Recipe for Greatness
Recipe for Greatness
The Cheese Geek: Cheese Business Mastery with Edward Hancock
Ever wondered how a finance guru can transform into a cheese industry innovator? Edward Hancock, the founder of The Cheese Geek, joins us to unravel his captivating journey from fund management to pioneering a unique cheese retailing experience. Discover how Edward's expertise in investor psychology and algorithm building became the secret sauce in creating a brand that emotionally connects with its customers, and get a peek into the neuroscience that drives our most delicious impulse purchases.
But great ideas alone don't build successful businesses—execution does. Edward opens up about launching The Cheese Geek while juggling a full-time job, starting with minimal resources, and growing organically through the sheer power of word-of-mouth. Learn the invaluable lessons he garnered from the trenches, turning first-time buyers into passionate brand advocates and proving that actionable steps and loyal customer relationships are the true cornerstones of enduring success.
In the final segments, we dive deep into the art of crafting memorable customer experiences and strategic growth. Hear how The Cheese Geek transitioned smoothly into retail with Sainsbury's, all while maintaining a consistent brand identity. Edward shares the challenges of sourcing cheese, the importance of being prepared for opportunities, and the problem-solving mindset that helped navigate the pandemic. Tune in for an episode packed with actionable insights, whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a devoted food enthusiast.
3, 2, 1, 0, and liftoff, liftoff.
Jay Greenwood:Well, hello there. Welcome to another episode of the Recipe for Greatness podcast. I'm your host, jay Greenwood, and in this podcast we interview the founders behind some of the best food and drink brands and hospitality brands in the UK. Today we're joined with Edward Hancock, the founder of the Cheese Geek, a pioneering company that's redefining how we enjoy artisan cheese. With a passion for quality and innovation, edward has blended traditional cheesemongering with modern technology to deliver curated cheese selections right to your doorstep. His approach not only simplifies the art of cheese tasting, but also connects a community of enthusiasts eager to explore new flavors.
Jay Greenwood:Today we'll learn about the inspiration behind the cheese geek, the challenges edward has overcome, his vision for the future of cheese retailing. So sit back and please enjoy my conversation with edward from the cheese geek. So welcome to the podcast, so glad to have you on and I wanted to jump in straight away and ask you about your time as a fund manager. I know when you left university, that's where you began your career and you said that you started from the bottom and worked your way up.
Edward Hancock:So I was wondering if there's any sort of skills or lessons you learned your time as a fund manager that you've now taken to entrepreneurship or things you just learned at your time then yeah, I definitely think there's quite a few things, and I suppose there's some general stuff and also some specific things, I think, generally speaking, I mean, I went into fund management, really working in a sector, in an area I knew very little about straight out of uni, bottom rung of the ladder, and essentially had to learn on the job. And essentially I had to learn on the job but quite quickly realised that it can be done Rather than, I guess, panicking. I don't have the right background, I don't have the right skill sets. I haven't studied specifically for this at uni. None of that really mattered too much um. What was much more important was just um being incredibly keen to learn, pick up as much as I could from the people around me and have a very clear idea of where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do.
Edward Hancock:Um, and I think that's almost exactly the same as um the kind of process I've been through at Cheese Geek, because you know, know, I've had no background in F&B, no background in cheese other than eating loads of it. You know, people often ask me like how did you know where to source the cheese? How did you know how to set up a business? How did you know to do any of these things? And the answer is I didn't, I just figured it out. So I think I think start starting at the bottom is actually really quite important. It's something that I've always done. So I've only ever had two jobs basically Straight out of uni finance back office, moving up to fund management, learn on the job. And the same with Cheese Geek, and both times, starting at the bottom, you really get to know every part of the business. So now, obviously, obviously I don't work operationally, I'm not in the fridge day to day, but I still know what that job entails and I still know what can go wrong and if people are having issues, I know why they're having issues and I can sort of empathize with it and it resonates with me. So I think that's probably the first thing.
Edward Hancock:As a general thing, I picked up um in my previous career and I think that just jump to the other side of it, like specifically, I mean there were two really really specific things that I um became very interested in and did a lot of work on when I was working in finance in that role, and it was psychology, investor psychology, and it was building algorithms.
Edward Hancock:And I think certainly on the more specific level, those two things are two things that have been massively utilized when I set up CheeseGeek. In terms of investor psychology versus consumer and brand psychology, they're kind of very similar, actually, uh, and then um, in terms of algorithms, how to allocate cheese versus how to pick up patterns in markets, so so I think that's like two opposite ends of the spectrum and there'll be loads more, but I think just to like tie up the answer. Really, I think you know you always, there's always things that are um, translatable, like always, even even if it might seem like you've gone from completely one end of the spectrum to the other, in terms of finance to cheese, which are obviously mental and no one's ever done that, or very few people. Um, there are lots of translatable skills. You just have to kind of dig a little bit deeper and be open-minded about it and I heard you actually on a previous uh conversation.
Jay Greenwood:You had to talk about the uh. I think you're just touching on there, the neuroscience of decision making, and I guess what is some like maybe one of the core lessons you've learned from sort of consumer decision making when it comes to sort of relating it back to a consumer brand? Is there any like core pieces or things that people should look out for or focus on at all?
Edward Hancock:Yeah, I mean, I think so, ultimately, you know when, when you're looking at, like, the neuroscience of decision making whether it's investing or whether it's buying a brand that you're familiar with making, whether it's investing or whether it's buying a brand that you're familiar with what you're really trying to do is you're trying to understand, um, the activations within certain parts of the brain.
Edward Hancock:So, uh, particularly, I did a lot of work on the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that sort of drives, impulse, um, decision making, and it's like an emotional part of the brain um, and ultimately, when you look at great brands, great brands are doing that. I mean, they're driving decisions based on emotion, and I think you know, look, that's not something that will necessarily surprise anyone, but I think it's very much central to what we try to do from day one is create emotion around our brands and create ways that people can latch onto us as representing what they want and the emotions they want to feel. And so, for us, cheese has always been about how it makes you feel rather than how it tastes, and I think that's a huge part of building Cheese Geek and what Cheese Geek kind of represents, and ultimately, that's what's going to allow you, particularly as a premium brand, to build a business that's commercially viable, that's going to convince people that you're creating value for them, even though obviously you're charging more than another product. It's that emotional connection.
Jay Greenwood:And we spoke there about previously, about sort of the having a clear idea of where you want to go to, and obviously you started in fund management. What time did entrepreneurship start to come into your head? Because for some people it's a calling like they really feel, like that's their mission to do. You know something next? Or for some people it's just unfulfillment, so they're looking for anything to do, sort of what was that? What speaks truer to you?
Edward Hancock:yeah, this is a really interesting question because, um, so I certainly never grew up thinking I want to be an entrepreneur at all. Um, you know, I went through a very traditional, like educational um route, which was go study, become like an accountant or a lawyer or a, you know, finance, whatever it might be, and that's like your path was very set out. Um, I didn't really. I wasn't around people that had become entrepreneurs and I wasn't around people that set their own businesses um, at all. So it wasn't anything that had been on my mind, um, but I think it was really a couple of things that drove me to do it. I I never set up this business because, um, I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I set up the business because I saw something that was so blindly obvious to me that needed to be addressed.
Edward Hancock:Um, and it it sort of kind of it was an itch that I just couldn't scratch. I've I've seen a lot of people talk about it when they say you know, if you've got this itch and it's still there, like a year after you first had it 18 months you probably need to do something about it. Like, we all get these little impulses to do something and it can be gone in a few weeks, whereas for me, this built up over time and it comes down to those two things again which are my fascination with psychology and brands and my love of cheese. And when I put those two things together, it was very, very clear to me that there was no business out there that was trying to build in this space. And I think the last bit I mean the last bit that pushed me over probably the edge to do it was I was at work and on my lunch break I just went to the bookshop and I was like leafing through some business books and I came across a book Where's my Cheese?
Edward Hancock:Which is not why I set up a cheese business, by the way, but it's this chip for people that know. It's about two mice and they're in a maze and one mouse is happy to eat all the cheese until it's finished and then he's like, oh god, I want no cheese left and the other mouse thinks, well, when this cheese runs out, we're gonna have a problem. So I need to start finding my new, new cheese, like now, and it kind of just really hit home with me that I didn't know if I wanted to be doing what I was doing for the rest of my life and I didn't want to wait until I was kind of forced to make a decision. So I think that was probably what made me decide that look, um, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go now. It's time.
Jay Greenwood:Time to do it you've spoken before about your decision making process, and I think I guess one story that really stood out for me is how you think about your decision making process is the fact that sort of one day, your mum looked outside her house and there was a fridge turning up. So how do you approach your decision making and what was that time, I guess, that pivotal moment, where you decided right, I'm gonna make this business happen, I'm gonna go do this yeah, I think.
Edward Hancock:I think decision making is a really interesting one and, and as a as a as a person, I I've always even before saying all this business I've been a very um consistent in my approach decision making, which is that I have a very clear process on how to make a decision. Um, it's quick and it's consistent, and then I make the decision, and that's it. What I found is the longer I dwell on it and the and then I make the decision, and that's it. What I found is the longer I dwell on it and the longer I keep going over the same questions and pros and cons, actually it just delays the decision and I get no better outcome at the end. So the fridge in my mum's driveway was, I guess, an example of that. Where I'd been through my process. I decided I needed to do it and I didn't want to create any new um blocks or obstacles to me getting on with it. And in that instance, a classic example and I think a lot of startup founders would probably find this is that you basically come to a decision based on your process, but the more you talk to people, the more chances you won't do it, because it's very likely people say, oh, if it could have been done, someone would have done it before you know. Oh, there's another, it's nothing new. There's other brands that are doing that. There's other products in that space. There are a million reasons why you shouldn't set up a business and the more people you talk to, the chances are you're going to get like bogged down by the reasons not to so.
Edward Hancock:My decision making process made decision get the fridge delivered to my mom's house before I've said anything to anyone. So it just turns up on a driveway. She's like what's the hell, what the hell's going on? And then I explained to her then, um, I guess it's kind of like that take action, apologize afterwards sort of approach which you know. In the end it's like it's ripping off the plaster, it's jumping in the deep end. All those things which I do you sometimes just need to do just to go. You just need to press the trigger, because it's always so easy just to procrastinate and find a reason not to. And actually the hardest part is probably that first step and once you, once you're off, it's uh, it's, it's all good. You know, it's like getting on the stage to public speak. It's always way worse. Before you step on, you just step on, you do it and you realize that it's actually not as scary as you thought it's going to be 100.
Jay Greenwood:I always think. Something that I always agree with is like before you always think your ideas are so valuable so you keep them to yourself, but you realize ultimately, once you've been involved in business and stuff, that it's just completely uh, action, the whole idea process just means nothing really I have so many great mates around me who have so many good ideas.
Edward Hancock:Honestly they the honestly we chat, whatever pub, whatever we're doing. People have so many good ideas, they're all over everywhere, um, but it doesn't really mean anything like um, you know, like on the flip side, you know there are great brands and businesses out there where the idea is just not anything anyone would have necessarily thought would be the thing, but they've just got on and executed it so well um, that they've made success out of something that's not new, that's competitive. You know that's kind of obvious on paper. And then you, then you see that and then you know, following that train further, the amount of times I've got a mate he'll say, oh, you know that brand, I had that idea, like I, I thought of that, like last year or five years ago I said they should do that and it it's like you didn't. So I mean, yeah, the greatest value is in execution, for sure.
Jay Greenwood:So yeah, and so we now have the sort of facilities to you know launch a potential choose business. So what happened? I think you built a website, and was it just you and you just packaging things up and sending them out. How did it work?
Edward Hancock:yeah. So the key thing for for me was like, look, how can we test this quickly, um, without me kind of, you know, going into financial bankruptcy? Let let's, you know, let let's give this a go. But you know, managed. So we set up a website, I think for the grand maybe 800 quid, a grand. Um, I I called you know amy, who's our, still our um brand director, um, to sort of say, I had I've got this idea. Um, she was like this sounds good, I can bring this to life. So we built the website.
Edward Hancock:Um, I googled, like where to order cheese, how to form a company, like bought a fridge, um, and so within about a week the website was set up. I mean, there was, there was a lot of planning, obviously, but when it came to like, execution, the website was set up in, you know, in relatively quick time. Uh, ordered cheese in and just waited to see if any orders would come in. Um, at that point I had a full-time job, so we were only dispatching once a week. Um, so I'd be packing boxes friday morning, they'd be shipping out on a friday afternoon for people on the weekend, um, and you know you, you know that that's. I guess that's another example where it's like you thought well, how are you going to do this a full-time job? Well, you just figure it out, you just shit. Once a week I was taking holiday to basically like every friday I'd just take holiday so I could do it, um, or sometimes I'd try and chop at 4 am and get to work on time at nine, um, so so it was just yeah, that that was it. It was a website. No, no ad spend.
Edward Hancock:Um, and just saw if people would find us. And, um, I still remember the first order came in for a three-month subscription, which back then was about 60 quid, which is unbelievable. Um, it was a lady in scotland. Um, I remember it so clearly. It was a. It was a, it was a gift for people that she'd been staying with. And I just thought how a have you found us? Because if you google cheese geek, we were like paid a to google. Uh, I was. How a have you found us? Because if you google cheese geek, we were like paid a to google. Uh, I was like a have you found us? And I was like b, oh gosh, and now I need to really figure this out because I've actually got an order. Um, so yeah, and then it just kind of like that the next week was 10 orders and 30, then 50, and then Christmas was huge, and so you go right, okay, we've got something.
Jay Greenwood:Got something going on here and going back to kind of what we were speaking about earlier on a similar theme, there's a quote that I really love, where it's like you can have the best products in the world, but if no one knows about it doesn't matter. So how are you driving awareness? Was it just organic that you were doing such a good job like? How did you get people to know about cheese geek?
Edward Hancock:yeah, I think, um, the the first beyond, like the whole friends and family tell everyone you know about us, like in terms of, like the proper uh approach. I think it's, um, it is so important those first hundred people, than the first 300 and 500 that you make them, um, like, absolute loyalists to your brand, because those people do a better job than anyone else. Especially when you've got low budget at the start, they'll do the best possible job of sharing your brand. So, um, our key focus then we had no real money, no google ad spend, nothing like that was how can we like absolutely give these people an experience that goes way beyond what they expected? And then, with the inserts that go in the box and and other bits and bobs, how can we encourage them to share and tell people about it?
Edward Hancock:The great thing about a product that's easy for gifting or or um is an obvious gift, is that obviously, you're then, uh, you know, speaking to two people the buyer and the recipient, and so it was just a case of like, how can we, how can we create, like, this tribe of initial subscribers and I mean we still have subscribers, many subscribers who ordered within the first few months of us launching the business, which is mental, because that product was once a week shipping.
Edward Hancock:The packaging was terrible. Well, I say terrible, I mean it was what you'd expect from a startup one weekend, packed on my mom's dining room table, cut by me, me wrapped by her, and those, so many of those subscribers are still with us and when you have people that are that passionate about your brand, they'll do an amazing job of spreading the word. So I think in the early stages, that's what's so important. It's's engaging with them, interacting with them, understanding how they're, how they're finding it. Can we improve things? You know, little surprise and delights, all these things that make them go share, share their brand. I think that's realistically. When you've got no budget, that's kind of what you have to do and it's probably the most powerful thing you can do in those early, early weeks and months.
Jay Greenwood:And how did you create that experience? Because you they're sort of building that loyalty, because you also have the online experience where they're buying it, but then you have the offline experience of them receiving it and having this package. How did you think about the whole experience and how did you craft it?
Edward Hancock:yeah. So I mean, I, I guess it's not, you know, a secret, in the sense that what we're trying to do is create something very special from the moment you land on the website to the moment you unbox your product, your cheese. So, you know, the website itself felt very different. It's probably why we had quite good early traction, because it was clearly something that wasn't really being offered. The idea of subscription, where everyone's subscription is unique and it's based on your preferences, is, you know, again, it's, it's something that's different and stands out, and I think, just the website journey, um, it was different, very, very differentiated tone of voice, colors, that kind of thing, imagery, um.
Edward Hancock:But then, you know, on top of that, at that time, if you ordered cheese from another business, it was really obvious that it was a high street business that was just packing cheese like as a side thing. So, you know, insulation didn't exist, not enough ice packs. The cheese would arrive like sweaty. And you know, whereas our view is we need to get this cheese to people absolutely perfectly, and if it's being delivered as a gift, it needs to feel like it's a gift, you need to feel like it's an unboxing experience, and then it has to be hyper personalized. So when you open it, there's a personal message, either from the gifty or from me personally, and there's loads of information about your cheese and and what to pair it with, and tasting notes, and it becomes this interactive thing.
Edward Hancock:So you thought you were just buying some cheese, but what you ended up doing was having this experience that was really really multi-dimensional, that you kind of now want to share with someone, because it's like you know, it's nice to share that, and so I think all of those things were hugely important for us that no one else had really thought about that kind of experience. Everyone else was just a case of like how do we get this cheese to you? We were trying to create a moment that was sort of memorable, that you'd want to share. So I think I think those are key and ultimately we were able to achieve that because of the text that we built and that was really from day one the differentiator, and that was really from day one the differentiator. It was you know how, at scale, can you personalize inserts and information and create that sort of opportunity to talk to someone one on one and directly?
Jay Greenwood:So, yeah, I mean all of those things contributed and played a huge part in that you have, the customer side is one bit, but the other bit is the supply side. So what was your sale? What was your pitch to these producers to get them to go with you? Was it just explaining the value add or was it you actually having to pitch you? What was the process like and how did you get it across the line?
Edward Hancock:yeah, cheese is an interesting one because, um and I can't speak for other industries, but I do feel that cheese is probably quite unique in the sense that you can't really source direct. So first of all, you have to go through a wholesaler initially. If you try and go direct, cheese makers will generally say well, we don't really know who you are, we don't know, we don't necessarily trust you to present our cheese in the perfect way. It's expensive for us to kind of dispatch to people that are lower volume. So you had to go through wholesalers initially, um, and so it, that was it. It was literally just a, an indirect relationship through a, through an intermediary wholesaler. It wasn't really until um, and so, just to add to that, the producers really probably wouldn't have known who we were at all. Um, so, other than me visiting them and saying, hey, this is what I'm up to, but we had no like transactional relationship, um, I think really what changed that was the pandemic. Um, because what happened during the pandemic was obviously online, went crazy, and suddenly we were in a position to take a whole bunch of cheese that wasn't uh, suddenly didn't have a home. And that's really when, um, we got the volumes to a point where producers wanted to speak to us directly and that that enabled us to really build the relationship even even closer. I, I mean, I spend a lot of my time visiting producers, understanding their product, understanding how it's made, the story behind it, because obviously we share that story, and so I think, um, that was a huge sort of transition for the business when we were able to start working directly with our producers. It really added a huge amount of, um, I guess, both credibility, but also um, authenticity, um, to what we were doing.
Edward Hancock:It's kind of like I fake it till you make it the first year or so. You're just you're telling the stories, but you're kind of like not really sourcing direct, but since, like 2020, it's all been direct. And it's difficult though. It's difficult because the cheese industry is really awkward, because clearly, production needs to happen way in advance anywhere from like six weeks to one year in advance. So you're generally having to place orders way ahead of when you need the cheese. And so there's a lot on trust because, in theory, you could turn around a week before delivery and say, oh, we actually don't need it because our forecasts were wrong. So it's all. It's a relationship based face to face. Certainly when you get to our scale, um, it's relationships are really, really important and that trust, that level of trust. So, uh, it's taken time to build that, but it's a barrier to entry as well you spoke about lockdown.
Jay Greenwood:There I want to talk about sort of the lockdown effect, because I imagine that was a real moment, a real turning moment for the business, where things really did hockey stick. And I'm curious as well, because there must have been a capital requirement to sort of invest in the business to meet that increased demand. So was that a decision process for you? We were like, oh, I'm gonna have to double down again on my investment to really expand this. What was that process and time like for you?
Edward Hancock:I guess that, first of all, that process was hectic because everything was happening like minute to minute rather than day to day, a week to week or month to month. So, from 2017 launching, we were able to plan like strategically way in advance, as you probably should. We were on a good trajectory. We were pretty much getting close to profitability. Then the pandemic hit and, like you said, suddenly we had to scale. Then the pandemic hit and, like you said, suddenly we had to scale.
Edward Hancock:Um, ultimately, we had two decisions you either just don't scale and you just close orders and you just don't benefit from that huge increase in demand, or or you scale like fast, and we decided to scale fast. It required, yeah, further investment. It took us further away from our goal of profitability. Actually, um, just because the amount of fixed investment that we needed uh, premises, staff, processes, machinery, the whole, the whole thing because we do all of our own. Um, you know, operationally it's all in-house, so we can't, we can't outsource anything.
Edward Hancock:So, um, that was a huge growth pain and, on the surface of it, it was amazing. Revenue was six, seven times higher. The business scaled incredibly quickly, but, on the flip side, it meant that we, like I said, we moved a lot further away from our kind of short term or trajectory which we've been moving towards, which is profitability, which we'd been moving towards, which was profitability, um and uh, and then clearly, like after the pandemic, things tailed off and projections weren't what everyone thought. So, uh, it was, it was, yeah, it was a crazy, a crazy time. Um and um. I think that you know, ultimately we're having to make decisions, probably even faster than I was comfortable with um, just out of necessity, um, but you know, you just, yeah, you just had to play what was in front of you, I guess.
Jay Greenwood:And your business has a mix of uh um subscriptions and there's gifting and there's people just purchasing. How have you found sort of getting people from that one-time purchase to a subscription base? Is there any like tricks, any lessons you've learned or anything to move the needle for people to actually turn those one-time purchase into like long-term subscribers?
Edward Hancock:Yeah, I think the first thing is you can spend a lot of money trying to turn people too quickly. Turn people too quickly. I think from our perspective, in our example, we learned pretty quickly that trying to advertise, get people onto subscription if they've not come across us or come across us only once or twice, is really really difficult. What's much easier is to get someone purchasing for themselves in any sense. So if you look at our cohorts and our kind of like customer journeys, you can basically split it into people who buy as a gift, people who buy for themselves, people who buy as a gift really difficult to get them to become a subscriber, so they go down a different route, separating out people that buy for themselves. We know that if people buy one to two products for themselves, they then become, um, you know, very um far more likely to become a subscriber. So it's targeting those people at the right time and I think that's a huge trial and error thing. That kind of takes time and takes some money, um, but it's it's a case of testing a lot, testing quickly and learning quickly. Ultimately, you try and get someone on subscriber too early, before they come for your brand. It's like you're throwing money at the wall. But you have someone that's received two products. They bought them for themselves. You can see, oh look, the first time they bought an entry-level product minimum financial commitment probably used a discount. Second time, oh look, the first time they bought an entry-level product minimum financial commitment probably used a discount. Second time, oh look, they've come back and they bought something a little bit more expensive. They're kind of right, these guys are legit, it's not dodgy. I'm now in for like 70, 80 quid in total. That's your person. That now you can go after and feel like you're going to get relatively good CPAs on those people and it's just sticking really rigidly.
Edward Hancock:Rigidly to that because you know we've spoken to like so many agencies. You speak to people that go look, we could scale your spend, we could get you more subscribers, and it's. I guess in the end you start to realize that you kind of know you, you kind of know how your customers work better than most other people and it's just being disciplined um with that. And you know we can communicate with people both digitally and in the insert as well. I mean, you know, like I said, these inserts are automatically generated.
Edward Hancock:We know every order people have ever placed and and kind of the trend in terms of how frequently they order. And so, using the data, like you, just you've got to just really use that data to drive where you're, where you're kind of spending that money in terms of getting people onto subscription, because ultimately that's where you want to get people right. I mean, you know our um lifetime value on a subscriber is probably about two and a half times what it is on a, on someone that's buying products but not subscribing. So and we know that once they're on as a subscriber they're very sticky. They generally they'll get six boxes at least they'll be with you for over a year.
Jay Greenwood:So yeah, and in 2022 you appeared on Dragon's Den and I wanted to focus on one bit. We said that you invested I think it was like 700 or 720 000 pounds of your own money in that. So I'm curious, like, what were the big expenses that you sort of incurred? And also, is there anything you look back on and think, oh, maybe I shouldn't spend money on that? Or, on the opposite side, you thought, oh, I actually should have doubled down on the investment on this? Just reflecting back on the whole thing, is there anything maybe where you've allocated those funds differently?
Edward Hancock:yeah, definitely. I mean, I used to have this mindset that, if you know, I used to have this mindset that, um, you know, if I'm looking at a, if I'm looking at entrepreneur or someone that's set up a business that hasn't worked, that's like a, that's like a black mark or red flag, whereas now that I've been through it, I see that as like massive, like almost like a plus, like, obviously given other things, but the lessons you learn when you've been through the process once or twice are, like, absolutely invaluable. So, from my perspective, obviously this is the first business I've ever set up and, to answer your question, like a hundred percent, there's been things that you know of that. Of that money, probably half was just spent on basically mistakes or like misallocation, because I didn't, I didn't, um, not that I didn't think about it and not that I didn't have the right decision making process, but I just, with hindsight, I not that I didn't have the right decision-making process, but I, just, with hindsight, I can now see that was not the right decision.
Edward Hancock:The biggest one would be the app. We invested a lot of money in an app and it was just too early for us to be investing in that. It was too early, it was too expensive and what we hadn't really factored in was how expensive it would be to service like service and maintenance the app once it was up and running. Um, you know, there's things out there that don't give you an idea, but the reality of it was, it was it was a huge, like much bigger financial, you know, requirement um, once it'd been launched and we thought, and also I mean we thought it was going to take nine months to get the app up and running and in the end it took three years and three different developers. So that was the biggest one. That was the biggest, most obvious one, and the reality is as well is that, you know, whilst an app would have been nice, a lot of things we're trying to achieve in the app can be achieved without an app, and there are a lot of other steps and stages that we really needed to go through before getting to that point. So I think that was probably the biggest one and that was a very large proportion um of that investment um. I think the other one is less of a um. It's not so much an error or mistake or a misallocation, but just more in terms of where that money went, being very ambitious.
Edward Hancock:We always wanted to be able to scale the business, and what we've always done is probably been two to three steps ahead of where we are right now, and what that obviously means is that we've always got slightly more space than we need. We've always got slightly more capability than we need, because we've always been going for growth. We've always been chasing growth. Our first few investors that came on board, you know it was at a time where growth was really what everyone was thinking about, what everyone was wanting to see, and you know that was the question like how fast are we growing? How fast are we going to grow next year? And so I think when you're trying to grow that fast in a business where you have to do everything yourself you can't outsource this stuff You're probably always, like, in terms of your fixed costs, a bit ahead of what's actually um being sold, and I think that's kind of um.
Edward Hancock:You know, in many ways, that flipped post pandemic, when shareholders, investors, stop asking about growth and they start asking about well, hang on, when are we going to be profitable? And you're kind of thinking, oh, but I thought it was all about growth. And so it's really only the last 18 months where that focus has changed. And so I think you know look to answer your original question there was a lot of money that was spent chasing growth and there was a lot of money that was spent on things that were probably too early for the business. And if I look at the business now and over the last 18 months, um, it, it, it takes and would take a lot less to um get us to where we want to be, um, by removing a couple of those things and from the den you got an investor, steven barlett, on board, and he's known for marketing and brand.
Jay Greenwood:Is there anything, any particular lessons you've taken from him, any sort of levers that he's pulled, or particular lessons you've learned from what he does and how he operates?
Edward Hancock:Yeah, I mean there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff in there. I think one of the things that he talks about a lot and we've spoken about what we've talked is um, you know, being comfortable um failing quickly and learning fast. Um, I kind of alluded to that earlier. Um, it's. It's that kind of mindset of going back to what I was also saying earlier about having the right processes in making decisions. If you've got the right process to make decisions, then you can feel comfort in making those decisions quickly. So I think that's a big one.
Edward Hancock:I think he's obviously offered a lot of advice in terms of how he approaches leveraging social media, how he approaches, you know, marketing when you don't necessarily have a massive, massive budget to do so. Um, there's lots of hacks that you know. He's been um very helpful with um. So I mean I think you know those are probably the key, the key areas that I've kind of um tried to learn from him, and I guess you know the other thing is, I mean, he's got an insane work ethic. So I think just things like that, even just small things like that having someone that you can see what they're achieving and you can see the work ethic and how they manage their time, and also understanding limitations on how many hours there are on the day and how to allocate that time efficiently. Uh is another really big one and there's a lot of stuff in there as well, like you know, meetings or not meetings and um, you know um tips like that.
Jay Greenwood:It's been quite valuable, yeah and what's all about saying through now. There's been a big launch recently and interesting we're doing my research came across, I think, an interview in like 2022, where retail was not an immediate future, but it was a dream of yours. So how did Sainsbury's come around? And it was anything you had to change to sort of get ready for Sainsbury's and make that happen yeah, yeah.
Edward Hancock:So so the first part I guess the first part of this question it comes down to brand again, because so you know, um, when you really really care and you're consistent about your brand and, like I said earlier, you kind of foster those early uptakers and you get them really enfranchised, um, and you keep showing up, whether that's like you know podcast shows, you're consistent with how you present the brand. All of these things over time create opportunities. And the Sainsbury's opportunity came about because their director of dairy was a Cheese Geek customer and you know, so you know it's, since the Sainsbury's thing announcement, I've had a lot of actual people get in touch and they're like oh, you know, so you know it's. Um, since the Sainsbury's thing announcement, I've had a lot of actually people get in touch and they're like, oh, you know, we'd love to know who. Like how you reached out the presentation you put together, like how you pitched the deck, you know, did you have to, like, go turn up at their HQ? And like, camp outside and these hugely elaborate, you know and.
Edward Hancock:I've read other brands as well talk about their elaborate ways of courting buyers. The reality is, in our case, that it came to us, and that's actually been the case for a few other opportunities that we had. They've actually come to us and that is purely down to consistently and just being like persistent and relentless with how we speak, how we present our brand and how we differentiate ourselves, so that really what we've built is a situation where, if you um have an interaction with cheese whether that's as a retail buyer, whether it's a deli or a farm shop, or whether you know even things like the crosstown Bakery Partnership where they wanted to launch a savory donut with cheese you want your brand. Our brand is now, generally speaking, where people will go if they want to activate using cheese or with cheese or partnering with a cheese business. We tend to be the brand that's the one that they think of. So I guess that's not a popular mind self or kind of approach in terms of it's not short and quick and like right, what's the deck, what's the pitch, how do I sell it? It's more like, over time, that you will get the reward for building, building out a brand, um, and that was a great.
Edward Hancock:The Sainsbury's one was a great example of that in terms of, um, how we've had to adapt. Yeah, I mean, mean I guess it comes down slightly again to um punching above our weight in terms of being one to two steps ahead. And, um, I guess you can be blindly ambitious where it's kind of reckless and you can be considered in your ambition and have a belief, that is, we are going to get what we need to. And if we do get where we need to, we're going to need to be ready. So we've been ready for Sainsbury's, like you know, um, not, I mean, we've had to, like, hire people quick, but in terms of space and capability, we've been ready for it. You know we had a long-term ambition to get into retail and so we didn't want to um, get to a point where it happened and then we were like, oh, we can't do it. So, um, we, we we'd been prepared for a long, a long amount of time and I think I think the other part to that is um, and it's actually probably one of the most valuable mindsets that I've sort of realized in my time running this business is a mindset of problem solving and kind of really enjoying problem solving. You know, when the Sainsbury's opportunities came around, the numbers were big. There's also some more stuff that's in the pipeline. That's probably even bigger and I think probably what separates a successful business or an entrepreneur.
Edward Hancock:If I had to actually synthesize it down into one thing, I might even say this is the one thing, which is that you have a huge problem and I'm excited to solve that problem. My my first thought is this is cool, because this problem is probably going to stop everyone else. Um, so if we can solve this problem, that that's what makes us stand out. That's how. That, that's what gets us that big step further towards our goal.
Edward Hancock:I had a review with our first employee, official employee, like last week or a few weeks ago, and she said the biggest thing I've learned from you and Rich at the business is that everything's achievable Like we have never with the pandemic, we've had the war, prices going up 20%, we've had a ton of stuff thrown at us and we've always found a way because we've always taken that positive mindset from the first moment of we can solve this, how do we do it? And getting in the right mindset to solve it. So she said that's the biggest thing she's picked up and you can tell she now doesn't freak out when we have a big challenge. She goes right, how do we? How do we sort it out? How do we unpack it? How do we get it done? So I think that's been a huge thing.
Edward Hancock:When it comes to the sainsbury's thing as well as um, right, this is a lot of cheese. So, um, you can either go, can't be done, sorry. But then you kind of think, well, why are we here? That makes us no different than everyone else. Or you say, right, that's a hell of a lot of cheese. How do we figure it out?
Jay Greenwood:amazing. I want to finish on one final question, and we've obviously been talking about, uh, sainsbury's, and there was a moment where you announced it on um linkedin. I want to paraphrase a little bit bit. Where you said you're talking about your mom, said she had dragged into this when she was just retired in 2017, cutting cheese with me at 4 am in the morning in her utility room, dispatching from her dining room table. How smelled of cheese a lot. This one's for you, mom. Those 4 am starts led us to here. Hope you're as proud as I am. And uh, yeah, I guess you know I think I read the things that all she wanted for you was a stable career in finance, and so what was it? How much, how much help has it been to have someone from there from the very beginning, supporting you when you decided to just go on this journey?
Edward Hancock:it's yeah, it's massively important. It's massively important because, um, you know it's a case of like I. You know, like I said right at the start, the more people you talk to, the more you'll be deterred from doing what you want to do. I think what's been great about you know, the example of my mom and and, and you know, certain other people, is that it's been obvious they're concerned about you know what I've done. Like it's I had a stable job and a, you know, a good income and a great career and I was really achieving the things I wanted to achieve. And it seems like mental on the outside as to why I would give that up, but I think, having the support nevertheless of going right. I kind of made my point but if you're going to crack on, then I'm just going to get behind it. I guess it's like Gareth Southgate at the Euros right, he's going to crack on with a system. Probably he's probably not going to change things. So we just got to get behind it and just hope it works out. And I think that level of support has been absolutely crucial. And also, you know, it's those people like her, who have been there from the start, who have seen how far we've come.
Edward Hancock:Sometimes you need that reminder that you have come a long way, and I think, as an entrepreneur as well, it can be lonely, it can be very difficult, it can sometimes feel like you're failing or it can feel like you're overwhelmed, and I think we're generally pretty bad at taking a step back sometimes and saying do you know what we've? We've achieved a hell of a lot of stuff like we've. We've we've done really, really well, and I'm not great at that, and so I think sometimes in that post and what I was kind of talking about, there was just a moment to say look, you know, um, let's just take a moment to look at where we've come from, how it all started, and it's been a crazy journey. We've done pretty well, so, um, I think that's that's kind of a really important uh, you know, thing to do reflect sometimes amazing.
Jay Greenwood:I think that's the perfect place to wrap up the interview and I want to say one how inspirational I find you, so how much everyone else is going to find you, and I thank you so much for all the effort you make and also your frameworks thinking about entrepreneurship. I think there's so many valuable lessons in there, so I just want to thank you for coming on to share them with us yeah, thanks a lot for having me.
Intro:Jay, really enjoyed chatting as always, guys, thank you so much for listening, really appreciate the support and if you guys like it and you're enjoying what you're listening to, please like and subscribe and write a review. We'd really appreciate it Again. We'll be back doing this weekly and, yeah, if you want to know more about starting a food business, head to wwwjgreenwoodcom. But, guys, as always, thank you and be great.