a project, what kind of team has that been with? And homeowners are 50% of the responsibility, right, there's the homeowners, there's the builder, and then we actually say there's the house too, that the house kind of speaks for itself. But when you're thinking about who you want to be involved with for this dream, who's going to help you realize your dream, what does a successful collaboration look like? And so for METALARC, we have project managers on staff. We have a full design team on staff, so we really do like to take the reins and sit in the driver's seat.

Melissa Kennedy : 27:50

Homeowners are always in the car, as are our trades professionals and the bankers and the financial planners, but Metalwork really likes to drive the seat. We like to work towards deadlines. We like to get things into action and get homes built. There's a lot of homeowners who are wonderful in their own world of project managing and want to be a project manager on a project, and so if you want to be that sort of resource between an architect and a builder, then maybe you should look at finding a general contractor who can build your house for you. That keeps you a little bit more involved in coordination with the designer or architect you've hired and the builder and doing a little bit more project management. I think there's multiple ways to work with a company. It's just more thinking about what do you want out of this process, who do you want to guide it, who do you want in the driver's seat, and what kind of relationship are you looking for out of it? Is it one where you're more hands-off or are you more invested in having that dream come true?

Melissa Joy: 28:51

Well, and I'm sure it matters that you communicate up front your expectations as a client, as well as you know how best to effectively communicate, both getting that information from a team like yours, melissa and Jen, as well as you know sharing how it's best for you to communicate, whether if it's a married couple, like hey, here's who the project manager for our family is going to be or please make sure you communicate with both of us, even though we can expect a call back from you, know him or her, things like that.

Melissa Kennedy : 29:21

Yeah, and you bring up a good point. I mean, we work with homeowners of all different types of personalities and so, with Jen and her lead design team, they figure out who's going to be the best lead designer for this client to write personality fit In construction. We figure out which is the best project manager to meet with this homeowner, what type of project is it, and then who's the best project manager to help see that project through. Because the team really does matter. And the communication when you're building something and when you're going from something that's completely intangible on paper to a physical space that you occupy, communication and clarity on it is so important and can be so challenging, and so trying to make sure that communication lines up to really helps determine the success of the project really helps determine the success of the project.

Melissa Joy: 30:14

Well is there. I'm going to leave space for each of you to, kind of, you know, give your last best piece of wisdom when it comes to this topic. But also, first of all, melissa, how can people find MetalArk? We'll make sure to include details and show notes.

Melissa Kennedy : 30:26

Yeah, so MetalArk is a design build company in Ann Arbor. We're on Instagram and we're also on Facebook and then MetalArk Design Build. You can find us on our website too, If you Google us. We pop up quickly, at least with right now, the way the algorithms are working. And you can fill out a form on our website.

Melissa Joy: 30:45

Well, I'll start with you, melissa. What is the kind of last piece of wisdom you would leave for people as they're considering, designing and building their dream?

Melissa Kennedy : 30:53

home. There's an interesting quote that I'm just going to paraphrase, that I think about a lot. I think designing and building is very relevant to this. It's about the journey and not the destination, and so, while it can be so much laborious decision making and so much collaborating and very much indeed, one of the biggest investments people will ever make in their life finding fun and enjoying the process of bringing these ideas all the way to a physical space that you enjoy with your family or your cup of coffee in the sunshine in the morning. Finding a way to enjoy the process really makes it a heart experience and not just a head experience, and that's what I would encourage.

Melissa Joy: 31:40

I love that. Well, what about you, jen? You do so much to help bring a vision, or just a collection of ideas, into something that's on paper and able to be buildable. What would you tell those people?

Jen Hinesman: 31:53

I think, much like Melissa, I would say the relationships really matter. This is a long term relationship and just keeping an open, honest line of communication and I think, yeah, along with the open, honest communication, just be ready to collaborate. I think that's when, like the synergy, happens, one plus one definitely equals three, when we're collaborating in the design studio.

Melissa Joy: 32:16

I love that Bringing our own ideas to the table, but be open to seeing other people's ideas and kind of being able to help them. Well, ladies, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and I bet we're going to have other episodes from you because, just full disclosure, you're doing a remodel for me and we can talk about remodeling next, where you start with something that already has evolved but do something to improve it.

Melissa Kennedy : 32:41

Thanks, melissa, thank you.

Melissa Joy: 32:55

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